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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane.

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Speaker 1: Never told your protection of I Heart Radio. So Samantha,

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Speaker 1: my question for you is twofold today. Yes, first, did

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Speaker 1: you ever write for a newspaper, perhaps at your school?

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Speaker 1: And secondly, have you ever been featured in a newspaper?

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Speaker 1: So I feel like these questions call out how boring

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Speaker 1: I am. I just want to go ahead and put

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Speaker 1: that out there because my other is no, I have

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Speaker 1: never written for a newspaper. That's never been a thing

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Speaker 1: that I've ever wanted to do. Journalism was not my thing. Surprisingly,

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Speaker 1: not surprisingly, I think that's true. So no, I have

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Speaker 1: not written. I think I definitely did like the journal stuff.

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Speaker 1: So when we really had the yearly poetry stuff or

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Speaker 1: any of that, I did literaturely related but not necessarily

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Speaker 1: journalism related. So thank you for calling out my boring one.

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Speaker 1: I did get featured a few times, the one Asian

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Speaker 1: girl in a small town gets your feature. Before I

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Speaker 1: even came into the US, they had my picture up.

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Speaker 1: They had kind of a birth announcement except for it's

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Speaker 1: an adoption announcement, um, and thether just got that clip

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Speaker 1: as well. Anytime the school does anything I would be featured.

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Speaker 1: Turned out, I think when I went on my mission

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Speaker 1: trip for the year, I got featured. But yeah, those

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Speaker 1: are the times. Well, actually, I feel like this happens

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Speaker 1: to us a lot because we are from very small towns,

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Speaker 1: so we have similar experiences in that way, because I

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Speaker 1: too was often featured I won't say often, but to

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Speaker 1: me too many times to be featured for pretty boring

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Speaker 1: things in the newspapers. So I was in there once

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Speaker 1: because I want an Easter egg hunt, Oh I want.

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Speaker 1: I was very very competitive, And then I was featured

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Speaker 1: for funny things like actually it's not really funny, but

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Speaker 1: it's funny to me. But like when I got swine flu,

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Speaker 1: they wrote an article about it and they had my

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Speaker 1: picture and I was like, I think this is illegal,

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Speaker 1: but anyway, And then when I went to when I

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Speaker 1: got a job at a house to works, actually it

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Speaker 1: was during the recession and people were having a lot

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Speaker 1: of trouble finding jobs, and they reached out to me

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Speaker 1: and they interviewed me for that, and it was embarrassing

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Speaker 1: because you know, sometimes you really are just in the

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Speaker 1: right place at the right time. There's no advice you

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Speaker 1: can really give. Like my story doesn't apply to most people,

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Speaker 1: if that makes sense. Like it was just kind of

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Speaker 1: a random event, but they did a whole article on that,

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Speaker 1: and that was embarrassed. And then I wanted I wanted

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Speaker 1: to award in high school Star Student Award and they

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Speaker 1: did an interview with me and that My friends still

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Speaker 1: make fun of me with that interview because I was

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Speaker 1: so like embarrassed and frazzled. They it was embarrassing. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know what I will say, My partner just got

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Speaker 1: a phone call from the news broadcast. They're doing a

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Speaker 1: whole thing about the Wall Street butts stuff and he's

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Speaker 1: kind of gotten some Reddit fame. Yeah, very excited about

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Speaker 1: this as it should be. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah. My

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Speaker 1: my mom's like the sweetest person. And I was recently

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Speaker 1: like mentioned like literally in one short sentence in Atlanta

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Speaker 1: magazine and she subscribed to Atlanta Magazine. Well you were

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Speaker 1: thinking not too long ago you and Lauren for Saver.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, but it was really short and she subscribed

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Speaker 1: like a year. But it's very very sweet of her.

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Speaker 1: And I did work for the high school newspaper a

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Speaker 1: little bit and that was a fun that was a

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Speaker 1: fun project that I enjoyed. But for today's classic, we

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Speaker 1: wanted to talk about somebody who's famous in this world

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Speaker 1: of press, the first Lady of the Black Press, and

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Speaker 1: we hope that you enjoy this classic episode. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: Stuff Mom Never told you from how stupp works dot com. Hello,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline,

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Speaker 1: and today we're talking about the first Lady of the

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Speaker 1: Black Press, Ethel Payne. And Caroline. This was personally such

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Speaker 1: a fascinating and also at times horrifying and disconcerting topic

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Speaker 1: to dig into, partially because you and I were journalism

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Speaker 1: majors in college. That's how we met, but not surprisingly,

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Speaker 1: considering all the factors we're going to talk about in

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Speaker 1: today's episode, we never heard the name Ethel Payne in

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Speaker 1: any of our j school classes. Yeah, because by and large,

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Speaker 1: the Black press as a whole was pretty much invisible

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Speaker 1: to white readership. So it really ran parallel to the

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Speaker 1: white press, starting really before the Civil War and petering

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Speaker 1: out in its strength and numbers in the mid sixties

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Speaker 1: and seventies. And as you said, Caroline, it was invisible

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Speaker 1: to the white population back then. But in a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways too, that's still the case today in terms

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Speaker 1: of the history and influence of the Black press. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was so influential in the civil rights movement even happening,

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Speaker 1: and also in politically enfranchising black communities around the nation

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Speaker 1: and really making them uh political force. And Ethel Payne

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Speaker 1: is one of the shining stars who comes in toward

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Speaker 1: the end of the Black press is sort of industrial influence.

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Speaker 1: And when she died, just to give you listeners an

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Speaker 1: idea of how influential she was, but at the same time,

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Speaker 1: how much like racism in the United States was so

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Speaker 1: overwhelmingly powerful in the sense of holding people back as well.

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Speaker 1: When she died, a Washington Post editorial noted, had Ethel

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Speaker 1: Payne not been black, she certainly would have been one

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Speaker 1: of the most recognized journalists in American society. Oh, without

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Speaker 1: a doubt. I mean this this woman was amazing. She

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Speaker 1: is amazing, and her legacy is incredible. But the thing

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Speaker 1: is so few people just in mainstream society know about

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Speaker 1: her and the incredible influence she had over the civil

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Speaker 1: rights movement. Yeah, and so in today's podcast, we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about Ethel pain, of course, but first we

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Speaker 1: want to lay some groundwork to position her within this

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Speaker 1: history of the black press in the United States and

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Speaker 1: focusing in on the women who helped build that. And

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Speaker 1: as we're going through this, I think it's important to

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Speaker 1: keep in mind all of the social movements that were

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Speaker 1: happening and being promoted within these newspapers as well. And

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about suffrage and when leading up to civil

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Speaker 1: rights and like all of all these political issues that

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Speaker 1: we're still talking about so much even today with the

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Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter movement um, and how these black presses

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Speaker 1: were so crucial for enfranchising this people who were otherwise

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Speaker 1: just cut off in very literal ways that we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about in terms of the media, because it's

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Speaker 1: not like the white press was going to be covered

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Speaker 1: civil rights. It really took people like Ethel Payne pushing

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Speaker 1: to get this stuff covered. So let's start in seven.

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Speaker 1: This is the same year that slavery was abolished in

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Speaker 1: New York State, and you have two freed black men,

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Speaker 1: John Russworm and Samuel Cornish who launched the weekly paper,

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Speaker 1: Freedom's Journal, And this is the first black owned and

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Speaker 1: operated paper in the United States, and it was started.

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Speaker 1: The motivation behind it, it was started to counter the

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Speaker 1: racism of the mainstream press, and Freedom's Journal was the

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Speaker 1: paper of record for the three hundred thousand free blacks

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Speaker 1: living in the North and an advocated abolition, anti lynching,

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Speaker 1: voting rights, political rights, and the possibility of African repatriation

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Speaker 1: as well. So they're talking about all of these issues,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's notable too that it's the paper of

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Speaker 1: record because for much of obviously the you know, the

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Speaker 1: nineteenth and twentieth centuries, white papers wouldn't even cover black obituaries, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that that's a huge issue that you see mentioned

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Speaker 1: again and again when you read about the black press

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Speaker 1: and and racism of this era, that the bread and

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Speaker 1: butter of newspapers is essentially the ads, and that includes obituaries.

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Speaker 1: You have to pay to put your obituary in the paper,

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Speaker 1: and so you've got the obituaries and classified and just

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Speaker 1: regular advertisements of black families and and wedding announcements and

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Speaker 1: and all sorts of things like that that white papers

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Speaker 1: just wouldn't run. And you have black newspapers who are

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Speaker 1: not only delivering the news to their communities, but also

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Speaker 1: serving as a way to deliver that information as well.

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Speaker 1: So jumping back into our timeline if we hoped to

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Speaker 1: eight fifty two. The Fugitive Slave Acts were past a

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Speaker 1: couple of years prior in the United States, and with

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Speaker 1: the Fugitive Slave Acts, it became legal for freed slaves

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Speaker 1: or escaped slaves to be arrested if they cross state

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Speaker 1: lines and sent without any kind of questioning whatsoever back

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Speaker 1: to slave owners. So in eighteen fifty two, Maryanne Shad Carrie,

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Speaker 1: who had emigrated to Canada because of the Fugitive Slave Acts,

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Speaker 1: became a spokesperson and editor of the pro immigration Provincial Freeman,

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Speaker 1: encouraging other African Americans to high tail it up north. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and just briefly, Marianne Shad Carry, if you're not familiar

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Speaker 1: with her, is an incredible person. She was the first

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Speaker 1: woman at Howard University Law School, but she couldn't graduate

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Speaker 1: because Washington d c. Did not admit women to the bar,

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Speaker 1: so she had to go back ten years later and

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Speaker 1: get her degree at the age of sixty. So just

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Speaker 1: keep that in mind. She's an impressive lady. She was

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Speaker 1: also a lady ahead of her time. I mean she

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Speaker 1: argued for suffrage rights under the Fourteenth Amendment and linked

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Speaker 1: the importance of women's suffrage to female labor and entrepreneurship. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and it's with issues like that, the female

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Speaker 1: labor and entrepreneurship where we start to see how white

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Speaker 1: suffrage and all of those conversations that we've had around

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Speaker 1: that in past episodes overlooks issues relevant to women of color,

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Speaker 1: because labor is huge for women of color and is

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Speaker 1: a bigger issue than it is for often wider, wealthier

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Speaker 1: women involved in the suffrage movement. But when we get

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Speaker 1: to eighteen sixty, at the start of the Civil War,

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Speaker 1: they were already more than forty black owned newspapers throughout

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Speaker 1: the United States, and thirty years later, in eighteen ninety

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Speaker 1: suffrage and abolition leader Josephine st. Pierre Ruffin joins those ranks.

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Speaker 1: She launches the Women's Era, which is the first newspaper

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Speaker 1: published and written by and four black women, and four

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Speaker 1: years later in eighteen ninety four, by the way, Ruffin

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Speaker 1: would go on to organize the Women's Era Club, which

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Speaker 1: was a group specifically meant to advocate on behalf of

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Speaker 1: black women and to offer a little broader context to

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Speaker 1: the importance of that this was happening post suffrage movement

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Speaker 1: schism after black men were enfranchised and given the right

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Speaker 1: to vote, but female suffrage was not granted. So you

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Speaker 1: have that split where Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Katie

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Speaker 1: Stanton start to align themselves with the more racist supporters

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Speaker 1: who are not so keen on integrating women of color

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Speaker 1: in their cause, and then you have in response, women

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Speaker 1: like Josephine St. Pierre Ruffin and others starting the Women's

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Speaker 1: the Black Women's Club movement, organizing within their communities for

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Speaker 1: community uplift, basically saying, listen, if you if you all,

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Speaker 1: y'all are going to help us, We're gonna help ourselves.

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Speaker 1: We've been doing this. And someone else who was highly

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Speaker 1: instrumental in that movement was Ida be for Badass Wells,

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Speaker 1: who was best known as an anti lynching journalist um In.

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Speaker 1: She kicked off her anti lynching campaign after her paper,

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Speaker 1: The Memphis Free Speech closed following a white mob vandalizing

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Speaker 1: it in retaliation for an article that she wrote denouncing

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Speaker 1: the lynching of three black Memphis men, and she and

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Speaker 1: Josephine St. Pierre Ruffin would later come together through the

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Speaker 1: Women's Club movement. Because Ida B. Wells would like go

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Speaker 1: around and visit all these women's clubs and help start them,

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Speaker 1: and they would later help form a larger suffrage organization

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Speaker 1: focus solely on women of color. And in nineteen o five,

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Speaker 1: we get a newspaper that we will revisit more a

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Speaker 1: little bit later, but we get the Chicago Defender, and

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Speaker 1: it really urged blacks in the South to move of

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Speaker 1: north as part of what's called the Great Migration, and

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Speaker 1: it was massively influential in the Civil rights movement. So

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Speaker 1: then from nineteen twelve to nineteen fifty one, a woman

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Speaker 1: named CHARLOTTEA. Bass serves as the publisher of the California Eagle, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, it was formerly known as the Owl.

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Speaker 1: And why would you change the name of a newspaper

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Speaker 1: from the Owl to a California Eagle. I'm just saying

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Speaker 1: the owl. That's cool, that's a I guess I like owls. Well, owls.

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Speaker 1: Owls can turn their heads really far and see things,

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Speaker 1: which is great. And but eagles are like, oh, we're

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Speaker 1: I'm an aggressive eagle. I've got my talent is going

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Speaker 1: to rip up this newspaper. See I don't, it's not

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Speaker 1: meshing in my brain. Um. But back to Bass, she

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Speaker 1: used the paper as a platform to denounce racist imagery

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Speaker 1: in the media. She particularly attacked birth of a Nation.

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Speaker 1: They also attacked issues that sound very familiar today, police brutality,

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Speaker 1: discriminatory high firing practices, housing discrimination, even in the phase

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Speaker 1: of death threats, and FBI surveillance. Yeah, I mean you

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Speaker 1: could be talking about the Black Lives Matter movement in

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Speaker 1: that It's absolutely still relevant. But fun fact. Uh. In

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty two, so the year after she stepped down

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Speaker 1: as publisher of The Eagle, she became the first African

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Speaker 1: American woman to run for national office as the vice

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Speaker 1: presidential candidate on the Progressive Party ticket. And I also

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Speaker 1: wanted to mention how in black paper the Chicago B

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Speaker 1: was started and it was on staffed by women. I

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Speaker 1: don't have any deeper information on that, but I saw

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Speaker 1: that and was like, oh, we should mention that right

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Speaker 1: on Chicago B. Now one of our really smart listeners

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Speaker 1: is going to write in I predict and tell us

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Speaker 1: about the Chicago B. And I'm already looking forward to

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Speaker 1: reading that letter in our listener mail segment in the future.

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Speaker 1: Um And just three years later, in the Atlanta Daily

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Speaker 1: World becomes the most successful black paper in the country,

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Speaker 1: and it's the only one to publish daily instead of weekly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the weekly publication of most of these black newspapers

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Speaker 1: is going to come back into play when we move

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Speaker 1: into talking about the Washington Press Corps. But we want

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Speaker 1: to re emphasize to why these papers mattered so much.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we talked about how the white press just

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Speaker 1: completely disregarded Black communities, obviously perpetuating racist myths about the

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Speaker 1: black communities, um even refusing again to publish obituaries. But

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Speaker 1: the thing was this, these were such crucial resources sharing

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Speaker 1: uplifting stories about the black community and emerging stars like

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Speaker 1: Lena horne Um. They also pointed readers to employers who

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Speaker 1: didn't discriminate. It engaged these communities politically and expose them

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Speaker 1: to the writing of leading intellects like Linkston, Hughes, Marcus Garvey,

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Speaker 1: and Ernil Hurston. And there's been scholarship on how the

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Speaker 1: Black press in that way, speaking of like Links and Hughes,

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Speaker 1: Ernel Hurston laid the groundwork for the Harlem Renaissance as well. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And as you might imagine, when you provide a community

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Speaker 1: with resources that they need and enjoy, that can translate

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Speaker 1: into big business for the publishers who are running those papers.

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Speaker 1: For instance, Chicago Defenders publisher Robert s Abbott became one

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Speaker 1: of America's first black millionaires. So by the time we

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Speaker 1: get to the World War two era, the black press

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Speaker 1: is up and running. It is powerful within these black communities,

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Speaker 1: but it's still operating separately from the quote unquote mainstream

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Speaker 1: read white media. And that was the case even in

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Speaker 1: the heart of Washington. Yeah, it's crazy, although not terribly

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Speaker 1: surprising to read about how even in the press core

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Speaker 1: like of the White House Press Core or the Capital

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Speaker 1: Press Corps, black reporters faced not even discrimination, yes, discrimination,

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Speaker 1: but they just were barred from entry and participation. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The white White House and congressional reporters had very little

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Speaker 1: interest in inviting their black peers into the conversations that

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Speaker 1: were happening. I mean, they just weren't prioritizing any type

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Speaker 1: of civil rights issues whatsoever. Um, the local black papers

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Speaker 1: were basically forced to rely on two wire services, the

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Speaker 1: Associated Negro Press and the National Negro Publishers Association. But

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Speaker 1: for a lot of other information they sort of had

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Speaker 1: to get it almost second hand. A lot of black

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Speaker 1: papers would get their news from white newspapers and then

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Speaker 1: spin it to then be relevant to their audiences. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, because this is even before obviously the civil

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Speaker 1: it's really starts picking up. I mean, but there were

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Speaker 1: new Deal policies happening that they were otherwise uninformed about,

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Speaker 1: like any any political development, imagine not having access to

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Speaker 1: that information. We have it so instantaneously now thanks to Twitter.

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Speaker 1: But in this era, this entire community was at least

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Speaker 1: intentionally like and strategically cut off. And we should say

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Speaker 1: too that this background info is coming from a book

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Speaker 1: reporting from Washington, a History on the Washington Press Corps.

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Speaker 1: And here's the thing. The White House Correspondence Association, you know,

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Speaker 1: that group that throws those hilarious dinners every year, um it,

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Speaker 1: and the presidential and congressional press conferences it controlled remained

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Speaker 1: all white until nineteen But that was only because FDRs

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Speaker 1: Press secretary need a black policeman and in the groin,

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Speaker 1: and because of the fallout with that, FDR was like, okay, okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: we gotta we gotta open things up a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's integrate. So it was the press, not the politicians,

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Speaker 1: keeping members of the black press out of presidential and

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Speaker 1: congressional press conferences, and along those same lines, the National

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Speaker 1: Press Club only admitted white men. And you know, we

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Speaker 1: mentioned that a lot of times black papers and news

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Speaker 1: agencies couldn't even get access to press releases. They relied

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Speaker 1: on other news outlets to sort of hear what was

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Speaker 1: going on in Washington, but they also relied on word

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Speaker 1: of mouth. Secretaries and custodians around the Capitol would often

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Speaker 1: share what they overheard, even you know, snag a document

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Speaker 1: or two off of the mimeograph machine that means copy machine,

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Speaker 1: you young people. Um and journals would also consult the

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Speaker 1: qute unquote black cabinet of the highest ranking black officials

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Speaker 1: at the time, including Mary McLeod Bethune and in nineteen

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Speaker 1: forty four, the Atlanta Daily worlds Henry McAlpin becomes the

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Speaker 1: first black journalist to cover a White House press conference,

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Speaker 1: but he was still denied admission to the White House

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Speaker 1: Correspondence Association. It wasn't until nineteen fifty one that Louis

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Speaker 1: Laudier became the first black reporter admitted to the Correspondence Association,

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Speaker 1: and ps that organization remains overwhelmingly white, as only seven

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Speaker 1: of the fifty three regular correspondents were journalists of color.

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Speaker 1: The Washington Post reported, Yeah, well, Laudier was considered a

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Speaker 1: pretty safe choice to start this integration idea because he

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Speaker 1: was already a Department of Justice stenographer who was a

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Speaker 1: freelance journalist, and so um people in the government were like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: he's going to be pliable. We can just get him

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Speaker 1: to do whatever we want. And so in their minds,

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Speaker 1: that was a lot safer than getting maybe an ethel Pain,

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Speaker 1: for instance, who might be more of a firecracker. So,

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Speaker 1: considering such an outright hostile and racist environment, how on

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Speaker 1: earth could a woman of color break through the ranks.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that when we come right

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Speaker 1: back from a quick break. Listen, people, you need to

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Speaker 1: know how to cook at some point in your life.

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Speaker 1: And with Blue Apron, not only do you end up

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Speaker 1: knowing your way around the kitchen, but you get to

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00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 1: cook healthier meals and save money. Instead of ordering all

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00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 1: of that expensive takeout for less than ten dollars a meal,

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00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 1: Blue Apron delivers all the fresh ingredients you need to

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Speaker 1: create home cooked meals. Just follow the easy, step by

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Speaker 1: step instructions that come with pictures. For people like me

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Speaker 1: who are visual learners. Plus, each meal can be prepared

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Speaker 1: in forty minutes or less, no overwhelming trips to the

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Speaker 1: grocery store, and no more sad takeout. No matter your

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00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 1: dietary preferences, Blue Apron makes it a breeze to discover

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00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 1: and prepare delicious dishes like pork chops over goat cheese,

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00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:20,120
Speaker 1: polenta with English peas, pearl onions and mint. Or if

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Speaker 1: you prefer vegetarian fair, how about some Jamaican me crazy

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Speaker 1: inspired curry chili with potatoes, collards and roady bread. All

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00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 1: recipes are between five to seven hundred calories per portion,

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00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 1: and right now you can get your first two meals

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00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: for free at blue Apron dot com slash mom stuff.

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00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 1: That's blue Apron dot com slash mom stuff. Blue Apron

351
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: a better way to cook. So we keep teasing you

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Speaker 1: about Ethel pain like when are we When are we

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Speaker 1: going to dig in to old Ethel? Here? Where is not?

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Speaker 1: We're just gonna keep saying her name and then it's

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Speaker 1: gonna hint at it finger well, so we will talk

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Speaker 1: about Ethel. We have so much to talk about, but

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Speaker 1: first we have to talk about a predecessor. So Ethel

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Speaker 1: was almost the first black female reporter in the White

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Speaker 1: House Press Corps. But her work builds right on top

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Speaker 1: of that of one Alice done Again, and Alice Donegan

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Speaker 1: herself is a pretty impressive figure with a lot of

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Speaker 1: first She was the first black female journalist accredited to

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Speaker 1: the House and Senate press galleries, the White House, and

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. And she was the first to travel

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Speaker 1: with the US President, that president being Harry Truman during

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Speaker 1: his nine whistle stop tour of eighteen Western states. And

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Speaker 1: I love the story where she was traveling. She was

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Speaker 1: the only black woman, but there were also two black

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Speaker 1: male reporters traveling with this whistle stop tour and Truman

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Speaker 1: makes an unscheduled stop I think in Montana or Wyoming,

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Speaker 1: one of those states. And uh, I think it was

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Speaker 1: at night. It wasn't planned. She gets off the train

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Speaker 1: because one of her colleagues back home had been like,

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Speaker 1: you always need to get off the train. Cover everything,

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Speaker 1: keep your ear to the ground at all times. But

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Speaker 1: her two uh, black male colleagues who had no interest

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Speaker 1: in getting off the train. But it just so happened

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Speaker 1: that at this unscheduled stop. This was Truman's first time

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Speaker 1: mentioning the importance of civil rights to America and she

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Speaker 1: got the story, but at the risk of losing her

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Speaker 1: spot and the press corps. She refused to share her

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Speaker 1: story with the rest of the pool, particularly her two

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Speaker 1: black male colleagues, because she was like, oh, you're not

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Speaker 1: going to get off the train. Well, then, I clearly,

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Speaker 1: as a woman, have had to work harder than you

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Speaker 1: I am. She she has this great quote about, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, women have to work harder because they're not

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Speaker 1: as secure in their positions and they have to prove themselves,

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Speaker 1: which is obviously something we still talk about on the

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Speaker 1: podcast today. Um She's like, well, no, I'm I'm just

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Speaker 1: going to write this story and submitted. Well, and one

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Speaker 1: of those dudes, one of her colleagues, was Louis Laudier,

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Speaker 1: and he was not helpful to her either. He was

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Speaker 1: outright rude about her and Ethel Payne when Ethel Payne

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Speaker 1: um steps onto the scene and they were outright competitors. Um.

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Speaker 1: So for a little more about Dunnigan, though, she became

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Speaker 1: the Washington bureau chief for the Associated Negro Press starting

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seven, and she was really the link between

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Speaker 1: the African American community and those early civil rights related

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Speaker 1: issues developing in Washington. Like you said, I mean she

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00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: reported on Harry S. Truman, mentioning this issue for the

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Speaker 1: very first time. But even just getting there, getting on

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Speaker 1: that train ending up in what wherever as Wyominger, Montana

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00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 1: was not easy, and she recounts her experience in her

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four autobiography Alone Atop the Hill in case

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00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 1: you're looking for some new reading material, and her account

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Speaker 1: of just initially trying to get into the press gallery

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Speaker 1: is exhausting. It is, but I mean she was. She

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Speaker 1: was relentless as well, she should be. I I admire

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Speaker 1: people who are relentless. Um, it is worth mentioning though

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Speaker 1: the subcurrent of what's going on here. Yes, she was

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Speaker 1: the Washington bara chief for the A and P. However,

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Speaker 1: this woman barely made enough to live on like she

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Speaker 1: and Ethel Payne and many many others had to work

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Speaker 1: second jobs if they wanted to pursue their passion of journalism.

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Speaker 1: So Dunnigan was initially thwarted from getting accreditation to access

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Speaker 1: the Capital Press Gallery because they said only daily reporters

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Speaker 1: were loud. This was strategic, people, because so many black

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Speaker 1: papers were either weekly or monthly and so she's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: I can't do that. She saw admittance to the Periodicals Gallery,

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Speaker 1: but they wouldn't admit her because she didn't write for

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Speaker 1: a magazine. Convenient Well, and all of this happened after

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Speaker 1: she submitted her application to get access to the press gallery,

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Speaker 1: didn't hear anything, didn't hear anything. Finally started checking in

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Speaker 1: and she knew she was like, I had to be

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Speaker 1: annoying at that point, and she pestered them to the

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Speaker 1: point that they finally were like, uh so, sorry, you

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Speaker 1: work for a weekly and that's too bad. So then

429
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: when she goes back around a second time to periodicals

430
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: like mm hmm, sorry, it's not a magazine. Well, so

431
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: finally the Senate Rules Committee has to hold a hearing

432
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: and they ordered news agency reporters to be admitted. Yeah,

433
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: so she gets in that way. I mean, it wasn't

434
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: specifically like you have to let black reporters in there,

435
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: like just you know, news agency wink wink um. But

436
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: she definitely did not get any help from fellow female

437
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: journalists in Washington at the time, as the Women's National

438
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: Press Club was whites only. Well, yeah, and they they

439
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: had her over for dinner at one point, and she

440
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: said that she was so intimidated that she didn't speak

441
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: the whole time, and so they didn't end up inviting

442
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: her to be a member. Seven years later though, once

443
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,479
Speaker 1: she had established herself and her name and her writing,

444
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: they did invite her to be a member, and she

445
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,719
Speaker 1: basically talks about how, like, yeah, I knew it was bs,

446
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: like this is crap. They wouldn't they wouldn't let me

447
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: in seven years ago, but suddenly they're like, oh, okay,

448
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: And she writes about how in her autobiography, she writes

449
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: about how it, for some reason took seven years for

450
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: the liberal white women to finally get around to deciding

451
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: that having a black woman, one black woman in their

452
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: ranks was okay. That was a thing that kind of

453
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: astonishing me over and over again reading this history of

454
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 1: the Washington Press Corps, partially, you know, because of our

455
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: journalism training and my own assumption that like, journalists are

456
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: more liberal, right, they're more open minded. You have to

457
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: be objective, that's the whole thing, right. No, No, they

458
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: were incredibly racist and exclusive back then, just like so

459
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: many other people. No, I mean, yeah, I'm I'm not

460
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,719
Speaker 1: surprised whatsoever. I mean, I worked at an incredibly conservative

461
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: newspaper for four years, and reading the editorial pages, I

462
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 1: was like, I can't believe. So no, I'm not surprised. Yeah,

463
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: that's very true. I mean, and I know that of

464
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: course they were like a bazillion conservative punda and there's

465
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: an entire news network devoted to that kind of news.

466
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: But I guess, Caroline, I'm just a little starry eyed.

467
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: I'm a little starry eyed a cub reporter hoping everybody's

468
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: practicing some empathy. So hopping back into our timeline, it's

469
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: Alice done again, is making her name with so much

470
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: dogged persistence in Washington? And where selful Pain? Was she

471
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: up to? Ethel's on our way to Japan? Wait what? Yeah? Um,

472
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: I guess we should probably back up, okay and explain

473
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: we've teased you. We've hinted at Ethel's incredible life long

474
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: enough and they're like, wait, what she when she's in Japan?

475
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: What's happening? Okay? So backing up, way up. In nineteen eleven,

476
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: Ethel Pain is born in Chicago. She's the granddaughter of slaves.

477
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: Her dad works as a pullman porter, but he dies

478
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: when she's just twelve years old from a disease he

479
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: contracted from handling dirty laundry on one of the trains.

480
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: And up until this point, her mom had been a

481
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: full time stay at home mom until her father's death,

482
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: at which point her mom when became a Latin teacher

483
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: like you do just teaching Latin. Uh. But Ethel was

484
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: really inspired by a lot of what her mother taught her.

485
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: There was a lot of studying the Bible, but also

486
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: a lot of studying literature. There's some Louisa may Alcott

487
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: thrown in there. There's all sorts of reading that really

488
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: inspired Ethel to be a word person. And she actually

489
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: though dreamed of becoming a civil rights lawyer who would

490
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: work on behalf of the poor. But and this should

491
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: sound familiar to you if you have a studied history

492
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: or be listened to our episode on Polly Murray, but

493
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: h Payne was denied admission to law school because of

494
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: her race. So fast forward to Ethel Payne is hanging

495
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: out mining her own business and she encounters outside of

496
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: a tavern a group of twenty five black men being

497
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: arrested by white police officers, and wanting to know what's

498
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 1: going on, she goes up to one of the police

499
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,719
Speaker 1: officers and it's like, hey, what what happened? Why are

500
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: these men getting arrested? And how does he respond? He

501
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,719
Speaker 1: billy clubs her. Well, yeah, don't forget he first cusses

502
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: her out right and then yeah, this results in him

503
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,320
Speaker 1: hitting her. So she gets hauled off to jail along

504
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: with all the all of these dudes who are getting arrested. Um.

505
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: She is released, but she basically says no and threatens

506
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: the police that she is going to go to the

507
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: press to tell them about all of his brutality unless

508
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: they release all of the dudes along with her, and

509
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: they do. Yeah. Yeah, she succeeded, um, and not surprisingly

510
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: a year later she's like, you know what, I'm going

511
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: to piece out. UM, So she leaves home and her

512
00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: fiance who both move Ethel to be a hostess in

513
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: Japan for the Army Special Services Club UM, organizing recreational

514
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: activities and entertainment for African American troops because keep in

515
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 1: mind the military is segregated at this time. Now keep

516
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: in mind, you know, Ethel's a person with these huge dreams, right,

517
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: like a huge personality too. I mean, she's not afraid

518
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: to stand up even to the police, right. But she

519
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 1: had been working as a library clerk and was totally

520
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: bored and so that's when she like, she's bored in

521
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: her job. She's got these big dreams and a big personality.

522
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: She's experienced police brutality and is like, it's time to

523
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: go to Japan, as you do like you do. So

524
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 1: in nineteen though, a reporter from the Chicago Defender Guy

525
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: named Alex Wilson stops by Japan on his way to

526
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: report on the Korean War and they hit it off,

527
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 1: and she ends up showing Wilson her diary and he's like,

528
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: this is sensational. This is the kind of information that

529
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: we really need to be reporting back to the black

530
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 1: community in the United States. So he asks her and

531
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 1: she grants her permission for him to take the diary

532
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: back to Chicago, and he ends up turning the diary

533
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 1: entries into a front page news story about the experiences

534
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: a black soldiers stationed in Japan. And it is not

535
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: a pretty picture that she paints. She highlights not only

536
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: segregation but also this huge issue of black soldiers fathering

537
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: children with Japanese women and then of course leaving um

538
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: and the story is huge, so huge in fact that

539
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: in one the Chicago Defender is like, listen, you're a

540
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: good writer, you have an eye for news. Obviously, why

541
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: don't you come back from Japan? Will give you a

542
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 1: full time job. Yeah, And so she looks at this

543
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 1: opportunity and basically says, I wanted to be a lawyer.

544
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 1: I wanted to change the world that way, but that's

545
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: not going to happen. Here's another way that I can

546
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: fulfill what I perceive as my duty, my desire to

547
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: change the world. Pen instead of gavel. The pen is

548
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: mightier than the gavel, I don't know, or or a

549
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: lawyer's briefcase, The pen is mightier than a matlock suit.

550
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 1: Is that? Yes, that's actually perfect um. And keep in

551
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 1: mind that that The Chicago Defender was actually banned in

552
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: a lot of towns because it's motto was that American

553
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,359
Speaker 1: race prejudice must be destroyed. I mean, I think that

554
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: that's a basic, important statement, but that was dangerous to

555
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: a lot of people. So because it was banned in

556
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: so many areas, you have those pullman porters who would

557
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,240
Speaker 1: stash copies in their lockers and drop them at barbershops

558
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: and churches along their southern roots, and her dad had

559
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,720
Speaker 1: been one of those people when he worked as a porter.

560
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,240
Speaker 1: He had been one of the people stashing those copies

561
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,879
Speaker 1: of the newspaper in his locker so that he could

562
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,479
Speaker 1: distribute them full circle legacy. Well, and speaking of mottos too,

563
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: I would like to note that the Chicago Defender's motto

564
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: well compliments her personal motto that she borrowed from Frederick Douglas. Agitate, Agitate, Agitate.

565
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there's no there's no removing her personal views

566
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: from her work. And I mean this is critical to

567
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: to who she is and what she accomplished. I mean,

568
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: you know, people talk about agenda journalism and advocacy journalism,

569
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 1: and Ethel Payne denied that she had a bias, but

570
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: that whatever bias she had, it was for the truth.

571
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: And I think that work like hers is still incredibly important.

572
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 1: But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Yeah, and I

573
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: quickly want to mention too that she's hopping into her

574
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 1: job at the Chicago Defender untrained, So I think this

575
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,919
Speaker 1: is around the time she starts taking some classes at

576
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: Northwestern's Middle School of Journalism. So any Northwestern alums or

577
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: students listening shout out to y'all. I would have loved

578
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: to have been in a class with Ethel Payne. Can

579
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: you imagine? Well, you're probably like, well, I'm sure it

580
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: would have been cool. Why do you say that? And

581
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: it's because she's a freaking rabble rouser, which will get

582
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: into more like if you can already tell like, we're

583
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: really excited about Ethel Paine. She's kind of a journalism

584
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: hero um. But so after starting her full time job

585
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: at the Chicago defendsh she quickly makes her mark in In

586
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,800
Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty two, her story on the adoption crisis

587
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: among African American babies won her an Illinois Press Association

588
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 1: Award for Best News Stories, and she also quickly established

589
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: her complete disinterest in fluff pieces. Don't assign Ethel a

590
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 1: feature story on because even when she was a sign

591
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: of fluff piece, she would still find the hard news

592
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: angle in it and find a way to insert her

593
00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:00,439
Speaker 1: views on the topic. And that's probably why by three

594
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:07,719
Speaker 1: her press compatriots or for dour as a newsman's newsman

595
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 1: kind of like you know, a comedians comedian, she was

596
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: a newsman's newsman. Now sensing her ambition and also that

597
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: instinct for hard news. The Chicago Defender needed someone to

598
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 1: take over in its Washington bureau, so they're like, Ethel,

599
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,240
Speaker 1: head on out to d C. It's only gonna be you.

600
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,439
Speaker 1: You will be a one person bureau, but you can

601
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: do it. And they I love the fanfare with which

602
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: the Chicago Defender announced Ethel going to Washington on the

603
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: front page. The headline read, miss Ethel Payne, one of

604
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 1: the Chicago Defenders crack news and feature writers, has been

605
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:55,879
Speaker 1: assigned to Washington. Q Celebratory trumpets. Yeah. And she would

606
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 1: later go on to talk about how having a seat

607
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 1: at the table, so to speak, really forced the mainstream

608
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: white media too not only hear about and acknowledge, but

609
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: also report on issues of civil rights that they were

610
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: completely ignoring. Um. One of the first things that she

611
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 1: reported on was the fact that the Howard University choir

612
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 1: had been diverted away from performing during the Republicans annual

613
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 1: Lincoln Day dinner, and of course the white press did

614
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,879
Speaker 1: not report this. There were a couple of choirs, one

615
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: was from Emory, one was from I think it was

616
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: Duke University Duke, and so Howard was the third. Well,

617
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: the two white choirs get through just fine, but the

618
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: Howard buss is diverted a couple of times, and because

619
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: they want them to go into a special back entrance.

620
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: And this outraged pain and so she reported on it,

621
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 1: forcing other people to finally recognize like, Okay, well, I

622
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,280
Speaker 1: guess there are issues that we are ignoring. Yeah, and

623
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 1: this is Eisenhower's turn that she is stepping into and

624
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 1: right on the heels of the Howard University incident during

625
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: all of this, uh Lincoln Day celebrating that the Republican

626
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:17,919
Speaker 1: Party was doing. She was outraged at Sherman Adams, who

627
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: was chief of staff, because he apparently specially requested for

628
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: a black face performer at another Lincoln event, and she

629
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 1: sent him a telegram. I mean, this woman has like

630
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: barely been in d C. Like a week, and she

631
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: is sending a telegram to the president's chief of staff

632
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: basically saying, listen, there could have been a better way

633
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 1: to represent black people on quote such an occasion, more

634
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: dignified and in keeping with the progress of the race.

635
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: I mean. She clapped back, well, I mean you also

636
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: have to keep in mind what she herself was facing

637
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 1: while she was walking the streets of Washington, d c

638
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: I mean, she had to deal with cabs not picking

639
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 1: her up, not being admitted to restaurants. UM. When she

640
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,400
Speaker 1: was traveling to cover story, she had to stay in

641
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: private homes instead of hotels, particularly in the South. There's

642
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 1: one story UM where she was staying in a white

643
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: professor friends house and rocks were threatened through the window.

644
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,800
Speaker 1: The professor ended up getting evicted from his own apartment UM,

645
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 1: simply because he allowed her to stay there. And she

646
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:31,880
Speaker 1: wasn't afraid to speak or rather write her mind about

647
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: the civil rights issues that were really starting to bubble

648
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: up at the time. I mean, when Brown versus the

649
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: Board of Education Supreme Court decision was handed down in

650
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four, she wasn't kicking up her heels about it.

651
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: She was distraught and called it a poor compromise because

652
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 1: they did not stipulate a timeline for integration. So she

653
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 1: was like, there's no timeline, and so this is going

654
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: to be a mess because we're gonna have to go

655
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: state by state now and protests will happen. I mean,

656
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 1: and she predicted all of this stuff that did happen.

657
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 1: And she also had this presecent instinct about the civil

658
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: rights movement as it was developing. She was one of

659
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: the first to spotlight the significance of Rosa Parks and

660
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: even MLK. She was like, there's this preacher in Atlanta,

661
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: used twenty seven years old, and watch out for him. Well, yeah,

662
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 1: She was one of the first to note how the clergy,

663
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: the black clergy, were sort of leading the way in

664
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: the civil rights movement. And she was also though critical

665
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 1: of MLK. She's not like she gave him a free pass,

666
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: but she did voice concerns about airing laundry in a

667
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: way that would attract the white press's attention. She wanted

668
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 1: to definitely support leaders like MLK, and she wanted him

669
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 1: to succeed, but she also wanted to do her due

670
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 1: diligence of being a critical reporter who could analyze the situation.

671
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: But there was that concern that if the white press

672
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: catches wind of any criticisms, they might just run with

673
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,360
Speaker 1: it and not give him a seat at the table.

674
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 1: And that's something too, that's so so fascinating about the

675
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: role of the black press at the time, and particularly

676
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 1: the handful of them who were in Washington, because there

677
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 1: were all these separate conversations that would be happening within

678
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: these black newspapers. I mean that was their functions since

679
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: what eight But like you said, it's like they could

680
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: speak but not too loudly so as to not attract

681
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 1: too much attention. We'll we'll come back to that in

682
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: just a second. But we should know that she probably

683
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 1: covered and participated and more civil rights events than any

684
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 1: other journalist at the time. I mean, she she was

685
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: there for the events that were happening in six She

686
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 1: was there for the Montgomery bus boycott and the desegregation

687
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,320
Speaker 1: efforts at the University of Alabama. In ninety seven, she

688
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: was in Arkansas for the Little Rock nine and I

689
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,399
Speaker 1: think that's where she was staying in the professor's home

690
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 1: and got the rock throne in the window. That's war

691
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: to nineteen sixty three, and she's hopping into the activism herself.

692
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: She demonstrated in Birmingham, she participated in the March on Washington,

693
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: and two years later she marched from Selma to Montgomery

694
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 1: to demand voting rights. Yeah, and she unintentionally question mark

695
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:40,760
Speaker 1: made civil rights and national issue when during a press

696
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: conference with President Eisenhower, she asked when he would ban

697
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 1: segregation in interstate travel and he was none too pleased.

698
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: I mean, this was not just a black press issue.

699
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: Everybody reported on how angry Eisenhower got and how he

700
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 1: used clipped tones and clipped words with her. Uh. This

701
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: effectively moved civil rights into the national news cycle, and

702
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: it drove Eisenhower on a more personal note to Boycott

703
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: ethel Payne. I think in the rest of her time,

704
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 1: the couple of years that she was still in the

705
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: press corps, he just answered maybe two of her questions

706
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,240
Speaker 1: in her remaining time. Yeah, And I believe that happened

707
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 1: in when he when he got his feathers all ruffled.

708
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 1: And when I was first reading this, I was like, wait,

709
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 1: so what what Why did him getting annoyed set off

710
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: national headlines and like the Washington Post and all of

711
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: these bigger newspapers. And then I read his exact response

712
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,280
Speaker 1: and was like, oh, so, in response to her question

713
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 1: of just like, okay, when are you gonna like, uh,

714
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: you know, enforced desegregation of interstate travel, he said, quote,

715
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 1: the administration is trying to do what it thinks and

716
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 1: believes to be decent and just in this country. Okay,

717
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: following you, Mike. But then he says, and it's not

718
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: in the effort to support any particular or special group

719
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 1: of any kind. Who All right, so you are framing

720
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 1: the African American community as a special interest group, and

721
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 1: with that, civil rights becomes a national conversation. It's not

722
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: just happening within the Black press anymore. It's funny though,

723
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 1: because both Ethel Payne and Alice Dunagan had annoyed the

724
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: president at these press conferences with these these gal reporters,

725
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 1: as their colleague Lewis Laudier called them. Yeah, he was

726
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: so dismissive of Alice and Ethel. But at the same

727
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:44,720
Speaker 1: time too, I mean, remember, yeah, that Ethel and Alice

728
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 1: are in Washington at the same time, and I mean,

729
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 1: talk about personality differences. You have Alice Dunnagan, who was

730
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: so much more reserved, and then Ethel comes in and

731
00:47:54,760 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 1: she's such a bulldozer. And when incident with Eisenhower happened,

732
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 1: the Black press freaked out. They accused her of being

733
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,800
Speaker 1: overly assertive because it was again it was that issue

734
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 1: of like, Okay, we can't we can't make too many waves,

735
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 1: don't like act out because it's taken so much for

736
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: us to even get in the room in Washington. But

737
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 1: she did not care at all about likability. Um. She

738
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: had a great quote saying, I admit it, I was obnoxious,

739
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: stubborn and absolutely impossible to work with, impervious to all

740
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 1: suggestions as to how to behave with civility. But when

741
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: you're a black reporter man or woman, that's part of

742
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 1: your job. Yeah. I mean, but there were other reporters

743
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: as part of that press corps who were saying that

744
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: that question should have been asked anyway, And instead of

745
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 1: being like tisk tiss ethel, were like, hey, why aren't

746
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 1: the rest of you asking these questions? And because of

747
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 1: her work, and because of how political she was, and

748
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 1: because of how involved she was, she was the only

749
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 1: woman invited to lbj's off is for the signing of

750
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 1: the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. He

751
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 1: only invited people who were important and critical to the

752
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 1: civil rights movement, and she was one of those people.

753
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 1: She ended up actually getting two of the pins that

754
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 1: he used to sign those acts. Um. And you mentioned

755
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: earlier about how she wasn't necessarily an objective journalist, as

756
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 1: much as she claimed that she didn't have bias, but

757
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 1: I mean she it was never really her goal, like

758
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 1: you talked about. I mean, her goal was to whether

759
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: whether she you know, kind of was blind to her

760
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:39,320
Speaker 1: own biases. She was really driven to uncover the truth.

761
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: And in talking about that, she once said, the privilege

762
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: of being a White House correspondent, wasn't that enough? Why

763
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: couldn't I be quiet and not stir things up? Well,

764
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,280
Speaker 1: I didn't think that was my purpose. If you've lived

765
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 1: through the black experience in this country, you feel that

766
00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: every day you're assaulted by the system. You're either acquiescent,

767
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,320
Speaker 1: which I think is wrong, or else you just rebel

768
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: and you kick against it. Yeah, and she says I

769
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:10,760
Speaker 1: wanted to constantly, constantly, constantly hammer away raise the questions

770
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,839
Speaker 1: that needed to be raised. And she later said that,

771
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 1: you know, I was part of the problem if I

772
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: didn't speak up. So she felt compelled to speak up.

773
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: This is a woman who had wanted to be a

774
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:26,320
Speaker 1: civil rights lawyer for the specifically for the poor and disenfranchised.

775
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: So you know, she's made quite the name for herself.

776
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 1: She's an incredibly successful reporter, and so the Chicago Defender

777
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: actually sends her overseas to be their international reporter. So

778
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 1: she goes back across the ocean, and lands in Vietnam

779
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 1: on Christmas Day, nineteen sixties six. She was the first

780
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 1: African American woman reporter to do this. Well, I mean,

781
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 1: she was the first member of the Black press to

782
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:57,759
Speaker 1: go to Vietnam period too. I mean, and it was

783
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 1: super rare for just a female correspondent period to a

784
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: exist but then also be in a war zone. And

785
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 1: her reporting over there of a situation for African American

786
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: troops in the war was so important because back in

787
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: the United States, the community was really divided over Vietnam

788
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:24,879
Speaker 1: because of the irony of US soldiers being over there

789
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: fighting to allegedly free a people while its own people

790
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 1: had to fight tooth and nail for equality. But at

791
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 1: the same time, Ethel Payne was not overtly critical of

792
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,760
Speaker 1: the war because this was the first time the army

793
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 1: was fully integrated, and she considered the black soldiers quote

794
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:48,839
Speaker 1: free of racial barriers. Well. Part of that was that

795
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 1: a lot of reporters at the time, a lot of

796
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,919
Speaker 1: black reporters at the time, were encouraged by their home

797
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 1: papers to try to gloss over any potential racism or

798
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 1: segregation that was still lingering. They want to present a

799
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:04,799
Speaker 1: better picture to the people back home. Um, in order

800
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:08,400
Speaker 1: to support the war, in order to support African American soldiers.

801
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: She would later go on to say that she regretted

802
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:14,359
Speaker 1: not being more critical of the war. Yeah, and and

803
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 1: after Vietnam, I mean, she just continues traveling. She reports

804
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 1: on the Asian Africa Summit in Indonesia. She travels to

805
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: Ghana with President Nixon. UM and side note on that

806
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,800
Speaker 1: when I think it was was it Kissinger? He specifically

807
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: requested her. He said he wanted that woman who gives

808
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: me hell on CBS to accompany him. Oh my god,

809
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: I love it. Um. And she ended up going to

810
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 1: China with Susan Sontag and a group of other people,

811
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:44,879
Speaker 1: and they were I think one of, if not the

812
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:50,399
Speaker 1: first group of Americans who went into China, Like who

813
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 1: were even allowed in China at that time. But in

814
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies, she ends up finally retiring from the

815
00:52:56,719 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 1: Chicago Defender. They tried to make her Um actually like

816
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 1: manager of the local news operations. She was just like,

817
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: I can't do this. I'm not into this local stuff. Sorry.

818
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 1: But she's then hired on by CBS and becomes the

819
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: first black female news commentator for a major radio and

820
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: TV network, And I think it was in an interview

821
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,239
Speaker 1: with Gwen Eiffel, the author of one of these fantastic

822
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 1: books about black women, journalist talks about how um there

823
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 1: was a well known black male newscaster who told this

824
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 1: author that I saw um ethel pain on television and

825
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,719
Speaker 1: I knew I could do that too. And that story

826
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 1: it just gives me goose bumps because we talk all

827
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 1: the time about like role models and seeing yourself represented.

828
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 1: And not only is this a black person feeling like

829
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 1: I can achieve something in a white dominated industry, but

830
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 1: it's a man seeing an incredibly inspiring woman on screen too.

831
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 1: If you see it, you can be at Caroline. And

832
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,879
Speaker 1: as she was working for CBS, she also continued expanding

833
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 1: her reach with syndicated columns. UM so she'd be she

834
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 1: was a well known name around the country. Um. And

835
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:15,359
Speaker 1: she died in and there was a quote that she

836
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: gave talking about how she had a box seat on

837
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 1: history and she was like, I like to think that

838
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 1: I helped change things. She did. She for sure wanted

839
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 1: to be remembered as an agent of change, and without

840
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 1: a doubt she was, Yeah, I mean, the the only

841
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:36,800
Speaker 1: sad part about it is how unsung she has been. UM.

842
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 1: But we should also note about the black press at

843
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:43,800
Speaker 1: the time after the Civil rights movement, it really starts

844
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:48,720
Speaker 1: to fade from relevance as these larger newspapers start hiring

845
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 1: the best and brightest black journalists and they begin actually

846
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 1: covering civil rights and other African American relevant issues. And

847
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 1: then on top of that, you have the girl success

848
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 1: of Ebony and Jet magazines that kind of pushes these, uh,

849
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: these black newspapers out of business. I mean, because you've

850
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,279
Speaker 1: been have higher ad rates. I mean, now we're just

851
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:16,239
Speaker 1: getting into the weeds of how um journalism operations were.

852
00:55:17,040 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 1: But essentially they were evil and her counterparts did such

853
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:23,840
Speaker 1: a good job they kind of put the black press

854
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 1: out of business in a lot of ways. But you

855
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 1: see sort of the repeated re emergence of a vocal

856
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,759
Speaker 1: black press so to speak nowadays, not to use the

857
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,879
Speaker 1: word nowadays and sound like an old but you have

858
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: all of these incredible voices emerging online on Twitter. You've

859
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,759
Speaker 1: got the route which I love to read, UM, that

860
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:49,839
Speaker 1: is bringing up issues that are relevant to communities of

861
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 1: color that again the mainstream press is not paying the

862
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:58,399
Speaker 1: same attention to. Yeah, I mean, and the media might

863
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 1: have changed, but I think that the voices are getting louder.

864
00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 1: I mean because it's also not just journalists and established

865
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 1: thinkers like Jamil Smith, but you also just have the

866
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 1: existence of black Twitter. I mean that it's I mean,

867
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 1: there's that level of organizing that is happening. It's just

868
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:23,439
Speaker 1: more digital than I r L. Yeah, and I think that.

869
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 1: And I don't want to put words in Ethel's mouth.

870
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure she would be more than happy to spit

871
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: them out. She would be more than happy to speak

872
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 1: for herself. Um. But I think she would be really

873
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: excited by the social justice landscape today. I mean, she

874
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 1: was absolutely an agenda journalist because I mean the truth is,

875
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 1: you do have to change people's hearts and minds from

876
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 1: the ground up. Yes, yes, when you get Supreme Court

877
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:55,360
Speaker 1: rulings and legislation, that is the ultimate goal, But first

878
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 1: you have to do a lot of mind changing. And

879
00:56:57,520 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 1: that was that was her goal. She wanted to change

880
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: people lives. Yeah, I mean, and and also too, I

881
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 1: mean Supreme Court decisions and legislation, that's not where it stops.

882
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 1: I mean, think about her reaction to Brown, I mean

883
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 1: just being so um, so upset at almost how toothless

884
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 1: it was. But speaking of ethel Pain being alive today,

885
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 1: oh man, I wish she was on Twitter. Oh god,

886
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 1: I know I have the same thought or tumbler. Well, listeners,

887
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 1: now I want to hear from you. What are your

888
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:32,800
Speaker 1: thoughts on all of this? Have you ever heard of

889
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 1: ethel Pain before? Are there people that we didn't talk about,

890
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 1: figures in the black press that we should have mentioned

891
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 1: that we didn't let us know? Help us fill in

892
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 1: all of the pieces of this story that all of

893
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 1: us need to know. So much more about mom Stuff

894
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 1: at how stuffworks dot com is our email address. You

895
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 1: can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages

896
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 1: on Facebook, and we have a couple of messages to

897
00:57:54,960 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 1: share with you right now. Well, I have a letter

898
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 1: here from Rachel in response to our miscarriage interview with

899
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 1: Dr Jessica Zucker. She says, heycy and see, it's me,

900
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 1: the gal who stopped taking sperano lactone so she could

901
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 1: get pregnant. Well conceived, I did, but it quickly ended

902
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 1: in an ectopic pregnancy. I opted to have surgery as treatment,

903
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 1: and literally the first time I looked at my phone

904
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 1: and recovery, I saw that the eye had a miscarriage

905
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 1: episode had dropped. It took me two weeks to bring

906
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 1: myself to listen to the episode, but I'm so glad

907
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 1: that I did. While my loss was early on, it

908
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:35,040
Speaker 1: was certainly traumatic, with emergency major surgery and the loss

909
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: of one of my fallopian tubes. Although I didn't know

910
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 1: that I was pregnant until I knew that something was wrong,

911
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 1: I still had to grieve the disappointment and the perceived

912
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 1: failure of my otherwise healthy and somewhat youthful body, and

913
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 1: the loss of a crucial part of my reproductive system.

914
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 1: Something that I thought would be so natural and easy

915
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 1: was suddenly a disaster. I have found refuge in the

916
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 1: support of friends, family, and lady co workers, because when

917
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,120
Speaker 1: you disappear for a week, at least keep people the

918
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 1: office have to know the whole story. When I tell

919
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:04,680
Speaker 1: my story, I always say that the women need to

920
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 1: discuss the issues more. I mentioned to my husband that

921
00:59:07,880 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 1: what happened to us is rare. His response, no, it's not.

922
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 1: All the articles I've read say it's about one in

923
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 1: fifty pregnancies and anek topic one in fifty. That is

924
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 1: so much more common than I ever would have expected.

925
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:23,520
Speaker 1: Pregnancy laws in any way, is a very real possible

926
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:25,960
Speaker 1: outcome of conception, and I just keep thinking that if

927
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 1: we had been hearing about it in a real and

928
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: honest manner our whole lives, we would have been better

929
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 1: equipped to deal with the situation. Thank you for the

930
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 1: interview with Dr Zucker. It could not have come to

931
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,320
Speaker 1: me at a better time. I'm sorry for that traumatic

932
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:42,440
Speaker 1: experience you had to go through, but we really appreciate

933
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 1: you sharing your story. So I've got to let her

934
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 1: hear from Kim about our episode on NASA's Hidden Women,

935
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:52,280
Speaker 1: and she writes, I wanted to comment on the word

936
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 1: hidden in your podcast title. You're sad that these amazing

937
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 1: women aren't household names, and some of them were impossible

938
00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 1: to research. This the problem inherent in STEM fields. We

939
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 1: don't watch science like we watch sports. Great accomplishments aren't

940
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:08,680
Speaker 1: often labeled great until we can look at them through

941
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 1: the lens of history, and much of the work is

942
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 1: done behind closed doors or private companies. So your podcast

943
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 1: is a great example of something I tell the women

944
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 1: engineers around me. Don't let your history be forgotten. Write

945
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 1: it down, talk to people. Even if it's complicated. Think

946
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 1: of the ways you could explain to a first grader

947
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 1: what it is you're doing to make the world a

948
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 1: better place. I'm an electrical engineer in the aviation industry.

949
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 1: What what? I helped figure out how to make cockpit displays,

950
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 1: radios and sensors work together. And I love all caps

951
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 1: my job. But growing up, I wasn't sure what electrical

952
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:46,440
Speaker 1: engineers did. I liked physics and had a hunch I

953
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 1: could make it. It was a gutsy decision, but it

954
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 1: should have been an obvious choice. Telling our stories and

955
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:53,720
Speaker 1: all the other ones like Katherine Johnson's will make us

956
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 1: less hidden and will help all of the next girls

957
01:00:56,320 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 1: know that they're taking the right steps into STEM and

958
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. Kim and listeners, Now, we'd love

959
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 1: to hear from you, Mom Staffatt. How stuff Works dot

960
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 1: com is our email address and for links all of

961
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 1: our social media as well as all of our blogs,

962
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 1: videos and podcasts with our sources. So you can learn

963
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:18,800
Speaker 1: more about ethel Pain and the Black Press. Head on

964
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 1: over the Stuff Mom Never told You dot com for

965
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it

966
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 1: How stuff Works dot com