Speaker 1: M M. You're listening to Playback, a Variety I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio podcast. I'm your host, Variety Awards editor Chris Tapley.
Speaker 1: I'm talking to Lynn Ramsey this week, director of films
Speaker 1: like Rat Catcher, Morvin Caller, and we need to talk
Speaker 1: about Kevin her new film as You Were Never Really Here,
Speaker 1: which premiered at the can Film Festival almost a year ago,
Speaker 1: where she won an award for her lean and mean screenplay.
Speaker 1: We talked about the craft that went into the project,
Speaker 1: from the page to the editing room, and a whole
Speaker 1: lot more. So, sit tight. This is playback. I was
Speaker 1: like to get back to eleven quot last night. They
Speaker 1: made to leave about four, you know, so it's crazy
Speaker 1: and you've been kind of working with this movie since
Speaker 1: last year. Yeah, yes, let's stick it talking about it.
Speaker 1: Hopefully this will be better. Let me just make sure
Speaker 1: this uh directional mic, so if you're able to just
Speaker 1: talk into that as much as you can here with
Speaker 1: Lynn Ramsey today, the director of You Were Never Really Here,
Speaker 1: which everyone should see, and we'll start talking about in
Speaker 1: a moment. But I'd like to begin by mentioning that
Speaker 1: I have a son now. He's he's two years old
Speaker 1: and uh we need to talk about Kevin. Uh you know,
Speaker 1: I guess just bravo for terrifying me in perpetuity, who
Speaker 1: was not really sorry about that? I mean the sign
Speaker 1: of well honed craft. I guess just left me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: terrified is the word? So well, finally enough since they
Speaker 1: get three, it all so um but at cause it
Speaker 1: was one of those privable fears, you know, like, um,
Speaker 1: I think there was some skinnings in London actually where
Speaker 1: it was like you could take your kids along, you know,
Speaker 1: and someone unfortunate mothers probably way into those cash, so
Speaker 1: you channeled some of that then. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It was just like I think something in that material
Speaker 1: was really you know, um hit moms you know partents, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, like not just moms, you know, and about
Speaker 1: that fear where you know, whether you'll you know, love
Speaker 1: your son, you know, like we had. It was like
Speaker 1: in a taboo subject I guess, you know, um, not
Speaker 1: just that the mortal terror of having no idea how yeah, exactly, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I think mine's gonna do Okay, well we'll see,
Speaker 1: okay gives you what about that? Uh you know that film,
Speaker 1: this film you were never really here Morb in color,
Speaker 1: and you know, these were all taken from novels, and
Speaker 1: your last you know, fully original screenplay was rat Catcher.
Speaker 1: So I'm just curious if there is is uh, do
Speaker 1: you find the process of adaptation opens more doors for
Speaker 1: you as a director? Is there something? Is there like
Speaker 1: an ability to invade a space more so than living
Speaker 1: with it fully? Yeah, well, I don't really know. I
Speaker 1: mean it's you know, things happening a change way, because
Speaker 1: I still I love it. Originally titled Too, you know,
Speaker 1: but rat Catcher was really kind a culmination all like
Speaker 1: all my shorts and what I was doing and then
Speaker 1: and you know, I was, you know, I was a
Speaker 1: kind of kids out of film school, you know, and
Speaker 1: so it was you know that the film was a
Speaker 1: really special film to me. But all the crew and everyone,
Speaker 1: they were all first timers, you know. And since then
Speaker 1: the AID and the DP and stuff, you know, DP
Speaker 1: parts with Timmy Boil and then and it was like
Speaker 1: I think we're ready, you know, we're already green and
Speaker 1: it so it will always be a spatial thing. And
Speaker 1: I hadn't seen that film for twenty years unless so
Speaker 1: like last year a f I and it was a
Speaker 1: bunch of students, so she was kind of really a
Speaker 1: lovely experience, you know. Um, but yeah, in terms of adaptations,
Speaker 1: it's just I thing Morvin Caller came along. It was
Speaker 1: I thought it was really ir reverend like the character.
Speaker 1: It was like, um, the writer kind of kills himself
Speaker 1: off in the book, you know. And then I met
Speaker 1: Samanthel Morton, so she, you know, who saw you were
Speaker 1: never really here a couple of weeks ago and described
Speaker 1: it as a She said, it's like the Francis Bacon paint,
Speaker 1: which is a brilliant you know. So you know, she
Speaker 1: was just like amazing. But but I don't think I've
Speaker 1: ever really done a kind of released a literally adaptation.
Speaker 1: They've always been like kind of I suppose my cinematic
Speaker 1: taking it or you know, how to translate that into
Speaker 1: a film, and like, and they'd be quite different from
Speaker 1: the source material. And and that's been something maybe I've
Speaker 1: just slightly discussed up front with you know, whoever wrote
Speaker 1: the material and stead it was John Eames too, you know,
Speaker 1: and I haven't read his work, but I understand this
Speaker 1: book was considerably different from some of his other work. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean he told me it was in response to
Speaker 1: a break up he had like you know, a big
Speaker 1: you know them he writes a lot of comedy, you know.
Speaker 1: Um it was quite short book, which I found really
Speaker 1: in chasing in a way because unlike Caven, which was
Speaker 1: a huge book, and it was in the former layers, um,
Speaker 1: which you know it was. It was very really it
Speaker 1: was a really difficult adaptation that um was. This was
Speaker 1: you know, you could read it in ninety minutes. Probably
Speaker 1: the lamee of this of this movie, you know, um
Speaker 1: face short. And I love those movies like you know,
Speaker 1: The Postman, Alas, things Twice and things like that. We're
Speaker 1: based in short novellas. And like I grew up with Noir,
Speaker 1: so it was like kind of the my mom was
Speaker 1: just ding you know, Noir and Hitchcook and like differently,
Speaker 1: you know, they were quite you know, they were working
Speaker 1: class people with there. I realized later they were real
Speaker 1: film buffs, you know, the studio system you know, and
Speaker 1: you know, you know those things like you know, I
Speaker 1: just I saw I remember seen Doling Night really young. Um.
Speaker 1: I remember seeing um Invitation of Life, you know, and
Speaker 1: things like you know, there's so there was these kind
Speaker 1: of studio movies that were amazing like that that was
Speaker 1: doling names but um so much. But but yeah, like that,
Speaker 1: so something attracted me me about this face short, you know,
Speaker 1: like which I was able to me It meant I
Speaker 1: was able to kind of almost kind of take and
Speaker 1: you know, run with it and definitely wise and you know,
Speaker 1: kind of explode it in more detail, you know. Um,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think it was quite definitely from what
Speaker 1: Johnathan names are written before. You know, yeah, you were
Speaker 1: starting to get into it there. But you know, I'm
Speaker 1: a particular fan of your work because there's always been
Speaker 1: as economy at play. Uh and and you know, the
Speaker 1: visual storytelling is lean, but it's very potent. And I
Speaker 1: feel like this is the case across the board and
Speaker 1: certainly with this um for probably largely what you're mentioning
Speaker 1: the fact that it was such a kind of streamlined
Speaker 1: story on the page to begin with. But with that
Speaker 1: in mind, your inspirations you've mentioned a few there, but
Speaker 1: just in general, Uh, you know, what's your favorite movie? Who?
Speaker 1: Who is your favorite filmmaker current or you know, not
Speaker 1: a contemporary. Um, well, there's all the usual suspects, I cause,
Speaker 1: yea filmmakers, you know, I mean Funnily enough, two weeks ago,
Speaker 1: I was on this program with a great kind of
Speaker 1: presenter called Mark Kermodes, and you know, he does this
Speaker 1: kind of like um, pretty cool program where you know,
Speaker 1: let people go in the cinema and it's a life
Speaker 1: you know show and people come on and they talk
Speaker 1: about movies. And because it's the fiftiesh Anniversity of Two
Speaker 1: Days and One, you know, the sort of clap and
Speaker 1: the preface of Kimo whose curing Cubertics work, and then
Speaker 1: you just see like a clip of that, and well
Speaker 1: I hadn't seen it for a while, and I was
Speaker 1: just like, oh my god, you know, the cinema, like
Speaker 1: if we went backwards. I mean, it was just like
Speaker 1: it's so in five minutes, sums up mankind and the
Speaker 1: opening scene you know, and so and one thing I
Speaker 1: didn't realize, and what the Perfectors professor has said was
Speaker 1: that the satellites when you know, you have the eight
Speaker 1: scene and the bone goes up like you know, um
Speaker 1: going around there, for it was actually a voiceover originally
Speaker 1: and they were bones, you know. Um, And so it
Speaker 1: just kind of like, I don't know, it was just
Speaker 1: a bit on inspiring. You see such amazing work. Again. Um,
Speaker 1: but I was a big fan of Bergman, I guess,
Speaker 1: like and Nick Rogue and like and David Lynch and
Speaker 1: that I was fifteen at the time, so blue Velvet,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it was a Plin eighteen, you know.
Speaker 1: But somehow vigled my way into the cinema with a
Speaker 1: boy my boyfriend at the time. And oh yeah, I
Speaker 1: haven't seen a new one yet. But actually a studio
Speaker 1: Canal who released the movie, um, my movie in the
Speaker 1: UK just recently. Um, their present to me was the
Speaker 1: new twin Peaks box set, so that was a pretty
Speaker 1: cool present. But just I've seen that movie and in
Speaker 1: Glasgow and you know, you know, it was probably I
Speaker 1: don't know, ladies well, early nineties or something like that.
Speaker 1: I don't remember exactly the year, but but it was
Speaker 1: and you know, lots of people walked out. No one
Speaker 1: knew what this was. It was just um, you know,
Speaker 1: and I've seen a lot of films, but the landscape
Speaker 1: at the time was you know that we'd go and
Speaker 1: see studio movies or whatever, and it was just like
Speaker 1: it just totally blew my mind. I was like, why
Speaker 1: why are these films not you know, why have I
Speaker 1: never seen anything like this before. But he walked out
Speaker 1: of that movie and you were like, I felt I
Speaker 1: was instill in blue velvet, like for the rest in
Speaker 1: the night, you know, And that was like, oh my god.
Speaker 1: That it was kind of like virtual reality in a way. Yeah. Right,
Speaker 1: And speaking earlier two thousand and one, I think actually
Speaker 1: this very day is the fiftieth Anniverse inter Uh you
Speaker 1: know this movie you were never really here. There's so
Speaker 1: many elements to dissect and discuss, and I want to
Speaker 1: just talk about a few of them. The editing certainly,
Speaker 1: you know, I just talked about the lean nature of
Speaker 1: your storytelling, and uh, I love the bravery of just
Speaker 1: like getting out of a scene way quicker than you
Speaker 1: might expect, or coming into a scene way later than
Speaker 1: you might assume. You know, things like that. They that
Speaker 1: obviously builds the pace and provides a momentum, but it
Speaker 1: also kind of it creates this headspace. It creates this
Speaker 1: this psychological atmosphere I feel, And I just want to
Speaker 1: talk about your philosophy on editing. Um, well, this one, boys,
Speaker 1: I guess it was in a pouch that that was
Speaker 1: like do we have to see everything? Do we? H?
Speaker 1: You know, what's left to the imagining Asian you know, like, um,
Speaker 1: I think the audiences are quite sophisticated. And and also
Speaker 1: worked with amazing eador called Joe Bini that you know,
Speaker 1: you know, worked we hurt so before and he did
Speaker 1: my last movie where we were jumping around in time
Speaker 1: a lot, and so we learned a lot, you know,
Speaker 1: because that script was also very tight, you know, because
Speaker 1: that there was like, you know, it was really to
Speaker 1: the bone. He made that film so it was almost
Speaker 1: like armchair edited on paper. It was like it goes
Speaker 1: from this to this and this and this and here's
Speaker 1: the sound that connects them all. And um, but I
Speaker 1: think you know one thing he said that I thought
Speaker 1: it was really kind a beautiful thing. He says, like,
Speaker 1: you know, it was like he felt that we ed
Speaker 1: edited it together. You know, Um, it was. It was
Speaker 1: quite a it was pulled about half the time. There
Speaker 1: didn't know this of my last movie, you know, in
Speaker 1: terms of because it when he can and was crazy
Speaker 1: things happened. So after this crazy shoe, it was I
Speaker 1: thought it but you know, something dead and it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you've got a bit of headspace and whatever. What was
Speaker 1: it didn't really turn out like that. It was just like, um,
Speaker 1: suddenly a lot of crazy things hand can light and
Speaker 1: we didn't you know, they didn't have any credits. It
Speaker 1: was storyboards in it that you know. It was things
Speaker 1: like that. But getting back to your question, it was, UM,
Speaker 1: I think for a really exercise and economy for us
Speaker 1: and a and also what do you need to know
Speaker 1: you know, um? And what spaces that give other people
Speaker 1: you think about it about it, and and where is
Speaker 1: this character's headspace right now? And we certainly saw like, um,
Speaker 1: the you know, I don't I don't really like traditional
Speaker 1: flashbacks or anything like that. But there was as you know,
Speaker 1: post traumatic stress disorder cann element to it, which to
Speaker 1: me I so much more like shards and broken glass
Speaker 1: in his head. And I felt that we should be
Speaker 1: really that one or two emergies that would tell enough
Speaker 1: you know, UM, but also give this idea to a
Speaker 1: repetitive kind of um like louicids kind of hallucination you know,
Speaker 1: um and you know, but also we tried to keep
Speaker 1: this really propulsive narrative and one thing you know, you know,
Speaker 1: or just a feeling of the energy that that I felt,
Speaker 1: you know, the book was a real page Turner. I
Speaker 1: don't think he'd you know, John self admittedly was still
Speaker 1: finishing the book. It was only released in France. Um
Speaker 1: and you know, so it was a bit like me
Speaker 1: starting off this thing and go, you know, saying where
Speaker 1: is this going to go? And um, and it was
Speaker 1: it was more it was it was very organic compared
Speaker 1: to other films. So yeah, I was lucky in that
Speaker 1: that the financiers were, you know, we're rolling with me,
Speaker 1: changing things like as I went, you know, because only
Speaker 1: twenty nine days to shoot as well, and so it
Speaker 1: was quite a short script stepped and um and how
Speaker 1: long did the editing I'd say, but we never had
Speaker 1: a schedule. It was the weirdest thing. I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's just the way they work in France or whatever,
Speaker 1: but it was like there was no production schedule. So
Speaker 1: it was quite random in a way. And it was like, well,
Speaker 1: you know we've got you know, we be knew we
Speaker 1: I think you knew. We We felt like the material
Speaker 1: was really strong, Joe and I and then we we
Speaker 1: you know, we've done this thing. We've never show a
Speaker 1: digital before, you know, um, and you you send me
Speaker 1: more material. But I'm glad that I studied in the
Speaker 1: film because I think you're you're a bit more disciplined,
Speaker 1: you know, about what you're you get, you know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: But I didn't. I didn't even that much time. He
Speaker 1: watched the Last Years and I was shooting, you know,
Speaker 1: like so it was about remember we I said, did
Speaker 1: you let's get a mixing desk and we'll pre mix it.
Speaker 1: And we did, and then we watched all the rushes
Speaker 1: and did selects like again after the shoot from stuff
Speaker 1: I'd liked on the shoot, but I watched everything again.
Speaker 1: And then they persuaded him to get this mixing mixing desk,
Speaker 1: which was a big mistake because it kind of messed
Speaker 1: up his whole system and he lost all his work
Speaker 1: and so he listed these films that made and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. But we we were always thinking about the
Speaker 1: signs there later on as well, you know, like the
Speaker 1: Paul Davis, my sound designer, and started really early because
Speaker 1: I thought it wasn't like a conventional ledit. It wasn't
Speaker 1: like just a picture cut and then you put a
Speaker 1: signd on later and then you put the music on later.
Speaker 1: It was like picture cut then go back to the
Speaker 1: sounds being the signed and we cut you know, with
Speaker 1: the sound of mine, you know, the picture and also
Speaker 1: the music because Johnny Johnny greenwo doesn't score to picture either,
Speaker 1: you know, like it's more like a feeling. And so
Speaker 1: he saw the film very chronologically. It was like here's
Speaker 1: ten minutes, here's twenty. You know, we got to here.
Speaker 1: So we said we did it now. We that we
Speaker 1: edited in a way in the end where we were
Speaker 1: really happy, you know, to a piece like you know,
Speaker 1: like here's the first really cool half an hour, you know,
Speaker 1: like this is And we didn't show the whole ledit.
Speaker 1: You know, we'd be like we're up to here, which
Speaker 1: is unusual, you know, yeah, but like that, but like
Speaker 1: that I've written so far, and a little bit like
Speaker 1: that in the ends. I mean, we hadn't we but
Speaker 1: we I think, I mean, Joe was certainly really like um,
Speaker 1: he was an ELI at the time. I've seen in
Speaker 1: New York, and he was very excited by the material.
Speaker 1: And then you know, there was a few things that
Speaker 1: happened along the way where it was like, you know,
Speaker 1: some things that I felt didn't work as much, and
Speaker 1: and and so it was being quite bold about you know,
Speaker 1: sing let's you know, reconfigure this a little bit and
Speaker 1: talk to him a bit. And the whole surveillance thing
Speaker 1: camera thing was something we tested because I've never had
Speaker 1: reshoots ever in any film of works on, and I'm
Speaker 1: always really envious and directors to say, oh, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: doing these reshoots. I'm like, so, I was quite risky
Speaker 1: thing to do that, And so I told you my thoughts.
Speaker 1: He came in New York and you know, we started
Speaker 1: thinking about how we were going to use a sign
Speaker 1: in the music and all those things really dead. It
Speaker 1: was all coming from the psychology of the character. Where
Speaker 1: is he at this point? You know, when does they breakdown?
Speaker 1: You know, when you know you know where is this?
Speaker 1: You know? You know it was a bit of a beast, really,
Speaker 1: you know, Chitan this thing. But I think we were
Speaker 1: so disciplined, you know, um like, I don't think even
Speaker 1: this samply was that long. I think it was like
Speaker 1: a hundred minutes or something. Hundeon taine maybe. Yeah. People
Speaker 1: aren't aware. Usually assemblies are like hours and hours long,
Speaker 1: and normally you're starting to talk about the sound there.
Speaker 1: I'd love to talk about that's another element. I mean,
Speaker 1: the sound is its whole other uh, just kind of
Speaker 1: doorway into the psychology of the character Johnny Greenwood during
Speaker 1: the score. You guys work together on Kevin as well.
Speaker 1: But what kind of sonic environment did you want to
Speaker 1: build here? Is is this the kind of thing that
Speaker 1: uh you let Johnny kind of come with his feeler
Speaker 1: you do you present him with, like what's that dynamic
Speaker 1: like with you do? Well? First of all, I mean
Speaker 1: that's sporting him quite early augmented Ltney I've seen. It
Speaker 1: was the scripts, which was kind of the same place
Speaker 1: for everything but was still evolving. And then the whole
Speaker 1: thing went any production, which was really bonkers. That doesn't
Speaker 1: happen every day. It's like, um, because Joachim was free
Speaker 1: and you know Amazon like strips it can and like
Speaker 1: just a lot of things happened, and I hadn't really
Speaker 1: finished it, you know, Like it was I was still
Speaker 1: working on it, and I thought it was going to
Speaker 1: be shooting in the fall, and then suddenly I was
Speaker 1: shooting in the summer, and it was a bit crazy. Um.
Speaker 1: But like Johnny that I talked to him, like about
Speaker 1: the the nature that that I wanted to to have
Speaker 1: this thing that it drove that we were driving forward
Speaker 1: we talked about Carpenter a lot, but you know, but
Speaker 1: those are kind of like in the more broad strokes.
Speaker 1: He loves pender Ecke. I love pender ech Here and
Speaker 1: always loved this Effects Twin track called Rhubarb that that
Speaker 1: you know, I've never it's so beautiful that it's almost
Speaker 1: too you can never find an image for it, you know.
Speaker 1: But I think he did his own thoughts as well,
Speaker 1: and we talked about strings and using like that, and
Speaker 1: it was becoming obviously it season two radio Head at
Speaker 1: the time, and I didn't I didn't even know if
Speaker 1: you have timey do it. And he was like, he's
Speaker 1: quite a more dis guy, and he's like, I look,
Speaker 1: you know, like this is crazy. But when he saw them,
Speaker 1: I think when he he started to engage in what
Speaker 1: the car I think, And even though we did it
Speaker 1: quite remotely, which was weird because Kevin would add went
Speaker 1: a lot to the studio, you know, but what was
Speaker 1: really great about that was like he was kind of
Speaker 1: seeing the character evolved, and so the music was involved
Speaker 1: in a bit like the character. So you know, it
Speaker 1: feels like you know what it's going to be at first,
Speaker 1: you know that, and there was just so many brilliant
Speaker 1: pieces of music. He scent like, um, but that Joe
Speaker 1: and I would be running up and down the room,
Speaker 1: like the corridor of the editing rooms, and I think
Speaker 1: feeling like we've got a president if we got his music,
Speaker 1: were like, oh my god, you know that And and
Speaker 1: it was inspired by the characters. Music was very inspired
Speaker 1: by the character and the feeling New York and what
Speaker 1: Paul Davis was doing with the sign design, and also
Speaker 1: that I thought the smart thing he do was to
Speaker 1: get Johnny's engineer involved, who was there in the studio
Speaker 1: with us, so he knew the music really well and
Speaker 1: he edited was a music head in the film. But
Speaker 1: really it was like remembody watched LL four, which is
Speaker 1: the final really the film um and he was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I love Real four. It's completely mad,
Speaker 1: it's completely crazy. It's bonkers like and and that that
Speaker 1: character started to implode in the music started to implode,
Speaker 1: and you know, and that giving them this kind of
Speaker 1: chronological version of the character was really I think informative.
Speaker 1: But you know, we we didn't really go like this
Speaker 1: is going to be the way it is. It was like,
Speaker 1: I think things were just gravitating towards certain things, and
Speaker 1: he had ideas and like I think early on we
Speaker 1: you know, we booked some studio time, which I think
Speaker 1: they had to really like, there wasn't money for us score.
Speaker 1: And even though it's the more it's the most scored
Speaker 1: thing thing I've ever done, Like you know, um, it's
Speaker 1: the most scored film, and I knew would be a score.
Speaker 1: There was like we're literally to the wires and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. There wasn't a lot of means to do
Speaker 1: things that I remember fighting really ugly on to get
Speaker 1: like a bunch of musicians together. I think the most
Speaker 1: was like it might have been about eight musicians altogether,
Speaker 1: you know. Um. And we were looking at a tonal
Speaker 1: kind of signs um and and and Paul Davis was
Speaker 1: doing strange things and playing some things backwards, you know,
Speaker 1: and and that or you know, the signs in the
Speaker 1: movie even with the traffic and stuff that you that
Speaker 1: there's something wrong, but you don't know kind of what
Speaker 1: it is, you know, And it was like it's an
Speaker 1: unsettling kind of thing. And then I did I tried
Speaker 1: one little you know, one thing that came up was
Speaker 1: and one of the sequences a surveillance sequences out, you know,
Speaker 1: I was like, well, do we go the room tone?
Speaker 1: Do we make it? You know, do we make it
Speaker 1: like you know, the feeling of the camera, do we
Speaker 1: you know? And then we tried several things and like
Speaker 1: there do you slowly and none of none of it
Speaker 1: seto working in a I put this temp track on
Speaker 1: Angel Baby like, which was just like literally plucked from
Speaker 1: something that quite light, you know, and then nothing else
Speaker 1: would ever work, you know, and then I thought, why
Speaker 1: don't we you know, we we do where the camera
Speaker 1: jumps will take the time slice out of the music,
Speaker 1: you know, let us see if that I don't know, like,
Speaker 1: let's just try it, you know. I talked to Paul
Speaker 1: about that, and and something really always happens when it
Speaker 1: feels like the track is playing. You know, you don't
Speaker 1: really notice that, but your brain does, so it kind
Speaker 1: of it's really disturbing, you know. So so there's a
Speaker 1: lot of work in those sounds right from day one,
Speaker 1: in conjunction, in conjunction with the music, you know, and
Speaker 1: having you know, Johnny's guy Graham there as well. It
Speaker 1: was really cool because it was like, you know, this
Speaker 1: whole thing was all coming together as one thing rather
Speaker 1: than it being separate entities. Totally. I love it. I
Speaker 1: love the Johnny you know, he's kind of part of this,
Speaker 1: do you know ration, I guess if you'll call it that.
Speaker 1: Of composers, there's there's a number of them who are
Speaker 1: blurring the line between like traditional film music and sound design. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Le that was just about to see Mika as well,
Speaker 1: and rest his soul was brilliant. So it's really cool
Speaker 1: whenever you pull that off. Did anything inspire you on
Speaker 1: just the look? You know, particularly the camera movement, which
Speaker 1: I thought was a notable quality this time around. Tom
Speaker 1: Townsend is your DP. This time you mentioned Alvin Cookler
Speaker 1: earlier you working them a couple of times, and Shamus Onsel.
Speaker 1: I've been lucky watching some amazing dps, almost Darious conc Well,
Speaker 1: Daddy is nice, speak all the same about you know,
Speaker 1: he's he's amazing. In fact, he he was the one
Speaker 1: that said to jack him about me. I think you
Speaker 1: know he's you know, it was like Wackim was asking
Speaker 1: asking him about some filmmakers and and she's me. And
Speaker 1: that's how Jachima think haired about me. But Daddy's way
Speaker 1: you see the movie, I got a little month ago
Speaker 1: or some thinks his daughter loved it and so I
Speaker 1: sat up with scoming here. But yeah, we'll do something together,
Speaker 1: I'm sure. Also worked with Natasha Bears, who showed the
Speaker 1: sport that for me called the swimmer like their swimmer
Speaker 1: um for the Olympics, which is a bit more like
Speaker 1: an art piece. But it's just like it's all inspiringly
Speaker 1: beautiful and she she's great. So she's coming along with
Speaker 1: the scimming, you know, like I thinking Friday night. So
Speaker 1: but I'd be lucky with the people I've worked with,
Speaker 1: like you know, you know, world class tps. Oh you know,
Speaker 1: and you know, but we all started we all started
Speaker 1: to you know, the National Film School, a lot of
Speaker 1: you know, most of us, you know. Um, But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I've known Tom for twenty odd years. Like
Speaker 1: he shot like a lot of commercials, but he's he
Speaker 1: was a stealth photographer first and he's amazing, Like so
Speaker 1: you knows my visual wine, which really well and he
Speaker 1: did attack the block and like, you know, so it's
Speaker 1: quite different from this, you know, but he he we've
Speaker 1: known each other so well. It's almost like, you know,
Speaker 1: because of the nature that it had been twenty nine days.
Speaker 1: It was like we'd meet up like very early, um,
Speaker 1: we did short less, but we would do short Less
Speaker 1: again every day, um and and be really boiling it
Speaker 1: down and boiling it don't I was like, how do
Speaker 1: do show? How do we do? How do one? I do?
Speaker 1: Maybe this work and this time and be clever to
Speaker 1: make that time work because we didn't have like the
Speaker 1: four days for the action sequence that you might have,
Speaker 1: like we had half a day, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: So you know, um that that was a challenge, but
Speaker 1: it was you know, it was there was a lot
Speaker 1: of light bulb moments within them. And you know, I've
Speaker 1: never I said, I've never shot an UM digital before.
Speaker 1: I mean I've shot a bit of five D stuff
Speaker 1: and Kevin that like with stuff I was shooting in
Speaker 1: the way that's saying stuff that some of it was
Speaker 1: kind and I think we have a disaster one time
Speaker 1: with the light sulk and down and you know one
Speaker 1: of the scenes and that was the five days well
Speaker 1: but on Kevin, but it was you know, I've been
Speaker 1: lucky enough to shoot everything in film and you know
Speaker 1: this one was a weird one where it was just
Speaker 1: like kind of you know, I think it's just that
Speaker 1: whenever films mentioned, people just think it's going to be
Speaker 1: super expensive, but you have to just do the homework yourself,
Speaker 1: and like you know, and just like everyone says it's
Speaker 1: going to be four hundred days, and it's just like
Speaker 1: it's a kind of phony number, you know. But I
Speaker 1: wasn't again shooting digital. It was like, you know, I
Speaker 1: was more like I was thinking about shooting like um
Speaker 1: digital for a night and fell for a day. But
Speaker 1: then Tom and I did a lot of tests and
Speaker 1: so that you know, Luke became to the point where
Speaker 1: and I used to know us swept all for myself
Speaker 1: so that I was like, ah, this is you know,
Speaker 1: it looks great. And we actually did a very natural look.
Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't too messed around with me. So
Speaker 1: were that grade became a grade that actually stayed for
Speaker 1: most of the thing. You know that so that when
Speaker 1: we said I kind of look um and we were
Speaker 1: never leating in New York, there was like the you know,
Speaker 1: the traditional Manhattan skyline, you know, like Tim Grinds, a
Speaker 1: production designer who's a reason and also this we found
Speaker 1: this amazing um location manager found all these kind of
Speaker 1: places that were pretty off the beating track, and so
Speaker 1: it presented a different side of New York. And I
Speaker 1: remember be shot one day. We were coming back from
Speaker 1: something like I was in Yonkers or somewhere, and we
Speaker 1: shot one shot which was the most beautiful show. I
Speaker 1: thought it was like all the way through New York
Speaker 1: went through windows like you know, and it was like
Speaker 1: I had this kind of feeling that it could just
Speaker 1: be a film in its own in a way. And
Speaker 1: I used a lot of footage from that that show,
Speaker 1: you know. Um, but yeah, I think between Tim James,
Speaker 1: Tom and Slash Swinger he did the find the locations
Speaker 1: and also whackings Luke. You know that that no one
Speaker 1: there was no selfie people there, no one recognized them.
Speaker 1: Um you know, like you look like construction worker or something.
Speaker 1: You know that that there was a real Funnily enough,
Speaker 1: I saw the French connection when I came nearly afterwards
Speaker 1: who worked video Beanie, who was still in the Ellian
Speaker 1: just about to move to London, and and we were
Speaker 1: invited to the screening and we were like, we're just
Speaker 1: blown away with what they got away with, you know,
Speaker 1: like that car chase and and also the fact the
Speaker 1: film for the first hours, like just surveillance, like you
Speaker 1: even you know, it's a different pace and I hadn't
Speaker 1: seen it since I was a kid, So what was
Speaker 1: exciting about seeing that? Was like, oh god, I think
Speaker 1: we've kept we captured a little bit New York in
Speaker 1: a way that's hard to capture now, you know, Like,
Speaker 1: so what do you think of the you know, speaking
Speaker 1: of New York. A lot of people bring up Taxi
Speaker 1: Driver with this movie is that it doesn't annoy you
Speaker 1: because it's an amazing I mean like it's had to
Speaker 1: be annoyed because you know, it's a classic movie. It's
Speaker 1: more like you feel like you know you're your destiny
Speaker 1: for a fall like from that. You know, Um, I
Speaker 1: can honestly say, you know that we didn't like, you know,
Speaker 1: there wasn't that kind of referencing movie, Like it was
Speaker 1: so fast and we weren't thinking all books a bit
Speaker 1: like this or a bit like that. It was like
Speaker 1: really coming from how the locations fell and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: And Tom down ends like he knows every movie, so
Speaker 1: he will be the first time up with like, you know,
Speaker 1: some reference to some other thing. To me, it was
Speaker 1: more if he were going down that route be more
Speaker 1: like point blank or China sign or something like that.
Speaker 1: So but I don't when I'm making a movie, I
Speaker 1: don't really anything that much the other movies. I'm just like,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, whacking himself was becoming this kind
Speaker 1: of like he came he came along seping weeks early,
Speaker 1: like as soon as we started with Tom, the DP
Speaker 1: turns up the actor where I've got like ninety five
Speaker 1: locations to see, you know, And so it was it
Speaker 1: was it was pretty crazy, and it was I think
Speaker 1: that also been in that heat was mad, you know.
Speaker 1: But it was a very young crew. They were all
Speaker 1: like X Y M y U or Colombia and a
Speaker 1: lot I found out later a lot for directors. And
Speaker 1: there was a really good energy on it, like what
Speaker 1: the hell is going this? And it felt very electric
Speaker 1: and like you know that and fun and like you're
Speaker 1: you know, like but always we were thinking about how
Speaker 1: he no just film was there like but go beyond
Speaker 1: things like you know, always like this this feel dumb
Speaker 1: or could be made this, So how do you how
Speaker 1: can we think about this in a way that's more
Speaker 1: interest and so and certainly Joakim was you know that
Speaker 1: it's not and the book. He's not built like that,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not like you know, he's actually building
Speaker 1: up this armor. And I was really lighting the way
Speaker 1: he walked, and we talked about this and the scars
Speaker 1: were becoming a a thing and and I'm that his
Speaker 1: performance I think influenced as well how we shot it,
Speaker 1: you know, that that we would have this you know
Speaker 1: capacity too. I mean, I think the way I love
Speaker 1: digital in this film is to you know, he was
Speaker 1: about like Samantha Morton and Morgan Calor. But it's hard
Speaker 1: to call cut, you know, you're like something you know
Speaker 1: he got. He got annoyed at me for not calling cut.
Speaker 1: But it was great because I was a ways to
Speaker 1: get this extra thing, you know, like and Toby and
Speaker 1: I said kind of geared up for that that he
Speaker 1: you know, when take was the same, not take was
Speaker 1: ever the same. And we were really fast. I mean
Speaker 1: we were like shooting like me twice sex say ups
Speaker 1: a day sometimes, you know, yeah, humming right along on
Speaker 1: this one. Um, you know, speaking earlier of Jane Gagan,
Speaker 1: if you wouldn't mind just touching on it, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: it's been a number of years removed from that whole
Speaker 1: episode for those who are not aware it was basically
Speaker 1: a creative situation between you and the producers I guess
Speaker 1: became untenable and you left the movie. Uh what did
Speaker 1: you take away in the wake of all of that? What?
Speaker 1: It just just what did you learn from that episode?
Speaker 1: What what stays with you as a result of that
Speaker 1: whole episode in your career? Um? I think mainly, you know,
Speaker 1: while laired, you know, that made some really cool people
Speaker 1: like Daddy's and Brian's Alfield and you know you have
Speaker 1: remains in cointact with and like it also just thought
Speaker 1: of creative ideas, you know, like you know, we're still there,
Speaker 1: They're still in my head. So it's just like you
Speaker 1: know they went and you know, the feudia that just
Speaker 1: everything I've learned it feels like you know, um, you
Speaker 1: know man who many dedators of like be Martin and
Speaker 1: films for years and it didn't work out or something
Speaker 1: happened in the counting room, and like you know, you
Speaker 1: have these sort of stories and things like that, but
Speaker 1: you have to you have to turn and write a
Speaker 1: bout and go, right, what did I get it from?
Speaker 1: You know, from you know, like whatever that situation was,
Speaker 1: It's like um, I learned everything I've done, I've learned
Speaker 1: so much, and so I felt I felt more experienced.
Speaker 1: I felt that I thought about in sequences, you know,
Speaker 1: pray in an interesting way, and I'm sure some of
Speaker 1: that maybe you know, like, um, informed this, Please just
Speaker 1: make a Western I hope you'll eventually do one, because
Speaker 1: I was really excited that you were going to make one,
Speaker 1: and I knew the guy who wrote the script and
Speaker 1: everything I read that script, I thought, this is perfect
Speaker 1: for her because she can put her fingerprint right on this,
Speaker 1: and this is gonna be awesome. Sorry, I hope it
Speaker 1: is a really taught, talented guy. And it was that
Speaker 1: scriptures in the Blacklist, and it was you know, it
Speaker 1: was it was pretty like I mean then remember the
Speaker 1: opening just been so like amazing and like and and
Speaker 1: and they opening in grades and and but you know, um,
Speaker 1: but I would like, you know, we'll see you know,
Speaker 1: like what's this space? You know? And then odd question
Speaker 1: here I was. I was on my way at the
Speaker 1: door and I was sort of rubbed wrong by a
Speaker 1: headline I saw, which was something like Joaquin Phoenix could
Speaker 1: win an Oscar if he cheered up for the press
Speaker 1: and Meanwhile, you've spoken to this before. You've been called
Speaker 1: a difficult director, just this thing where people want you
Speaker 1: to do what you do but only the way they
Speaker 1: want you to do it, or something like when do
Speaker 1: you how do you respond to that kind of a thing.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean I think people these days
Speaker 1: are looking for sund bites, like you know, like you know,
Speaker 1: they it's like an angle. You know, there's so much
Speaker 1: media and social media and quentin and stuff. I mean,
Speaker 1: even I get quoted and you know, I'm seeing something
Speaker 1: I'm not difficult or something like that. You know, I
Speaker 1: was an answer to a question la or you you know,
Speaker 1: you know, and so you kind of stay it out
Speaker 1: for it. So and I don't know always like you know,
Speaker 1: just I think it's just like you just neach st
Speaker 1: up away the billsha, and just like you know, especially
Speaker 1: when you're making films. I mean, like, um, I don't
Speaker 1: think you think about all that stuff. And and I
Speaker 1: think you know, Walking is gonna about the work, you know, um.
Speaker 1: And he's been great with the press. He's been he's
Speaker 1: much press with this, and he's been lovely and he's
Speaker 1: charming and he's funny. That's one of those things like
Speaker 1: maybe there was an episode in the past and this
Speaker 1: just kind of gets situated in people's minds that he
Speaker 1: is a problem with the press or something. I know
Speaker 1: for a fact that's rubbish, you know, because I've just
Speaker 1: seen you know, you just got back from New York,
Speaker 1: and I think he's great. And I think what ease
Speaker 1: we have with him is like when the work aids
Speaker 1: and you know, when you like, for me, it's like
Speaker 1: when you finish the car, like or then you the
Speaker 1: mix and then you your work is done and you
Speaker 1: don't normally watch it a million times. I mean some
Speaker 1: films that I've made that I've never watched again since
Speaker 1: being a film face or something. I think for him,
Speaker 1: it's like and you know, in the particular, and this
Speaker 1: one it was really sad because I think we both
Speaker 1: felt I've never felt so much enough film, like I
Speaker 1: didn't want to finish, you know, or end, or like
Speaker 1: can we take this crew and go make something else,
Speaker 1: like go make that some you know, crazy other thing,
Speaker 1: you know, because we were so on fired. I felt
Speaker 1: that the whole team that it was a sad end
Speaker 1: and you know, and I know we all felt my
Speaker 1: cod like this is instead of that was something you
Speaker 1: feel like, oh my god, I just want to go
Speaker 1: hibernate for like a few months later, you know, you
Speaker 1: know you're so exhausted. Um, but you know he's now
Speaker 1: I need the the you know, we loved being in
Speaker 1: set together, you know. I mean it wasn't like setting
Speaker 1: like waiting around and he doesn't like that side of
Speaker 1: things or just sort the pomp and circumstances and drivers
Speaker 1: and all that. You know, he just went, you know,
Speaker 1: he's just send it for the work. And I really
Speaker 1: respect that. I think that's been amazing. It's like, um,
Speaker 1: and I think he's really you know, I think at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, you know, I mean it's
Speaker 1: like one of the best, if not the best actors
Speaker 1: we have, and so cherish him a bit more tame thing.
Speaker 1: You know. I just think he just doesn't suffer phils lively,
Speaker 1: you know, which I appreciate it. I tend to get
Speaker 1: along with those sorts. Well, everyone should see this movie.
Speaker 1: It's called You Were Never Really Here, and it's out now,
Speaker 1: so you can go check it out. Lynn Ramsey, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for coming on my show. Really, thanks
Speaker 1: very much for have you been? That was really that
Speaker 1: was great. Thank you n