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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how self

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Speaker 1: works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Caroline and I'm Kristin. And last time on the podcast,

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Speaker 1: we talked with Dr Jessica Zucker about miscarriage, which is,

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Speaker 1: as we established, definitely a taboo topic in our society.

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Speaker 1: It's really difficult for people to talk about, to acknowledge,

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Speaker 1: to even reach out and seek help. And in our

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Speaker 1: conversation about infertility today, it's sort of a continuation of

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Speaker 1: that theme. Infertility is not uncommon, or struggles with fertility

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Speaker 1: in general are not uncommon, but as we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: in this episode and as we saw in our research,

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Speaker 1: what's so heartbreaking about it is the fact that no

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Speaker 1: matter who you are, no matter what your background is,

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Speaker 1: no matter what part of the world you live in

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Speaker 1: or what time him that you lived, women have experienced

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Speaker 1: so much shame, both internally and from other people over

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Speaker 1: the issue of infertility. Yeah, I mean, in all of

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Speaker 1: these conversations that we've had, not only about a miscarriage

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Speaker 1: and then today about infertility, but also other times we've

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Speaker 1: talked about pregnancy and just women's bodies in general, there's

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Speaker 1: always this theme of the limitations of what we can

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Speaker 1: and do and feel comfortable talking about UM. So this

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Speaker 1: is one where it is something that affects so many

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Speaker 1: of us, but we don't hear about it nearly as

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Speaker 1: much as we should. And when we do hear about it,

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Speaker 1: it tends to be from the perspective of a woman's

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Speaker 1: problem or it's the woman's fault. That's historically what how

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Speaker 1: this issue has been framed. And as we'll talk about,

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Speaker 1: this is not a woman's problem. This is this is

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Speaker 1: everyone's problem. If you are a person who wants to

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Speaker 1: have children, you very well might be affected by infertility. So,

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Speaker 1: just to cover the basics of what um infertility is,

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Speaker 1: it's medically defined as a difficulty conceiving a pregnancy after

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Speaker 1: a year of unprotected sex. But because as we've talked

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Speaker 1: about in the podcast before, obviously our fertility declines with age,

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Speaker 1: So for women over thirty five, doctors recommend checking in

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Speaker 1: if they've been unsuccessful getting pregnant after six months of trying.

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Speaker 1: That's right because for perspective, most fertile couples, according to researchers,

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Speaker 1: do conceive within six cycles when they're using timed intercourse.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't that sound so sexy and romantic six cycles. Use

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Speaker 1: your timed intercourse in your in your cycles. They're talking

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Speaker 1: about menstrual cycles, not yeah, not mons cycles, although I

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Speaker 1: mean there you go. Still tychnically the same. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: could time up by the moon if you wanted, you know,

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Speaker 1: full moon. Don't come a knocking or no please do

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Speaker 1: yes well yes, um. And of course related under this

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Speaker 1: umbrella of infertility is impaired fecundity, which encompasses non surgical sterility,

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Speaker 1: which is an impossibility to conceive, subfecundity, which is uh,

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Speaker 1: conception is difficult but not impossible and quote long interval

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Speaker 1: without conception. So there's a lot of different types of

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Speaker 1: fertility struggles wrapped up in our conversation today. And basically

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Speaker 1: this happens. Infertility is said to happen when there's a

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Speaker 1: breakdown somewhere in the conception process. It could be one place,

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Speaker 1: that could be multiple places, but you know, brief run

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Speaker 1: through refresher biology course for you. The conception process starts

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Speaker 1: with ovulation fertilization. Then the fertilized egg takes a little

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Speaker 1: swan dive through the fallopian tube towards the uterus and

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Speaker 1: then has to implant itself successfully in the uterus well,

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Speaker 1: and because it wasn't until the mid twentieth century that

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Speaker 1: we really started to understand all of the steps in

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Speaker 1: this process, humans just made up all sorts of reasons

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Speaker 1: why infertility would occur, which has only ingrained a lot

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Speaker 1: of the stigma um that we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: that is still very much alive and well today. UM.

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Speaker 1: But here's the thing. In addition to all of those

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Speaker 1: steps where things could possibly go awry, just getting pregnant

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Speaker 1: in and of itself, despite what um absence only sex

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Speaker 1: education might lead you to believe, getting pregnant is it's

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Speaker 1: hard to do. I mean, if you think about it,

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Speaker 1: you have this window in our menstrual cycle during which

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Speaker 1: conception is even possible. I eat ovulation, and the probability

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Speaker 1: of inception is only each month. Now, going back to

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Speaker 1: sex education, if you are listening to this and you're

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Speaker 1: sexually active, Uh, this is not Christen and Caroline endorsing

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Speaker 1: you to just go have unprotected sex um. But I

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Speaker 1: think it's just worth understanding the challenges that can naturally

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Speaker 1: occur with getting pregnant. Yeah, because it's estimated that ten

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Speaker 1: of normally fertile couples don't manage to conceive within the

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Speaker 1: first year, so it's it's not uncommon to struggle with

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Speaker 1: these issues. And so let's dive into some sex based

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Speaker 1: stats and facts, and that's biological sex, not literally getting

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Speaker 1: it on. So, like we said earlier, culturally we tend

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Speaker 1: to just sort of frame this as the fault of

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Speaker 1: the woman or the woman's problem. But depending on what

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Speaker 1: statistics you're looking at, about a third of the time

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Speaker 1: it's the man's fertility issues causing problems with conception, about

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Speaker 1: another third of the time it is something going on

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Speaker 1: in the woman's body. But the remaining third, give or take,

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Speaker 1: it's either both partners or an unknown cause. So if

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Speaker 1: we look just at men's fertility um for instance, just

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Speaker 1: to get a better grasp on that, the two thousand

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Speaker 1: two National Survey of Family Growth found that seven point

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Speaker 1: five percent of all sexually experienced men under forty five

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Speaker 1: I saw a fertility doctor at some point, and within

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Speaker 1: that group, eighteen percent or diagnosed with a fertility problem.

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Speaker 1: But that doesn't necessarily account for all of the dudes

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Speaker 1: who have had fertility issues. That's just people who have

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Speaker 1: sought out treatment for it. Yeah, and male fertility specific

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Speaker 1: problems include abnormal sperm production, function, and delivery, and this

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Speaker 1: can be caused by problems like undescended testicles, genetic disorders

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Speaker 1: like cystic fibrosis, health issues like diabetes, and also retrograde ejaculation,

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Speaker 1: which is when semen doesn't go out, it goes into

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Speaker 1: the bladder instead. I had never heard of that before

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Speaker 1: me neither, but I create when I read it because

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it's painful, but it sounds like

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Speaker 1: it's uncomfortable. So things that can contribute to male fertility

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Speaker 1: problem that that actually actually right, we should actually actually contribute, uh,

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Speaker 1: include overexposure to heat. Now I had heard this stuff

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Speaker 1: like anecdotally about laptops, like I had seen some studies

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Speaker 1: in the past couple of years about like men, don't

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Speaker 1: leave your mama's don't let your babies grow up to

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Speaker 1: put their laptops on their laps because it can affect

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Speaker 1: your fertility. No, and and this is not funny, but

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Speaker 1: it's it's true. Uh, Like things like hot tubs and

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Speaker 1: saunas can affect fertility. And a condition uh that also

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Speaker 1: affects fertility is when you basically have vericose veins in

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Speaker 1: your testies. Having those enlarged veins makes your testies warmer

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Speaker 1: and heat degrades the quality and quantity of sperm. And

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Speaker 1: also you've got to worry about exposure to overexposure, i

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Speaker 1: should say, to chemicals like pesticides, radiation, and steroids. So

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Speaker 1: if we look at what contributes to email fertility, we

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Speaker 1: have to think again about all of those steps along

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Speaker 1: the way from ovulation all the way to implantation. So

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Speaker 1: if we go back to ovulation, you might have disorders

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Speaker 1: that prevent the ovaries from releasing eggs to begin with,

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Speaker 1: or something called primary ovarian insufficiency, which is when your

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Speaker 1: ovaries begin to fail before the age of forty. And

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Speaker 1: then of course there are hormonal disorders like polycystic ovarian syndrome,

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Speaker 1: which is the most common cause of female infertility. And

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Speaker 1: we've talked about PICOS before on the podcast. There's a

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Speaker 1: stuff I'm Never told you video breaking down how PICOS

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Speaker 1: works if you're not familiar with it, and um in

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Speaker 1: a in a very small nutshell, what that leads to

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Speaker 1: is your body creating a surplus of androgen hormones, which

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Speaker 1: leads to irregular ovulation. Yeah, and you've also got hormone

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Speaker 1: issues like your body producing too much testosterone again a

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Speaker 1: male hormone or prolactin, which we've talked about on the

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Speaker 1: podcast before, which is actually a hormon that helps you breastfeed.

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Speaker 1: And of course problems with your thyroid gland, which is

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Speaker 1: part of your handy dandy endocrine system, and we've talked

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Speaker 1: about that before on the podcast too. Other major factors

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Speaker 1: include uterine or cervical abnormalities. You might have issues with

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Speaker 1: the shape, the opening, or the mucus happening there in

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Speaker 1: UH fibroids, that's a major issue because it can block

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Speaker 1: fallopian tubes and distort the uterine cavity, and we've done

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Speaker 1: a stuff Whenever Told You podcast all about fibroids. If

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Speaker 1: you're not up on those, that's true. And UH women

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Speaker 1: also might struggle with pelvic adhesions, which is scar tissue

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Speaker 1: that binds organs together after surgery. UM Indometriosis is also

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Speaker 1: a huge factor, as is inflammation of the fallopian tubes.

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Speaker 1: And to once more promote past stuff on Ever Told

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Speaker 1: You podcast, you should definitely listen to the one on

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Speaker 1: endometriosis or watch our video about it because it affects

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Speaker 1: so many women, and it takes an average of at

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Speaker 1: least going to five different doctors to get at the

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Speaker 1: correct diagnosis, and it's a major contributor to infertility as well. Um.

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Speaker 1: But then they're also other medical issues that can lead

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Speaker 1: to infertility like celiac, Cushing's disease, sickle cell anemia, diabetes,

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Speaker 1: and also STDs like gonorrhea or chlamydia, which if left

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Speaker 1: untreated can cause big trouble in your reproductive tract and

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Speaker 1: possibly lead to pelvic inflammatory disease. Yeah, oh boy, definitely

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Speaker 1: definitely practice safe sex. It's just and then that just

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Speaker 1: means it's one less thing to worry about for so

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Speaker 1: many reasons. Please please practice safe sex. Um. But a

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Speaker 1: couple of risk factors regardless of sex include cancer and

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Speaker 1: its subsequent treatment, radiation and chemotherapy. Age. We mentioned age earlier.

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Speaker 1: Women's fertility, for instance, starts declining in their thirties, men

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Speaker 1: in their forties, and this is sort of a growing

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Speaker 1: issue for people looking to have children because about twenty

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Speaker 1: percent of women in the United States specifically are having

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Speaker 1: their first children after age thirty five. So that just

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Speaker 1: means that age is a growing contributing factor to in

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Speaker 1: fertility and Among those couples where the woman is over

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Speaker 1: thirty five, a third report having fertility problems, and then

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Speaker 1: of course tobacco and alcohol use don't help matters. UM.

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Speaker 1: Being overweight can lead to fertility issues and can also

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Speaker 1: affect men's sperm count by the same token. Being underweight

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Speaker 1: also isn't great for fertility as well, UM, and can

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Speaker 1: lead to a co occurring issue of a minorrhea, which

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Speaker 1: can also be sparked by over exercise or excess stress. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Stress is always such a culpritive so many things. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we'll touch on the issue of stress here again

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Speaker 1: in a little bit, because there is also that I

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Speaker 1: don't know if it's a stereotype or the assumption that

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Speaker 1: stress makes you unfertile. And it's not quite that black

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Speaker 1: and white. So how common is this well, um, very common,

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Speaker 1: to put it in layman's terms. UM. It's important to

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Speaker 1: remember though that rates are going to differ depending on

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Speaker 1: factors like the age group of the people included, the

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Speaker 1: number of people in the surveys and studies. UM. But worldwide,

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Speaker 1: around two to ten of couples just don't have any

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Speaker 1: children UM, and ten to cent struggle with what's called

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Speaker 1: secondary infertility, and that's when you have your first kid,

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Speaker 1: everything's fine, but then you have a really hard time

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Speaker 1: getting pregnant the second time around. Yeah, So there was

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Speaker 1: this huge global meta study in that found that there's

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Speaker 1: nearly fifty million couples worldwide who were unable to have

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Speaker 1: a child after five years of trying. They found that

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Speaker 1: nearly two percent of women forty four years old who

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Speaker 1: wanted to have kids were unable to have their child.

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Speaker 1: That's primary infertility, and about ten and a half percent

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Speaker 1: of women experienced secondary infertility, which is what Kristen just mentioned.

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Speaker 1: But the thing is they also pointed out that those

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Speaker 1: rates were similar to what they had been twenty years earlier,

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Speaker 1: so we're not seeing a ton of advancement in terms

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Speaker 1: of in terms of sort of stemming that infertility tide basically.

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Speaker 1: And it is kind of counterintuitive when you look at

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Speaker 1: those age breakdowns, because for women between twenty and twenty

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Speaker 1: four years old, primary infertility rates are higher compared to

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Speaker 1: older women, but that pattern is reversed for secondary infertility,

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Speaker 1: where if you are younger and you have had that

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Speaker 1: first successful childbirth, then it's not as hard to get

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Speaker 1: pregnant a second time. As it is if you are

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Speaker 1: older and you have a successful first childbirth and then

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Speaker 1: try to get pregnant a second time. Yeah, And if

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Speaker 1: we look globally, primary infertility is actually higher in North

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Speaker 1: Africa and the Middle East when compared to a region

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Speaker 1: like Latin America or the Caribbean. And secondary infertility in

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Speaker 1: Sub Saharan Africa specifically affects more than thirty percent of

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Speaker 1: women between the ages of five and forty nine. And

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Speaker 1: if we zero in just on the US, six percent

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Speaker 1: of married women between ages of fifteen and forty four

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Speaker 1: are infertile. But if you look at all women trying

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Speaker 1: to get pregnant, regardless of relationship status, twelve percent of

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Speaker 1: that age group struggles within fertility issues. And I appreciated

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Speaker 1: that source for making that distinction between or even examining

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Speaker 1: the distinction between married women and women in any relationship

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Speaker 1: status trying to get pregnant, because so much of this

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Speaker 1: data is obviously very heteronormative. UM and you could also

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Speaker 1: say like sis sexist as well. I don't think that

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Speaker 1: we saw any studies on like AND's fertility issues at all.

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Speaker 1: UM and also a lot operating under the assumption that

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Speaker 1: all women want to get pregnant, and especially if women

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Speaker 1: are married. UM. So I think it's those kinds of

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Speaker 1: contexts are are good to keep in mind as well

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Speaker 1: to go through this. Sure, and it's not just women

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Speaker 1: in relationships who want to have children. I mean there

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Speaker 1: are women who are not in relationships who, for instance,

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Speaker 1: might be seeking a sperm donor and want to get

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Speaker 1: pregnant that way and then have struggles with it. So

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Speaker 1: it I think it is important to kind of break

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Speaker 1: out of the mindset of like, Okay, we're only going

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Speaker 1: to research people who are in relationships because well, what

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Speaker 1: is I mean, that's not the full picture? Then I

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Speaker 1: would think, yeah, and also only research people who are

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Speaker 1: in straight relationships too, there's not you don't see a

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Speaker 1: lot of variation within like the sexual orientation of UM

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Speaker 1: people in these studies as well. So just a little

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Speaker 1: background demograph, background on the available data that we're working with, right,

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Speaker 1: and as we move into talking about treatment, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think it's worth mentioning how health in general, but

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Speaker 1: also access to healthcare and socioeconomics are such a huge factor. UM.

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Speaker 1: There was a study way back when I was five

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Speaker 1: years old in h that found that the only group

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Speaker 1: to suffer a rise in infertility rates since the nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixties was women under twenty four and that was thanks

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Speaker 1: to a spike in STDs. That goes back to what

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Speaker 1: we mentioned about chlamydian gnarrhea, that those conditions are nothing

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Speaker 1: to laugh at or sniff at. You need to practice

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Speaker 1: safe sex and then successfully treat these conditions in order

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Speaker 1: to keep your fertility from suffering. Yeah. I remember when

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Speaker 1: that study came out and reading about it um in

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Speaker 1: the New York Times, as I did every day as

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Speaker 1: a four year old. Baby Kristen Yes, yes, a little

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Speaker 1: baby glasses well Fisher Price glasses, Yes, yes, baby cup

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Speaker 1: of coffee, and you were just like, this is this

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Speaker 1: is such a shame. This is such a shame. Kids

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Speaker 1: these days need to practice say sex exactly. You took

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Speaker 1: the words right out of my mouth, right out of

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Speaker 1: your toddler mouth, just like candy stealing candy from baby Kristen. Um.

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Speaker 1: And of course, doctors know that overall poor health can

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Speaker 1: contribute to infertility problems. And this is a huge deal

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Speaker 1: when you think about and I mean again, I'm speaking

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Speaker 1: as an American, but this is a huge deal when

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Speaker 1: you talk about people who don't have access to doctors

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Speaker 1: or healthcare or insurance. And yes, we have the Affordable

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Speaker 1: Care Act, but I personally know plenty of people who

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Speaker 1: still don't have health insurance and therefore still do not

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Speaker 1: have access to a regular doctor. And then it comes

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Speaker 1: back to to the cost of fertility treatments, which are

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Speaker 1: insanely prohibitive. They're definitely not accessible to everyone because they

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Speaker 1: can run you more than ten grand. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: that reminds me of one of the stories that we

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Speaker 1: were reading about infertility treatments and this couple that had

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Speaker 1: saved up ever since they got married for their future

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Speaker 1: children's college fund and had put all this money away,

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Speaker 1: and they ended up spending all of that money just

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Speaker 1: trying to get pregnant because those fertility treatments are so expensive,

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Speaker 1: not to mention all of the travel involved if you

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Speaker 1: live somewhere that might not have um this kind of

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Speaker 1: treatments available. So, speaking of which, in two thousand nine,

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Speaker 1: the World Health Organization classified infertility as a disease, and

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Speaker 1: part of the motivation for that was paving the way

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Speaker 1: for more insurers to cover treatments. Because, as of are

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Speaker 1: the most recent data we found at least only fifteen

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Speaker 1: states require insurance coverage for fertility treatments, so a lot

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Speaker 1: of this is like out of pocket costs, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that which is I mean, that's huge. It's a huge

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Speaker 1: cost um And treatments can involve assisted reproductive technology gene

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Speaker 1: this is any treatment in which the egg and sperm

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Speaker 1: are handled, and of course IVF in vitro fertilization falls

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Speaker 1: under that. It's the most common type of assisted reproductive technology,

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Speaker 1: and it involves retrieving multiple eggs, fertilizing them in the lab,

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Speaker 1: and implanting the embryos in the uterus. And there was

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Speaker 1: just an article that I just shot over to Kristen

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Speaker 1: last night that there's apparently a trial starting in the

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Speaker 1: UK for a controversial IVF technique to allow women thirty

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Speaker 1: and older And I'm like, oh god, I'm I'm a

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Speaker 1: thirty and older um to get their eggs quote unquote rejuvenated.

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Speaker 1: And basically this involves taking mitochondria from immature cells and

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Speaker 1: sticking them into mature cells to be used egg cells,

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Speaker 1: that is, to be used for IVF. And this matters

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Speaker 1: because aging mitochondria, which is like the cell's little powerhouses,

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Speaker 1: contribute to IVF failure. So if the succeeds, it could potentially,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe stave off the repeated costs of going

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Speaker 1: back over and over again to try IVF. And it

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Speaker 1: seems like the primary controversy with this is that it's

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Speaker 1: very unclear at this point that it could even be successful. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're not sure that it could could work. UM. Now,

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Speaker 1: if we look at treatment for women specifically, there of

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Speaker 1: course our fertility drugs to stimulate ovulation UM. There's intra

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Speaker 1: uterine insemination where healthy sperm is placed directly into the uterus,

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Speaker 1: and there's also surgery to correct uterine problems. And for men,

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Speaker 1: their treatments for various infections that might affect the reproductive

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Speaker 1: system as well as sexual dysfunction. You can also undergo

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Speaker 1: hormone treatments and surgery to correct and obstructed vast deference.

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Speaker 1: I used to be on a trivia team called Uptown

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Speaker 1: John and the vast deference UM or that condition that

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Speaker 1: we talked about earlier, where the enlarged veins and the

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Speaker 1: testes make them too hot, and of course also the

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Speaker 1: procedure in the process of hating sperm for that assisted

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Speaker 1: reproductive technology. But according to research from the CDC, A

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Speaker 1: majority of infertility treatments fail. Fifty seven percent of IVF

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Speaker 1: cycles using women's own eggs failed, whereas procedures using donor

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Speaker 1: eggs do better. They had only a thirty seven percent

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Speaker 1: fail rate. And not surprisingly, this has psychological side effects

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Speaker 1: as well. There was a Harvard study that we were

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Speaker 1: looking at, um finding how women who have difficulty getting

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Speaker 1: pregnant can be as depressed as those who have major

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Speaker 1: heart problems or cancer. Yeah, I mean it makes sense, Like,

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Speaker 1: think of your friends, who all they or maybe it's you.

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Speaker 1: You know, all you've wanted your whole life is to

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Speaker 1: have kids. You know. I'm I'm not on that wave length,

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Speaker 1: but I know many people who um. You know. For instance,

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Speaker 1: I had a coworker years ago who had pekos and

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Speaker 1: before she was in gauge, before she was married, she

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Speaker 1: was with the man she knew she wanted to be

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Speaker 1: with forever. She's like, let's just start trying because I

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Speaker 1: might never get pregnant. And I know that, you know,

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Speaker 1: watching friends struggle with that idea of like, I want

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Speaker 1: nothing more to than to be a parent, uh, and

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Speaker 1: to have that be a difficult process. Of course, I

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Speaker 1: can totally see how it would lead to massive depression

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Speaker 1: and stress, and it's that stress that can affect weather

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Speaker 1: and how long people stick it out for for treatment.

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Speaker 1: Harvard Medical School researchers found that thirty cent of patients

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Speaker 1: under forty with insurance for at least three IVF cycles

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Speaker 1: dropped out after only one or two. They also found

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Speaker 1: that sixty eight percent of patients over forty gave up

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Speaker 1: before exhausting their insurance coverage for the procedure. And they

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Speaker 1: write about how this whole thing, it just swallows your

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Speaker 1: life up. I mean, you become a slave to your

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Speaker 1: monthly side if you're tracking your ovulation and your periods,

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Speaker 1: and it's they talk about that that extreme disappointment, like

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Speaker 1: disappointments to week of a word, when you get your

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Speaker 1: period the next month, because you've put so much time, energy,

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Speaker 1: and potentially money into this process. But of course a

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Speaker 1: doctor is saying, just relax isn't going to help matters.

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Speaker 1: Those same Harvard researchers did find that lowering anxiety was

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Speaker 1: linked with improved pregnancy rates, and that patients with psychological

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Speaker 1: support do feel less distress about treatment and are quicker

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Speaker 1: to try other options like donor eggs, sperm, or adoption

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Speaker 1: and this is a big reason why it's important for

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Speaker 1: us to talk about this even more because, uh, a

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Speaker 1: lot of times, if you are experiencing infertility, you don't

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Speaker 1: want to tell anyone about it, and the downside of

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Speaker 1: that is that you don't have a support system in

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Speaker 1: that case, which research you know finds can can be really,

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Speaker 1: really really helpful. Yeah, and we should say again and

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Speaker 1: emphasize that depression and stress do not cause infertility, but

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Speaker 1: researchers have found that they are associated that people who

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Speaker 1: managed to alleviate their anxiety, stress, and depression they put

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Speaker 1: all of that under the term of distress um have

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Speaker 1: had in studies more success finally getting pregnant. But the

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Speaker 1: thing is, as much as we know about the biological

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Speaker 1: factors that do and don't contribute to male and female infertility,

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Speaker 1: there are still so many myths surrounding it and so

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Speaker 1: much moralizing and stigma that go back millennia and and

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Speaker 1: essentially have been you know, shaming infertility ever since. Yeah,

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00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: and we'll talk about that after a quick break. These days,

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00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: everybody needs a website, but that might seem kind of

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00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 1: intimidating because hello, you're building a website, But not so

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00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: with squares space. Square space sites look professionally designed regardless

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Speaker 1: of skill level, and no coding is required. Squarespace offers

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Speaker 1: you intuitive and easy to use tools, and you can

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Speaker 1: get a free domain if you sign up for a year.

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00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 1: So start your free trial site today at square space

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00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 1: dot com. And when you decide to sign up for

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00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: squar space, make sure to use the offer code mom

400
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 1: stuff to get ten percent off your first purchase square Space.

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00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 1: You should. And now back to the show, So I

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00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 1: feel like a stuff mom ever told you episode would

403
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: almost be remissed if it didn't at some point go

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00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: to ancient Egypt. Yeah, we're not laughing, but it's true.

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Speaker 1: It's true. Um So, Egyptians had a goddess of infertility who,

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Speaker 1: horrifyingly enough, was also the goddess of funerals and afterlife rituals.

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Speaker 1: So right off the bat, nothing but the worst connotations

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Speaker 1: around women who struggle with fertility issues. And they even

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00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: had this weird test They would force feed a beer

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Speaker 1: covered woman dates and if she vomited, she was fertile,

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Speaker 1: which this of course makes me think of the Last

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Speaker 1: Crusade where Sala catches the date in his hand and

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Speaker 1: says bad dates. Sweet I got in today's Indiana Jones

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Speaker 1: reference Indiana Jones and Monty Python. You're on a roll, girl,

415
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: I really am. And we should say too that this

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Speaker 1: timeline is coming from two sources Bustle, a great in

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00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: depth article over at Bustle, and also a timeline from

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Speaker 1: American radio works. And they also looked at ancient India,

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Speaker 1: for instance, who thought that perhaps women were possessed by

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Speaker 1: the goddess of poverty and corruption if she couldn't have

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Speaker 1: children man um Things didn't get much sunnier over in

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Speaker 1: China because if a woman was infertile, and I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: the husband had means, you could just use a concubine instead.

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Speaker 1: That's fine, Yeah, I just bringing a pinch hitter. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And in Rome, just divorce your wife over it. Here,

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Speaker 1: we'll let you out of this contract pretty easily. But

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Speaker 1: it's in ancient Greece where we start to see the origins,

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Speaker 1: maybe not overwhelmingly, but the origins of infertility being thought

429
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,959
Speaker 1: of as like a medical condition and not necessarily a

430
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: moral failing all the time. Overall, though, the responsibility for

431
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: fertility did still lie with the woman and all Hippocrates

432
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 1: had lots of ideas about what led to infertility. Um.

433
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 1: He attributed to things like wait, a tightly closed cervix

434
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: or menstrual retention, which Hippocrates come on. So this whole

435
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 1: idea and this idea of measure retention would stick around

436
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 1: for quite some time. Um. They thought that your period

437
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 1: blood would just hang out inside of you. It wouldn't

438
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: come out, it would just hang out and prevent you

439
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: from being able to have babies slashing around, Yeah, slashing around.

440
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: But I mean you could try praying to Asclepius, who's

441
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: the god of medicine. There were also all of these

442
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: different types of probes, like literally getting things just stuck

443
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 1: up inside of you, trying to like open up that

444
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: that reluctant cervix. Uh. And there were also sorts of

445
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: weird like herbal cocktails that you could try. I bet

446
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: there are still so many herbal cocktails out there for

447
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: infertility as well. Um. And in the medieval times, not surprisingly,

448
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: things took an even darker turn with the publication of

449
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: the Malleus Malfaicarum, which we've talked about before is translated

450
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: to the Hammer of the Witches, and this text, as

451
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: you might assume from the book's title, blamed infertility on

452
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: witches and or the devil, but they also thought that

453
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: it could be an indication that you yourself are a witch.

454
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: To the witch, there's no winning, there's no winning, Like,

455
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: why should a woman who struggles with having children be

456
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: considered evil? I it blows my mind, because that's your function, Caroline,

457
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: that's true. Well. Other culprits during this time included a

458
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: wandering womb, which christ and I. We have that video,

459
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: Christian where you and I were looking for crazy, wandering

460
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: hysterical uteruses by the train tracks. That's right, and I

461
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: ended up finding yours. She gave it to me for christmasing. Yeah,

462
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: and if you don't know what we're talking about, listeners,

463
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: why are you following us on Instagram? Um? You also

464
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: could have a soft womb, which means that it's too

465
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: soft and wet to be able to snag that sperm.

466
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: It's not vel crowe enough and giveaway. If a woman

467
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: had a soft womb, was that she cried all the time.

468
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: I hear soft womb, I think of a soft boiled egg.

469
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: Come on, I eat boiled eggs for breakfast. Um, sorry

470
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: not sorry? Yeah, okay, you you also might They thought

471
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: suffered from a suffocated uterus, which was an idea similar

472
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: to hippocrates idea of menstrual retention. And in terms though

473
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: of this moralizing aspect um, this is going farther back.

474
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: But if we look at Christianity and the whole doctrine

475
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: of female piety and the Bible and the Old Testament,

476
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: there's a story of Hannah who was barren, and she

477
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: begged God for a child, and finally, because she was

478
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: such a pious woman, God rewarded her with six more children.

479
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: And this foster's this whole idea that women without kids

480
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: need to work extra hard to prove their piety, and

481
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: that infertility is punishment for your sins and is reflected

482
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: on women's morality. It probably could be traced back to

483
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: two Eave's curse and on and on. Yeah, And much

484
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 1: like the Greeks were like just pray to Asclepius, the

485
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: Christians urged women to try praying it away or fasting

486
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: it away. And yet it then evolved into a view

487
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: of infertile women as promiscuous, masculine and bossy. Yeah, because

488
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: I mean, what how more unpious can you be than

489
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: if you are both masculine and sleeping around and boss

490
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: saying doing it um. And so during a renaissance, we've

491
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: got this growing medical and popular acceptance of the idea

492
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: that it could also be men's fault. There was this

493
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: concern you guys about cold, thin, watery or feeble sperm.

494
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: There was a concern over whether you had a short penus,

495
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 1: and also what you were eating. This didn't prevent, though,

496
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: Catherine de Medici from being blamed when she and her husband,

497
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: King Henry the Second could not have kids, despite the

498
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 1: fact that he apparently had a malformed penis. Catherine was

499
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: still blamed. So good for popular culture during this time

500
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: where we're finally being like, I wonder if men could

501
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: be to blame ever for this, But it did yet

502
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: didn't help her. Yeah, I mean, there was still the

503
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: belief that it would it would have to be blamed

504
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: on the woman's body shape, her cervical shape, womb temperatures,

505
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: and that infertility could then lead to mental disturbances. So

506
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: we're still living in the whole mentality of the hysterical

507
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: uterus and all of the lady brain problems that that

508
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: can cause. But finally in the seventeenth century, we start

509
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: to learn a little bit about how this works. We

510
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: see sperm under a microscope for the first time, and

511
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: so this leads to more examination of male fertility, and

512
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,239
Speaker 1: by the mid seventeen hundreds, we understood fertilization better and

513
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: infertility was slightly less moralized. But now there is just

514
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: an idea that your menstruation was unbalanced in some way.

515
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 1: So treatments include stimulating sexual pleasure, which was thought to

516
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: be helpful to conception. Yeah, I thought for sure. I

517
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 1: was like, I must have read that wrong, because so

518
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:25,719
Speaker 1: much of what we read and talk about for the

519
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: podcast goes back to like, sexual pleasure is super wrong.

520
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: Women should never experience sexual pleasure. But it's interesting that

521
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: it comes in in terms of fertility, like, well, maybe

522
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: it can't work unless somebody's having a good time. You

523
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: gotta balance that menstruation somehow. Yeah, I know, I hate

524
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: when my menstruation is unbalanced. But by the eighteen hundreds

525
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: we see more surgical advancements and the further development of

526
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:56,479
Speaker 1: the idea that infertility is a mechanical problem caused by

527
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: cervical disorders or a male position of the uter is.

528
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: But you still have ideas about quote unquote luxurious living

529
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 1: and women's misbehavior persisting, and that includes heavy mental activity

530
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: that could potentially damage your other organs. Yeah, Basically there

531
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 1: is a longstanding idea that if a woman thinks too much,

532
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: then she renders herself infertile because I mean, I guess

533
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: her brain heats up our wounds and then that just

534
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: ruins everything. Basically, it puts our uterus is in a microwave.

535
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 1: And now I'm picturing like an Industrial Revolution era factory

536
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: where like wheels and gears and cogs are just like

537
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: working over time, and there's all this steam and like

538
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 1: suddenly the machine just craps out, and that machine is

539
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: you womb, if you womb. But in six we do

540
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 1: get a New York doctor who's the first to argue

541
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 1: that husbands GNA rhea infections could be probably potentially maybe

542
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: likely causing their wives to be sterile. Yeah, because I

543
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: mean with the Industrial Revolution, speaking of which, an urbanization,

544
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: you have more men visiting prostitutes and the rise of

545
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: STDs with that. But of course probably the blame for

546
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: that ultimately would go back to the women and not

547
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: inevitably not the men who were paying for their services. Um.

548
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: But in the early twentieth century, there are lots of

549
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: discoveries around hormones. There's a test developed for blocked fallopian tubes,

550
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: and guidelines published for analyzing sperm count for male fertility.

551
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: So we're starting to figure some things out in a

552
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 1: real way. And in famed Dr John Rock reports the

553
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: first US fertilization of human eggs in a lab dish.

554
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: This is in vitro fertilization. And at the same time

555
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: the public is demanding fertility treatments. They're like, listen, we

556
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: want babies, and we want babies now, and you're gonna

557
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: fix this. Isn't it ironic? Then that Dr John Rock

558
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 1: would then go on to be so instrumental in developing

559
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 1: the very first oral contraceptive for women. Oh my god,

560
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: the more you know, go back and to stuff Mo'm

561
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: never told you dot Com and listen to the episode

562
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: The Father of birth Control, Love it Um. And in

563
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: the late twentieth century, we see the first in vitro

564
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 1: babies being born in the UK. In the US, we

565
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: see sperm injected into the egg for the first time,

566
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,720
Speaker 1: the first successful pregnancy from a frozen egg. I believe

567
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: that was at a fertility place here in Atlanta and

568
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 1: rising at the same time, though, you've got parallel dialogues

569
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 1: around the desire to wait to have kids because you know,

570
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: maybe you're pursuing an education or a career, the desire

571
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: to be child free. So you know, more than ever

572
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 1: during this time, women are starting to be like, hey,

573
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: maybe I don't want to have kids. But you start

574
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: to see almost in response to that, but certainly developing

575
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 1: at the same time, more and more media driven anxieties

576
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 1: about that decision to put off kids and the fact

577
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 1: that you might wind up unable to have them. And Okay,

578
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: so I meant to go back and read some of

579
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: the media coverage that came out when the first in

580
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 1: betro baby I believe her name was Louise brown Um

581
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: was born in the UK to offer some more background

582
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: to the media anxiety about not having kids, because if

583
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: I remember correctly what I've read about that, there was

584
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 1: a lot of controversy about the so called in betro

585
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: babies and people saying back at the time that oh,

586
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: we're just now playing god and this is you know,

587
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: technology gone awry, and so it seems like regardless of

588
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 1: what's what angle we're looking at reproduction, it's like, no,

589
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 1: this is helping someone have a child that they want

590
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 1: to have. But then if we want to delay having

591
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: a child that we may or may not want to

592
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,280
Speaker 1: have them, that's not okay either. And this just leads

593
00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: us into this conversation around the infort to these stigma

594
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: and how a lot of times it does seem like

595
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: a total catch twenty two where they're, like you said, Caroline,

596
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: there's there's kind of no winning. Also because there's this

597
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: longstanding misconception that it's it tends to be an issue

598
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 1: with the woman's body, whereas is we noted at the

599
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 1: top of the podcast, it's like a third of the

600
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: time it's happening with the penis that there, at the

601
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 1: time it's with the vagina, and the other third of

602
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: the time who knows what it is. Yeah, and we

603
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 1: wanted to definitely look globally. We definitely wanted to look

604
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: outside of the United States for this conversation because, like

605
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: I said at the top of the podcast, no matter

606
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,720
Speaker 1: where we are, no matter who you are, shame around

607
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: infertility exists. Despite the fact that Christen said that the

608
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: fertility issues between men and women are pretty much equal,

609
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: and so we were reading these articles. One was from

610
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: the World Health Organization, and one was from Newsweek that

611
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 1: focused specifically on stigma in developing countries. However, that being said,

612
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: I think despite the fact that these articles focused on

613
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 1: developing countries, these issues can be extrapolated to apply to

614
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,760
Speaker 1: women all over the world because women might face everything

615
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 1: from ostracism being considered inauspicious at weddings. Um in some

616
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: Muslim regions, women can only go out if they have

617
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,399
Speaker 1: children with them, or a or a chaperone of some kind.

618
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: But forget running erin solo, ranging all the way to

619
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: abandonment and even abuse. And then there's the whole idea

620
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: that you are a failure in society because of course

621
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 1: this is the role of women. You know, you have

622
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 1: to have kids. And this was something that Rhea Sambuya,

623
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: who's the founder of the Joyce Fertility Support Center in Uganda,

624
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 1: was talking about and she said, quote, our culture demands

625
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: that for a woman to be socially acceptable, she should

626
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: have at least one biological child. Almost all cultures across

627
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: Africa put emphasis on women having children. Marriage without children

628
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: is considered a failure of the two individuals. Yeah, and

629
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: talking about this, William Ambolet, who works with Gank Institute

630
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 1: for Fertility Technology in Belgium, said that if you're infertile

631
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: in some cultures, you're less than a dog. In the

632
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,439
Speaker 1: Hindu religion, as one example, when a woman without a child,

633
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 1: particularly a son, can't go to heaven, she needs a

634
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: son to perform burial ritual rituals, and similar attitudes persist

635
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: in China and Vietnam, where some believe childless folks souls

636
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: can't rest for eternity. And in China, again, children are

637
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 1: seen as gifts from God, so people who are childless

638
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,919
Speaker 1: can be viewed as unworthy or as sinners, which makes

639
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 1: it even harder to seek treatment, even if you can

640
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: afford it, even if you have the money to go

641
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: seek treatment, just that stigma of needing help prevents people

642
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: from doing so. And then there's a whole angle of well,

643
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: if you're infertile, you are a socio economic burden. And

644
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: this was something uh that World Health Organization Productive Health

645
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: and Research Department head Dr Cheryl Vanderpoolt was talking about, saying,

646
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: how uh, you know, if you don't have kids who

647
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: can then grow up to take care of you and

648
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: also have kids who can do household chores and also

649
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: contribute to local economies. Then you're just gonna be a

650
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 1: drain not only on your community, but also to your

651
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 1: wider family, who becomes deeply disappointed for the loss of

652
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 1: what she calls continuity of the family, as well as

653
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: again the contribution to the community. So this only intensifies

654
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: feelings of guilt and shame. Yeah, and the the idea

655
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: that your failure in your marriage. I mean, the World

656
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: Health Organization article quoted a Ugandan woman who said, women

657
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: like me often have to bear the extra marital relationships

658
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 1: that our husbands tend to have. I have overheard other

659
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,399
Speaker 1: women talking about us as being cursed. There's an idea,

660
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 1: especially in polygamous cultures, that it's completely acceptable for a

661
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 1: man to either divorce his wife or take another your

662
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: wife if that culture permits polygamy, simply in the effort

663
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: to have biological children. There was one example talking about

664
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: a particular ethnic group in Mozambique, where it's common for

665
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: women to commit adultery in an attempt to get pregnant

666
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 1: rather than face exclusion from traditional ceremonies and social activities.

667
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: But if you are living in a society where it

668
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: is acceptable for the husband to leave you and father

669
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: children with other women. In the case of infertility, then

670
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 1: he's going to be likely unlikely excuse me, to support

671
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: your efforts to seek fertility treatments, or probably support you

672
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: at all. And with all of this potential extramarital sex

673
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: having going on, this can also lead to STDs. I mean,

674
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:51,359
Speaker 1: if you look at the developing nation in general, there

675
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: are of course issues regardless of fertility with untreated STDs,

676
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: if you have condom taboos, um, and just the cost

677
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: of condoms and contraceptives being too high, and also infections

678
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 1: from female genital mutilation. Yeah, and similarly, uh, there are

679
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 1: many women across the developing world who face infections and

680
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 1: complications from either births or abortions in unsanitary hospitals. And

681
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: you know, we mentioned earlier that sperm count and quality

682
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,879
Speaker 1: can be affected by overexposure to certain chemicals. You've got

683
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: to worry about toxins like lead, which is high in

684
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: places like Mexico City and Cairo, or the chemical dioxin

685
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 1: which is sprayed on crops. But if you get to

686
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 1: the point to where you know that you could benefit

687
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 1: from treatment, there are still cultural hurdles that you would

688
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 1: have to cross because of course, some cultures consider masturbation evil,

689
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: but of course if you need sperm for an IVF treatment,

690
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: masturbation is required. Um. In some Muslim cultures, as the

691
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: w h O pointed out, um there against egg and

692
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: sperm donation because children must have what they call known parents.

693
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:07,959
Speaker 1: That biological relationship is important, it's necessary, and there's even

694
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: hurdles to getting help. This is what's talked about in

695
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:14,720
Speaker 1: a couple of the articles we read where Westerners, for instance,

696
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 1: have little sympathy for countries or cultures that they view

697
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: very in a very self centered way as being overpopulated. Anyway,

698
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 1: this is something that Dr Mammud Fatala talked about in

699
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: the WHO article. He said, if couples are urged to

700
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: postpone or widely spaced pregnancies, it's imperative that they should

701
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: be helped to achieve pregnancy when they do decide in

702
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: the more limited time that they have available. And basically

703
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: this goes back to what um one O B g

704
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: I N in South Africa described as a fertility paradox

705
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: where you have both high fertility rates and high infertility rates,

706
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 1: and those fertility rates really depend on again the use

707
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 1: and desire to use family planning services, what your preferences

708
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: are for family size. For instance, East Africa has a

709
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: much higher rate of family planning and contraception use, whereas

710
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: West Africans still tend to prefer the larger families. But

711
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,839
Speaker 1: then those high infertility rates come from everything we've been

712
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 1: talking about, the health issues, the untreated STDs, and when

713
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,479
Speaker 1: you talk to infertility treatment proponents who are over into

714
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 1: these developing countries, they note that, hey, guys, IVF does

715
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 1: not contribute to overpopulation anymore than saving lives with vaccination does,

716
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 1: and both alleviate suffering. So why would we not try

717
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 1: to help establish whether clinics in general or fertility treatment

718
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: specialists specifically. But the thing is, you know, we've just

719
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 1: been talking for the past few minutes about these situations

720
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 1: happening in areas where you might not be able to

721
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 1: access clean drinking water, much less an IVF treatment. But

722
00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 1: that suffering and this psychological um, guilt, shame, and also

723
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: social stigma and taboo around this is almost universal because

724
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:11,160
Speaker 1: if we look back in the US, where IVF and

725
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: infertility treatments at large might be far more accessible, it's

726
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: still often such a silent battle um There was an

727
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: end up article that we read actually in Self magazine

728
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: was reported on a survey finding that six of the

729
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: infertility patients they talked to hid their struggle to get

730
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 1: pregnant from both friends and family, and more than half

731
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 1: of those people reported that it was easier to tell

732
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,760
Speaker 1: folks that they didn't intend to build a family rather

733
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 1: than share their troubles. And that's I hate that. Oh God,

734
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe that when I read that that it

735
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 1: was it's easier just to say, but I mean, I

736
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 1: can I can believe it, but I can't. Uh. They

737
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: talked to psychologists Linda Applegarth, who says that having difficulty

738
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,879
Speaker 1: getting pregnant can causes much grief as losing a loved one,

739
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,919
Speaker 1: but it's different. She writes, it's chronic and elusive. There's

740
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,879
Speaker 1: a fear that life will be eternally empty. Some feel

741
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: a sense of damage and brokenness, and it goes to

742
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: the heart of who they are. And she writes about

743
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 1: the sense of dread and shame that she sees even

744
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 1: in her own waiting room from women who won't even

745
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: make eye contact with each other, and how it's different

746
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: when you look in the waiting room for people, uh,

747
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: male or female seeking treatment for cancer, for instance, where

748
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 1: patients will maybe trade stories, will maybe ask each other

749
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 1: how they're doing. She's like, there's a distinct difference in

750
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: a fertility waiting room because it's almost like these these

751
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: men and women don't want to acknowledge that they're having

752
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: these struggles. And even when psychological resources are available and

753
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: fertility patients often don't use them. Um. Apple Garth noted

754
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 1: that only about five percent of patients in her clinic

755
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 1: take advantage of the psychological support service. Says, uh that

756
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,359
Speaker 1: it offers despite data showing how helpful that it might be.

757
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 1: I mean, we talked a while back now, um about

758
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 1: the kind of that mind body interaction between anxiety, depression

759
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: and difficulty getting pregnant as well, and a University of

760
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 1: Michigan studies zeroed in on black women specifically in this

761
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 1: country because they're less likely to seek medical helps, so

762
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 1: their struggles end up overlooked. I mean, this is already

763
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 1: an issue where people aren't talking about it, feel they

764
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: can't talk about it, but when when it comes to

765
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: African American women, even fewer are vocalizing their struggle. Of

766
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: the women that this study talked to reported feeling isolated

767
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: and lonely during their efforts to get pregnant, and many

768
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 1: felt that they needed to take on the burden all

769
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 1: by themselves. And it's because of this web of reasons.

770
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 1: It's personal shame that we've talked about, but it's also

771
00:48:55,320 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 1: cultural barriers like stigma against talking about your personal business

772
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 1: or the expectation that Black women should be strong and

773
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 1: resilient enough to handle their problems on their own. There's

774
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 1: also this feeling that from the women that they talked

775
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 1: to of abnormality for not being able to get pregnant,

776
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,399
Speaker 1: and this goes back to what the authors discussed as

777
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: the internalization of stereotypes about African American women's hyper fertility

778
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: or belief in a black fertility mandate. So a lot

779
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 1: of women of whatever race, age background report feeling pressure

780
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,800
Speaker 1: of the motherhood mandate that you're a woman, you should

781
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: have babies, have lots of babies, go forth and be

782
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,280
Speaker 1: multiply and be fruitful. And this was also the case

783
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: for these UH University of Michigan research participants that they

784
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 1: felt like, well, um, you know, I'm a an African

785
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 1: American woman, I'm a black woman. I'm supposed to have

786
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 1: lots of children or that's common in this culture, or

787
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,400
Speaker 1: it's expected of me. It should be easy for me

788
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 1: to get pregnant, exactly, And so a lot of them

789
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 1: hold the researchers that infertility is not something that's supposed

790
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: to happen to me. It's something that happens to rich

791
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,399
Speaker 1: white people who can, you know, pay all this money

792
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 1: to have treatments done well. And speaking of you know,

793
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 1: the the wealth factor, I mean that absolutely is one

794
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: of the reasons why women of color are less likely

795
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,359
Speaker 1: to seek treatment. But there's also the issue of having

796
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 1: tense relationships with doctors. I mean, this is something that

797
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 1: if you start looking in medical studies about like patient

798
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 1: doctor interactions, Um, things do shift when uh, it is

799
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: a white person sitting on the exam table versus people

800
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 1: of color. But regardless of race, women dealing with that

801
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 1: motherhood mandate that you described, Caroline, that every woman should

802
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 1: have kids, or that if you don't have kids then

803
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 1: you're somehow less valuable or a less than woman. Um,

804
00:50:54,920 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 1: that is a really powerful myth that I think is

805
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 1: really easy for us to believe because it's seen as

806
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 1: just this basic feminine act. It's just something that's inevitable.

807
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 1: You know, we take birth control in order to not

808
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 1: get pregnant. All we're taught a lot of times in

809
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 1: at least American sex education classes is that you know,

810
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,280
Speaker 1: if we have sex, then automatically we're going to get pregnant.

811
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 1: So it's no surprise then that we have so many

812
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 1: misconceptions about a how challenging it can be to get pregnant,

813
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 1: and how common infertility is. And I think that this

814
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: is part of what should be considered comprehensive sex education,

815
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 1: ongoing sex education. Yeah, and what all this spoils down to,

816
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: basically is that this constant shame and overwhelming stigma contributes

817
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 1: to women not talking about their experiences, women and men

818
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 1: not sharing their experiences, which then translates into a lack

819
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: of advocacy on a governmental level. I mean, if people

820
00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 1: aren't talking about it the same way that they talk

821
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: about breast cancer, for instance, there's not as much of

822
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 1: a push for research dollars or for answers and solutions.

823
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 1: Um Barbara Clura, who's the executive director of Resolve, the

824
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 1: National Infertility Association based in Virginia, so as we can

825
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:16,439
Speaker 1: only get a handful of our own volunteers to speak

826
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 1: out because of the shame and because we have some

827
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 1: little patient advocacy, we have so little progress. And I

828
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: highly recommend that if you are someone you know struggles

829
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 1: with this issue, you go over to Resolve the website.

830
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 1: It's a very comprehensive resource. It talks about everything from

831
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: the actual infertility struggle, to mental health issues to talking

832
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 1: about issues of insurance coverage. Um so it's definitely a

833
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,959
Speaker 1: great resource. But this is yet another women's health issue

834
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 1: where we see so much, so much shame and internalization

835
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: of of something that your body is doing and or

836
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 1: your partner's body is doing. And we can all benefit

837
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 1: from having a wider, more, a wider and louder conversation

838
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah. Mean, and it's a women's health issue,

839
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 1: but it's also a men's health issue as well. And

840
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned you know, men's silence around it too,

841
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 1: because one of the studies we looked at evaluated the

842
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 1: psychological impacts of infertility for both men and women, and

843
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 1: while women in the study were likelier to experience negative

844
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 1: psychological repercussions, many of the men did as well. So

845
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: as with our conversation about say, miscarriage. It's definitely something Um,

846
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,359
Speaker 1: I mean, and again we were now talking more in

847
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: straight couple of context, but it's still something that men

848
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 1: need to feel more welcome and comfortable talking about as well,

849
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 1: because you know, a third of the time it could

850
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 1: be their bodies which might be causing the issue. But Caroline,

851
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 1: before we wrap up, I did want to ask your

852
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 1: opinion on something that came up in our research about

853
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:03,840
Speaker 1: infertility being considered or a disability, which some think would

854
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: be helpful for getting more insurance coverage for infertility treatments.

855
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 1: But when I read that, I my my instinct was

856
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 1: to not entirely agree because it seems like classifying infertility

857
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: as a disability only reinforces the idea that it's women's

858
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: role and purpose to reproduce. Yeah, I mean, I think

859
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 1: that that's a conversation that literally happens anytime anything is

860
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 1: classified as a disability, because it almost makes it sound

861
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 1: like this defines you, and you know, what your body

862
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:47,720
Speaker 1: does does not define you. Your your more than your body. UM.

863
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 1: That being said, you know someone who doesn't struggle with

864
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 1: these issues. It's it's hard for me to weigh in

865
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 1: other than to say if something is classified a certain

866
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 1: way according to the government. It helps you get insurance coverage.

867
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: I see that as a positive. Um it's I think

868
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 1: it's less so in our conversations that we had around

869
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 1: pregnancy and the way that like maternity leave and paid

870
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 1: family leave happens. But as far as language goes, I

871
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:18,320
Speaker 1: think it's a shame that it has to be called

872
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:22,959
Speaker 1: a disability for that very important coverage to happen. Yeah,

873
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:26,240
Speaker 1: I mean, because I just wonder, um and and listeners,

874
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: I really hope that some of you can fill us

875
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:33,839
Speaker 1: in on this. I wonder about people who find out

876
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 1: that they are infertile and they're okay with it, and

877
00:55:37,160 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 1: whether that leads to conflicted feelings as well, because there

878
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 1: is an assumption that if you are inferrald that it

879
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 1: is a shameful and sad tragedy. But I have a

880
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,240
Speaker 1: feeling that there there are people who are are totally

881
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 1: fine and live perfectly happy live. So I mean, again,

882
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,319
Speaker 1: this is just I mean, I'm just I'm I'm genuinely

883
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 1: curious to hear from people what these experien rances are

884
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 1: because I don't know at all. Um So, listeners, we

885
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:08,280
Speaker 1: definitely want to hear from you on this issue, because again,

886
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 1: this is something that we don't talk about nearly enough.

887
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot Com is where

888
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 1: you can email us. You can also tweet us at

889
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:19,480
Speaker 1: Mom's Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've got

890
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you right now.

891
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 1: I have a letter here from April in response to

892
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 1: our knitting episode. She says. Let me start by saying,

893
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 1: how much to enjoy your podcast. Thank you, April. We

894
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: enjoy having you listen. She says, as I was listening

895
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 1: to the podcast on knitting this evening, you mentioned knitting

896
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:43,239
Speaker 1: during the World Wars was propaganda. This could not be

897
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,359
Speaker 1: further from the truth. From the Civil War to World

898
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 1: War One and World War Two, the knitting of socks

899
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 1: was very important. Foot rot was a constant battle. Soldiers

900
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 1: could not march and walk long distances without good socks

901
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,320
Speaker 1: that helped keep the moisture away. Can you imagine trying

902
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 1: to walk in mill military boots with wet holy socks,

903
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: or even without socks altogether. Soldiers had blisters and would

904
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 1: develop infections. Their feet would literally wrought. The knitting of

905
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:12,400
Speaker 1: socks was as important as the recycling of metal or

906
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: the rationing of sugar. It was not just a way

907
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 1: to keep the women and children busy or make them

908
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 1: feel like they were part of the war effort. It

909
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 1: was an important part of the war effort. I am

910
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: a knitter and a feminist in the age of forty one.

911
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 1: I am currently working on my dissertation for my PhD

912
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 1: in history. My focus is women's history, and my dissertation

913
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 1: is actually focused around women and the crafts that bring

914
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 1: them together, things such as knitting and sewing. I also

915
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 1: am an adjoinct history teacher at a local junior college

916
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: and I teach a women's history class I put together.

917
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 1: In this class, we have a section on women and

918
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 1: the war effort, and we talked about knitting as a

919
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 1: big part of the lives of those at home. Thank

920
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 1: you for all the hard work you do. I just

921
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:53,160
Speaker 1: don't think you overlooked this one important thing, So thank

922
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 1: you for filling us in April. Well, I have a

923
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 1: delightful letter here also about our knitting episode, and it's

924
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 1: from Elias, who writes, I'm eighteen years old and I

925
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 1: actually just started listening to your podcast in December. I'm

926
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 1: a big fan of stuff you should know, so I

927
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 1: thought i'd give another house Stuff Works podcast to try.

928
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 1: By the title, I thought I'd learned about all kinds

929
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: of interesting secret things my mom never told me. So

930
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:15,960
Speaker 1: I was a bit surprised when it turned out to

931
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:18,920
Speaker 1: be a podcast about feminism, but I'm so glad I

932
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 1: decided to keep listening. While before I only had a

933
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 1: vague understanding of what feminism really means, after just a

934
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: handful of episodes, I already feel so much more educated

935
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 1: on the social topic and have a much better grasp

936
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 1: on its scope and importance. Thanks for being such informative,

937
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 1: friendly and charming podcasters. Well, thank you, Elias. And I

938
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 1: think I might be mispronouncing your name, so I apologize

939
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 1: um if I am. But anyway, getting on to knitting,

940
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 1: Elliots wrote, anyway, the real reason I wanted to email

941
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:49,919
Speaker 1: you is because I'm a guy who knows how to knit.

942
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 1: You see, a few summers ago, when I was fourteen,

943
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 1: I went to a family camp with my extended family,

944
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 1: and one day we were surprised to find that the

945
00:58:57,400 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 1: arts and craft staff would be teaching knitting to anyone

946
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 1: who'd like to learn. Two of my aunts and I

947
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 1: thought it sounded like a fun idea, so We gave

948
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 1: it try, but as you were both saying, it's very

949
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 1: difficult to learn. The steps were so precise and hard

950
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 1: to remember, and I made so many mistakes that my

951
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 1: script first scarf turned out to be more like a

952
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 1: scratchy rainbow shaped cloth. Still, it was fun and a

953
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 1: little addicting, So when I got home, I looked at

954
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 1: the steps on YouTube to really get them down, bought

955
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:25,080
Speaker 1: some fresh yard, and tried again. After a few days,

956
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 1: I finally got it. Now I have an awesome black

957
00:59:27,840 --> 00:59:31,160
Speaker 1: and blue scarf as proof of my dedicated work. So

958
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 1: word to everyone, no matter how old or what gender

959
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 1: you are, anyone can love to knit. Well. Thank you

960
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:42,439
Speaker 1: so much for that story and for listening, and thanks

961
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 1: to all of you for your letters. Keep them coming

962
00:59:44,720 --> 00:59:47,440
Speaker 1: to mom stuff at how stuffworks dot com and brilling

963
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:49,160
Speaker 1: all of our social media as well as all of

964
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:52,120
Speaker 1: our blogs, videos and podcasts with our sources so you

965
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 1: can learn more about infertility and other topics. Head on

966
00:59:55,440 --> 01:00:02,920
Speaker 1: over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com For

967
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Visit how

968
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:14,360
Speaker 1: staff works dot com.