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Speaker 1: Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production from iHeartRadio. Hey there,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland.

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Speaker 1: I'm an executive producer with iHeart Podcasts and how the

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Speaker 1: Tech are you? Yes? Our cavalcade of special guests continues today.

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Speaker 1: My dear friend and next door neighbor back when we

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Speaker 1: were working at Pont City Market, Annie and her co

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Speaker 1: host Samantha from Stuff Mom Never Told You are here.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having us. This is very exciting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I love that we finally get to work together.

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Speaker 3: It's been years since we've been in the same network,

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Speaker 3: and now I get to officially work with you. Amazing.

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited.

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Speaker 1: I'm excited too. Like I've seen Samantha, we've met in

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Speaker 1: person a couple of times, but we have never had

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Speaker 1: a chance to work on a show together. Will I

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Speaker 1: was listening to stuff Mom Never Told You recently with

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Speaker 1: I think it was Joey who was on talking about

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Speaker 1: dating in New York, and it made me laugh so

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Speaker 1: hard because Joey's younger than my marriage is. I'm in

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Speaker 1: my twenty eighth year of being married and so listening

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Speaker 1: to like the trials and tribulations of dating in the

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Speaker 1: modern age. I was sitting there thinking about back before

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Speaker 1: I was married and what dating was like. And the

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Speaker 1: funny thing is I met my partner online, but it

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Speaker 1: was in a telnet chat room, which anyone out there

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Speaker 1: who knows what a tellnet chat room is welcome to

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Speaker 1: being old.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing.

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Speaker 3: I really kind of want that story now.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, tell you why you have me on your show,

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Speaker 1: and I'll tell you all about it, Okay, because here's

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Speaker 1: the thing, I got no tech stuffs left to talk

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Speaker 1: about this kind of stuff. I'm out on January tenth.

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Speaker 1: January tenth, I am gone. And just so, just so

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Speaker 1: y'all know, I mean, I don't think you even are

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Speaker 1: aware of who the new hosts are, but certainly my

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Speaker 1: listeners aren't because I haven't told them yet. That's going

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Speaker 1: to be a New year reveal, So it does. Have

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Speaker 1: you not done the email? Oh no, you're starting off

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Speaker 1: with a Chad GBT savior or demon demon? No you

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Speaker 1: know it already. Uh No, Today you brought forth a

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Speaker 1: topic that I was so excited by because, as it

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Speaker 1: you discovered once our notes started to fill out, it

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Speaker 1: turns out I'm a big fan of this particular genre

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Speaker 1: of video games. You wanted to talk about cozy games?

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, indeed, And I think this is gonna be

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Speaker 2: really fun because I think we're all coming at this

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Speaker 2: from different experiences, so we're really excited to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: One of the reasons we wanted to talk about it

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Speaker 2: is one because Samantha's had like an amazing cozy journey.

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Speaker 2: But to as you kind of alluded to with chat GPT,

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Speaker 2: we were trying to think of a tech topic that

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Speaker 2: wasn't going to be very depressing, and it was a

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Speaker 2: little difficult because right now is a high stress time

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Speaker 2: a lot of us maybe are looking for some relief,

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Speaker 2: especially as the year comes to a quotes, So we

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Speaker 2: thought cozy gaming, that's that's a good topic.

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Speaker 1: Much better than let's talk about Elon Musk. So I appreciate.

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Speaker 3: It, right. I mean, we definitely went in to talk

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Speaker 3: about we could talk about deep fakes, Oh no, that's

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Speaker 3: really sad. We could talk about you know, all those

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Speaker 3: other AI ventures. But coming back to cozy games, which

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Speaker 3: is something that I have found joy in in the

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Speaker 3: last few years and really have had Annie and even

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Speaker 3: our super producer Christina navigate me through this world because

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Speaker 3: gaming is not something that I would typically would say

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Speaker 3: is something that I do up until recently, and the

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Speaker 3: cozy gaming world really has made it so much more welcoming,

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Speaker 3: I think, especially for people for us and loss people

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Speaker 3: who are jumping into gaming.

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Speaker 1: World absolutely and even old fogies like me like I

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Speaker 1: reach a certain point where my hand eye coordination isn't

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Speaker 1: what it used to be. I don't have the twitch

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Speaker 1: skills of the young ands out there. I was raised

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Speaker 1: on games like the pac Man's you know, and the

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Speaker 1: Gala is not so much the call of duties. And

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Speaker 1: also I never really like competition. I always preferred collaborative

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Speaker 1: and cooperative games. Even with board games, I much prefer

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Speaker 1: that style. So cozy games speaks to me because I

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Speaker 1: like an environment that fosters joy and wants all the

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Speaker 1: participants to experience that joy, not joy that one person

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Speaker 1: feels at the expense of everybody else. Not that there's

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Speaker 1: anything necessarily wrong with that kind of gaming, it just

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Speaker 1: doesn't appeal.

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Speaker 2: To me right, And I know all the gamers in

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Speaker 2: my life enjoy cozy games, whereas people who like cozy

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Speaker 2: games the same isn't true about non cozy games, so

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Speaker 2: I feel like they're very welcoming to people, and I

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Speaker 2: guess that brings us to the question, just to start off,

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Speaker 2: what is cozy gaming. I know you've talked about it before,

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Speaker 2: but we like to have a good solid definition here,

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Speaker 2: and people disagree. People like to disagree about what exactly

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Speaker 2: it is. But they're often described as something that's somewhat

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Speaker 2: mindless but still involved. They usually don't have violence or

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Speaker 2: competition in the same way non cozy games have them.

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Speaker 2: Players can't really lose or feel guilty about letting someone

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Speaker 2: down like in a multiplayer game. They usually have soothing

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Speaker 2: in pretty graphics and music, fairly simple task and controls.

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Speaker 2: They're inclusive and safe for all. They're low stress and

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Speaker 2: sort of a vibe, sort of a feeling, and after

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Speaker 2: you play them, you generally feel calm and happy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's some overlap with the genre of casual games,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like the term casual games is almost

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Speaker 1: like a kind of like it's like shade right, people

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Speaker 1: quote unquote real gamers will dismiss something that falls into

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Speaker 1: casual games. And certainly there are bad casual games out there.

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Speaker 1: There are bad games in every genre. It would be

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Speaker 1: disingenuous to say every game that falls into the cozy

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Speaker 1: or casual bucket is great, but the same is true

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Speaker 1: for any other genre as well. And I think the

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Speaker 1: quote unquote true gamers, well, there's a lot of air

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Speaker 1: quotes I'm doing, which is weird for an audio podcast,

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Speaker 1: but I think that they would paint all of them

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Speaker 1: with the same brush, and I think that's unfortunate, it's reductive,

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Speaker 1: it's not surprising for at least certain segments of the

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Speaker 1: gaming culture. We'll get into more of that later as well,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, I think there's certainly a real place for this,

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Speaker 1: particularly in a world where people are trying to find

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Speaker 1: ways to reduce anxiety, to be able to take their

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Speaker 1: mind off things that might be troubling them while not

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Speaker 1: engaging in an activity that is just inherently harmful to themselves.

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Speaker 3: And I think it's interesting because when we have these

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Speaker 3: conversations about gaming in general, the biggest money maker out

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Speaker 3: there and people really want to discredit it, is mobile gaming.

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Speaker 3: And that was one of the big conversations we had

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Speaker 3: when we talked about cozy gaming and what they want

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Speaker 3: to qualify as true gaming. And again, you kind of

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Speaker 3: talked about this with the real gamers quote unquote, but

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Speaker 3: the level of competition that's there. But when you look

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Speaker 3: at what is making a dent in capitalism, which you

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Speaker 3: know that counts for more for anything else, right, it

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Speaker 3: is mobile gaming. It is the number one money maker

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Speaker 3: for that gaming industry. So it's interesting when we have

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Speaker 3: this conversation and the amount of women and marginalized people

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Speaker 3: who actually have access to something that is easily there

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Speaker 3: and really great to take your mind off things. Is

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Speaker 3: playing five minutes of what used to be snake y'all

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Speaker 3: remember that game? Oh yeah, you know, like those types

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Speaker 3: of games that have come back a little bit, and

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Speaker 3: it helped with dementia and help with like everyday warplay.

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Speaker 3: It's actually a really great way to go. But people

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Speaker 3: want to dismiss it so quickly because they don't want

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Speaker 3: to say this is true gaming.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and yet these are the games that often can

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Speaker 1: go viral across all demographics. Like I wouldn't necessarily say

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Speaker 1: that wordle falls into the category of cozy game, but

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Speaker 1: certainly a casual game. And I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: guys remember this, and I apologize for guys. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you folks have remembered this, but about four

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Speaker 1: years ago, there was this little bug that was going

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Speaker 1: around and like a lot of us were like stuck

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Speaker 1: at home, and then it seemed like this game called

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Speaker 1: Wordle brought everybody together in a way. And back then

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Speaker 1: before it was x X was this thing called Twitter,

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Speaker 1: which wasn't terrible. I mean it was bad, but it

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Speaker 1: wasn't as bad. And I just remember, like so many

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Speaker 1: of my friends would their Twitter status would just be

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Speaker 1: their Wordle score for the day, Like for the first

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Speaker 1: like three weeks, I was like, I don't know what

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Speaker 1: the hell these boxes mean.

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Speaker 3: I had that moment a lot, and I will say,

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Speaker 3: you know what, for those out there, this was a

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Speaker 3: pickup line. One dude, you's a chill group of us

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Speaker 3: talking about Wordle. So it opens up so much when

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Speaker 3: you talk about these mobile games.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's a great unifier.

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Speaker 2: It does. And that's kind of going back to what

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Speaker 2: you've said about preferring those kind of cooperative, collaborative games.

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Speaker 2: A lot of these are really fun because when the

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Speaker 2: pandemic happened, we were looking for both stress relief but

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Speaker 2: also some companionship, some way to connect to other people,

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Speaker 2: and these games were great for that. Yeah, you go

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Speaker 2: on Twitter and see someone's wordle score and you're like, oh, Like,

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Speaker 2: it was just a really fun way when we couldn't

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Speaker 2: hang out in person necessarily and share these experiences. And

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Speaker 2: I think that is a big part of cozy games

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Speaker 2: as well. I am kind of shy, so I usually

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Speaker 2: played cozy games by myself, but it is a big

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Speaker 2: part for some people that you can connect with other

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Speaker 2: people online in this way.

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Speaker 1: Well, And even though I'm an extrovert, I am like you.

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Speaker 1: I often for most of my cozy gaming I'm playing

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Speaker 1: the single player version of that. I mean, I love collaboration,

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Speaker 1: but there's so few games out there that I connect

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Speaker 1: with that are also collaborative and I feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: welcomed into that community. Sometimes you get into a game

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Speaker 1: pretty late, and it's like if you're the first new

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Speaker 1: friend in an established group of friends that have been

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Speaker 1: established for like ten years, and they're all joking and

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Speaker 1: using references that the rest of the group knows and

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Speaker 1: you do not, and you're like, well, this is a mistake.

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Speaker 1: I should probably go somewhere else. And that's kind of

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Speaker 1: how I feel for some of these online communities, and

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Speaker 1: it's no shade on them either. They're having fun with

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Speaker 1: their established communities. It's just sometimes it can be hard

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Speaker 1: to make an inroad. But the games themselves, the things

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Speaker 1: that make a cozy game cozy, that welcoming sense of joy,

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Speaker 1: that's something that I certainly could use more of in

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Speaker 1: my life, and I love that we have. I have

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Speaker 1: lots of different examples that we'll talk about, and you know,

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Speaker 1: not that much crossover, although there is one game on

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Speaker 1: Annie's list that I have to a billion percent back up.

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Speaker 1: But it's also the game that you can't talk about

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Speaker 1: because to really enjoy it, you need to go in

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Speaker 1: knowing nothing about it. Gone Home is the game. Oh yes,

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Speaker 1: so good, but you can't. Don't don't look anything up,

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Speaker 1: don't read about it, just play it because I cried

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Speaker 1: at that game. That one made me cry. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want to. I want to chat about some of

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Speaker 1: the examples we have here, Like you you have some

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Speaker 1: of the popular examples with Animal Crossing. I mean that

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Speaker 1: one went crazy popular in the pandemic. It came out

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Speaker 1: just as the pandemic was creating lockdown, and like it

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Speaker 1: was like it became a pop culture moment in circles

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Speaker 1: that I follow at any rate.

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, oh yes, it came out at like the

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Speaker 2: right time. And I think this is actually a great

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Speaker 2: segue into talking about how we all got into cozy games,

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Speaker 2: because I remember when that came out. Animal Crossing New

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Speaker 2: Horizons is one of the big examples people give for

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Speaker 2: cozy games. The other one is Starty Valley. But I

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Speaker 2: kind of going back to your original point, I didn't

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Speaker 2: start playing Animal Crossing until two years later, and it

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Speaker 2: was because Samantha was like, you got to try these

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Speaker 2: cozy games.

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Speaker 3: So I was trying to use her for fruit.

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Speaker 1: Oh of course, yeah. I mean those turnips aren't going

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Speaker 1: to grow themselves, right.

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Speaker 2: Samantha was using me, But she's been my real like

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Speaker 2: open door into this world. So I thought we could

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Speaker 2: all talk about how our experiences and how we got

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Speaker 2: into it, starting with you, Samantha.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I have to put a big caveat on the

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Speaker 3: games that I play. I am not really good with

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Speaker 3: my hand eye coordination, as you were talking about, it's

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Speaker 3: not great. I am that one person that when we

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Speaker 3: play Mario Kart that I continuously fall off the track

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Speaker 3: like that is my ra And you're gonna know about

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Speaker 3: it because I'm like I'm off, I fell again, I'm

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Speaker 3: off again, and I'm always last place. So for me,

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Speaker 3: trying to just stay on track is my thing, and

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Speaker 3: that's that's kind of the theme through everything. So with

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Speaker 3: animal Crossing, even though is I love the fishing part,

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Speaker 3: I love the collecting and swimming. I just did it recently.

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Speaker 3: The new thing right now with the Christmas being around,

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Speaker 3: which we just had an episode about holiday themed animal crossing,

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Speaker 3: you can build a snowman. I was like, oh wow, okay,

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Speaker 3: I want to do this. I have dropped every every

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Speaker 3: snowball off the edge of something or crashed it into

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Speaker 3: a house, and I'm very upset about this.

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Speaker 2: I want you to know.

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Speaker 3: But like I'd love the trying to find the peoples

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Speaker 3: to come to my island. It does feel like I'm

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Speaker 3: starting a bit of a cult, and then also just

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Speaker 3: keeping a campground, like like that's my whole experience is

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Speaker 3: to collect all the fish, collect all the fossils, which

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Speaker 3: I've done y'all, but I haven't gotten all the art pieces.

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Speaker 2: I have.

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Speaker 3: Any made sure to brag to me about that island.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of sad because it still again looks like

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Speaker 3: a campground. But I'm like that's what I want. I

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Speaker 3: want to be a retreat into the campground, not.

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Speaker 1: Like not like, hey, let's turn this into a bustling metropolis.

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Speaker 1: Is it Animal Crossing where the snowman will criticize you

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Speaker 1: if you don't get the balls just right? Yes? No, yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Is it trying to give me like, oh, it'll be

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Speaker 2: like you tried your best?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the judgment so like if the head is too

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Speaker 1: small or too large in relation to the body, and

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Speaker 1: the Snowman's like, what are you even doing?

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Speaker 2: See?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, now now I'm even more upset. And I even't

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Speaker 3: even done it. I haven't even I can't even get

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Speaker 3: it together to make one.

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Speaker 1: So I haven't played Animal Crossing. One are the YouTube

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Speaker 1: video channels I watch outside Xbox did a whole thing

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Speaker 1: about it. When I saw that, it made me laugh

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Speaker 1: so hard. They're talking about how you know certain games

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Speaker 1: that that neg you when you when you when you

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Speaker 1: when you mess up a basic thing in the game.

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Speaker 1: But like, legitimately this is challenging to dude, get it,

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Speaker 1: just because it's hard to judge in the game when

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Speaker 1: you're at that level. But overall, Animal Crossing certainly checks

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Speaker 1: all those cozy boxes so you got into that. That

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Speaker 1: was kind of your your journey into cozy gaming.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that happened is my partner is

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Speaker 3: a gamer and loves to play games, and he's been

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Speaker 3: trying to get me into gaming in general. So Overcooked

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Speaker 3: was his beginning with me. Huge mistake. Again, I'm not

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Speaker 3: competitive yelling at me about cooking something just right, yea

293
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Speaker 3: all over the place. We did not fight, I will

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Speaker 3: give you that. So our relationship is strong. I've determined that.

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Speaker 3: But he then like I said, let's try Animal Crossing.

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Speaker 3: I think you'll like this, and it did the trying

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Speaker 3: to find the again, like finding the biggest fish that's

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Speaker 3: worth the most amount of money. Let's do this getting

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Speaker 3: the singer to come onto our island. I love it.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you know, Like you said, you

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Speaker 3: haven't played this, Jonathan.

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Speaker 1: I haven't, but I've I listened to a lot of

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Speaker 1: shows of people who have played it, so I feel

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Speaker 1: kind of like I've semi experienced elements of the game

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Speaker 1: just through osmosis.

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Speaker 3: I think you should try it. I would be interested

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Speaker 3: to see what kind of village island you create. Like

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Speaker 3: I have a good friend who's made his entire island goth,

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Speaker 3: but like chic Goth, I don't understand how that happened.

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Speaker 3: He has displays everywhere and Annie, well, Annie, you need

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Speaker 3: to talk about your island obviously, Okay.

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Speaker 2: So basically what happened was Samantha went.

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Speaker 1: Any story that starts with basically what happened.

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Speaker 2: Basically, Samantha went from like, I'm not a gamer to

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Speaker 2: hear all these games you need to play, and she

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Speaker 2: was like, we're going to do an episode. It's research based,

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Speaker 2: so you need to go play these cozy games. And

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Speaker 2: she gave me all these recommendations. One of them was

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Speaker 2: Animal Crossing. And the funny thing about me is that

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Speaker 2: I'm a completionist. I want those achievements. So I knew

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Speaker 2: That's why I didn't start playing Animal Crossing, because I

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Speaker 2: knew it never ends really, so I was like, I'm

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Speaker 2: just going to be trapped in some hellscape where I'm

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Speaker 2: checking the mail, like I don't want this, but she

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Speaker 2: convinced me to do it, and I of course made

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Speaker 2: mine very Star Wars semed. It's got a Star song,

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Speaker 2: it's got a Star Wars flag. Everybody says Star Wars slogans.

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Speaker 2: But because I'm such a completionist. I completed that damn

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Speaker 2: museum and I quit.

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Speaker 1: I'm done this and no further.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. But it's just really funny because I know I'd

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Speaker 2: like have the exact opposite experience with cozy games, where

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Speaker 2: I'm like, no, I'll play my like horror game a

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Speaker 2: million times and it's great, But a cozy game, I'm

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Speaker 2: so stressed because I where's the end?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear you. Yeah, there's certain ones where you

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Speaker 1: can theoretically reach the end of the content, but even

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Speaker 1: those occasionally will get massive updates and it'll you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's like the Mafia. Just when you thought you

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Speaker 1: were out that you get pulled right back in. And

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Speaker 1: So I have a whole bunch of games that are

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Speaker 1: listed on this section, but I'm just going to talk

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Speaker 1: about one and maybe mention the others when we chat

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Speaker 1: about some of our favorites. But Starduck Valley is the

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Speaker 1: game they got me into cozy games. Now. Stardu Valley

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Speaker 1: has some elements to it that also include, like if

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Speaker 1: you're going into the minds, there's combat and stuff, but

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Speaker 1: that's not the prime focus of the game. That's one element.

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Speaker 1: Most of it is about setting up a farm and

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Speaker 1: creating relationships with all the villagers that live in the

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Speaker 1: little town, and maybe even finding yourself a match. There

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Speaker 1: are certain members of the town who are romancible. You can,

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Speaker 1: if you're a jerk, get into a committed relationship and

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Speaker 1: then ruin it by flirting with somebody else. It's it's

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Speaker 1: such fun. Concerned Ape is the name of the guy

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Speaker 1: or the handle of the guy who created it. He's

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Speaker 1: got another game that's that's been in development for years

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Speaker 1: now that I am highly anticipated, called Haunted Chocolate. Cannot

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Speaker 1: wait to see that. It sounds like it's going to

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Speaker 1: have a lot of sort of shared DNA the Stardoo

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Speaker 1: Valley but yeah, Stardio Valley. I literally have more than

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Speaker 1: one hundred hours of game time in that game because

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Speaker 1: I would start over and try different things, like well,

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Speaker 1: what if I start a relationship with this village or

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00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 1: instead of that one? What happens? Can I fix him?

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Speaker 1: The answer to that last question is no. Just like

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Speaker 1: in real life, like I had never done any video

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Speaker 1: game modding. I've been playing games since I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: and I'm fifty. So when I say when I was

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Speaker 1: a kid, I was playing games like River Raid, which

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Speaker 1: by the way, developed by a woman, Carol Shaw, phenomenal

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Speaker 1: game that was on the Atari twenty six hundred. But

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Speaker 1: I've been playing games since I was a kid. It

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Speaker 1: was the cozy games I started playing really with Starduo Valley.

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Speaker 1: I got to the point where I was modding it,

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Speaker 1: which added new villagers and new areas to explore, and

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Speaker 1: just recently this past year, Concerned Ape released a huge

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00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,760
Speaker 1: update to the game to make it one point six.

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Speaker 1: So even in a game like that where at first

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00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,240
Speaker 1: it feels like there's a beginning, middle, and end, and

381
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,359
Speaker 1: then you can continue past the end, but the story's

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00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,480
Speaker 1: pretty much over, it's never a guarantee because some of

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00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,320
Speaker 1: those cozy developers just figure out, hey, I want to

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Speaker 1: add a little more to that world I created, and

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Speaker 1: next thing you know, you're right back in it. And

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Speaker 1: it's crazy too, because of course, the sale in the

387
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,159
Speaker 1: case of Stardu Valley has already been made. It's not

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Speaker 1: one of those games where it's like a subscription based

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00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 1: thing where you've you know, you're paying every month to

390
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,680
Speaker 1: play this game. You purchased it already. Concerned Ape has

391
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,960
Speaker 1: no obligation to keep developing this title, and yet he

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00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,960
Speaker 1: continues to do it, So U a true hero, I would,

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00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,080
Speaker 1: I would say, but yeah, that was the game that

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00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,040
Speaker 1: pulled me into it, and since then there are countless

395
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Speaker 1: games I would argue fall into the cozy category that

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Speaker 1: I have, I have explored and I can't wait to

397
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Speaker 1: talk more about coziness. But my producer is holding up

398
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 1: a knife and pointing it at me, so I think

399
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 1: we need to take a quick ad break or else

400
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:12,680
Speaker 1: things are going to get an awful lot less cozy.

401
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 1: All right, we're back, and my producer has given me

402
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,960
Speaker 1: the friends symbol of smashing two wrists together, so I

403
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:21,680
Speaker 1: think we all know what that means. It means it's

404
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:29,200
Speaker 1: time to get back to talking about cozy games.

405
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Speaker 3: Never part of gold, Yes, but yeah no, I was

406
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 3: wondering because Stardoo Valley, Animal Crossing and I have another game,

407
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,280
Speaker 3: Cozy Grove are all real time games I have. Like

408
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,240
Speaker 3: my partner loves Started Valley again. Our executive producer, Christina

409
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 3: loves Stardoo Valley. If you let them go, do they

410
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 3: like start like all their food rots? Does that all

411
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 3: that happen? Does all the crops and all that they've

412
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 3: worked so hard? Do they go away?

413
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 1: Crops will stay ready for harvesting until you harvest them

414
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 1: or if the season changes. So each season is twenty

415
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:11,359
Speaker 1: eight days long, and so once once spring turns to summer,

416
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,440
Speaker 1: for example, any spring crops you had that were either

417
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:20,119
Speaker 1: still in the growing phase or were unharvested, because you know,

418
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,679
Speaker 1: some crops take longer to grow than others if you

419
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 1: don't plant it out properly. I mean there are people

420
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Speaker 1: who make spreadsheets with this stuff. I never got that

421
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 1: tactical with it. Let's say you plant something that takes

422
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,439
Speaker 1: you know, eight days to grow, but you did it

423
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 1: on three days before the end of the season. Well,

424
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 1: then once the first day of summer starts, all of

425
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,120
Speaker 1: those crops are now dead and you have to clear

426
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,880
Speaker 1: them with a scythe and then start over with summer

427
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 1: crops because spring crops won't survive into summer. With a

428
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 1: few exceptions, there's some crops that do span two different seasons,

429
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 1: So if you plant them early in season one, they'll

430
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 1: go all the way through season two, and some of

431
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 1: them will continually generate vegetables or fruit, depending upon what

432
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,639
Speaker 1: the crop is. So like corn, corn keeps producing, but

433
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,280
Speaker 1: if it's something like a melon, once you harvest it,

434
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: that's gone, you have to plant something new in its place,

435
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,919
Speaker 1: or just say that's it. So the nice thing is

436
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: about this game is that you can be obsessive and

437
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: use spreadsheets and everything to plan everything out. There's nothing

438
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 1: wrong with that. That's a legitimate form of gaming. Or

439
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 1: you can be like me where you're like, whoopsie, Daisy

440
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 1: shouldn't have planted that. Then could have held on to

441
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,440
Speaker 1: it till the next year. But whatever, it's summertime. Let's

442
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 1: plant some other stuff. And that's what I love about

443
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,439
Speaker 1: the game is that there's not a right way to

444
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 1: play it. I mean, you can men max, but I'm

445
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: just not that type of player. I've never been a

446
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,679
Speaker 1: men maxer, so I don't sweat it and it helps

447
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: me a lot.

448
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 3: Okay, you know, I think when we talk about games

449
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 3: now start a value. Yeah, they had the seasons, it's

450
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 3: not like real time of seasons. Yeah, but games like

451
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 3: Animal Crossing. Specifically with Animal Crossing, it gives you a

452
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 3: new venture because you can visit each other's islands. I

453
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 3: still love the Elijah Wood story about Animal Crossing. That

454
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,640
Speaker 3: really pushed it to an element of like, oh, there's

455
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,199
Speaker 3: a celebrity let's go, let's see if we can get

456
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 3: him to come to our island type of conversation. But

457
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 3: it really opens up where during that pandemic era where

458
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 3: we were all quarantined or trying to people were able

459
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 3: to actually still have fun, Like you don't have to

460
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 3: be right next to each other. I have visited Annie's island.

461
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 3: I haven't visited recently. I need to see the finished product.

462
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 3: You can do dream states where you go and visit

463
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 3: people's island without interacting with people, but it's actually people's islands.

464
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 3: Like this level of gaming is such a different, unique perspective.

465
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 3: It could be dangerous if you too get a different way,

466
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 3: but wind in appropriately. It's so fun because I have

467
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 3: brought people back into Animal crossing, just like Annie after

468
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 3: the fact, because I am real slow in catching up

469
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 3: with the times and like what the fads are and

470
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 3: I get to interact with them and they get to

471
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 3: show off their island, even not right next to each other.

472
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 3: Like it's a fantastic way that this level of community

473
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 3: is able to attach to a game like this, And

474
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 3: I think that's a big part of what makes these

475
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 3: appealing is that safety, that safety that it kind of

476
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 3: brings as well as that soft, warm feeling that we

477
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 3: talk about when it comes to obviously cozy. So this

478
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 3: is such a great opening for so many people who

479
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 3: just want to occupy some time once again without having

480
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 3: to remember how awful things can be or agree well.

481
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 1: And it gives you a chance to see into other

482
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: people's approach to creativity, which I love. I think of

483
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: it equivalent to there's a concept within tech about open source, right,

484
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 1: this idea of you are creating something and you're leaving

485
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: it open for other people to be able to see

486
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: how you're doing it. They can actually contribute to the development.

487
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: In some cases, they are free to take what you

488
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: did and build upon that, maybe in a brand new way.

489
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: And I feel like elements of that philosophy are inherent

490
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: in some of these cozy games as well, where it

491
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: is this openness. And one of the best things about

492
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: open source, in my opinion, is that it allows for

493
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: people who otherwise never would have been able to participate

494
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 1: in that particular project to take part in it, and

495
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: the project benefits from their participation. Because if you have

496
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: a closed project, you might have some really smart people

497
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 1: working on that they're really really smart, but you're limited

498
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: to the people who are in the room. When it's open,

499
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,479
Speaker 1: it's practically unlimited. I mean, as long as someone has access,

500
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 1: they can contribute. And it doesn't matter how big that room,

501
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,360
Speaker 1: that closed room was, you're still going to find the

502
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: best ideas in that open environment. Same sort of thing

503
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: with this approach to cozy games, where you're gonna see

504
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: stuff that Whenever I see any of these videos of

505
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:59,919
Speaker 1: people who have meticulously crafted their islands and animal crossing,

506
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: I just sit there and think, like, how many hours

507
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 1: does that represent? I mean, it's phenomenal. You've done an

508
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: amazing job. I don't think of it as a waste

509
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: of time. I think of it as an incredible expression

510
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 1: that you know, you took these tools that were meant

511
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: to be a game and you turned it into art.

512
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: That's kind of phenomenal, and you're sharing it for free

513
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 1: with people, or maybe not for free, maybe they got

514
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 1: to bring a turn up or two, but they still

515
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: get to go see it.

516
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think there is absolutely a reason why

517
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 2: they're so popular and why they are so popular right now.

518
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 2: And the pandemic was a big one, and during the

519
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 2: pandemic they really took off because we were looking for

520
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 2: this way to connect to find stress relief, and that

521
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 2: has translated to so many new games, and so many

522
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: of them that are so interesting and new, which we'll

523
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 2: talk about, but also a lot of money, like an

524
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 2: estimated three hundred and twenty billion dollars by twenty twenty six,

525
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 2: and a lot more gamers three point two billion gamers

526
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 2: worldwide by the end of twenty twenty three. That's a

527
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 2: lot of people. And with that, coinciding with the rise

528
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 2: of cozy games, we've seen the rise of women and

529
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 2: non binary people and trans people who are developers. I

530
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 2: haven't found anything that's a direct link, but it's pretty

531
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 2: telling that we're seeing a lot more of these games,

532
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 2: and then we're seeing a lot more women and non

533
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 2: binary people and trans people in the development space. Because

534
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 2: we also have talked to some developers on our show

535
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 2: who are saying, you know, it's easier to get in

536
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 2: in the cozy gaming space as an indie developer doesn't

537
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,719
Speaker 2: have a big studio backing her. And so I think

538
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 2: when we're talking about that, when we're talking about people

539
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,719
Speaker 2: in the gaming world, this creativity of seeing what someone

540
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 2: does on their island, but also the creativity of having

541
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 2: more developers in the space and seeing what comes of that.

542
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 2: I've just really really enjoyed. I love seeing a game

543
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 2: that doesn't have the traditional like this is victory model.

544
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 2: I love seeing the different ways people are redefining games.

545
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 2: It's just so fun because games are such a great

546
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 2: storytelling medium, or just even a pretty space where it

547
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 2: feels nice and safe and you can connect with people

548
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 2: that way. There's just so much vast fertile ground for

549
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 2: new types of games, So I have really loved that

550
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 2: coming out of this.

551
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there has been a real convergence, both

552
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: with the rise of the popularity of cozy games and

553
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: the welcome trend of more women, non binary, and trans

554
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: game developers getting traction in a space that traditionally has

555
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: favored men. I mentioned River Raid being made by Carol Shaw,

556
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: and of course that's not the only example of an

557
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: early game developed by a woman. Women have been involved

558
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: in game development since games have been a thing, right,

559
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: whether you're talking about video games or just games in general,

560
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: but more often than not, their stories were kind of ignored,

561
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: are just simply not not addressed. While you would hear

562
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: about you know, Nolan Bushnell or something you know, you

563
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: hear about all the men, especially the business leaders responsible

564
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: for establishing game studios and that sort of thing. And

565
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: I like the fact that that women and non binary

566
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: and trans game developers are having a moment, you know, like,

567
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 1: and I'm hoping it's just the beginning of a moment

568
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: that lasts from here on out, so that we're not

569
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: telling the same heterogeneous story over and over and over again.

570
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 1: And it's also nice to be able to talk about

571
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: something that isn't a terrible story, like toxic work culture

572
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:56,719
Speaker 1: at a company like Ubisoft or Activision Blizzard, like anyone

573
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: who's done any research into gaming, Ultimately, you're going to

574
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: come across those stories. The nice thing is it doesn't

575
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: have to be like that. It's not like that everywhere,

576
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: and there are stories of people who are in a

577
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: safe space to be creative and to develop games and

578
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: to create things that speak to a very wide audience.

579
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm living proof, Like I'm a straight

580
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: white man who loves cozy games. It's not like these

581
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: games aren't meant for you so you can't play them.

582
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 1: They're so welcoming that even a demo like me gets

583
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,479
Speaker 1: to go and play with everybody's toys and I love it.

584
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 3: Yes.

585
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: And you know, when we first started talking about cozy

586
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: games on Spinty, Samantha did all this research to see

587
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 2: like what's up here, and there was a lot of

588
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 2: like our women, Is it more women playing cozy games?

589
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 2: And there was some research that suggested that, but it

590
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: was mostly like pretty small percentage wise. I think it

591
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 2: was just because the narrative has so long been this

592
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: is what a game is, but women, wait a minute,

593
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 2: they're playing this, and they're playing mobile games, and that

594
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 2: goes into what we've been kind of alluding to, of

595
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 2: that discussion of what's a real game and what's a

596
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 2: real gamer. And in my opinion, like I read somebody

597
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 2: wrote it like that's like saying somebody who reads a

598
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 2: children's book and a different book, Like they're all books.

599
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 2: At the end of the day, they're all books. Like

600
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 2: why are we casting one is not a real game

601
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: or it's lesser, And oftentimes it's because it's seen as

602
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: something more feminine. There's like a lot of gender essentialism

603
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 2: of like, oh, it's more like social and empathetic, that's

604
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 2: more for women, But plenty of women like violent games too.

605
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 2: I'm somebody who likes all kinds of games. I don't

606
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 2: know why. Well, like I do because on the show

607
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: we do, but we always have to gender things in

608
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 2: this way. It's unnecess yeah, unnecessary.

609
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, like anecdotally, like some of the creators,

610
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: like the content creators that I follow, who are you know,

611
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: they're not developers, but they're players in the space. A

612
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: lot of the women that I follow, you know, they're

613
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: playing incredibly competitive you know, triple A title, violent games,

614
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: you know. And I find all the pigeonholing and stereotyping

615
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: to be really frustrating. It also does not help that

616
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: there are video game developers out there who are trying

617
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,959
Speaker 1: to capitalize on a female audience, and so they're making

618
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: a game they think women will like, which is the

619
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: equivalent in the tech space of hey, let's make this

620
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: thing pink and then women will buy it. It is

621
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: the most insulting, reductive thing you can imagine. And those

622
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: are some of the games I would say are bad games.

623
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: They're not. Maybe the gameplay is fine, but the presentation

624
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: is so pandering and and insulting that I can't stand it.

625
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: It's insincere, is what it really comes down to. And

626
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: I don't want that game.

627
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 3: Right, And even though cozy gaming is not new, like

628
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 3: the term is fairly new obviously. And then the understanding

629
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 3: and kind of the I guess industry in itself with

630
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 3: people trying to jump on board again like big corporations

631
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 3: like you were talking about, and I found it like

632
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 3: really reassuring that we see more and more independent companies

633
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 3: coming out because of games like this. I know you're

634
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 3: gonna mention one of the games that you love that

635
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 3: I haven't played yet. I'm gonna it's unpacking. And the

636
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 3: way that it had developed was through a female, a

637
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 3: women creator, Rin Bryer, and she worked with an independent

638
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 3: company in Australia to make this happen. We see when

639
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,280
Speaker 3: things like this. It won so many awards, it has baftis,

640
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 3: it has all these awards to it because it is

641
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 3: one of the biggest games out there, but it couldn't

642
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 3: have happened without it actually being developed with an independent

643
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 3: gaming company. And I think that's really important to talk

644
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 3: about that we are seeing more opportunities, Thank goodness, because

645
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 3: of this. We had a creator on named Renee Gittens

646
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 3: and loved her. She was fantastic and she is a

647
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 3: director of Stumbling Cat Studios, which is an independent company,

648
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 3: and she talked about the struggles of releasing her own game,

649
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 3: which by the way, is Potions, and it's a really

650
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 3: cool if you like Stardu.

651
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: Valley, that Potions was fantastic.

652
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 3: Did you play it?

653
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: Okay?

654
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 2: So good?

655
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 3: And she did such an amazing job in creating this

656
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 3: that the marketing part was kind of shaky and she

657
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 3: really had to push forward through outlets like TikTok in

658
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 3: order to have it out there. And I think she's

659
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 3: things fairly successful now, thank goodness. But like it's independent

660
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 3: companies like this that really help create a better platform

661
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 3: and a better results in gaming through their companies.

662
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,839
Speaker 1: I love hearing that a lot. Like that's good, such

663
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,439
Speaker 1: a nice contrast to some of the stories you hear

664
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: from the big established companies, where like there are women

665
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 1: who say, oh, my time at like Activision Blizzard was

666
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 1: actually great. I got to work on some fantastic things,

667
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 1: but there was also this incredibly toxic culture that I

668
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 1: also had to deal with. And of course there are

669
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: women who said the toxic culture defined their entire experience

670
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: of working at these companies. So hearing about these chances

671
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: for people who don't identify as straight men. Having a

672
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: chance to be able to build in this space is

673
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 1: really encouraging to me, because I mean, there are entire

674
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 1: experiences I never would have had if it hadn't been

675
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: for someone taking a chance on a person who doesn't

676
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,399
Speaker 1: fall into what is considered the mold of video game

677
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: designer or you know, video game director or whatever it

678
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 1: may be. And that's a real shame because you know,

679
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: we would be without some really kick ass games if

680
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:53,760
Speaker 1: that were the case.

681
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 3: You said you do potions. How far along are you

682
00:36:58,440 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 3: at the beginning.

683
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 1: Smell, I'm still very early on, still very early on,

684
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: so but I want to I'll give a shout out now,

685
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: but I'll probably shout her out again later. There's a

686
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 1: content creator who goes by the handle gab Smolders. Gab Smolders.

687
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 1: I found out about gab Smolders because I'm an old guy.

688
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: I was extremely late to the game of discovering this

689
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 1: one content creator and not irishman. Top of them. Martintolia

690
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,439
Speaker 1: is how he started off all his videos. His name's

691
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: Jack Septic Guy. That's his handle, Jack Septic Guy. He's big, big,

692
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: big news like huge content creator. I came late to

693
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: the game. Found out his partner is gab Smolders and

694
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 1: he had her on for a streamer too, and I

695
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, this person's really cool. And then they

696
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: mentioned that she had her own YouTube video channel, so

697
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 1: I went and subscribed to that, and so she started

698
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: playing Potions and I was like, yes, so I just haven't.

699
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 1: I have so little time and so much of it

700
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: is dedicated to Stardu Valley in Disney Dreamlight Valley that

701
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 1: I have only played a little bit of it.

702
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 2: Okay, well, okay, this is a good segue into a

703
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 2: couple of things for me.

704
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: Well, I know, Annie, you have to say something because

705
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 1: you started and then Tari found another knife. We took

706
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: the first one away from her. This one's bigger, So

707
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: I think we're gonna take another quick break to think

708
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 1: our sponsors. Tari's staring daggers at me, but the actual

709
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: literal dagger is no longer in her hand, so I

710
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: think it's safe for us to start the episode.

711
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 2: Oh good story. Well, okay, yes, I do have a

712
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 2: couple of things I wanted to bring up because after

713
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 2: all of this was coming out, maybe more women are

714
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 2: playing games. What does that mean? People were trying.

715
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 1: To women, they're a thing. Did you know?

716
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 2: Did you know we could have been making money off

717
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 2: of this whole demographic. Oh my gosh. It's so frustrating because,

718
00:38:58,040 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 2: like you said, women have been creating gays what they've

719
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 2: been playing games forever, but there was a whole like

720
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 2: gendered marketing thing that happened in the eighties. And yep, anyway,

721
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 2: there was a lot of what's going on here. Obviously,

722
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 2: one of the things that came up was casual games

723
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 2: and cozy games are easier to pick up, they're more accessible,

724
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 2: and women we've talked about recently on a recent episode,

725
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 2: they have less leisure time, So it's quite possible that

726
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 2: that is one of the reasons is like I can

727
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 2: just pick this up whenever I have time. I don't

728
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 2: have to go through the tutorial of how all of

729
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 2: this works, Like it's pretty simple. In between all the

730
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 2: other things you've got going on. Social media for the

731
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 2: first time was actually marketing games towards women. In some

732
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 2: cases very problematically so as you were mentioning, but it

733
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 2: is one of the first times where these games were

734
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 2: being marketed towards women, and things like content creators and

735
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 2: social media also helped but I think we do have

736
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 2: to emphasize as well that it has been when you're

737
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 2: talking about things like Activision, Blizzard, when you're talking about

738
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 2: online harassment, it's been a space that has often been

739
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 2: very hostile. And even if somebody didn't outright experience the hostility,

740
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 2: just the reputation of it was enough to be like, oh,

741
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 2: I don't want to I'm not welcome in that world.

742
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. So this episode overall is all about joy and

743
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:32,000
Speaker 1: acceptance and accessibility and celebrating connectivity and all this sort

744
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: of thing, but we have to address a very awful,

745
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: terrible elephant in the room. So yeah, I wish I

746
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: could say that the gaming industry and the audience for

747
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 1: games in general all came to embrace and celebrate the

748
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: fact that there was a more diverse group of gamers

749
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 1: out there then typically gets represented. But no, that's not

750
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: the way it unfolded. There were trash people who mostly

751
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 1: gathered on eight chan. If you don't know what eight

752
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 1: chan is and you've heard of four chan, eight chan

753
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 1: is four chan but worse, and they got together and

754
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 1: created a coordinated smear campaign that was targeting women in games,

755
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: whether they were women creators like developers or they were

756
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,760
Speaker 1: in the gaming media industry where they were reporting on games.

757
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 1: And this ended up getting the name from the actor

758
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: Adam Baldwin. You might remember him from Firefly, a show

759
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 1: that I used to like to watch. And gamer Gate

760
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 1: became a thing in twenty fourteen, and on its surface,

761
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: the perpetuators of gamer Gate set it was all about

762
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: addressing and unfair and biased practices in media, in games media.

763
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: In reality, what it was was a harassment campaign that

764
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 1: specifically singled out women and non binary people in the

765
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: space and tried to run them out of it. And

766
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: this extended beyond just online harassment to things like swatting,

767
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: where they were sending swat teams to people's homes or

768
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: sending disturbing male or sharing ad you know, doxing people online.

769
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: And it was a perfect catalog of all the worst

770
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 1: behaviors that you would hear about on the internet, all

771
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: directed at women for having the temerity to be both

772
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: women and people who like to play games. And it

773
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 1: was the worst and it lasted for like two years

774
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: until it kind of died down when enough people said

775
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 1: that they were no longer buying the cover story of

776
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 1: this is about games journalism because it's so clearly was

777
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: not so much so that even Wikipedia, if you go

778
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 1: to Wikipedia and look up Gamergate, it actually has i

779
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: think in brackets it says an online harassment campaign. So

780
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 1: it's Gamergate online harassment campaign, like that's what they It's not,

781
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, championing ethics in game journalism the way that

782
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 1: they were claiming. So that was super ugly and for

783
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 1: someone like me, as naive and idiotic as I am

784
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: being not having that experience like I have not had

785
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 1: the experience of being confronted with this kind of stuff

786
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: in my day to day life, seeing it so bare

787
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: like an undeniable out there was a real wake up

788
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: call that was long overdue for me, honestly, because it

789
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: was undeniable what was happening, and that the fact that

790
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 1: it was happening in the open, it was one of

791
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 1: those things that I thought was really disturbing. This would

792
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,439
Speaker 1: eventually dovetail into the Me Too movement and you would

793
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: start to see more and more people come out and

794
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 1: support women and the stories they had to tell, not

795
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 1: just in gaming obviously, but in all venues, and in

796
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 1: some ways I think ultimately it's a good thing, but

797
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 1: it was such a truly brutal time online and in

798
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 1: the gaming industry and general.

799
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 3: Trying not to be the negative Nancy, and we were

800
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 3: trying to do very positive. I wish we could say

801
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 3: that was the end and everything has changed for the

802
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 3: better and everybody accepts everyone into this world. But since then,

803
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 3: we've had incidents in Twitch where deep fakes are made

804
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 3: of female creators. We've seen people attacking trans creators like

805
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 3: nobody's business people, attacking influencers who say they like a

806
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 3: certain game like I definitely love Following, like you were

807
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,280
Speaker 3: talking about different YouTubers and TikTokers who talk about cozy

808
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 3: gaming specifically like that's now part of my world, and

809
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 3: them having to do every like every six months, a

810
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 3: video saying please stop harassing me, please stop telling me

811
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 3: I'm not a gamer, please, like having to do something

812
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 3: that seems so needless and so honestly like, good for them,

813
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 3: I hope they're making making money off of that video,

814
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:57,280
Speaker 3: but the fact that they have to take their time

815
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:01,720
Speaker 3: and do another video to call out the haters, essentially,

816
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,359
Speaker 3: because it seems like it's a constant basis every time

817
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 3: I've ever seen and again it maybe because Twitter has

818
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 3: changed so vastly in the last few years, but even

819
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 3: before it did change hands. I remember looking at one

820
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 3: specific group, a nonprofit feminist frequency. Yes, their whole thing

821
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 3: is to try to educate as well as advocate for

822
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 3: women and non binding people in the community, in the

823
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,800
Speaker 3: gaming community. Every time they would post something, I swear

824
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 3: about seventy percent of the comments to them were literal

825
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 3: dick picks. Yeah, and that was after the fact. So

826
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 3: there's so much And again though back to there's so

827
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 3: many people that are like you, Jonathan, who were like,

828
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 3: what is going on? Why would you do this? This

829
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 3: is silly? Why can't everybody be a part of this?

830
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 3: This seems unnecessary. So there's definitely people who are have

831
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 3: become more and more supporters, but there's still that negativity

832
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 3: that still have people and a lot of marginalized people

833
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 3: questioning should I even try?

834
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, it suggests to me that there's some deep things

835
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 1: that go well beyond the gaming sphere that are contributors

836
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: to this kind of behavior. I mean obviously, because like

837
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: I think anyone could say that, well, if you don't

838
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: like those kinds of games, and you don't consider them games,

839
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 1: why don't you just follow the people who like the

840
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: kinds of games you like, And then you know other

841
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 1: people can enjoy this thing and it doesn't like the

842
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: fact that it exists doesn't mean you're required to enjoy

843
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: it or engage with it. Go and do the things

844
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: you like to do. So why do you have to

845
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,799
Speaker 1: Why do you feel the need to engage in a

846
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 1: negative way with this world that doesn't speak to you?

847
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,839
Speaker 1: Just go do the thing that does speak to you.

848
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 1: And I think the answer to that question is, Oh,

849
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 1: I see, there's a deeper level of like misogyny and

850
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: transphobia and tribalism that's at play, that is driving these behaviors,

851
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 1: and this is just an easy way for that to manifest,

852
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,720
Speaker 1: and in some ways has been treated as an acceptable

853
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: way for it to manifest, because again, gaming, for so

854
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 1: long was perceived to be the domain of young male

855
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,720
Speaker 1: leisurely activity. And maybe that's a whole lot of armchair

856
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,720
Speaker 1: psychology and none of it is supportable. It's entirely possible,

857
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: But from my own observations, it's the implication I feel

858
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: pressed upon me when I see these kinds of things unfold.

859
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 2: Yes, And if this were a different episode of Jonathan,

860
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 2: I would unpack so much of that, like the history

861
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:39,879
Speaker 2: of dudes feeling maligned because they were nerds, and now

862
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,399
Speaker 2: nerd is cool, and they don't the gatekeeping.

863
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,720
Speaker 1: They don't want anybody in the pedestals.

864
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, and the reason like it's a real game

865
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 2: and not a real game skill level, and you could

866
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 2: never obtain this skill, which yes I can. But anyway,

867
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: one of the things that really upsets me about all

868
00:47:58,200 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 2: of this a lot of things, but one of the

869
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 2: things that really upsets me is that games are fun

870
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 2: and they are a good stress reliever. As we were

871
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 2: talking about, there's been scientific studies into all of the

872
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 2: things that they can help with. We've had listeners right

873
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,839
Speaker 2: in that say it helps them with things like PTSD.

874
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 2: It can like it can relieve your your stress, your anxiety,

875
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 2: it can lift your mood, it can foster connection. It's

876
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 2: being used in all kinds of treatments for things, and

877
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 2: so obviously that's there's a lot going on there. There's

878
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 2: been a long standing narrative about games and mental health.

879
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 2: But it's really unfortunate to have like a whole demographic

880
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 2: where it is either they're missing out on it entirely

881
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 2: because they don't feel welcome or it's a stressor because

882
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: they're gonna get harassed if they play Yeah yeah.

883
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:02,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that that's sucks. If any of my listeners

884
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 1: out there ever find yourself tempted to like criticize someone

885
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,319
Speaker 1: for the things that they like, if those things aren't

886
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: hurting anyone, just think twice about it. As I often

887
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: stress this show, the underlying philosophy is a combination of

888
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: critical thinking and compassion. That compassion piece is important. I

889
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 1: say over and over again. If you are compassionate but

890
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 1: you lack critical thinking, you're a dip. And if you

891
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: are a critical thinker but you lack compassion, you're a jerk.

892
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 1: Don't be a dip or a jerk. Combine the two together,

893
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 1: and then you can be you know, or at least

894
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 1: try to be a good person. It's a good step.

895
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 1: It's a good start, a foundation. Really. But yeah, I

896
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: completely agree with everything you said, Annie. I mean, like

897
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: my listeners know this, but this might be news to you,

898
00:49:55,600 --> 00:50:00,040
Speaker 1: and I apologize. But earlier this year, I had a

899
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:04,320
Speaker 1: a massive medical emergency and nearly died and spent quite

900
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: some time in the intensive care unit of a local

901
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 1: hospital here in the Atlanta area, where everyone was super nice,

902
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 1: and a part of that medical emergency was due to stress.

903
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:21,399
Speaker 1: My blood pressure had reached level of two sixteen over

904
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: one point thirty, which is in stroke territory if you're curious.

905
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 1: And so I had to do many, many, many things

906
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 1: to try and find ways to change my lifestyle to

907
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: improve my stress levels. And I did lots of stuff,

908
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: like I reduced my workload, I started to eat better,

909
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: and then the holidays happened, but anyway, I was eating

910
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,799
Speaker 1: better for most of the year. And these games, these

911
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: cozy games, were one of the ways I would manage

912
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 1: my anxiety and my stress. When I would feel them

913
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,040
Speaker 1: coming on and I had a little extra time, I

914
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: would play these games. I would let me focus on

915
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: something that was not stressful. There were no real like

916
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 1: there's like steaks, but they're all very low level stakes.

917
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,360
Speaker 1: You know, will Emily agree to go to the movies

918
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 1: with me in Stardue Valley or I'm not gonna have

919
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:21,839
Speaker 1: to go back to Sandy and boy she's a pill, Yeah,

920
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: you know, and so like low stakes. So I but

921
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 1: I found them like I again, this is anecdotal, but

922
00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 1: I found them very therapeutic. And to me, when you

923
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,839
Speaker 1: have an experience like that that that you feel directly

924
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: benefits like your life and is potentially keeping you alive

925
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: or at least helping to you know, when you when

926
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 1: we tell these stories about people who feel turned away

927
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:53,720
Speaker 1: from the hobby or they're criticized for liking a certain

928
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: type of game because it's not a different type of game,

929
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 1: it really is upsetting because I'm like, y'all, these games

930
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 1: kept me from going insane and having blood pressure to

931
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 1: the point where I had to go back into the hospital.

932
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 1: I think this is something that is worth experiencing, or

933
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 1: if you don't want to experience it, just let other

934
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: people enjoy what they're enjoying.

935
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 3: I'm really glad you're okay.

936
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:22,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, well, okay is a really broad term.

937
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 3: We're gonna say, yes, okay, are you are you feeling better?

938
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: My blood pressure is lower, Okay, the surgery I had

939
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: to have earlier this year went well.

940
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,760
Speaker 3: So glad to hear it. We're glad that you're okay,

941
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,800
Speaker 3: We're glad you're back with us, and yes, let's to

942
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 3: there to the workload. Yeah, good on you. I know

943
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 3: that's something hard for you. I might not know you well,

944
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 3: but I know that you do work a lot, so

945
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 3: good on you for falling back. But here's the other

946
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,479
Speaker 3: thing to this too. Not not only is it, yes,

947
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 3: all the stress relief because I'm with you, because I

948
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 3: need that as well. I found out I've got a

949
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 3: perfect game for that has an ending, but it's beautiful.

950
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 3: It's very stress relieving. But one of the things this

951
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 3: is a money making industry, and not just for developers,

952
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 3: not just for companies. But we talked about influencers. It

953
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 3: opened the door for so many people to be able

954
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 3: to be a part of this industry which seemed geared

955
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 3: towards men. So even in Twitch, twitch streams and Twitch creators,

956
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 3: people have been making bank and you rarely see women

957
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 3: in there, but when you do, it's pretty cool to

958
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:31,399
Speaker 3: me to see so many being able to play any games.

959
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 3: It's not just cozy games. It's all these games. But

960
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 3: even more so, like we were talking about with TikTok,

961
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 3: we're talking about with YouTube like being able to make

962
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 3: money off of content. That's something that wasn't previously done before.

963
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:47,279
Speaker 3: So we have creators like we've talked about. You talked

964
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 3: about gab Smolders and which I want to hear morebout

965
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 3: her because I'm go'n have to follow her. But Cozy

966
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 3: Kay is one of the ones that really got me

967
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 3: into finding these different games. And she makes this aesthetic

968
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:59,439
Speaker 3: like the whole thing is the aesthetics of it all.

969
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:02,840
Speaker 3: She loves the game, don't don't play, she loves the game.

970
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:06,319
Speaker 3: But like with her aesthetics, she's being able to make

971
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 3: a living through this content and she does an amazing,

972
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 3: amazing job. She's gotten sponsorships through these games. She's gotten

973
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 3: sponsorships from blanket companies and candle companies because again, it

974
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 3: goes along with that cozy vibe. And this opens up

975
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 3: so much more for marginalized people to be able to

976
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:25,799
Speaker 3: be a part of an industry they thought they could

977
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 3: never be a part of previously because yeah, maybe their

978
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 3: thing is not playing I'm sorry any but last of us,

979
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 3: because they don't want their heart to be torn out

980
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 3: of their chest every few days, I'm sorry, relaxing like

981
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 3: you see so much more like. And then we have

982
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 3: people like Milady Confetti, who is another creator that she's

983
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 3: on a podcast, her podcast, Nerdy Magical Girl Podcast, where

984
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,280
Speaker 3: she gets to talk about her love of cozy games

985
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 3: and gaming in general and just all things nerdy, But

986
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 3: this really opened up a door for her to be

987
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 3: a con creator that she couldn't have been previously or

988
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:06,360
Speaker 3: may not have had the opportunity previously. So this is

989
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:10,319
Speaker 3: such a moneymaker for not only again the creators are

990
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 3: the developers, but so many more people out there. And

991
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:15,600
Speaker 3: I think that's amazing. Yeah, because we need more content

992
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 3: like this.

993
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:18,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I like. I love the creators who would

994
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 1: engage in the cozy and also the silly like. I

995
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 1: like creators who are who don't have that ego or

996
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 1: being and they're not being silly like in a prankish

997
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:32,400
Speaker 1: way where they're constantly pranking each other. I don't like

998
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 1: the pranks like this one. So many pranks are clearly

999
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:40,439
Speaker 1: prearranged and not actually pranks. They're just performative and y'all

1000
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 1: that's just not cool. But two like, they're usually mean spirited,

1001
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 1: and I'm not big on that either. My friend Shay

1002
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:49,840
Speaker 1: would say, well, it's because you're a cancer. You just

1003
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 1: want everyone to be friendly all the time, Like, yeah,

1004
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 1: I do want I don't believe in astrology, but I

1005
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: do want people to be friendly all the time. Gosh

1006
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 1: darn it, But so I to cancer. But but yeah,

1007
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:06,680
Speaker 1: Like I like the people who they They love the cozy,

1008
00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 1: they love being silly, they love laughing. Like that's the

1009
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:15,880
Speaker 1: vibe I yearn for when I'm going on to watch content.

1010
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: So like gab Smolders, who I did mention earlier, she

1011
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:22,400
Speaker 1: does a lot of different games, like not just cozy games,

1012
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 1: she also really really and any you dig this, she

1013
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 1: loves creepy, spooky, supernatural horror type games, so those are

1014
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 1: like the two categories she typically does. And you never

1015
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 1: know if it's gonna be a cozy game or if

1016
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,279
Speaker 1: it's gonna be a this thing's going to eat your

1017
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 1: face off your face game. Typically not an action oriented game.

1018
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 1: It's usually more like like Japanese horrorse aesthetic going on.

1019
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:48,040
Speaker 1: She does a lot of games from Itchyo.

1020
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 3: But.

1021
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,840
Speaker 1: I love it whenever it's cozy, because she she herself

1022
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,959
Speaker 1: will make herself cozy. She has a cat named BIB

1023
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:58,920
Speaker 1: and BB is a big, old, fluffy tabby cat who

1024
00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:03,880
Speaker 1: who very frequently will interrupt her videos and BB just

1025
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,280
Speaker 1: becomes part of the video and like BB has BB's

1026
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 1: own fan club. But yeah, potions is how I learned

1027
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:14,720
Speaker 1: potions from gab Smolders. I've watched your play Stardo Valley.

1028
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 1: I've watched your play lots of these cozy games, including

1029
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 1: the ones that have sort of a creepy element to them.

1030
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:25,440
Speaker 1: So that's why Annie, I think you definitely need to

1031
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 1: check her out. She's originally from the Netherlands, now living

1032
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 1: in England, and her accent is also adorable. It's not

1033
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 1: super strong, but it's one of the many things that

1034
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: I actually find very comforting when I'm watching these. It's

1035
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:45,560
Speaker 1: almost to the point of being ASMR without being ASMR, Like,

1036
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 1: it's not intentionally you could argue unintentional ASMR unless she's

1037
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 1: playing one of the really super wacky games where it's

1038
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,200
Speaker 1: just way too much laughing for it to be relaxing.

1039
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 1: It's just very fun. But yeah, highly recommend gab Smolders.

1040
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 1: Her content is great. If you go to her channel,

1041
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 1: say I sent you. She doesn't know who I am,

1042
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 1: it'll just be fun.

1043
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 2: Who was this?

1044
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly? Who's Jonathan from text? Who's this guy?

1045
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 2: Well? I mean that's such a useful There are so

1046
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 2: many video games. It's so useful to have someone who

1047
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:27,120
Speaker 2: you trust to recommend or not recommend in case maybe, so,

1048
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 2: I do think that's really valuable I found a lot

1049
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 2: of horror games through people where they're like, oh, have

1050
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 2: you seen this someone else playing it? And kind of

1051
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 2: to the getting with the cat and the blanket, A

1052
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 2: lot of people say, like for them, the cozy game

1053
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 2: is that is like you get in your blanket, you

1054
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:47,640
Speaker 2: get your pet, or you get the warm drink. And

1055
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 2: that's why a lot of cozy games are on portable

1056
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:51,440
Speaker 2: things like Switch.

1057
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1058
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I do think that's important part of this

1059
00:58:55,000 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 2: conversation as well, the rise of portable gaming system. I

1060
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:04,400
Speaker 2: also read some people describe it as being meditative and

1061
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 2: that's why they kind of feel that health benefit when

1062
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 2: they play. But I do think unfortunately gaming, and it

1063
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 2: specifically cozy gaming, is often dismissed as like there's no

1064
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 2: value in this or in fact it's doing you harm.

1065
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 2: But beyond the high stress times we live in, and

1066
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:28,560
Speaker 2: there have been studies that show these do help. They

1067
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 2: are also when we're talking about why it matters, it

1068
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 2: matters that we're looking at different ways games can look

1069
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 2: based on who's creating them. It matters when we're talking

1070
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 2: about like how we define the structure or what is winning.

1071
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:49,240
Speaker 2: When we're talking about inclusivity and storytelling, our creativity to

1072
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 2: give us these better stories, these more varied stories, and

1073
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 2: just women, having more women and marginalized people in gaming

1074
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 2: and redefining what a gamer is. So we can hopefully

1075
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 2: one move on from that conversation and we can move

1076
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 2: on to like improving in a different way. I'm tired

1077
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 2: of being stuck on this one part. Yeah, let's let's

1078
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 2: talk about like why these cozy games are so valuable

1079
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:14,439
Speaker 2: and why people love them, and let's stop dismissing them

1080
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 2: as useless.

1081
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, or not real games. Yeah, yeah, I think. I

1082
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 1: think if everyone were to play Gone Home Sincerely, Like literally,

1083
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: you sit down, you play Gone Home Sincerely, and you

1084
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 1: can't talk about that game because it ruins the game.

1085
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 1: But you get to the end of Gone Home, and

1086
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 1: the by the end of Gone Home, the game has

1087
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 1: turned out to be not what you thought it was

1088
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 1: when you started, Like, I think it's safe to say

1089
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 1: that it is different. And if you are not moved

1090
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 1: by the end of that, just you know, like maybe

1091
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 1: maybe keep your opinions to yourself, because for the rest

1092
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 1: of us, it would be really nice if we could

1093
01:00:53,280 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 1: all just celebrate something that like tells such a beautiful

1094
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 1: story that unfolds in such an amazing way and has

1095
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 1: a killer soundtrack that you know, we can all celebrate

1096
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:09,560
Speaker 1: in something and maybe for someone like me have a

1097
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 1: chance to see the world from a perspective entirely different

1098
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 1: from my day to day experience. And that, to me

1099
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 1: is one of those really valuable elements of this is

1100
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 1: that one people who have largely been underrepresented or not

1101
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 1: even represented at all within video games get to have

1102
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 1: an experience that reflects their reality. That I think is

1103
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 1: invaluable by itself. The added benefit is that people like me,

1104
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 1: who have been catered to for my entire life get

1105
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:42,919
Speaker 1: to have an experience outside of what I normally get

1106
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 1: to live, and it just it opens up your eyes

1107
01:01:46,120 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 1: and it's a beautiful thing.

1108
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:50,760
Speaker 2: Yes, the power of storytelling in games because it's you

1109
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 2: playing like there's a part of you in it. I

1110
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 2: think that is so if you genuinely allow yourself to

1111
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 2: be moved, if a game good, you will be moved. Yeah,

1112
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 2: And I think that is incredibly, incredibly powerful, And honestly,

1113
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 2: I'm kind it's kind of tragic because the people who

1114
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 2: are dismissing cozy games could really use them.

1115
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:12,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah a lot.

1116
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do think it's funny that you

1117
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:21,600
Speaker 4: said the Last of Us is instinmant that you said

1118
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:23,400
Speaker 4: the Last of Us is Annie's cozy game.

1119
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 1: It's so not a cozy game in any way, shape

1120
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 1: or for it. We'll say however, Episode three, I think

1121
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 1: of the Last of Us TV show is perhaps the

1122
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 1: best television I've ever seen in my entire life. So

1123
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 1: if you haven't seen the HBO adaptation of the first

1124
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:41,120
Speaker 1: Last of Us game, you need to see that because

1125
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:45,200
Speaker 1: it's probably the most beautiful love story.

1126
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 2: Yes, tears, so many tears.

1127
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:53,920
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I cried for days. I cried my face,

1128
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 1: I cried. I cried describing the episode to my partner,

1129
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 1: who did But my partner never played the game, had

1130
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 1: no interest in the show, and I was like, I

1131
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 1: have to tell you because I have to talk about this.

1132
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 2: I've got to share it with so much.

1133
01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:14,280
Speaker 1: Like I love Nick Offerman so much more, and I

1134
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 1: already loved him as much as I thought I could. Hey, there,

1135
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:21,640
Speaker 1: this is Jonathan from the future. Hey y'all know how

1136
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:25,920
Speaker 1: this works. This means that we kept on talking and

1137
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 1: the show kept getting longer. So Annie and Samantha, who

1138
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 1: are still on the call, with me. Now have to

1139
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 1: listen to me throw to more sponsors, so we'll be

1140
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:48,480
Speaker 1: right back. Let's sort of move out toward the end here.

1141
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 1: We've been chatting for quite a long time, and there's

1142
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 1: so much more we could say. Obviously, this is a

1143
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:57,240
Speaker 1: very important topic. It sounds silly to say cozy games

1144
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 1: is an important topic, but it absolutely is for all

1145
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:03,280
Speaker 1: the different reasons that we've listed, from the benefits to

1146
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 1: the increased representation to the entrance of people with new

1147
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:13,480
Speaker 1: perspectives in the world of video game development, which ultimately

1148
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 1: benefits everybody. Even if you don't play the game, it

1149
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:20,480
Speaker 1: benefits you. Just chill out, you're gonna get the benefits.

1150
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 1: Let's talk about some recommendations that we each have. We've

1151
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 1: mentioned some of them already, but Samantha, let's let's hear

1152
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 1: your recommendations for some cozy games.

1153
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:31,440
Speaker 3: So kind of going on the storytelling ones. I've got

1154
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:35,400
Speaker 3: two and this one, Snuffkins, is probably one of the

1155
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 3: most cozy. Like you sit and just look at the

1156
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:42,520
Speaker 3: scenery types. The drawings are beautiful, the music is relaxing,

1157
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 3: the characters are cute, and there's a whole little story.

1158
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 3: It is, like I think it only takes like a

1159
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 3: few hours to finish up, because it is very like

1160
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:52,080
Speaker 3: from beginning to end. But it's such a great tell

1161
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 3: you should take a chance. I actually said Annie a

1162
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:57,760
Speaker 3: picture of myself getting real cozy doing this and sent

1163
01:04:57,800 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 3: her pictures of clips of the game because I was like,

1164
01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:02,120
Speaker 3: you have to see this game. She hasn't yet, but

1165
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:05,479
Speaker 3: it's such a such a fun game. And then Coffee Talk,

1166
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:08,800
Speaker 3: which has a one and two. It's really interesting, kind

1167
01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 3: of goes into like eighties nineties graphics, but it tells

1168
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:14,400
Speaker 3: a whole story and you've got to make coffee throughout.

1169
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:17,640
Speaker 3: So I think those two are like two great storytelling games.

1170
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:20,520
Speaker 3: And then Cozy Grove, if you like a haunted Bear

1171
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:23,360
Speaker 3: Island is exactly what you think. I love it. I

1172
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:25,280
Speaker 3: love it so much and it does. It is also

1173
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 3: in real time, so it changes with the seasons with

1174
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 3: you and the day and the night. There's Donut County,

1175
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 3: so if you like mayhem and chaos and raccoons.

1176
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 2: Go for it.

1177
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 3: I love funny.

1178
01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 2: I love funny.

1179
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 3: There's little puzzles throughout you have to solve in order

1180
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:44,040
Speaker 3: to make things happen, whether catch on fire or put

1181
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:46,800
Speaker 3: into a hole. You just go with that, and then

1182
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:49,160
Speaker 3: Lemon Cake if you like to make and bake things.

1183
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 3: I think it's a really cute graphics and it teaches

1184
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 3: you different recipes about So those are my recommendations for today.

1185
01:05:57,200 --> 01:05:59,360
Speaker 1: I like how it could change tomorrow.

1186
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:03,720
Speaker 2: I can't good it could mine. I'm gonna disclaim I

1187
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 2: love horror so much. These are definitely not for everyone,

1188
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:08,120
Speaker 2: and some would argue they don't count. Also, we didn't

1189
01:06:08,120 --> 01:06:11,960
Speaker 2: go into this, but there's an argument about your comfort

1190
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:14,280
Speaker 2: game and your cozy game. So last most two would

1191
01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 2: be my comfort game, not my cozy game. But so

1192
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,400
Speaker 2: mine are Oxen Free, which is just really pretty kind

1193
01:06:21,440 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 2: of text based game. It's got a cool story. It's

1194
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 2: very stranger Things Gone Home, which yes we've talked about.

1195
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,200
Speaker 2: I won't go into it. It's really good. And then

1196
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:32,479
Speaker 2: I also liked Coffee Talk, which Samantha had me play,

1197
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 2: and it's just really fun. It's got like vampires and

1198
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 2: wear wolves and you're making coffee.

1199
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:40,000
Speaker 1: I love it. Holy cow, I've never heard of that before.

1200
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:43,760
Speaker 1: I'll have to look that one up. As for myself, well,

1201
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 1: one I want to mention is a game called Pentiment.

1202
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:48,680
Speaker 1: I don't know if either of you have ever seen this.

1203
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:52,800
Speaker 1: It's a game where you're playing a artist in medieval

1204
01:06:53,120 --> 01:06:57,760
Speaker 1: Europe and you are illuminating manuscripts, and all of the

1205
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:01,360
Speaker 1: dialogue is in word bubbles, and every character has their

1206
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:04,040
Speaker 1: own handwriting style, so like if you're talking to a monk,

1207
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:07,920
Speaker 1: it's super fancy type setting, and if you're talking to

1208
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:10,960
Speaker 1: a commoner, it's like more like chicken scratch. But then

1209
01:07:11,080 --> 01:07:14,200
Speaker 1: murder happens, and you're essentially there to help try and

1210
01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:17,440
Speaker 1: solve murders. Here's the thing about Pentiment. You're never told

1211
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:23,040
Speaker 1: what actually happened. You have to determine what you think happened,

1212
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:26,680
Speaker 1: and you come to your conclusion and you you present

1213
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:29,080
Speaker 1: your argument. But even at the end of the game,

1214
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:31,720
Speaker 1: you're never told if you were right or wrong. So

1215
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:36,000
Speaker 1: that's kind of a fascinating element that I had not

1216
01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:41,560
Speaker 1: anticipated from such a game. Other suggestions, I mean, Stardo

1217
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:43,520
Speaker 1: Valley is always going to be a suggestion, but we've

1218
01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:46,960
Speaker 1: talked about that, you know, ad nauseum, I would say

1219
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:51,200
Speaker 1: Disney Dreamlight Valley. If you're a total Disney nut. It's

1220
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 1: very heavily branded to Disney, So if you're not into it,

1221
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:58,160
Speaker 1: it is not your thing, but it's very cozy, and

1222
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 1: for the lovecrafty and horror fans out there, you should

1223
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 1: play Dredge, a creepy deep sea fishing game, but it's

1224
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:08,200
Speaker 1: it's kind of cozy. You're like running a boat and

1225
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:12,000
Speaker 1: fishing in different areas, and it's not like Super It

1226
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 1: doesn't have like a lot of twitchy elements to it,

1227
01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:17,840
Speaker 1: and the story is really entertaining, but it does have

1228
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:22,479
Speaker 1: a lovecrafty and kind of weird horror energy going on in.

1229
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:24,840
Speaker 3: That nice I'll have to look at that.

1230
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:28,000
Speaker 1: It's fun. There's another game called Dave the Diver, where

1231
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:31,519
Speaker 1: by day you are diving to capture fish and by

1232
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:34,519
Speaker 1: night you run a sushi restaurant. And the funny thing

1233
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:38,520
Speaker 1: is Dave the Diver actually has a crossover with Dredge,

1234
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 1: and they also did a crossover with Godzilla. Oh really, of.

1235
01:08:42,280 --> 01:08:45,360
Speaker 3: Course they did. That sounds that sounds it's just Japanese

1236
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:46,879
Speaker 3: because that's Japanese.

1237
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 1: Really, yeah, it's a Korean game, and it is. It

1238
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:54,200
Speaker 1: is wild. It is uh, it's the The local translation

1239
01:08:54,360 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 1: is pretty good for Dave the Diver, but there are

1240
01:08:57,320 --> 01:08:59,479
Speaker 1: little bits where you're like, oh, this was not this

1241
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:04,639
Speaker 1: was not Maid in America. It is is a fantastic game, though,

1242
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 1: Dave the Diver and Dredge together, if you can play

1243
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 1: the two of them, I would recommend playing Dredge first

1244
01:09:10,280 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 1: and then Dave the Diver. They're great companion games. Well,

1245
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:17,600
Speaker 1: Annie and Samantha, this has been a great conversation. You know,

1246
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:19,479
Speaker 1: we talked about some heavy stuff, but we talked about

1247
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:22,120
Speaker 1: a lot of fun and joyful stuff too, And I

1248
01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:26,759
Speaker 1: think that is the perfect kind of tech Stuff episode

1249
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:31,480
Speaker 1: right where it's it's not all grim and dour and dystopian,

1250
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:36,240
Speaker 1: but at the same time, we take the effort to

1251
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:41,320
Speaker 1: explore the maybe you know, the the more unseemly sides

1252
01:09:41,360 --> 01:09:45,120
Speaker 1: of a of a topic, because only by addressing it

1253
01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:48,439
Speaker 1: can we ever hope to make things better. That's at

1254
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:52,160
Speaker 1: least my own opinion. I realize that I may be

1255
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:53,640
Speaker 1: an eternal optimist.

1256
01:09:55,560 --> 01:10:01,439
Speaker 2: Well that's a good way to be. Thank you so

1257
01:10:01,520 --> 01:10:03,160
Speaker 2: much for having us. It's has been a delight.

1258
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:06,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great way to kind of run down

1259
01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:11,920
Speaker 1: my run on tech stuff because I didn't reach out

1260
01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:16,040
Speaker 1: enough to my fellow stuff podcasters. It can get so

1261
01:10:16,160 --> 01:10:19,040
Speaker 1: easy for us to get into our own like routines

1262
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:23,040
Speaker 1: and the grind and just trying to create episode after episode.

1263
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:25,760
Speaker 1: I don't know how it is for y'all, but for me,

1264
01:10:26,840 --> 01:10:28,680
Speaker 1: there would be moments like I would wake up in

1265
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:31,040
Speaker 1: the morning and I would just start the dread of

1266
01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:34,360
Speaker 1: what am I going to find to talk about this

1267
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:37,160
Speaker 1: week would start to descend upon me, and that was

1268
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:39,599
Speaker 1: enough to prevent me from even just reaching out. I

1269
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:41,960
Speaker 1: now wish one of my biggest regrets is I didn't

1270
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:48,240
Speaker 1: reach out more to do collaborative episodes with my fellow

1271
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:51,960
Speaker 1: stuff podcasters, in particular, because I know we worked together

1272
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:54,200
Speaker 1: so well, Because I mean, Annie and I had to

1273
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:59,280
Speaker 1: She sat at my left hand side, and poor Lauren,

1274
01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:02,479
Speaker 1: who sat across from us, had to endure just an

1275
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:05,719
Speaker 1: endless supply of puns. True.

1276
01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:08,360
Speaker 2: True, we owe her a lot.

1277
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:13,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, apologies. Yeah pizza maybe I don't know, but

1278
01:11:13,479 --> 01:11:15,760
Speaker 1: not on a delivery app service. We talked about that

1279
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:20,519
Speaker 1: and boy those no okay, but yeah, I thank you

1280
01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:22,760
Speaker 1: so much for coming on. It was it was a

1281
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:23,400
Speaker 1: real pleasure.

1282
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:25,519
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having us. I'm glad we

1283
01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 2: got to do this. Before you hang up your tech

1284
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:30,360
Speaker 2: stuff coach chat.

1285
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:35,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what, I got so little merch after

1286
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:37,120
Speaker 1: running it for sixteen and a half years, you'd think

1287
01:11:37,160 --> 01:11:41,240
Speaker 1: i'd have at least a hoodie, but I've got a

1288
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:45,519
Speaker 1: T shirt where most of the lettering has peeled off. Well,

1289
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,479
Speaker 1: if if my listeners out there haven't heard by now,

1290
01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:50,439
Speaker 1: you need to go and check out stuff. Mom never

1291
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:55,559
Speaker 1: told you. The episodes are phenomenal. You tackle pretty much

1292
01:11:55,600 --> 01:11:58,719
Speaker 1: any topic you can think of. Uh. The dating episode,

1293
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:02,640
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, it was so informative and interesting to

1294
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:05,760
Speaker 1: hear because again being out of the dating game for

1295
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:13,400
Speaker 1: more than thirty years now hearing how things have changed culturally, technologically, socially.

1296
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:17,160
Speaker 1: For one thing, I felt like I understood people better

1297
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:21,320
Speaker 1: because I'm rapidly descending into grouchy old man who yells

1298
01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:22,600
Speaker 1: at Cloud's territory.

1299
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:30,599
Speaker 3: I've been there.

1300
01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:32,479
Speaker 1: For some of us. It's life goals, honestly, Like you know,

1301
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:35,439
Speaker 1: you could be the person who's just like ah outside

1302
01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:37,799
Speaker 1: on the front lawn and everyone's like, oh, that's Jonathan.

1303
01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 1: It's it's actually very freeing. For one thing, my social

1304
01:12:44,040 --> 01:12:50,479
Speaker 1: calendar is wide open now. That's nice. Yeah, I like it.

1305
01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:52,840
Speaker 1: Like it's like, hey, no obligations, I could do whatever

1306
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:56,120
Speaker 1: I want. Let's play some cozy games, y'all. And thus

1307
01:12:56,160 --> 01:13:00,920
Speaker 1: my STARDUW Valley Hours played just grows and grows. For

1308
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 1: all of my listeners out there, I hope you enjoyed

1309
01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:06,000
Speaker 1: this episode. Go check out stuff Mom never told you,

1310
01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:09,120
Speaker 1: and I will talk to you again really soon, but

1311
01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:19,280
Speaker 1: only a couple more times. Tech Stuff is an iHeartRadio production.

1312
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:24,600
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1313
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:30,120
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.