WEBVTT - Judging Sam: Sam Bankman-Fried Takes The Stand 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:15.916 Push Kim. 0:00:20.796 --> 0:00:24.156 Welcome to Judging Sam, our podcast about the trial of 0:00:24.196 --> 0:00:27.356 Sam Bankman Freed. We were in the courtroom today October 0:00:27.396 --> 0:00:30.756 the twenty seventh. It was me, Michael Lewis, one of 0:00:30.796 --> 0:00:33.516 your hosts, and Lydia Jean Kott, who's actually kind of 0:00:33.556 --> 0:00:35.716 running the show, and we've just come out. 0:00:35.876 --> 0:00:36.996 So this is a hot take. 0:00:37.156 --> 0:00:38.636 Like, I haven't had a whole lot of time to 0:00:38.716 --> 0:00:42.676 process what happened, but I had random sort of reactions 0:00:42.676 --> 0:00:44.756 to things, and I've tried to kind of order them 0:00:44.756 --> 0:00:47.796 in my head a bit. So l J, here's here's 0:00:47.796 --> 0:00:49.556 the first question I want to ask, if you were 0:00:49.596 --> 0:00:54.836 just to explain to like your mother, the significance of today, 0:00:55.716 --> 0:00:56.876 how would you sort of frame. 0:00:56.676 --> 0:00:59.716 It for So, today it was the first day that 0:00:59.796 --> 0:01:02.596 Sam Bankmin Freed was on the stand that the jury 0:01:02.676 --> 0:01:07.996 was present for, and his defense lawyers to direct examination 0:01:08.116 --> 0:01:10.836 with him, which means that they were able to draw 0:01:10.876 --> 0:01:13.476 out of him his side of the story, and. 0:01:13.436 --> 0:01:14.636 They drew out of the side of the story in 0:01:14.676 --> 0:01:17.516 a way that sort of followed mostly the plot of my. 0:01:17.516 --> 0:01:18.716 Book about it. 0:01:18.996 --> 0:01:22.476 They walked him through his life and took us all 0:01:22.516 --> 0:01:26.276 the way through to kind of almost the crisis. We 0:01:26.356 --> 0:01:28.636 didn't quite get to the crisis. We got to the 0:01:29.036 --> 0:01:32.316 kind of latest, kind of September. 0:01:31.716 --> 0:01:33.716 Of last year exactly. 0:01:33.756 --> 0:01:35.716 And the way they set everything up at the beginning 0:01:36.116 --> 0:01:39.156 is they asked him, did you defraud anyone? Did you 0:01:39.196 --> 0:01:42.156 take anyone's money? And he said no, but he did 0:01:42.156 --> 0:01:45.476 say that he made mistakes, small and large mistakes. And 0:01:45.516 --> 0:01:48.556 then I feel like we got the story of how 0:01:48.556 --> 0:01:50.956 these mistakes happened and what they were, or the beginning 0:01:51.036 --> 0:01:51.356 of it. 0:01:52.116 --> 0:01:53.956 A lot of it reads like the cliff notes to 0:01:54.036 --> 0:01:56.196 Going Intoite. I mean really, it's just like I feel 0:01:56.196 --> 0:01:58.996 like they're like bouncing along through the book but just 0:01:59.076 --> 0:02:02.516 grabbing like the barest of the details until they get 0:02:02.556 --> 0:02:04.316 to the collapse. 0:02:04.556 --> 0:02:06.156 Yeah, that's much more boring. 0:02:07.076 --> 0:02:09.076 Oh well, you know, it's funny you say that, because 0:02:09.796 --> 0:02:12.636 it is. There is this tedium, But it's funny. Everybody 0:02:12.636 --> 0:02:14.956 turns up early in the morning to Gideon, right like 0:02:14.956 --> 0:02:16.636 you O. These reports leaning up at two in the 0:02:16.676 --> 0:02:18.476 morning and three in the morning, so they're full of 0:02:18.556 --> 0:02:20.596 energy and they're full of anticipation that the day is 0:02:20.636 --> 0:02:22.716 going to be so exciting. And then by about ten 0:02:22.716 --> 0:02:24.796 o'clock everybody's yawning and I bet. 0:02:24.836 --> 0:02:25.956 What happens is they walk out of. 0:02:25.956 --> 0:02:29.036 The courthouse exhausted, sort of thinking most of that day 0:02:29.116 --> 0:02:31.636 was boring. But then people tell them, Wow, your tweet 0:02:31.716 --> 0:02:33.996 was good or your story was good because they made 0:02:34.036 --> 0:02:37.436 it more interesting than it was, and you know, rinse 0:02:37.476 --> 0:02:38.596 and repeat every day. 0:02:38.996 --> 0:02:39.236 Yeah. 0:02:39.356 --> 0:02:41.276 I don't think that's fair though, because there are real 0:02:41.356 --> 0:02:42.356 moments of excitement. 0:02:43.036 --> 0:02:45.996 True, so true, And it's easier for you to see 0:02:45.996 --> 0:02:49.356 that today you were in the overflow room for all 0:02:49.396 --> 0:02:51.636 of it. I was in the overflow room at the beginning, 0:02:51.636 --> 0:02:54.676 and then after lunch I went into the main courtroom. 0:02:55.116 --> 0:02:58.836 And it's funny. It's like you have a laugh track 0:02:58.836 --> 0:03:03.036 and I don't. So I have to supply my own 0:03:03.076 --> 0:03:06.436 emotional content because nobody's allowed to say anything in the courtroom. 0:03:06.516 --> 0:03:08.716 You can't even allowed to whisper to the person next 0:03:08.716 --> 0:03:12.716 to you, and they're pretty harsh about it. But you 0:03:12.756 --> 0:03:14.196 get to sit in a room with people who are 0:03:14.236 --> 0:03:16.676 laughing and slapping their thighs and doing whatever they. 0:03:16.516 --> 0:03:17.156 Really want to do. 0:03:17.516 --> 0:03:19.076 I just wanted to know what it was like to 0:03:19.116 --> 0:03:22.156 be in the courtroom and watching Sam Bnkman free testify. 0:03:22.196 --> 0:03:23.516 It where his parents looking at. 0:03:23.516 --> 0:03:28.076 Him, His mother takes looks down and takes notes and 0:03:28.116 --> 0:03:30.356 looks at him and nods, and she seems she looks, 0:03:30.636 --> 0:03:33.316 you know, very grim the whole time. 0:03:33.636 --> 0:03:38.276 And she looks frazzled, like she's just stressed beyond belief. 0:03:38.316 --> 0:03:38.476 You know. 0:03:38.476 --> 0:03:41.036 It's just not fair what's going on inside the central 0:03:41.036 --> 0:03:44.116 nervous system there. And the dad looks like he is 0:03:44.956 --> 0:03:48.116 paying almost as much attention to the mom as he 0:03:48.276 --> 0:03:51.396 is to Sam. That might be wrong, but that's what 0:03:51.436 --> 0:03:56.076 it looks like to me. And Sam seems completely himself Sam. 0:03:56.276 --> 0:03:56.836 The whole time. 0:03:56.876 --> 0:03:58.636 I've thought this, that Sam is the only one who 0:03:58.676 --> 0:04:03.196 seems like calm about everything. Aside from him seeming like himself. 0:04:03.956 --> 0:04:06.516 I'm struck by how he doesn't look like himself. He 0:04:06.636 --> 0:04:08.636 just looks like, you know, with the short hair and 0:04:08.676 --> 0:04:12.316 having dry some weight and dressed up like mortician. 0:04:12.436 --> 0:04:15.076 And is a jury paying attention very much. 0:04:15.516 --> 0:04:19.356 I couldn't only see their profiles, but the former Solomon 0:04:19.396 --> 0:04:21.276 Brothers guy is paying very close attention. 0:04:21.876 --> 0:04:23.116 The ones I could really. 0:04:22.916 --> 0:04:26.996 See seem very alert, like really watching him. And I 0:04:26.996 --> 0:04:28.476 guess if I was on the jury and I'd been 0:04:28.476 --> 0:04:30.436 hearing about this guy for the past month, I'd be 0:04:30.436 --> 0:04:31.276 paying attention too. 0:04:31.476 --> 0:04:32.836 It's the first time to really hear him. 0:04:33.236 --> 0:04:35.276 Yeah, and that was who heard him for the first 0:04:35.276 --> 0:04:37.276 time today because the jury wasn't there yesterday. 0:04:37.636 --> 0:04:40.316 I thought it was interesting watching them when they file 0:04:40.356 --> 0:04:42.356 in and file out, because the camera you can see 0:04:42.356 --> 0:04:45.316 his face. They all really avoid looking in his direction. 0:04:45.436 --> 0:04:47.236 It seems like they all are looking down when they 0:04:47.236 --> 0:04:47.996 walk past him. 0:04:48.436 --> 0:04:49.476 They don't look at anybody. 0:04:50.556 --> 0:04:52.676 They make a point of not looking at anybody, so 0:04:52.716 --> 0:04:57.756 they're not I've tried to make eye contact, they. 0:04:57.636 --> 0:04:58.156 Won't do it. 0:04:58.156 --> 0:05:01.516 They've been well trained to prevent any kind of information 0:05:01.636 --> 0:05:03.716 coming into them that they're not that the judge does 0:05:03.756 --> 0:05:04.636 not approve of. 0:05:04.796 --> 0:05:07.236 I'm curious what the judge was like in the courtroom 0:05:07.356 --> 0:05:13.116 because in our previous episode, Rebecca Marmolstein, the former SDNY prosecutor, 0:05:13.636 --> 0:05:17.436 said that Sam testifying might really make the judge annoyed. 0:05:18.356 --> 0:05:18.876 It's funny. 0:05:18.876 --> 0:05:21.836 It's a little hard to read the judge's true feelings, 0:05:21.836 --> 0:05:25.436 which I think is intentional probably, But the first thing 0:05:25.476 --> 0:05:30.436 that comes off the judge thick as smoke, is how much. 0:05:30.236 --> 0:05:31.836 He loves being a judge. 0:05:31.996 --> 0:05:34.036 You know, he's just like loving being a judge, and 0:05:34.076 --> 0:05:36.036 he's like playing a judge at the same time, he 0:05:36.156 --> 0:05:39.076 is a judge and he and he likes making people laugh. 0:05:39.436 --> 0:05:41.636 He likes looking over it. If you were wearing spectacles, 0:05:41.676 --> 0:05:44.276 he'd be looking over his spectacles at Sam with concern, 0:05:44.556 --> 0:05:47.836 you know, like this. The thing, whatever he's looking for, 0:05:48.556 --> 0:05:51.836 is the judge to be angry at Sam. And everybody's 0:05:51.836 --> 0:05:54.596 looking for this, because that's become the general thought has 0:05:54.596 --> 0:05:56.996 been the judge hates Sam. The judge has been irritated 0:05:56.996 --> 0:05:58.756 with Sam from the very beginning when he was under 0:05:58.796 --> 0:06:01.116 house arrests. So therefore the judge must be getting even 0:06:01.156 --> 0:06:03.716 more worked up that Sam has had the goal to 0:06:03.796 --> 0:06:07.556 get up on the stand and testify. I think if 0:06:07.596 --> 0:06:08.916 I were just if I didn't know any of the 0:06:09.356 --> 0:06:11.796 story and I didn't know what I was expected to see, 0:06:11.836 --> 0:06:15.196 and I was just looking at this relationship fresh, I 0:06:15.236 --> 0:06:19.636 think the judge enjoys Sam, and the facial expressions are 0:06:19.676 --> 0:06:24.236 not hostile, the mannerisms are not hostile. I wouldn't be 0:06:24.236 --> 0:06:27.996 shocked if the judge is curious about Sam, like it 0:06:28.036 --> 0:06:32.236 hasn't completely made up his mind about Sam. 0:06:32.316 --> 0:06:33.036 That's interesting. 0:06:34.036 --> 0:06:43.516 We'll be right back, welcome back. 0:06:45.076 --> 0:06:49.196 So I'm curious how you felt or what if any 0:06:49.236 --> 0:06:53.596 differences you felt there were between today and yesterday, because 0:06:54.116 --> 0:06:56.276 in some ways it was a continuation of yesterday. 0:06:56.996 --> 0:07:00.076 Yesterday was kind of like a dress rehearsal because Sam 0:07:00.116 --> 0:07:03.236 testified without the jury present in order for the judge 0:07:03.236 --> 0:07:06.156 to decide whether or not to allow certain bits of testimony. 0:07:06.676 --> 0:07:10.156 Today we only had direct and yesterday did really well 0:07:10.196 --> 0:07:13.236 on direct he seemed very much himself and very reasonable, 0:07:13.756 --> 0:07:16.716 And this time today on direct I would say he 0:07:16.756 --> 0:07:19.716 did very well again and seemed very much himself un reasonable. 0:07:20.036 --> 0:07:22.196 I felt like his lawyers were drawing out things that 0:07:22.276 --> 0:07:25.876 did that really made me think differently about the picture 0:07:25.916 --> 0:07:28.916 that the prosecution had been painting. And they showed, for instance, 0:07:28.956 --> 0:07:31.596 that picture of Sam makman Freed holding a deck of 0:07:31.636 --> 0:07:34.836 cards and they said do you even play cards? And 0:07:34.916 --> 0:07:37.716 Sam said no, I'm just really fidgety, and they said 0:07:37.716 --> 0:07:39.556 have you ever even been to a casino? And they 0:07:39.556 --> 0:07:41.956 stopped that on direct. But I felt like that picture, 0:07:41.956 --> 0:07:44.876 in that back and forth, really showed how the prosecution 0:07:44.996 --> 0:07:47.836 had been showing us one version of Sam, which is 0:07:47.876 --> 0:07:52.516 that he's this villainous character with a deck of cards plotting, 0:07:53.036 --> 0:07:55.316 and then there was the real Sam on the stand, 0:07:55.516 --> 0:07:58.596 who's this reasonable sounding guy who's. 0:07:58.476 --> 0:08:00.076 Very good at explaining things. 0:07:59.796 --> 0:08:02.036 And is a little fidgety and is a bit nerdy, 0:08:02.636 --> 0:08:06.476 and didn't really seem to have any sort of undercovered 0:08:06.556 --> 0:08:09.676 nefarious plot, and in fact talks so much and it's 0:08:09.676 --> 0:08:12.156 trying to explain things so much that he's constantly getting 0:08:12.196 --> 0:08:12.796 in trouble with it. 0:08:12.796 --> 0:08:14.076 From the judge. 0:08:14.116 --> 0:08:16.436 Today, he didn't get in as much trouble as he 0:08:16.556 --> 0:08:17.796 got yesterday. 0:08:17.356 --> 0:08:21.156 Though not as nothing, but still a little bit more 0:08:21.196 --> 0:08:22.316 than other witnesses. 0:08:23.116 --> 0:08:23.836 That's true. 0:08:24.036 --> 0:08:26.836 The bigger point is the judge is sitting there listening 0:08:26.996 --> 0:08:29.316 to see if Sam is actually answering. 0:08:28.956 --> 0:08:31.276 The question because he knows he doesn't do that yet. 0:08:31.316 --> 0:08:33.636 Or generating a word salad for us all to consume. 0:08:34.116 --> 0:08:36.756 And I was thinking about this again to day. Why 0:08:36.916 --> 0:08:41.076 Sam's word salads are so fun, like why he gets 0:08:41.116 --> 0:08:43.356 away with it Like most people when they don't answer 0:08:43.396 --> 0:08:46.676 a question, your alarm bells go off pretty quickly, like 0:08:46.716 --> 0:08:50.476 that you just redirected in some way. He's really really 0:08:50.556 --> 0:08:53.916 good at starting the answer in a place where you think, oh, 0:08:53.956 --> 0:08:57.036 that's where the beginning of the answer belongs, and then 0:08:57.076 --> 0:09:00.636 making a little jump into things are actually interesting to 0:09:00.636 --> 0:09:03.916 know about, so you're not bored, You're actually interested in 0:09:03.916 --> 0:09:04.396 what he's saying. 0:09:04.476 --> 0:09:06.316 You're saying like there's substance to it. He's not just 0:09:06.316 --> 0:09:09.076 saying nothing. He's saying something that's substantive and makes you 0:09:09.196 --> 0:09:12.236 think it's just not what you asked. But then you're 0:09:12.276 --> 0:09:13.996 thinking and you forget what you asked. 0:09:14.356 --> 0:09:19.196 That's exactly what happens. It's engaging. It's like, maybe it's 0:09:19.276 --> 0:09:22.436 even better than the answer to the question. 0:09:22.836 --> 0:09:24.676 Right, Maybe it's what you should. 0:09:24.396 --> 0:09:28.236 Have as you should have asked. That's exactly right. 0:09:28.476 --> 0:09:30.156 And then to me, it kind of felt like that 0:09:30.196 --> 0:09:33.516 movie Raschamon, because it was three scenes that the prosecutors 0:09:33.516 --> 0:09:36.276 had painted on direct right with Caroline Allison in the 0:09:36.276 --> 0:09:39.276 balance sheets, and they showed the seven balance sheets that 0:09:39.316 --> 0:09:42.716 Caroline had apparently made for him that then he looked at, 0:09:43.556 --> 0:09:46.276 and then he, according to Caroline, chose the one that 0:09:46.316 --> 0:09:49.196 looked best and was misleading to send to investors. But 0:09:49.316 --> 0:09:52.156 according to Sam akmun Freed, it kind of sounded like 0:09:52.196 --> 0:09:55.116 he just looked at the first one that was highlighted, 0:09:55.196 --> 0:09:57.996 basically and said this slicks fy, and send this on. 0:09:59.276 --> 0:10:01.076 He made it seem like he didn't pay a whole 0:10:01.076 --> 0:10:02.156 lot of attention to it. 0:10:02.596 --> 0:10:03.036 Exactly. 0:10:04.356 --> 0:10:06.196 He didn't actually say I didn't look at all, so 0:10:06.516 --> 0:10:06.996 he didn't. 0:10:07.676 --> 0:10:09.796 I think the lawyer said, do you remember talking about 0:10:09.796 --> 0:10:11.556 each of these tabs and he said no. 0:10:12.876 --> 0:10:14.436 Right, then we have the. 0:10:14.436 --> 0:10:18.436 Other story was the bulletproof conversation between him and Adam 0:10:18.476 --> 0:10:20.356 you DiDia that happened on the. 0:10:20.196 --> 0:10:23.796 Paddle ball court. Is it is it paddle on. 0:10:23.756 --> 0:10:27.476 The paddle tennis court on this paddle tennis court, which 0:10:27.476 --> 0:10:29.676 sounds like a rich person sport that I don't know about. 0:10:30.436 --> 0:10:33.596 And they have this conversation that sounds kind of nefarious 0:10:33.636 --> 0:10:36.076 where Adam tells him about how there's these billions of 0:10:36.156 --> 0:10:41.116 dollars missing that Alameda took from FTX and he asks 0:10:41.276 --> 0:10:44.516 Sam mcmunfreed to respond to that, and Sam Bankman Freed says, 0:10:44.956 --> 0:10:47.316 we used to be bulletproof, but we're not anymore. And 0:10:47.396 --> 0:10:50.316 it sounds like just this very damning story. 0:10:50.796 --> 0:10:57.636 Yeah, that conversation occurred supposedly in June. I think I 0:10:57.716 --> 0:11:00.396 sat down and had a very long interview with Adam 0:11:00.436 --> 0:11:05.276 yu DiDia July August, and if Adam you DiDio was 0:11:05.316 --> 0:11:10.236 so disturbed in June by this encounter on the paddle 0:11:10.316 --> 0:11:12.516 town's court and thinks these in the middle of a fraud. 0:11:12.956 --> 0:11:14.556 The last thing I'm going to do is sit down 0:11:14.556 --> 0:11:16.756 with me and have this kind of conversation I would 0:11:16.796 --> 0:11:19.156 have fought before. We get to a couple of substantive 0:11:19.236 --> 0:11:22.996 things that sort of struck me. And on a related note, 0:11:23.236 --> 0:11:26.076 I am still again now that I'm watching this process 0:11:26.116 --> 0:11:29.556 up close, the structure of our system of justice. They're 0:11:29.596 --> 0:11:33.316 just the basic some of the basics assumptions about it 0:11:33.356 --> 0:11:34.636 is just to me. 0:11:36.276 --> 0:11:36.916 Bizarre. 0:11:37.516 --> 0:11:40.716 In addition to plea agreements, we haven't gotten an answer 0:11:40.836 --> 0:11:44.836 yet from I've asked now several lawyers, like serious lawyers, 0:11:44.956 --> 0:11:47.476 in the last forty eight hours, what's the history of 0:11:47.476 --> 0:11:48.316 the Pleague agreement? 0:11:48.396 --> 0:11:49.236 Like why do we have it? 0:11:49.276 --> 0:11:52.276 The englishing around London, people were saying that I can't 0:11:52.316 --> 0:11:54.556 believe these people are allowed to do this. Nobody's really 0:11:54.556 --> 0:11:56.516 had an answer. It's just woven into the fabric of 0:11:56.556 --> 0:11:59.676 our legal culture. And I'm just looking at it like 0:12:00.396 --> 0:12:02.876 as for the first time and just kind of shocked 0:12:02.876 --> 0:12:05.756 by it and interested by it. Last point, because I 0:12:05.756 --> 0:12:07.916 don't want to be a downer about our legal system. 0:12:08.276 --> 0:12:12.636 This court house is so beautifully run. It's just like 0:12:12.716 --> 0:12:15.716 amazingly run, and it's the federal government. I would tip 0:12:15.756 --> 0:12:19.196 the cat to whoever manages those courthouses down in the 0:12:19.196 --> 0:12:22.036 southern Manhattan. They're so awful and boring to look out 0:12:22.076 --> 0:12:25.596 from the outside. It's like you never there's nothing about 0:12:25.596 --> 0:12:29.716 them that beckons you inside. But once you're inside, you're 0:12:29.756 --> 0:12:32.356 treated so well by like the people who frisk you 0:12:32.516 --> 0:12:35.196 to go in. The guy I even got the guy's name, 0:12:35.316 --> 0:12:37.716 David Carrera, who runs the restaurant. 0:12:38.316 --> 0:12:40.396 It's like, why is the food so good here? Doesn't 0:12:40.436 --> 0:12:41.956 have to be good here? And they're so nice. 0:12:41.996 --> 0:12:44.236 They kind of make a point of like coming over 0:12:44.276 --> 0:12:46.796 and saying hi, and how you doing that. I was 0:12:46.876 --> 0:12:50.156 asking the woman at the cash register, like who runs 0:12:50.156 --> 0:12:53.436 this place? She says, my dad, you know, And it's 0:12:53.476 --> 0:12:55.676 like it's so cute. The people that seem to be 0:12:55.716 --> 0:12:57.236 really energized by their jobs. 0:12:57.356 --> 0:12:59.396 Yeah, I think that's true because they, you know, there's 0:12:59.396 --> 0:13:03.756 such important cases there. And also marshalls are retired police 0:13:03.796 --> 0:13:06.436 officers a lot of time who now have a much 0:13:06.436 --> 0:13:09.996 easier job. I think that's and get paid a fair amount. 0:13:10.556 --> 0:13:13.316 You've been in the main courtroom some right, I mean, 0:13:13.396 --> 0:13:16.276 like the judge has this very weird tapestry. 0:13:15.796 --> 0:13:18.756 Behind Oh yeah, I've been wondering about that tapestry. It's 0:13:18.796 --> 0:13:21.756 kind of like blue and purplish, and it kind of 0:13:21.796 --> 0:13:24.836 seemed like it seems like a bad idea. It seems 0:13:24.836 --> 0:13:27.796 like someone was like, I'll make something for the courtroom, 0:13:27.876 --> 0:13:30.516 and this person was like, Okay, make it, and then 0:13:30.556 --> 0:13:32.596 they had to put it up. But it doesn't really 0:13:32.636 --> 0:13:34.396 fit in with what the rest of the courtroom looks 0:13:34.396 --> 0:13:34.796 like at all. 0:13:35.556 --> 0:13:38.996 So I heard tell that it's the creation of the 0:13:39.036 --> 0:13:41.636 wife of the former judge who had that corporate It 0:13:41.676 --> 0:13:45.556 has that feeling, it feel, it has the feeling of 0:13:45.596 --> 0:13:47.756 the work of art someone gave you that they created 0:13:47.836 --> 0:13:49.396 and they gave it to you as a Christmas present, 0:13:49.436 --> 0:13:51.116 and you're stuck having to put it up on your 0:13:51.156 --> 0:13:53.476 wall because they go visit every four months and if 0:13:53.516 --> 0:13:55.716 it's not on your wall, you're in I found out 0:13:55.756 --> 0:13:57.956 about it today. I was asking one of the marshals. 0:13:58.316 --> 0:14:01.116 It covers a bulletproof. 0:14:00.556 --> 0:14:02.516 Pane of glass that's behind the judge, because that's a 0:14:02.516 --> 0:14:05.876 little unsightly. And the reason there's a bulletproof pane of 0:14:05.876 --> 0:14:09.516 glass behind the judge is that they fortified that room 0:14:10.116 --> 0:14:12.116 more than any of the other courtrooms in the building 0:14:12.516 --> 0:14:15.836 against attack. It's bomb proof. All the window. 0:14:15.596 --> 0:14:17.876 Is bulletproof, and it was because it. 0:14:17.796 --> 0:14:21.916 Was designed for whatever the cases were that came out 0:14:21.916 --> 0:14:26.916 of the World Trade Center bombings. And it's actually where 0:14:26.956 --> 0:14:28.876 they it's the very room where they had where Trump 0:14:29.116 --> 0:14:33.396 and the e Gen Carroll trial was. And actually, lastly, 0:14:33.556 --> 0:14:35.116 one of the things the interesting things they told me 0:14:35.396 --> 0:14:37.916 was the guy who worked there for a long time 0:14:37.956 --> 0:14:41.036 said he's never seen such public interest in the trial. 0:14:41.236 --> 0:14:42.836 So here's a question for you. 0:14:43.156 --> 0:14:45.836 Because I just My answer is, I just spent two 0:14:45.876 --> 0:14:46.956 years writing a book about it. 0:14:46.996 --> 0:14:48.996 But why do you think. 0:14:50.636 --> 0:14:53.356 So many people are so interested in Sam Bangman free. 0:14:53.676 --> 0:14:56.956 He hasn't come and gone like most cultural phenomenon. He's 0:14:56.956 --> 0:14:59.596 been in the news for a long time that's been 0:14:59.636 --> 0:15:02.236 surprisingly interested in it. I mean, look, there are hundreds 0:15:02.236 --> 0:15:04.876 some journalists floating around that place. What do you think 0:15:04.916 --> 0:15:05.756 is going on there? 0:15:06.116 --> 0:15:08.196 I think there's so many layers of the story that 0:15:08.236 --> 0:15:08.916 are fascinating. 0:15:08.956 --> 0:15:09.276 Right. 0:15:09.516 --> 0:15:11.916 There's the one layer of Sam said he wanted to 0:15:11.956 --> 0:15:14.396 make the world a better place and then he failed 0:15:14.396 --> 0:15:17.676 so spectacularly. It's much more interesting than someone who is 0:15:17.716 --> 0:15:21.116 just bad from the beginning. I think the second layer 0:15:21.436 --> 0:15:23.996 is there's so much money. When there's a lot of money, 0:15:23.996 --> 0:15:24.636 that's interesting. 0:15:25.276 --> 0:15:25.556 Yeah. 0:15:25.596 --> 0:15:28.796 I think another layer is it's his closest friends and 0:15:28.796 --> 0:15:33.236 his ex girlfriend. It's so interesting to watch people's relationships 0:15:33.276 --> 0:15:36.356 play out also, and to watch a play out kind 0:15:36.356 --> 0:15:38.956 of on a public stage. And to me, for instance, 0:15:38.996 --> 0:15:41.756 even the balance sheet that had kind of couple's therapy 0:15:41.876 --> 0:15:43.796 energy to me, like it felt to me reminded me 0:15:43.796 --> 0:15:47.076 of purple therapy, where one person sees something one way 0:15:47.156 --> 0:15:49.676 and then the other person sees something completely differently and 0:15:49.716 --> 0:15:53.636 there are some overlapping facts. But the take at the 0:15:53.676 --> 0:15:55.756 same time I have felt, you know, it's like, were 0:15:55.796 --> 0:15:57.676 you guys both there, were you talking to each other? 0:15:57.956 --> 0:15:59.756 How is there this huge misunderstanding? 0:16:00.836 --> 0:16:02.836 Well, they were at war with each other. She booted 0:16:02.876 --> 0:16:04.356 him out of the Orchid penthouse. 0:16:04.436 --> 0:16:04.676 Yeah. 0:16:04.676 --> 0:16:08.316 The third big moment that was recast was Nashad's conversation 0:16:08.396 --> 0:16:12.396 with sam Akmon Freed on the balcony, which was you know, 0:16:12.476 --> 0:16:14.436 dramatic woman in the trial with the picture of the 0:16:14.476 --> 0:16:17.716 balcony and then the way sam Mgmunfried told the stories. 0:16:18.236 --> 0:16:21.556 That conversation was hardly even really about the missing funds 0:16:21.556 --> 0:16:24.316 at all. It was really just a conversation about marketing, 0:16:24.556 --> 0:16:28.236 and Nishad was a little bit worried about Alameda's liabilities, 0:16:28.276 --> 0:16:31.396 but was worried also that ftexas spending too much money 0:16:31.396 --> 0:16:34.716 in marketing, and Sam said, maybe you have a point. 0:16:34.796 --> 0:16:36.836 Why don't you research the marketing and get back to 0:16:36.876 --> 0:16:37.476 me about it. 0:16:38.116 --> 0:16:41.156 So you know, only two people know the truth of this. 0:16:41.396 --> 0:16:45.076 But one thing that is true is that the spring 0:16:45.116 --> 0:16:49.996 of twenty twenty two, when Ryan Salem moves basically moves 0:16:49.996 --> 0:16:53.356 out of the company, he becomes much less interested in 0:16:53.836 --> 0:17:00.076 being involved, and Nishad and Nishad's girlfriend basically took over 0:17:00.116 --> 0:17:03.156 the role that Ryan had and Ryan had been really 0:17:03.876 --> 0:17:06.876 the department is spending money. I mean, it was unbelievable 0:17:06.916 --> 0:17:11.956 how Ryan spent money. And it drove Nashad crazy. Uh 0:17:11.996 --> 0:17:15.916 and he was even well before there were obvious problems. 0:17:16.476 --> 0:17:19.196 Nishad was like, we got to stop this. This is 0:17:19.236 --> 0:17:22.676 just crazy. Because Nishad was thinking like effective altruism, these 0:17:22.716 --> 0:17:26.236 dollars could be going to this other thing. And I 0:17:26.236 --> 0:17:28.836 think Sam's mind was that these are all rounding eras. 0:17:28.876 --> 0:17:32.036 We're aiming for a trillion. Anything that slows us down 0:17:32.436 --> 0:17:36.276 is dumb. And and if we buy these fancy apartments 0:17:36.316 --> 0:17:38.076 and enables us to get smarter people to come move 0:17:38.116 --> 0:17:40.956 to the Bahamas and work for us, and the apartments 0:17:40.996 --> 0:17:41.956 will hold their value. 0:17:42.116 --> 0:17:43.396 Like it's this is no big deal. 0:17:44.236 --> 0:17:48.476 You're looking at two people having very radically different accounts of. 0:17:48.596 --> 0:17:52.076 And three people too. It's like three different stories. 0:17:52.676 --> 0:17:52.916 Yep. 0:17:53.516 --> 0:17:58.636 Two random thoughts, like not ordered thoughts. One was that 0:17:59.036 --> 0:18:04.556 it's kind of interesting that Sam's effective altruist passion had 0:18:04.596 --> 0:18:09.076 him focused on pandemic prevention. At least three of the 0:18:09.516 --> 0:18:12.396 members of the jury are wearing masks, so we have 0:18:13.116 --> 0:18:18.796 a germaphobic jury and by this and Sam's, Sam's has 0:18:18.836 --> 0:18:22.876 an interest in pandemic prevention, and I just wonder that 0:18:22.996 --> 0:18:25.596 was the first thought was like, hmm, I wonder if 0:18:25.596 --> 0:18:27.996 they're the germophobes, you're going to form a little you 0:18:28.036 --> 0:18:29.276 know what, let that guy loose. 0:18:30.116 --> 0:18:32.876 If the defense lawyers were thinking about that when they 0:18:32.876 --> 0:18:36.436 were choosing who they wanted on the jury, that's a. 0:18:37.276 --> 0:18:40.356 Who knows right, I'll argue at some point we stick 0:18:40.356 --> 0:18:43.596 a pin in that and we'll last We'll be back 0:18:43.596 --> 0:18:52.676 in a minute with one last thing, welcome back. I 0:18:52.756 --> 0:18:56.756 did the unseemly thing of running out of the courtroom 0:18:57.316 --> 0:18:59.676 moments before they said we were done for the day, 0:18:59.716 --> 0:19:01.876 because I smelled it and I wanted to beat everybody 0:19:01.876 --> 0:19:04.996 of the elevators and get my phone first, so I missed, like, 0:19:05.276 --> 0:19:08.076 what's coming next? That section that they do at the 0:19:08.156 --> 0:19:10.516 end of the day, what's coming next? What can we 0:19:10.556 --> 0:19:11.436 expect next week? 0:19:11.516 --> 0:19:14.076 Okay, direct, we'll finish, and then there's going to be 0:19:14.196 --> 0:19:18.196 cross examination, which is what all the reporters are excited about, 0:19:18.236 --> 0:19:21.236 because that's going to be the more pugnacious part of 0:19:21.276 --> 0:19:26.956 Sam's testimony, and the prosecutors said that the judge should 0:19:26.996 --> 0:19:30.036