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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Tom Freston, who has a new autobiography,

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Speaker 1: Unplugged Adventures from MTV to Tim Buck to Tom. Why

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Speaker 1: this book? Why Now?

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Speaker 2: Well, we had this thing called the pandemic a while back,

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Speaker 2: and I had some time on my hands, and I

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Speaker 2: thought maybe it was time to try and I like writing,

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Speaker 2: trying to link together some of the things in my

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Speaker 2: life and see what kind of sense it might make.

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Speaker 2: So I started churning it out, and next thing, you know,

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Speaker 2: I thought, I thought, rather than do a business book,

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Speaker 2: which everybody's doing, I'd do something more along the line

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Speaker 2: of an adventure story and try and cast it as that.

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Speaker 2: And I try and put in, you know, a series

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Speaker 2: of favorite stories, whether they be physical adventures or adventures

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Speaker 2: like in the workplace, and kind of go from there,

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Speaker 2: and also try and give it a light, kind of

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Speaker 2: humorous tone, so it wasn't too serious and it was

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Speaker 2: fun fun to do.

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Speaker 1: Okay, obviously you're well known for your tenure at MTV.

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Speaker 1: How did you decide how much MTV to include and

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Speaker 1: not include?

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Speaker 2: Well, I didn't want to go into every little detail.

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Speaker 2: A lot of it's all been There's been a bunch

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Speaker 2: of books out on MTV documentaries. I think people kind

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Speaker 2: of know the story. I was always more and more

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Speaker 2: interested in my sort of my first chapter in life,

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Speaker 2: which was, you know, the years I spent in Afghanistan

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Speaker 2: in India, which sort of set the template for me.

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Speaker 2: They were like my most adventurous years I was younger,

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Speaker 2: but also those are the years where I learned various

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Speaker 2: traits that would turn out to serve me well as

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Speaker 2: someone who was running an eccentric media organization that was

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Speaker 2: unlike most others, which was the MTV network, a MTV nick, E,

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Speaker 2: VH one, Comedy Central, and I had I actually had

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Speaker 2: journals Bob from those years when I would I was

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Speaker 2: either bartending my way around North America or I was

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Speaker 2: traveling all over the world by myself mostly, And then

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Speaker 2: spent eight years running a business that was pretty successful

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Speaker 2: and then got, you know, got a series of unfortunate

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Speaker 2: events happened, and I came back to New York, you know,

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Speaker 2: bankrupt and broke in. Then I started at MTV and

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Speaker 2: the MTV story inventsment. I was like every MTV network's

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Speaker 2: running that for all those years and being there. That

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Speaker 2: was you know, all the things in my life that

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Speaker 2: I loved outside of traveling and living abroad was sort

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Speaker 2: of in one place. So it was in a sense

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Speaker 2: for me, it was a perfect job. You know, I'm

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Speaker 2: not saying that no one else couldn't could have done it,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, I wasn't. I didn't have a career path

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Speaker 2: of a traditional media executive, let's put it that way.

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Speaker 1: So what lessons did you learn in your adventures in

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Speaker 1: the so called rag trade in Asia that translated to

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Speaker 1: your tenure at MTV.

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Speaker 2: Well, when I lived there in Asia in the seventies,

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Speaker 2: it was a very tumultuous time in India. India was really,

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Speaker 2: you know, sort of still a brand new nation. It

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Speaker 2: was bureaucratics. Sixty percent of people were below the poverty line.

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Speaker 2: Today that number was like two or three percent. So

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Speaker 2: it was very poor, very ragged, and they were a

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Speaker 2: socialist government. They didn't allow any imports. There was no

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Speaker 2: foreigners really living there. I mean you couldn't go there.

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Speaker 2: And you know, there was no call centers in Bangalore.

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Speaker 2: So I learned humility first and foremost. You realize how

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Speaker 2: small and insignificant you are when you're living in a

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Speaker 2: place like that that seemed to be just made of chaos,

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Speaker 2: and I would find that the determination and you know,

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Speaker 2: flexibility I would need to wind my way through there

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Speaker 2: and be successful was very satisfying. So the improvisation and

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Speaker 2: tolerance of traveling low to the ground, and tolerance of

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Speaker 2: sort of eccentric individuals and so forth, and believing in

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Speaker 2: risk taking, we're all. You know, there was this part

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Speaker 2: of the things that I picked up there. That and

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Speaker 2: feeling confidence, feeling confidence in an international marketplace, which which

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Speaker 2: really led me to put the internationalization of MTV networks

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Speaker 2: on the front burners. And you know when they when

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Speaker 2: governments started to finally liberalize their media and allow satellite

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Speaker 2: and cable to come in the late eighties early nineties,

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Speaker 2: that was a big, big change. Yeah, you know, like

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Speaker 2: in the UK, I mean you could never really there

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Speaker 2: was and there was no radio stations even that played

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Speaker 2: music in the early days. So we kind of came

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Speaker 2: up when that was all happening. I said, well, I

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Speaker 2: want to get first in line for doing that. How

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Speaker 2: can we make say, let's start with MTV and can

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Speaker 2: we make it a real international network? Now CNN would

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Speaker 2: always say they were an international network, but they were

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Speaker 2: mostly in hotels. We were really in local language in

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Speaker 2: most places, in people's homes, and we had local versions

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Speaker 2: and it was greatly satisfying. But to answer your question,

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Speaker 2: you know, I learned it was the hardest work I

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Speaker 2: ever did in my life running that business. Existing there

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Speaker 2: so endurance and fortitude and humility and you know, an

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Speaker 2: appreciation of creativity and risk taking. We're all things that

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Speaker 2: came in handy later on in all parts of my life.

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Speaker 2: It was like a good school.

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Speaker 1: Okay, were you always a confident guy or did you

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Speaker 1: learn to be confident?

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Speaker 2: I learned to be confident, and you know, I would

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Speaker 2: say even today, I still have a bit of that

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Speaker 2: imposter syndrome that a lot of people have, you know,

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Speaker 2: which came really evident to me. Like, you know, when

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Speaker 2: I finally got fired by son to Redstone, I said,

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Speaker 2: oh man, it's like the mask isn't ripped off. I

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Speaker 2: had for a second of flash there that you know,

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Speaker 2: they finally figured out I wasn't the right guy for

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Speaker 2: the job. I really was not incompetent, but I wasn't

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Speaker 2: everything I needed to be. But I dispelled that. But

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Speaker 2: confidence bills, you know, you start out in school and

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Speaker 2: you get from one grade to another, you get a

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Speaker 2: little more confident about your abilities. But my confidence skyrocketed

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Speaker 2: in my date, in my traveling days because I wasn't

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Speaker 2: traveling around going to golf courses. That kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Okay, is confidence faked till you make it? How much

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Speaker 1: is that apart? Do we say, well, let me get

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Speaker 1: myself in the situation and figure it out, as opposed saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is my wheelhouse, I can do this.

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Speaker 2: A combination, but a lot of the former. I think

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Speaker 2: a lot of the former. You know, you kind of

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Speaker 2: learn as you go. You build up confidence by doing things,

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Speaker 2: and you go in and you know, at MTV the

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Speaker 2: first time you have to interact with like major artists,

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Speaker 2: and am I really right for this? I mean, then

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Speaker 2: you find out, you know, you talk to people person

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Speaker 2: to person, You're like, I can do this too. These

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Speaker 2: are like regular people. There's ways to relate to those people,

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Speaker 2: to all kinds of people. So confidence bills as your

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Speaker 2: experience kind of magnifies.

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Speaker 1: So what's the trick to connecting with artists?

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Speaker 2: Well? I always found trying, don't look nervous, be yourself

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Speaker 2: what they really want to hear In many ways is

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Speaker 2: a connection to their music and their artistry. And if

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Speaker 2: you can come off as a genuine not so much

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Speaker 2: a fan, but an appreciator of what they do, and

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Speaker 2: be respectful of their time and what they've done, and

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Speaker 2: talk to them as regular people, it would be like

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Speaker 2: a conversation with anybody after a while. I mean I

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Speaker 2: was never really starstruck, except maybe by a couple of artists.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it was always I always loved

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Speaker 2: what artists did, and I realized early on that I wasn't.

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Speaker 2: You know, I couldn't paint, I couldn't play the guitar.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't do a lot of artistic endeavors, but I could.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to work near create. I wanted to work

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Speaker 2: with creative people and be close to some kind of

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Speaker 2: artistic endeavor, and that I would be able to do that.

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Speaker 2: That that that came to me like when I was

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Speaker 2: in school, I felt that would be that would be

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Speaker 2: the lane I wanted to ultimately be in. That would

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Speaker 2: be satisfying for me. I couldn't make it, but I

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Speaker 2: could help other people do it.

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Speaker 1: What is the trick to talking to business titans who

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Speaker 1: were sprinkled throughout your book.

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Speaker 2: Well, you got to show them that you know how

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Speaker 2: business works. You know how what a P and L is, uh,

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Speaker 2: what ebata is. What they want to see. For example,

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Speaker 2: in a business plan, you can't come off as NAI.

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Speaker 2: If you can't, you want to come off with some confidence.

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Speaker 2: You've got to be able to defend numbers and if

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Speaker 2: you have a great ability to kind of process numbers

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Speaker 2: in your head about percentages and things like that. That

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Speaker 2: I found that always works. They want to you know,

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Speaker 2: in my line of work, it was always I would

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Speaker 2: always try and impress them first without creative output. I

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Speaker 2: always found at the beginning of a meeting if I

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Speaker 2: was going to see somebody, if I was trying to

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Speaker 2: help sell something, butether that be one of our networks

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Speaker 2: to an outside person and they kind of brought me

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Speaker 2: in to do it, or even to my own corporate

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Speaker 2: people that I work with. As you know, a great

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Speaker 2: it's hard to beat a great videotape, and you know

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Speaker 2: that people would stand up and salute at at the

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Speaker 2: end of it because that says, Okay, I'm really going

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Speaker 2: to listen carefully now to what this guy is going

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Speaker 2: to say, because he obviously they got something going on here.

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Speaker 2: And in many cases the videotape was better than in

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Speaker 2: what we were actually making, you know, because it's easy

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Speaker 2: to do a three minute piece of something that seems

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Speaker 2: really you know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, But that's in the selling process when you're talking

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Speaker 1: about you in the book, it's about going to Cuba, Okay,

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Speaker 1: you go with Graydon Carter from Vanity Fair, you go

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Speaker 1: with less Moon Verters from CBS, you go with Rona

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Speaker 1: Howard's partner from Imagine. What's the key to connecting with

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Speaker 1: those people?

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, let me say I wanted to

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Speaker 2: go to Cuba by myself. I mean it started off.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to you know, Cuba was going through this

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Speaker 2: horrible period when the Soviet when the Berlin Wall came down,

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Speaker 2: in communism kind of vaporize, except for Castro. He's like

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Speaker 2: the last communist going just about. There's certainly the last

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Speaker 2: one in the Western hemisphere. But the music scene, despite

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Speaker 2: all the increasing poverty in Cuba was really vibrant, and

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Speaker 2: they had fantastic music there, and I wanted to go

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Speaker 2: in there and sort of get in on it and

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Speaker 2: make some connections. So I happened to to Brian Grazer

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Speaker 2: one day, who I hadn't known since the eighties. You know,

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Speaker 2: he was an early guy who I knew around MTV.

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Speaker 2: We would promote some of his films. We had a friendship.

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Speaker 2: I said, Hey, I'm going to Cuba. You know, I

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Speaker 2: want to check out the music scene there and get

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Speaker 2: a sense of it, because I know we can't start

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Speaker 2: MTV there. But if we could get some relationships with

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Speaker 2: some of these musicians and you know, find out what's

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Speaker 2: going on it could you know, we have a ravenous

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Speaker 2: network we could use this stuff. He says, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'd like to go, so you know, you know, I said, okay,

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Speaker 2: you want to go. So then he tells somebody else,

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Speaker 2: who tells somebody else. Next thing, you know, I got

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Speaker 2: a whole bolo to moguls. They all want to go

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Speaker 2: to Cuba. And I found this guy, this great guy

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Speaker 2: lives in La Jonathan Branstein. He was like my man

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Speaker 2: in Havana. He'd had been there many times, and he

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Speaker 2: got us the proper visas. Allegedly they were the proper

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Speaker 2: visas that you would need to go to Cuba. And

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Speaker 2: we all went. But I knew all these people, Bob

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Speaker 2: and as I kind of came up in the business,

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Speaker 2: you just run into a certain level of people. And

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Speaker 2: as you know, I knew Graydon from Vanity Fair, I

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Speaker 2: knew Brad gray tangentially less Moonvez and I worked in

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Speaker 2: like sister companies who also Jim Wyatt then was running

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Speaker 2: William Morris, I Ken I'm trying to remember now who

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Speaker 2: was house on the trip. But anyway, next thing, I'm

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Speaker 2: bringing now a group of fussy people to a communist

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Speaker 2: country I've never been to, and they and they want

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Speaker 2: a certain level of service which I'm not even sure exists.

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Speaker 2: So all of a sudden, now I'm like a tour

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Speaker 2: guide rather than someone who's sort of freelancing down there

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Speaker 2: trying to you know, meet as many people as I can.

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Speaker 2: And I'm with a lot of people who kind of

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Speaker 2: view this as some kind of holiday.

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Speaker 1: But it was.

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Speaker 2: It was fun. You know, we all got you know,

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Speaker 2: you rent the old cars from your youth and drive

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Speaker 2: around Havana, which is like it was exotic. It was

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Speaker 2: like I think two thousand and one and uh, you know,

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Speaker 2: Havana is a beautiful city. And we ended up having

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Speaker 2: a series of meetings. It was productive and it didn't

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Speaker 2: end well. Didn't end well, but we did have dinner.

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Speaker 2: We had lunch with the Fidel Castro, which was unexpected.

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Speaker 2: He thought, you know, we're a group of people in

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Speaker 2: town he wanted to meet, so he entertained us for

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Speaker 2: like five and a half hours out of lunch, which

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Speaker 2: was you know, just one funny story about that. So

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Speaker 2: we're told by this minder from the Ministry of Culture,

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Speaker 2: Jorge Gonzalez, who was a cool kind of dude, little

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Speaker 2: rotn guy. We were around and we met some of

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Speaker 2: the Cuban All the music seemed to go up through

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Speaker 2: people in the government, the Ministry of Culture. We had

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Speaker 2: a meeting there and as we're leaving that want to

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Speaker 2: hit Jorge's bosses and says, hey, do you guys want

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Speaker 2: to meet Fidel. We want to meet the big man,

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Speaker 2: you know, the big man. We want to meet Fidel.

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Speaker 2: He'd like to meet you. Well, yeah, we'd like to

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Speaker 2: meet Fidel. So they said, well, we got a he's

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Speaker 2: speaking tomorrow night to a group of school teachers outside

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Speaker 2: of Havana, and you know it's going to go late,

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Speaker 2: So would you guys be up to meetingum like one

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Speaker 2: or two in the morning. Oh yeah, whatever, it's Foridel Castro,

259
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Speaker 2: for God's sake. He's a man from history. So it

260
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Speaker 2: turns out that he doesn't use a cell phone. All

261
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Speaker 2: these cats use burner phones, and what they don't know,

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Speaker 2: they don't even use burner phones. They use payphones. So

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Speaker 2: they take us to this kind of club that's sort

264
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Speaker 2: of like a brothel. You know. People are dry humping

265
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Speaker 2: against the wall. It's the communist upper class. They're letting

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Speaker 2: off steam on a Friday. And we're waiting for the

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Speaker 2: call to come in. And the call comes in to

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Speaker 2: a payphone outside. We all go outside and it's like,

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Speaker 2: he can't meet you tonight, He's got to meet you tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: Why don't you come for lunch? I said, okay, So

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Speaker 2: we get ready, we go for lunch. We pull in

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Speaker 2: like two when was a fifty seven Cadillac invertible and

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Speaker 2: was a fifty four to Ford convertible, like a bunch

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Speaker 2: of yahoo. Gring goes and there he is on the

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Speaker 2: palace steps and I'm thinking, Wow, that's Fidel Castro. He's

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Speaker 2: a man from history. We tried to kill him like

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Speaker 2: eight or nine times with a CEO. What's he going

278
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Speaker 2: to say to us? What's his first words? And he

279
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Speaker 2: says he comes out and you look up at him.

280
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Speaker 2: He's on top of a flight of stairs and he says,

281
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Speaker 2: what do you guys produces the Sopranos? This is like

282
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Speaker 2: Cuba is only HBO subscriber. He's really a jump thinking god.

283
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Speaker 2: Gangsters tried to kill him, you know, and we had this,

284
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Speaker 2: We hired gangsters to take him out with exploding cigars

285
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Speaker 2: and wet suits filled with poison. And now he wants

286
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Speaker 2: to know who produced the Sopranos about the gangster so

287
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Speaker 2: is Brad Gray? Brad Gray then ran Brillstein Gray, He

288
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Speaker 2: said it was me, and so he works his way

289
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Speaker 2: forward and Fidel goes, that's my favorite show. That's my

290
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Speaker 2: favorite show. That was sort of his icebreaker, and then uh,

291
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Speaker 2: you know, we're let into the Palace of Ferns where

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Speaker 2: he would entertain foreign dignitaries, and we're all doing cocktails

293
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Speaker 2: and ganging around and talking about this and that, and

294
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Speaker 2: it was just bizarre. And then we would go in

295
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Speaker 2: to sit for this luncheon and I'm sitting at his

296
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Speaker 2: right and I always remember we all had place settings,

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Speaker 2: and his his el Comandante al hefe Fidel Castro was

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Speaker 2: his place card, which I of course stole when the

299
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Speaker 2: meal was over. But he sat us all down and

300
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Speaker 2: gone on and on, and he started, you guys, want

301
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Speaker 2: to drink any wine? You know? He wheels out this

302
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Speaker 2: this like all this wine from Chile and Algeria, and

303
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Speaker 2: we start drinking wine. Everybody's getting a little buzz. And

304
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Speaker 2: he just went on and on and on. He would

305
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Speaker 2: have this translator. He spoke perfect English, but he had

306
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Speaker 2: this translator who was always like a half a sentence

307
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Speaker 2: behind him. And then this guy could talk. So if

308
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,040
Speaker 2: we were there for five and a half hours, he

309
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Speaker 2: talked for five of it. And at one point I

310
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Speaker 2: would a couple of points. I got up and I said,

311
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Speaker 2: oh that this is what am I doing here? I

312
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Speaker 2: came down here to listen to some music, make some connections.

313
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Speaker 2: Now I'm listening to the what's the price of kilo

314
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Speaker 2: aut of electricity? And uh, you know in one of

315
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Speaker 2: the one of the Cuban taps, which he knew by

316
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Speaker 2: wrote he he knew all these facts and figures. I

317
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,080
Speaker 2: would go into the restroom and gonaix hail. But at

318
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Speaker 2: the end he he wheeled in. He said it's over.

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Speaker 2: They wheeled in this trolley with all these boxes of

320
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Speaker 2: cigars that he signed them all. And then he had

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Speaker 2: this American photographer who was a communist who left the

322
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Speaker 2: who had Steve still spoke with a bronx accent. He

323
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Speaker 2: came out and he autographed all these photos that he

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Speaker 2: Jonathan knew this guy, and it was like it was

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Speaker 2: like you know when you're at when the artists come

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Speaker 2: out at the end of a show to sign CDs

327
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Speaker 2: and everything that was were all these guys who were

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Speaker 2: sort of paid to not lose their cool, were like fanboys.

329
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Speaker 2: And then Grazer does and buy a photo, but he

330
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Speaker 2: says to Fidel, you know who running to know really

331
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Speaker 2: all about how he made his hair stand up straight.

332
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Speaker 2: He wanted to know about hair gel and Brian Grazer.

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Speaker 2: He says, well, sign sign my chest. When you just

334
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Speaker 2: sign my chest and he goes, no, I'm not gonna say,

335
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Speaker 2: well sign my shirt. Sure enough he Fidel Castro sign

336
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Speaker 2: says shirt. It was a it was a crazy uh

337
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Speaker 2: end to a memorable lunch.

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Speaker 1: So you walk out of the building. At first there's silence,

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Speaker 1: Then you look at each other, what do you say?

340
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Speaker 1: What did everybody say? At that point?

341
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Speaker 2: Well, we all get in the car and it's like

342
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Speaker 2: teeming rain, and just as soon as we're about to

343
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Speaker 2: pull out, the sky's open, you know, and it's all

344
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Speaker 2: of a sudden, it's like a tropical paradise again. So

345
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Speaker 2: we put the tops down and we're all kind of

346
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Speaker 2: stunned and people going, wow, that was something you believe

347
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:55,760
Speaker 2: that you were heading to the airport because he had to.

348
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Speaker 2: We tipped in and charted a plane to cant Coon

349
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Speaker 2: because he couldn't really go on a commercial flight in

350
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Speaker 2: those days. So we took this little plane, we filled

351
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Speaker 2: it up and we get in a plane. I remember

352
00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,520
Speaker 2: Brad Gray says, no one had said anything really yet,

353
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Speaker 2: and he says, so where are we going next? You know,

354
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,600
Speaker 2: let's just skip over the whole experience and go into

355
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Speaker 2: the next chapter. So it was a that was a a.

356
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,960
Speaker 2: And then we all got fined fifty five thousand dollars.

357
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,199
Speaker 2: That was bad news. That was bad news, and we

358
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,160
Speaker 2: had to get out of it. We hired reich Hooter's

359
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,119
Speaker 2: lawyer because he had had the same problem when he

360
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,399
Speaker 2: made Buinnivist the social club, and the lawyer turned out

361
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,080
Speaker 2: to be a guy who worked in the Treasury department.

362
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Speaker 2: He used to find people like us for doing it.

363
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Speaker 2: And then what the worst one worst thing happened to

364
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Speaker 2: less Moonviz. Because he was in the middle of negotiations

365
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:47,600
Speaker 2: with David Letterman, and Letterman couldn't get over the less Moon.

366
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Speaker 2: He's having a link a fight negotiating with David Letterman,

367
00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:53,600
Speaker 2: and he did a skit called Lunch with Fidel and

368
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,360
Speaker 2: Less and they would whe let these comedians. This guy

369
00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,440
Speaker 2: was dressed up as Fidel Castro and a guy was

370
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:03,240
Speaker 2: dressed up at with the less Moonvez and Less would

371
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,120
Speaker 2: say to these ina things like I have the biggest

372
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Speaker 2: office in Hollywood, or I went to Fiddel's Grammy party

373
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Speaker 2: and he let me whip some artists and you know,

374
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Speaker 2: things like that. And uh, I think Less took the

375
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,359
Speaker 2: brunt of the joke, that's for sure, but it was

376
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,560
Speaker 2: it was you know, we ended up getting I ended

377
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,879
Speaker 2: up getting relationships in Cuba, which was my original intent,

378
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,000
Speaker 2: and we were able to get some music out of

379
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Speaker 2: there and so forth.

380
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Speaker 1: Okay, you were told that it was okay to do

381
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:39,000
Speaker 1: it and then ultimately find you know, the Silicon Valley

382
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,639
Speaker 1: mantra is you know, ask for permission after the fact.

383
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Speaker 1: Is that the kind of guy you are we're gonna

384
00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:47,880
Speaker 1: do it. It's gonna work out in the long run.

385
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:48,640
Speaker 1: Are you fearful?

386
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:48,840
Speaker 2: Wait?

387
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 1: Wait this is illegal or I heard this?

388
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,359
Speaker 2: Well in some cases yeah, but in this case, I

389
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,440
Speaker 2: was told we had this what they call a cultural

390
00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 2: exchange visa and Jonathan arranging, So man, it'd be a

391
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 2: lay up to get those I mean, you guys, you're

392
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,439
Speaker 2: going down there looking for music. It's okay, and you know,

393
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,400
Speaker 2: we all thought we were golden. Then when I get

394
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:09,520
Speaker 2: this note in the mails, like an inch thick a

395
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,440
Speaker 2: thing from a Treasury department, I called Jonathan and he goes, yeah,

396
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,119
Speaker 2: we had it. I have it too. I got the

397
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 2: same package. But I think we jumped the shark when

398
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,159
Speaker 2: we had lunch with Fidel Castro. That wasn't sort of

399
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:27,200
Speaker 2: included as cultural exchange. But in general, I'd be more

400
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:31,199
Speaker 2: inclined to if someone said, well, we could have a

401
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,199
Speaker 2: problem doing that. I mean, you assess the risks, and

402
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,879
Speaker 2: sometimes you just go ahead and everything works out. You're

403
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,640
Speaker 2: not if you just play by the rules or listen

404
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 2: to lawyers all your life. You know, you're kind of

405
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,640
Speaker 2: handicapped in a way, particularly if you want to move

406
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 2: with any speed.

407
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 1: Okay, ultimately, Fidel bored you. But you know, we all

408
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,919
Speaker 1: had these experiences with famous people and a lot of

409
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,920
Speaker 1: times you say, I can't believe that's the guy. Other

410
00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,679
Speaker 1: times you go, wow, that guy lives up to the

411
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,400
Speaker 1: rep So with all this history, the Cuban missile crisis,

412
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,639
Speaker 1: et cetera, you're there with Fidel. You're saying, you know,

413
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,640
Speaker 1: he may be boring me, but he knows what he's doing.

414
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 1: Or you're saying, I can't believe this guy's running the country.

415
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,239
Speaker 2: Well, no, you have to respect for him. I mean,

416
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 2: he would tell me he was still he told me

417
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,400
Speaker 2: he still earns, he still earned sneakers, he works out

418
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 2: an hour a day. I mean, he had controlled this

419
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 2: whole country in every way, shape or form, like no

420
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,680
Speaker 2: autocrat really gets a chance to do. Because it was

421
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 2: a small island, not that small. But you know, I

422
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 2: mean he was a man of consequence. He had withstood

423
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,399
Speaker 2: a lot of stuff, and he was just dabbling around

424
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 2: with us. But I mean he was I don't know

425
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 2: what he was expecting from us, but he when he

426
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 2: starts talking, he kind of goes into a routine, and

427
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 2: you know, we're hearing all the facts about the triumphs

428
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 2: of the revolution and the superior medical system they have

429
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 2: and the work they do in Angola and this and that. Yeah,

430
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 2: and it's interesting. But if you're with somebody and they

431
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,440
Speaker 2: talked for almost five hours straight, you know, you don't

432
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 2: see a lot of that. And at one point he

433
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,880
Speaker 2: wanted to say, Less, I want you to bring back

434
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,880
Speaker 2: a message to President Clinton. You know about these planes

435
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 2: that keep coming over from Florida dropping leaflets on Havana,

436
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 2: because then he shot two of these planes down. I want,

437
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 2: I want want, I want build and know, I want

438
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 2: Clinton to know that I don't mean problems. I have

439
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,120
Speaker 2: good intentions. And Less goes, Yeah, I'll get the message

440
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 2: to him. But I'm thinking, but now George Bush is

441
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,919
Speaker 2: the president. He's been the president for two months or

442
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,919
Speaker 2: three months, and I'm thinking he, you know, he was

443
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 2: really really felt bad that uh, these Cuban exiles or

444
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 2: whatever you want to call him, or flying over and

445
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 2: doing these things. But and he had to defend his country.

446
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 2: I mean, I could put myself in his shoes. I'm thinking,

447
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,159
Speaker 2: you just can't have somebody coming over in a piper

448
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 2: plane dumping stuff out and violating your airspace and you

449
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 2: warn them a few times and then you have to,

450
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,199
Speaker 2: you know, shoot him down. I get it. But he

451
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 2: was concerned, and yeah, maybe that's one of the reasons

452
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 2: he wanted to meet us, was to have an opportunity

453
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 2: to send some you know, sort of under the table

454
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 2: or you know, messages back to the American government. Two

455
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 2: unusual connections.

456
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 1: What other heads of stints have you met.

457
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 2: Well, I'm trying to think in my life and when

458
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 2: I was at MTV and Viacom, you know, I met

459
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,959
Speaker 2: or I met I met Justin Trudeau a few times

460
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 2: when we were working my work with Bread, I met him.

461
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 2: I'm going through the list now in my head. Once

462
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,880
Speaker 2: I was in Mexico at a U two show years ago,

463
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 2: and I believe a president of Mexico showed up. But

464
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 2: you know, these were like not in depth meetings or anything.

465
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 2: This is sort of a meet and greet. I haven't

466
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: really had any exchanges with any you know, American presidents. Yes,

467
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 2: but I don't think as I think now, Bob, nothing

468
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 2: really jumps out of me that I was hanging out

469
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 2: with the heads of state in any consequential way.

470
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: Okay, you go on about Bono reaches out after your

471
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,920
Speaker 1: tenure at Via Commons, you work with him on Red.

472
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 1: Bono has a The public perception is shall I say,

473
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 1: Kira Sciro. Some people positive, some people negative. What do

474
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 1: people not get about Bono?

475
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 2: Well, I'm a fan, you know. I know a lot

476
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 2: of people think he's a wind bag and why is

477
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 2: he doing all this stuff? But I've seen this guy

478
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 2: who has a very busy life, and all the amount

479
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 2: of time and effort he would spend on this when

480
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 2: he could be doing something you know that other people

481
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 2: might find more personally gratifying, vacationing or spending more time,

482
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 2: you know, around the house or listen to music. He would,

483
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 2: you know, go to Africa for a couple of weeks

484
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 2: and he'd work. He'd be working eighteen hours a day.

485
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 2: I mean, he really really wanted to make a difference.

486
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 2: He really cared about injustice. He really believed that activists

487
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 2: could be lifted up because change in governments. He really

488
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 2: believed this. He was a good man, he was a

489
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 2: great speaker. So I've seen him wear himself down. I

490
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 2: mean at some point that's how I kind of came

491
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 2: into the picture. Because McGuinness, Paul McGinnis, who you know,

492
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 2: he called me because I turned down Bono's overtures and

493
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 2: he called me. He said, you know, why don't you

494
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 2: come over. You know, Bono's got these do gooder things going.

495
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 2: It's kind of upsetting the band in a bunch of ways,

496
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 2: and he could use some help. These things are running

497
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 2: off the rails a bit. He could use a little

498
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 2: help and bring a little organization to bear. And so

499
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: I went over and be pitched me, and Bono pitched me,

500
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 2: and I think guy had been so good to me,

501
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 2: and I believed in what he was doing, and I

502
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 2: saw his sincerity, and I'm a fan. So I signed

503
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 2: up and said I would do three months. I'd give

504
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 2: you a report back. I go around and talk to

505
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 2: people and I'll tell you how many want to reorganize

506
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 2: these things in a way that might work more efficiently

507
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 2: and effectively and take up less of your time, which

508
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 2: I did. And it was interesting because in it it

509
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,959
Speaker 2: was like, well, you're going to fire some people, you know,

510
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 2: he got some people here are either too political or extraneous,

511
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 2: and he was really reluctant on that score. And I saw,

512
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 2: like the loyalty the man feels, he's a loyal guy.

513
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 2: I could see why the band's been together for all

514
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 2: these years, something we don't really see in any bands

515
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 2: that have been around for that many decades. But you know,

516
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 2: finally I had my way and I said I'll see you.

517
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 2: And he said, well, why don't you just stay on

518
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 2: the board, Why don't you be the board chair. I

519
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 2: had had no real experience on being a board chair

520
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 2: or anything, but I said, sure, I'll do it. I'm

521
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: still the board chair. The work has been very gratifying

522
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 2: for me. And he's kind of peeled off the bed.

523
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 2: He's dropped off the board. He's a founder now he

524
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: still does stuff. But your question was is he basically

525
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 2: is he bullshitter or not. He's a hard working guy.

526
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 2: He spent so much of his personal time, Bob, I

527
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 2: mean so much on this work. I mean, you know,

528
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 2: for no money and doing it sincerely and being brought

529
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 2: to tears in places. So I have great respect for that.

530
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 2: And he could you know, he stands up a guy,

531
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 2: gives a good speech, and he you know, he's got

532
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 2: the ability to talk and relate to lots of people,

533
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 2: sort of almost a Clinton esque, you know, sincerity. He

534
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 2: listens to people. Yes, he talks a lot.

535
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: Does he have a sense of humor about himself. Is

536
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: he aware of public perception or is he living in

537
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: a bubble?

538
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 2: Oh no, he knows, you know. I mean I remember

539
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 2: one time I was down in as you know, he's

540
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 2: got a place down there, and we were driving around

541
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 2: in his car. It's got like I'm a modest car.

542
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 2: And you know, most artists they don't like to listen

543
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 2: to their own music. You know, they go into a

544
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 2: club and someone playing their music and it's like, I

545
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: don't want to hear. He can't get enough of his

546
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 2: own music. So I remember he's, Uh, we're in some

547
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 2: car and he's got it turned up to like eleven,

548
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 2: and there's some Someboddy like in the next car rolling

549
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 2: down in the windows, telling them basically to turn it down,

550
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 2: even though it's coming kind of coming through windows. He

551
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 2: he just thinks, it's how it's fucking bono, man, it's

552
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 2: fucking fuck bono. He goes, yeah, fuck bono. He likes,

553
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 2: he enjoys the people who take him down. I mean,

554
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 2: he's fully aware of it, and it just rolls off

555
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: him and he finds some humor in it. He knows,

556
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: he knows what people don't like about him. And you know,

557
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 2: he can roll with the punches.

558
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: So what's the status of the organization today.

559
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 2: Well, we have two organizations that basically are sort of

560
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 2: like a little conglomerate. There's one the One Campaign, which

561
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: is the activist organization that you know, it does two

562
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 2: things that sort of lobbies governments to line up and

563
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 2: do the right things on police and financial commitments they

564
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 2: make to the South to Africa and to and help

565
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 2: people in the South like be better to stand on

566
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 2: their own feet and you know, and help policies be

567
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: you know, how would I say this? You know, they

568
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: just be smart. AID if we're going to do aid

569
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 2: A doesn't work in a lot of ways, and we

570
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 2: recognize that and really the key to development in Africa

571
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: is going to be from the private sector. But one

572
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,479
Speaker 2: place it does work is in the health sector. And

573
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 2: there's been twenty five million people now walking around in

574
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 2: Africa who would have been dead because they're on any

575
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 2: retroviral drugs which are financed thirty percent by the United States.

576
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 2: But and we were the leaders and the rest by

577
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 2: you know, other countries, and it's made a huge difference.

578
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: You know, towns where coffin making was the chief business

579
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 2: and the whole city was falling under and a state

580
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 2: was on its way to becoming a failed state. Kind

581
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 2: of revived and it's been great what we do now.

582
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 2: And now we're trying to switch to making it a

583
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 2: real African based organization helping African leaders, you know, kind

584
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: of finance their you know, end ofate, finance their own

585
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 2: health systems and so forth. That's a challenge for us.

586
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 2: The biggest challenge now, for one, is that Trump blew

587
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 2: a hole. You know, he closed down USAID and a

588
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 2: lot of foreign aids. So it's just crippling, and it's

589
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: such a hole it's impossible to fill with Bill Gates

590
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 2: or any of these foundations. It's and and it means

591
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: that you know, tens of millions of people aren't going

592
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 2: to get the drugs they need. We actually had stores

593
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 2: of these drugs for you know, stocked up in the UAE,

594
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 2: and rather than give them out, the Trump administration had

595
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 2: them burned. We had stores of these high protein bars

596
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: for children in Sudan. Rather than give them out or

597
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 2: give them to save the children or some other NGO,

598
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 2: we had them burned and destroyed. It's like cruelty is

599
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 2: sort of in the DNA of the administration and the

600
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:59,479
Speaker 2: richest man in the world would would would say that

601
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 2: us AID, which spends one third of one percent of

602
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 2: the national budget, say twenty million dollars, is a criminal

603
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: organization that does that. He put in the wood chipper,

604
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: and it's and people who work there at criminals. I know,

605
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 2: these people they're like do gooders. I mean, they could

606
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 2: have made a lot of money and done things, you know,

607
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: made a lot more money. And if they were in

608
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 2: the private sector, and I'm sure there was a lot

609
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 2: of things going on there that could have been done

610
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: better or maybe you shouldn't have been done at all. But

611
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 2: that's like a footnote in the sense of the good

612
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:34,959
Speaker 2: things that they did in the lives that they saved.

613
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 2: I mean, we give twenty forty billion dollars to Argentina.

614
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 2: You know. Meanwhile, the twenty billion that we were spending,

615
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 2: the part of what we spent in Africa was keeping

616
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 2: people alive, and it was burnishing America's image in a

617
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 2: good way, which we certainly need. And secondly, it was

618
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 2: good for American security because you don't want migration to

619
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: be you know, increased in flooding. And you know, it

620
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 2: was a small when the richest country in the histy

621
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 2: the world can't do that, and yet we have twice

622
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,720
Speaker 2: that amount of money to the government of Argentina for

623
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 2: no apparent good reason. And you make people in the

624
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 2: civil service feel so diminished and disregarded. And these are

625
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: one these are these are people who are some of

626
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 2: our best citizens. It's just just sad. So we're dealing

627
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 2: with that. How do we plug the hole here? How

628
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 2: do we help get Africa on the road to being

629
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: self sufficient more quickly? Uh So we're doing that and Read,

630
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 2: which is sort of the sister organization, you know, they

631
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 2: do these phones and the you know, we've raised about

632
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 2: eight hundred million dollars and all the money goes to

633
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: the Global Fund, which is for AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria.

634
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 2: We want it. We want to get that to a

635
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 2: billion dollars. There's now, believe it or not, an AIDS

636
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 2: vaccine finally available, going to be available in the near term,

637
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 2: which is this huge thing with people have been talking

638
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: about for years. Uh So we're trying to figure out

639
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 2: how we couple that and the getting the distribution of

640
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 2: that done and paid for in a way that could

641
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 2: be efficient. So we've got a handful of challenges. We've

642
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 2: got an African CEO now, which is part of the

643
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 2: move to kind of I want to really move this

644
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 2: into being an African led organization, not Southern with a

645
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,839
Speaker 2: bunch of white Northerners and eventually just have it sort

646
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: of sit there. So we're in transition trying to deal

647
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 2: with the discombobulation of this whole ecosystem that has been

648
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 2: created by the Trump administration and Doze and Musk and

649
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 2: all of that frustrating.

650
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 1: So what is the overall budget of these organizations and

651
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: how many people are on the payroll?

652
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 2: Well, if I look at Red and One together, it's

653
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 2: probably twenty five to thirty million a year. That includes

654
00:34:53,960 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 2: mostly employees, do gooders, activists. It's funded entirely from private

655
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 2: sector funds. You know, we have money, you know, John Dorr,

656
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 2: George Sorows, Mike Bloomberg, Build Gates Foundation, other people, And

657
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: that's what we do. And it's less money than we

658
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 2: used to spend. We've been hit like a lot of

659
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 2: organizations have with these cutbacks in general. So what we

660
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 2: can do a lot of good work with that amount

661
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: of funding. It's not all the money in the world,

662
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 2: and I would say, none of it's really wasted. It

663
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 2: goes to good effort. It goes for good But in

664
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 2: the case of Red, every cent that read raises, one

665
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 2: percent of it goes to buying largely these antiretroviral drugs.

666
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 2: So it's not like one of these things where people

667
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 2: give money and it's always going to some bloated overhead.

668
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 2: The overhead itself is covered by a couple of donors

669
00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 2: and it's really small.

670
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: In the book, you talk about as part of this effort,

671
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: you deal with politicos and you say they don't always

672
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,799
Speaker 1: these elected officials don't always square with your perception, and

673
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: you can have a meeting of the minds. Can you

674
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: tell me more about that.

675
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 2: Well, all my life I had avoided politic politicians. It's

676
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 2: one of the reasons I never met a lot of them.

677
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 2: When I was in working at MTV Networks, at Viacom,

678
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 2: I had avoided a lot of them. One they tried

679
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 2: to draft me and send me to Vietnam when I

680
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 2: was younger, just like they did to you two. Jimmy

681
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 2: Carter kind of ended my business like on the drop

682
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 2: of a nickel in the late seventies. The business I

683
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: worked so hard for for eight years. I announced one day,

684
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 2: we're going to do an embargo on clothes from India.

685
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,959
Speaker 2: You know, there was no warning. It's just the same

686
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 2: thing that's happened now with Trump and his tariffs. I mean,

687
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 2: you're a small businessman and you just can't afford to

688
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: pay this kind of money. There's so many companies now,

689
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 2: like small companies that are going through exactly this. You're

690
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 2: a furniture importer from China or Indonesia. You've got to

691
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 2: pay fifty percent more for this stuff, and you know,

692
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 2: you don't your employees or you know, the parts that

693
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: you need that you're bringing in from out of the

694
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 2: country or heavily tarraft and you just can't handle it.

695
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 2: You're going to go under. So we're going to see

696
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 2: a wave and we're seeing it already of bankruptcies in

697
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 2: that small business sector. So I was, you know, and

698
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 2: you know, it always offended me that there was never

699
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 2: a warning, like, don't these politicians know that these businesses

700
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 2: could like give them a little time to adjust, don't

701
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,240
Speaker 2: just kill everything day one. I mean, give them some warning.

702
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 2: There's like it's like they never had the stand put there,

703
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: you know, standing the feet stand in the shoes of

704
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 2: a small businessman. They don't know what it's like to

705
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 2: be living from nickel to dive and have a cash

706
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 2: flow crunch. I mean, they just decrease something and assume

707
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 2: everything's going to fall into place, but the pain is extensive.

708
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 2: So I was never a f of politicians. When I

709
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 2: started working with Red and One, I began to meet

710
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 2: a lot of them, and I was impressed by their sincerity.

711
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: I mean, these weren't the guys who were enforcing the

712
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 2: things that had pained me. But you know, even somebody

713
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 2: like Mike Huckabee, who I know now is sort of

714
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: the ambassador to Israel at all. I spent a lot

715
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 2: of time with him. We'd drive around. I was John Kasik,

716
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 2: John Podesta. We used to take these bipartisan groups on

717
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 2: these tours to see things. I found that the best

718
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: way to get someone as a being advocate about Africa

719
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 2: and extreme poverty was to take them there, because once

720
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 2: they got there, their hearts would open and they could

721
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 2: see that good things were being done, particularly in the

722
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 2: health area. And these were nice people. I remember a

723
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 2: time once we were in Liberia, which was really a

724
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 2: war torn country, and you know, had had this really

725
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 2: ugly civil war, and we were going to meet the president.

726
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 2: It was Bono myself. There was a group of us,

727
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 2: and then into town pulls up Lindsey Graham, John Thune,

728
00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 2: and John the senator from Arizona who passed McKenney McCain

729
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 2: Sidney McCain. So all these people had spent ten days

730
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 2: of what was basically their recess ended the summer recess,

731
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:19,839
Speaker 2: going around from Sudan to Rwanda, to Congo to Liberia,

732
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 2: going around on this congressional delegation when they you know,

733
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 2: they could have been home doing barbecues or listening to

734
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 2: their constituents. And I was so impressed. These were Republicans,

735
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 2: they cared about this issue. I mean, it's funny to

736
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 2: see where they are now, but I mean I would say, well,

737
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 2: they really in their heart, their hearts are okay. This

738
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 2: is an issue that you know, left and right could

739
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 2: agree on, and they have for a long time. So

740
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 2: I would as I spend time with these people, as

741
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 2: often happens, when you meet people with whom you might

742
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 2: have some prejudice against, they turn out to be human

743
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 2: and you have some common ground and you end up

744
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 2: having a good feeling about them.

745
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: So talking about Africa, when I was growing up, there

746
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,800
Speaker 1: was the Congo. Then I was in college at a

747
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: friend of mine set his brother had hitchhiked through Africa. Certainly,

748
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 1: in the seventies, a lot of young Americans went to Europe.

749
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 1: Now they go to Asia. On some level, Africa's still

750
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 1: a black hole. People are afraid to go there. What

751
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: is really going on in Africa now.

752
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 2: Well, it's hard to speak of it as a single

753
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 2: continent because it's fifty four countries and some of them

754
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 2: are really conflict zones, like the dr he liked, the Congo,

755
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 2: like the Sudan. I mean, you know, you look at

756
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 2: the eastern Congo. The six million people have been killed

757
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 2: there in the last ten twenty years in the wake

758
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 2: of the Rwandan comeback from their genocide, or the Sudan.

759
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 2: It's just, you know, we've seen this stuff on the

760
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 2: news recently, and now you've got al Qaeda about to

761
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 2: take over Congo and Urkina Faso, and South Africa, which

762
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 2: had been Africa's economy, has you know, has sort of

763
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 2: plagued with all kinds of political issues and shortages of

764
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 2: this and that. So but there are places that are

765
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 2: doing well you can Rwanda, Ghana, the hand Senegal, Kenya.

766
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 2: These are countries that are kind of emerging to be

767
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:23,760
Speaker 2: middle class countries. So it's a mix. Some are war zones,

768
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 2: some are about to become true middle class countries. Others

769
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 2: are sort of on the middle. They're trying to fight off,

770
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 2: you know, to hottest organizations across the Sahel. You know,

771
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 2: look at Somalia. They've been lingering on the edge for

772
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 2: a long time, but there is a population explosion going

773
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 2: on there. There is, on average, an increase in disposable income.

774
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 2: A middle class is emerging in a lot of these countries.

775
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 2: Their primary problem is governance. You know, there's there's still corruption,

776
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 2: which is you know, the level of corruption is almost

777
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 2: equal to the amount of is greater than the amount

778
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: of foreign aid that pours in there in various places.

779
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 2: Some people think it's an unstoppable whole. I don't believe that.

780
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 2: I mean, I've seen progress in places when they get

781
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 2: governance in shape. Look at Rwanda, it's like you've never

782
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 2: been to a cleaner country, Bob. The whole population has

783
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,399
Speaker 2: to go out on one Saturday a month and pick

784
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 2: up garbage and do things. I mean, the place and

785
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 2: you consider they had this awful eight hundred thousand people

786
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 2: killed in a genocide in nineteen ninety four. Now it's like, man,

787
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 2: it's like a paradise there, really clean and clear. I mean,

788
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 2: an exception to the rule, I'll say. But you know,

789
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 2: the problems are endemic in some of these other ones,

790
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 2: and they appear to be unsolvable. But I have a

791
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 2: connection when I go there, I feel somehow, I feel

792
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 2: this wonderful sense of purpose, I guess, and when you

793
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: see that, things can improve. I also love the arts.

794
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 2: The arts are booming and quite often as the arts

795
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 2: that can help bring up a country. You look at

796
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 2: a country like Nigeria Afro Beat, the music, the music

797
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 2: everywhere in Africa is sensational. I've been able to travel

798
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 2: independently to like so many of these musical meccas in

799
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 2: Africa and really dig down to the history there and

800
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 2: where there's me all our music kind of came from there.

801
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 2: So as a music fan first, I find traveling in

802
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 2: Africa fascinating. I made a lot of separate trips on

803
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 2: my own just sort of, you know, to take in

804
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 2: as much African music as I can.

805
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 1: So to what degree on your travels have you been

806
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 1: afraid or unafraid for your personal safety?

807
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 2: Oh, you know, I've been afraid in places when I traveled.

808
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 2: When I lived in Asia in the eighties or the seventies,

809
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 2: I should say, in Afghanistan, which people now say, you know,

810
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: the tourists, there was hardly any tourists. It was an

811
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 2: exotic play. It was open that people really friendly and hospitable.

812
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 2: People think of it as a place of continuous war.

813
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 2: They had had fifty years of peace. It was the

814
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 2: tourist posters. Weren't many tourists who said, visit Afghanistan and

815
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 2: see the world's friendliest people. That's not the last thing

816
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 2: most people would think these days. But if you were there,

817
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 2: it was like that all kinds of young Westerners would

818
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 2: pass through there. In those days. That was who the

819
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 2: primary tourists were, and it was everyone whoever went through there,

820
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,879
Speaker 2: you know, basically had a good experience. When I went back.

821
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 2: I went back for twelve years in and out to

822
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 2: work for this TV station there, which I really did enjoy. Yeah,

823
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 2: it was dangerous because there would be the Taliban. There

824
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 2: was an insurgency fighting, so you would feel, you know,

825
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 2: you would have to drive fast at nights, so you

826
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,959
Speaker 2: wouldn't get stopped by some kidnapping group, or there would

827
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 2: be a bomb suicide bombers here or there, and you know,

828
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:56,720
Speaker 2: you're always sort of filled with adrenaline. But I didn't

829
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:01,359
Speaker 2: really feel for my personal safety much in the seventies,

830
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 2: more later on in Africa, not really. You know, things

831
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: are a lot safer than people think. They may look

832
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 2: dangerous if you drop somebody into a place and it

833
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 2: looks like a little shady and dangerous, but you know,

834
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 2: and in the seventies, the most dangerous place in the

835
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 2: world's New York City. I mean my friends in Afghanistan.

836
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 2: I say, well, come on, New York, it's great, and

837
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 2: you go, no, that's crazy. I've seen what's going on

838
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 2: over there. I'm you're not going to get me near

839
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 2: New York. Too dangerous for me. The tables have turned now,

840
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 2: but I haven't been plagued with fears for my own

841
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 2: safety too much.

842
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: Where have you not been that you would like to go?

843
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 2: I was talking about that last I'd like to go

844
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 2: to Tasmania. Have you ever been there? You've been to Australia, right.

845
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 1: I've been in Australia a couple of times, have not

846
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 1: been to Tasmania.

847
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: I'd like to go there. I've only been in Australia once.

848
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 2: I'd like to go to New Zealand. I've never been there.

849
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 2: I'd like to go. I haven't really dug a deep pole,

850
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 2: and I'd like to really slower Argentina. Now that they

851
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 2: got all this American money, you must have been out

852
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 2: and bathe and some of that. I've never been really

853
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 2: down to Patagonia. I've never been to southern Chile. You know,

854
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,760
Speaker 2: there's a bunch of spots, haven't There's a plus spots

855
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 2: I want to kind of feel. And I just went

856
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 2: to Taiwan with some I have this group of people

857
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 2: I kind of travel with, you know, we kind of

858
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 2: took go to places. We went to Taiwan in the fall,

859
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 2: I mean in the spring, and it was fantastic. I

860
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 2: had no idea it was such a beautiful island. We

861
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 2: wanted to get over there before the Chinese took it over.

862
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 2: And you go there and you come back with a

863
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 2: whole different impression. Number One, the natural beauty is just

864
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 2: you know, on the in the eastern part of Taiwan,

865
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 2: it's like it's like you can drive four or five

866
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 2: hours and almost not see another house. It's kind of

867
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:45,240
Speaker 2: subtropical jungle, just fantastic. And the food's really good because

868
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 2: when Shanghai Check came over at the end of the

869
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:52,240
Speaker 2: Chinese Civil War, all the rich people came to Taiwan

870
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 2: and they brought all their chefs with them. So the

871
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 2: level of food excellence in Taiwan is not to be

872
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 2: surpassed mainland. Maybe these days, I don't know, but that

873
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 2: was an interesting tripper. We go to Georgia, you know,

874
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,040
Speaker 2: down there, not the one in America, but the one

875
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 2: down there on the southern belt of Russia where Stalin

876
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 2: was from. And so I try and keep an arm

877
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 2: in the fire and that keeps me excited. And every

878
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: time I go to Africa, I try to go to

879
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 2: a couple of new places.

880
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,280
Speaker 1: So when you have this group, how many people go.

881
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 2: There's like four or five of us. There's this guy,

882
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 2: Sad Mussin, who's an incredible guy. You would love him.

883
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 2: He's the guy who convinced me to come back to Afghanistan.

884
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,280
Speaker 2: He's the most optimistic man I ever met. He's probably

885
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 2: in his mid fifties now. He's the guy who started

886
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 2: the first private TV and radio stations in Afghanistan after

887
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 2: the fall of the Taliban, and he's living in London

888
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 2: now London in Dubai, and we'd like to go. We

889
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 2: went to Yemen, we traveled so much. So he's a

890
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 2: great travel partner, as is this guy Jonathan Branstein, who

891
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 2: turned out the guy who got me into Qbe but

892
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 2: had also been to Malley Molly got me into the

893
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 2: festival in the desert. You know, he's an eccentric traveler.

894
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,479
Speaker 2: And then I have this friend from Yemen whose father

895
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 2: used to be president of Yemen. He now lives in

896
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: the UAE. He's in the group. And then there's these

897
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 2: two American guys who have a company called Zeba who

898
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 2: who that make really good fruits and nuts from Afghanistan.

899
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 2: They're still doing business there and they live in Lake Como,

900
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 2: which is always nice to visit, and they have this

901
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 2: kind of thriving business even now. In the age of

902
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 2: the Taliban, Afghanistan was famous for nuts and pomegranates and grapes,

903
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,000
Speaker 2: so they put them in really kind of sexy looking,

904
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 2: great packaging sell them. It's a whole soul in the

905
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 2: Arawan and whole foods and those kind of grocers. But

906
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 2: these guys like to travel and they're really good at it.

907
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 2: So these are and we like to hike. So hiking

908
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 2: becomes like, you know, we go to a place where

909
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 2: you can, you know, hike up in the mountains and

910
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 2: have some nice, nice traveling around, seeing the nightclubs.

911
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: Everybody's got a different traveling style. Some people their ideas

912
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 1: get a great hotel room, have service. Other people want

913
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:07,240
Speaker 1: to go see the historical sites, the museums. You mentioned

914
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 1: the nightclubs. What kind of traveler are you?

915
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 2: Well, I don't mind a good hotel, you know, if

916
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 2: I was, it depends if I'm taking a trip somewhere.

917
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 2: I mean, it's nothing like a nice hotel. I don't

918
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 2: want to stay. I mean I've stayed believe me, Bob,

919
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 2: I have stayed in my share fleabag hotels. I mean,

920
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 2: you know, I don't. I don't even go into it.

921
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 2: But you know, we go out now. I mean, we're

922
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,040
Speaker 2: all kind of grown up, so we can afford a

923
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 2: decent hotel. And if there's a great hotel nearby and

924
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 2: it's not an armen leg, I would like to stay

925
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 2: there too. But a lot of it isn't you know,

926
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,320
Speaker 2: if there's a national museum that sounds really cool, unique,

927
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 2: like there wasn't Taiwan, you'd go there. But I much

928
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 2: prefer being outside looking at scene, re hiking and trying

929
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:51,720
Speaker 2: to get a sense of the vibe at the place.

930
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 2: And you know, I'd like to always investigate them. Whatever

931
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 2: the music scene is. That for me is a thrill.

932
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,880
Speaker 2: But it isn't like I mean, I'm fully capable of

933
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: packing up and trying to someone says, come to the

934
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,359
Speaker 2: Caribbean for a week, I have a house stay with us.

935
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 2: I say, that sounds good. I can do that.

936
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 1: You know.

937
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 2: I like going to California in the winter. You know,

938
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 2: to me, that's traveling. I love. I love the Santa

939
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 2: Barbara area. I just I've had a home up there

940
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 2: for twenty years, and you know it's beautiful. Of course,

941
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 2: now i just got eight or nine inches of rain,

942
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 2: so I'm just wondering if my house has kind of

943
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 2: washed away again. It's I don't know what happened to California, Bob.

944
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 2: It used to be beautiful every day, and now if

945
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:39,320
Speaker 2: it isn't a wildfire, it's a flood, it's a debris flow,

946
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 2: it's a mud slide, it's like you're on the edge

947
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 2: of your seat. It's like it cats your adjuta.

948
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,800
Speaker 1: You know, you know it's harder when you're not here.

949
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: It's certainly rained these past few days in terms of

950
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: deleterious effects, fewer than I've ever seen. In terms of

951
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:00,040
Speaker 1: major rain. I didn't go to visit your house. I

952
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:01,240
Speaker 1: don't know what it's like there.

953
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 2: Mine. Mine's turned out okay, and I couldn't believe it. Again,

954
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 2: over two inches of rain a day, and I thought

955
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 2: it'd be and I had this guy go check it out.

956
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 2: He says, you know, everything's okay, no leaks and no mudslives,

957
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 2: and I almost couldn't believe it. So I'm yeah, you're right.

958
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 2: I'm back here thinking the worst. And I don't know why.

959
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 2: It seems like there was good every No one really

960
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 2: had any major damage.

961
00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:24,359
Speaker 1: No, we traditionally have this mud problem from the hill

962
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 1: behind our house. We put up, you know, a very

963
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 1: small fence, but nothing came through. I mean this, this

964
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:36,720
Speaker 1: speaks to a completely different issue, which is perception. I mean,

965
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 1: when you ran MTV, it was a monoculture. If you

966
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 1: put an act on, they were known all over the world.

967
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 1: Now you know California's pejorative. You know, I saw this

968
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: great video where someone went to a business conference in

969
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 1: you know, North Carolina, and the legitimate people they are saying,

970
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 1: what about the twenty five dollars Hamburgers? You know, what

971
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 1: about everybody? Can your kid go to school without a gun?

972
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,799
Speaker 1: You know, everybody thinks it's a hell hole, where as

973
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 1: we're living here. It's kind of a joke. Listen. It's

974
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,319
Speaker 1: just like you're saying, there were all these places that

975
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 1: were off the grid. Is there any place that's off

976
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 1: the grid anymore?

977
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 2: No? I mean, yeah, if there is one, someone's gonna

978
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 2: go there and put on Instagram and it'll be on

979
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 2: the grid in a bad way before you know it.

980
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 2: You know, but what you're saying is right. Like when

981
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 2: I lived in Afghanistan, people say, oh man, you must

982
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 2: be on the edge of your seat all the time.

983
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 2: Like people are living like normal lives pretty most of

984
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 2: the time. You know, it's not like that. I mean,

985
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 2: there may be a bomb on the other side of

986
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:37,439
Speaker 2: the toath I can bear route, but you know, two

987
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 2: blocks away, everything's kind of normal. It's really kind of bizarre.

988
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 2: And California is that way everybody think is gonna be

989
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 2: just filled with homeless people. And but when you're even me,

990
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,280
Speaker 2: who's experienced and spent a lot of time in California,

991
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,800
Speaker 2: now I'm thinking, oh man, it's like I'm going to

992
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:54,240
Speaker 2: wash into the sea, because you know, the media blows

993
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 2: it up and I have all these websites. I go

994
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 2: to the show rain gages and so forth.

995
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, well I remember in the nineties, couple times

996
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 1: we're rain this hard for a week straight. You could bear,

997
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: you know, you left your house, you would drive through

998
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 1: big puddles. You worry about your engine getting wet. I'm

999
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 1: not saying that there's not global warming. That there is,

1000
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:19,879
Speaker 1: but I mean it's kind of funny again, way a

1001
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: point here, but I had to go out a number

1002
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 1: of times during the rain. Nobody's out. It's like on

1003
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,279
Speaker 1: the East Coast, you tell people I didn't leave the

1004
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 1: house because it was raining. They would have no idea

1005
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:34,879
Speaker 1: if it was snowing maybe, but here it's raining. People

1006
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 1: are staying home.

1007
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and fantasy they don't know how to drive in

1008
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,359
Speaker 2: the rain. Yeah, lots as durable as the East Coast

1009
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 2: people with this stuff.

1010
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:54,919
Speaker 1: So you were in business school, you get a gig

1011
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 1: at an advertising agency, you speak with this woman you

1012
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 1: know who's in Europe and you drop out? How hard?

1013
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: You know, Listen, the nature of being good in school

1014
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:09,239
Speaker 1: is perseverance, staying the course. You go to college, you

1015
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 1: go to graduate school, and all of a sudden you

1016
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 1: jump the track. I mean, how hard a decision was that?

1017
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: What'd your parents say?

1018
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:18,800
Speaker 2: It was so easy? You know, you got to remember,

1019
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 2: you may remember of the era was like this is

1020
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 2: now nineteen seventy one, seventy two. Freedom was in the air.

1021
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 2: Every time you listen to a song is about going

1022
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 2: down a highway or hitting the road. I remember always

1023
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 2: just listening all that time to Joni Mitchell's International Adventures

1024
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:37,040
Speaker 2: in Blue, and I'm thinking I get part of that.

1025
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 2: I mean, every time I go to the movies, it's

1026
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 2: like I'm seeing walk about or and I'm alienated in

1027
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 2: my work. And the idea that I'm going to spend

1028
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 2: my precious time selling fucking toilet paper. That was like

1029
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,280
Speaker 2: a line too far. You know, I was already annoyed

1030
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 2: when they had me on Gi Joe, But now toilet paper.

1031
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 2: I just and then this woman made me this ears proposition.

1032
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 2: Quit your job, fuck it, you know you'll do something.

1033
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,360
Speaker 2: Come with me, Let's go on an adventure. Let's go

1034
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 2: on an adventure. Let's hitchhike down to all the way

1035
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:15,720
Speaker 2: down to Morocco across the Sahara Desert. And I said, oh, yeah,

1036
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 2: that sounds fantastic. I was on a plane like a

1037
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 2: week later, and I was gone for a year, and

1038
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 2: it was like the defining year of my life, essentially,

1039
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 2: and I really wasn't worried like you would be today.

1040
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:30,759
Speaker 2: Like someone was asking me that I got to go

1041
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:33,120
Speaker 2: to the book party tomorrow night and it's going to

1042
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 2: be a lot of young people, and said, you know,

1043
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,400
Speaker 2: your book could be inspiring to young people, because today

1044
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 2: young people they all have these panic attacks and they

1045
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:42,560
Speaker 2: have depression, and they're afraid to take moves, and they're

1046
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 2: stuck in their ways and they think if they do

1047
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:46,800
Speaker 2: this or do that, they're never going to get hired again.

1048
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:49,840
Speaker 2: And tell them it ain't true. And it's hard to

1049
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 2: tell them because the situations are different and everyone's different.

1050
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 2: But for me, I never I mean I was never

1051
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 2: chasing Big Bucks and I wanted to. I was very

1052
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 2: much under the influence of the beats. I was in

1053
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 2: the countercultural flow. The idea that I was even in

1054
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 2: an ad agency. Kind of irritated me a bit, but

1055
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 2: I had saved some money. I figured I'd do it

1056
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 2: for a year. I had a plane ticket that was

1057
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:17,600
Speaker 2: good for exactly a year. I came back in exactly

1058
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 2: the last day, and I would see what I found

1059
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 2: and maybe, oh, new doors would open. And it was

1060
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,839
Speaker 2: the most valuable year to do it. And admittedly it

1061
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 2: was a good time to do it. In that time.

1062
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:34,239
Speaker 2: You know, you can go anywhere. Iran and Lebanon, those

1063
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 2: were like party places. I mean, the world is a lot,

1064
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:41,799
Speaker 2: you know, more fucked up now. So I never didn't

1065
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 2: cross my mind not to do it. It did I

1066
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:45,719
Speaker 2: told my parents because they I had already spent a

1067
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 2: year off before I took this job. I got out

1068
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 2: of graduate school and I was a bartender or everywhere,

1069
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 2: and I learned that trade and moving around. I had.

1070
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 2: I had it in my bone somehow, and it was

1071
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 2: about I'd rather trade experience for money, and I figured

1072
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,280
Speaker 2: I could always come back. I'm like, I'm thinking myself

1073
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:08,399
Speaker 2: as like a jazz sportet. I could improvise my way

1074
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 2: into something or other. I'm not going to starve to death,

1075
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 2: and I'm not going to think I'm like in a

1076
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 2: formal orchestra and I have to go on some straight

1077
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 2: line that some conveyor belt that other people were doing.

1078
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 2: And it was in the air. I mean, I wasn't

1079
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 2: the only guy. I mean America, people would quit and

1080
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:32,360
Speaker 2: go to somewhere in Vermont and northern California to communes

1081
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 2: and like make furniture whatever they're doing. But in Europe

1082
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:38,880
Speaker 2: people would like to hit the road, like they had

1083
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 2: this thing, the hippie trail, you know, all through all

1084
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 2: these lower cost countries in Africa and in Asia. It

1085
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 2: was exhilarating. That was fantastic, you know, And I wanted

1086
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 2: to stay. That's why I started this business. I wanted

1087
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 2: to stay and live out there. I'd stay there for

1088
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 2: eight years. I said, this is like I lived so

1089
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 2: vividly and I feel so alive here. Why would I

1090
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 2: want to, you know, go back. I almost love being

1091
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:05,720
Speaker 2: in a place where I felt no one would ever

1092
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 2: find me. Here. I'm going to, like, you know, kind

1093
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:11,280
Speaker 2: of figure my way out. I'm learning a little language,

1094
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 2: make some friends, and it's a good challenge. I don't know,

1095
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 2: Wanderluss whatever it is it was, but it was exhilarating.

1096
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 1: This clothing company. Was it a light bulb that went

1097
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 1: off in your head when you were there seeing things

1098
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 1: or was it more of the reverse. This is the

1099
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 1: lifestyle I want. How can I support it?

1100
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you. I am. After I was traveling

1101
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 2: with this woman for a couple months, she had to

1102
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 2: go back for a job, so I kept going. I

1103
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 2: hitchhiked all over Africa and I at one point I

1104
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 2: landed in Greece and I go to This is like

1105
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two. So the night they broke into the watergate,

1106
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 2: I landed in Michinos. And then it wasn't like some

1107
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 2: you know, overly tourists at Greek Island. I was beautiful.

1108
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 2: I thought I was stepping into a postcard. And they

1109
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 2: had this beach there, this naked beach called Paradise Beach,

1110
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,320
Speaker 2: which now is a big nightclub. But then it was

1111
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 2: like these two guys had at taverna and I was

1112
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 2: in there one day and I see this little girl,

1113
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 2: not a little girl, she's a woman, young woman, and

1114
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 2: she was selling all these kind of beachy clothes to

1115
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:20,720
Speaker 2: German and tourists and so forth, and I got to

1116
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 2: see her. Everone was like a frenzy. She had them

1117
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:25,919
Speaker 2: in these trunks and I had Indian deities painted on them,

1118
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 2: and she was making them fortune. And I went up

1119
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 2: to her afterwards. I said, that was really something. What's

1120
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 2: the story. Where do you get all this stuff? She say, well,

1121
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 2: I've been living in Katmandu for four years and I

1122
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 2: design and make my own clothes. I do all this

1123
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 2: stuff and then I pack it up in these trunks

1124
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 2: and I take it overland from the Pole through India, Pakistan,

1125
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 2: I ran Turkey, and I end up in Italy and

1126
00:59:47,600 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 2: Greece and sell it right to the customers, her own

1127
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,560
Speaker 2: little vertical, integrated like enterprise. And I live in katman

1128
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 2: Do I have a fantastic house. I have servants, I

1129
00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 2: throw parties. I go surfing in Sri Lanka. I ride

1130
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:04,479
Speaker 2: horses in Afghanistan. India is the greatest show on earth, Tom,

1131
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:08,560
Speaker 2: you really should go. So I said, Wow, that's fantastic.

1132
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 2: So that kind of set set me to go to India.

1133
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 2: I wanted. It was a very spiritual center in those days,

1134
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 2: and I started thinking, if she's doing that, and I've

1135
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 2: seen all this crappy clothing that was being made in

1136
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 2: Morocco and cheap stuff from India. What if I toned

1137
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 2: it up a bit. I knew nothing about this business,

1138
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 2: mind you, But if I, let say, I got a

1139
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 2: designer and we could make stuff that was of higher

1140
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 2: quality because the cost differences were great, air freight was

1141
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 2: just beginning. I could sell it to coholesale stores and

1142
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 2: boutiques which were now beginning to be this new thing.

1143
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 2: Everyone's opening these boutiques, and I could give it a shot.

1144
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:46,520
Speaker 2: And you know, and I would always think, well, that

1145
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 2: way I could live in I'll get a house in India.

1146
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 2: I'll live in house in India, and I'll find some

1147
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 2: partners who I could trust and be good, and we

1148
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 2: could make something for five dollars in New Delhi and

1149
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:00,200
Speaker 2: put it on a plane in twenty four hours later,

1150
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 2: I could sell it for twenty five dollars in Manhattan.

1151
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 2: And I basically did that. It ended up being the

1152
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 2: hardest job I ever had in my life, and it

1153
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 2: was very satisfied. I was a millionaire. I mean it is,

1154
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:13,440
Speaker 2: I had a partner, and next thing I know, I'm

1155
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 2: a fucking My parents thought I was crazy, but it was.

1156
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 2: We really did really well. We'd be in vogue in

1157
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 2: women's Wear Daily and Mademoiselle magazine, and it was a

1158
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 2: lot of work. We had cash flow problems. You know,

1159
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 2: it got more difficult, but we grew every year. And

1160
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 2: I imagine, Bob, I imagine this is the life for me.

1161
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:37,520
Speaker 2: I didn't want to be a big garmento, but I

1162
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 2: would always be available to take these side trips, like

1163
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 2: I would round up people in Afghanistan. I'd rent a bus,

1164
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 2: we'd all go on some kind of adventure. I would think,

1165
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 2: this is what I'm going to do. This is so

1166
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 2: it's so exotic and so real, and I'm living a

1167
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 2: life that no one at home could imagine. And then

1168
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 2: it all came crashing down. So I had to reinvent

1169
01:01:57,160 --> 01:01:59,520
Speaker 2: myself again, and I ended up like in a really

1170
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 2: safe heart. We're at a lucky time, and you know,

1171
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:04,480
Speaker 2: timing is everything. The job I got at the company

1172
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:06,360
Speaker 2: that would become MTV, if I had been there a

1173
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 2: month later or a month earlier, I wouldn't have gotten it. Now.

1174
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 2: I just happened to show up when they said we

1175
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:12,680
Speaker 2: got to hire a lot of people who don't have

1176
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:15,400
Speaker 2: any experience in television, for which I was a primer,

1177
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 2: a perfect candidate.

1178
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:22,560
Speaker 1: You mentioned this Afghanistan renting a bus And there are

1179
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 1: a couple of other times with the same behavior in

1180
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 1: the book. Are you like the ring leader type? Are

1181
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:33,120
Speaker 1: you say, Okay, this is what we're doing. We're getting

1182
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 1: everybody together and you're the cheerleader and you take them.

1183
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 1: Were those anomalous?

1184
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:40,320
Speaker 2: I wouldn't do that a few times? You know? I

1185
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 2: mean there was a really I had a really great

1186
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:45,280
Speaker 2: group of friends there, and I just thought that it

1187
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:46,880
Speaker 2: was a big thing in the north of the country

1188
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 2: every New Year's which for them is like the Spring

1189
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 2: Equinox March twenty one. So I rented a bus and

1190
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 2: I loaded up with people and you know, we kind

1191
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:58,360
Speaker 2: of split some expenses and I took out, rented this hotel,

1192
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 2: we all pay for our rooms, and we took off

1193
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 2: on this big road trip just like you know, eighteen

1194
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:05,760
Speaker 2: hour journey up through the Hindukush Mountains and back down

1195
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:09,000
Speaker 2: and Steven's Piscashi game. I meet the governor of the

1196
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:13,400
Speaker 2: province and vices to the palace and shows. You know,

1197
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:16,080
Speaker 2: they had a whole thing there for their New year celebration,

1198
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 2: and we looked like we looked like we were off

1199
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 2: of Jimi Hendrix's album cup. You know, everybody is dressed

1200
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:24,760
Speaker 2: up in shawls and all this habitdash Ree and these

1201
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 2: girls who were designers. It was a great gang. And

1202
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 2: people who kind of had been bidden by the same

1203
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 2: bug as myself, who couldn't be They thought living in

1204
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 2: Kabble was like fantastic. It was like this fantasy we

1205
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 2: were living that nobody else knew anything about. It was

1206
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:42,920
Speaker 2: it was a magic time.

1207
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 1: To what degree have you run into those people, the

1208
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 1: pre MTV, the wanderlust people. Have you run into them

1209
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 1: or kept up with them later in life?

1210
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:59,440
Speaker 2: Yeah? My designer Jill Lumpkin, who you wrote about in

1211
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 2: Your Peace, she still lives in Bangalore. It's not called Belarub.

1212
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 2: I mean, they've changed the name, but she's still living

1213
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 2: in India. Fifty years later. The guy who was my

1214
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:15,240
Speaker 2: partner's nephew, We were his mentor. He became a real

1215
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:18,840
Speaker 2: estate maven, building big apartment buildings and hotels at a

1216
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 2: private jet. He was doing better than anybody. He gave

1217
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:23,640
Speaker 2: Jill an apartment in Bangalore, like a three bedroom apartment

1218
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 2: in a modern complex with a pool and a gym.

1219
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 2: It's like living somewhere in you know, somewhere in the States.

1220
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 2: She still lives there, has her social Security check wire

1221
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:36,120
Speaker 2: to India every month, and she couldn't be happier to

1222
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 2: still be there.

1223
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:37,440
Speaker 1: I was.

1224
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:39,200
Speaker 2: I usually worried about it if she would adjust to

1225
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 2: life there, But she's out on me. And there would

1226
01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 2: be other people like even now, some of my closest

1227
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 2: friends are from my second round in Afghanistan. These people

1228
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:52,360
Speaker 2: that I would meet, like who were in Cobbled during

1229
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:58,440
Speaker 2: the who were war journalists, you know, Richard Engel or

1230
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:01,440
Speaker 2: Dexter Filkins, these guys who were kind of stars to me.

1231
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:03,560
Speaker 2: They were like the rock stars to me in a way,

1232
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:07,560
Speaker 2: who were out there and I admired what they did.

1233
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:09,720
Speaker 2: We still kind of hang out and we're all still

1234
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:12,560
Speaker 2: in touch, and there's like someone gets married from this

1235
01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:15,080
Speaker 2: group and everybody goes, and it's like a reunion. I

1236
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:18,760
Speaker 2: just just this fellow I knew, Oza Mahmed, who was

1237
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 2: this American guy of Pakistani descent. He got a he

1238
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 2: won a Pulitzer Prize New York Time bureau chief in

1239
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:30,200
Speaker 2: Afghanistan and then bureau chief in Mexico City, and he

1240
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 2: got married and Lisbon and everybody went. It was like

1241
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:34,680
Speaker 2: a reunion of the good old the good old days

1242
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:39,720
Speaker 2: in the war zone of you know, twenty ten to fifteen. Yeah,

1243
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:40,919
Speaker 2: those were heady times too.

1244
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:44,680
Speaker 1: Okay. Tom Rush is a friend of mine and he

1245
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:47,720
Speaker 1: mentions this old girlfriend. And the funny thing about it is,

1246
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 1: anybody else would say, oh, I had this old girlfriend whatever.

1247
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:55,920
Speaker 1: Not only is it Jill, It's always Jill Lumpkin of course,

1248
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,920
Speaker 1: which is a unique name. And I've heard all the

1249
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:02,040
Speaker 1: stories her flying back to New York and no regrets

1250
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 1: on the album. Well, all of a sudden she shows

1251
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 1: up in your book. What is so special about this woman?

1252
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, you got to realize because I

1253
01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:14,960
Speaker 2: was reading, I get online this paper from a Monacito,

1254
01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:18,240
Speaker 2: Montecito journal, whatever it is. I see that Tom Rush

1255
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:23,120
Speaker 2: and Judy Collins are playing tonight right at the Libero

1256
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:27,439
Speaker 2: Theater in Santa Barbara. I'm saying, wow. And I've heard

1257
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,000
Speaker 2: him on your podcast, and I was always an admirer room.

1258
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:32,600
Speaker 2: He was the first musician I ever really met. When

1259
01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:34,200
Speaker 2: I was in college. I did a show and I

1260
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:38,880
Speaker 2: booked him. I was sort of an entrepreneur. And anyway,

1261
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:42,400
Speaker 2: what's so special about Jill? Well, at the time, Jill

1262
01:06:42,600 --> 01:06:46,640
Speaker 2: was like this real beauty she was working at Maxis

1263
01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:49,720
Speaker 2: Kansas City in New York with this other woman who

1264
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 2: was a matress. They worked the back room. And the

1265
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:55,560
Speaker 2: other one was Helen Martin, who that wasn't her name

1266
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:58,440
Speaker 2: at the time. She married Bryce Martin, the artist, and

1267
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 2: she's now an artist herself. So that two of them

1268
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:05,920
Speaker 2: were these high cheekbone thin waf looking model like really

1269
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:08,600
Speaker 2: cool chicks, really right out of the boat. You know.

1270
01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:11,160
Speaker 2: You look up Bohemian in the dictionary and it's them.

1271
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:14,720
Speaker 2: And she had this cool aura about her. I mean,

1272
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:20,240
Speaker 2: as I said in the book, she was like the coolest,

1273
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 2: freest spirit I'd ever met in my life. I mean,

1274
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 2: she just didn't care. And through her I met all

1275
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:30,000
Speaker 2: kinds of interesting characters. And in both Cobblin and Delhi,

1276
01:07:30,640 --> 01:07:33,040
Speaker 2: she had a tendency. You know, she was very social,

1277
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 2: she was very beautiful. Tom Russe really had a thing

1278
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 2: about her. Evidently they still communicate. She calls them Tommy,

1279
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:43,080
Speaker 2: Tommy's in touch this and that, you know. Now she

1280
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:46,240
Speaker 2: was going out with some guy from Pentangle, remember them.

1281
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:49,920
Speaker 2: Pentager was one of those kind of gypsy bands in

1282
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:52,920
Speaker 2: the Irritations liming with that dude Swasties.

1283
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:54,200
Speaker 1: Brute Yane people.

1284
01:07:55,640 --> 01:07:57,800
Speaker 2: She had a thing for this guy, you know she

1285
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:02,120
Speaker 2: But we were together for shit eight years seven and

1286
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:04,920
Speaker 2: now six seven years, and you know we never were

1287
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:08,560
Speaker 2: an item ourselves, but I always enjoyed her, and she

1288
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:12,040
Speaker 2: was a magnet for interesting people. And yeah, her and

1289
01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:16,200
Speaker 2: Tom Rush were He was really taken with her. She was,

1290
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:18,639
Speaker 2: I mean, she still is beautiful, but I mean now

1291
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 2: she's like my age. I mean, you know, she's getting

1292
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:26,920
Speaker 2: herself a security check wired to India, and you know,

1293
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:29,920
Speaker 2: I'd love to have been there and seen Tom Rush

1294
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:32,640
Speaker 2: play tonight. I met He'd never remember. I think I

1295
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:35,920
Speaker 2: met him in nineteen sixty four or five, but he

1296
01:08:36,040 --> 01:08:37,880
Speaker 2: was a striking character in those days.

1297
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:42,719
Speaker 1: So in the book, you say, I have this idea,

1298
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 1: I'm going to sell slightly more upskilled than the usual

1299
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:50,439
Speaker 1: item to boutiques. Then all of a sudden, you're selling

1300
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 1: to Bloomingdale's Involved. That doesn't happen by accident. How did

1301
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:55,960
Speaker 1: all that happen?

1302
01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:59,680
Speaker 2: Well, we had good stuff, and I had contacts. I mean,

1303
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:03,320
Speaker 2: I this girl Sidney Bachmann from Martha's Vineyard where I

1304
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:06,599
Speaker 2: was a bartender and my partner had a house there.

1305
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:09,360
Speaker 2: The guy who became my partner and Sydney was the

1306
01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:12,000
Speaker 2: head of the fashion office, which like a key position

1307
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 2: at the key retailer of the era, and she loved

1308
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:17,519
Speaker 2: what we did to the point where she would give

1309
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:19,479
Speaker 2: me stuff say, you know, basically, knock this off and

1310
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:21,840
Speaker 2: I'll get a whole bunch of it. So we were

1311
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:24,559
Speaker 2: always Bloomingdale's was always our biggest customer, but we also

1312
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:28,360
Speaker 2: sold to Bendel's, which was another like powerhouse fashion forward operation,

1313
01:09:29,200 --> 01:09:31,880
Speaker 2: Macy's and you know, major stores, but a lot of

1314
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:34,960
Speaker 2: it was in you know, there was a real boutique

1315
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 2: store kind of you know, there was a lot of them,

1316
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:41,160
Speaker 2: and they We used to have a thing called the

1317
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:44,920
Speaker 2: Boutique Show at the old McAlpin Hotel, which was like

1318
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:47,519
Speaker 2: some kind of Renaissance fare that would happen twice a

1319
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:49,439
Speaker 2: year and you would go and you would be able

1320
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:52,760
Speaker 2: to Celtics. People had stores in Florida or California or

1321
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:55,559
Speaker 2: what have you. So it was hard work. I set

1322
01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:58,160
Speaker 2: up a showroom in New York, hire someone to run it,

1323
01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:00,560
Speaker 2: and we have buyers come in and we were I

1324
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 2: knew women who worked at these as fashion editors, so

1325
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:08,759
Speaker 2: I could get I had more than an average chance.

1326
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:11,080
Speaker 2: It's like getting a record on the radio. I had

1327
01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:13,920
Speaker 2: more than an average chance of getting some editorial coverage

1328
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:16,519
Speaker 2: in Vogue or Mademoiselle or Glamour or one of those.

1329
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:21,080
Speaker 2: Essence and buyers would come in and everyone's always looking for, like,

1330
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:24,400
Speaker 2: what's the cool new place that hasn't been ruined yet

1331
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:27,479
Speaker 2: tourism wise, what's that place? Well, what's a cool new

1332
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:29,880
Speaker 2: company that no one knows anything about. It's sort of

1333
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:32,599
Speaker 2: under the radar, but they're doing something really good. And

1334
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:37,080
Speaker 2: we were that for a while. So that's how, you know,

1335
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 2: we kind of boosted our sales. It was through connections

1336
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:41,960
Speaker 2: I had and the product that was good, and the

1337
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:46,360
Speaker 2: word of mouth, and you know, we went we went viral.

1338
01:10:46,439 --> 01:10:57,840
Speaker 1: Bob Okay, did you know how to run it and

1339
01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:00,439
Speaker 1: how to price it because you'd been to business school?

1340
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:03,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, that helped a lot. I mean, my skills helped

1341
01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:05,479
Speaker 2: a lot there. You know, we used to have a

1342
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:09,200
Speaker 2: thing of whatever our landed cost was. If you pay

1343
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:11,280
Speaker 2: some for four dollars, by the time you pay the

1344
01:11:11,320 --> 01:11:14,439
Speaker 2: tariff in the air freight, it's like six dollars. Well,

1345
01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 2: I'll sell it for twelve dollars, knowing that the retail

1346
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:20,360
Speaker 2: will probably sell it for twenty four dollars. But you know,

1347
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:23,160
Speaker 2: the business as we got bigger, got more complicated because

1348
01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:25,480
Speaker 2: when you sell to big stores, they take a discount.

1349
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:28,560
Speaker 2: If you got an agent in la he wants a commission,

1350
01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:31,880
Speaker 2: and then people who are in the big stores they

1351
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:34,240
Speaker 2: don't pay it for a long time. So you might

1352
01:11:34,280 --> 01:11:37,640
Speaker 2: be a millionaire on paper, which we were, but you

1353
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:41,120
Speaker 2: don't have any money. It's all tied up in receivables.

1354
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:45,160
Speaker 2: It's all tied up in inventory. Never you're always trying

1355
01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:47,520
Speaker 2: to get your head above water. You're sort of basically

1356
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:49,240
Speaker 2: just hanging on. I know that's the thing that a

1357
01:11:49,240 --> 01:11:51,479
Speaker 2: lot of people are going through today with Trump's tariffs.

1358
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:54,160
Speaker 2: I mean, things were already bad enough for these folks

1359
01:11:54,200 --> 01:11:57,240
Speaker 2: and they're getting squeezed on pricing by competitors now they

1360
01:11:57,320 --> 01:12:02,400
Speaker 2: got Yeah. But anyway, I'm having a business background and

1361
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:05,479
Speaker 2: a business orientation was really important and it kind of

1362
01:12:05,520 --> 01:12:07,800
Speaker 2: set me apart. We were like the only kind of

1363
01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:11,599
Speaker 2: Western people who own companies like this who were doing it,

1364
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:16,519
Speaker 2: which also brought me a bit of an advantage. So yeah,

1365
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:20,760
Speaker 2: I was putting my uh my business degree to good use,

1366
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:24,960
Speaker 2: which which which which was a big solace to my

1367
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:30,040
Speaker 2: beleaguered parents who kept thinking, why are you gonna get

1368
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:32,080
Speaker 2: a job and do something? Because when I came back

1369
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:34,320
Speaker 2: from India after being gone a year and they said,

1370
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:35,280
Speaker 2: what are you going to do? I said, I'm going

1371
01:12:35,320 --> 01:12:37,200
Speaker 2: to start a business. You know, I got a box

1372
01:12:37,240 --> 01:12:39,400
Speaker 2: of these shirts and I'm going to drive it around

1373
01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:42,439
Speaker 2: in a Volkswagen see if there's a market forum. And

1374
01:12:42,479 --> 01:12:45,840
Speaker 2: then when we became successful, they were like, wow, I

1375
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:47,679
Speaker 2: had to give it to my parents. They were patient

1376
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:50,679
Speaker 2: and supported me. I was on a mission.

1377
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:56,679
Speaker 1: Okay, So what did you learn in business school?

1378
01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:01,559
Speaker 2: Well, you know, you take think first of all, I

1379
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:05,839
Speaker 2: went there. This will sound really dumb. This sounds really dumb.

1380
01:13:06,160 --> 01:13:08,559
Speaker 2: So I'm in college. I'm a senior in college. I know.

1381
01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:12,000
Speaker 2: You know, the draft now was like forty fifty thousand

1382
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:15,200
Speaker 2: people a month. My deferment's gonna route in June. That

1383
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:17,680
Speaker 2: coming June, when I graduate, I'll be in Vietnam by

1384
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:19,280
Speaker 2: the end of the year. I knew people in the service.

1385
01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:23,519
Speaker 2: You're probably in the same situation. So what are you

1386
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:25,360
Speaker 2: gonna do. People gonna go to law school, going to

1387
01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:27,160
Speaker 2: go to be a doctor, a dentist. I'm not going

1388
01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:29,160
Speaker 2: to be a doctor or dentist or a lawyer. But

1389
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:32,640
Speaker 2: someone says, go to business school. I'm so dumb. I

1390
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:34,840
Speaker 2: didn't even know there was a thing as a business Wait.

1391
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:38,080
Speaker 1: Wait, I graduated. I had no idea there was anything

1392
01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:40,880
Speaker 1: such as an NBA, and I didn't know for years.

1393
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:45,360
Speaker 2: Well, I'm the same big thing. So thank god someone

1394
01:13:45,400 --> 01:13:47,160
Speaker 2: told me. I said, why don't you go to business school.

1395
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:49,920
Speaker 2: I'm working in a school cafeteria. Go to business school.

1396
01:13:50,240 --> 01:13:53,439
Speaker 2: But there's business school, so you know. So I applied

1397
01:13:53,479 --> 01:13:55,439
Speaker 2: to NYU. I wanted to go to a city. I

1398
01:13:55,520 --> 01:13:57,360
Speaker 2: was in Vermont, and I want to buy to be

1399
01:13:57,479 --> 01:14:00,000
Speaker 2: U and NYU. That was it. And I got into NYU.

1400
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:02,920
Speaker 2: You and that that was another thing that really changed

1401
01:14:02,960 --> 01:14:04,840
Speaker 2: my life. But what I'd learned there. I had this

1402
01:14:05,320 --> 01:14:09,559
Speaker 2: professor Peter Drucker, who was sort of the management guru

1403
01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:11,400
Speaker 2: of the era. Put out a lot of books The

1404
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:13,479
Speaker 2: Age of cod Discontinent and everything. He was all about

1405
01:14:13,520 --> 01:14:17,840
Speaker 2: innovation and change, and his classes were just fantastic, and

1406
01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:20,280
Speaker 2: he real learned the key element of the business of

1407
01:14:20,320 --> 01:14:24,439
Speaker 2: the American economy is entrepreneurs creating, correcting with customers, creating

1408
01:14:24,479 --> 01:14:27,400
Speaker 2: new things. It isn't creating, it's innovating new things. He said,

1409
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:30,840
Speaker 2: someone's an inventor. They make something out of nothing. An

1410
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:33,600
Speaker 2: innovator is somebody who takes stuff that already exists and

1411
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:35,680
Speaker 2: somehow puts it together in a new way for a

1412
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:37,679
Speaker 2: new market or a new this and that. And I said,

1413
01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:41,120
Speaker 2: now that's interesting. You know, that's a place in business

1414
01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:44,400
Speaker 2: where it could be creative, It could be interesting, and

1415
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:47,000
Speaker 2: I'm going to keep my eye on that sector. You know,

1416
01:14:47,040 --> 01:14:49,920
Speaker 2: it starts small. And the other thing was always always

1417
01:14:49,920 --> 01:14:52,640
Speaker 2: look for jobs and sectors that were ascendant. You know,

1418
01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:54,880
Speaker 2: you know, you don't want to be, you know, in

1419
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:57,280
Speaker 2: the buggy business. You want to be in something that

1420
01:14:57,400 --> 01:14:59,800
Speaker 2: looks to be coming and being ascendant, which later on

1421
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:03,840
Speaker 2: my life was certainly cable television, and at one point

1422
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:07,000
Speaker 2: in my life it became importing. Importing was not a

1423
01:15:07,040 --> 01:15:09,680
Speaker 2: big thing in the seventies early seventies. That was, you

1424
01:15:09,720 --> 01:15:12,720
Speaker 2: know that the worldwide economic system was just sort of

1425
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:17,000
Speaker 2: adjusting to all this international trade. So I was really

1426
01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:21,599
Speaker 2: uh intrigued with him, and I did really well in school,

1427
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:24,440
Speaker 2: even though I had sometimes I had work into the bartender.

1428
01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:26,599
Speaker 2: I'd get out of work some nights at three am,

1429
01:15:26,680 --> 01:15:28,320
Speaker 2: but I worked my ass off. I didn't want to

1430
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:31,600
Speaker 2: get thrown out of him. If I flunked out, I

1431
01:15:31,640 --> 01:15:35,280
Speaker 2: was going to end up in Vietnam, you know. So

1432
01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:37,840
Speaker 2: I worked hard at my you know, and I had

1433
01:15:38,360 --> 01:15:41,200
Speaker 2: to hustle money because my dad's got I ended up

1434
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:43,920
Speaker 2: getting a scholarship, you know, when I was one semester in.

1435
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:46,200
Speaker 2: But I didn't really have any money to go to school.

1436
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:50,280
Speaker 2: But as you know, then school wasn't that expensive, not

1437
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:53,519
Speaker 2: compared to today. It's unbelievable, you know, for a couple

1438
01:15:53,560 --> 01:15:58,599
Speaker 2: thousand dollars a semester. You know, now you know it's

1439
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:01,479
Speaker 2: a whole other thing, which you know impacts everything else.

1440
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:06,920
Speaker 2: But yeah, I liked business school. So I got an MBA,

1441
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:10,519
Speaker 2: and then it was okay, I'm going to take I

1442
01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:13,080
Speaker 2: worked for sixteen years, eighteen years of school. I'm going

1443
01:16:13,160 --> 01:16:15,160
Speaker 2: to take a year off and drift around and try

1444
01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:16,840
Speaker 2: and keep up with some of these buddies I had

1445
01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:19,720
Speaker 2: met who had their career path was not to have

1446
01:16:19,760 --> 01:16:22,720
Speaker 2: one then their their career paths was never have a

1447
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:25,479
Speaker 2: grown up job, you know, which fits in sync with,

1448
01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:28,360
Speaker 2: you know, some of the counterculture sensibility. I was that

1449
01:16:28,479 --> 01:16:31,040
Speaker 2: was one of those guys. But I was never like,

1450
01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:34,720
Speaker 2: I never got on the spiritual thing in any kind

1451
01:16:34,720 --> 01:16:36,559
Speaker 2: of large degree. You know, I wasn't going to India

1452
01:16:36,560 --> 01:16:38,760
Speaker 2: to sit in the cave or something with some sadus.

1453
01:16:39,120 --> 01:16:41,080
Speaker 2: I was sort of on a reconnaissance mission.

1454
01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:46,880
Speaker 1: Okay, this all blows up the answer and an ad.

1455
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:52,679
Speaker 1: You go for a meeting at MTV. How exactly did

1456
01:16:52,720 --> 01:16:56,080
Speaker 1: you sell yourself? What was it about what you said

1457
01:16:56,080 --> 01:16:58,080
Speaker 1: that they said, okay, we want this guy.

1458
01:16:59,280 --> 01:17:02,840
Speaker 2: Well I got this meeting through my brother who worked

1459
01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:05,880
Speaker 2: at Columbia Records, and this guy Bob mcgrorty. And this

1460
01:17:05,920 --> 01:17:08,559
Speaker 2: is at this point in time that company had just

1461
01:17:08,640 --> 01:17:11,600
Speaker 2: started and they had Nickelodeon and the Movie Channel. The

1462
01:17:12,080 --> 01:17:14,600
Speaker 2: MTV was still an idea they talked about, but it

1463
01:17:14,640 --> 01:17:17,360
Speaker 2: hadn't been approved by the Warner Amex joint venture. They

1464
01:17:17,400 --> 01:17:20,440
Speaker 2: hadn't they So I'm just trying to get in anywhere.

1465
01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:22,760
Speaker 2: And when I went in to see him, I mean

1466
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:24,760
Speaker 2: I got a hair cut, I got a suit. I

1467
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:28,120
Speaker 2: remember buying a Georgia Armani's suit for like three hundred

1468
01:17:28,120 --> 01:17:31,880
Speaker 2: bucks down on Orchard Street. I looked really good. I

1469
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:34,760
Speaker 2: went in and my sale line was, look, you need entrepreneurs.

1470
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:37,639
Speaker 2: I'm an entrepreneur. I know it sounds weird. I lived

1471
01:17:37,680 --> 01:17:39,640
Speaker 2: in Asia for eight years, buy and large, but I

1472
01:17:39,680 --> 01:17:43,080
Speaker 2: started this company. We're a multimillion dollar company. It kind

1473
01:17:43,080 --> 01:17:46,640
Speaker 2: of went under because of a series of unfortunate events.

1474
01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:50,200
Speaker 2: But I know all about music. I'm a music fanatic,

1475
01:17:50,400 --> 01:17:53,640
Speaker 2: always have been, and I can bring a spirit to

1476
01:17:53,640 --> 01:17:56,559
Speaker 2: this place. And I have creative abilities. I worked in

1477
01:17:56,560 --> 01:18:00,439
Speaker 2: an ad agency and I had this whole portfolio of

1478
01:18:00,640 --> 01:18:02,320
Speaker 2: I really went all out. I said, this is going

1479
01:18:02,360 --> 01:18:04,080
Speaker 2: to be a protesy interview. I'm going to try and

1480
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:06,040
Speaker 2: blow it. I want to work at this company. So

1481
01:18:06,080 --> 01:18:08,760
Speaker 2: I had this portfolio of all this stuff. We had

1482
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:12,519
Speaker 2: made catalog shots with models and you know, tear sheets

1483
01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:15,680
Speaker 2: for magazines, and so I could look legitimate. I want

1484
01:18:15,680 --> 01:18:18,000
Speaker 2: to look at the I didn't appear to be legitimate,

1485
01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:19,960
Speaker 2: but I want to make myself look legitimately. So it

1486
01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:22,479
Speaker 2: goes right away. Oh, this is fantastic. I want you to

1487
01:18:22,479 --> 01:18:26,320
Speaker 2: go see my boss right away. And that's John Lack,

1488
01:18:27,080 --> 01:18:29,280
Speaker 2: who was the guy who was the originator of the

1489
01:18:29,360 --> 01:18:33,519
Speaker 2: idea of MTV. And he said to me, so, what

1490
01:18:33,560 --> 01:18:37,960
Speaker 2: were you doing in Afghanistan? You were smuggling drugs And

1491
01:18:38,400 --> 01:18:40,920
Speaker 2: he said it like it was a good thing, you know.

1492
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:43,519
Speaker 2: I said, no, not really. I wanted smuggling drugs, but

1493
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:44,840
Speaker 2: I did this and that and the other thing. And

1494
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:47,200
Speaker 2: he says, well, we're looking for people with no experience

1495
01:18:47,200 --> 01:18:50,360
Speaker 2: in television. We need people who don't have can't we

1496
01:18:50,360 --> 01:18:53,120
Speaker 2: don't need money, so we can't afford someone from NBC

1497
01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:55,800
Speaker 2: who's just going to make stuff with some independent operations.

1498
01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:57,800
Speaker 2: It's going to be expensive. We need people who can

1499
01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:00,000
Speaker 2: think out of the box. I said, well I didn't.

1500
01:19:00,280 --> 01:19:02,720
Speaker 2: I haven't even lived in a country that had television.

1501
01:19:03,080 --> 01:19:04,760
Speaker 2: But I'm this, that and the other thing. I went

1502
01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:07,080
Speaker 2: to the whole dittany. So they offered me a job

1503
01:19:07,080 --> 01:19:09,240
Speaker 2: on the spot, and I said, this is going a

1504
01:19:09,240 --> 01:19:11,960
Speaker 2: lot better than I thought. You know, I just came

1505
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:14,160
Speaker 2: in for an interview and thinking, well, well think about it.

1506
01:19:14,320 --> 01:19:16,880
Speaker 2: Maybe we'll have you back. No, take a job, and

1507
01:19:17,000 --> 01:19:20,160
Speaker 2: it's thirty five thousand dollars, take it or leave it.

1508
01:19:20,240 --> 01:19:24,280
Speaker 2: I said, come in, count me in. So that's how

1509
01:19:24,280 --> 01:19:27,040
Speaker 2: I got the job. And then like four months later

1510
01:19:27,120 --> 01:19:28,200
Speaker 2: they hire Bob Pittman.

1511
01:19:28,280 --> 01:19:31,280
Speaker 1: Wait wait before you get there, you said, but I

1512
01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:33,320
Speaker 1: got to go do something else for a month.

1513
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:36,200
Speaker 2: Right, I did? I know? I know I skipped over

1514
01:19:36,240 --> 01:19:39,000
Speaker 2: that part. I said, this is like I'm sitting there

1515
01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:41,360
Speaker 2: and going, oh my god. I've been thinking, no one's

1516
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:43,880
Speaker 2: going to hire me. I've been running around in pajamas

1517
01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:46,280
Speaker 2: for eight years, and they're going to think, who is

1518
01:19:46,320 --> 01:19:49,800
Speaker 2: this guy? He's some drug smuggler. So they hire me,

1519
01:19:50,040 --> 01:19:52,520
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, I feel this wave of legitimacy.

1520
01:19:52,600 --> 01:19:54,479
Speaker 2: And I said, well, I'd like to start, but I

1521
01:19:54,520 --> 01:19:56,160
Speaker 2: can't really start for a month. He said, that's not

1522
01:19:56,200 --> 01:19:57,840
Speaker 2: going to work. We need you right away. We're hiring

1523
01:19:57,880 --> 01:20:00,600
Speaker 2: twenty people or something right away. I said, that's not

1524
01:20:00,640 --> 01:20:03,680
Speaker 2: going to work. I got a I'm thinking, okay, I

1525
01:20:03,680 --> 01:20:06,200
Speaker 2: got a job, and I'm thinking I'm going to go

1526
01:20:06,200 --> 01:20:08,360
Speaker 2: into some corporate life and while it may be fun,

1527
01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:10,960
Speaker 2: it's going to be nothing like what I left. So

1528
01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:13,519
Speaker 2: I want to take like another run on the Marrakesh Express.

1529
01:20:13,560 --> 01:20:16,160
Speaker 2: So I grabbed my then girlfriend and I told him

1530
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:18,840
Speaker 2: I couldn't start for a year. For a month, I

1531
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 2: had to do some things. He said, well, I can't

1532
01:20:21,320 --> 01:20:23,519
Speaker 2: wait a month. Look, if you want to take off

1533
01:20:23,520 --> 01:20:26,320
Speaker 2: a month, do it, but the job may not be

1534
01:20:26,360 --> 01:20:28,920
Speaker 2: here if you come back. But if that job's not here,

1535
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:32,560
Speaker 2: there'll probably be something else. So I split to Marrakesh

1536
01:20:32,600 --> 01:20:35,160
Speaker 2: with my girlfriend and we roamed around Morocco for a

1537
01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:37,799
Speaker 2: couple of weeks. And I came back and I remember

1538
01:20:37,840 --> 01:20:42,040
Speaker 2: I entered the building on I think it was no

1539
01:20:42,160 --> 01:20:44,200
Speaker 2: I went back. Yeah, I went back, and the job

1540
01:20:44,280 --> 01:20:46,160
Speaker 2: was available. It wasn't a job I wanted. They put

1541
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:49,560
Speaker 2: me in a room where they stored soda and was

1542
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:53,760
Speaker 2: It was Saint Patrick's Day in nineteen eighty, ten years

1543
01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:56,639
Speaker 2: to the day from when I went to the Fillmore

1544
01:20:56,920 --> 01:21:00,599
Speaker 2: West and saw the Jefferson airplane with the Joshua light show,

1545
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:04,080
Speaker 2: and I saw music videos being I mean I saw

1546
01:21:04,080 --> 01:21:07,400
Speaker 2: a video being made the old fashioned way by those dudes,

1547
01:21:07,439 --> 01:21:10,840
Speaker 2: and I saw the power of music being linked up

1548
01:21:10,840 --> 01:21:13,559
Speaker 2: with video some kind. But anyway, I started off, and

1549
01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:17,479
Speaker 2: then they had me doing sales for a while, and

1550
01:21:17,520 --> 01:21:20,360
Speaker 2: then they hired a Bob Pittman, who was he's twenty

1551
01:21:20,360 --> 01:21:22,479
Speaker 2: one years old or twenty two years old. He's running

1552
01:21:22,640 --> 01:21:25,080
Speaker 2: the biggest radio station in New York, having run the

1553
01:21:25,080 --> 01:21:28,800
Speaker 2: biggest one in Chicago. He's like this long haired, one

1554
01:21:28,840 --> 01:21:32,679
Speaker 2: eyed hippie dude who a sweet talker. He was working

1555
01:21:32,720 --> 01:21:35,280
Speaker 2: with don Imus, and they hired him to kind of

1556
01:21:35,320 --> 01:21:38,599
Speaker 2: be the point person to develop the concept of MTV

1557
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:41,559
Speaker 2: into a real channel, and he was looking to get six,

1558
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:44,800
Speaker 2: seven eight people to be on the first team. So

1559
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:46,880
Speaker 2: I went to see him saying, I'm your man, this

1560
01:21:46,920 --> 01:21:48,599
Speaker 2: is why i came to the company in the first place.

1561
01:21:48,680 --> 01:21:52,240
Speaker 2: I've seen music videos. I'm like nuts about this idea

1562
01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:54,120
Speaker 2: is the big best idea in the world. You got

1563
01:21:54,120 --> 01:21:57,200
Speaker 2: to hire me. I'll work my ass up for you. Meanwhile,

1564
01:21:57,240 --> 01:22:00,400
Speaker 2: I'm like six or seven years older than him. I'm

1565
01:22:00,439 --> 01:22:04,519
Speaker 2: like the only old guy. I'm like thirty three. So

1566
01:22:04,720 --> 01:22:08,960
Speaker 2: he starts the same thing. He says, well, were you

1567
01:22:09,040 --> 01:22:11,680
Speaker 2: smuggling hashi Ish because that was a big thing of

1568
01:22:11,720 --> 01:22:14,479
Speaker 2: the day. I go, not really, I wasn't really smuggling

1569
01:22:14,479 --> 01:22:17,040
Speaker 2: hash He says not really. He says that means you were.

1570
01:22:17,640 --> 01:22:19,760
Speaker 2: That means you were right. He kind of trapped me,

1571
01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:22,880
Speaker 2: so he says, you're hired. So he hired me to

1572
01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:24,680
Speaker 2: be the head of marketing. So it was me and

1573
01:22:24,800 --> 01:22:29,240
Speaker 2: John Sykes and Piskuy, Fred Cyber, Carolyn Bigger. There was

1574
01:22:29,240 --> 01:22:30,840
Speaker 2: a handful of us. They were all shoved us into

1575
01:22:30,920 --> 01:22:34,479
Speaker 2: the Sheridan Hotel, into these hotel rooms where you know,

1576
01:22:34,520 --> 01:22:37,120
Speaker 2: We're just it's like a like like the kind of

1577
01:22:37,120 --> 01:22:39,800
Speaker 2: startup you'd see in the internet. One hero, everyone's eating

1578
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:43,320
Speaker 2: pizza and you know, we had like eight people and

1579
01:22:43,400 --> 01:22:45,920
Speaker 2: four phones and they had call waiting and we had

1580
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:49,479
Speaker 2: no money, but we were we were Everyone was like

1581
01:22:49,479 --> 01:22:51,320
Speaker 2: a music fanatic. A lot of them came out of

1582
01:22:51,439 --> 01:22:56,639
Speaker 2: either radio or record companies, and you know, we all

1583
01:22:56,640 --> 01:22:59,000
Speaker 2: thought this was the greatest idea in the world. And

1584
01:22:59,320 --> 01:23:01,479
Speaker 2: the people were I was like the highest paid guy

1585
01:23:01,880 --> 01:23:04,240
Speaker 2: other by no sychs is making thirty grand a year

1586
01:23:04,800 --> 01:23:07,559
Speaker 2: and they would have worked for less money. It's funny, Bob,

1587
01:23:07,560 --> 01:23:10,000
Speaker 2: but you know, everyone talks about money, money, money these days.

1588
01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:13,200
Speaker 2: None of these people were really concerned with money. We

1589
01:23:13,240 --> 01:23:15,760
Speaker 2: were on a you know, on a crusade to do

1590
01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:18,120
Speaker 2: something that sounded really exciting and if it worked out,

1591
01:23:18,120 --> 01:23:20,120
Speaker 2: maybe we'd make some money. No one was imagining it

1592
01:23:20,120 --> 01:23:22,400
Speaker 2: would be a multi billion dollar business one day.

1593
01:23:23,040 --> 01:23:26,479
Speaker 1: Okay, just to go back. You had nothing to do

1594
01:23:26,800 --> 01:23:30,680
Speaker 1: during that month. You just wanted another month live in

1595
01:23:30,720 --> 01:23:32,480
Speaker 1: the hippie lifestyle.

1596
01:23:33,439 --> 01:23:35,599
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I know, I'm athetic.

1597
01:23:35,840 --> 01:23:38,240
Speaker 1: Well wouldn't you normally say I can't believe I got

1598
01:23:38,240 --> 01:23:40,680
Speaker 1: this job? I mean, what was for you it.

1599
01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:43,080
Speaker 2: Turned out to be. It was a blessing in disguise

1600
01:23:43,160 --> 01:23:45,479
Speaker 2: because I when I came in, I'm now a level lower.

1601
01:23:46,200 --> 01:23:49,960
Speaker 2: So the frontline guys who were higher than me, they

1602
01:23:50,000 --> 01:23:52,920
Speaker 2: all ultimately got fired because they were out in front

1603
01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:55,559
Speaker 2: and they're making threshold mistakes in a new business, and

1604
01:23:55,640 --> 01:23:58,000
Speaker 2: you know, sooner or later, he's gone. He's gone, he's gone,

1605
01:23:58,280 --> 01:24:00,680
Speaker 2: and I'm down just below the swing of the and

1606
01:24:00,720 --> 01:24:03,320
Speaker 2: I'm seeing what's going on. I've seen, I'm learning stuff,

1607
01:24:03,360 --> 01:24:05,840
Speaker 2: and you know, I realized I'm learning from their mistakes,

1608
01:24:06,200 --> 01:24:08,960
Speaker 2: and I get elevated back to where I would have been,

1609
01:24:09,280 --> 01:24:11,720
Speaker 2: and then I ultimately go up to MTV. So if

1610
01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:14,000
Speaker 2: I had stayed and taken that higher job, maybe I

1611
01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:15,640
Speaker 2: would have made some dumb mistakes and they would have

1612
01:24:15,680 --> 01:24:18,639
Speaker 2: dusted me as well. So it all worked out. There's

1613
01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:21,240
Speaker 2: that improvised life thing, you know, you take a chance

1614
01:24:21,280 --> 01:24:23,600
Speaker 2: and you never know. But I followed my heart. I

1615
01:24:23,640 --> 01:24:26,439
Speaker 2: wanted to I wanted to go back to Morocco. That's

1616
01:24:26,439 --> 01:24:28,840
Speaker 2: where my you know, I was. It was like my

1617
01:24:28,920 --> 01:24:31,280
Speaker 2: old It's like going back to your old lover, you know,

1618
01:24:31,400 --> 01:24:34,240
Speaker 2: I mean, it was still there, that that third world thing,

1619
01:24:34,280 --> 01:24:37,799
Speaker 2: and I wanted another. I wanted another run at it

1620
01:24:37,880 --> 01:24:38,640
Speaker 2: got the best of me.

1621
01:24:38,840 --> 01:24:40,920
Speaker 1: So what was Pittman's special sauce.

1622
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:46,160
Speaker 2: He was a great bullshitter. He was smart as a whip.

1623
01:24:47,040 --> 01:24:50,280
Speaker 2: He had the Southern drawl. You know. I think he

1624
01:24:50,360 --> 01:24:52,800
Speaker 2: was the son of a minister or something. He came

1625
01:24:52,800 --> 01:24:56,479
Speaker 2: from Mississippi, and he would impress the hell out of

1626
01:24:56,479 --> 01:24:58,920
Speaker 2: older people because here he is, this young guy. He's

1627
01:24:58,920 --> 01:25:01,479
Speaker 2: wearing a suit, he's got long hair, he's got one eye.

1628
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:04,479
Speaker 2: He's programmed all these big radio stations. He says, I

1629
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:06,799
Speaker 2: got my finger on the pulse of the youth culture,

1630
01:25:06,840 --> 01:25:09,920
Speaker 2: and they believe them. And he could talk like no

1631
01:25:09,960 --> 01:25:11,519
Speaker 2: one could talk. I caught him the other day. I

1632
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:14,240
Speaker 2: was I was going through Instagram reels or whatever the

1633
01:25:14,240 --> 01:25:16,160
Speaker 2: hell it is, and there's Bob Pittman. He's talking at

1634
01:25:16,160 --> 01:25:19,920
Speaker 2: some conference in San Francisco. The same you know, he could.

1635
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:23,599
Speaker 2: He was like remind me of Shane Smith, same fucking lineus.

1636
01:25:23,880 --> 01:25:26,720
Speaker 2: You know. He was just a smooth talking dude, much

1637
01:25:26,720 --> 01:25:29,719
Speaker 2: different than Shane. But he making making something bad sound

1638
01:25:29,760 --> 01:25:32,320
Speaker 2: really good and people are eating it up because it

1639
01:25:32,360 --> 01:25:35,599
Speaker 2: comes out and sounds right. And he was a good manager.

1640
01:25:36,120 --> 01:25:38,479
Speaker 2: He was a good manager and he was cheap. He

1641
01:25:38,479 --> 01:25:40,519
Speaker 2: wouldn't give us any money to do anything because there

1642
01:25:40,520 --> 01:25:42,720
Speaker 2: wasn't really a lot of money to give. And he

1643
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:44,920
Speaker 2: became a great friend of me, and he was my mentor.

1644
01:25:45,040 --> 01:25:48,080
Speaker 2: For God's sake. He's the young guy. I'm the old

1645
01:25:48,120 --> 01:25:51,000
Speaker 2: I'm the old man. And I never told anybody there

1646
01:25:51,120 --> 01:25:53,240
Speaker 2: like I had an MBA. That would be like, you know,

1647
01:25:53,360 --> 01:25:55,920
Speaker 2: like I had cancer or something, because all these people

1648
01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:58,960
Speaker 2: kind of come from the creative side pretty much. I

1649
01:25:59,680 --> 01:26:02,320
Speaker 2: was just like some dude from Afghanistan who was a

1650
01:26:02,760 --> 01:26:03,920
Speaker 2: rug smuggler.

1651
01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:14,200
Speaker 1: So why exactly did Pittman leave?

1652
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:17,640
Speaker 2: Well, the bloom was off the roads, he thought, and

1653
01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:20,960
Speaker 2: others thought. We had a great run, and we went.

1654
01:26:21,000 --> 01:26:26,000
Speaker 2: When our revenue got to like seventy million dollars, Viacom

1655
01:26:28,640 --> 01:26:31,600
Speaker 2: Steve Warner Ames was having problems. There was the Atari

1656
01:26:31,640 --> 01:26:33,200
Speaker 2: thing if you can remember that right, you know.

1657
01:26:33,120 --> 01:26:34,799
Speaker 1: They were losing the crashed.

1658
01:26:35,280 --> 01:26:37,240
Speaker 2: We got to sell some stuff. We got to sell

1659
01:26:37,280 --> 01:26:38,920
Speaker 2: like some of these joint ventures. We got to get

1660
01:26:38,920 --> 01:26:40,200
Speaker 2: out of this. We got to raise some money. So

1661
01:26:40,240 --> 01:26:42,720
Speaker 2: we were put on the block and there was a

1662
01:26:42,720 --> 01:26:46,560
Speaker 2: company called via Com then that had just bought showtime.

1663
01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:48,960
Speaker 2: And then we went to Forestmen Little, that Bob new

1664
01:26:49,000 --> 01:26:51,760
Speaker 2: Teddy Forceman. There was a big lbo operation that was

1665
01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:54,639
Speaker 2: a big thing in the sixties or seventies or eighties

1666
01:26:54,640 --> 01:26:57,519
Speaker 2: if you remember. It leveraged buyouts. So we worked out

1667
01:26:57,520 --> 01:26:59,639
Speaker 2: a thing where we could buy the employees could buy

1668
01:26:59,680 --> 01:27:02,960
Speaker 2: the copy in conjunction with money from Forestman Little, and

1669
01:27:03,000 --> 01:27:05,439
Speaker 2: we put a bit on the table and then we

1670
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:07,160
Speaker 2: were going to get it. We were going to be

1671
01:27:07,160 --> 01:27:11,160
Speaker 2: independent and free. And then Teddy forst. Then Steve Ross

1672
01:27:11,160 --> 01:27:16,400
Speaker 2: got on some helicopter he flew to East Hampton and

1673
01:27:16,439 --> 01:27:18,080
Speaker 2: when he got off he decided he was in sell

1674
01:27:18,160 --> 01:27:20,320
Speaker 2: to the other guy. So like an extra fifty million dollars.

1675
01:27:20,320 --> 01:27:22,640
Speaker 2: So we were a shit out of luck. And the

1676
01:27:22,680 --> 01:27:25,000
Speaker 2: new guys who came in weren't all that pleasant. They

1677
01:27:25,000 --> 01:27:28,600
Speaker 2: were like proper business people. And Bob, I think, felt deflated.

1678
01:27:28,760 --> 01:27:30,840
Speaker 2: You know, I'm out of here. The blooms off the rose,

1679
01:27:30,880 --> 01:27:34,519
Speaker 2: the party's over, so he les Garland Sykes. A lot

1680
01:27:34,520 --> 01:27:37,880
Speaker 2: of people left, and I'm thinking, where the hell they going? Man,

1681
01:27:37,920 --> 01:27:40,439
Speaker 2: this is still the greatest idea around. What else are

1682
01:27:40,479 --> 01:27:42,080
Speaker 2: you going to find us better than this? They went

1683
01:27:42,120 --> 01:27:45,920
Speaker 2: off to work at CIA or some promotion thing and

1684
01:27:46,240 --> 01:27:49,280
Speaker 2: I think Bob was running Morton Downey Show, some kind

1685
01:27:49,320 --> 01:27:52,000
Speaker 2: of stuff like that. He had a deal with MCA.

1686
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:55,360
Speaker 2: Everybody was everyone was desired by Hollywood people because they thought,

1687
01:27:55,360 --> 01:27:58,200
Speaker 2: for some reason, the MTV executives had some kind of

1688
01:27:58,200 --> 01:28:00,880
Speaker 2: special sauce. So I stayed where I was and Bob

1689
01:28:00,960 --> 01:28:04,800
Speaker 2: made me president on the way out. So now I'm in.

1690
01:28:05,160 --> 01:28:06,840
Speaker 2: Now I'm on top of the pile. And I had

1691
01:28:06,840 --> 01:28:11,839
Speaker 2: to reconstitute everybody. And we were not impressed with the

1692
01:28:11,840 --> 01:28:14,680
Speaker 2: new people, the new people who took us over, and

1693
01:28:14,800 --> 01:28:18,080
Speaker 2: they came in to tell us, uh, you know what

1694
01:28:18,200 --> 01:28:20,280
Speaker 2: was what. I had a management retreat going on in

1695
01:28:20,360 --> 01:28:23,439
Speaker 2: Montalk at this place called Gurney's, and they came out

1696
01:28:23,439 --> 01:28:27,679
Speaker 2: with a helicopter. Now, the only silver lining of this deal,

1697
01:28:27,760 --> 01:28:31,000
Speaker 2: these guys getting a deal, was that the paltry amount

1698
01:28:31,040 --> 01:28:33,880
Speaker 2: of stock options that were distributed would vest and be

1699
01:28:33,960 --> 01:28:36,519
Speaker 2: paid out if someone bought the company. So we were

1700
01:28:36,560 --> 01:28:38,360
Speaker 2: looking around, you know, we had like ten thousands. You know,

1701
01:28:38,439 --> 01:28:40,000
Speaker 2: you're not going to make, you know, make forty fifty

1702
01:28:40,040 --> 01:28:42,160
Speaker 2: thousand dollars, but that was a lot of money to us.

1703
01:28:42,520 --> 01:28:44,320
Speaker 2: So they came in to talk to us. They set

1704
01:28:44,400 --> 01:28:47,320
Speaker 2: up a little microphone in the ballroom and they start

1705
01:28:47,360 --> 01:28:50,880
Speaker 2: off saying, well, we've talked to lawyers and we don't

1706
01:28:50,920 --> 01:28:52,760
Speaker 2: think we have to pay out your stock options. This

1707
01:28:52,880 --> 01:28:55,880
Speaker 2: is like the opener, you know. It was nothing like hey,

1708
01:28:55,920 --> 01:28:58,000
Speaker 2: you guys have done a great job, we see a

1709
01:28:58,040 --> 01:29:00,720
Speaker 2: great future ahead. We can't wait to work with you. No,

1710
01:29:00,880 --> 01:29:03,040
Speaker 2: and like fuck you. And then they you know, they

1711
01:29:03,080 --> 01:29:05,880
Speaker 2: talked a little bit about other stuff, and they left

1712
01:29:05,880 --> 01:29:10,040
Speaker 2: in their helicopters, and then we proceeded to trash the barroom,

1713
01:29:10,080 --> 01:29:13,560
Speaker 2: tip over fish tanks, tip over palm trees, bus glasses.

1714
01:29:13,600 --> 01:29:16,799
Speaker 2: It was like a gang of like like led Zeppelin.

1715
01:29:16,840 --> 01:29:20,840
Speaker 2: It infected us and anyway, then some of the Redstone

1716
01:29:20,880 --> 01:29:26,639
Speaker 2: took over the company and and displaced those guys, and

1717
01:29:26,880 --> 01:29:29,120
Speaker 2: I was off to work with him. He hired a

1718
01:29:29,120 --> 01:29:29,639
Speaker 2: guy named.

1719
01:29:29,479 --> 01:29:33,160
Speaker 1: Okay, wait before before you go there, Bob makes you president.

1720
01:29:34,120 --> 01:29:36,519
Speaker 1: Were you an impostor learning on the gig or did

1721
01:29:36,560 --> 01:29:37,360
Speaker 1: you know how to do it?

1722
01:29:38,040 --> 01:29:40,880
Speaker 2: Oh? I was an impostor. I mean I had been around.

1723
01:29:40,920 --> 01:29:42,680
Speaker 2: I think even it was still a small company, I

1724
01:29:42,680 --> 01:29:44,720
Speaker 2: could do it. But then the new guy said, hey,

1725
01:29:44,760 --> 01:29:46,599
Speaker 2: you're not a good enough president. We're going to give

1726
01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:49,360
Speaker 2: you a co president. Because I don't think that, you know,

1727
01:29:49,439 --> 01:29:52,639
Speaker 2: advertisers are going to like trust you, or you didn't

1728
01:29:52,680 --> 01:29:54,760
Speaker 2: have the credibility to deal with advertisers. You were not

1729
01:29:54,880 --> 01:29:57,040
Speaker 2: that school in that part of the business. So now

1730
01:29:57,120 --> 01:30:00,240
Speaker 2: I have a co president and you know, this is

1731
01:30:00,680 --> 01:30:02,400
Speaker 2: the guy I got along with him. Okay, but it

1732
01:30:02,439 --> 01:30:05,120
Speaker 2: was a bit deflating. But meanwhile I was learning the

1733
01:30:05,160 --> 01:30:09,759
Speaker 2: ropes on my half of the business. And then Sunder

1734
01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:13,080
Speaker 2: came along. He took it over in a big takeout battle, big, big,

1735
01:30:14,360 --> 01:30:18,519
Speaker 2: big battle. It was, you know, well chronicled on Wall Street.

1736
01:30:18,960 --> 01:30:22,280
Speaker 2: And he hired Frank Biondi, this great guy, who immediately

1737
01:30:22,320 --> 01:30:25,240
Speaker 2: made me the CEO and had me fire the other guy,

1738
01:30:25,840 --> 01:30:28,599
Speaker 2: which I did, and then I was off with those

1739
01:30:28,640 --> 01:30:31,000
Speaker 2: guys for you know, I was the CEO of MTV

1740
01:30:31,080 --> 01:30:34,360
Speaker 2: Networks for seventeen years, and you know, we blew it

1741
01:30:34,439 --> 01:30:37,600
Speaker 2: up into a multi billion dollar business. It was fantastic

1742
01:30:37,680 --> 01:30:40,519
Speaker 2: because it wasn't like I was doing the same boring thing.

1743
01:30:41,080 --> 01:30:43,759
Speaker 2: Things would come along and we'd be a whole different,

1744
01:30:43,800 --> 01:30:46,559
Speaker 2: new kind of company. We started going international. We started

1745
01:30:46,680 --> 01:30:50,759
Speaker 2: nick Toons Animation, finding these weird like animators and setting

1746
01:30:50,800 --> 01:30:52,559
Speaker 2: them up to do business and set up a little

1747
01:30:52,600 --> 01:30:56,799
Speaker 2: animation studio. Going international was a big We launched other networks,

1748
01:30:56,840 --> 01:31:00,400
Speaker 2: Comedy Central among them, so it was always new, it

1749
01:31:00,439 --> 01:31:03,800
Speaker 2: was always interesting, and I viewed my job as my

1750
01:31:04,000 --> 01:31:09,880
Speaker 2: job was to keep the entity, this creative nucleus protected

1751
01:31:10,360 --> 01:31:14,480
Speaker 2: because I had this management team that was amazingly talented,

1752
01:31:14,520 --> 01:31:16,720
Speaker 2: and we were just filled with people who didn't want

1753
01:31:16,760 --> 01:31:19,200
Speaker 2: to work in normal companies. We had the worst dress

1754
01:31:19,240 --> 01:31:24,800
Speaker 2: group of people in any Manhattan office building. And my

1755
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:27,920
Speaker 2: job was basically to try and keep this as a

1756
01:31:27,960 --> 01:31:31,120
Speaker 2: creative first company and to develop a culture there that

1757
01:31:31,160 --> 01:31:34,240
Speaker 2: would be seen as a competitive advantage by others. And

1758
01:31:34,320 --> 01:31:38,000
Speaker 2: I made the heads of our networks creative people, not

1759
01:31:38,200 --> 01:31:40,640
Speaker 2: business people, which would have been the normal process in

1760
01:31:40,680 --> 01:31:43,519
Speaker 2: the business world. We gave up half our key jobs

1761
01:31:43,560 --> 01:31:46,559
Speaker 2: to women, but we had like Judy McGrath and John

1762
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:51,680
Speaker 2: Sykes and Jerry Laiborne and Herb Scannal and others, you know.

1763
01:31:51,760 --> 01:31:54,439
Speaker 2: So I thought that if you had a creative person

1764
01:31:54,520 --> 01:31:57,360
Speaker 2: running a network, the people who worked there would see

1765
01:31:57,400 --> 01:32:00,479
Speaker 2: that we're a creative company at heart and create activity

1766
01:32:00,479 --> 01:32:03,760
Speaker 2: and taking risks is our key aptitude. And everyone was

1767
01:32:03,800 --> 01:32:06,280
Speaker 2: always encouraged to try and push the envelope, do stuff

1768
01:32:06,280 --> 01:32:07,600
Speaker 2: we didn't have a lot of money, so they had to

1769
01:32:07,640 --> 01:32:09,680
Speaker 2: kind of do it in an innovative way, and for

1770
01:32:09,720 --> 01:32:12,320
Speaker 2: a long time it worked. We cranked out, you know,

1771
01:32:12,840 --> 01:32:17,920
Speaker 2: we grew for seventeen years, four quarters each year. Every

1772
01:32:18,160 --> 01:32:20,680
Speaker 2: quarter we were up double digits on the top and

1773
01:32:20,720 --> 01:32:23,800
Speaker 2: bottom line. So it really went from seventy million dollars

1774
01:32:23,800 --> 01:32:28,320
Speaker 2: a year to a few billion dollars a year in revenue.

1775
01:32:28,479 --> 01:32:31,000
Speaker 2: And when really kicked in was Nickelodeon and when we

1776
01:32:31,040 --> 01:32:34,559
Speaker 2: made the move to invent our own cartoons, basically create

1777
01:32:34,560 --> 01:32:37,760
Speaker 2: our own cartoon characters rather than licensed looney tunes and

1778
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:40,719
Speaker 2: stuff like that. And then we can had consumer products.

1779
01:32:40,880 --> 01:32:44,479
Speaker 2: And then Sumnder bought Paramount, so we were able to

1780
01:32:44,520 --> 01:32:48,160
Speaker 2: make movies and so again we're reincarnated into a whole

1781
01:32:48,160 --> 01:32:49,960
Speaker 2: other kind of business. So you learn a bit about

1782
01:32:49,960 --> 01:32:54,800
Speaker 2: the movie business. It was. It was a great ride.

1783
01:32:55,200 --> 01:32:57,120
Speaker 1: Just got to go back to the party out in

1784
01:32:57,200 --> 01:33:01,519
Speaker 1: mod talk. You're in charge and they're trashing the place.

1785
01:33:02,320 --> 01:33:04,680
Speaker 2: Well, I was second in charge. Pittman was still there.

1786
01:33:04,760 --> 01:33:07,080
Speaker 2: This was his swan soa and he actually started it.

1787
01:33:07,800 --> 01:33:10,520
Speaker 2: He started throwing the glass. He started throwing the glasses,

1788
01:33:10,840 --> 01:33:13,320
Speaker 2: and then everybody said, well, hey man, he's throwing the glasses.

1789
01:33:13,360 --> 01:33:15,759
Speaker 2: Let's throw the glasses. Then let's they had these palm

1790
01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:18,120
Speaker 2: trees like in these pots and they're being thrown over

1791
01:33:18,240 --> 01:33:22,040
Speaker 2: and fish tank and really, I mean it was quite

1792
01:33:22,040 --> 01:33:24,479
Speaker 2: a scene to see. But everyone was so pissed, like

1793
01:33:24,520 --> 01:33:27,320
Speaker 2: we had this little wonderland, we had a plan to

1794
01:33:27,320 --> 01:33:29,240
Speaker 2: be out on our own, and now it's not just

1795
01:33:29,400 --> 01:33:32,840
Speaker 2: not happening, but it seems like the new guys are like,

1796
01:33:33,160 --> 01:33:35,360
Speaker 2: you know, not exactly our kind of people.

1797
01:33:36,960 --> 01:33:43,439
Speaker 1: Okay, so tell me about Sumner. Was Sunder just a

1798
01:33:43,560 --> 01:33:47,880
Speaker 1: bull who took chances? Was he a brilliant businessman who

1799
01:33:47,880 --> 01:33:50,720
Speaker 1: built this empire? Who was Sumner Redstone?

1800
01:33:53,360 --> 01:33:57,360
Speaker 2: That's a good question. He was a complicated man. He

1801
01:33:57,400 --> 01:34:01,479
Speaker 2: inherited a driving theater business from his father and then

1802
01:34:01,680 --> 01:34:03,599
Speaker 2: built it up. He was really the kind of guy

1803
01:34:03,600 --> 01:34:06,760
Speaker 2: who started building the multiplexus. This is, you know, at

1804
01:34:06,800 --> 01:34:10,680
Speaker 2: the time when theater business was quite big, and he

1805
01:34:10,760 --> 01:34:13,559
Speaker 2: had dreams at sixty five or so, which was older

1806
01:34:13,560 --> 01:34:16,479
Speaker 2: in those days than it is nowadays, to build an internet,

1807
01:34:16,520 --> 01:34:19,320
Speaker 2: you know, to build a real company, big company. So

1808
01:34:19,760 --> 01:34:23,880
Speaker 2: he started taking pieces of eye. He used to. He

1809
01:34:23,920 --> 01:34:27,080
Speaker 2: built his fortune when he was an exhibitor by going

1810
01:34:27,120 --> 01:34:29,360
Speaker 2: to movie screenings, you know. So he'd like see a

1811
01:34:29,360 --> 01:34:34,040
Speaker 2: screening of Star Wars and he said, it's a good movie.

1812
01:34:34,040 --> 01:34:35,840
Speaker 2: So he called his broker and buy a lot of

1813
01:34:36,080 --> 01:34:40,120
Speaker 2: stock in Fox. And you know, I mean, he'd buy

1814
01:34:40,160 --> 01:34:41,760
Speaker 2: a lot of stock at a time and he would

1815
01:34:41,800 --> 01:34:44,960
Speaker 2: be he was able to parlor himself into being a millionaire.

1816
01:34:45,160 --> 01:34:48,120
Speaker 2: It wasn't like he had inside information, but he had

1817
01:34:48,160 --> 01:34:50,960
Speaker 2: sort of inside vibes as to what was happening, and

1818
01:34:51,000 --> 01:34:53,840
Speaker 2: he placed big bets in the stock market and made

1819
01:34:53,920 --> 01:34:56,280
Speaker 2: himself rich. And then he decided he wanted to build

1820
01:34:56,320 --> 01:35:00,120
Speaker 2: a he wanted to become a mogul and start, and

1821
01:35:00,120 --> 01:35:03,400
Speaker 2: he started with Us, and then he just kept doing

1822
01:35:03,439 --> 01:35:05,200
Speaker 2: more deals. I mean, as soon as he got us

1823
01:35:05,280 --> 01:35:09,640
Speaker 2: under control, that was taken over Paramount and then and

1824
01:35:09,720 --> 01:35:12,120
Speaker 2: each time with another heaping of debt and then taken

1825
01:35:12,160 --> 01:35:14,400
Speaker 2: over Paramount. Well, now I'm going to take over CBS.

1826
01:35:14,400 --> 01:35:17,840
Speaker 2: So he m l Karmezan work out a deal. So

1827
01:35:17,920 --> 01:35:20,280
Speaker 2: now it's CBS is in there, and they bring along

1828
01:35:20,320 --> 01:35:22,479
Speaker 2: some other you know, they had Simon and Schuster and

1829
01:35:23,280 --> 01:35:26,280
Speaker 2: you know, other businesses, and you know, then it was

1830
01:35:26,280 --> 01:35:28,559
Speaker 2: always a mess to try and integrate all of this.

1831
01:35:30,040 --> 01:35:33,000
Speaker 1: And all away.

1832
01:35:33,160 --> 01:35:35,880
Speaker 2: I mean, he was a litigious guy. He was a

1833
01:35:35,960 --> 01:35:41,040
Speaker 2: lawyer by training, and he was always had always had

1834
01:35:41,080 --> 01:35:44,480
Speaker 2: his ears up for anyone he thought might be unfairly

1835
01:35:44,560 --> 01:35:47,880
Speaker 2: treating us. Like. He was an anti trust lawyer. So

1836
01:35:47,920 --> 01:35:51,160
Speaker 2: he always thought like John Malone and TCI, they were

1837
01:35:51,160 --> 01:35:53,519
Speaker 2: the big, the big bohemoths of the day, and like

1838
01:35:53,960 --> 01:35:56,960
Speaker 2: normally you couldn't get distribution for your network unless you're

1839
01:35:56,960 --> 01:36:00,840
Speaker 2: willing to give, like Bob Johnson to give or discover give, give,

1840
01:36:01,120 --> 01:36:03,040
Speaker 2: give him. It's sort of like what Trump's doing. Now,

1841
01:36:03,080 --> 01:36:06,040
Speaker 2: give him a piece of the business and you get distribution.

1842
01:36:06,720 --> 01:36:09,120
Speaker 2: He never wanted to play that game, so he would sue,

1843
01:36:10,360 --> 01:36:13,519
Speaker 2: you know, he sued, Uh, he sued John Malone, He

1844
01:36:13,600 --> 01:36:17,439
Speaker 2: sewed TCI against my wishes. He made lawsuits like a

1845
01:36:17,479 --> 01:36:20,400
Speaker 2: profit center. He brought in Philippe Dumont, which is a

1846
01:36:20,479 --> 01:36:23,280
Speaker 2: state lawyer, to kind of aid in a bet the

1847
01:36:23,680 --> 01:36:28,080
Speaker 2: legal you know, our legal stance. So he was successful

1848
01:36:28,080 --> 01:36:30,840
Speaker 2: at doing. He didn't care. He to suit people and win.

1849
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:32,720
Speaker 2: I mean, he was happy to be the thurd on

1850
01:36:32,800 --> 01:36:36,760
Speaker 2: the on the cable golf course. Club didn't bother him

1851
01:36:36,760 --> 01:36:39,479
Speaker 2: at all. So he was bold and brave and made

1852
01:36:39,520 --> 01:36:46,200
Speaker 2: big moves and he was brilliant, but he he kind

1853
01:36:46,200 --> 01:36:51,560
Speaker 2: of desired the limelight. So like Frank Biondi, who was

1854
01:36:51,600 --> 01:36:55,240
Speaker 2: a very very able manager who I loved. The guy

1855
01:36:55,360 --> 01:36:58,360
Speaker 2: was great. He he understood what we had at MTV

1856
01:36:58,439 --> 01:37:00,320
Speaker 2: Networks and he ran it with a really light touch.

1857
01:37:00,320 --> 01:37:04,080
Speaker 2: He understood that we were not a traditional, you know division,

1858
01:37:04,200 --> 01:37:06,360
Speaker 2: and we were allowed at certain kind of freedoms and

1859
01:37:06,400 --> 01:37:08,800
Speaker 2: they didn't really interferce so long as we delivered them mode.

1860
01:37:08,840 --> 01:37:11,960
Speaker 2: But when Frank started getting like nice articles in the

1861
01:37:12,040 --> 01:37:14,000
Speaker 2: New Yorker or whatever, you know, he was soon gone.

1862
01:37:14,000 --> 01:37:17,240
Speaker 2: One day he was gone. And then with Mel, it

1863
01:37:17,360 --> 01:37:19,559
Speaker 2: was the same thing. Mel was another really able guy.

1864
01:37:19,600 --> 01:37:21,840
Speaker 2: Mel Karminson was a legend in the music business, in

1865
01:37:21,920 --> 01:37:24,880
Speaker 2: the radio business. You know, he created Infinity Radio, sold

1866
01:37:24,920 --> 01:37:27,360
Speaker 2: at the CBS, somehow worked out to be on the

1867
01:37:27,400 --> 01:37:30,479
Speaker 2: top of CBS. You know, he kind of like worked

1868
01:37:30,520 --> 01:37:33,400
Speaker 2: his way up and then he took us over and

1869
01:37:33,439 --> 01:37:37,719
Speaker 2: he became my new boss. And again, you know, he

1870
01:37:37,720 --> 01:37:39,920
Speaker 2: he kind of left us alone as so long as

1871
01:37:39,920 --> 01:37:42,400
Speaker 2: we met our financial targets. I like Meil very much.

1872
01:37:43,080 --> 01:37:45,320
Speaker 2: He was a real character. But again he was getting

1873
01:37:45,320 --> 01:37:47,800
Speaker 2: credit for making move. You know, he was getting credit

1874
01:37:47,800 --> 01:37:49,679
Speaker 2: for making a lot of smart moves that he made,

1875
01:37:50,280 --> 01:37:53,719
Speaker 2: but Sumner didn't, you know, he was sort of stealing

1876
01:37:53,800 --> 01:37:57,519
Speaker 2: the limelight. I think that Sumner desired and Sumner at

1877
01:37:57,560 --> 01:37:59,639
Speaker 2: the end of the day, while he started really modestly

1878
01:37:59,680 --> 01:38:02,360
Speaker 2: when we started, he would sit back at staff meetings,

1879
01:38:02,400 --> 01:38:04,840
Speaker 2: let frank he was kind of like he was kind

1880
01:38:04,880 --> 01:38:07,559
Speaker 2: of like learning the business, you know, at these meetings

1881
01:38:07,560 --> 01:38:09,599
Speaker 2: and seeing how things really work. And when he got

1882
01:38:09,680 --> 01:38:11,120
Speaker 2: to the point where we thought, Okay, now I know

1883
01:38:11,160 --> 01:38:13,479
Speaker 2: what I'm doing. You know, I'm going to run the

1884
01:38:13,520 --> 01:38:21,640
Speaker 2: whole baby, and you know, he was he didn't have

1885
01:38:21,680 --> 01:38:23,920
Speaker 2: a lot of friends. I would notice that anybody who

1886
01:38:24,000 --> 01:38:27,240
Speaker 2: got kind of close to him was gone. And I

1887
01:38:27,320 --> 01:38:30,320
Speaker 2: kind of kept my distance, and he was always happy

1888
01:38:30,360 --> 01:38:33,559
Speaker 2: to see me. And I tried to get him engaged

1889
01:38:33,560 --> 01:38:38,200
Speaker 2: in a lot of things, and he would support us,

1890
01:38:38,640 --> 01:38:40,320
Speaker 2: you know, he was a supportive guy. But in the

1891
01:38:40,400 --> 01:38:44,120
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, he was he got

1892
01:38:44,160 --> 01:38:48,479
Speaker 2: upset with me. I I I began, I didn't want

1893
01:38:48,479 --> 01:38:52,200
Speaker 2: to be the CEO. I mean I didn't, but he

1894
01:38:52,640 --> 01:38:55,479
Speaker 2: I remember clearly one day we we had had a

1895
01:38:55,560 --> 01:38:58,680
Speaker 2: joint venture with HBO to run Comedy Central. After we

1896
01:38:58,720 --> 01:39:01,600
Speaker 2: had these so called comedy wars, and we had a

1897
01:39:01,600 --> 01:39:03,519
Speaker 2: board meeting one day. I remember walking down Broadway as

1898
01:39:03,520 --> 01:39:05,160
Speaker 2: a spring day, the sun was out, and I'm with

1899
01:39:05,200 --> 01:39:07,519
Speaker 2: Jeff Buchus, who became a good friend. He was running

1900
01:39:07,640 --> 01:39:09,920
Speaker 2: HBO at the time. He said, you know, you and me,

1901
01:39:10,000 --> 01:39:12,679
Speaker 2: we got the best jobs in town. This is these

1902
01:39:12,760 --> 01:39:15,200
Speaker 2: jobs are fantastic. We get to do all these things

1903
01:39:15,280 --> 01:39:19,280
Speaker 2: we love. We work with interesting people, businesses are vibrant.

1904
01:39:19,880 --> 01:39:22,360
Speaker 2: He says. The only problem is one day they're going

1905
01:39:22,400 --> 01:39:24,040
Speaker 2: to ask us to run these things and we're going

1906
01:39:24,080 --> 01:39:27,639
Speaker 2: to be in a whole different ballgame. And he was right.

1907
01:39:27,720 --> 01:39:30,720
Speaker 2: He ended up running Time Waterer. I ended up running Viacom.

1908
01:39:30,800 --> 01:39:34,679
Speaker 2: But you know I took it over at a point

1909
01:39:34,680 --> 01:39:38,960
Speaker 2: in time when the digital companies were really beginning to

1910
01:39:38,960 --> 01:39:43,280
Speaker 2: make inroads into the legacy media companies, and you know,

1911
01:39:43,280 --> 01:39:45,960
Speaker 2: we had this sort of how do we change direction?

1912
01:39:46,200 --> 01:39:49,439
Speaker 2: And stock prices were stalled and you can only jack

1913
01:39:49,560 --> 01:39:52,120
Speaker 2: up your price, which someonder was obsessed with stock price,

1914
01:39:52,560 --> 01:39:56,599
Speaker 2: whereas Rupert Murdoch his nemesis, would fly around the world

1915
01:39:56,600 --> 01:40:03,960
Speaker 2: and know how well his operations ran. Uh, some are

1916
01:40:04,040 --> 01:40:06,120
Speaker 2: really looked at the stock price like that would like

1917
01:40:06,120 --> 01:40:10,760
Speaker 2: the dog, the tail wagging the dog. So I fell

1918
01:40:10,760 --> 01:40:15,760
Speaker 2: in a bit of disfavor and he fired me. And

1919
01:40:15,800 --> 01:40:18,280
Speaker 2: that was it?

1920
01:40:18,479 --> 01:40:21,200
Speaker 1: Was it really that? You know, the company was split

1921
01:40:21,280 --> 01:40:27,320
Speaker 1: into and less had good numbers. The division that you

1922
01:40:27,680 --> 01:40:31,040
Speaker 1: ran the report wasn't as good, even though we both

1923
01:40:31,160 --> 01:40:37,280
Speaker 1: know those are manipulated numbers. Was it inevitable or an

1924
01:40:37,320 --> 01:40:39,720
Speaker 1: irrelevant of whether you wanted to keep the job? If

1925
01:40:39,760 --> 01:40:42,240
Speaker 1: you could repeat it, would you play it any differently?

1926
01:40:44,640 --> 01:40:47,639
Speaker 2: Now? I thought we were making the right moves. I mean,

1927
01:40:47,680 --> 01:40:50,559
Speaker 2: we had been thwarted into the real challenge for us,

1928
01:40:50,560 --> 01:40:52,400
Speaker 2: for all these kind of media companies is how do

1929
01:40:52,439 --> 01:40:55,880
Speaker 2: we how do we face the digital invasion that was

1930
01:40:55,880 --> 01:40:59,000
Speaker 2: coming our way? You know, increasingly we were being decimated

1931
01:40:59,000 --> 01:41:02,560
Speaker 2: by the yeah Who's and the Googles and the Facebook,

1932
01:41:02,600 --> 01:41:05,360
Speaker 2: well not so much Facebook, so I mean that was

1933
01:41:05,400 --> 01:41:06,360
Speaker 2: nothing at the time.

1934
01:41:07,040 --> 01:41:07,679
Speaker 1: How do we.

1935
01:41:07,560 --> 01:41:09,760
Speaker 2: Reinvent ourselves for the digital era? How do we make

1936
01:41:09,800 --> 01:41:12,120
Speaker 2: this transition? Because we all, we weren't stupid, we saw

1937
01:41:12,120 --> 01:41:14,559
Speaker 2: what was coming. We were coming to this on demand

1938
01:41:14,680 --> 01:41:17,479
Speaker 2: streaming sort of model and these it was going to

1939
01:41:17,479 --> 01:41:23,680
Speaker 2: be a more open world. And one of the we

1940
01:41:23,760 --> 01:41:27,599
Speaker 2: tried to buy. We bought some small websites. We hired

1941
01:41:27,600 --> 01:41:29,760
Speaker 2: a digital department trying to find our way around, but

1942
01:41:29,760 --> 01:41:31,920
Speaker 2: then decided, you know, we need to really acquire something.

1943
01:41:31,960 --> 01:41:35,720
Speaker 2: We're not going to really get there by any kind

1944
01:41:35,760 --> 01:41:37,680
Speaker 2: of organic thing, which is what we were used to.

1945
01:41:37,720 --> 01:41:40,120
Speaker 2: We weren't used to buying companies and integrating them. We

1946
01:41:40,160 --> 01:41:44,840
Speaker 2: did everything ourselves. We grew organically. But we started off.

1947
01:41:44,880 --> 01:41:48,120
Speaker 2: We had a meeting with Mark Zuckerberg at Facebook when

1948
01:41:48,120 --> 01:41:50,720
Speaker 2: they were doing like nine million dollars a year in revenue.

1949
01:41:50,800 --> 01:41:53,360
Speaker 2: He was like twenty years old, and we made an

1950
01:41:53,400 --> 01:41:56,599
Speaker 2: offer to buy it, and he turned it down. And

1951
01:41:56,640 --> 01:42:01,679
Speaker 2: then we looked at YouTube, which launched in two thousand

1952
01:42:01,720 --> 01:42:08,599
Speaker 2: and five, and that was you know, we saw that

1953
01:42:08,640 --> 01:42:14,280
Speaker 2: these these digital networks were like this major paradigm shift.

1954
01:42:14,320 --> 01:42:16,640
Speaker 2: This was a whole new thing. This is going to

1955
01:42:16,640 --> 01:42:20,800
Speaker 2: become like this was going to really really decimate us

1956
01:42:20,800 --> 01:42:24,040
Speaker 2: because no longer were you going to be a gatekeeper

1957
01:42:24,560 --> 01:42:28,360
Speaker 2: on YouTube. Anybody could upload video, share it, comment on it,

1958
01:42:28,439 --> 01:42:31,320
Speaker 2: this or that they could be peer to peer and

1959
01:42:31,640 --> 01:42:33,760
Speaker 2: this is sort of going to unfold and evolve to

1960
01:42:33,800 --> 01:42:38,080
Speaker 2: be the future. And sure enough we were the short

1961
01:42:38,120 --> 01:42:42,519
Speaker 2: form Kings and along comes YouTube and we looked at YouTube,

1962
01:42:43,600 --> 01:42:46,400
Speaker 2: and it was fascinating to see what they were doing.

1963
01:42:46,400 --> 01:42:49,599
Speaker 2: But they were doing things that the traditional media people

1964
01:42:49,600 --> 01:42:53,759
Speaker 2: thought were illegal. You know, they were taking copyrighted material

1965
01:42:53,800 --> 01:42:57,680
Speaker 2: and uploading it for free. And while some companies like

1966
01:42:57,960 --> 01:43:00,839
Speaker 2: you know, SNL would use they would put up Lazy Sunday.

1967
01:43:00,880 --> 01:43:02,960
Speaker 2: That was an early thing that sort of went viral.

1968
01:43:04,720 --> 01:43:07,640
Speaker 2: It was viewed as a content infringement machine by the

1969
01:43:07,760 --> 01:43:10,799
Speaker 2: Viacom board. You know, if we buy it, hat, everybody's

1970
01:43:10,840 --> 01:43:13,479
Speaker 2: gonna sue us because they can't sue YouTube now because

1971
01:43:13,479 --> 01:43:15,639
Speaker 2: they don't have any money. They're not gonna Maybe they're

1972
01:43:15,680 --> 01:43:18,360
Speaker 2: going to get sued. But you know, this can't happen.

1973
01:43:18,400 --> 01:43:20,760
Speaker 2: This is not right. This is these digital guys are

1974
01:43:20,800 --> 01:43:23,120
Speaker 2: just taking away everything for free. We're seeing the same

1975
01:43:23,240 --> 01:43:26,479
Speaker 2: argument now with AI Bob. You know, it's the same thing.

1976
01:43:27,120 --> 01:43:29,880
Speaker 2: They can't do it. The laws will never stand for it.

1977
01:43:30,680 --> 01:43:34,599
Speaker 2: So what we had there, because I look now at

1978
01:43:34,640 --> 01:43:37,439
Speaker 2: you know, were we too have been able to buy

1979
01:43:37,479 --> 01:43:41,960
Speaker 2: YouTube Buyacom, would look a lot different today. But there

1980
01:43:42,000 --> 01:43:44,639
Speaker 2: was a couple of things preventing that from happening. Besides

1981
01:43:44,680 --> 01:43:48,040
Speaker 2: the disposition of the board, which you could say was

1982
01:43:48,240 --> 01:43:50,479
Speaker 2: you know, maybe it's going to work out the kind

1983
01:43:50,479 --> 01:43:53,880
Speaker 2: of why you could afford to buy it. You would

1984
01:43:53,880 --> 01:43:56,559
Speaker 2: have to show Wall Street sort of immediate results that

1985
01:43:56,600 --> 01:43:58,960
Speaker 2: it was going to show some profit, which wasn't going

1986
01:43:59,040 --> 01:44:01,920
Speaker 2: to happen, and you would have to fund the infrastructure

1987
01:44:01,960 --> 01:44:05,120
Speaker 2: that they've used to develop this amazing machine that we

1988
01:44:05,240 --> 01:44:07,840
Speaker 2: all see now and just you're in awe. It's worth

1989
01:44:07,880 --> 01:44:13,000
Speaker 2: almost six hundred billion dollars, So you know, in a

1990
01:44:13,040 --> 01:44:15,200
Speaker 2: wood of wood of would have should have there was

1991
01:44:15,240 --> 01:44:17,519
Speaker 2: a lot of wood. You could dream about it, but

1992
01:44:17,600 --> 01:44:20,320
Speaker 2: it was impossible. We couldn't own it and lose money

1993
01:44:20,360 --> 01:44:23,519
Speaker 2: for ten years like Google could. So and then I

1994
01:44:23,560 --> 01:44:26,360
Speaker 2: tried to buy We looked at MySpace, which was the

1995
01:44:26,400 --> 01:44:30,880
Speaker 2: pre eminent social network of the day, and we had

1996
01:44:30,920 --> 01:44:33,760
Speaker 2: conversations with them, and they had that was attracting a

1997
01:44:33,760 --> 01:44:36,400
Speaker 2: lot of independent bands, and they would get more traffic

1998
01:44:36,439 --> 01:44:39,960
Speaker 2: on their little you know, on their site for some

1999
01:44:40,040 --> 01:44:42,160
Speaker 2: of our shows, and we get for our own websites

2000
01:44:42,200 --> 01:44:46,960
Speaker 2: on the shows. So Rupert Murdoch came in and bought it,

2001
01:44:47,200 --> 01:44:48,960
Speaker 2: and that was a bad thing. I mean, it wasn't

2002
01:44:48,960 --> 01:44:52,280
Speaker 2: a bad thing because we hadn't really decided we wanted it,

2003
01:44:52,320 --> 01:44:54,719
Speaker 2: but for some there it was a bad thing because

2004
01:44:54,800 --> 01:45:00,800
Speaker 2: Rupert Murdoch bought it his uh, his chief rise, and

2005
01:45:00,880 --> 01:45:03,559
Speaker 2: Rupert started appearing on the covers of all these trade

2006
01:45:03,600 --> 01:45:07,360
Speaker 2: magazines as the digital genius, the new digital guy. And

2007
01:45:07,439 --> 01:45:11,160
Speaker 2: Sumner was like, you know, not that guy. And he

2008
01:45:11,280 --> 01:45:14,920
Speaker 2: thought I had blown that because I was when Rupert

2009
01:45:15,000 --> 01:45:17,160
Speaker 2: was buying it over a weekend with no due diligence.

2010
01:45:17,200 --> 01:45:19,040
Speaker 2: I was in Hawaii with my two kids and my

2011
01:45:19,120 --> 01:45:22,639
Speaker 2: wife for like a week vacation. And he told Charlie

2012
01:45:22,760 --> 01:45:26,960
Speaker 2: Rose after he fired me that. Charlie asked him directly,

2013
01:45:27,080 --> 01:45:30,639
Speaker 2: was yeah, was a YouTube factor? He goes, yeah, yeah,

2014
01:45:31,080 --> 01:45:34,519
Speaker 2: we lost. I hate to lose, Sir Rupert Murdoch. So

2015
01:45:34,680 --> 01:45:40,840
Speaker 2: that was one reason. And then you know, we missed

2016
01:45:40,880 --> 01:45:44,400
Speaker 2: numbers for a quarter, but then the second quarter, our

2017
01:45:44,560 --> 01:45:48,679
Speaker 2: second quarter numbers were fine. We were back on track.

2018
01:45:49,240 --> 01:45:51,879
Speaker 2: You know. We were also precluded from the most obvious

2019
01:45:51,920 --> 01:45:54,240
Speaker 2: thing for us to turn digital would have been to

2020
01:45:54,520 --> 01:45:57,960
Speaker 2: have taken our library of twenty thousand videos and gotten

2021
01:45:58,000 --> 01:46:03,200
Speaker 2: the video rights for them, just be one big Vivo.

2022
01:46:03,360 --> 01:46:05,600
Speaker 2: You know. We could have set up the architecture to

2023
01:46:05,640 --> 01:46:07,800
Speaker 2: do that and video on demand, and we could have

2024
01:46:07,800 --> 01:46:10,519
Speaker 2: figured out innovative ways to put it out and program it.

2025
01:46:10,600 --> 01:46:15,400
Speaker 2: But the record companies really put their foot down, the

2026
01:46:15,520 --> 01:46:18,960
Speaker 2: legal side of the record companies. They felt that MTV

2027
01:46:19,120 --> 01:46:23,320
Speaker 2: Networks had built a business on their backs. Nothing was

2028
01:46:23,360 --> 01:46:26,200
Speaker 2: ever said about the money we paid them or the

2029
01:46:26,240 --> 01:46:28,439
Speaker 2: fact that we made so many of their acts so popular,

2030
01:46:28,479 --> 01:46:31,360
Speaker 2: but they didn't want another MTV on the Internet, so

2031
01:46:31,520 --> 01:46:33,479
Speaker 2: it was impossible for us to get a hold of

2032
01:46:33,479 --> 01:46:36,560
Speaker 2: the key programming form that had, you know, driven a

2033
01:46:36,640 --> 01:46:40,240
Speaker 2: large part of our success on the Internet, which was

2034
01:46:40,280 --> 01:46:43,360
Speaker 2: a big frustration and a big roadblock. Not to say

2035
01:46:43,360 --> 01:46:47,960
Speaker 2: it couldn't have been one day conquered. But then it

2036
01:46:48,000 --> 01:46:50,839
Speaker 2: didn't become my problem anymore because I got fired.

2037
01:46:59,320 --> 01:47:04,600
Speaker 1: Okay, before you get fired, you were also running Paramount.

2038
01:47:05,000 --> 01:47:08,400
Speaker 1: What did you learn about the movie business? And having

2039
01:47:08,479 --> 01:47:11,320
Speaker 1: been deep in the trenches, what is your perspective on

2040
01:47:11,360 --> 01:47:12,679
Speaker 1: the movie business today?

2041
01:47:15,160 --> 01:47:17,680
Speaker 2: Well, I learned that it's a very opaque business where

2042
01:47:17,720 --> 01:47:19,880
Speaker 2: it's kind of hard to keep track of who does what,

2043
01:47:20,120 --> 01:47:24,720
Speaker 2: and you know, it's even though I learned that the

2044
01:47:24,760 --> 01:47:29,640
Speaker 2: feature film is king always on the hierarchy in Hollywood,

2045
01:47:30,160 --> 01:47:33,680
Speaker 2: nothing's higher than the movie business. Then came, you know,

2046
01:47:33,720 --> 01:47:37,720
Speaker 2: the sort of television business, the premium cable business. Then

2047
01:47:37,760 --> 01:47:41,120
Speaker 2: we were sort of at the next level basic cable,

2048
01:47:41,640 --> 01:47:43,360
Speaker 2: and then the music business that was like a whole

2049
01:47:43,439 --> 01:47:46,760
Speaker 2: other thing. They didn't understand that at all. They didn't

2050
01:47:46,840 --> 01:47:50,160
Speaker 2: understand how these music companies were making all this money.

2051
01:47:50,280 --> 01:47:53,599
Speaker 2: These guys were the most untraditional businessmen of all were

2052
01:47:53,600 --> 01:47:55,519
Speaker 2: in the record business. I found it to be the

2053
01:47:55,560 --> 01:47:58,000
Speaker 2: most interesting people and the most fun to be with.

2054
01:47:58,360 --> 01:48:04,320
Speaker 2: You know, all these guys scoundrels and clever people and whatever,

2055
01:48:04,400 --> 01:48:06,240
Speaker 2: but they all love their they love what they did.

2056
01:48:06,280 --> 01:48:08,799
Speaker 2: But in the movie business, you learn that the movie

2057
01:48:08,840 --> 01:48:12,800
Speaker 2: studio they take the bulk of the money. They'll find

2058
01:48:12,800 --> 01:48:18,880
Speaker 2: out ways in terms of you know, we were we

2059
01:48:18,880 --> 01:48:21,120
Speaker 2: were going to try and turn our brands into movies,

2060
01:48:21,200 --> 01:48:24,960
Speaker 2: which we did do. Nickelodeon, MTV, VH one had like

2061
01:48:25,280 --> 01:48:30,000
Speaker 2: that Ben Stiller movie, zoolanderv VH one. Everyone we made

2062
01:48:30,040 --> 01:48:33,200
Speaker 2: like forty movies over course of time and sort of

2063
01:48:33,200 --> 01:48:35,799
Speaker 2: sat at the hand of Sherry Lansing who helped us,

2064
01:48:36,200 --> 01:48:40,479
Speaker 2: you know, become accomplished movie makers from just being little

2065
01:48:40,479 --> 01:48:43,479
Speaker 2: cable weasels. I learned that everybody in my company wanted

2066
01:48:43,479 --> 01:48:46,719
Speaker 2: to make movies. You know, all my top creative people

2067
01:48:46,800 --> 01:48:50,120
Speaker 2: wanted to go to the movie studios. They wanted them.

2068
01:48:50,160 --> 01:48:52,160
Speaker 2: Everyone wants to make a movie. I mean, come on,

2069
01:48:52,200 --> 01:48:54,400
Speaker 2: I don't want to work on some Buffkis television show.

2070
01:48:54,400 --> 01:48:56,040
Speaker 2: If I have a chance to work on a movie,

2071
01:48:56,200 --> 01:48:58,920
Speaker 2: that's great for me. So it was, you know, there

2072
01:48:58,960 --> 01:49:01,559
Speaker 2: was a pre we ate of exodus to want to

2073
01:49:01,600 --> 01:49:03,800
Speaker 2: do this. But at the end of the day, we

2074
01:49:03,800 --> 01:49:06,160
Speaker 2: didn't make much money on movies, even if it was

2075
01:49:06,160 --> 01:49:08,479
Speaker 2: on our own ip. You know, we get a fee.

2076
01:49:08,880 --> 01:49:12,280
Speaker 2: And then we found out one sunder bought Paramount that

2077
01:49:12,400 --> 01:49:19,240
Speaker 2: we were an exclusive producer. In other words, we couldn't

2078
01:49:19,280 --> 01:49:21,519
Speaker 2: take if we wanted to make a movie, and they

2079
01:49:21,560 --> 01:49:24,080
Speaker 2: said no, we couldn't take it to Sony or Fox.

2080
01:49:25,320 --> 01:49:28,160
Speaker 2: So we were sort of the prisoners of Melrose Avenue way.

2081
01:49:28,200 --> 01:49:30,839
Speaker 2: It was unusual in the television business, it wasn't unusual

2082
01:49:30,840 --> 01:49:33,040
Speaker 2: to have an exclusive deal, but he didn't see a

2083
01:49:33,040 --> 01:49:34,720
Speaker 2: lot of that going on in the movie business. So

2084
01:49:34,760 --> 01:49:37,479
Speaker 2: that was a big frustration. So always had a little

2085
01:49:38,120 --> 01:49:43,080
Speaker 2: friction back and forth. And I'll say, like on the

2086
01:49:43,120 --> 01:49:45,559
Speaker 2: Paramount side, they found a lot of our people to

2087
01:49:45,600 --> 01:49:48,680
Speaker 2: be kind of arrogant, which was true. It wasn't like

2088
01:49:48,720 --> 01:49:52,160
Speaker 2: a perfect match. But we came to a good equilibrium.

2089
01:49:52,320 --> 01:49:55,360
Speaker 2: I can't say enough about Sherry Lansing. You know, she

2090
01:49:55,560 --> 01:49:59,000
Speaker 2: was gracious and great despite the fact that we often

2091
01:49:59,040 --> 01:50:02,280
Speaker 2: did stupid things. But we never got you know, I

2092
01:50:02,280 --> 01:50:04,720
Speaker 2: could make more money in a couple hours on television

2093
01:50:04,760 --> 01:50:07,200
Speaker 2: I could make on a movie and after absorbing all

2094
01:50:07,240 --> 01:50:10,439
Speaker 2: that creative energy. But we had some hit movies and

2095
01:50:10,479 --> 01:50:12,840
Speaker 2: it was always exhilarating when it happened. You know. We

2096
01:50:12,840 --> 01:50:15,880
Speaker 2: did movies with the Jackass guys, with the South Park guys,

2097
01:50:15,880 --> 01:50:18,639
Speaker 2: with Beavis and butt Head. We had movies like Election,

2098
01:50:19,160 --> 01:50:22,799
Speaker 2: Napoleon Dynamite. You know, we had a flair for finding

2099
01:50:22,840 --> 01:50:25,879
Speaker 2: some good projects. The Twilight series is a good example.

2100
01:50:25,960 --> 01:50:29,240
Speaker 2: Some it came to us, or before it came to us.

2101
01:50:29,400 --> 01:50:32,599
Speaker 2: We developed it from a book. We developed a script

2102
01:50:32,600 --> 01:50:35,920
Speaker 2: for Twilight, and Paramount didn't want to make it. We

2103
01:50:35,960 --> 01:50:38,120
Speaker 2: couldn't take it anywhere. It went to Summit. The thing

2104
01:50:38,200 --> 01:50:40,120
Speaker 2: went on to make like three or four billion dollars

2105
01:50:40,160 --> 01:50:42,840
Speaker 2: in box office. You know what they used to say.

2106
01:50:42,920 --> 01:50:44,880
Speaker 2: John Dolson used to say, I don't want to see

2107
01:50:45,800 --> 01:50:49,040
Speaker 2: some movie we turned down. Then you guys take somewhere

2108
01:50:49,080 --> 01:50:51,840
Speaker 2: else and it's a hit. It'll be embarrassing, you know,

2109
01:50:51,960 --> 01:50:54,799
Speaker 2: that kind of that kind of thinking, I would permeate

2110
01:50:54,880 --> 01:50:57,960
Speaker 2: it permeate in Hollywood in those days, wasn't just John.

2111
01:50:58,560 --> 01:51:00,960
Speaker 2: John was a guy that I was a really tough guy,

2112
01:51:00,960 --> 01:51:04,200
Speaker 2: but I really came to respect him. He was He

2113
01:51:04,280 --> 01:51:06,360
Speaker 2: really knew his rock and roll, he knew his music.

2114
01:51:06,560 --> 01:51:11,960
Speaker 2: He was a funny man. Anyway, we made, like I guess,

2115
01:51:12,000 --> 01:51:16,599
Speaker 2: forty movies over the years. They were largely lower budget movies,

2116
01:51:17,680 --> 01:51:21,680
Speaker 2: and most of them were profitable. And it was an

2117
01:51:21,680 --> 01:51:24,519
Speaker 2: interesting experience, you know, that being you know, have a

2118
01:51:24,600 --> 01:51:28,439
Speaker 2: chair in Hollywood. But at one point, yes, when I

2119
01:51:28,479 --> 01:51:32,680
Speaker 2: became the CEO of Paramount, reported to me, so now

2120
01:51:32,720 --> 01:51:35,920
Speaker 2: I'm like the cable guy, like Dave's aslov I'm like

2121
01:51:35,960 --> 01:51:38,759
Speaker 2: the cable guy. I'm in charge of a movie studio,

2122
01:51:39,960 --> 01:51:41,240
Speaker 2: which I had never dreamed of.

2123
01:51:41,680 --> 01:51:42,479
Speaker 1: So what'd you learn?

2124
01:51:43,320 --> 01:51:45,800
Speaker 2: Well, I had learned a lot, you know what. One

2125
01:51:45,800 --> 01:51:48,000
Speaker 2: of the first things I did was I got in

2126
01:51:48,040 --> 01:51:52,080
Speaker 2: touch with Bob Daily, who, with Terry Simmel, had the

2127
01:51:52,120 --> 01:51:57,360
Speaker 2: best run of probably any studio heads in history. And

2128
01:51:57,400 --> 01:51:59,960
Speaker 2: I asked Bob Daily to be my mentor and teach

2129
01:52:00,200 --> 01:52:02,799
Speaker 2: me the ins and outs, really the ins and outs

2130
01:52:02,840 --> 01:52:05,479
Speaker 2: of the movie business that I might not have learned

2131
01:52:05,520 --> 01:52:08,000
Speaker 2: just being a producer on the lot for Paramount making

2132
01:52:08,040 --> 01:52:10,559
Speaker 2: movies and handing them over to him. So he had

2133
01:52:10,560 --> 01:52:12,519
Speaker 2: his own little film school he set up for me,

2134
01:52:13,439 --> 01:52:17,840
Speaker 2: and it was good to sort of learn from the

2135
01:52:17,880 --> 01:52:23,040
Speaker 2: master how P and L's work, all the financial mechanisms,

2136
01:52:23,080 --> 01:52:26,920
Speaker 2: and so I got myself equipped. And then Sherry decided

2137
01:52:26,960 --> 01:52:29,519
Speaker 2: that she was going to leave, so I had to

2138
01:52:29,520 --> 01:52:35,599
Speaker 2: find a new studio head, and Bob. I had Bob

2139
01:52:35,640 --> 01:52:37,920
Speaker 2: interview candidates. I mean, the problem is all the studio

2140
01:52:38,000 --> 01:52:39,719
Speaker 2: heads in those days, they used to kind of rotate

2141
01:52:39,760 --> 01:52:43,840
Speaker 2: from studio to studio, and it was very rare that

2142
01:52:43,920 --> 01:52:46,120
Speaker 2: someone from outside the system would actually take up and

2143
01:52:46,200 --> 01:52:49,360
Speaker 2: run a studio. Bob Evans back in the day, you know,

2144
01:52:49,400 --> 01:52:51,320
Speaker 2: he was an actor. He ended up running Paramount. I

2145
01:52:51,320 --> 01:52:53,960
Speaker 2: had a pretty successful run, I must say. I mean

2146
01:52:54,120 --> 01:52:56,479
Speaker 2: some of those movies at Paramount cranked out Love Story

2147
01:52:56,479 --> 01:52:59,960
Speaker 2: in the late eighties, late seventies, Love Story, Apocalypse now

2148
01:53:00,120 --> 01:53:02,640
Speaker 2: gon All came out under his reign for a guy

2149
01:53:02,680 --> 01:53:04,320
Speaker 2: who didn't know what he was doing, and I ended

2150
01:53:04,360 --> 01:53:09,439
Speaker 2: up hiring Brad Gray, who was the partner of Berlstein

2151
01:53:09,520 --> 01:53:16,479
Speaker 2: Gray to run the studio. And then you know, we

2152
01:53:16,600 --> 01:53:21,360
Speaker 2: acquired dream Works. Brad got caught up in this Anthony

2153
01:53:21,400 --> 01:53:26,559
Speaker 2: Pelicano scandal, which really sullied his reputation and was a

2154
01:53:26,600 --> 01:53:33,040
Speaker 2: big drama for him. And that's where I was when

2155
01:53:33,320 --> 01:53:36,840
Speaker 2: I got fired, you know, I mean, I never really

2156
01:53:36,920 --> 01:53:40,320
Speaker 2: got a chance to I installed Brad at the studio.

2157
01:53:40,680 --> 01:53:43,080
Speaker 2: He was there for a couple of years. He ended up.

2158
01:53:44,160 --> 01:53:48,080
Speaker 2: He died at a young age, at fifty nine, a

2159
01:53:48,120 --> 01:53:51,960
Speaker 2: couple of years after I left. And that's my story.

2160
01:53:52,920 --> 01:54:00,439
Speaker 1: Well, David Geffen implored you to hire Brad Gray. In retrospect,

2161
01:54:01,400 --> 01:54:04,280
Speaker 1: did you find that people were doing your a solid

2162
01:54:04,400 --> 01:54:07,599
Speaker 1: or everybody had an agenda? You're better off just listening

2163
01:54:07,600 --> 01:54:08,280
Speaker 1: to yourself.

2164
01:54:09,880 --> 01:54:12,720
Speaker 2: People had an agenda a lot of times. But in

2165
01:54:12,760 --> 01:54:16,719
Speaker 2: the case of David, David was someone I had developed

2166
01:54:16,720 --> 01:54:18,519
Speaker 2: a relationship. He was the first guy to give us

2167
01:54:18,640 --> 01:54:23,080
Speaker 2: videos for MTV. He was the first guy we made

2168
01:54:23,080 --> 01:54:24,840
Speaker 2: a movie with. He called me up one day in

2169
01:54:24,880 --> 01:54:27,080
Speaker 2: New York. I was it was a Saturday morning. He's

2170
01:54:27,080 --> 01:54:28,880
Speaker 2: in LA He calls me like ten o'clock in the

2171
01:54:28,960 --> 01:54:30,559
Speaker 2: morning in New York. He says, you know, I saw

2172
01:54:30,600 --> 01:54:33,760
Speaker 2: Beavis and butt Head last night. Our first episode ran

2173
01:54:34,320 --> 01:54:36,880
Speaker 2: you know whatever, It was at ten o'clock. And it

2174
01:54:36,920 --> 01:54:39,360
Speaker 2: wasn't like somebody on his staff handed him a video

2175
01:54:39,400 --> 01:54:42,440
Speaker 2: tape and said check this out. I mean, was David

2176
01:54:42,520 --> 01:54:44,960
Speaker 2: was on the case. He said, let's make a movie

2177
01:54:44,960 --> 01:54:47,720
Speaker 2: with those guys. So so, all right, we'll make a movie.

2178
01:54:47,800 --> 01:54:50,000
Speaker 2: He was in butt Head, so he was always a

2179
01:54:50,040 --> 01:54:54,440
Speaker 2: source of good advice. And when I was going through

2180
01:54:54,440 --> 01:54:57,040
Speaker 2: the exercise of looking for people, it wasn't like he

2181
01:54:57,080 --> 01:54:59,840
Speaker 2: implored me. He called me one day and he said,

2182
01:55:00,160 --> 01:55:02,040
Speaker 2: was in Bay Route. I remember this. He said, I

2183
01:55:02,120 --> 01:55:04,920
Speaker 2: found the guy I think could work, which is Brad Gray.

2184
01:55:04,960 --> 01:55:07,040
Speaker 2: Because we had already been through. I had already been

2185
01:55:07,080 --> 01:55:11,000
Speaker 2: through all the studio hads I might want to hire,

2186
01:55:11,440 --> 01:55:15,040
Speaker 2: like say Stacy Snyder. They all had contracts and other

2187
01:55:15,120 --> 01:55:17,280
Speaker 2: people who were sort of on the second rung, they

2188
01:55:17,280 --> 01:55:19,640
Speaker 2: weren't really there. And I started thinking, well, maybe we

2189
01:55:19,720 --> 01:55:22,360
Speaker 2: look on the outside. Someone who's got the ability to

2190
01:55:22,400 --> 01:55:25,200
Speaker 2: deal with talent, who's smart about the business, might not

2191
01:55:25,320 --> 01:55:29,280
Speaker 2: necessarily have a pedigree purely have been in a movie studio.

2192
01:55:29,800 --> 01:55:32,440
Speaker 2: And David said, you know, maybe Brad's your guy. Brad

2193
01:55:32,520 --> 01:55:36,600
Speaker 2: was at the peak of his powers then he had

2194
01:55:36,600 --> 01:55:41,880
Speaker 2: the sopranos and he had started turning Perlstein Gray in

2195
01:55:41,920 --> 01:55:43,560
Speaker 2: a bit of a studio. He did Bill Mahery had

2196
01:55:43,600 --> 01:55:47,680
Speaker 2: a relationship with Gary Shannling. He really had a lot

2197
01:55:47,720 --> 01:55:52,520
Speaker 2: of aspirations and energy. And I had a bunch of

2198
01:55:52,520 --> 01:55:55,680
Speaker 2: interviews with Bob with the Brad, I sent him to Bob.

2199
01:55:56,640 --> 01:55:58,920
Speaker 2: Bob gave me the thumbs up. He really put him

2200
01:55:58,920 --> 01:56:01,320
Speaker 2: through the trail. Seemed to be able and whatnot. And

2201
01:56:01,400 --> 01:56:06,880
Speaker 2: we started out and he ran into a buzzsaw with Pelicano.

2202
01:56:07,480 --> 01:56:09,640
Speaker 2: That was you know, there was two front page stories

2203
01:56:09,680 --> 01:56:14,280
Speaker 2: about him and that really knocked him off balance. I

2204
01:56:14,360 --> 01:56:20,600
Speaker 2: must say he recovered. But and when I left, he

2205
01:56:20,680 --> 01:56:23,280
Speaker 2: was in charge of Paramount, so I hired Brad.

2206
01:56:24,200 --> 01:56:29,800
Speaker 1: Okay, you have all this experience. What's your view of

2207
01:56:29,840 --> 01:56:33,040
Speaker 1: these businesses today? In your book you say somebody want

2208
01:56:33,080 --> 01:56:36,280
Speaker 1: to start a cable channel and you're laughing, And then

2209
01:56:36,320 --> 01:56:39,240
Speaker 1: I get emailed that Morgan Roland is starting a field

2210
01:56:39,280 --> 01:56:43,800
Speaker 1: and stream channel. The movie business with a twenty five

2211
01:56:43,960 --> 01:56:48,040
Speaker 1: straight drama failures. Where's it all going?

2212
01:56:50,480 --> 01:56:53,840
Speaker 2: Well, Morgan Wallin should save his money. I mean, he's

2213
01:56:54,080 --> 01:56:56,120
Speaker 2: pissing in the wind, wants to start a you know,

2214
01:56:56,360 --> 01:57:01,720
Speaker 2: in the cord cutting era where the TV revolution has ended,

2215
01:57:01,760 --> 01:57:04,560
Speaker 2: and it's winding down these linear networks. Unless you've got

2216
01:57:04,600 --> 01:57:09,919
Speaker 2: some exclusive product that's really unique, like news or sports,

2217
01:57:10,160 --> 01:57:12,480
Speaker 2: you know, it's most of this other stuff's all available

2218
01:57:12,480 --> 01:57:16,120
Speaker 2: on demand on streaming services. He'd be smart to start

2219
01:57:16,360 --> 01:57:18,520
Speaker 2: in a different way other than setting up a linear

2220
01:57:18,600 --> 01:57:24,880
Speaker 2: cable network. But now, I mean, it's no one likes

2221
01:57:24,920 --> 01:57:29,720
Speaker 2: to see these movie studios disappear. I mean, we saw

2222
01:57:29,720 --> 01:57:33,440
Speaker 2: a Fox get gobbled up by Disney. Disney had a

2223
01:57:33,480 --> 01:57:36,520
Speaker 2: real smart strategy about going digital, which was doubling down

2224
01:57:36,520 --> 01:57:46,760
Speaker 2: and getting more being a really invincible content supplier. And

2225
01:57:47,240 --> 01:57:49,440
Speaker 2: you know, now we're looking at the Ellison's coming in

2226
01:57:49,480 --> 01:57:55,480
Speaker 2: and buying Paramount. And when I looked at, for example,

2227
01:57:55,760 --> 01:57:58,960
Speaker 2: the alternatives for Paramount, it's like my old high school.

2228
01:58:00,120 --> 01:58:01,920
Speaker 2: You wanted to end up in good hands. You want

2229
01:58:01,960 --> 01:58:05,360
Speaker 2: it to be solved. And they were having tough time

2230
01:58:05,640 --> 01:58:07,360
Speaker 2: in the wake of a lot of the bad moves

2231
01:58:07,360 --> 01:58:10,240
Speaker 2: that had been made. And here you have David Ellison

2232
01:58:10,800 --> 01:58:16,360
Speaker 2: who actually likes movies. He makes movies, and he's good

2233
01:58:16,400 --> 01:58:20,720
Speaker 2: at it, and they've made some movies. Had a wayward talent,

2234
01:58:20,760 --> 01:58:23,680
Speaker 2: he understands the business. He's got a lot of money,

2235
01:58:24,920 --> 01:58:27,800
Speaker 2: and you know, he made a master movie, put Sherry

2236
01:58:27,880 --> 01:58:30,520
Speaker 2: Lansing on the board, you know, I mean, you get

2237
01:58:30,560 --> 01:58:34,640
Speaker 2: a sense that Paramount's not going to disappear, which is

2238
01:58:34,680 --> 01:58:37,240
Speaker 2: good news. I mean, the town doesn't want to see

2239
01:58:37,240 --> 01:58:41,040
Speaker 2: another studio disappear. I remember back when we started MTV,

2240
01:58:41,120 --> 01:58:43,640
Speaker 2: there was like forty record labels. You remember these days,

2241
01:58:43,920 --> 01:58:46,120
Speaker 2: a lot of them started by entrepreneurs and run by

2242
01:58:46,240 --> 01:58:49,960
Speaker 2: entrepreneurs who who basically had instincts and tastes, and they

2243
01:58:50,040 --> 01:58:52,320
Speaker 2: kind of modeled these labels after their own taste. It

2244
01:58:52,400 --> 01:58:54,560
Speaker 2: was a whole different game. Now there's like two and

2245
01:58:54,600 --> 01:58:57,600
Speaker 2: a half record companies and a lot of stuff in

2246
01:58:57,640 --> 01:59:01,720
Speaker 2: the outer rings, but it's a very different business. And

2247
01:59:01,800 --> 01:59:04,640
Speaker 2: now people all over the town are losing their jobs

2248
01:59:04,680 --> 01:59:07,400
Speaker 2: and they're thinking, is Ellison going to take over Paramount?

2249
01:59:07,480 --> 01:59:10,360
Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean, I know, I know they

2250
01:59:11,040 --> 01:59:15,240
Speaker 2: on paper it would make sense for them to do it.

2251
01:59:15,360 --> 01:59:18,120
Speaker 1: Which about Paramount buying Warner just to be clear.

2252
01:59:18,040 --> 01:59:20,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would make sense. I mean they could. They

2253
01:59:20,040 --> 01:59:23,240
Speaker 2: could fold up a lot of stuff, save more, you

2254
01:59:23,240 --> 01:59:27,080
Speaker 2: know the old arguments, you know, make efficiencies in the

2255
01:59:27,120 --> 01:59:30,600
Speaker 2: back office. They could keep the movie brands separate, and

2256
01:59:30,680 --> 01:59:34,760
Speaker 2: they'd have more clout and they could compete more avidly,

2257
01:59:34,880 --> 01:59:38,000
Speaker 2: but you know, it would mean another movie studio disappears.

2258
01:59:38,360 --> 01:59:41,240
Speaker 2: I love I love the area of the forty record companies.

2259
01:59:41,400 --> 01:59:48,000
Speaker 2: I thought that was really cool, more interesting. But someone's

2260
01:59:48,000 --> 01:59:52,280
Speaker 2: going to get someone's gonna you know. David Zaslov did

2261
01:59:52,320 --> 01:59:56,000
Speaker 2: the deal with Warner Brothers because he saw a discovery

2262
01:59:56,120 --> 01:59:58,880
Speaker 2: was going to be in sad shapes if they didn't

2263
01:59:58,960 --> 02:00:01,960
Speaker 2: latch onto somebody, and he was able to engineer a

2264
02:00:02,000 --> 02:00:04,480
Speaker 2: deal with John Malone, whereas they were able to actually

2265
02:00:04,480 --> 02:00:07,800
Speaker 2: buy Warner Brothers. It was sort of brilliant in a way.

2266
02:00:09,120 --> 02:00:12,160
Speaker 2: But in the meantime, while they're trying to save themselves,

2267
02:00:12,920 --> 02:00:16,480
Speaker 2: you know, we're seeing the exhibition business not being great.

2268
02:00:17,480 --> 02:00:19,240
Speaker 2: You know, there was I think some hope this summer

2269
02:00:19,280 --> 02:00:21,280
Speaker 2: that people would like to go to the theaters, but

2270
02:00:22,400 --> 02:00:24,440
Speaker 2: more and more people now have theaters in their homes

2271
02:00:24,440 --> 02:00:28,360
Speaker 2: of one form or another. And it's what it was

2272
02:00:28,400 --> 02:00:31,920
Speaker 2: the word they're using now, and not affordable. It's part

2273
02:00:31,920 --> 02:00:36,720
Speaker 2: of the unaffordability problem going to the movies. So a

2274
02:00:36,720 --> 02:00:38,160
Speaker 2: lot of the money has been sucked out of the

2275
02:00:38,200 --> 02:00:41,120
Speaker 2: movie business. I don't know what happens, Bob, but it

2276
02:00:41,240 --> 02:00:44,920
Speaker 2: seems like more consolidations probably in the wings. It seems

2277
02:00:44,960 --> 02:00:48,320
Speaker 2: like the theater exhibition business is going to diminish, and

2278
02:00:48,360 --> 02:00:52,520
Speaker 2: it seems like companies that are big are going to survive.

2279
02:00:52,680 --> 02:00:54,720
Speaker 2: At the same time, you look around the edges and

2280
02:00:54,760 --> 02:00:57,080
Speaker 2: you see, oh, there's creative companies like A twenty four

2281
02:00:57,160 --> 02:01:00,120
Speaker 2: and Nion who are like sort of in the moll

2282
02:01:00,240 --> 02:01:04,080
Speaker 2: of small movie companies of your where they have good

2283
02:01:04,160 --> 02:01:06,480
Speaker 2: tastes and they can find a good movie and market it.

2284
02:01:06,760 --> 02:01:09,240
Speaker 2: Within the big system, you still have like Fox search,

2285
02:01:09,440 --> 02:01:13,280
Speaker 2: like and create, buy and create a buzz around, you know,

2286
02:01:13,440 --> 02:01:16,400
Speaker 2: tasty movies. I've always been a guy who was happy

2287
02:01:16,440 --> 02:01:19,240
Speaker 2: to sort of move around the edges rather than be

2288
02:01:19,280 --> 02:01:24,080
Speaker 2: in the mainstream, you know, mainstream movie labels. You know,

2289
02:01:24,400 --> 02:01:27,280
Speaker 2: it's a high investment business. You got to pay a

2290
02:01:27,280 --> 02:01:29,320
Speaker 2: lot of money. With that movie that's out now with

2291
02:01:31,520 --> 02:01:34,800
Speaker 2: I'm forgetting the name, it's getting to be that time

2292
02:01:34,840 --> 02:01:39,280
Speaker 2: of night. But you know, with the Leonardo DiCaprio and

2293
02:01:39,400 --> 02:01:40,920
Speaker 2: Serian Penn, I don't have you seen that.

2294
02:01:41,720 --> 02:01:43,960
Speaker 1: No, I haven't. Paul Thomas Anderson movie.

2295
02:01:44,360 --> 02:01:46,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good. I mean, it's phil You look at

2296
02:01:46,560 --> 02:01:48,880
Speaker 2: that and you go, that's good. It was fun, but

2297
02:01:49,040 --> 02:01:51,760
Speaker 2: you know, it's made the economy. It kind of even

2298
02:01:51,800 --> 02:01:53,480
Speaker 2: though it made a couple of hundred million dollars, it

2299
02:01:53,560 --> 02:01:55,200
Speaker 2: kind of fell short of what it needed to make.

2300
02:01:56,120 --> 02:01:59,240
Speaker 2: And I know Wonners Brothers has had some other successes,

2301
02:01:59,280 --> 02:02:01,280
Speaker 2: So it's hard to say what's going to happen is

2302
02:02:02,400 --> 02:02:04,280
Speaker 2: but it's clear that one something's going to happen in

2303
02:02:04,320 --> 02:02:07,440
Speaker 2: Warner Brothers. And that's maybe the most legendary of all

2304
02:02:07,480 --> 02:02:10,760
Speaker 2: the movie studios. You know, the one with the most

2305
02:02:10,760 --> 02:02:14,160
Speaker 2: cachet about it is an NBC universe A going to

2306
02:02:14,200 --> 02:02:16,960
Speaker 2: do something? Is Netflix going to do something? I don't know.

2307
02:02:17,840 --> 02:02:20,120
Speaker 2: You know, I never thought that the tech guys, which

2308
02:02:20,320 --> 02:02:23,720
Speaker 2: I always include Netflix sort of in that category. I

2309
02:02:23,760 --> 02:02:26,480
Speaker 2: never thought they were that hot on buying movie studios.

2310
02:02:26,520 --> 02:02:27,960
Speaker 2: I mean, they'd figure, why the hell do I need

2311
02:02:28,000 --> 02:02:30,800
Speaker 2: to do that? I can't just license them.

2312
02:02:31,080 --> 02:02:33,919
Speaker 1: I think they would only be buying it for the titles.

2313
02:02:33,960 --> 02:02:38,839
Speaker 1: I can't imagine I'm getting into production, et cetera. But okay,

2314
02:02:39,160 --> 02:02:43,600
Speaker 1: you're off the radar with your clothing business. Then you

2315
02:02:43,840 --> 02:02:46,320
Speaker 1: end up coming in the side door, going in mainstream

2316
02:02:46,400 --> 02:02:53,560
Speaker 1: corporate America. Sumner cuts you loose and you have enough cash,

2317
02:02:53,960 --> 02:02:59,320
Speaker 1: but you're offered some big jobs. Ultimately, you work with

2318
02:02:59,360 --> 02:03:02,320
Speaker 1: Shane Smith Advice, you work with Oprah, you work with Bono,

2319
02:03:02,440 --> 02:03:06,080
Speaker 1: and all those things are very fulfilling, but it's one

2320
02:03:06,160 --> 02:03:10,120
Speaker 1: step removed from the game without mentioning names. I know

2321
02:03:10,320 --> 02:03:13,360
Speaker 1: people who are contemporaries and you say how much longer

2322
02:03:13,360 --> 02:03:15,840
Speaker 1: are you going to do this? And they say, I

2323
02:03:15,840 --> 02:03:21,360
Speaker 1: don't want to lose access. So emotionally, you were offered

2324
02:03:21,800 --> 02:03:27,000
Speaker 1: other big jobs subsequent to some nerve firing you with

2325
02:03:27,200 --> 02:03:29,840
Speaker 1: hindsight to say I played it exactly the way I

2326
02:03:29,920 --> 02:03:34,080
Speaker 1: wanted or did you say I played it? But I'm

2327
02:03:34,080 --> 02:03:36,800
Speaker 1: not happy with the way some people treated me where

2328
02:03:36,840 --> 02:03:41,400
Speaker 1: I was. What are your feelings about your post paramount activities?

2329
02:03:42,080 --> 02:03:44,720
Speaker 2: Listen, I never fully identified with my job, like I

2330
02:03:44,720 --> 02:03:47,240
Speaker 2: know a lot of people do an entertainment business. I

2331
02:03:47,320 --> 02:03:49,000
Speaker 2: just thought, you know, there's a lot of different things

2332
02:03:49,000 --> 02:03:50,800
Speaker 2: you can do with your life. I had a great

2333
02:03:50,880 --> 02:03:53,760
Speaker 2: run there twenty six years. I kept my toe in

2334
02:03:53,800 --> 02:03:56,040
Speaker 2: a little bit on boards of some companies. I like

2335
02:03:56,120 --> 02:04:00,400
Speaker 2: working with Advice, I like working with Oprah, but there's

2336
02:04:00,400 --> 02:04:02,920
Speaker 2: no access I don't need. I don't need that kind

2337
02:04:02,960 --> 02:04:04,680
Speaker 2: of access just for the sake but I have a

2338
02:04:04,680 --> 02:04:07,760
Speaker 2: circle of friends. If someone doesn't want to be my

2339
02:04:07,880 --> 02:04:10,000
Speaker 2: friend because I don't have a position of power in

2340
02:04:10,000 --> 02:04:13,040
Speaker 2: the Hollywood structure, well you know, I couldn't care less.

2341
02:04:13,280 --> 02:04:15,960
Speaker 2: I don't really need them as friends. I got plenty

2342
02:04:16,000 --> 02:04:19,960
Speaker 2: of friends I've never been. I'm happy. In some ways.

2343
02:04:20,000 --> 02:04:21,840
Speaker 2: I felt relieved I didn't have to deal with a

2344
02:04:21,880 --> 02:04:24,520
Speaker 2: lot of this michigansh that's going on right now, you know,

2345
02:04:24,720 --> 02:04:28,080
Speaker 2: to be in the big game with the big companies.

2346
02:04:28,240 --> 02:04:30,200
Speaker 2: I know for some people that's their life and blood,

2347
02:04:30,200 --> 02:04:33,200
Speaker 2: but it never was for me. I never fully identified

2348
02:04:33,240 --> 02:04:35,960
Speaker 2: myself with my job, so it was easier for me

2349
02:04:36,120 --> 02:04:39,880
Speaker 2: to have this transition than maybe some other people. So

2350
02:04:40,240 --> 02:04:44,480
Speaker 2: I have no complaints. I also feel, at my age,

2351
02:04:44,840 --> 02:04:46,800
Speaker 2: you know, I'm sort of got to do good or

2352
02:04:46,840 --> 02:04:49,320
Speaker 2: thing going on. I went back to Afghanistan for twelve

2353
02:04:49,400 --> 02:04:52,480
Speaker 2: years to work with a company. I was making hardly

2354
02:04:52,520 --> 02:04:55,560
Speaker 2: any money at it. To me, it was so exhilarating.

2355
02:04:55,640 --> 02:04:58,839
Speaker 2: I thought we were really you know, this was a country,

2356
02:04:58,880 --> 02:05:02,280
Speaker 2: a company that had social purpose baked into its agenda,

2357
02:05:02,640 --> 02:05:07,360
Speaker 2: gender equality, civilizing Afghans, connecting them each other, connecting them

2358
02:05:07,360 --> 02:05:10,120
Speaker 2: to or I loved it. Trying to replicate a bit

2359
02:05:10,160 --> 02:05:12,040
Speaker 2: of what we had done I had done in the past.

2360
02:05:12,560 --> 02:05:14,760
Speaker 2: So again, that was a business on the margins if

2361
02:05:14,800 --> 02:05:18,000
Speaker 2: there ever was want in the frontier market, and it

2362
02:05:18,040 --> 02:05:20,480
Speaker 2: was a thrill to be there and do that. You know,

2363
02:05:20,520 --> 02:05:23,080
Speaker 2: it wasn't it wasn't paying me a lot of money.

2364
02:05:23,120 --> 02:05:25,840
Speaker 2: But how much money do you need? You know? I

2365
02:05:25,880 --> 02:05:30,000
Speaker 2: don't understand why a billionaire, for example, thinks he has

2366
02:05:30,040 --> 02:05:31,880
Speaker 2: to have two billion dollars, But the hell you can't.

2367
02:05:32,080 --> 02:05:35,480
Speaker 2: You couldn't spend a billion dollars. You know, you really

2368
02:05:35,480 --> 02:05:38,760
Speaker 2: have to put your mind to it. That's money has

2369
02:05:38,800 --> 02:05:42,640
Speaker 2: never been my motivation. I wanted to have experience. I

2370
02:05:42,680 --> 02:05:45,520
Speaker 2: want to have full experiences that I enjoyed with people

2371
02:05:45,560 --> 02:05:48,320
Speaker 2: I like. I want to be able to see parts

2372
02:05:48,320 --> 02:05:51,120
Speaker 2: of the world I used to dream about and continue

2373
02:05:51,160 --> 02:05:55,640
Speaker 2: to do that. Stay healthy and have fun. It wouldn't

2374
02:05:55,680 --> 02:05:57,880
Speaker 2: be fun running one of these companies right now. That's

2375
02:05:57,920 --> 02:06:00,280
Speaker 2: another thing. It doesn't look like these guys are having

2376
02:06:00,280 --> 02:06:04,240
Speaker 2: a ball right back. And you were there back in

2377
02:06:04,280 --> 02:06:06,080
Speaker 2: the eighties and the nineties, people were having a lot

2378
02:06:06,120 --> 02:06:09,480
Speaker 2: of fun running these companies. That ain't the case now.

2379
02:06:11,000 --> 02:06:14,760
Speaker 1: Okay, Finally, as someone who's been married a couple of

2380
02:06:14,800 --> 02:06:20,000
Speaker 1: times number of relationships. Can someone balance a high powered

2381
02:06:20,080 --> 02:06:24,280
Speaker 1: job like this with life, the life work balance or

2382
02:06:24,320 --> 02:06:27,160
Speaker 1: really the nature of these jobs they're going to consume

2383
02:06:27,360 --> 02:06:29,360
Speaker 1: so much of your time and mental energy.

2384
02:06:31,880 --> 02:06:34,160
Speaker 2: Well, a good question. You know, you really give up

2385
02:06:34,200 --> 02:06:37,640
Speaker 2: a lot to really throw yourself into one of these jobs,

2386
02:06:37,840 --> 02:06:40,240
Speaker 2: you know, because they're all consuming. But you know, I

2387
02:06:40,280 --> 02:06:43,240
Speaker 2: look around and I see, you know, there's people who

2388
02:06:44,640 --> 02:06:48,800
Speaker 2: I look at my friends in Ginianopolis. He ran Fox,

2389
02:06:48,880 --> 02:06:51,240
Speaker 2: he ran Paramount. He was doing as big as anyone

2390
02:06:51,280 --> 02:06:54,280
Speaker 2: could do in the movie business. And he and and

2391
02:06:54,400 --> 02:06:58,360
Speaker 2: are still happily married. You know, look at Jeffrey Katzenberg

2392
02:06:58,440 --> 02:07:02,120
Speaker 2: or Steven Spielberg. They been executives and producers and whatnot.

2393
02:07:02,200 --> 02:07:05,560
Speaker 2: They're still married. Everybody doesn't get divorced. Peter Turning, Peter

2394
02:07:05,720 --> 02:07:07,840
Speaker 2: Urnan is a great example of someone who was at

2395
02:07:07,840 --> 02:07:10,760
Speaker 2: the top and figure out a way to do it differently,

2396
02:07:10,960 --> 02:07:14,360
Speaker 2: you know, not on the sidelines, but in his own

2397
02:07:14,400 --> 02:07:17,680
Speaker 2: little field and space, by investing in companies and doing

2398
02:07:17,680 --> 02:07:21,600
Speaker 2: it really smartly. Well, you know, I don't see that

2399
02:07:21,680 --> 02:07:25,640
Speaker 2: divorce is necessarily a phata company if you have a

2400
02:07:25,760 --> 02:07:26,640
Speaker 2: high powered job.

2401
02:07:26,760 --> 02:07:31,200
Speaker 1: No, Okay, it's been great talking to you. Always great

2402
02:07:31,280 --> 02:07:34,840
Speaker 1: talking to you Tom. The book, you know you've heard,

2403
02:07:34,920 --> 02:07:39,320
Speaker 1: the surface of the story covers Tom's complete life from Connecticut,

2404
02:07:40,040 --> 02:07:43,320
Speaker 1: from the Liverpool Docks to the Hollywood Bull. As Matt

2405
02:07:43,400 --> 02:07:47,160
Speaker 1: the Hoople would say, the book is great. I couldn't

2406
02:07:47,160 --> 02:07:50,800
Speaker 1: put it down. Unplugged by Tom Freston. Tom, thanks so

2407
02:07:50,880 --> 02:07:52,680
Speaker 1: much for taking this time with my audience.

2408
02:07:53,360 --> 02:07:55,720
Speaker 2: Bob always good to talk to you and I appreciate

2409
02:07:55,760 --> 02:07:57,960
Speaker 2: this the poortant opportunity to talk about the book. So

2410
02:07:58,680 --> 02:07:59,800
Speaker 2: I'll see you soon out there.

2411
02:08:00,440 --> 02:08:04,920
Speaker 1: Absolutely to take care until next time. This is Bob left,

2412
02:08:04,920 --> 02:08:05,200
Speaker 1: SAIDs