WEBVTT - Tom Freston 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.680 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:17.079 My guest today is Tom Freston, who has a new autobiography, 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:22.880 Unplugged Adventures from MTV to Tim Buck to Tom. Why 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:23.960 this book? Why Now? 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:30.600 Well, we had this thing called the pandemic a while back, 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:33.920 and I had some time on my hands, and I 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:37.640 thought maybe it was time to try and I like writing, 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:39.479 trying to link together some of the things in my 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:41.320 life and see what kind of sense it might make. 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:45.440 So I started churning it out, and next thing, you know, 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:48.960 I thought, I thought, rather than do a business book, 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:53.040 which everybody's doing, I'd do something more along the line 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:55.280 of an adventure story and try and cast it as that. 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:58.680 And I try and put in, you know, a series 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:01.720 of favorite stories, whether they be physical adventures or adventures 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:04.200 like in the workplace, and kind of go from there, 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:06.800 and also try and give it a light, kind of 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:10.600 humorous tone, so it wasn't too serious and it was 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:12.399 fun fun to do. 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:16.840 Okay, obviously you're well known for your tenure at MTV. 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:20.200 How did you decide how much MTV to include and 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:22.080 not include? 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:26.560 Well, I didn't want to go into every little detail. 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:28.240 A lot of it's all been There's been a bunch 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:32.560 of books out on MTV documentaries. I think people kind 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:35.119 of know the story. I was always more and more 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:38.039 interested in my sort of my first chapter in life, 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:40.520 which was, you know, the years I spent in Afghanistan 0:01:40.600 --> 0:01:45.399 in India, which sort of set the template for me. 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.360 They were like my most adventurous years I was younger, 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:51.000 but also those are the years where I learned various 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:54.440 traits that would turn out to serve me well as 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:57.600 someone who was running an eccentric media organization that was 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:01.080 unlike most others, which was the MTV network, a MTV nick, E, 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:05.000 VH one, Comedy Central, and I had I actually had 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:09.720 journals Bob from those years when I would I was 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:14.320 either bartending my way around North America or I was 0:02:14.440 --> 0:02:18.200 traveling all over the world by myself mostly, And then 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:22.120 spent eight years running a business that was pretty successful 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:25.720 and then got, you know, got a series of unfortunate 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:29.160 events happened, and I came back to New York, you know, 0:02:29.400 --> 0:02:33.520 bankrupt and broke in. Then I started at MTV and 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:38.120 the MTV story inventsment. I was like every MTV network's 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:41.800 running that for all those years and being there. That 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:44.920 was you know, all the things in my life that 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:48.679 I loved outside of traveling and living abroad was sort 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:50.959 of in one place. So it was in a sense 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:53.839 for me, it was a perfect job. You know, I'm 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:55.920 not saying that no one else couldn't could have done it, 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:59.360 but yeah, I wasn't. I didn't have a career path 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:02.400 of a traditional media executive, let's put it that way. 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:05.840 So what lessons did you learn in your adventures in 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:10.760 the so called rag trade in Asia that translated to 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:12.600 your tenure at MTV. 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:16.680 Well, when I lived there in Asia in the seventies, 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:19.880 it was a very tumultuous time in India. India was really, 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.120 you know, sort of still a brand new nation. It 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:27.960 was bureaucratics. Sixty percent of people were below the poverty line. 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:30.960 Today that number was like two or three percent. So 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:34.320 it was very poor, very ragged, and they were a 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:37.240 socialist government. They didn't allow any imports. There was no 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.600 foreigners really living there. I mean you couldn't go there. 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:43.680 And you know, there was no call centers in Bangalore. 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:49.839 So I learned humility first and foremost. You realize how 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:52.800 small and insignificant you are when you're living in a 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:55.640 place like that that seemed to be just made of chaos, 0:03:56.400 --> 0:04:01.400 and I would find that the determination and you know, 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:03.920 flexibility I would need to wind my way through there 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:10.560 and be successful was very satisfying. So the improvisation and 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:14.560 tolerance of traveling low to the ground, and tolerance of 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:18.440 sort of eccentric individuals and so forth, and believing in 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:21.600 risk taking, we're all. You know, there was this part 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:25.120 of the things that I picked up there. That and 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:30.840 feeling confidence, feeling confidence in an international marketplace, which which 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:36.560 really led me to put the internationalization of MTV networks 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.120 on the front burners. And you know when they when 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:44.039 governments started to finally liberalize their media and allow satellite 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:48.200 and cable to come in the late eighties early nineties, 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:50.640 that was a big, big change. Yeah, you know, like 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:53.280 in the UK, I mean you could never really there 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:56.560 was and there was no radio stations even that played 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:02.440 music in the early days. So we kind of came 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:04.280 up when that was all happening. I said, well, I 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:06.440 want to get first in line for doing that. How 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:08.640 can we make say, let's start with MTV and can 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:11.560 we make it a real international network? Now CNN would 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:13.680 always say they were an international network, but they were 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:16.680 mostly in hotels. We were really in local language in 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:21.000 most places, in people's homes, and we had local versions 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:26.160 and it was greatly satisfying. But to answer your question, 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:29.640 you know, I learned it was the hardest work I 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:34.240 ever did in my life running that business. Existing there 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:40.240 so endurance and fortitude and humility and you know, an 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:43.440 appreciation of creativity and risk taking. We're all things that 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:46.120 came in handy later on in all parts of my life. 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:48.120 It was like a good school. 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.440 Okay, were you always a confident guy or did you 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:53.640 learn to be confident? 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:57.560 I learned to be confident, and you know, I would 0:05:57.600 --> 0:05:59.800 say even today, I still have a bit of that 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:04.320 imposter syndrome that a lot of people have, you know, 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:08.360 which came really evident to me. Like, you know, when 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:11.040 I finally got fired by son to Redstone, I said, 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:13.719 oh man, it's like the mask isn't ripped off. I 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:17.320 had for a second of flash there that you know, 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:20.120 they finally figured out I wasn't the right guy for 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:23.840 the job. I really was not incompetent, but I wasn't 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.960 everything I needed to be. But I dispelled that. But 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:29.960 confidence bills, you know, you start out in school and 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:31.520 you get from one grade to another, you get a 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:35.200 little more confident about your abilities. But my confidence skyrocketed 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:39.360 in my date, in my traveling days because I wasn't 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.240 traveling around going to golf courses. That kind of thing. 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:46.640 Okay, is confidence faked till you make it? How much 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.080 is that apart? Do we say, well, let me get 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:52.920 myself in the situation and figure it out, as opposed saying, oh, 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:54.720 this is my wheelhouse, I can do this. 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:59.600 A combination, but a lot of the former. I think 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:01.080 a lot of the former. You know, you kind of 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:03.719 learn as you go. You build up confidence by doing things, 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:06.359 and you go in and you know, at MTV the 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:08.760 first time you have to interact with like major artists, 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:10.560 and am I really right for this? I mean, then 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:12.600 you find out, you know, you talk to people person 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:15.240 to person, You're like, I can do this too. These 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.160 are like regular people. There's ways to relate to those people, 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:21.080 to all kinds of people. So confidence bills as your 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:22.760 experience kind of magnifies. 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:25.480 So what's the trick to connecting with artists? 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:33.640 Well? I always found trying, don't look nervous, be yourself 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.240 what they really want to hear In many ways is 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.400 a connection to their music and their artistry. And if 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:43.080 you can come off as a genuine not so much 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:46.280 a fan, but an appreciator of what they do, and 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:49.560 be respectful of their time and what they've done, and 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:53.080 talk to them as regular people, it would be like 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:56.280 a conversation with anybody after a while. I mean I 0:07:56.320 --> 0:07:59.680 was never really starstruck, except maybe by a couple of artists. 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:05.560 I mean, you know, it was always I always loved 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:09.480 what artists did, and I realized early on that I wasn't. 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:12.520 You know, I couldn't paint, I couldn't play the guitar. 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:16.120 I couldn't do a lot of artistic endeavors, but I could. 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:18.920 I wanted to work near create. I wanted to work 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.080 with creative people and be close to some kind of 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:26.120 artistic endeavor, and that I would be able to do that. 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:28.480 That that that came to me like when I was 0:08:28.520 --> 0:08:32.079 in school, I felt that would be that would be 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:34.720 the lane I wanted to ultimately be in. That would 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:37.400 be satisfying for me. I couldn't make it, but I 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:38.720 could help other people do it. 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:42.800 What is the trick to talking to business titans who 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:44.280 were sprinkled throughout your book. 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:49.439 Well, you got to show them that you know how 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:53.280 business works. You know how what a P and L is, uh, 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:57.200 what ebata is. What they want to see. For example, 0:08:57.200 --> 0:08:59.760 in a business plan, you can't come off as NAI. 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:03.839 If you can't, you want to come off with some confidence. 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:06.719 You've got to be able to defend numbers and if 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:09.640 you have a great ability to kind of process numbers 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:12.320 in your head about percentages and things like that. That 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:17.080 I found that always works. They want to you know, 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:19.560 in my line of work, it was always I would 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:22.520 always try and impress them first without creative output. I 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:25.040 always found at the beginning of a meeting if I 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.079 was going to see somebody, if I was trying to 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:31.000 help sell something, butether that be one of our networks 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.280 to an outside person and they kind of brought me 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:38.000 in to do it, or even to my own corporate 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:40.800 people that I work with. As you know, a great 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:44.440 it's hard to beat a great videotape, and you know 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:46.880 that people would stand up and salute at at the 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.240 end of it because that says, Okay, I'm really going 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:51.400 to listen carefully now to what this guy is going 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.960 to say, because he obviously they got something going on here. 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.560 And in many cases the videotape was better than in 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:02.240 what we were actually making, you know, because it's easy 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:04.360 to do a three minute piece of something that seems 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:05.040 really you know. 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:10.440 Okay, But that's in the selling process when you're talking 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:13.920 about you in the book, it's about going to Cuba, Okay, 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:16.760 you go with Graydon Carter from Vanity Fair, you go 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:20.640 with less Moon Verters from CBS, you go with Rona 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:24.960 Howard's partner from Imagine. What's the key to connecting with 0:10:25.040 --> 0:10:25.720 those people? 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:29.839 Well, first of all, let me say I wanted to 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:33.080 go to Cuba by myself. I mean it started off. 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.880 I wanted to you know, Cuba was going through this 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:39.680 horrible period when the Soviet when the Berlin Wall came down, 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:42.640 in communism kind of vaporize, except for Castro. He's like 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:45.320 the last communist going just about. There's certainly the last 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.400 one in the Western hemisphere. But the music scene, despite 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:53.079 all the increasing poverty in Cuba was really vibrant, and 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:55.720 they had fantastic music there, and I wanted to go 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:57.200 in there and sort of get in on it and 0:10:57.200 --> 0:11:01.000 make some connections. So I happened to to Brian Grazer 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:03.840 one day, who I hadn't known since the eighties. You know, 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:06.840 he was an early guy who I knew around MTV. 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:09.640 We would promote some of his films. We had a friendship. 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:12.000 I said, Hey, I'm going to Cuba. You know, I 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:14.640 want to check out the music scene there and get 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.040 a sense of it, because I know we can't start 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.080 MTV there. But if we could get some relationships with 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.480 some of these musicians and you know, find out what's 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:25.679 going on it could you know, we have a ravenous 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:28.600 network we could use this stuff. He says, oh, yeah, 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:32.360 I'd like to go, so you know, you know, I said, okay, 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:34.400 you want to go. So then he tells somebody else, 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:36.240 who tells somebody else. Next thing, you know, I got 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:39.040 a whole bolo to moguls. They all want to go 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.440 to Cuba. And I found this guy, this great guy 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.440 lives in La Jonathan Branstein. He was like my man 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:48.840 in Havana. He'd had been there many times, and he 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:52.120 got us the proper visas. Allegedly they were the proper 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:54.120 visas that you would need to go to Cuba. And 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.760 we all went. But I knew all these people, Bob 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:00.720 and as I kind of came up in the business, 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:03.800 you just run into a certain level of people. And 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:06.960 as you know, I knew Graydon from Vanity Fair, I 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:12.840 knew Brad gray tangentially less Moonvez and I worked in 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:17.200 like sister companies who also Jim Wyatt then was running 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:22.280 William Morris, I Ken I'm trying to remember now who 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.240 was house on the trip. But anyway, next thing, I'm 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:29.920 bringing now a group of fussy people to a communist 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:34.960 country I've never been to, and they and they want 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:37.920 a certain level of service which I'm not even sure exists. 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:39.839 So all of a sudden, now I'm like a tour 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:44.240 guide rather than someone who's sort of freelancing down there 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:46.840 trying to you know, meet as many people as I can. 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:49.199 And I'm with a lot of people who kind of 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:50.679 view this as some kind of holiday. 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:51.920 But it was. 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:54.000 It was fun. You know, we all got you know, 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:57.920 you rent the old cars from your youth and drive 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:01.160 around Havana, which is like it was exotic. It was 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:04.400 like I think two thousand and one and uh, you know, 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:08.800 Havana is a beautiful city. And we ended up having 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.760 a series of meetings. It was productive and it didn't 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:15.360 end well. Didn't end well, but we did have dinner. 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:19.040 We had lunch with the Fidel Castro, which was unexpected. 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:22.720 He thought, you know, we're a group of people in 0:13:22.760 --> 0:13:25.320 town he wanted to meet, so he entertained us for 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:27.560 like five and a half hours out of lunch, which 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:31.120 was you know, just one funny story about that. So 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:35.920 we're told by this minder from the Ministry of Culture, 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:39.760 Jorge Gonzalez, who was a cool kind of dude, little 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:43.560 rotn guy. We were around and we met some of 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:46.280 the Cuban All the music seemed to go up through 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:48.520 people in the government, the Ministry of Culture. We had 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:50.959 a meeting there and as we're leaving that want to 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.880 hit Jorge's bosses and says, hey, do you guys want 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:56.720 to meet Fidel. We want to meet the big man, 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.840 you know, the big man. We want to meet Fidel. 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:03.640 He'd like to meet you. Well, yeah, we'd like to 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:07.280 meet Fidel. So they said, well, we got a he's 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:11.360 speaking tomorrow night to a group of school teachers outside 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:13.440 of Havana, and you know it's going to go late, 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:15.160 So would you guys be up to meetingum like one 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:17.920 or two in the morning. Oh yeah, whatever, it's Foridel Castro, 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:21.600 for God's sake. He's a man from history. So it 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:25.920 turns out that he doesn't use a cell phone. All 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:30.880 these cats use burner phones, and what they don't know, 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:33.280 they don't even use burner phones. They use payphones. So 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:35.400 they take us to this kind of club that's sort 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:37.400 of like a brothel. You know. People are dry humping 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:40.600 against the wall. It's the communist upper class. They're letting 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.640 off steam on a Friday. And we're waiting for the 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:46.040 call to come in. And the call comes in to 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.040 a payphone outside. We all go outside and it's like, 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:51.760 he can't meet you tonight, He's got to meet you tomorrow. 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:54.680 Why don't you come for lunch? I said, okay, So 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:56.640 we get ready, we go for lunch. We pull in 0:14:56.800 --> 0:14:59.800 like two when was a fifty seven Cadillac invertible and 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.280 was a fifty four to Ford convertible, like a bunch 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:06.240 of yahoo. Gring goes and there he is on the 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:10.760 palace steps and I'm thinking, Wow, that's Fidel Castro. He's 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:12.680 a man from history. We tried to kill him like 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:14.960 eight or nine times with a CEO. What's he going 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:19.240 to say to us? What's his first words? And he 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:21.960 says he comes out and you look up at him. 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:24.920 He's on top of a flight of stairs and he says, 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:31.640 what do you guys produces the Sopranos? This is like 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:36.040 Cuba is only HBO subscriber. He's really a jump thinking god. 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.480 Gangsters tried to kill him, you know, and we had this, 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:43.440 We hired gangsters to take him out with exploding cigars 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:46.840 and wet suits filled with poison. And now he wants 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:49.000 to know who produced the Sopranos about the gangster so 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:51.880 is Brad Gray? Brad Gray then ran Brillstein Gray, He 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:54.640 said it was me, and so he works his way 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:57.720 forward and Fidel goes, that's my favorite show. That's my 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:02.040 favorite show. That was sort of his icebreaker, and then uh, 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:04.760 you know, we're let into the Palace of Ferns where 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:09.120 he would entertain foreign dignitaries, and we're all doing cocktails 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:13.160 and ganging around and talking about this and that, and 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:16.520 it was just bizarre. And then we would go in 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.760 to sit for this luncheon and I'm sitting at his 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:22.760 right and I always remember we all had place settings, 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:27.600 and his his el Comandante al hefe Fidel Castro was 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:29.760 his place card, which I of course stole when the 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.800 meal was over. But he sat us all down and 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:34.760 gone on and on, and he started, you guys, want 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.480 to drink any wine? You know? He wheels out this 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:41.240 this like all this wine from Chile and Algeria, and 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.040 we start drinking wine. Everybody's getting a little buzz. And 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:46.240 he just went on and on and on. He would 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.120 have this translator. He spoke perfect English, but he had 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:51.320 this translator who was always like a half a sentence 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:54.560 behind him. And then this guy could talk. So if 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:56.040 we were there for five and a half hours, he 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:59.480 talked for five of it. And at one point I 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:01.360 would a couple of points. I got up and I said, 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:04.080 oh that this is what am I doing here? I 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.760 came down here to listen to some music, make some connections. 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:11.000 Now I'm listening to the what's the price of kilo 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:14.000 aut of electricity? And uh, you know in one of 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.800 the one of the Cuban taps, which he knew by 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:20.119 wrote he he knew all these facts and figures. I 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:24.080 would go into the restroom and gonaix hail. But at 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:26.800 the end he he wheeled in. He said it's over. 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:29.639 They wheeled in this trolley with all these boxes of 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:32.480 cigars that he signed them all. And then he had 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:36.840 this American photographer who was a communist who left the 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:39.280 who had Steve still spoke with a bronx accent. He 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:42.760 came out and he autographed all these photos that he 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:45.639 Jonathan knew this guy, and it was like it was 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:48.440 like you know when you're at when the artists come 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:51.120 out at the end of a show to sign CDs 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:55.639 and everything that was were all these guys who were 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.360 sort of paid to not lose their cool, were like fanboys. 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:02.040 And then Grazer does and buy a photo, but he 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:04.680 says to Fidel, you know who running to know really 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:06.800 all about how he made his hair stand up straight. 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:09.480 He wanted to know about hair gel and Brian Grazer. 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:11.840 He says, well, sign sign my chest. When you just 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:15.120 sign my chest and he goes, no, I'm not gonna say, 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.320 well sign my shirt. Sure enough he Fidel Castro sign 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:20.840 says shirt. It was a it was a crazy uh 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:23.439 end to a memorable lunch. 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:35.240 So you walk out of the building. At first there's silence, 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:37.600 Then you look at each other, what do you say? 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:39.680 What did everybody say? At that point? 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:41.399 Well, we all get in the car and it's like 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:43.560 teeming rain, and just as soon as we're about to 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:45.800 pull out, the sky's open, you know, and it's all 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:48.040 of a sudden, it's like a tropical paradise again. So 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:50.439 we put the tops down and we're all kind of 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.639 stunned and people going, wow, that was something you believe 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:55.760 that you were heading to the airport because he had to. 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:58.560 We tipped in and charted a plane to cant Coon 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:01.399 because he couldn't really go on a commercial flight in 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:03.639 those days. So we took this little plane, we filled 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:05.840 it up and we get in a plane. I remember 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:08.520 Brad Gray says, no one had said anything really yet, 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.960 and he says, so where are we going next? You know, 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:15.600 let's just skip over the whole experience and go into 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:19.200 the next chapter. So it was a that was a a. 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:21.960 And then we all got fined fifty five thousand dollars. 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:26.199 That was bad news. That was bad news, and we 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:28.160 had to get out of it. We hired reich Hooter's 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:30.119 lawyer because he had had the same problem when he 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:33.399 made Buinnivist the social club, and the lawyer turned out 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:35.080 to be a guy who worked in the Treasury department. 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.120 He used to find people like us for doing it. 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:40.800 And then what the worst one worst thing happened to 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:43.400 less Moonviz. Because he was in the middle of negotiations 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:47.600 with David Letterman, and Letterman couldn't get over the less Moon. 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:51.280 He's having a link a fight negotiating with David Letterman, 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:53.600 and he did a skit called Lunch with Fidel and 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:57.360 Less and they would whe let these comedians. This guy 0:19:57.560 --> 0:19:59.440 was dressed up as Fidel Castro and a guy was 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:03.240 dressed up at with the less Moonvez and Less would 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:05.120 say to these ina things like I have the biggest 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:10.800 office in Hollywood, or I went to Fiddel's Grammy party 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:12.879 and he let me whip some artists and you know, 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:15.960 things like that. And uh, I think Less took the 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:19.359 brunt of the joke, that's for sure, but it was 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.560 it was you know, we ended up getting I ended 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:25.879 up getting relationships in Cuba, which was my original intent, 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:28.000 and we were able to get some music out of 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:28.919 there and so forth. 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:34.399 Okay, you were told that it was okay to do 0:20:34.480 --> 0:20:39.000 it and then ultimately find you know, the Silicon Valley 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:43.639 mantra is you know, ask for permission after the fact. 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.119 Is that the kind of guy you are we're gonna 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:47.880 do it. It's gonna work out in the long run. 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:48.640 Are you fearful? 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:48.840 Wait? 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:50.800 Wait this is illegal or I heard this? 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:54.359 Well in some cases yeah, but in this case, I 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:56.440 was told we had this what they call a cultural 0:20:56.520 --> 0:21:00.840 exchange visa and Jonathan arranging, So man, it'd be a 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:02.760 lay up to get those I mean, you guys, you're 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:05.439 going down there looking for music. It's okay, and you know, 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:07.400 we all thought we were golden. Then when I get 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:09.520 this note in the mails, like an inch thick a 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:13.440 thing from a Treasury department, I called Jonathan and he goes, yeah, 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:15.119 we had it. I have it too. I got the 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:17.840 same package. But I think we jumped the shark when 0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:20.159 we had lunch with Fidel Castro. That wasn't sort of 0:21:20.200 --> 0:21:27.200 included as cultural exchange. But in general, I'd be more 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:31.199 inclined to if someone said, well, we could have a 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:33.199 problem doing that. I mean, you assess the risks, and 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:35.879 sometimes you just go ahead and everything works out. You're 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:38.640 not if you just play by the rules or listen 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:41.399 to lawyers all your life. You know, you're kind of 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:44.640 handicapped in a way, particularly if you want to move 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:45.320 with any speed. 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:50.080 Okay, ultimately, Fidel bored you. But you know, we all 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:53.919 had these experiences with famous people and a lot of 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:56.920 times you say, I can't believe that's the guy. Other 0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:00.679 times you go, wow, that guy lives up to the 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:04.400 rep So with all this history, the Cuban missile crisis, 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:07.639 et cetera, you're there with Fidel. You're saying, you know, 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:09.640 he may be boring me, but he knows what he's doing. 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:12.320 Or you're saying, I can't believe this guy's running the country. 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:15.239 Well, no, you have to respect for him. I mean, 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:17.000 he would tell me he was still he told me 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:19.400 he still earns, he still earned sneakers, he works out 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:21.840 an hour a day. I mean, he had controlled this 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:24.480 whole country in every way, shape or form, like no 0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:26.680 autocrat really gets a chance to do. Because it was 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:30.040 a small island, not that small. But you know, I 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:32.240 mean he was a man of consequence. He had withstood 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:34.399 a lot of stuff, and he was just dabbling around 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:36.320 with us. But I mean he was I don't know 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:38.600 what he was expecting from us, but he when he 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:41.520 starts talking, he kind of goes into a routine, and 0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:44.800 you know, we're hearing all the facts about the triumphs 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:49.119 of the revolution and the superior medical system they have 0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:51.960 and the work they do in Angola and this and that. Yeah, 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:55.240 and it's interesting. But if you're with somebody and they 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:59.440 talked for almost five hours straight, you know, you don't 0:22:59.440 --> 0:23:03.960 see a lot of that. And at one point he 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:07.880 wanted to say, Less, I want you to bring back 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:11.880 a message to President Clinton. You know about these planes 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:15.320 that keep coming over from Florida dropping leaflets on Havana, 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:18.880 because then he shot two of these planes down. I want, 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:21.520 I want want, I want build and know, I want 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:23.840 Clinton to know that I don't mean problems. I have 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:27.120 good intentions. And Less goes, Yeah, I'll get the message 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:29.159 to him. But I'm thinking, but now George Bush is 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:31.919 the president. He's been the president for two months or 0:23:31.960 --> 0:23:36.919 three months, and I'm thinking he, you know, he was 0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:42.680 really really felt bad that uh, these Cuban exiles or 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:45.600 whatever you want to call him, or flying over and 0:23:45.600 --> 0:23:49.720 doing these things. But and he had to defend his country. 0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:51.800 I mean, I could put myself in his shoes. I'm thinking, 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:54.159 you just can't have somebody coming over in a piper 0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:58.119 plane dumping stuff out and violating your airspace and you 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:00.240 warn them a few times and then you have to, 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:03.199 you know, shoot him down. I get it. But he 0:24:03.320 --> 0:24:05.960 was concerned, and yeah, maybe that's one of the reasons 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:07.879 he wanted to meet us, was to have an opportunity 0:24:07.920 --> 0:24:10.280 to send some you know, sort of under the table 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:14.720 or you know, messages back to the American government. Two 0:24:14.800 --> 0:24:16.520 unusual connections. 0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:19.880 What other heads of stints have you met. 0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:23.840 Well, I'm trying to think in my life and when 0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:27.840 I was at MTV and Viacom, you know, I met 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:32.959 or I met I met Justin Trudeau a few times 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:36.880 when we were working my work with Bread, I met him. 0:24:37.359 --> 0:24:40.639 I'm going through the list now in my head. Once 0:24:40.720 --> 0:24:43.880 I was in Mexico at a U two show years ago, 0:24:43.960 --> 0:24:46.879 and I believe a president of Mexico showed up. But 0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:51.359 you know, these were like not in depth meetings or anything. 0:24:51.520 --> 0:24:54.119 This is sort of a meet and greet. I haven't 0:24:54.119 --> 0:24:58.520 really had any exchanges with any you know, American presidents. Yes, 0:24:59.080 --> 0:25:02.639 but I don't think as I think now, Bob, nothing 0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:04.720 really jumps out of me that I was hanging out 0:25:04.760 --> 0:25:07.240 with the heads of state in any consequential way. 0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:11.520 Okay, you go on about Bono reaches out after your 0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:14.920 tenure at Via Commons, you work with him on Red. 0:25:16.080 --> 0:25:20.200 Bono has a The public perception is shall I say, 0:25:20.280 --> 0:25:24.320 Kira Sciro. Some people positive, some people negative. What do 0:25:24.400 --> 0:25:26.000 people not get about Bono? 0:25:28.359 --> 0:25:30.359 Well, I'm a fan, you know. I know a lot 0:25:30.400 --> 0:25:33.040 of people think he's a wind bag and why is 0:25:33.080 --> 0:25:35.720 he doing all this stuff? But I've seen this guy 0:25:35.720 --> 0:25:37.960 who has a very busy life, and all the amount 0:25:38.000 --> 0:25:40.440 of time and effort he would spend on this when 0:25:40.440 --> 0:25:44.680 he could be doing something you know that other people 0:25:44.800 --> 0:25:48.840 might find more personally gratifying, vacationing or spending more time, 0:25:49.880 --> 0:25:52.680 you know, around the house or listen to music. He would, 0:25:53.720 --> 0:25:55.320 you know, go to Africa for a couple of weeks 0:25:55.359 --> 0:25:57.560 and he'd work. He'd be working eighteen hours a day. 0:25:58.520 --> 0:26:03.320 I mean, he really really wanted to make a difference. 0:26:03.960 --> 0:26:08.359 He really cared about injustice. He really believed that activists 0:26:08.359 --> 0:26:11.359 could be lifted up because change in governments. He really 0:26:11.400 --> 0:26:13.119 believed this. He was a good man, he was a 0:26:13.119 --> 0:26:17.439 great speaker. So I've seen him wear himself down. I 0:26:17.440 --> 0:26:19.200 mean at some point that's how I kind of came 0:26:19.240 --> 0:26:23.280 into the picture. Because McGuinness, Paul McGinnis, who you know, 0:26:24.160 --> 0:26:27.240 he called me because I turned down Bono's overtures and 0:26:27.280 --> 0:26:29.399 he called me. He said, you know, why don't you 0:26:29.440 --> 0:26:33.320 come over. You know, Bono's got these do gooder things going. 0:26:33.400 --> 0:26:36.440 It's kind of upsetting the band in a bunch of ways, 0:26:37.320 --> 0:26:40.680 and he could use some help. These things are running 0:26:40.680 --> 0:26:42.280 off the rails a bit. He could use a little 0:26:42.280 --> 0:26:46.560 help and bring a little organization to bear. And so 0:26:46.640 --> 0:26:50.000 I went over and be pitched me, and Bono pitched me, 0:26:50.040 --> 0:26:52.680 and I think guy had been so good to me, 0:26:53.320 --> 0:26:54.919 and I believed in what he was doing, and I 0:26:54.920 --> 0:26:58.840 saw his sincerity, and I'm a fan. So I signed 0:26:58.920 --> 0:27:01.080 up and said I would do three months. I'd give 0:27:01.119 --> 0:27:03.119 you a report back. I go around and talk to 0:27:03.160 --> 0:27:05.280 people and I'll tell you how many want to reorganize 0:27:05.280 --> 0:27:07.760 these things in a way that might work more efficiently 0:27:07.800 --> 0:27:09.880 and effectively and take up less of your time, which 0:27:09.920 --> 0:27:13.679 I did. And it was interesting because in it it 0:27:13.800 --> 0:27:15.959 was like, well, you're going to fire some people, you know, 0:27:15.960 --> 0:27:18.800 he got some people here are either too political or extraneous, 0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:22.200 and he was really reluctant on that score. And I saw, 0:27:22.800 --> 0:27:26.000 like the loyalty the man feels, he's a loyal guy. 0:27:26.080 --> 0:27:28.159 I could see why the band's been together for all 0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:30.440 these years, something we don't really see in any bands 0:27:30.440 --> 0:27:33.399 that have been around for that many decades. But you know, 0:27:33.480 --> 0:27:36.119 finally I had my way and I said I'll see you. 0:27:36.600 --> 0:27:38.040 And he said, well, why don't you just stay on 0:27:38.080 --> 0:27:41.080 the board, Why don't you be the board chair. I 0:27:41.160 --> 0:27:43.920 had had no real experience on being a board chair 0:27:44.000 --> 0:27:45.800 or anything, but I said, sure, I'll do it. I'm 0:27:45.840 --> 0:27:48.720 still the board chair. The work has been very gratifying 0:27:48.760 --> 0:27:51.200 for me. And he's kind of peeled off the bed. 0:27:51.280 --> 0:27:53.439 He's dropped off the board. He's a founder now he 0:27:53.480 --> 0:27:59.560 still does stuff. But your question was is he basically 0:27:59.680 --> 0:28:02.840 is he bullshitter or not. He's a hard working guy. 0:28:03.200 --> 0:28:05.480 He spent so much of his personal time, Bob, I 0:28:05.520 --> 0:28:10.359 mean so much on this work. I mean, you know, 0:28:11.320 --> 0:28:15.480 for no money and doing it sincerely and being brought 0:28:15.520 --> 0:28:18.600 to tears in places. So I have great respect for that. 0:28:18.680 --> 0:28:20.920 And he could you know, he stands up a guy, 0:28:20.960 --> 0:28:24.240 gives a good speech, and he you know, he's got 0:28:24.240 --> 0:28:27.679 the ability to talk and relate to lots of people, 0:28:27.760 --> 0:28:33.080 sort of almost a Clinton esque, you know, sincerity. He 0:28:33.560 --> 0:28:36.120 listens to people. Yes, he talks a lot. 0:28:37.880 --> 0:28:41.160 Does he have a sense of humor about himself. Is 0:28:41.200 --> 0:28:43.720 he aware of public perception or is he living in 0:28:43.760 --> 0:28:44.200 a bubble? 0:28:45.200 --> 0:28:47.720 Oh no, he knows, you know. I mean I remember 0:28:47.720 --> 0:28:49.600 one time I was down in as you know, he's 0:28:49.640 --> 0:28:52.000 got a place down there, and we were driving around 0:28:52.040 --> 0:28:54.600 in his car. It's got like I'm a modest car. 0:28:54.640 --> 0:28:57.400 And you know, most artists they don't like to listen 0:28:57.440 --> 0:28:59.240 to their own music. You know, they go into a 0:28:59.280 --> 0:29:01.280 club and someone playing their music and it's like, I 0:29:01.720 --> 0:29:03.800 don't want to hear. He can't get enough of his 0:29:03.840 --> 0:29:07.040 own music. So I remember he's, Uh, we're in some 0:29:07.080 --> 0:29:09.120 car and he's got it turned up to like eleven, 0:29:09.480 --> 0:29:13.200 and there's some Someboddy like in the next car rolling 0:29:13.200 --> 0:29:15.400 down in the windows, telling them basically to turn it down, 0:29:15.480 --> 0:29:17.480 even though it's coming kind of coming through windows. He 0:29:17.840 --> 0:29:20.400 he just thinks, it's how it's fucking bono, man, it's 0:29:20.440 --> 0:29:23.760 fucking fuck bono. He goes, yeah, fuck bono. He likes, 0:29:24.520 --> 0:29:27.920 he enjoys the people who take him down. I mean, 0:29:27.960 --> 0:29:30.200 he's fully aware of it, and it just rolls off 0:29:30.280 --> 0:29:32.520 him and he finds some humor in it. He knows, 0:29:33.360 --> 0:29:37.160 he knows what people don't like about him. And you know, 0:29:37.960 --> 0:29:39.200 he can roll with the punches. 0:29:40.120 --> 0:29:43.160 So what's the status of the organization today. 0:29:44.200 --> 0:29:48.440 Well, we have two organizations that basically are sort of 0:29:48.840 --> 0:29:51.640 like a little conglomerate. There's one the One Campaign, which 0:29:51.680 --> 0:29:54.640 is the activist organization that you know, it does two 0:29:54.720 --> 0:29:57.720 things that sort of lobbies governments to line up and 0:29:57.760 --> 0:30:01.600 do the right things on police and financial commitments they 0:30:01.640 --> 0:30:04.760 make to the South to Africa and to and help 0:30:04.800 --> 0:30:08.040 people in the South like be better to stand on 0:30:08.080 --> 0:30:13.920 their own feet and you know, and help policies be 0:30:14.320 --> 0:30:17.400 you know, how would I say this? You know, they 0:30:17.480 --> 0:30:19.400 just be smart. AID if we're going to do aid 0:30:19.520 --> 0:30:21.120 A doesn't work in a lot of ways, and we 0:30:21.200 --> 0:30:24.000 recognize that and really the key to development in Africa 0:30:24.080 --> 0:30:26.360 is going to be from the private sector. But one 0:30:26.400 --> 0:30:28.479 place it does work is in the health sector. And 0:30:28.840 --> 0:30:31.360 there's been twenty five million people now walking around in 0:30:31.400 --> 0:30:34.200 Africa who would have been dead because they're on any 0:30:34.240 --> 0:30:38.320 retroviral drugs which are financed thirty percent by the United States. 0:30:38.360 --> 0:30:40.880 But and we were the leaders and the rest by 0:30:41.000 --> 0:30:44.120 you know, other countries, and it's made a huge difference. 0:30:44.160 --> 0:30:47.200 You know, towns where coffin making was the chief business 0:30:47.240 --> 0:30:50.320 and the whole city was falling under and a state 0:30:50.440 --> 0:30:52.560 was on its way to becoming a failed state. Kind 0:30:52.560 --> 0:30:55.760 of revived and it's been great what we do now. 0:30:55.800 --> 0:30:57.800 And now we're trying to switch to making it a 0:30:57.840 --> 0:31:01.920 real African based organization helping African leaders, you know, kind 0:31:01.920 --> 0:31:04.280 of finance their you know, end ofate, finance their own 0:31:04.280 --> 0:31:06.640 health systems and so forth. That's a challenge for us. 0:31:06.800 --> 0:31:10.400 The biggest challenge now, for one, is that Trump blew 0:31:10.440 --> 0:31:14.240 a hole. You know, he closed down USAID and a 0:31:14.240 --> 0:31:19.480 lot of foreign aids. So it's just crippling, and it's 0:31:19.520 --> 0:31:22.600 such a hole it's impossible to fill with Bill Gates 0:31:22.680 --> 0:31:25.520 or any of these foundations. It's and and it means 0:31:25.560 --> 0:31:28.280 that you know, tens of millions of people aren't going 0:31:28.320 --> 0:31:31.400 to get the drugs they need. We actually had stores 0:31:31.440 --> 0:31:34.880 of these drugs for you know, stocked up in the UAE, 0:31:35.080 --> 0:31:38.720 and rather than give them out, the Trump administration had 0:31:38.720 --> 0:31:42.520 them burned. We had stores of these high protein bars 0:31:42.520 --> 0:31:45.800 for children in Sudan. Rather than give them out or 0:31:45.800 --> 0:31:48.200 give them to save the children or some other NGO, 0:31:48.560 --> 0:31:51.680 we had them burned and destroyed. It's like cruelty is 0:31:51.720 --> 0:31:54.640 sort of in the DNA of the administration and the 0:31:54.760 --> 0:31:59.479 richest man in the world would would would say that 0:31:59.680 --> 0:32:04.680 us AID, which spends one third of one percent of 0:32:04.720 --> 0:32:09.120 the national budget, say twenty million dollars, is a criminal 0:32:09.240 --> 0:32:11.920 organization that does that. He put in the wood chipper, 0:32:12.280 --> 0:32:14.560 and it's and people who work there at criminals. I know, 0:32:14.680 --> 0:32:17.200 these people they're like do gooders. I mean, they could 0:32:17.240 --> 0:32:21.000 have made a lot of money and done things, you know, 0:32:21.520 --> 0:32:23.360 made a lot more money. And if they were in 0:32:23.400 --> 0:32:25.320 the private sector, and I'm sure there was a lot 0:32:25.320 --> 0:32:27.480 of things going on there that could have been done 0:32:27.480 --> 0:32:29.080 better or maybe you shouldn't have been done at all. But 0:32:29.680 --> 0:32:32.920 that's like a footnote in the sense of the good 0:32:32.960 --> 0:32:34.959 things that they did in the lives that they saved. 0:32:35.200 --> 0:32:38.120 I mean, we give twenty forty billion dollars to Argentina. 0:32:39.240 --> 0:32:42.280 You know. Meanwhile, the twenty billion that we were spending, 0:32:43.000 --> 0:32:45.080 the part of what we spent in Africa was keeping 0:32:45.120 --> 0:32:48.520 people alive, and it was burnishing America's image in a 0:32:48.560 --> 0:32:51.120 good way, which we certainly need. And secondly, it was 0:32:51.160 --> 0:32:54.360 good for American security because you don't want migration to 0:32:54.440 --> 0:32:57.600 be you know, increased in flooding. And you know, it 0:32:57.680 --> 0:33:00.000 was a small when the richest country in the histy 0:33:00.280 --> 0:33:04.360 the world can't do that, and yet we have twice 0:33:04.360 --> 0:33:06.720 that amount of money to the government of Argentina for 0:33:06.760 --> 0:33:09.160 no apparent good reason. And you make people in the 0:33:09.160 --> 0:33:15.360 civil service feel so diminished and disregarded. And these are 0:33:15.360 --> 0:33:17.560 one these are these are people who are some of 0:33:17.560 --> 0:33:20.640 our best citizens. It's just just sad. So we're dealing 0:33:20.720 --> 0:33:22.880 with that. How do we plug the hole here? How 0:33:22.880 --> 0:33:24.840 do we help get Africa on the road to being 0:33:24.960 --> 0:33:29.160 self sufficient more quickly? Uh So we're doing that and Read, 0:33:29.240 --> 0:33:32.080 which is sort of the sister organization, you know, they 0:33:32.080 --> 0:33:35.640 do these phones and the you know, we've raised about 0:33:35.640 --> 0:33:38.200 eight hundred million dollars and all the money goes to 0:33:38.280 --> 0:33:42.880 the Global Fund, which is for AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria. 0:33:43.040 --> 0:33:45.480 We want it. We want to get that to a 0:33:45.560 --> 0:33:50.440 billion dollars. There's now, believe it or not, an AIDS 0:33:50.520 --> 0:33:54.480 vaccine finally available, going to be available in the near term, 0:33:54.600 --> 0:33:56.600 which is this huge thing with people have been talking 0:33:56.600 --> 0:34:00.640 about for years. Uh So we're trying to figure out 0:34:00.680 --> 0:34:04.200 how we couple that and the getting the distribution of 0:34:04.240 --> 0:34:07.240 that done and paid for in a way that could 0:34:07.240 --> 0:34:09.960 be efficient. So we've got a handful of challenges. We've 0:34:10.000 --> 0:34:12.920 got an African CEO now, which is part of the 0:34:12.960 --> 0:34:15.200 move to kind of I want to really move this 0:34:15.320 --> 0:34:18.200 into being an African led organization, not Southern with a 0:34:18.239 --> 0:34:22.839 bunch of white Northerners and eventually just have it sort 0:34:22.840 --> 0:34:27.120 of sit there. So we're in transition trying to deal 0:34:27.160 --> 0:34:33.200 with the discombobulation of this whole ecosystem that has been 0:34:34.640 --> 0:34:38.040 created by the Trump administration and Doze and Musk and 0:34:38.080 --> 0:34:40.239 all of that frustrating. 0:34:40.719 --> 0:34:43.759 So what is the overall budget of these organizations and 0:34:43.800 --> 0:34:47.120 how many people are on the payroll? 0:34:47.320 --> 0:34:49.399 Well, if I look at Red and One together, it's 0:34:49.480 --> 0:34:53.920 probably twenty five to thirty million a year. That includes 0:34:53.960 --> 0:35:02.160 mostly employees, do gooders, activists. It's funded entirely from private 0:35:02.200 --> 0:35:07.080 sector funds. You know, we have money, you know, John Dorr, 0:35:07.960 --> 0:35:16.799 George Sorows, Mike Bloomberg, Build Gates Foundation, other people, And 0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:21.960 that's what we do. And it's less money than we 0:35:22.080 --> 0:35:24.040 used to spend. We've been hit like a lot of 0:35:24.120 --> 0:35:28.920 organizations have with these cutbacks in general. So what we 0:35:28.960 --> 0:35:31.600 can do a lot of good work with that amount 0:35:31.600 --> 0:35:34.080 of funding. It's not all the money in the world, 0:35:34.520 --> 0:35:36.400 and I would say, none of it's really wasted. It 0:35:36.440 --> 0:35:38.799 goes to good effort. It goes for good But in 0:35:38.840 --> 0:35:42.640 the case of Red, every cent that read raises, one 0:35:43.040 --> 0:35:48.560 percent of it goes to buying largely these antiretroviral drugs. 0:35:49.000 --> 0:35:51.720 So it's not like one of these things where people 0:35:51.719 --> 0:35:54.120 give money and it's always going to some bloated overhead. 0:35:54.600 --> 0:35:57.200 The overhead itself is covered by a couple of donors 0:35:57.200 --> 0:36:06.360 and it's really small. 0:36:06.520 --> 0:36:09.799 In the book, you talk about as part of this effort, 0:36:10.040 --> 0:36:13.520 you deal with politicos and you say they don't always 0:36:13.800 --> 0:36:17.799 these elected officials don't always square with your perception, and 0:36:17.840 --> 0:36:19.600 you can have a meeting of the minds. Can you 0:36:19.640 --> 0:36:20.600 tell me more about that. 0:36:21.560 --> 0:36:25.160 Well, all my life I had avoided politic politicians. It's 0:36:25.200 --> 0:36:26.840 one of the reasons I never met a lot of them. 0:36:26.880 --> 0:36:30.719 When I was in working at MTV Networks, at Viacom, 0:36:31.440 --> 0:36:34.680 I had avoided a lot of them. One they tried 0:36:34.719 --> 0:36:36.640 to draft me and send me to Vietnam when I 0:36:36.680 --> 0:36:42.520 was younger, just like they did to you two. Jimmy 0:36:42.520 --> 0:36:45.040 Carter kind of ended my business like on the drop 0:36:45.080 --> 0:36:48.279 of a nickel in the late seventies. The business I 0:36:48.320 --> 0:36:50.680 worked so hard for for eight years. I announced one day, 0:36:50.840 --> 0:36:53.400 we're going to do an embargo on clothes from India. 0:36:54.000 --> 0:36:55.959 You know, there was no warning. It's just the same 0:36:56.040 --> 0:36:58.719 thing that's happened now with Trump and his tariffs. I mean, 0:36:59.239 --> 0:37:01.800 you're a small businessman and you just can't afford to 0:37:02.080 --> 0:37:05.960 pay this kind of money. There's so many companies now, 0:37:06.200 --> 0:37:08.600 like small companies that are going through exactly this. You're 0:37:08.600 --> 0:37:11.719 a furniture importer from China or Indonesia. You've got to 0:37:11.760 --> 0:37:14.520 pay fifty percent more for this stuff, and you know, 0:37:14.640 --> 0:37:17.319 you don't your employees or you know, the parts that 0:37:17.400 --> 0:37:19.080 you need that you're bringing in from out of the 0:37:19.120 --> 0:37:21.640 country or heavily tarraft and you just can't handle it. 0:37:21.680 --> 0:37:23.080 You're going to go under. So we're going to see 0:37:23.080 --> 0:37:26.520 a wave and we're seeing it already of bankruptcies in 0:37:26.560 --> 0:37:29.839 that small business sector. So I was, you know, and 0:37:29.920 --> 0:37:31.799 you know, it always offended me that there was never 0:37:31.840 --> 0:37:35.239 a warning, like, don't these politicians know that these businesses 0:37:35.320 --> 0:37:37.719 could like give them a little time to adjust, don't 0:37:37.800 --> 0:37:41.240 just kill everything day one. I mean, give them some warning. 0:37:41.239 --> 0:37:45.799 There's like it's like they never had the stand put there, 0:37:46.080 --> 0:37:48.480 you know, standing the feet stand in the shoes of 0:37:48.880 --> 0:37:51.440 a small businessman. They don't know what it's like to 0:37:51.480 --> 0:37:53.560 be living from nickel to dive and have a cash 0:37:53.600 --> 0:37:56.040 flow crunch. I mean, they just decrease something and assume 0:37:56.080 --> 0:37:58.600 everything's going to fall into place, but the pain is extensive. 0:37:58.880 --> 0:38:02.360 So I was never a f of politicians. When I 0:38:02.400 --> 0:38:04.480 started working with Red and One, I began to meet 0:38:04.520 --> 0:38:07.880 a lot of them, and I was impressed by their sincerity. 0:38:07.920 --> 0:38:10.239 I mean, these weren't the guys who were enforcing the 0:38:10.320 --> 0:38:13.440 things that had pained me. But you know, even somebody 0:38:13.480 --> 0:38:15.680 like Mike Huckabee, who I know now is sort of 0:38:15.719 --> 0:38:17.960 the ambassador to Israel at all. I spent a lot 0:38:17.960 --> 0:38:20.480 of time with him. We'd drive around. I was John Kasik, 0:38:20.800 --> 0:38:23.319 John Podesta. We used to take these bipartisan groups on 0:38:23.360 --> 0:38:26.520 these tours to see things. I found that the best 0:38:26.520 --> 0:38:29.120 way to get someone as a being advocate about Africa 0:38:29.160 --> 0:38:31.799 and extreme poverty was to take them there, because once 0:38:31.840 --> 0:38:33.600 they got there, their hearts would open and they could 0:38:33.600 --> 0:38:36.200 see that good things were being done, particularly in the 0:38:36.200 --> 0:38:39.560 health area. And these were nice people. I remember a 0:38:39.600 --> 0:38:42.120 time once we were in Liberia, which was really a 0:38:42.160 --> 0:38:45.160 war torn country, and you know, had had this really 0:38:45.239 --> 0:38:49.080 ugly civil war, and we were going to meet the president. 0:38:49.960 --> 0:38:52.040 It was Bono myself. There was a group of us, 0:38:52.040 --> 0:38:55.960 and then into town pulls up Lindsey Graham, John Thune, 0:38:55.960 --> 0:39:04.840 and John the senator from Arizona who passed McKenney McCain 0:39:05.080 --> 0:39:08.080 Sidney McCain. So all these people had spent ten days 0:39:08.080 --> 0:39:13.320 of what was basically their recess ended the summer recess, 0:39:14.080 --> 0:39:19.839 going around from Sudan to Rwanda, to Congo to Liberia, 0:39:20.560 --> 0:39:23.719 going around on this congressional delegation when they you know, 0:39:23.719 --> 0:39:25.759 they could have been home doing barbecues or listening to 0:39:25.800 --> 0:39:29.160 their constituents. And I was so impressed. These were Republicans, 0:39:29.239 --> 0:39:31.680 they cared about this issue. I mean, it's funny to 0:39:31.719 --> 0:39:33.719 see where they are now, but I mean I would say, well, 0:39:33.760 --> 0:39:36.560 they really in their heart, their hearts are okay. This 0:39:36.640 --> 0:39:38.480 is an issue that you know, left and right could 0:39:38.800 --> 0:39:42.840 agree on, and they have for a long time. So 0:39:43.080 --> 0:39:45.440 I would as I spend time with these people, as 0:39:45.520 --> 0:39:48.560 often happens, when you meet people with whom you might 0:39:48.600 --> 0:39:51.320 have some prejudice against, they turn out to be human 0:39:51.360 --> 0:39:54.200 and you have some common ground and you end up 0:39:54.239 --> 0:39:55.520 having a good feeling about them. 0:39:56.800 --> 0:39:59.200 So talking about Africa, when I was growing up, there 0:39:59.239 --> 0:40:02.800 was the Congo. Then I was in college at a 0:40:02.840 --> 0:40:07.480 friend of mine set his brother had hitchhiked through Africa. Certainly, 0:40:07.480 --> 0:40:11.279 in the seventies, a lot of young Americans went to Europe. 0:40:11.800 --> 0:40:16.319 Now they go to Asia. On some level, Africa's still 0:40:16.360 --> 0:40:19.640 a black hole. People are afraid to go there. What 0:40:19.800 --> 0:40:21.920 is really going on in Africa now. 0:40:24.040 --> 0:40:26.760 Well, it's hard to speak of it as a single 0:40:26.800 --> 0:40:30.000 continent because it's fifty four countries and some of them 0:40:30.000 --> 0:40:33.400 are really conflict zones, like the dr he liked, the Congo, 0:40:33.800 --> 0:40:35.880 like the Sudan. I mean, you know, you look at 0:40:35.880 --> 0:40:38.160 the eastern Congo. The six million people have been killed 0:40:38.160 --> 0:40:40.640 there in the last ten twenty years in the wake 0:40:40.680 --> 0:40:44.480 of the Rwandan comeback from their genocide, or the Sudan. 0:40:44.520 --> 0:40:46.040 It's just, you know, we've seen this stuff on the 0:40:46.120 --> 0:40:50.719 news recently, and now you've got al Qaeda about to 0:40:50.760 --> 0:40:57.600 take over Congo and Urkina Faso, and South Africa, which 0:40:57.680 --> 0:41:02.319 had been Africa's economy, has you know, has sort of 0:41:02.360 --> 0:41:06.120 plagued with all kinds of political issues and shortages of 0:41:06.160 --> 0:41:08.759 this and that. So but there are places that are 0:41:08.840 --> 0:41:16.600 doing well you can Rwanda, Ghana, the hand Senegal, Kenya. 0:41:17.080 --> 0:41:19.040 These are countries that are kind of emerging to be 0:41:19.160 --> 0:41:23.760 middle class countries. So it's a mix. Some are war zones, 0:41:24.400 --> 0:41:27.040 some are about to become true middle class countries. Others 0:41:27.080 --> 0:41:29.120 are sort of on the middle. They're trying to fight off, 0:41:29.560 --> 0:41:33.920 you know, to hottest organizations across the Sahel. You know, 0:41:34.000 --> 0:41:38.120 look at Somalia. They've been lingering on the edge for 0:41:38.200 --> 0:41:44.640 a long time, but there is a population explosion going 0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:49.040 on there. There is, on average, an increase in disposable income. 0:41:49.120 --> 0:41:51.719 A middle class is emerging in a lot of these countries. 0:41:52.000 --> 0:41:57.280 Their primary problem is governance. You know, there's there's still corruption, 0:41:58.040 --> 0:42:01.000 which is you know, the level of corruption is almost 0:42:01.080 --> 0:42:05.160 equal to the amount of is greater than the amount 0:42:05.160 --> 0:42:08.080 of foreign aid that pours in there in various places. 0:42:08.360 --> 0:42:11.200 Some people think it's an unstoppable whole. I don't believe that. 0:42:11.239 --> 0:42:13.560 I mean, I've seen progress in places when they get 0:42:13.560 --> 0:42:18.279 governance in shape. Look at Rwanda, it's like you've never 0:42:18.320 --> 0:42:21.600 been to a cleaner country, Bob. The whole population has 0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:23.399 to go out on one Saturday a month and pick 0:42:23.480 --> 0:42:25.719 up garbage and do things. I mean, the place and 0:42:25.760 --> 0:42:28.960 you consider they had this awful eight hundred thousand people 0:42:29.040 --> 0:42:33.040 killed in a genocide in nineteen ninety four. Now it's like, man, 0:42:33.080 --> 0:42:36.160 it's like a paradise there, really clean and clear. I mean, 0:42:36.440 --> 0:42:40.320 an exception to the rule, I'll say. But you know, 0:42:40.480 --> 0:42:43.799 the problems are endemic in some of these other ones, 0:42:43.800 --> 0:42:48.759 and they appear to be unsolvable. But I have a 0:42:48.800 --> 0:42:51.920 connection when I go there, I feel somehow, I feel 0:42:51.920 --> 0:42:57.200 this wonderful sense of purpose, I guess, and when you 0:42:57.239 --> 0:43:00.000 see that, things can improve. I also love the arts. 0:43:00.080 --> 0:43:03.520 The arts are booming and quite often as the arts 0:43:03.520 --> 0:43:04.840 that can help bring up a country. You look at 0:43:04.840 --> 0:43:07.960 a country like Nigeria Afro Beat, the music, the music 0:43:08.000 --> 0:43:11.000 everywhere in Africa is sensational. I've been able to travel 0:43:11.000 --> 0:43:13.759 independently to like so many of these musical meccas in 0:43:13.800 --> 0:43:16.320 Africa and really dig down to the history there and 0:43:16.360 --> 0:43:18.719 where there's me all our music kind of came from there. 0:43:19.200 --> 0:43:22.680 So as a music fan first, I find traveling in 0:43:23.040 --> 0:43:25.440 Africa fascinating. I made a lot of separate trips on 0:43:25.440 --> 0:43:28.880 my own just sort of, you know, to take in 0:43:28.920 --> 0:43:30.560 as much African music as I can. 0:43:31.440 --> 0:43:33.839 So to what degree on your travels have you been 0:43:33.880 --> 0:43:40.640 afraid or unafraid for your personal safety? 0:43:41.200 --> 0:43:46.640 Oh, you know, I've been afraid in places when I traveled. 0:43:48.840 --> 0:43:52.080 When I lived in Asia in the eighties or the seventies, 0:43:52.080 --> 0:43:55.160 I should say, in Afghanistan, which people now say, you know, 0:43:55.960 --> 0:43:59.120 the tourists, there was hardly any tourists. It was an 0:43:59.160 --> 0:44:02.920 exotic play. It was open that people really friendly and hospitable. 0:44:03.400 --> 0:44:05.640 People think of it as a place of continuous war. 0:44:06.200 --> 0:44:09.640 They had had fifty years of peace. It was the 0:44:09.680 --> 0:44:12.680 tourist posters. Weren't many tourists who said, visit Afghanistan and 0:44:12.680 --> 0:44:15.600 see the world's friendliest people. That's not the last thing 0:44:15.680 --> 0:44:18.600 most people would think these days. But if you were there, 0:44:18.680 --> 0:44:21.759 it was like that all kinds of young Westerners would 0:44:21.760 --> 0:44:23.480 pass through there. In those days. That was who the 0:44:23.480 --> 0:44:26.839 primary tourists were, and it was everyone whoever went through there, 0:44:27.080 --> 0:44:30.879 you know, basically had a good experience. When I went back. 0:44:30.920 --> 0:44:32.799 I went back for twelve years in and out to 0:44:32.840 --> 0:44:35.560 work for this TV station there, which I really did enjoy. Yeah, 0:44:35.560 --> 0:44:38.200 it was dangerous because there would be the Taliban. There 0:44:38.239 --> 0:44:41.719 was an insurgency fighting, so you would feel, you know, 0:44:41.760 --> 0:44:43.640 you would have to drive fast at nights, so you 0:44:43.640 --> 0:44:46.959 wouldn't get stopped by some kidnapping group, or there would 0:44:46.960 --> 0:44:51.960 be a bomb suicide bombers here or there, and you know, 0:44:52.000 --> 0:44:56.720 you're always sort of filled with adrenaline. But I didn't 0:44:56.760 --> 0:45:01.359 really feel for my personal safety much in the seventies, 0:45:01.719 --> 0:45:05.839 more later on in Africa, not really. You know, things 0:45:05.840 --> 0:45:08.000 are a lot safer than people think. They may look 0:45:08.120 --> 0:45:10.960 dangerous if you drop somebody into a place and it 0:45:11.000 --> 0:45:13.680 looks like a little shady and dangerous, but you know, 0:45:13.719 --> 0:45:15.680 and in the seventies, the most dangerous place in the 0:45:15.680 --> 0:45:20.120 world's New York City. I mean my friends in Afghanistan. 0:45:20.160 --> 0:45:21.840 I say, well, come on, New York, it's great, and 0:45:21.880 --> 0:45:24.719 you go, no, that's crazy. I've seen what's going on 0:45:24.800 --> 0:45:26.480 over there. I'm you're not going to get me near 0:45:26.520 --> 0:45:29.560 New York. Too dangerous for me. The tables have turned now, 0:45:31.760 --> 0:45:36.040 but I haven't been plagued with fears for my own 0:45:36.080 --> 0:45:37.080 safety too much. 0:45:38.400 --> 0:45:40.640 Where have you not been that you would like to go? 0:45:42.160 --> 0:45:43.680 I was talking about that last I'd like to go 0:45:43.719 --> 0:45:47.319 to Tasmania. Have you ever been there? You've been to Australia, right. 0:45:47.200 --> 0:45:48.759 I've been in Australia a couple of times, have not 0:45:48.800 --> 0:45:49.719 been to Tasmania. 0:45:50.200 --> 0:45:52.080 I'd like to go there. I've only been in Australia once. 0:45:52.120 --> 0:45:54.160 I'd like to go to New Zealand. I've never been there. 0:45:56.040 --> 0:45:58.680 I'd like to go. I haven't really dug a deep pole, 0:45:58.800 --> 0:46:01.640 and I'd like to really slower Argentina. Now that they 0:46:01.640 --> 0:46:03.520 got all this American money, you must have been out 0:46:03.560 --> 0:46:05.799 and bathe and some of that. I've never been really 0:46:05.800 --> 0:46:09.960 down to Patagonia. I've never been to southern Chile. You know, 0:46:10.000 --> 0:46:12.760 there's a bunch of spots, haven't There's a plus spots 0:46:12.760 --> 0:46:14.160 I want to kind of feel. And I just went 0:46:14.200 --> 0:46:16.560 to Taiwan with some I have this group of people 0:46:16.560 --> 0:46:18.279 I kind of travel with, you know, we kind of 0:46:18.280 --> 0:46:21.120 took go to places. We went to Taiwan in the fall, 0:46:21.640 --> 0:46:23.920 I mean in the spring, and it was fantastic. I 0:46:23.960 --> 0:46:25.640 had no idea it was such a beautiful island. We 0:46:25.640 --> 0:46:27.600 wanted to get over there before the Chinese took it over. 0:46:28.360 --> 0:46:30.680 And you go there and you come back with a 0:46:30.680 --> 0:46:33.960 whole different impression. Number One, the natural beauty is just 0:46:34.160 --> 0:46:36.840 you know, on the in the eastern part of Taiwan, 0:46:36.880 --> 0:46:38.839 it's like it's like you can drive four or five 0:46:38.880 --> 0:46:40.920 hours and almost not see another house. It's kind of 0:46:40.960 --> 0:46:45.240 subtropical jungle, just fantastic. And the food's really good because 0:46:45.239 --> 0:46:47.719 when Shanghai Check came over at the end of the 0:46:47.800 --> 0:46:52.240 Chinese Civil War, all the rich people came to Taiwan 0:46:52.320 --> 0:46:55.319 and they brought all their chefs with them. So the 0:46:55.400 --> 0:46:58.440 level of food excellence in Taiwan is not to be 0:46:58.960 --> 0:47:03.960 surpassed mainland. Maybe these days, I don't know, but that 0:47:04.000 --> 0:47:06.480 was an interesting tripper. We go to Georgia, you know, 0:47:06.640 --> 0:47:09.040 down there, not the one in America, but the one 0:47:09.080 --> 0:47:11.880 down there on the southern belt of Russia where Stalin 0:47:12.000 --> 0:47:14.680 was from. And so I try and keep an arm 0:47:14.760 --> 0:47:18.120 in the fire and that keeps me excited. And every 0:47:18.120 --> 0:47:19.640 time I go to Africa, I try to go to 0:47:19.680 --> 0:47:20.719 a couple of new places. 0:47:21.920 --> 0:47:24.280 So when you have this group, how many people go. 0:47:25.760 --> 0:47:27.759 There's like four or five of us. There's this guy, 0:47:27.840 --> 0:47:30.759 Sad Mussin, who's an incredible guy. You would love him. 0:47:30.800 --> 0:47:33.520 He's the guy who convinced me to come back to Afghanistan. 0:47:33.560 --> 0:47:36.280 He's the most optimistic man I ever met. He's probably 0:47:36.280 --> 0:47:39.440 in his mid fifties now. He's the guy who started 0:47:39.440 --> 0:47:42.640 the first private TV and radio stations in Afghanistan after 0:47:42.640 --> 0:47:47.200 the fall of the Taliban, and he's living in London 0:47:47.239 --> 0:47:50.080 now London in Dubai, and we'd like to go. We 0:47:50.480 --> 0:47:53.120 went to Yemen, we traveled so much. So he's a 0:47:53.160 --> 0:47:56.759 great travel partner, as is this guy Jonathan Branstein, who 0:47:57.080 --> 0:47:58.840 turned out the guy who got me into Qbe but 0:47:58.880 --> 0:48:01.440 had also been to Malley Molly got me into the 0:48:01.480 --> 0:48:04.960 festival in the desert. You know, he's an eccentric traveler. 0:48:05.000 --> 0:48:07.479 And then I have this friend from Yemen whose father 0:48:07.600 --> 0:48:09.440 used to be president of Yemen. He now lives in 0:48:09.440 --> 0:48:12.040 the UAE. He's in the group. And then there's these 0:48:12.040 --> 0:48:15.520 two American guys who have a company called Zeba who 0:48:15.880 --> 0:48:19.160 who that make really good fruits and nuts from Afghanistan. 0:48:19.200 --> 0:48:22.080 They're still doing business there and they live in Lake Como, 0:48:22.239 --> 0:48:24.759 which is always nice to visit, and they have this 0:48:24.880 --> 0:48:26.960 kind of thriving business even now. In the age of 0:48:27.000 --> 0:48:32.360 the Taliban, Afghanistan was famous for nuts and pomegranates and grapes, 0:48:32.440 --> 0:48:35.000 so they put them in really kind of sexy looking, 0:48:35.040 --> 0:48:37.640 great packaging sell them. It's a whole soul in the 0:48:38.040 --> 0:48:40.520 Arawan and whole foods and those kind of grocers. But 0:48:40.560 --> 0:48:43.319 these guys like to travel and they're really good at it. 0:48:43.400 --> 0:48:45.880 So these are and we like to hike. So hiking 0:48:45.960 --> 0:48:47.960 becomes like, you know, we go to a place where 0:48:47.960 --> 0:48:51.200 you can, you know, hike up in the mountains and 0:48:51.520 --> 0:48:54.360 have some nice, nice traveling around, seeing the nightclubs. 0:48:55.480 --> 0:48:59.560 Everybody's got a different traveling style. Some people their ideas 0:48:59.600 --> 0:49:03.319 get a great hotel room, have service. Other people want 0:49:03.360 --> 0:49:07.240 to go see the historical sites, the museums. You mentioned 0:49:07.239 --> 0:49:11.960 the nightclubs. What kind of traveler are you? 0:49:12.120 --> 0:49:14.440 Well, I don't mind a good hotel, you know, if 0:49:14.440 --> 0:49:17.840 I was, it depends if I'm taking a trip somewhere. 0:49:17.840 --> 0:49:19.600 I mean, it's nothing like a nice hotel. I don't 0:49:19.600 --> 0:49:22.080 want to stay. I mean I've stayed believe me, Bob, 0:49:22.160 --> 0:49:24.759 I have stayed in my share fleabag hotels. I mean, 0:49:24.840 --> 0:49:27.960 you know, I don't. I don't even go into it. 0:49:28.640 --> 0:49:31.319 But you know, we go out now. I mean, we're 0:49:31.360 --> 0:49:34.040 all kind of grown up, so we can afford a 0:49:34.080 --> 0:49:36.400 decent hotel. And if there's a great hotel nearby and 0:49:36.440 --> 0:49:38.040 it's not an armen leg, I would like to stay 0:49:38.040 --> 0:49:40.600 there too. But a lot of it isn't you know, 0:49:40.640 --> 0:49:43.320 if there's a national museum that sounds really cool, unique, 0:49:43.400 --> 0:49:46.000 like there wasn't Taiwan, you'd go there. But I much 0:49:46.080 --> 0:49:49.960 prefer being outside looking at scene, re hiking and trying 0:49:49.960 --> 0:49:51.720 to get a sense of the vibe at the place. 0:49:51.800 --> 0:49:54.600 And you know, I'd like to always investigate them. Whatever 0:49:54.640 --> 0:49:58.120 the music scene is. That for me is a thrill. 0:49:59.320 --> 0:50:01.880 But it isn't like I mean, I'm fully capable of 0:50:03.600 --> 0:50:05.600 packing up and trying to someone says, come to the 0:50:05.640 --> 0:50:08.359 Caribbean for a week, I have a house stay with us. 0:50:08.680 --> 0:50:10.279 I say, that sounds good. I can do that. 0:50:10.800 --> 0:50:11.040 You know. 0:50:11.480 --> 0:50:14.719 I like going to California in the winter. You know, 0:50:14.920 --> 0:50:17.160 to me, that's traveling. I love. I love the Santa 0:50:17.160 --> 0:50:19.719 Barbara area. I just I've had a home up there 0:50:19.760 --> 0:50:24.200 for twenty years, and you know it's beautiful. Of course, 0:50:24.239 --> 0:50:25.960 now i just got eight or nine inches of rain, 0:50:26.080 --> 0:50:27.840 so I'm just wondering if my house has kind of 0:50:28.040 --> 0:50:31.719 washed away again. It's I don't know what happened to California, Bob. 0:50:32.040 --> 0:50:35.279 It used to be beautiful every day, and now if 0:50:35.280 --> 0:50:39.320 it isn't a wildfire, it's a flood, it's a debris flow, 0:50:39.600 --> 0:50:42.200 it's a mud slide, it's like you're on the edge 0:50:42.200 --> 0:50:44.480 of your seat. It's like it cats your adjuta. 0:50:45.040 --> 0:50:48.800 You know, you know it's harder when you're not here. 0:50:49.719 --> 0:50:53.400 It's certainly rained these past few days in terms of 0:50:53.640 --> 0:50:56.960 deleterious effects, fewer than I've ever seen. In terms of 0:50:57.120 --> 0:51:00.040 major rain. I didn't go to visit your house. I 0:51:00.080 --> 0:51:01.240 don't know what it's like there. 0:51:01.480 --> 0:51:04.000 Mine. Mine's turned out okay, and I couldn't believe it. Again, 0:51:04.239 --> 0:51:06.160 over two inches of rain a day, and I thought 0:51:06.200 --> 0:51:08.400 it'd be and I had this guy go check it out. 0:51:08.480 --> 0:51:11.640 He says, you know, everything's okay, no leaks and no mudslives, 0:51:11.760 --> 0:51:14.560 and I almost couldn't believe it. So I'm yeah, you're right. 0:51:14.600 --> 0:51:17.520 I'm back here thinking the worst. And I don't know why. 0:51:17.680 --> 0:51:19.719 It seems like there was good every No one really 0:51:19.760 --> 0:51:21.000 had any major damage. 0:51:21.160 --> 0:51:24.359 No, we traditionally have this mud problem from the hill 0:51:24.400 --> 0:51:27.400 behind our house. We put up, you know, a very 0:51:27.400 --> 0:51:31.440 small fence, but nothing came through. I mean this, this 0:51:31.520 --> 0:51:36.720 speaks to a completely different issue, which is perception. I mean, 0:51:36.760 --> 0:51:40.480 when you ran MTV, it was a monoculture. If you 0:51:40.520 --> 0:51:43.200 put an act on, they were known all over the world. 0:51:44.520 --> 0:51:48.920 Now you know California's pejorative. You know, I saw this 0:51:49.000 --> 0:51:51.560 great video where someone went to a business conference in 0:51:51.640 --> 0:51:55.400 you know, North Carolina, and the legitimate people they are saying, 0:51:55.400 --> 0:51:58.360 what about the twenty five dollars Hamburgers? You know, what 0:51:58.440 --> 0:52:01.080 about everybody? Can your kid go to school without a gun? 0:52:01.520 --> 0:52:04.799 You know, everybody thinks it's a hell hole, where as 0:52:04.840 --> 0:52:08.160 we're living here. It's kind of a joke. Listen. It's 0:52:08.239 --> 0:52:11.319 just like you're saying, there were all these places that 0:52:11.360 --> 0:52:13.960 were off the grid. Is there any place that's off 0:52:13.960 --> 0:52:14.880 the grid anymore? 0:52:16.920 --> 0:52:20.239 No? I mean, yeah, if there is one, someone's gonna 0:52:20.239 --> 0:52:21.840 go there and put on Instagram and it'll be on 0:52:21.880 --> 0:52:23.680 the grid in a bad way before you know it. 0:52:23.800 --> 0:52:25.719 You know, but what you're saying is right. Like when 0:52:25.719 --> 0:52:27.520 I lived in Afghanistan, people say, oh man, you must 0:52:27.520 --> 0:52:28.759 be on the edge of your seat all the time. 0:52:29.280 --> 0:52:31.560 Like people are living like normal lives pretty most of 0:52:31.600 --> 0:52:34.000 the time. You know, it's not like that. I mean, 0:52:34.000 --> 0:52:35.360 there may be a bomb on the other side of 0:52:35.360 --> 0:52:37.439 the toath I can bear route, but you know, two 0:52:37.480 --> 0:52:40.680 blocks away, everything's kind of normal. It's really kind of bizarre. 0:52:40.880 --> 0:52:43.000 And California is that way everybody think is gonna be 0:52:43.040 --> 0:52:46.080 just filled with homeless people. And but when you're even me, 0:52:46.120 --> 0:52:48.280 who's experienced and spent a lot of time in California, 0:52:48.360 --> 0:52:50.800 now I'm thinking, oh man, it's like I'm going to 0:52:50.960 --> 0:52:54.240 wash into the sea, because you know, the media blows 0:52:54.239 --> 0:52:56.719 it up and I have all these websites. I go 0:52:56.800 --> 0:52:58.840 to the show rain gages and so forth. 0:52:58.960 --> 0:53:05.040 But yeah, well I remember in the nineties, couple times 0:53:05.040 --> 0:53:08.239 we're rain this hard for a week straight. You could bear, 0:53:08.280 --> 0:53:10.080 you know, you left your house, you would drive through 0:53:10.120 --> 0:53:13.920 big puddles. You worry about your engine getting wet. I'm 0:53:14.000 --> 0:53:17.279 not saying that there's not global warming. That there is, 0:53:17.840 --> 0:53:19.879 but I mean it's kind of funny again, way a 0:53:19.920 --> 0:53:22.160 point here, but I had to go out a number 0:53:22.160 --> 0:53:25.799 of times during the rain. Nobody's out. It's like on 0:53:25.840 --> 0:53:28.279 the East Coast, you tell people I didn't leave the 0:53:28.280 --> 0:53:31.480 house because it was raining. They would have no idea 0:53:31.640 --> 0:53:34.879 if it was snowing maybe, but here it's raining. People 0:53:34.920 --> 0:53:35.840 are staying home. 0:53:36.600 --> 0:53:38.600 Yeah, and fantasy they don't know how to drive in 0:53:38.640 --> 0:53:41.359 the rain. Yeah, lots as durable as the East Coast 0:53:41.360 --> 0:53:42.360 people with this stuff. 0:53:50.360 --> 0:53:54.919 So you were in business school, you get a gig 0:53:54.920 --> 0:53:58.600 at an advertising agency, you speak with this woman you 0:53:58.760 --> 0:54:03.560 know who's in Europe and you drop out? How hard? 0:54:03.600 --> 0:54:05.680 You know, Listen, the nature of being good in school 0:54:05.840 --> 0:54:09.239 is perseverance, staying the course. You go to college, you 0:54:09.239 --> 0:54:11.360 go to graduate school, and all of a sudden you 0:54:11.440 --> 0:54:14.400 jump the track. I mean, how hard a decision was that? 0:54:14.480 --> 0:54:15.600 What'd your parents say? 0:54:16.320 --> 0:54:18.800 It was so easy? You know, you got to remember, 0:54:18.800 --> 0:54:20.600 you may remember of the era was like this is 0:54:20.640 --> 0:54:27.239 now nineteen seventy one, seventy two. Freedom was in the air. 0:54:27.760 --> 0:54:29.680 Every time you listen to a song is about going 0:54:29.719 --> 0:54:32.200 down a highway or hitting the road. I remember always 0:54:32.200 --> 0:54:35.480 just listening all that time to Joni Mitchell's International Adventures 0:54:35.480 --> 0:54:37.040 in Blue, and I'm thinking I get part of that. 0:54:37.120 --> 0:54:38.600 I mean, every time I go to the movies, it's 0:54:38.600 --> 0:54:42.520 like I'm seeing walk about or and I'm alienated in 0:54:42.600 --> 0:54:46.160 my work. And the idea that I'm going to spend 0:54:46.200 --> 0:54:50.440 my precious time selling fucking toilet paper. That was like 0:54:50.480 --> 0:54:53.280 a line too far. You know, I was already annoyed 0:54:53.280 --> 0:54:57.120 when they had me on Gi Joe, But now toilet paper. 0:54:57.239 --> 0:55:01.040 I just and then this woman made me this ears proposition. 0:55:01.719 --> 0:55:05.440 Quit your job, fuck it, you know you'll do something. 0:55:05.840 --> 0:55:08.360 Come with me, Let's go on an adventure. Let's go 0:55:08.440 --> 0:55:11.600 on an adventure. Let's hitchhike down to all the way 0:55:11.640 --> 0:55:15.720 down to Morocco across the Sahara Desert. And I said, oh, yeah, 0:55:15.960 --> 0:55:18.880 that sounds fantastic. I was on a plane like a 0:55:18.880 --> 0:55:21.960 week later, and I was gone for a year, and 0:55:22.239 --> 0:55:25.360 it was like the defining year of my life, essentially, 0:55:25.640 --> 0:55:28.960 and I really wasn't worried like you would be today. 0:55:29.040 --> 0:55:30.759 Like someone was asking me that I got to go 0:55:30.800 --> 0:55:33.120 to the book party tomorrow night and it's going to 0:55:33.120 --> 0:55:34.640 be a lot of young people, and said, you know, 0:55:34.680 --> 0:55:37.400 your book could be inspiring to young people, because today 0:55:37.440 --> 0:55:40.040 young people they all have these panic attacks and they 0:55:40.080 --> 0:55:42.560 have depression, and they're afraid to take moves, and they're 0:55:42.840 --> 0:55:44.719 stuck in their ways and they think if they do 0:55:44.760 --> 0:55:46.800 this or do that, they're never going to get hired again. 0:55:47.280 --> 0:55:49.840 And tell them it ain't true. And it's hard to 0:55:49.880 --> 0:55:52.640 tell them because the situations are different and everyone's different. 0:55:52.680 --> 0:55:56.160 But for me, I never I mean I was never 0:55:56.280 --> 0:55:59.279 chasing Big Bucks and I wanted to. I was very 0:55:59.360 --> 0:56:02.600 much under the influence of the beats. I was in 0:56:02.680 --> 0:56:05.960 the countercultural flow. The idea that I was even in 0:56:05.960 --> 0:56:09.640 an ad agency. Kind of irritated me a bit, but 0:56:10.000 --> 0:56:12.640 I had saved some money. I figured I'd do it 0:56:12.680 --> 0:56:15.200 for a year. I had a plane ticket that was 0:56:15.239 --> 0:56:17.600 good for exactly a year. I came back in exactly 0:56:17.640 --> 0:56:20.480 the last day, and I would see what I found 0:56:20.480 --> 0:56:23.560 and maybe, oh, new doors would open. And it was 0:56:23.600 --> 0:56:26.839 the most valuable year to do it. And admittedly it 0:56:26.880 --> 0:56:28.880 was a good time to do it. In that time. 0:56:29.360 --> 0:56:34.239 You know, you can go anywhere. Iran and Lebanon, those 0:56:34.280 --> 0:56:37.680 were like party places. I mean, the world is a lot, 0:56:38.080 --> 0:56:41.799 you know, more fucked up now. So I never didn't 0:56:41.840 --> 0:56:43.640 cross my mind not to do it. It did I 0:56:43.680 --> 0:56:45.719 told my parents because they I had already spent a 0:56:45.800 --> 0:56:47.719 year off before I took this job. I got out 0:56:47.760 --> 0:56:51.040 of graduate school and I was a bartender or everywhere, 0:56:51.400 --> 0:56:54.120 and I learned that trade and moving around. I had. 0:56:54.719 --> 0:56:57.360 I had it in my bone somehow, and it was 0:56:57.400 --> 0:57:03.000 about I'd rather trade experience for money, and I figured 0:57:03.000 --> 0:57:05.280 I could always come back. I'm like, I'm thinking myself 0:57:05.280 --> 0:57:08.399 as like a jazz sportet. I could improvise my way 0:57:08.400 --> 0:57:11.000 into something or other. I'm not going to starve to death, 0:57:11.800 --> 0:57:13.640 and I'm not going to think I'm like in a 0:57:13.719 --> 0:57:18.400 formal orchestra and I have to go on some straight 0:57:18.520 --> 0:57:21.800 line that some conveyor belt that other people were doing. 0:57:22.480 --> 0:57:24.320 And it was in the air. I mean, I wasn't 0:57:24.360 --> 0:57:27.120 the only guy. I mean America, people would quit and 0:57:27.160 --> 0:57:32.360 go to somewhere in Vermont and northern California to communes 0:57:32.400 --> 0:57:36.040 and like make furniture whatever they're doing. But in Europe 0:57:36.600 --> 0:57:38.880 people would like to hit the road, like they had 0:57:38.880 --> 0:57:40.800 this thing, the hippie trail, you know, all through all 0:57:40.800 --> 0:57:44.960 these lower cost countries in Africa and in Asia. It 0:57:45.040 --> 0:57:50.280 was exhilarating. That was fantastic, you know, And I wanted 0:57:50.320 --> 0:57:52.600 to stay. That's why I started this business. I wanted 0:57:52.640 --> 0:57:54.200 to stay and live out there. I'd stay there for 0:57:54.240 --> 0:57:57.560 eight years. I said, this is like I lived so 0:57:57.800 --> 0:58:00.960 vividly and I feel so alive here. Why would I 0:58:01.000 --> 0:58:04.160 want to, you know, go back. I almost love being 0:58:04.200 --> 0:58:05.720 in a place where I felt no one would ever 0:58:05.760 --> 0:58:08.800 find me. Here. I'm going to, like, you know, kind 0:58:08.800 --> 0:58:11.280 of figure my way out. I'm learning a little language, 0:58:11.320 --> 0:58:15.400 make some friends, and it's a good challenge. I don't know, 0:58:16.480 --> 0:58:19.600 Wanderluss whatever it is it was, but it was exhilarating. 0:58:20.480 --> 0:58:24.120 This clothing company. Was it a light bulb that went 0:58:24.160 --> 0:58:26.360 off in your head when you were there seeing things 0:58:26.760 --> 0:58:29.520 or was it more of the reverse. This is the 0:58:29.560 --> 0:58:31.680 lifestyle I want. How can I support it? 0:58:32.800 --> 0:58:35.720 Well, I'll tell you. I am. After I was traveling 0:58:35.720 --> 0:58:37.240 with this woman for a couple months, she had to 0:58:37.240 --> 0:58:39.040 go back for a job, so I kept going. I 0:58:39.160 --> 0:58:42.600 hitchhiked all over Africa and I at one point I 0:58:42.680 --> 0:58:44.840 landed in Greece and I go to This is like 0:58:44.920 --> 0:58:48.320 nineteen seventy two. So the night they broke into the watergate, 0:58:48.600 --> 0:58:51.680 I landed in Michinos. And then it wasn't like some 0:58:51.960 --> 0:58:55.320 you know, overly tourists at Greek Island. I was beautiful. 0:58:55.360 --> 0:58:57.840 I thought I was stepping into a postcard. And they 0:58:57.840 --> 0:59:02.240 had this beach there, this naked beach called Paradise Beach, 0:59:02.640 --> 0:59:05.320 which now is a big nightclub. But then it was 0:59:05.360 --> 0:59:07.360 like these two guys had at taverna and I was 0:59:07.400 --> 0:59:10.800 in there one day and I see this little girl, 0:59:11.120 --> 0:59:13.360 not a little girl, she's a woman, young woman, and 0:59:13.520 --> 0:59:17.360 she was selling all these kind of beachy clothes to 0:59:17.840 --> 0:59:20.720 German and tourists and so forth, and I got to 0:59:20.720 --> 0:59:23.000 see her. Everone was like a frenzy. She had them 0:59:23.000 --> 0:59:25.919 in these trunks and I had Indian deities painted on them, 0:59:26.480 --> 0:59:29.640 and she was making them fortune. And I went up 0:59:29.640 --> 0:59:32.000 to her afterwards. I said, that was really something. What's 0:59:32.040 --> 0:59:33.640 the story. Where do you get all this stuff? She say, well, 0:59:33.640 --> 0:59:36.160 I've been living in Katmandu for four years and I 0:59:36.240 --> 0:59:38.920 design and make my own clothes. I do all this 0:59:38.920 --> 0:59:41.000 stuff and then I pack it up in these trunks 0:59:41.240 --> 0:59:44.280 and I take it overland from the Pole through India, Pakistan, 0:59:44.360 --> 0:59:46.880 I ran Turkey, and I end up in Italy and 0:59:47.600 --> 0:59:50.680 Greece and sell it right to the customers, her own 0:59:50.680 --> 0:59:54.560 little vertical, integrated like enterprise. And I live in katman 0:59:54.600 --> 0:59:57.000 Do I have a fantastic house. I have servants, I 0:59:57.000 --> 1:00:01.120 throw parties. I go surfing in Sri Lanka. I ride 1:00:01.160 --> 1:00:04.479 horses in Afghanistan. India is the greatest show on earth, Tom, 1:00:04.520 --> 1:00:08.560 you really should go. So I said, Wow, that's fantastic. 1:00:08.640 --> 1:00:11.280 So that kind of set set me to go to India. 1:00:11.760 --> 1:00:14.560 I wanted. It was a very spiritual center in those days, 1:00:14.560 --> 1:00:17.800 and I started thinking, if she's doing that, and I've 1:00:17.840 --> 1:00:20.160 seen all this crappy clothing that was being made in 1:00:20.240 --> 1:00:24.160 Morocco and cheap stuff from India. What if I toned 1:00:24.160 --> 1:00:26.680 it up a bit. I knew nothing about this business, 1:00:26.760 --> 1:00:28.680 mind you, But if I, let say, I got a 1:00:28.680 --> 1:00:30.680 designer and we could make stuff that was of higher 1:00:30.800 --> 1:00:33.640 quality because the cost differences were great, air freight was 1:00:33.720 --> 1:00:37.480 just beginning. I could sell it to coholesale stores and 1:00:37.560 --> 1:00:40.040 boutiques which were now beginning to be this new thing. 1:00:40.200 --> 1:00:43.880 Everyone's opening these boutiques, and I could give it a shot. 1:00:43.960 --> 1:00:46.520 And you know, and I would always think, well, that 1:00:46.600 --> 1:00:48.640 way I could live in I'll get a house in India. 1:00:48.760 --> 1:00:51.720 I'll live in house in India, and I'll find some 1:00:51.760 --> 1:00:54.400 partners who I could trust and be good, and we 1:00:54.440 --> 1:00:57.520 could make something for five dollars in New Delhi and 1:00:58.440 --> 1:01:00.200 put it on a plane in twenty four hours later, 1:01:00.200 --> 1:01:02.400 I could sell it for twenty five dollars in Manhattan. 1:01:03.200 --> 1:01:05.840 And I basically did that. It ended up being the 1:01:05.880 --> 1:01:08.040 hardest job I ever had in my life, and it 1:01:08.120 --> 1:01:10.800 was very satisfied. I was a millionaire. I mean it is, 1:01:10.920 --> 1:01:13.440 I had a partner, and next thing I know, I'm 1:01:13.440 --> 1:01:16.840 a fucking My parents thought I was crazy, but it was. 1:01:17.240 --> 1:01:19.600 We really did really well. We'd be in vogue in 1:01:19.640 --> 1:01:24.760 women's Wear Daily and Mademoiselle magazine, and it was a 1:01:24.800 --> 1:01:28.040 lot of work. We had cash flow problems. You know, 1:01:28.360 --> 1:01:32.840 it got more difficult, but we grew every year. And 1:01:32.920 --> 1:01:35.560 I imagine, Bob, I imagine this is the life for me. 1:01:35.600 --> 1:01:37.520 I didn't want to be a big garmento, but I 1:01:37.560 --> 1:01:39.920 would always be available to take these side trips, like 1:01:40.400 --> 1:01:42.760 I would round up people in Afghanistan. I'd rent a bus, 1:01:42.840 --> 1:01:45.280 we'd all go on some kind of adventure. I would think, 1:01:45.640 --> 1:01:47.480 this is what I'm going to do. This is so 1:01:48.880 --> 1:01:51.840 it's so exotic and so real, and I'm living a 1:01:51.920 --> 1:01:54.680 life that no one at home could imagine. And then 1:01:54.720 --> 1:01:57.080 it all came crashing down. So I had to reinvent 1:01:57.160 --> 1:01:59.520 myself again, and I ended up like in a really 1:01:59.520 --> 1:02:02.320 safe heart. We're at a lucky time, and you know, 1:02:02.400 --> 1:02:04.480 timing is everything. The job I got at the company 1:02:04.480 --> 1:02:06.360 that would become MTV, if I had been there a 1:02:06.400 --> 1:02:09.240 month later or a month earlier, I wouldn't have gotten it. Now. 1:02:09.280 --> 1:02:11.080 I just happened to show up when they said we 1:02:11.120 --> 1:02:12.680 got to hire a lot of people who don't have 1:02:12.720 --> 1:02:15.400 any experience in television, for which I was a primer, 1:02:16.120 --> 1:02:17.160 a perfect candidate. 1:02:18.400 --> 1:02:22.560 You mentioned this Afghanistan renting a bus And there are 1:02:22.560 --> 1:02:26.760 a couple of other times with the same behavior in 1:02:26.800 --> 1:02:30.280 the book. Are you like the ring leader type? Are 1:02:30.280 --> 1:02:33.120 you say, Okay, this is what we're doing. We're getting 1:02:33.160 --> 1:02:35.520 everybody together and you're the cheerleader and you take them. 1:02:35.680 --> 1:02:36.720 Were those anomalous? 1:02:38.640 --> 1:02:40.320 I wouldn't do that a few times? You know? I 1:02:40.320 --> 1:02:42.680 mean there was a really I had a really great 1:02:42.680 --> 1:02:45.280 group of friends there, and I just thought that it 1:02:45.360 --> 1:02:46.880 was a big thing in the north of the country 1:02:46.880 --> 1:02:49.840 every New Year's which for them is like the Spring 1:02:49.880 --> 1:02:53.800 Equinox March twenty one. So I rented a bus and 1:02:53.880 --> 1:02:55.880 I loaded up with people and you know, we kind 1:02:55.880 --> 1:02:58.360 of split some expenses and I took out, rented this hotel, 1:02:58.400 --> 1:03:00.760 we all pay for our rooms, and we took off 1:03:00.760 --> 1:03:02.920 on this big road trip just like you know, eighteen 1:03:02.960 --> 1:03:05.760 hour journey up through the Hindukush Mountains and back down 1:03:05.880 --> 1:03:09.000 and Steven's Piscashi game. I meet the governor of the 1:03:09.600 --> 1:03:13.400 province and vices to the palace and shows. You know, 1:03:13.760 --> 1:03:16.080 they had a whole thing there for their New year celebration, 1:03:16.240 --> 1:03:18.400 and we looked like we looked like we were off 1:03:18.400 --> 1:03:21.440 of Jimi Hendrix's album cup. You know, everybody is dressed 1:03:21.520 --> 1:03:24.760 up in shawls and all this habitdash Ree and these 1:03:24.760 --> 1:03:29.160 girls who were designers. It was a great gang. And 1:03:29.720 --> 1:03:32.520 people who kind of had been bidden by the same 1:03:32.520 --> 1:03:34.840 bug as myself, who couldn't be They thought living in 1:03:34.920 --> 1:03:37.800 Kabble was like fantastic. It was like this fantasy we 1:03:37.800 --> 1:03:41.360 were living that nobody else knew anything about. It was 1:03:41.920 --> 1:03:42.920 it was a magic time. 1:03:43.600 --> 1:03:46.280 To what degree have you run into those people, the 1:03:46.360 --> 1:03:50.240 pre MTV, the wanderlust people. Have you run into them 1:03:50.600 --> 1:03:52.280 or kept up with them later in life? 1:03:53.240 --> 1:03:59.440 Yeah? My designer Jill Lumpkin, who you wrote about in 1:03:59.440 --> 1:04:03.400 Your Peace, she still lives in Bangalore. It's not called Belarub. 1:04:03.560 --> 1:04:05.400 I mean, they've changed the name, but she's still living 1:04:05.440 --> 1:04:10.360 in India. Fifty years later. The guy who was my 1:04:10.520 --> 1:04:15.240 partner's nephew, We were his mentor. He became a real 1:04:15.360 --> 1:04:18.840 estate maven, building big apartment buildings and hotels at a 1:04:18.880 --> 1:04:21.200 private jet. He was doing better than anybody. He gave 1:04:21.280 --> 1:04:23.640 Jill an apartment in Bangalore, like a three bedroom apartment 1:04:23.680 --> 1:04:26.000 in a modern complex with a pool and a gym. 1:04:26.120 --> 1:04:30.480 It's like living somewhere in you know, somewhere in the States. 1:04:30.520 --> 1:04:33.000 She still lives there, has her social Security check wire 1:04:33.080 --> 1:04:36.120 to India every month, and she couldn't be happier to 1:04:36.200 --> 1:04:36.880 still be there. 1:04:37.240 --> 1:04:37.440 I was. 1:04:37.520 --> 1:04:39.200 I usually worried about it if she would adjust to 1:04:39.280 --> 1:04:42.040 life there, But she's out on me. And there would 1:04:42.080 --> 1:04:46.200 be other people like even now, some of my closest 1:04:46.240 --> 1:04:49.560 friends are from my second round in Afghanistan. These people 1:04:49.560 --> 1:04:52.360 that I would meet, like who were in Cobbled during 1:04:52.400 --> 1:04:58.440 the who were war journalists, you know, Richard Engel or 1:04:58.720 --> 1:05:01.440 Dexter Filkins, these guys who were kind of stars to me. 1:05:01.480 --> 1:05:03.560 They were like the rock stars to me in a way, 1:05:04.000 --> 1:05:07.560 who were out there and I admired what they did. 1:05:07.720 --> 1:05:09.720 We still kind of hang out and we're all still 1:05:09.720 --> 1:05:12.560 in touch, and there's like someone gets married from this 1:05:12.640 --> 1:05:15.080 group and everybody goes, and it's like a reunion. I 1:05:15.200 --> 1:05:18.760 just just this fellow I knew, Oza Mahmed, who was 1:05:18.800 --> 1:05:22.920 this American guy of Pakistani descent. He got a he 1:05:22.960 --> 1:05:26.280 won a Pulitzer Prize New York Time bureau chief in 1:05:26.320 --> 1:05:30.200 Afghanistan and then bureau chief in Mexico City, and he 1:05:30.280 --> 1:05:32.800 got married and Lisbon and everybody went. It was like 1:05:32.800 --> 1:05:34.680 a reunion of the good old the good old days 1:05:34.680 --> 1:05:39.720 in the war zone of you know, twenty ten to fifteen. Yeah, 1:05:39.720 --> 1:05:40.919 those were heady times too. 1:05:41.560 --> 1:05:44.680 Okay. Tom Rush is a friend of mine and he 1:05:44.840 --> 1:05:47.720 mentions this old girlfriend. And the funny thing about it is, 1:05:48.120 --> 1:05:51.520 anybody else would say, oh, I had this old girlfriend whatever. 1:05:52.080 --> 1:05:55.920 Not only is it Jill, It's always Jill Lumpkin of course, 1:05:55.960 --> 1:05:58.920 which is a unique name. And I've heard all the 1:05:59.000 --> 1:06:02.040 stories her flying back to New York and no regrets 1:06:02.080 --> 1:06:04.600 on the album. Well, all of a sudden she shows 1:06:04.680 --> 1:06:08.800 up in your book. What is so special about this woman? 1:06:09.520 --> 1:06:11.600 Well, first of all, you got to realize because I 1:06:11.640 --> 1:06:14.960 was reading, I get online this paper from a Monacito, 1:06:15.680 --> 1:06:18.240 Montecito journal, whatever it is. I see that Tom Rush 1:06:18.480 --> 1:06:23.120 and Judy Collins are playing tonight right at the Libero 1:06:23.280 --> 1:06:27.439 Theater in Santa Barbara. I'm saying, wow. And I've heard 1:06:27.520 --> 1:06:30.000 him on your podcast, and I was always an admirer room. 1:06:30.080 --> 1:06:32.600 He was the first musician I ever really met. When 1:06:32.640 --> 1:06:34.200 I was in college. I did a show and I 1:06:34.240 --> 1:06:38.880 booked him. I was sort of an entrepreneur. And anyway, 1:06:39.880 --> 1:06:42.400 what's so special about Jill? Well, at the time, Jill 1:06:42.600 --> 1:06:46.640 was like this real beauty she was working at Maxis 1:06:46.720 --> 1:06:49.720 Kansas City in New York with this other woman who 1:06:49.760 --> 1:06:51.480 was a matress. They worked the back room. And the 1:06:51.520 --> 1:06:55.560 other one was Helen Martin, who that wasn't her name 1:06:55.600 --> 1:06:58.440 at the time. She married Bryce Martin, the artist, and 1:06:58.480 --> 1:07:00.400 she's now an artist herself. So that two of them 1:07:00.400 --> 1:07:05.920 were these high cheekbone thin waf looking model like really 1:07:06.000 --> 1:07:08.600 cool chicks, really right out of the boat. You know. 1:07:08.600 --> 1:07:11.160 You look up Bohemian in the dictionary and it's them. 1:07:11.840 --> 1:07:14.720 And she had this cool aura about her. I mean, 1:07:15.600 --> 1:07:20.240 as I said in the book, she was like the coolest, 1:07:20.680 --> 1:07:22.880 freest spirit I'd ever met in my life. I mean, 1:07:22.920 --> 1:07:24.920 she just didn't care. And through her I met all 1:07:25.000 --> 1:07:30.000 kinds of interesting characters. And in both Cobblin and Delhi, 1:07:30.640 --> 1:07:33.040 she had a tendency. You know, she was very social, 1:07:33.680 --> 1:07:35.960 she was very beautiful. Tom Russe really had a thing 1:07:36.000 --> 1:07:39.000 about her. Evidently they still communicate. She calls them Tommy, 1:07:39.520 --> 1:07:43.080 Tommy's in touch this and that, you know. Now she 1:07:43.200 --> 1:07:46.240 was going out with some guy from Pentangle, remember them. 1:07:46.960 --> 1:07:49.920 Pentager was one of those kind of gypsy bands in 1:07:49.960 --> 1:07:52.920 the Irritations liming with that dude Swasties. 1:07:52.480 --> 1:07:54.200 Brute Yane people. 1:07:55.640 --> 1:07:57.800 She had a thing for this guy, you know she 1:07:58.360 --> 1:08:02.120 But we were together for shit eight years seven and 1:08:02.160 --> 1:08:04.920 now six seven years, and you know we never were 1:08:04.960 --> 1:08:08.560 an item ourselves, but I always enjoyed her, and she 1:08:08.800 --> 1:08:12.040 was a magnet for interesting people. And yeah, her and 1:08:12.080 --> 1:08:16.200 Tom Rush were He was really taken with her. She was, 1:08:16.920 --> 1:08:18.639 I mean, she still is beautiful, but I mean now 1:08:18.680 --> 1:08:21.280 she's like my age. I mean, you know, she's getting 1:08:21.280 --> 1:08:26.920 herself a security check wired to India, and you know, 1:08:27.040 --> 1:08:29.920 I'd love to have been there and seen Tom Rush 1:08:29.920 --> 1:08:32.640 play tonight. I met He'd never remember. I think I 1:08:32.680 --> 1:08:35.920 met him in nineteen sixty four or five, but he 1:08:36.040 --> 1:08:37.880 was a striking character in those days. 1:08:38.800 --> 1:08:42.719 So in the book, you say, I have this idea, 1:08:42.760 --> 1:08:46.439 I'm going to sell slightly more upskilled than the usual 1:08:46.920 --> 1:08:50.439 item to boutiques. Then all of a sudden, you're selling 1:08:50.439 --> 1:08:55.160 to Bloomingdale's Involved. That doesn't happen by accident. How did 1:08:55.160 --> 1:08:55.960 all that happen? 1:08:56.840 --> 1:08:59.680 Well, we had good stuff, and I had contacts. I mean, 1:08:59.680 --> 1:09:03.320 I this girl Sidney Bachmann from Martha's Vineyard where I 1:09:03.400 --> 1:09:06.599 was a bartender and my partner had a house there. 1:09:06.760 --> 1:09:09.360 The guy who became my partner and Sydney was the 1:09:09.400 --> 1:09:12.000 head of the fashion office, which like a key position 1:09:12.479 --> 1:09:15.240 at the key retailer of the era, and she loved 1:09:15.280 --> 1:09:17.519 what we did to the point where she would give 1:09:17.560 --> 1:09:19.479 me stuff say, you know, basically, knock this off and 1:09:19.520 --> 1:09:21.840 I'll get a whole bunch of it. So we were 1:09:21.880 --> 1:09:24.559 always Bloomingdale's was always our biggest customer, but we also 1:09:24.600 --> 1:09:28.360 sold to Bendel's, which was another like powerhouse fashion forward operation, 1:09:29.200 --> 1:09:31.880 Macy's and you know, major stores, but a lot of 1:09:31.920 --> 1:09:34.960 it was in you know, there was a real boutique 1:09:35.400 --> 1:09:39.920 store kind of you know, there was a lot of them, 1:09:39.960 --> 1:09:41.160 and they We used to have a thing called the 1:09:41.200 --> 1:09:44.920 Boutique Show at the old McAlpin Hotel, which was like 1:09:45.000 --> 1:09:47.519 some kind of Renaissance fare that would happen twice a 1:09:47.560 --> 1:09:49.439 year and you would go and you would be able 1:09:49.439 --> 1:09:52.760 to Celtics. People had stores in Florida or California or 1:09:52.840 --> 1:09:55.559 what have you. So it was hard work. I set 1:09:55.600 --> 1:09:58.160 up a showroom in New York, hire someone to run it, 1:09:58.200 --> 1:10:00.560 and we have buyers come in and we were I 1:10:00.600 --> 1:10:04.360 knew women who worked at these as fashion editors, so 1:10:04.600 --> 1:10:08.759 I could get I had more than an average chance. 1:10:08.760 --> 1:10:11.080 It's like getting a record on the radio. I had 1:10:11.120 --> 1:10:13.920 more than an average chance of getting some editorial coverage 1:10:13.920 --> 1:10:16.519 in Vogue or Mademoiselle or Glamour or one of those. 1:10:16.680 --> 1:10:21.080 Essence and buyers would come in and everyone's always looking for, like, 1:10:21.680 --> 1:10:24.400 what's the cool new place that hasn't been ruined yet 1:10:24.400 --> 1:10:27.479 tourism wise, what's that place? Well, what's a cool new 1:10:27.479 --> 1:10:29.880 company that no one knows anything about. It's sort of 1:10:29.960 --> 1:10:32.599 under the radar, but they're doing something really good. And 1:10:32.640 --> 1:10:37.080 we were that for a while. So that's how, you know, 1:10:37.120 --> 1:10:39.400 we kind of boosted our sales. It was through connections 1:10:39.439 --> 1:10:41.960 I had and the product that was good, and the 1:10:41.960 --> 1:10:46.360 word of mouth, and you know, we went we went viral. 1:10:46.439 --> 1:10:57.840 Bob Okay, did you know how to run it and 1:10:57.880 --> 1:11:00.439 how to price it because you'd been to business school? 1:11:01.720 --> 1:11:03.920 Yeah, that helped a lot. I mean, my skills helped 1:11:03.920 --> 1:11:05.479 a lot there. You know, we used to have a 1:11:05.600 --> 1:11:09.200 thing of whatever our landed cost was. If you pay 1:11:09.280 --> 1:11:11.280 some for four dollars, by the time you pay the 1:11:11.320 --> 1:11:14.439 tariff in the air freight, it's like six dollars. Well, 1:11:14.479 --> 1:11:17.040 I'll sell it for twelve dollars, knowing that the retail 1:11:17.040 --> 1:11:20.360 will probably sell it for twenty four dollars. But you know, 1:11:20.439 --> 1:11:23.160 the business as we got bigger, got more complicated because 1:11:23.160 --> 1:11:25.480 when you sell to big stores, they take a discount. 1:11:25.560 --> 1:11:28.560 If you got an agent in la he wants a commission, 1:11:29.120 --> 1:11:31.880 and then people who are in the big stores they 1:11:31.880 --> 1:11:34.240 don't pay it for a long time. So you might 1:11:34.280 --> 1:11:37.640 be a millionaire on paper, which we were, but you 1:11:37.640 --> 1:11:41.120 don't have any money. It's all tied up in receivables. 1:11:41.280 --> 1:11:45.160 It's all tied up in inventory. Never you're always trying 1:11:45.200 --> 1:11:47.520 to get your head above water. You're sort of basically 1:11:47.560 --> 1:11:49.240 just hanging on. I know that's the thing that a 1:11:49.240 --> 1:11:51.479 lot of people are going through today with Trump's tariffs. 1:11:51.479 --> 1:11:54.160 I mean, things were already bad enough for these folks 1:11:54.200 --> 1:11:57.240 and they're getting squeezed on pricing by competitors now they 1:11:57.320 --> 1:12:02.400 got Yeah. But anyway, I'm having a business background and 1:12:02.439 --> 1:12:05.479 a business orientation was really important and it kind of 1:12:05.520 --> 1:12:07.800 set me apart. We were like the only kind of 1:12:07.840 --> 1:12:11.599 Western people who own companies like this who were doing it, 1:12:11.640 --> 1:12:16.519 which also brought me a bit of an advantage. So yeah, 1:12:16.680 --> 1:12:20.760 I was putting my uh my business degree to good use, 1:12:20.800 --> 1:12:24.960 which which which which was a big solace to my 1:12:25.720 --> 1:12:30.040 beleaguered parents who kept thinking, why are you gonna get 1:12:30.080 --> 1:12:32.080 a job and do something? Because when I came back 1:12:32.320 --> 1:12:34.320 from India after being gone a year and they said, 1:12:34.320 --> 1:12:35.280 what are you going to do? I said, I'm going 1:12:35.320 --> 1:12:37.200 to start a business. You know, I got a box 1:12:37.240 --> 1:12:39.400 of these shirts and I'm going to drive it around 1:12:39.400 --> 1:12:42.439 in a Volkswagen see if there's a market forum. And 1:12:42.479 --> 1:12:45.840 then when we became successful, they were like, wow, I 1:12:45.920 --> 1:12:47.679 had to give it to my parents. They were patient 1:12:47.680 --> 1:12:50.679 and supported me. I was on a mission. 1:12:52.640 --> 1:12:56.679 Okay, So what did you learn in business school? 1:12:59.160 --> 1:13:01.559 Well, you know, you take think first of all, I 1:13:01.600 --> 1:13:05.839 went there. This will sound really dumb. This sounds really dumb. 1:13:06.160 --> 1:13:08.559 So I'm in college. I'm a senior in college. I know. 1:13:09.200 --> 1:13:12.000 You know, the draft now was like forty fifty thousand 1:13:12.000 --> 1:13:15.200 people a month. My deferment's gonna route in June. That 1:13:15.320 --> 1:13:17.680 coming June, when I graduate, I'll be in Vietnam by 1:13:17.720 --> 1:13:19.280 the end of the year. I knew people in the service. 1:13:19.280 --> 1:13:23.519 You're probably in the same situation. So what are you 1:13:23.520 --> 1:13:25.360 gonna do. People gonna go to law school, going to 1:13:25.439 --> 1:13:27.160 go to be a doctor, a dentist. I'm not going 1:13:27.240 --> 1:13:29.160 to be a doctor or dentist or a lawyer. But 1:13:29.360 --> 1:13:32.640 someone says, go to business school. I'm so dumb. I 1:13:32.680 --> 1:13:34.840 didn't even know there was a thing as a business Wait. 1:13:34.880 --> 1:13:38.080 Wait, I graduated. I had no idea there was anything 1:13:38.120 --> 1:13:40.880 such as an NBA, and I didn't know for years. 1:13:42.600 --> 1:13:45.360 Well, I'm the same big thing. So thank god someone 1:13:45.400 --> 1:13:47.160 told me. I said, why don't you go to business school. 1:13:47.200 --> 1:13:49.920 I'm working in a school cafeteria. Go to business school. 1:13:50.240 --> 1:13:53.439 But there's business school, so you know. So I applied 1:13:53.479 --> 1:13:55.439 to NYU. I wanted to go to a city. I 1:13:55.520 --> 1:13:57.360 was in Vermont, and I want to buy to be 1:13:57.479 --> 1:14:00.000 U and NYU. That was it. And I got into NYU. 1:14:00.080 --> 1:14:02.920 You and that that was another thing that really changed 1:14:02.960 --> 1:14:04.840 my life. But what I'd learned there. I had this 1:14:05.320 --> 1:14:09.559 professor Peter Drucker, who was sort of the management guru 1:14:09.640 --> 1:14:11.400 of the era. Put out a lot of books The 1:14:11.400 --> 1:14:13.479 Age of cod Discontinent and everything. He was all about 1:14:13.520 --> 1:14:17.840 innovation and change, and his classes were just fantastic, and 1:14:18.200 --> 1:14:20.280 he real learned the key element of the business of 1:14:20.320 --> 1:14:24.439 the American economy is entrepreneurs creating, correcting with customers, creating 1:14:24.479 --> 1:14:27.400 new things. It isn't creating, it's innovating new things. He said, 1:14:27.920 --> 1:14:30.840 someone's an inventor. They make something out of nothing. An 1:14:30.840 --> 1:14:33.600 innovator is somebody who takes stuff that already exists and 1:14:33.640 --> 1:14:35.680 somehow puts it together in a new way for a 1:14:35.720 --> 1:14:37.679 new market or a new this and that. And I said, 1:14:38.080 --> 1:14:41.120 now that's interesting. You know, that's a place in business 1:14:41.120 --> 1:14:44.400 where it could be creative, It could be interesting, and 1:14:45.120 --> 1:14:47.000 I'm going to keep my eye on that sector. You know, 1:14:47.040 --> 1:14:49.920 it starts small. And the other thing was always always 1:14:49.920 --> 1:14:52.640 look for jobs and sectors that were ascendant. You know, 1:14:53.360 --> 1:14:54.880 you know, you don't want to be, you know, in 1:14:54.920 --> 1:14:57.280 the buggy business. You want to be in something that 1:14:57.400 --> 1:14:59.800 looks to be coming and being ascendant, which later on 1:15:00.000 --> 1:15:03.840 my life was certainly cable television, and at one point 1:15:03.840 --> 1:15:07.000 in my life it became importing. Importing was not a 1:15:07.040 --> 1:15:09.680 big thing in the seventies early seventies. That was, you 1:15:09.720 --> 1:15:12.720 know that the worldwide economic system was just sort of 1:15:12.720 --> 1:15:17.000 adjusting to all this international trade. So I was really 1:15:17.320 --> 1:15:21.599 uh intrigued with him, and I did really well in school, 1:15:21.640 --> 1:15:24.440 even though I had sometimes I had work into the bartender. 1:15:24.479 --> 1:15:26.599 I'd get out of work some nights at three am, 1:15:26.680 --> 1:15:28.320 but I worked my ass off. I didn't want to 1:15:28.320 --> 1:15:31.600 get thrown out of him. If I flunked out, I 1:15:31.640 --> 1:15:35.280 was going to end up in Vietnam, you know. So 1:15:35.680 --> 1:15:37.840 I worked hard at my you know, and I had 1:15:38.360 --> 1:15:41.200 to hustle money because my dad's got I ended up 1:15:41.200 --> 1:15:43.920 getting a scholarship, you know, when I was one semester in. 1:15:44.080 --> 1:15:46.200 But I didn't really have any money to go to school. 1:15:46.200 --> 1:15:50.280 But as you know, then school wasn't that expensive, not 1:15:50.400 --> 1:15:53.519 compared to today. It's unbelievable, you know, for a couple 1:15:53.560 --> 1:15:58.599 thousand dollars a semester. You know, now you know it's 1:15:58.640 --> 1:16:01.479 a whole other thing, which you know impacts everything else. 1:16:01.560 --> 1:16:06.920 But yeah, I liked business school. So I got an MBA, 1:16:07.120 --> 1:16:10.519 and then it was okay, I'm going to take I 1:16:10.640 --> 1:16:13.080 worked for sixteen years, eighteen years of school. I'm going 1:16:13.160 --> 1:16:15.160 to take a year off and drift around and try 1:16:15.160 --> 1:16:16.840 and keep up with some of these buddies I had 1:16:16.880 --> 1:16:19.720 met who had their career path was not to have 1:16:19.760 --> 1:16:22.720 one then their their career paths was never have a 1:16:22.760 --> 1:16:25.479 grown up job, you know, which fits in sync with, 1:16:25.520 --> 1:16:28.360 you know, some of the counterculture sensibility. I was that 1:16:28.479 --> 1:16:31.040 was one of those guys. But I was never like, 1:16:31.600 --> 1:16:34.720 I never got on the spiritual thing in any kind 1:16:34.720 --> 1:16:36.559 of large degree. You know, I wasn't going to India 1:16:36.560 --> 1:16:38.760 to sit in the cave or something with some sadus. 1:16:39.120 --> 1:16:41.080 I was sort of on a reconnaissance mission. 1:16:42.960 --> 1:16:46.880 Okay, this all blows up the answer and an ad. 1:16:47.520 --> 1:16:52.679 You go for a meeting at MTV. How exactly did 1:16:52.720 --> 1:16:56.080 you sell yourself? What was it about what you said 1:16:56.080 --> 1:16:58.080 that they said, okay, we want this guy. 1:16:59.280 --> 1:17:02.840 Well I got this meeting through my brother who worked 1:17:02.840 --> 1:17:05.880 at Columbia Records, and this guy Bob mcgrorty. And this 1:17:05.920 --> 1:17:08.559 is at this point in time that company had just 1:17:08.640 --> 1:17:11.600 started and they had Nickelodeon and the Movie Channel. The 1:17:12.080 --> 1:17:14.600 MTV was still an idea they talked about, but it 1:17:14.640 --> 1:17:17.360 hadn't been approved by the Warner Amex joint venture. They 1:17:17.400 --> 1:17:20.440 hadn't they So I'm just trying to get in anywhere. 1:17:21.040 --> 1:17:22.760 And when I went in to see him, I mean 1:17:22.880 --> 1:17:24.760 I got a hair cut, I got a suit. I 1:17:24.840 --> 1:17:28.120 remember buying a Georgia Armani's suit for like three hundred 1:17:28.120 --> 1:17:31.880 bucks down on Orchard Street. I looked really good. I 1:17:31.920 --> 1:17:34.760 went in and my sale line was, look, you need entrepreneurs. 1:17:34.960 --> 1:17:37.639 I'm an entrepreneur. I know it sounds weird. I lived 1:17:37.680 --> 1:17:39.640 in Asia for eight years, buy and large, but I 1:17:39.680 --> 1:17:43.080 started this company. We're a multimillion dollar company. It kind 1:17:43.080 --> 1:17:46.640 of went under because of a series of unfortunate events. 1:17:47.360 --> 1:17:50.200 But I know all about music. I'm a music fanatic, 1:17:50.400 --> 1:17:53.640 always have been, and I can bring a spirit to 1:17:53.640 --> 1:17:56.559 this place. And I have creative abilities. I worked in 1:17:56.560 --> 1:18:00.439 an ad agency and I had this whole portfolio of 1:18:00.640 --> 1:18:02.320 I really went all out. I said, this is going 1:18:02.360 --> 1:18:04.080 to be a protesy interview. I'm going to try and 1:18:04.120 --> 1:18:06.040 blow it. I want to work at this company. So 1:18:06.080 --> 1:18:08.760 I had this portfolio of all this stuff. We had 1:18:08.800 --> 1:18:12.519 made catalog shots with models and you know, tear sheets 1:18:12.520 --> 1:18:15.680 for magazines, and so I could look legitimate. I want 1:18:15.680 --> 1:18:18.000 to look at the I didn't appear to be legitimate, 1:18:18.040 --> 1:18:19.960 but I want to make myself look legitimately. So it 1:18:19.960 --> 1:18:22.479 goes right away. Oh, this is fantastic. I want you to 1:18:22.479 --> 1:18:26.320 go see my boss right away. And that's John Lack, 1:18:27.080 --> 1:18:29.280 who was the guy who was the originator of the 1:18:29.360 --> 1:18:33.519 idea of MTV. And he said to me, so, what 1:18:33.560 --> 1:18:37.960 were you doing in Afghanistan? You were smuggling drugs And 1:18:38.400 --> 1:18:40.920 he said it like it was a good thing, you know. 1:18:41.280 --> 1:18:43.519 I said, no, not really. I wanted smuggling drugs, but 1:18:43.560 --> 1:18:44.840 I did this and that and the other thing. And 1:18:44.880 --> 1:18:47.200 he says, well, we're looking for people with no experience 1:18:47.200 --> 1:18:50.360 in television. We need people who don't have can't we 1:18:50.360 --> 1:18:53.120 don't need money, so we can't afford someone from NBC 1:18:53.200 --> 1:18:55.800 who's just going to make stuff with some independent operations. 1:18:55.920 --> 1:18:57.800 It's going to be expensive. We need people who can 1:18:57.840 --> 1:19:00.000 think out of the box. I said, well I didn't. 1:19:00.280 --> 1:19:02.720 I haven't even lived in a country that had television. 1:19:03.080 --> 1:19:04.760 But I'm this, that and the other thing. I went 1:19:04.800 --> 1:19:07.080 to the whole dittany. So they offered me a job 1:19:07.080 --> 1:19:09.240 on the spot, and I said, this is going a 1:19:09.240 --> 1:19:11.960 lot better than I thought. You know, I just came 1:19:11.960 --> 1:19:14.160 in for an interview and thinking, well, well think about it. 1:19:14.320 --> 1:19:16.880 Maybe we'll have you back. No, take a job, and 1:19:17.000 --> 1:19:20.160 it's thirty five thousand dollars, take it or leave it. 1:19:20.240 --> 1:19:24.280 I said, come in, count me in. So that's how 1:19:24.280 --> 1:19:27.040 I got the job. And then like four months later 1:19:27.120 --> 1:19:28.200 they hire Bob Pittman. 1:19:28.280 --> 1:19:31.280 Wait wait before you get there, you said, but I 1:19:31.320 --> 1:19:33.320 got to go do something else for a month. 1:19:33.560 --> 1:19:36.200 Right, I did? I know? I know I skipped over 1:19:36.240 --> 1:19:39.000 that part. I said, this is like I'm sitting there 1:19:39.000 --> 1:19:41.360 and going, oh my god. I've been thinking, no one's 1:19:41.400 --> 1:19:43.880 going to hire me. I've been running around in pajamas 1:19:43.880 --> 1:19:46.280 for eight years, and they're going to think, who is 1:19:46.320 --> 1:19:49.800 this guy? He's some drug smuggler. So they hire me, 1:19:50.040 --> 1:19:52.520 and all of a sudden, I feel this wave of legitimacy. 1:19:52.600 --> 1:19:54.479 And I said, well, I'd like to start, but I 1:19:54.520 --> 1:19:56.160 can't really start for a month. He said, that's not 1:19:56.200 --> 1:19:57.840 going to work. We need you right away. We're hiring 1:19:57.880 --> 1:20:00.600 twenty people or something right away. I said, that's not 1:20:00.640 --> 1:20:03.680 going to work. I got a I'm thinking, okay, I 1:20:03.680 --> 1:20:06.200 got a job, and I'm thinking I'm going to go 1:20:06.200 --> 1:20:08.360 into some corporate life and while it may be fun, 1:20:08.400 --> 1:20:10.960 it's going to be nothing like what I left. So 1:20:11.040 --> 1:20:13.519 I want to take like another run on the Marrakesh Express. 1:20:13.560 --> 1:20:16.160 So I grabbed my then girlfriend and I told him 1:20:16.160 --> 1:20:18.840 I couldn't start for a year. For a month, I 1:20:18.880 --> 1:20:21.320 had to do some things. He said, well, I can't 1:20:21.320 --> 1:20:23.519 wait a month. Look, if you want to take off 1:20:23.520 --> 1:20:26.320 a month, do it, but the job may not be 1:20:26.360 --> 1:20:28.920 here if you come back. But if that job's not here, 1:20:28.960 --> 1:20:32.560 there'll probably be something else. So I split to Marrakesh 1:20:32.600 --> 1:20:35.160 with my girlfriend and we roamed around Morocco for a 1:20:35.160 --> 1:20:37.799 couple of weeks. And I came back and I remember 1:20:37.840 --> 1:20:42.040 I entered the building on I think it was no 1:20:42.160 --> 1:20:44.200 I went back. Yeah, I went back, and the job 1:20:44.280 --> 1:20:46.160 was available. It wasn't a job I wanted. They put 1:20:46.160 --> 1:20:49.560 me in a room where they stored soda and was 1:20:49.800 --> 1:20:53.760 It was Saint Patrick's Day in nineteen eighty, ten years 1:20:54.400 --> 1:20:56.639 to the day from when I went to the Fillmore 1:20:56.920 --> 1:21:00.599 West and saw the Jefferson airplane with the Joshua light show, 1:21:00.880 --> 1:21:04.080 and I saw music videos being I mean I saw 1:21:04.080 --> 1:21:07.400 a video being made the old fashioned way by those dudes, 1:21:07.439 --> 1:21:10.840 and I saw the power of music being linked up 1:21:10.840 --> 1:21:13.559 with video some kind. But anyway, I started off, and 1:21:13.600 --> 1:21:17.479 then they had me doing sales for a while, and 1:21:17.520 --> 1:21:20.360 then they hired a Bob Pittman, who was he's twenty 1:21:20.360 --> 1:21:22.479 one years old or twenty two years old. He's running 1:21:22.640 --> 1:21:25.080 the biggest radio station in New York, having run the 1:21:25.080 --> 1:21:28.800 biggest one in Chicago. He's like this long haired, one 1:21:28.840 --> 1:21:32.679 eyed hippie dude who a sweet talker. He was working 1:21:32.720 --> 1:21:35.280 with don Imus, and they hired him to kind of 1:21:35.320 --> 1:21:38.599 be the point person to develop the concept of MTV 1:21:38.720 --> 1:21:41.559 into a real channel, and he was looking to get six, 1:21:41.680 --> 1:21:44.800 seven eight people to be on the first team. So 1:21:44.840 --> 1:21:46.880 I went to see him saying, I'm your man, this 1:21:46.920 --> 1:21:48.599 is why i came to the company in the first place. 1:21:48.680 --> 1:21:52.240 I've seen music videos. I'm like nuts about this idea 1:21:52.360 --> 1:21:54.120 is the big best idea in the world. You got 1:21:54.120 --> 1:21:57.200 to hire me. I'll work my ass up for you. Meanwhile, 1:21:57.240 --> 1:22:00.400 I'm like six or seven years older than him. I'm 1:22:00.439 --> 1:22:04.519 like the only old guy. I'm like thirty three. So 1:22:04.720 --> 1:22:08.960 he starts the same thing. He says, well, were you 1:22:09.040 --> 1:22:11.680 smuggling hashi Ish because that was a big thing of 1:22:11.720 --> 1:22:14.479 the day. I go, not really, I wasn't really smuggling 1:22:14.479 --> 1:22:17.040 hash He says not really. He says that means you were. 1:22:17.640 --> 1:22:19.760 That means you were right. He kind of trapped me, 1:22:20.360 --> 1:22:22.880 so he says, you're hired. So he hired me to 1:22:22.880 --> 1:22:24.680 be the head of marketing. So it was me and 1:22:24.800 --> 1:22:29.240 John Sykes and Piskuy, Fred Cyber, Carolyn Bigger. There was 1:22:29.240 --> 1:22:30.840 a handful of us. They were all shoved us into 1:22:30.920 --> 1:22:34.479 the Sheridan Hotel, into these hotel rooms where you know, 1:22:34.520 --> 1:22:37.120 We're just it's like a like like the kind of 1:22:37.120 --> 1:22:39.800 startup you'd see in the internet. One hero, everyone's eating 1:22:39.840 --> 1:22:43.320 pizza and you know, we had like eight people and 1:22:43.400 --> 1:22:45.920 four phones and they had call waiting and we had 1:22:46.000 --> 1:22:49.479 no money, but we were we were Everyone was like 1:22:49.479 --> 1:22:51.320 a music fanatic. A lot of them came out of 1:22:51.439 --> 1:22:56.639 either radio or record companies, and you know, we all 1:22:56.640 --> 1:22:59.000 thought this was the greatest idea in the world. And 1:22:59.320 --> 1:23:01.479 the people were I was like the highest paid guy 1:23:01.880 --> 1:23:04.240 other by no sychs is making thirty grand a year 1:23:04.800 --> 1:23:07.559 and they would have worked for less money. It's funny, Bob, 1:23:07.560 --> 1:23:10.000 but you know, everyone talks about money, money, money these days. 1:23:10.040 --> 1:23:13.200 None of these people were really concerned with money. We 1:23:13.240 --> 1:23:15.760 were on a you know, on a crusade to do 1:23:15.880 --> 1:23:18.120 something that sounded really exciting and if it worked out, 1:23:18.120 --> 1:23:20.120 maybe we'd make some money. No one was imagining it 1:23:20.120 --> 1:23:22.400 would be a multi billion dollar business one day. 1:23:23.040 --> 1:23:26.479 Okay, just to go back. You had nothing to do 1:23:26.800 --> 1:23:30.680 during that month. You just wanted another month live in 1:23:30.720 --> 1:23:32.480 the hippie lifestyle. 1:23:33.439 --> 1:23:35.599 Yes, yeah, I know, I'm athetic. 1:23:35.840 --> 1:23:38.240 Well wouldn't you normally say I can't believe I got 1:23:38.240 --> 1:23:40.680 this job? I mean, what was for you it. 1:23:40.640 --> 1:23:43.080 Turned out to be. It was a blessing in disguise 1:23:43.160 --> 1:23:45.479 because I when I came in, I'm now a level lower. 1:23:46.200 --> 1:23:49.960 So the frontline guys who were higher than me, they 1:23:50.000 --> 1:23:52.920 all ultimately got fired because they were out in front 1:23:53.080 --> 1:23:55.559 and they're making threshold mistakes in a new business, and 1:23:55.640 --> 1:23:58.000 you know, sooner or later, he's gone. He's gone, he's gone, 1:23:58.280 --> 1:24:00.680 and I'm down just below the swing of the and 1:24:00.720 --> 1:24:03.320 I'm seeing what's going on. I've seen, I'm learning stuff, 1:24:03.360 --> 1:24:05.840 and you know, I realized I'm learning from their mistakes, 1:24:06.200 --> 1:24:08.960 and I get elevated back to where I would have been, 1:24:09.280 --> 1:24:11.720 and then I ultimately go up to MTV. So if 1:24:11.720 --> 1:24:14.000 I had stayed and taken that higher job, maybe I 1:24:14.000 --> 1:24:15.640 would have made some dumb mistakes and they would have 1:24:15.680 --> 1:24:18.639 dusted me as well. So it all worked out. There's 1:24:18.680 --> 1:24:21.240 that improvised life thing, you know, you take a chance 1:24:21.280 --> 1:24:23.600 and you never know. But I followed my heart. I 1:24:23.640 --> 1:24:26.439 wanted to I wanted to go back to Morocco. That's 1:24:26.439 --> 1:24:28.840 where my you know, I was. It was like my 1:24:28.920 --> 1:24:31.280 old It's like going back to your old lover, you know, 1:24:31.400 --> 1:24:34.240 I mean, it was still there, that that third world thing, 1:24:34.280 --> 1:24:37.799 and I wanted another. I wanted another run at it 1:24:37.880 --> 1:24:38.640 got the best of me. 1:24:38.840 --> 1:24:40.920 So what was Pittman's special sauce. 1:24:42.960 --> 1:24:46.160 He was a great bullshitter. He was smart as a whip. 1:24:47.040 --> 1:24:50.280 He had the Southern drawl. You know. I think he 1:24:50.360 --> 1:24:52.800 was the son of a minister or something. He came 1:24:52.800 --> 1:24:56.479 from Mississippi, and he would impress the hell out of 1:24:56.479 --> 1:24:58.920 older people because here he is, this young guy. He's 1:24:58.920 --> 1:25:01.479 wearing a suit, he's got long hair, he's got one eye. 1:25:02.000 --> 1:25:04.479 He's programmed all these big radio stations. He says, I 1:25:04.520 --> 1:25:06.799 got my finger on the pulse of the youth culture, 1:25:06.840 --> 1:25:09.920 and they believe them. And he could talk like no 1:25:09.960 --> 1:25:11.519 one could talk. I caught him the other day. I 1:25:11.560 --> 1:25:14.240 was I was going through Instagram reels or whatever the 1:25:14.240 --> 1:25:16.160 hell it is, and there's Bob Pittman. He's talking at 1:25:16.160 --> 1:25:19.920 some conference in San Francisco. The same you know, he could. 1:25:19.960 --> 1:25:23.599 He was like remind me of Shane Smith, same fucking lineus. 1:25:23.880 --> 1:25:26.720 You know. He was just a smooth talking dude, much 1:25:26.720 --> 1:25:29.719 different than Shane. But he making making something bad sound 1:25:29.760 --> 1:25:32.320 really good and people are eating it up because it 1:25:32.360 --> 1:25:35.599 comes out and sounds right. And he was a good manager. 1:25:36.120 --> 1:25:38.479 He was a good manager and he was cheap. He 1:25:38.479 --> 1:25:40.519 wouldn't give us any money to do anything because there 1:25:40.520 --> 1:25:42.720 wasn't really a lot of money to give. And he 1:25:42.800 --> 1:25:44.920 became a great friend of me, and he was my mentor. 1:25:45.040 --> 1:25:48.080 For God's sake. He's the young guy. I'm the old 1:25:48.120 --> 1:25:51.000 I'm the old man. And I never told anybody there 1:25:51.120 --> 1:25:53.240 like I had an MBA. That would be like, you know, 1:25:53.360 --> 1:25:55.920 like I had cancer or something, because all these people 1:25:56.000 --> 1:25:58.960 kind of come from the creative side pretty much. I 1:25:59.680 --> 1:26:02.320 was just like some dude from Afghanistan who was a 1:26:02.760 --> 1:26:03.920 rug smuggler. 1:26:12.040 --> 1:26:14.200 So why exactly did Pittman leave? 1:26:15.360 --> 1:26:17.640 Well, the bloom was off the roads, he thought, and 1:26:17.720 --> 1:26:20.960 others thought. We had a great run, and we went. 1:26:21.000 --> 1:26:26.000 When our revenue got to like seventy million dollars, Viacom 1:26:28.640 --> 1:26:31.600 Steve Warner Ames was having problems. There was the Atari 1:26:31.640 --> 1:26:33.200 thing if you can remember that right, you know. 1:26:33.120 --> 1:26:34.799 They were losing the crashed. 1:26:35.280 --> 1:26:37.240 We got to sell some stuff. We got to sell 1:26:37.280 --> 1:26:38.920 like some of these joint ventures. We got to get 1:26:38.920 --> 1:26:40.200 out of this. We got to raise some money. So 1:26:40.240 --> 1:26:42.720 we were put on the block and there was a 1:26:42.720 --> 1:26:46.560 company called via Com then that had just bought showtime. 1:26:46.720 --> 1:26:48.960 And then we went to Forestmen Little, that Bob new 1:26:49.000 --> 1:26:51.760 Teddy Forceman. There was a big lbo operation that was 1:26:51.760 --> 1:26:54.639 a big thing in the sixties or seventies or eighties 1:26:54.640 --> 1:26:57.519 if you remember. It leveraged buyouts. So we worked out 1:26:57.520 --> 1:26:59.639 a thing where we could buy the employees could buy 1:26:59.680 --> 1:27:02.960 the copy in conjunction with money from Forestman Little, and 1:27:03.000 --> 1:27:05.439 we put a bit on the table and then we 1:27:05.439 --> 1:27:07.160 were going to get it. We were going to be 1:27:07.160 --> 1:27:11.160 independent and free. And then Teddy forst. Then Steve Ross 1:27:11.160 --> 1:27:16.400 got on some helicopter he flew to East Hampton and 1:27:16.439 --> 1:27:18.080 when he got off he decided he was in sell 1:27:18.160 --> 1:27:20.320 to the other guy. So like an extra fifty million dollars. 1:27:20.320 --> 1:27:22.640 So we were a shit out of luck. And the 1:27:22.680 --> 1:27:25.000 new guys who came in weren't all that pleasant. They 1:27:25.000 --> 1:27:28.600 were like proper business people. And Bob, I think, felt deflated. 1:27:28.760 --> 1:27:30.840 You know, I'm out of here. The blooms off the rose, 1:27:30.880 --> 1:27:34.519 the party's over, so he les Garland Sykes. A lot 1:27:34.520 --> 1:27:37.880 of people left, and I'm thinking, where the hell they going? Man, 1:27:37.920 --> 1:27:40.439 this is still the greatest idea around. What else are 1:27:40.479 --> 1:27:42.080 you going to find us better than this? They went 1:27:42.120 --> 1:27:45.920 off to work at CIA or some promotion thing and 1:27:46.240 --> 1:27:49.280 I think Bob was running Morton Downey Show, some kind 1:27:49.320 --> 1:27:52.000 of stuff like that. He had a deal with MCA. 1:27:52.080 --> 1:27:55.360 Everybody was everyone was desired by Hollywood people because they thought, 1:27:55.360 --> 1:27:58.200 for some reason, the MTV executives had some kind of 1:27:58.200 --> 1:28:00.880 special sauce. So I stayed where I was and Bob 1:28:00.960 --> 1:28:04.800 made me president on the way out. So now I'm in. 1:28:05.160 --> 1:28:06.840 Now I'm on top of the pile. And I had 1:28:06.840 --> 1:28:11.839 to reconstitute everybody. And we were not impressed with the 1:28:11.840 --> 1:28:14.680 new people, the new people who took us over, and 1:28:14.800 --> 1:28:18.080 they came in to tell us, uh, you know what 1:28:18.200 --> 1:28:20.280 was what. I had a management retreat going on in 1:28:20.360 --> 1:28:23.439 Montalk at this place called Gurney's, and they came out 1:28:23.439 --> 1:28:27.679 with a helicopter. Now, the only silver lining of this deal, 1:28:27.760 --> 1:28:31.000 these guys getting a deal, was that the paltry amount 1:28:31.040 --> 1:28:33.880 of stock options that were distributed would vest and be 1:28:33.960 --> 1:28:36.519 paid out if someone bought the company. So we were 1:28:36.560 --> 1:28:38.360 looking around, you know, we had like ten thousands. You know, 1:28:38.439 --> 1:28:40.000 you're not going to make, you know, make forty fifty 1:28:40.040 --> 1:28:42.160 thousand dollars, but that was a lot of money to us. 1:28:42.520 --> 1:28:44.320 So they came in to talk to us. They set 1:28:44.400 --> 1:28:47.320 up a little microphone in the ballroom and they start 1:28:47.360 --> 1:28:50.880 off saying, well, we've talked to lawyers and we don't 1:28:50.920 --> 1:28:52.760 think we have to pay out your stock options. This 1:28:52.880 --> 1:28:55.880 is like the opener, you know. It was nothing like hey, 1:28:55.920 --> 1:28:58.000 you guys have done a great job, we see a 1:28:58.040 --> 1:29:00.720 great future ahead. We can't wait to work with you. No, 1:29:00.880 --> 1:29:03.040 and like fuck you. And then they you know, they 1:29:03.080 --> 1:29:05.880 talked a little bit about other stuff, and they left 1:29:05.880 --> 1:29:10.040 in their helicopters, and then we proceeded to trash the barroom, 1:29:10.080 --> 1:29:13.560 tip over fish tanks, tip over palm trees, bus glasses. 1:29:13.600 --> 1:29:16.799 It was like a gang of like like led Zeppelin. 1:29:16.840 --> 1:29:20.840 It infected us and anyway, then some of the Redstone 1:29:20.880 --> 1:29:26.639 took over the company and and displaced those guys, and 1:29:26.880 --> 1:29:29.120 I was off to work with him. He hired a 1:29:29.120 --> 1:29:29.639 guy named. 1:29:29.479 --> 1:29:33.160 Okay, wait before before you go there, Bob makes you president. 1:29:34.120 --> 1:29:36.519 Were you an impostor learning on the gig or did 1:29:36.560 --> 1:29:37.360 you know how to do it? 1:29:38.040 --> 1:29:40.880 Oh? I was an impostor. I mean I had been around. 1:29:40.920 --> 1:29:42.680 I think even it was still a small company, I 1:29:42.680 --> 1:29:44.720 could do it. But then the new guy said, hey, 1:29:44.760 --> 1:29:46.599 you're not a good enough president. We're going to give 1:29:46.640 --> 1:29:49.360 you a co president. Because I don't think that, you know, 1:29:49.439 --> 1:29:52.639 advertisers are going to like trust you, or you didn't 1:29:52.680 --> 1:29:54.760 have the credibility to deal with advertisers. You were not 1:29:54.880 --> 1:29:57.040 that school in that part of the business. So now 1:29:57.120 --> 1:30:00.240 I have a co president and you know, this is 1:30:00.680 --> 1:30:02.400 the guy I got along with him. Okay, but it 1:30:02.439 --> 1:30:05.120 was a bit deflating. But meanwhile I was learning the 1:30:05.160 --> 1:30:09.759 ropes on my half of the business. And then Sunder 1:30:09.840 --> 1:30:13.080 came along. He took it over in a big takeout battle, big, big, 1:30:14.360 --> 1:30:18.519 big battle. It was, you know, well chronicled on Wall Street. 1:30:18.960 --> 1:30:22.280 And he hired Frank Biondi, this great guy, who immediately 1:30:22.320 --> 1:30:25.240 made me the CEO and had me fire the other guy, 1:30:25.840 --> 1:30:28.599 which I did, and then I was off with those 1:30:28.640 --> 1:30:31.000 guys for you know, I was the CEO of MTV 1:30:31.080 --> 1:30:34.360 Networks for seventeen years, and you know, we blew it 1:30:34.439 --> 1:30:37.600 up into a multi billion dollar business. It was fantastic 1:30:37.680 --> 1:30:40.519 because it wasn't like I was doing the same boring thing. 1:30:41.080 --> 1:30:43.759 Things would come along and we'd be a whole different, 1:30:43.800 --> 1:30:46.559 new kind of company. We started going international. We started 1:30:46.680 --> 1:30:50.759 nick Toons Animation, finding these weird like animators and setting 1:30:50.800 --> 1:30:52.559 them up to do business and set up a little 1:30:52.600 --> 1:30:56.799 animation studio. Going international was a big We launched other networks, 1:30:56.840 --> 1:31:00.400 Comedy Central among them, so it was always new, it 1:31:00.439 --> 1:31:03.800 was always interesting, and I viewed my job as my 1:31:04.000 --> 1:31:09.880 job was to keep the entity, this creative nucleus protected 1:31:10.360 --> 1:31:14.480 because I had this management team that was amazingly talented, 1:31:14.520 --> 1:31:16.720 and we were just filled with people who didn't want 1:31:16.760 --> 1:31:19.200 to work in normal companies. We had the worst dress 1:31:19.240 --> 1:31:24.800 group of people in any Manhattan office building. And my 1:31:25.000 --> 1:31:27.920 job was basically to try and keep this as a 1:31:27.960 --> 1:31:31.120 creative first company and to develop a culture there that 1:31:31.160 --> 1:31:34.240 would be seen as a competitive advantage by others. And 1:31:34.320 --> 1:31:38.000 I made the heads of our networks creative people, not 1:31:38.200 --> 1:31:40.640 business people, which would have been the normal process in 1:31:40.680 --> 1:31:43.519 the business world. We gave up half our key jobs 1:31:43.560 --> 1:31:46.559 to women, but we had like Judy McGrath and John 1:31:46.680 --> 1:31:51.680 Sykes and Jerry Laiborne and Herb Scannal and others, you know. 1:31:51.760 --> 1:31:54.439 So I thought that if you had a creative person 1:31:54.520 --> 1:31:57.360 running a network, the people who worked there would see 1:31:57.400 --> 1:32:00.479 that we're a creative company at heart and create activity 1:32:00.479 --> 1:32:03.760 and taking risks is our key aptitude. And everyone was 1:32:03.800 --> 1:32:06.280 always encouraged to try and push the envelope, do stuff 1:32:06.280 --> 1:32:07.600 we didn't have a lot of money, so they had to 1:32:07.640 --> 1:32:09.680 kind of do it in an innovative way, and for 1:32:09.720 --> 1:32:12.320 a long time it worked. We cranked out, you know, 1:32:12.840 --> 1:32:17.920 we grew for seventeen years, four quarters each year. Every 1:32:18.160 --> 1:32:20.680 quarter we were up double digits on the top and 1:32:20.720 --> 1:32:23.800 bottom line. So it really went from seventy million dollars 1:32:23.800 --> 1:32:28.320 a year to a few billion dollars a year in revenue. 1:32:28.479 --> 1:32:31.000 And when really kicked in was Nickelodeon and when we 1:32:31.040 --> 1:32:34.559 made the move to invent our own cartoons, basically create 1:32:34.560 --> 1:32:37.760 our own cartoon characters rather than licensed looney tunes and 1:32:37.800 --> 1:32:40.719 stuff like that. And then we can had consumer products. 1:32:40.880 --> 1:32:44.479 And then Sumnder bought Paramount, so we were able to 1:32:44.520 --> 1:32:48.160 make movies and so again we're reincarnated into a whole 1:32:48.160 --> 1:32:49.960 other kind of business. So you learn a bit about 1:32:49.960 --> 1:32:54.800 the movie business. It was. It was a great ride. 1:32:55.200 --> 1:32:57.120 Just got to go back to the party out in 1:32:57.200 --> 1:33:01.519 mod talk. You're in charge and they're trashing the place. 1:33:02.320 --> 1:33:04.680 Well, I was second in charge. Pittman was still there. 1:33:04.760 --> 1:33:07.080 This was his swan soa and he actually started it. 1:33:07.800 --> 1:33:10.520 He started throwing the glass. He started throwing the glasses, 1:33:10.840 --> 1:33:13.320 and then everybody said, well, hey man, he's throwing the glasses. 1:33:13.360 --> 1:33:15.759 Let's throw the glasses. Then let's they had these palm 1:33:15.800 --> 1:33:18.120 trees like in these pots and they're being thrown over 1:33:18.240 --> 1:33:22.040 and fish tank and really, I mean it was quite 1:33:22.040 --> 1:33:24.479 a scene to see. But everyone was so pissed, like 1:33:24.520 --> 1:33:27.320 we had this little wonderland, we had a plan to 1:33:27.320 --> 1:33:29.240 be out on our own, and now it's not just 1:33:29.400 --> 1:33:32.840 not happening, but it seems like the new guys are like, 1:33:33.160 --> 1:33:35.360 you know, not exactly our kind of people. 1:33:36.960 --> 1:33:43.439 Okay, so tell me about Sumner. Was Sunder just a 1:33:43.560 --> 1:33:47.880 bull who took chances? Was he a brilliant businessman who 1:33:47.880 --> 1:33:50.720 built this empire? Who was Sumner Redstone? 1:33:53.360 --> 1:33:57.360 That's a good question. He was a complicated man. He 1:33:57.400 --> 1:34:01.479 inherited a driving theater business from his father and then 1:34:01.680 --> 1:34:03.599 built it up. He was really the kind of guy 1:34:03.600 --> 1:34:06.760 who started building the multiplexus. This is, you know, at 1:34:06.800 --> 1:34:10.680 the time when theater business was quite big, and he 1:34:10.760 --> 1:34:13.559 had dreams at sixty five or so, which was older 1:34:13.560 --> 1:34:16.479 in those days than it is nowadays, to build an internet, 1:34:16.520 --> 1:34:19.320 you know, to build a real company, big company. So 1:34:19.760 --> 1:34:23.880 he started taking pieces of eye. He used to. He 1:34:23.920 --> 1:34:27.080 built his fortune when he was an exhibitor by going 1:34:27.120 --> 1:34:29.360 to movie screenings, you know. So he'd like see a 1:34:29.360 --> 1:34:34.040 screening of Star Wars and he said, it's a good movie. 1:34:34.040 --> 1:34:35.840 So he called his broker and buy a lot of 1:34:36.080 --> 1:34:40.120 stock in Fox. And you know, I mean, he'd buy 1:34:40.160 --> 1:34:41.760 a lot of stock at a time and he would 1:34:41.800 --> 1:34:44.960 be he was able to parlor himself into being a millionaire. 1:34:45.160 --> 1:34:48.120 It wasn't like he had inside information, but he had 1:34:48.160 --> 1:34:50.960 sort of inside vibes as to what was happening, and 1:34:51.000 --> 1:34:53.840 he placed big bets in the stock market and made 1:34:53.920 --> 1:34:56.280 himself rich. And then he decided he wanted to build 1:34:56.320 --> 1:35:00.120 a he wanted to become a mogul and start, and 1:35:00.120 --> 1:35:03.400 he started with Us, and then he just kept doing 1:35:03.439 --> 1:35:05.200 more deals. I mean, as soon as he got us 1:35:05.280 --> 1:35:09.640 under control, that was taken over Paramount and then and 1:35:09.720 --> 1:35:12.120 each time with another heaping of debt and then taken 1:35:12.160 --> 1:35:14.400 over Paramount. Well, now I'm going to take over CBS. 1:35:14.400 --> 1:35:17.840 So he m l Karmezan work out a deal. So 1:35:17.920 --> 1:35:20.280 now it's CBS is in there, and they bring along 1:35:20.320 --> 1:35:22.479 some other you know, they had Simon and Schuster and 1:35:23.280 --> 1:35:26.280 you know, other businesses, and you know, then it was 1:35:26.280 --> 1:35:28.559 always a mess to try and integrate all of this. 1:35:30.040 --> 1:35:33.000 And all away. 1:35:33.160 --> 1:35:35.880 I mean, he was a litigious guy. He was a 1:35:35.960 --> 1:35:41.040 lawyer by training, and he was always had always had 1:35:41.080 --> 1:35:44.480 his ears up for anyone he thought might be unfairly 1:35:44.560 --> 1:35:47.880 treating us. Like. He was an anti trust lawyer. So 1:35:47.920 --> 1:35:51.160 he always thought like John Malone and TCI, they were 1:35:51.160 --> 1:35:53.519 the big, the big bohemoths of the day, and like 1:35:53.960 --> 1:35:56.960 normally you couldn't get distribution for your network unless you're 1:35:56.960 --> 1:36:00.840 willing to give, like Bob Johnson to give or discover give, give, 1:36:01.120 --> 1:36:03.040 give him. It's sort of like what Trump's doing. Now, 1:36:03.080 --> 1:36:06.040 give him a piece of the business and you get distribution. 1:36:06.720 --> 1:36:09.120 He never wanted to play that game, so he would sue, 1:36:10.360 --> 1:36:13.519 you know, he sued, Uh, he sued John Malone, He 1:36:13.600 --> 1:36:17.439 sewed TCI against my wishes. He made lawsuits like a 1:36:17.479 --> 1:36:20.400 profit center. He brought in Philippe Dumont, which is a 1:36:20.479 --> 1:36:23.280 state lawyer, to kind of aid in a bet the 1:36:23.680 --> 1:36:28.080 legal you know, our legal stance. So he was successful 1:36:28.080 --> 1:36:30.840 at doing. He didn't care. He to suit people and win. 1:36:31.000 --> 1:36:32.720 I mean, he was happy to be the thurd on 1:36:32.800 --> 1:36:36.760 the on the cable golf course. Club didn't bother him 1:36:36.760 --> 1:36:39.479 at all. So he was bold and brave and made 1:36:39.520 --> 1:36:46.200 big moves and he was brilliant, but he he kind 1:36:46.200 --> 1:36:51.560 of desired the limelight. So like Frank Biondi, who was 1:36:51.600 --> 1:36:55.240 a very very able manager who I loved. The guy 1:36:55.360 --> 1:36:58.360 was great. He he understood what we had at MTV 1:36:58.439 --> 1:37:00.320 Networks and he ran it with a really light touch. 1:37:00.320 --> 1:37:04.080 He understood that we were not a traditional, you know division, 1:37:04.200 --> 1:37:06.360 and we were allowed at certain kind of freedoms and 1:37:06.400 --> 1:37:08.800 they didn't really interferce so long as we delivered them mode. 1:37:08.840 --> 1:37:11.960 But when Frank started getting like nice articles in the 1:37:12.040 --> 1:37:14.000 New Yorker or whatever, you know, he was soon gone. 1:37:14.000 --> 1:37:17.240 One day he was gone. And then with Mel, it 1:37:17.360 --> 1:37:19.559 was the same thing. Mel was another really able guy. 1:37:19.600 --> 1:37:21.840 Mel Karminson was a legend in the music business, in 1:37:21.920 --> 1:37:24.880 the radio business. You know, he created Infinity Radio, sold 1:37:24.920 --> 1:37:27.360 at the CBS, somehow worked out to be on the 1:37:27.400 --> 1:37:30.479 top of CBS. You know, he kind of like worked 1:37:30.520 --> 1:37:33.400 his way up and then he took us over and 1:37:33.439 --> 1:37:37.719 he became my new boss. And again, you know, he 1:37:37.720 --> 1:37:39.920 he kind of left us alone as so long as 1:37:39.920 --> 1:37:42.400 we met our financial targets. I like Meil very much. 1:37:43.080 --> 1:37:45.320 He was a real character. But again he was getting 1:37:45.320 --> 1:37:47.800 credit for making move. You know, he was getting credit 1:37:47.800 --> 1:37:49.679 for making a lot of smart moves that he made, 1:37:50.280 --> 1:37:53.719 but Sumner didn't, you know, he was sort of stealing 1:37:53.800 --> 1:37:57.519 the limelight. I think that Sumner desired and Sumner at 1:37:57.560 --> 1:37:59.639 the end of the day, while he started really modestly 1:37:59.680 --> 1:38:02.360 when we started, he would sit back at staff meetings, 1:38:02.400 --> 1:38:04.840 let frank he was kind of like he was kind 1:38:04.880 --> 1:38:07.559 of like learning the business, you know, at these meetings 1:38:07.560 --> 1:38:09.599 and seeing how things really work. And when he got 1:38:09.680 --> 1:38:11.120 to the point where we thought, Okay, now I know 1:38:11.160 --> 1:38:13.479 what I'm doing. You know, I'm going to run the 1:38:13.520 --> 1:38:21.640 whole baby, and you know, he was he didn't have 1:38:21.680 --> 1:38:23.920 a lot of friends. I would notice that anybody who 1:38:24.000 --> 1:38:27.240 got kind of close to him was gone. And I 1:38:27.320 --> 1:38:30.320 kind of kept my distance, and he was always happy 1:38:30.360 --> 1:38:33.559 to see me. And I tried to get him engaged 1:38:33.560 --> 1:38:38.200 in a lot of things, and he would support us, 1:38:38.640 --> 1:38:40.320 you know, he was a supportive guy. But in the 1:38:40.400 --> 1:38:44.120 at the end of the day, he was he got 1:38:44.160 --> 1:38:48.479 upset with me. I I I began, I didn't want 1:38:48.479 --> 1:38:52.200 to be the CEO. I mean I didn't, but he 1:38:52.640 --> 1:38:55.479 I remember clearly one day we we had had a 1:38:55.560 --> 1:38:58.680 joint venture with HBO to run Comedy Central. After we 1:38:58.720 --> 1:39:01.600 had these so called comedy wars, and we had a 1:39:01.600 --> 1:39:03.519 board meeting one day. I remember walking down Broadway as 1:39:03.520 --> 1:39:05.160 a spring day, the sun was out, and I'm with 1:39:05.200 --> 1:39:07.519 Jeff Buchus, who became a good friend. He was running 1:39:07.640 --> 1:39:09.920 HBO at the time. He said, you know, you and me, 1:39:10.000 --> 1:39:12.679 we got the best jobs in town. This is these 1:39:12.760 --> 1:39:15.200 jobs are fantastic. We get to do all these things 1:39:15.280 --> 1:39:19.280 we love. We work with interesting people, businesses are vibrant. 1:39:19.880 --> 1:39:22.360 He says. The only problem is one day they're going 1:39:22.400 --> 1:39:24.040 to ask us to run these things and we're going 1:39:24.080 --> 1:39:27.639 to be in a whole different ballgame. And he was right. 1:39:27.720 --> 1:39:30.720 He ended up running Time Waterer. I ended up running Viacom. 1:39:30.800 --> 1:39:34.679 But you know I took it over at a point 1:39:34.680 --> 1:39:38.960 in time when the digital companies were really beginning to 1:39:38.960 --> 1:39:43.280 make inroads into the legacy media companies, and you know, 1:39:43.280 --> 1:39:45.960 we had this sort of how do we change direction? 1:39:46.200 --> 1:39:49.439 And stock prices were stalled and you can only jack 1:39:49.560 --> 1:39:52.120 up your price, which someonder was obsessed with stock price, 1:39:52.560 --> 1:39:56.599 whereas Rupert Murdoch his nemesis, would fly around the world 1:39:56.600 --> 1:40:03.960 and know how well his operations ran. Uh, some are 1:40:04.040 --> 1:40:06.120 really looked at the stock price like that would like 1:40:06.120 --> 1:40:10.760 the dog, the tail wagging the dog. So I fell 1:40:10.760 --> 1:40:15.760 in a bit of disfavor and he fired me. And 1:40:15.800 --> 1:40:18.280 that was it? 1:40:18.479 --> 1:40:21.200 Was it really that? You know, the company was split 1:40:21.280 --> 1:40:27.320 into and less had good numbers. The division that you 1:40:27.680 --> 1:40:31.040 ran the report wasn't as good, even though we both 1:40:31.160 --> 1:40:37.280 know those are manipulated numbers. Was it inevitable or an 1:40:37.320 --> 1:40:39.720 irrelevant of whether you wanted to keep the job? If 1:40:39.760 --> 1:40:42.240 you could repeat it, would you play it any differently? 1:40:44.640 --> 1:40:47.639 Now? I thought we were making the right moves. I mean, 1:40:47.680 --> 1:40:50.559 we had been thwarted into the real challenge for us, 1:40:50.560 --> 1:40:52.400 for all these kind of media companies is how do 1:40:52.439 --> 1:40:55.880 we how do we face the digital invasion that was 1:40:55.880 --> 1:40:59.000 coming our way? You know, increasingly we were being decimated 1:40:59.000 --> 1:41:02.560 by the yeah Who's and the Googles and the Facebook, 1:41:02.600 --> 1:41:05.360 well not so much Facebook, so I mean that was 1:41:05.400 --> 1:41:06.360 nothing at the time. 1:41:07.040 --> 1:41:07.679 How do we. 1:41:07.560 --> 1:41:09.760 Reinvent ourselves for the digital era? How do we make 1:41:09.800 --> 1:41:12.120 this transition? Because we all, we weren't stupid, we saw 1:41:12.120 --> 1:41:14.559 what was coming. We were coming to this on demand 1:41:14.680 --> 1:41:17.479 streaming sort of model and these it was going to 1:41:17.479 --> 1:41:23.680 be a more open world. And one of the we 1:41:23.760 --> 1:41:27.599 tried to buy. We bought some small websites. We hired 1:41:27.600 --> 1:41:29.760 a digital department trying to find our way around, but 1:41:29.760 --> 1:41:31.920 then decided, you know, we need to really acquire something. 1:41:31.960 --> 1:41:35.720 We're not going to really get there by any kind 1:41:35.760 --> 1:41:37.680 of organic thing, which is what we were used to. 1:41:37.720 --> 1:41:40.120 We weren't used to buying companies and integrating them. We 1:41:40.160 --> 1:41:44.840 did everything ourselves. We grew organically. But we started off. 1:41:44.880 --> 1:41:48.120 We had a meeting with Mark Zuckerberg at Facebook when 1:41:48.120 --> 1:41:50.720 they were doing like nine million dollars a year in revenue. 1:41:50.800 --> 1:41:53.360 He was like twenty years old, and we made an 1:41:53.400 --> 1:41:56.599 offer to buy it, and he turned it down. And 1:41:56.640 --> 1:42:01.679 then we looked at YouTube, which launched in two thousand 1:42:01.720 --> 1:42:08.599 and five, and that was you know, we saw that 1:42:08.640 --> 1:42:14.280 these these digital networks were like this major paradigm shift. 1:42:14.320 --> 1:42:16.640 This was a whole new thing. This is going to 1:42:16.640 --> 1:42:20.800 become like this was going to really really decimate us 1:42:20.800 --> 1:42:24.040 because no longer were you going to be a gatekeeper 1:42:24.560 --> 1:42:28.360 on YouTube. Anybody could upload video, share it, comment on it, 1:42:28.439 --> 1:42:31.320 this or that they could be peer to peer and 1:42:31.640 --> 1:42:33.760 this is sort of going to unfold and evolve to 1:42:33.800 --> 1:42:38.080 be the future. And sure enough we were the short 1:42:38.120 --> 1:42:42.519 form Kings and along comes YouTube and we looked at YouTube, 1:42:43.600 --> 1:42:46.400 and it was fascinating to see what they were doing. 1:42:46.400 --> 1:42:49.599 But they were doing things that the traditional media people 1:42:49.600 --> 1:42:53.759 thought were illegal. You know, they were taking copyrighted material 1:42:53.800 --> 1:42:57.680 and uploading it for free. And while some companies like 1:42:57.960 --> 1:43:00.839 you know, SNL would use they would put up Lazy Sunday. 1:43:00.880 --> 1:43:02.960 That was an early thing that sort of went viral. 1:43:04.720 --> 1:43:07.640 It was viewed as a content infringement machine by the 1:43:07.760 --> 1:43:10.799 Viacom board. You know, if we buy it, hat, everybody's 1:43:10.840 --> 1:43:13.479 gonna sue us because they can't sue YouTube now because 1:43:13.479 --> 1:43:15.639 they don't have any money. They're not gonna Maybe they're 1:43:15.680 --> 1:43:18.360 going to get sued. But you know, this can't happen. 1:43:18.400 --> 1:43:20.760 This is not right. This is these digital guys are 1:43:20.800 --> 1:43:23.120 just taking away everything for free. We're seeing the same 1:43:23.240 --> 1:43:26.479 argument now with AI Bob. You know, it's the same thing. 1:43:27.120 --> 1:43:29.880 They can't do it. The laws will never stand for it. 1:43:30.680 --> 1:43:34.599 So what we had there, because I look now at 1:43:34.640 --> 1:43:37.439 you know, were we too have been able to buy 1:43:37.479 --> 1:43:41.960 YouTube Buyacom, would look a lot different today. But there 1:43:42.000 --> 1:43:44.639 was a couple of things preventing that from happening. Besides 1:43:44.680 --> 1:43:48.040 the disposition of the board, which you could say was 1:43:48.240 --> 1:43:50.479 you know, maybe it's going to work out the kind 1:43:50.479 --> 1:43:53.880 of why you could afford to buy it. You would 1:43:53.880 --> 1:43:56.559 have to show Wall Street sort of immediate results that 1:43:56.600 --> 1:43:58.960 it was going to show some profit, which wasn't going 1:43:59.040 --> 1:44:01.920 to happen, and you would have to fund the infrastructure 1:44:01.960 --> 1:44:05.120 that they've used to develop this amazing machine that we 1:44:05.240 --> 1:44:07.840 all see now and just you're in awe. It's worth 1:44:07.880 --> 1:44:13.000 almost six hundred billion dollars, So you know, in a 1:44:13.040 --> 1:44:15.200 wood of wood of would have should have there was 1:44:15.240 --> 1:44:17.519 a lot of wood. You could dream about it, but 1:44:17.600 --> 1:44:20.320 it was impossible. We couldn't own it and lose money 1:44:20.360 --> 1:44:23.519 for ten years like Google could. So and then I 1:44:23.560 --> 1:44:26.360 tried to buy We looked at MySpace, which was the 1:44:26.400 --> 1:44:30.880 pre eminent social network of the day, and we had 1:44:30.920 --> 1:44:33.760 conversations with them, and they had that was attracting a 1:44:33.760 --> 1:44:36.400 lot of independent bands, and they would get more traffic 1:44:36.439 --> 1:44:39.960 on their little you know, on their site for some 1:44:40.040 --> 1:44:42.160 of our shows, and we get for our own websites 1:44:42.200 --> 1:44:46.960 on the shows. So Rupert Murdoch came in and bought it, 1:44:47.200 --> 1:44:48.960 and that was a bad thing. I mean, it wasn't 1:44:48.960 --> 1:44:52.280 a bad thing because we hadn't really decided we wanted it, 1:44:52.320 --> 1:44:54.719 but for some there it was a bad thing because 1:44:54.800 --> 1:45:00.800 Rupert Murdoch bought it his uh, his chief rise, and 1:45:00.880 --> 1:45:03.559 Rupert started appearing on the covers of all these trade 1:45:03.600 --> 1:45:07.360 magazines as the digital genius, the new digital guy. And 1:45:07.439 --> 1:45:11.160 Sumner was like, you know, not that guy. And he 1:45:11.280 --> 1:45:14.920 thought I had blown that because I was when Rupert 1:45:15.000 --> 1:45:17.160 was buying it over a weekend with no due diligence. 1:45:17.200 --> 1:45:19.040 I was in Hawaii with my two kids and my 1:45:19.120 --> 1:45:22.639 wife for like a week vacation. And he told Charlie 1:45:22.760 --> 1:45:26.960 Rose after he fired me that. Charlie asked him directly, 1:45:27.080 --> 1:45:30.639 was yeah, was a YouTube factor? He goes, yeah, yeah, 1:45:31.080 --> 1:45:34.519 we lost. I hate to lose, Sir Rupert Murdoch. So 1:45:34.680 --> 1:45:40.840 that was one reason. And then you know, we missed 1:45:40.880 --> 1:45:44.400 numbers for a quarter, but then the second quarter, our 1:45:44.560 --> 1:45:48.679 second quarter numbers were fine. We were back on track. 1:45:49.240 --> 1:45:51.879 You know. We were also precluded from the most obvious 1:45:51.920 --> 1:45:54.240 thing for us to turn digital would have been to 1:45:54.520 --> 1:45:57.960 have taken our library of twenty thousand videos and gotten 1:45:58.000 --> 1:46:03.200 the video rights for them, just be one big Vivo. 1:46:03.360 --> 1:46:05.600 You know. We could have set up the architecture to 1:46:05.640 --> 1:46:07.800 do that and video on demand, and we could have 1:46:07.800 --> 1:46:10.519 figured out innovative ways to put it out and program it. 1:46:10.600 --> 1:46:15.400 But the record companies really put their foot down, the 1:46:15.520 --> 1:46:18.960 legal side of the record companies. They felt that MTV 1:46:19.120 --> 1:46:23.320 Networks had built a business on their backs. Nothing was 1:46:23.360 --> 1:46:26.200 ever said about the money we paid them or the 1:46:26.240 --> 1:46:28.439 fact that we made so many of their acts so popular, 1:46:28.479 --> 1:46:31.360 but they didn't want another MTV on the Internet, so 1:46:31.520 --> 1:46:33.479 it was impossible for us to get a hold of 1:46:33.479 --> 1:46:36.560 the key programming form that had, you know, driven a 1:46:36.640 --> 1:46:40.240 large part of our success on the Internet, which was 1:46:40.280 --> 1:46:43.360 a big frustration and a big roadblock. Not to say 1:46:43.360 --> 1:46:47.960 it couldn't have been one day conquered. But then it 1:46:48.000 --> 1:46:50.839 didn't become my problem anymore because I got fired. 1:46:59.320 --> 1:47:04.600 Okay, before you get fired, you were also running Paramount. 1:47:05.000 --> 1:47:08.400 What did you learn about the movie business? And having 1:47:08.479 --> 1:47:11.320 been deep in the trenches, what is your perspective on 1:47:11.360 --> 1:47:12.679 the movie business today? 1:47:15.160 --> 1:47:17.680 Well, I learned that it's a very opaque business where 1:47:17.720 --> 1:47:19.880 it's kind of hard to keep track of who does what, 1:47:20.120 --> 1:47:24.720 and you know, it's even though I learned that the 1:47:24.760 --> 1:47:29.640 feature film is king always on the hierarchy in Hollywood, 1:47:30.160 --> 1:47:33.680 nothing's higher than the movie business. Then came, you know, 1:47:33.720 --> 1:47:37.720 the sort of television business, the premium cable business. Then 1:47:37.760 --> 1:47:41.120 we were sort of at the next level basic cable, 1:47:41.640 --> 1:47:43.360 and then the music business that was like a whole 1:47:43.439 --> 1:47:46.760 other thing. They didn't understand that at all. They didn't 1:47:46.840 --> 1:47:50.160 understand how these music companies were making all this money. 1:47:50.280 --> 1:47:53.599 These guys were the most untraditional businessmen of all were 1:47:53.600 --> 1:47:55.519 in the record business. I found it to be the 1:47:55.560 --> 1:47:58.000 most interesting people and the most fun to be with. 1:47:58.360 --> 1:48:04.320 You know, all these guys scoundrels and clever people and whatever, 1:48:04.400 --> 1:48:06.240 but they all love their they love what they did. 1:48:06.280 --> 1:48:08.799 But in the movie business, you learn that the movie 1:48:08.840 --> 1:48:12.800 studio they take the bulk of the money. They'll find 1:48:12.800 --> 1:48:18.880 out ways in terms of you know, we were we 1:48:18.880 --> 1:48:21.120 were going to try and turn our brands into movies, 1:48:21.200 --> 1:48:24.960 which we did do. Nickelodeon, MTV, VH one had like 1:48:25.280 --> 1:48:30.000 that Ben Stiller movie, zoolanderv VH one. Everyone we made 1:48:30.040 --> 1:48:33.200 like forty movies over course of time and sort of 1:48:33.200 --> 1:48:35.799 sat at the hand of Sherry Lansing who helped us, 1:48:36.200 --> 1:48:40.479 you know, become accomplished movie makers from just being little 1:48:40.479 --> 1:48:43.479 cable weasels. I learned that everybody in my company wanted 1:48:43.479 --> 1:48:46.719 to make movies. You know, all my top creative people 1:48:46.800 --> 1:48:50.120 wanted to go to the movie studios. They wanted them. 1:48:50.160 --> 1:48:52.160 Everyone wants to make a movie. I mean, come on, 1:48:52.200 --> 1:48:54.400 I don't want to work on some Buffkis television show. 1:48:54.400 --> 1:48:56.040 If I have a chance to work on a movie, 1:48:56.200 --> 1:48:58.920 that's great for me. So it was, you know, there 1:48:58.960 --> 1:49:01.559 was a pre we ate of exodus to want to 1:49:01.600 --> 1:49:03.800 do this. But at the end of the day, we 1:49:03.800 --> 1:49:06.160 didn't make much money on movies, even if it was 1:49:06.160 --> 1:49:08.479 on our own ip. You know, we get a fee. 1:49:08.880 --> 1:49:12.280 And then we found out one sunder bought Paramount that 1:49:12.400 --> 1:49:19.240 we were an exclusive producer. In other words, we couldn't 1:49:19.280 --> 1:49:21.519 take if we wanted to make a movie, and they 1:49:21.560 --> 1:49:24.080 said no, we couldn't take it to Sony or Fox. 1:49:25.320 --> 1:49:28.160 So we were sort of the prisoners of Melrose Avenue way. 1:49:28.200 --> 1:49:30.839 It was unusual in the television business, it wasn't unusual 1:49:30.840 --> 1:49:33.040 to have an exclusive deal, but he didn't see a 1:49:33.040 --> 1:49:34.720 lot of that going on in the movie business. So 1:49:34.760 --> 1:49:37.479 that was a big frustration. So always had a little 1:49:38.120 --> 1:49:43.080 friction back and forth. And I'll say, like on the 1:49:43.120 --> 1:49:45.559 Paramount side, they found a lot of our people to 1:49:45.600 --> 1:49:48.680 be kind of arrogant, which was true. It wasn't like 1:49:48.720 --> 1:49:52.160 a perfect match. But we came to a good equilibrium. 1:49:52.320 --> 1:49:55.360 I can't say enough about Sherry Lansing. You know, she 1:49:55.560 --> 1:49:59.000 was gracious and great despite the fact that we often 1:49:59.040 --> 1:50:02.280 did stupid things. But we never got you know, I 1:50:02.280 --> 1:50:04.720 could make more money in a couple hours on television 1:50:04.760 --> 1:50:07.200 I could make on a movie and after absorbing all 1:50:07.240 --> 1:50:10.439 that creative energy. But we had some hit movies and 1:50:10.479 --> 1:50:12.840 it was always exhilarating when it happened. You know. We 1:50:12.840 --> 1:50:15.880 did movies with the Jackass guys, with the South Park guys, 1:50:15.880 --> 1:50:18.639 with Beavis and butt Head. We had movies like Election, 1:50:19.160 --> 1:50:22.799 Napoleon Dynamite. You know, we had a flair for finding 1:50:22.840 --> 1:50:25.879 some good projects. The Twilight series is a good example. 1:50:25.960 --> 1:50:29.240 Some it came to us, or before it came to us. 1:50:29.400 --> 1:50:32.599 We developed it from a book. We developed a script 1:50:32.600 --> 1:50:35.920 for Twilight, and Paramount didn't want to make it. We 1:50:35.960 --> 1:50:38.120 couldn't take it anywhere. It went to Summit. The thing 1:50:38.200 --> 1:50:40.120 went on to make like three or four billion dollars 1:50:40.160 --> 1:50:42.840 in box office. You know what they used to say. 1:50:42.920 --> 1:50:44.880 John Dolson used to say, I don't want to see 1:50:45.800 --> 1:50:49.040 some movie we turned down. Then you guys take somewhere 1:50:49.080 --> 1:50:51.840 else and it's a hit. It'll be embarrassing, you know, 1:50:51.960 --> 1:50:54.799 that kind of that kind of thinking, I would permeate 1:50:54.880 --> 1:50:57.960 it permeate in Hollywood in those days, wasn't just John. 1:50:58.560 --> 1:51:00.960 John was a guy that I was a really tough guy, 1:51:00.960 --> 1:51:04.200 but I really came to respect him. He was He 1:51:04.280 --> 1:51:06.360 really knew his rock and roll, he knew his music. 1:51:06.560 --> 1:51:11.960 He was a funny man. Anyway, we made, like I guess, 1:51:12.000 --> 1:51:16.599 forty movies over the years. They were largely lower budget movies, 1:51:17.680 --> 1:51:21.680 and most of them were profitable. And it was an 1:51:21.680 --> 1:51:24.519 interesting experience, you know, that being you know, have a 1:51:24.600 --> 1:51:28.439 chair in Hollywood. But at one point, yes, when I 1:51:28.479 --> 1:51:32.680 became the CEO of Paramount, reported to me, so now 1:51:32.720 --> 1:51:35.920 I'm like the cable guy, like Dave's aslov I'm like 1:51:35.960 --> 1:51:38.759 the cable guy. I'm in charge of a movie studio, 1:51:39.960 --> 1:51:41.240 which I had never dreamed of. 1:51:41.680 --> 1:51:42.479 So what'd you learn? 1:51:43.320 --> 1:51:45.800 Well, I had learned a lot, you know what. One 1:51:45.800 --> 1:51:48.000 of the first things I did was I got in 1:51:48.040 --> 1:51:52.080 touch with Bob Daily, who, with Terry Simmel, had the 1:51:52.120 --> 1:51:57.360 best run of probably any studio heads in history. And 1:51:57.400 --> 1:51:59.960 I asked Bob Daily to be my mentor and teach 1:52:00.200 --> 1:52:02.799 me the ins and outs, really the ins and outs 1:52:02.840 --> 1:52:05.479 of the movie business that I might not have learned 1:52:05.520 --> 1:52:08.000 just being a producer on the lot for Paramount making 1:52:08.040 --> 1:52:10.559 movies and handing them over to him. So he had 1:52:10.560 --> 1:52:12.519 his own little film school he set up for me, 1:52:13.439 --> 1:52:17.840 and it was good to sort of learn from the 1:52:17.880 --> 1:52:23.040 master how P and L's work, all the financial mechanisms, 1:52:23.080 --> 1:52:26.920 and so I got myself equipped. And then Sherry decided 1:52:26.960 --> 1:52:29.519 that she was going to leave, so I had to 1:52:29.520 --> 1:52:35.599 find a new studio head, and Bob. I had Bob 1:52:35.640 --> 1:52:37.920 interview candidates. I mean, the problem is all the studio 1:52:38.000 --> 1:52:39.719 heads in those days, they used to kind of rotate 1:52:39.760 --> 1:52:43.840 from studio to studio, and it was very rare that 1:52:43.920 --> 1:52:46.120 someone from outside the system would actually take up and 1:52:46.200 --> 1:52:49.360 run a studio. Bob Evans back in the day, you know, 1:52:49.400 --> 1:52:51.320 he was an actor. He ended up running Paramount. I 1:52:51.320 --> 1:52:53.960 had a pretty successful run, I must say. I mean 1:52:54.120 --> 1:52:56.479 some of those movies at Paramount cranked out Love Story 1:52:56.479 --> 1:52:59.960 in the late eighties, late seventies, Love Story, Apocalypse now 1:53:00.120 --> 1:53:02.640 gon All came out under his reign for a guy 1:53:02.680 --> 1:53:04.320 who didn't know what he was doing, and I ended 1:53:04.360 --> 1:53:09.439 up hiring Brad Gray, who was the partner of Berlstein 1:53:09.520 --> 1:53:16.479 Gray to run the studio. And then you know, we 1:53:16.600 --> 1:53:21.360 acquired dream Works. Brad got caught up in this Anthony 1:53:21.400 --> 1:53:26.559 Pelicano scandal, which really sullied his reputation and was a 1:53:26.600 --> 1:53:33.040 big drama for him. And that's where I was when 1:53:33.320 --> 1:53:36.840 I got fired, you know, I mean, I never really 1:53:36.920 --> 1:53:40.320 got a chance to I installed Brad at the studio. 1:53:40.680 --> 1:53:43.080 He was there for a couple of years. He ended up. 1:53:44.160 --> 1:53:48.080 He died at a young age, at fifty nine, a 1:53:48.120 --> 1:53:51.960 couple of years after I left. And that's my story. 1:53:52.920 --> 1:54:00.439 Well, David Geffen implored you to hire Brad Gray. In retrospect, 1:54:01.400 --> 1:54:04.280 did you find that people were doing your a solid 1:54:04.400 --> 1:54:07.599 or everybody had an agenda? You're better off just listening 1:54:07.600 --> 1:54:08.280 to yourself. 1:54:09.880 --> 1:54:12.720 People had an agenda a lot of times. But in 1:54:12.760 --> 1:54:16.719 the case of David, David was someone I had developed 1:54:16.720 --> 1:54:18.519 a relationship. He was the first guy to give us 1:54:18.640 --> 1:54:23.080 videos for MTV. He was the first guy we made 1:54:23.080 --> 1:54:24.840 a movie with. He called me up one day in 1:54:24.880 --> 1:54:27.080 New York. I was it was a Saturday morning. He's 1:54:27.080 --> 1:54:28.880 in LA He calls me like ten o'clock in the 1:54:28.960 --> 1:54:30.559 morning in New York. He says, you know, I saw 1:54:30.600 --> 1:54:33.760 Beavis and butt Head last night. Our first episode ran 1:54:34.320 --> 1:54:36.880 you know whatever, It was at ten o'clock. And it 1:54:36.920 --> 1:54:39.360 wasn't like somebody on his staff handed him a video 1:54:39.400 --> 1:54:42.440 tape and said check this out. I mean, was David 1:54:42.520 --> 1:54:44.960 was on the case. He said, let's make a movie 1:54:44.960 --> 1:54:47.720 with those guys. So so, all right, we'll make a movie. 1:54:47.800 --> 1:54:50.000 He was in butt Head, so he was always a 1:54:50.040 --> 1:54:54.440 source of good advice. And when I was going through 1:54:54.440 --> 1:54:57.040 the exercise of looking for people, it wasn't like he 1:54:57.080 --> 1:54:59.840 implored me. He called me one day and he said, 1:55:00.160 --> 1:55:02.040 was in Bay Route. I remember this. He said, I 1:55:02.120 --> 1:55:04.920 found the guy I think could work, which is Brad Gray. 1:55:04.960 --> 1:55:07.040 Because we had already been through. I had already been 1:55:07.080 --> 1:55:11.000 through all the studio hads I might want to hire, 1:55:11.440 --> 1:55:15.040 like say Stacy Snyder. They all had contracts and other 1:55:15.120 --> 1:55:17.280 people who were sort of on the second rung, they 1:55:17.280 --> 1:55:19.640 weren't really there. And I started thinking, well, maybe we 1:55:19.720 --> 1:55:22.360 look on the outside. Someone who's got the ability to 1:55:22.400 --> 1:55:25.200 deal with talent, who's smart about the business, might not 1:55:25.320 --> 1:55:29.280 necessarily have a pedigree purely have been in a movie studio. 1:55:29.800 --> 1:55:32.440 And David said, you know, maybe Brad's your guy. Brad 1:55:32.520 --> 1:55:36.600 was at the peak of his powers then he had 1:55:36.600 --> 1:55:41.880 the sopranos and he had started turning Perlstein Gray in 1:55:41.920 --> 1:55:43.560 a bit of a studio. He did Bill Mahery had 1:55:43.600 --> 1:55:47.680 a relationship with Gary Shannling. He really had a lot 1:55:47.720 --> 1:55:52.520 of aspirations and energy. And I had a bunch of 1:55:52.520 --> 1:55:55.680 interviews with Bob with the Brad, I sent him to Bob. 1:55:56.640 --> 1:55:58.920 Bob gave me the thumbs up. He really put him 1:55:58.920 --> 1:56:01.320 through the trail. Seemed to be able and whatnot. And 1:56:01.400 --> 1:56:06.880 we started out and he ran into a buzzsaw with Pelicano. 1:56:07.480 --> 1:56:09.640 That was you know, there was two front page stories 1:56:09.680 --> 1:56:14.280 about him and that really knocked him off balance. I 1:56:14.360 --> 1:56:20.600 must say he recovered. But and when I left, he 1:56:20.680 --> 1:56:23.280 was in charge of Paramount, so I hired Brad. 1:56:24.200 --> 1:56:29.800 Okay, you have all this experience. What's your view of 1:56:29.840 --> 1:56:33.040 these businesses today? In your book you say somebody want 1:56:33.080 --> 1:56:36.280 to start a cable channel and you're laughing, And then 1:56:36.320 --> 1:56:39.240 I get emailed that Morgan Roland is starting a field 1:56:39.280 --> 1:56:43.800 and stream channel. The movie business with a twenty five 1:56:43.960 --> 1:56:48.040 straight drama failures. Where's it all going? 1:56:50.480 --> 1:56:53.840 Well, Morgan Wallin should save his money. I mean, he's 1:56:54.080 --> 1:56:56.120 pissing in the wind, wants to start a you know, 1:56:56.360 --> 1:57:01.720 in the cord cutting era where the TV revolution has ended, 1:57:01.760 --> 1:57:04.560 and it's winding down these linear networks. Unless you've got 1:57:04.600 --> 1:57:09.919 some exclusive product that's really unique, like news or sports, 1:57:10.160 --> 1:57:12.480 you know, it's most of this other stuff's all available 1:57:12.480 --> 1:57:16.120 on demand on streaming services. He'd be smart to start 1:57:16.360 --> 1:57:18.520 in a different way other than setting up a linear 1:57:18.600 --> 1:57:24.880 cable network. But now, I mean, it's no one likes 1:57:24.920 --> 1:57:29.720 to see these movie studios disappear. I mean, we saw 1:57:29.720 --> 1:57:33.440 a Fox get gobbled up by Disney. Disney had a 1:57:33.480 --> 1:57:36.520 real smart strategy about going digital, which was doubling down 1:57:36.520 --> 1:57:46.760 and getting more being a really invincible content supplier. And 1:57:47.240 --> 1:57:49.440 you know, now we're looking at the Ellison's coming in 1:57:49.480 --> 1:57:55.480 and buying Paramount. And when I looked at, for example, 1:57:55.760 --> 1:57:58.960 the alternatives for Paramount, it's like my old high school. 1:58:00.120 --> 1:58:01.920 You wanted to end up in good hands. You want 1:58:01.960 --> 1:58:05.360 it to be solved. And they were having tough time 1:58:05.640 --> 1:58:07.360 in the wake of a lot of the bad moves 1:58:07.360 --> 1:58:10.240 that had been made. And here you have David Ellison 1:58:10.800 --> 1:58:16.360 who actually likes movies. He makes movies, and he's good 1:58:16.400 --> 1:58:20.720 at it, and they've made some movies. Had a wayward talent, 1:58:20.760 --> 1:58:23.680 he understands the business. He's got a lot of money, 1:58:24.920 --> 1:58:27.800 and you know, he made a master movie, put Sherry 1:58:27.880 --> 1:58:30.520 Lansing on the board, you know, I mean, you get 1:58:30.560 --> 1:58:34.640 a sense that Paramount's not going to disappear, which is 1:58:34.680 --> 1:58:37.240 good news. I mean, the town doesn't want to see 1:58:37.240 --> 1:58:41.040 another studio disappear. I remember back when we started MTV, 1:58:41.120 --> 1:58:43.640 there was like forty record labels. You remember these days, 1:58:43.920 --> 1:58:46.120 a lot of them started by entrepreneurs and run by 1:58:46.240 --> 1:58:49.960 entrepreneurs who who basically had instincts and tastes, and they 1:58:50.040 --> 1:58:52.320 kind of modeled these labels after their own taste. It 1:58:52.400 --> 1:58:54.560 was a whole different game. Now there's like two and 1:58:54.600 --> 1:58:57.600 a half record companies and a lot of stuff in 1:58:57.640 --> 1:59:01.720 the outer rings, but it's a very different business. And 1:59:01.800 --> 1:59:04.640 now people all over the town are losing their jobs 1:59:04.680 --> 1:59:07.400 and they're thinking, is Ellison going to take over Paramount? 1:59:07.480 --> 1:59:10.360 I don't know, I mean, I know, I know they 1:59:11.040 --> 1:59:15.240 on paper it would make sense for them to do it. 1:59:15.360 --> 1:59:18.120 Which about Paramount buying Warner just to be clear. 1:59:18.040 --> 1:59:20.000 Yeah, it would make sense. I mean they could. They 1:59:20.040 --> 1:59:23.240 could fold up a lot of stuff, save more, you 1:59:23.240 --> 1:59:27.080 know the old arguments, you know, make efficiencies in the 1:59:27.120 --> 1:59:30.600 back office. They could keep the movie brands separate, and 1:59:30.680 --> 1:59:34.760 they'd have more clout and they could compete more avidly, 1:59:34.880 --> 1:59:38.000 but you know, it would mean another movie studio disappears. 1:59:38.360 --> 1:59:41.240 I love I love the area of the forty record companies. 1:59:41.400 --> 1:59:48.000 I thought that was really cool, more interesting. But someone's 1:59:48.000 --> 1:59:52.280 going to get someone's gonna you know. David Zaslov did 1:59:52.320 --> 1:59:56.000 the deal with Warner Brothers because he saw a discovery 1:59:56.120 --> 1:59:58.880 was going to be in sad shapes if they didn't 1:59:58.960 --> 2:00:01.960 latch onto somebody, and he was able to engineer a 2:00:02.000 --> 2:00:04.480 deal with John Malone, whereas they were able to actually 2:00:04.480 --> 2:00:07.800 buy Warner Brothers. It was sort of brilliant in a way. 2:00:09.120 --> 2:00:12.160 But in the meantime, while they're trying to save themselves, 2:00:12.920 --> 2:00:16.480 you know, we're seeing the exhibition business not being great. 2:00:17.480 --> 2:00:19.240 You know, there was I think some hope this summer 2:00:19.280 --> 2:00:21.280 that people would like to go to the theaters, but 2:00:22.400 --> 2:00:24.440 more and more people now have theaters in their homes 2:00:24.440 --> 2:00:28.360 of one form or another. And it's what it was 2:00:28.400 --> 2:00:31.920 the word they're using now, and not affordable. It's part 2:00:31.920 --> 2:00:36.720 of the unaffordability problem going to the movies. So a 2:00:36.720 --> 2:00:38.160 lot of the money has been sucked out of the 2:00:38.200 --> 2:00:41.120 movie business. I don't know what happens, Bob, but it 2:00:41.240 --> 2:00:44.920 seems like more consolidations probably in the wings. It seems 2:00:44.960 --> 2:00:48.320 like the theater exhibition business is going to diminish, and 2:00:48.360 --> 2:00:52.520 it seems like companies that are big are going to survive. 2:00:52.680 --> 2:00:54.720 At the same time, you look around the edges and 2:00:54.760 --> 2:00:57.080 you see, oh, there's creative companies like A twenty four 2:00:57.160 --> 2:01:00.120 and Nion who are like sort of in the moll 2:01:00.240 --> 2:01:04.080 of small movie companies of your where they have good 2:01:04.160 --> 2:01:06.480 tastes and they can find a good movie and market it. 2:01:06.760 --> 2:01:09.240 Within the big system, you still have like Fox search, 2:01:09.440 --> 2:01:13.280 like and create, buy and create a buzz around, you know, 2:01:13.440 --> 2:01:16.400 tasty movies. I've always been a guy who was happy 2:01:16.440 --> 2:01:19.240 to sort of move around the edges rather than be 2:01:19.280 --> 2:01:24.080 in the mainstream, you know, mainstream movie labels. You know, 2:01:24.400 --> 2:01:27.280 it's a high investment business. You got to pay a 2:01:27.280 --> 2:01:29.320 lot of money. With that movie that's out now with 2:01:31.520 --> 2:01:34.800 I'm forgetting the name, it's getting to be that time 2:01:34.840 --> 2:01:39.280 of night. But you know, with the Leonardo DiCaprio and 2:01:39.400 --> 2:01:40.920 Serian Penn, I don't have you seen that. 2:01:41.720 --> 2:01:43.960 No, I haven't. Paul Thomas Anderson movie. 2:01:44.360 --> 2:01:46.520 Yeah, it's good. I mean, it's phil You look at 2:01:46.560 --> 2:01:48.880 that and you go, that's good. It was fun, but 2:01:49.040 --> 2:01:51.760 you know, it's made the economy. It kind of even 2:01:51.800 --> 2:01:53.480 though it made a couple of hundred million dollars, it 2:01:53.560 --> 2:01:55.200 kind of fell short of what it needed to make. 2:01:56.120 --> 2:01:59.240 And I know Wonners Brothers has had some other successes, 2:01:59.280 --> 2:02:01.280 So it's hard to say what's going to happen is 2:02:02.400 --> 2:02:04.280 but it's clear that one something's going to happen in 2:02:04.320 --> 2:02:07.440 Warner Brothers. And that's maybe the most legendary of all 2:02:07.480 --> 2:02:10.760 the movie studios. You know, the one with the most 2:02:10.760 --> 2:02:14.160 cachet about it is an NBC universe A going to 2:02:14.200 --> 2:02:16.960 do something? Is Netflix going to do something? I don't know. 2:02:17.840 --> 2:02:20.120 You know, I never thought that the tech guys, which 2:02:20.320 --> 2:02:23.720 I always include Netflix sort of in that category. I 2:02:23.760 --> 2:02:26.480 never thought they were that hot on buying movie studios. 2:02:26.520 --> 2:02:27.960 I mean, they'd figure, why the hell do I need 2:02:28.000 --> 2:02:30.800 to do that? I can't just license them. 2:02:31.080 --> 2:02:33.919 I think they would only be buying it for the titles. 2:02:33.960 --> 2:02:38.839 I can't imagine I'm getting into production, et cetera. But okay, 2:02:39.160 --> 2:02:43.600 you're off the radar with your clothing business. Then you 2:02:43.840 --> 2:02:46.320 end up coming in the side door, going in mainstream 2:02:46.400 --> 2:02:53.560 corporate America. Sumner cuts you loose and you have enough cash, 2:02:53.960 --> 2:02:59.320 but you're offered some big jobs. Ultimately, you work with 2:02:59.360 --> 2:03:02.320 Shane Smith Advice, you work with Oprah, you work with Bono, 2:03:02.440 --> 2:03:06.080 and all those things are very fulfilling, but it's one 2:03:06.160 --> 2:03:10.120 step removed from the game without mentioning names. I know 2:03:10.320 --> 2:03:13.360 people who are contemporaries and you say how much longer 2:03:13.360 --> 2:03:15.840 are you going to do this? And they say, I 2:03:15.840 --> 2:03:21.360 don't want to lose access. So emotionally, you were offered 2:03:21.800 --> 2:03:27.000 other big jobs subsequent to some nerve firing you with 2:03:27.200 --> 2:03:29.840 hindsight to say I played it exactly the way I 2:03:29.920 --> 2:03:34.080 wanted or did you say I played it? But I'm 2:03:34.080 --> 2:03:36.800 not happy with the way some people treated me where 2:03:36.840 --> 2:03:41.400 I was. What are your feelings about your post paramount activities? 2:03:42.080 --> 2:03:44.720 Listen, I never fully identified with my job, like I 2:03:44.720 --> 2:03:47.240 know a lot of people do an entertainment business. I 2:03:47.320 --> 2:03:49.000 just thought, you know, there's a lot of different things 2:03:49.000 --> 2:03:50.800 you can do with your life. I had a great 2:03:50.880 --> 2:03:53.760 run there twenty six years. I kept my toe in 2:03:53.800 --> 2:03:56.040 a little bit on boards of some companies. I like 2:03:56.120 --> 2:04:00.400 working with Advice, I like working with Oprah, but there's 2:04:00.400 --> 2:04:02.920 no access I don't need. I don't need that kind 2:04:02.960 --> 2:04:04.680 of access just for the sake but I have a 2:04:04.680 --> 2:04:07.760 circle of friends. If someone doesn't want to be my 2:04:07.880 --> 2:04:10.000 friend because I don't have a position of power in 2:04:10.000 --> 2:04:13.040 the Hollywood structure, well you know, I couldn't care less. 2:04:13.280 --> 2:04:15.960 I don't really need them as friends. I got plenty 2:04:16.000 --> 2:04:19.960 of friends I've never been. I'm happy. In some ways. 2:04:20.000 --> 2:04:21.840 I felt relieved I didn't have to deal with a 2:04:21.880 --> 2:04:24.520 lot of this michigansh that's going on right now, you know, 2:04:24.720 --> 2:04:28.080 to be in the big game with the big companies. 2:04:28.240 --> 2:04:30.200 I know for some people that's their life and blood, 2:04:30.200 --> 2:04:33.200 but it never was for me. I never fully identified 2:04:33.240 --> 2:04:35.960 myself with my job, so it was easier for me 2:04:36.120 --> 2:04:39.880 to have this transition than maybe some other people. So 2:04:40.240 --> 2:04:44.480 I have no complaints. I also feel, at my age, 2:04:44.840 --> 2:04:46.800 you know, I'm sort of got to do good or 2:04:46.840 --> 2:04:49.320 thing going on. I went back to Afghanistan for twelve 2:04:49.400 --> 2:04:52.480 years to work with a company. I was making hardly 2:04:52.520 --> 2:04:55.560 any money at it. To me, it was so exhilarating. 2:04:55.640 --> 2:04:58.839 I thought we were really you know, this was a country, 2:04:58.880 --> 2:05:02.280 a company that had social purpose baked into its agenda, 2:05:02.640 --> 2:05:07.360 gender equality, civilizing Afghans, connecting them each other, connecting them 2:05:07.360 --> 2:05:10.120 to or I loved it. Trying to replicate a bit 2:05:10.160 --> 2:05:12.040 of what we had done I had done in the past. 2:05:12.560 --> 2:05:14.760 So again, that was a business on the margins if 2:05:14.800 --> 2:05:18.000 there ever was want in the frontier market, and it 2:05:18.040 --> 2:05:20.480 was a thrill to be there and do that. You know, 2:05:20.520 --> 2:05:23.080 it wasn't it wasn't paying me a lot of money. 2:05:23.120 --> 2:05:25.840 But how much money do you need? You know? I 2:05:25.880 --> 2:05:30.000 don't understand why a billionaire, for example, thinks he has 2:05:30.040 --> 2:05:31.880 to have two billion dollars, But the hell you can't. 2:05:32.080 --> 2:05:35.480 You couldn't spend a billion dollars. You know, you really 2:05:35.480 --> 2:05:38.760 have to put your mind to it. That's money has 2:05:38.800 --> 2:05:42.640 never been my motivation. I wanted to have experience. I 2:05:42.680 --> 2:05:45.520 want to have full experiences that I enjoyed with people 2:05:45.560 --> 2:05:48.320 I like. I want to be able to see parts 2:05:48.320 --> 2:05:51.120 of the world I used to dream about and continue 2:05:51.160 --> 2:05:55.640 to do that. Stay healthy and have fun. It wouldn't 2:05:55.680 --> 2:05:57.880 be fun running one of these companies right now. That's 2:05:57.920 --> 2:06:00.280 another thing. It doesn't look like these guys are having 2:06:00.280 --> 2:06:04.240 a ball right back. And you were there back in 2:06:04.280 --> 2:06:06.080 the eighties and the nineties, people were having a lot 2:06:06.120 --> 2:06:09.480 of fun running these companies. That ain't the case now. 2:06:11.000 --> 2:06:14.760 Okay, Finally, as someone who's been married a couple of 2:06:14.800 --> 2:06:20.000 times number of relationships. Can someone balance a high powered 2:06:20.080 --> 2:06:24.280 job like this with life, the life work balance or 2:06:24.320 --> 2:06:27.160 really the nature of these jobs they're going to consume 2:06:27.360 --> 2:06:29.360 so much of your time and mental energy. 2:06:31.880 --> 2:06:34.160 Well, a good question. You know, you really give up 2:06:34.200 --> 2:06:37.640 a lot to really throw yourself into one of these jobs, 2:06:37.840 --> 2:06:40.240 you know, because they're all consuming. But you know, I 2:06:40.280 --> 2:06:43.240 look around and I see, you know, there's people who 2:06:44.640 --> 2:06:48.800 I look at my friends in Ginianopolis. He ran Fox, 2:06:48.880 --> 2:06:51.240 he ran Paramount. He was doing as big as anyone 2:06:51.280 --> 2:06:54.280 could do in the movie business. And he and and 2:06:54.400 --> 2:06:58.360 are still happily married. You know, look at Jeffrey Katzenberg 2:06:58.440 --> 2:07:02.120 or Steven Spielberg. They been executives and producers and whatnot. 2:07:02.200 --> 2:07:05.560 They're still married. Everybody doesn't get divorced. Peter Turning, Peter 2:07:05.720 --> 2:07:07.840 Urnan is a great example of someone who was at 2:07:07.840 --> 2:07:10.760 the top and figure out a way to do it differently, 2:07:10.960 --> 2:07:14.360 you know, not on the sidelines, but in his own 2:07:14.400 --> 2:07:17.680 little field and space, by investing in companies and doing 2:07:17.680 --> 2:07:21.600 it really smartly. Well, you know, I don't see that 2:07:21.680 --> 2:07:25.640 divorce is necessarily a phata company if you have a 2:07:25.760 --> 2:07:26.640 high powered job. 2:07:26.760 --> 2:07:31.200 No, Okay, it's been great talking to you. Always great 2:07:31.280 --> 2:07:34.840 talking to you Tom. The book, you know you've heard, 2:07:34.920 --> 2:07:39.320 the surface of the story covers Tom's complete life from Connecticut, 2:07:40.040 --> 2:07:43.320 from the Liverpool Docks to the Hollywood Bull. As Matt 2:07:43.400 --> 2:07:47.160 the Hoople would say, the book is great. I couldn't 2:07:47.160 --> 2:07:50.800 put it down. Unplugged by Tom Freston. Tom, thanks so 2:07:50.880 --> 2:07:52.680 much for taking this time with my audience. 2:07:53.360 --> 2:07:55.720 Bob always good to talk to you and I appreciate 2:07:55.760 --> 2:07:57.960 this the poortant opportunity to talk about the book. So 2:07:58.680 --> 2:07:59.800 I'll see you soon out there. 2:08:00.440 --> 2:08:04.920 Absolutely to take care until next time. This is Bob left, 2:08:04.920 --> 2:08:05.200 SAIDs