1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy Vie Wilson, and we're 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: going to get into our usual uh story du jour, 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: but before we do, we have a little bit of housekeeping. 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: We do are I don't even know if I would 7 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: call it a sibling podcast or in any case are 8 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,319 Speaker 1: related podcasts. It started out as a sibling and then 9 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 1: it became its own thing. It's now it's more like 10 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: a cousin in a gateway. Um. This day in History 11 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: Class is back with new episodes. If you had ever 12 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: listened to it and then stopped because you were only 13 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: getting repeats, fear not. There's a new host, Gabriel Lousier, 14 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,239 Speaker 1: and he is a researcher and he is taking up 15 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 1: the reins of that. So there is new stuff coming 16 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: out right now. Yeah. Gabe used to work as the 17 00:00:57,640 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: lead researcher and a frequent guest on Part Time Genie. 18 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,319 Speaker 1: He's also been on Ridiculous History a lot, and he's 19 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: picked up this podcast with brand new stuff. So yes, 20 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: So if you are are aching for that that little 21 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 1: hit of history, every day that you maybe had before 22 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: and haven't had in a bit, go right back to it. 23 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: Happy Holidays, almost happy October with new this day in 24 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 1: history class, which I think might have actually started back 25 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,559 Speaker 1: with new episodes in September, but still it's October now. Yes, 26 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,919 Speaker 1: welcome on him. It'll be one. If you celebrate Thanksgiving, 27 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:35,199 Speaker 1: that's the thing you can be thankful for, uh, which 28 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,839 Speaker 1: is kind of a fun thing versus what we're talking 29 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: about today. We're right in the thick of Halloween season. 30 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: This is this is it. So I thought this might 31 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: finally be the time to pull out an episode that 32 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: I have been tap dancing around for about five years. 33 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: So if you have never seen the nineteen seventy three 34 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: horror film The Exorcist one, I'm so sorry. It's so 35 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: good too. Though you probably know what it is and 36 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: you've almost certainly seen images from it. It's so popular 37 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: that it ends up being spoofed on things all the time. 38 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: It is, of course a horror classic, uh. And it 39 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: won Academy Awards for Screenplay and for Sound. For sound 40 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: in particular who good sound design. And it was inspired 41 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: by reports of a possession and exorcism that started in 42 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: the Washington, d C. Area in nine and I say 43 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 1: started because it travels a little bit, as you'll hear, 44 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: and this story really, as we kind of unravel, it 45 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: becomes as much an examination of psychology and lore as 46 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: it is of relaying of historical events, and even the 47 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: veracity of accounts of those events is always in question. Uh. 48 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: This is kind of one of those things where you 49 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: people either believe it or don't, and there's much argument 50 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: about it, but it does make for great Halloween discussions. 51 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: So I wanted to point out there are a couple 52 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: of things that make this story really difficult to pin 53 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: down in terms of details. One, it was kept largely 54 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: secret by the Jesuit race who were involved, in order 55 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: to protect the identities of the family members who were 56 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 1: part of it. And to this was never a legal case, 57 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: so there are no government records of it filed in 58 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: any municipality that people can consult, kind of squirreling around 59 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: for information wherever they can. And as a consequence of 60 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: those two things, details have been added, omitted, or just 61 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: playing relayed incorrectly over the years. And there's also the 62 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: fact that the fictional version of it, both the book 63 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: The Exorcist and the movie of the same name have 64 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: become so ingrained in horror pop culture that when people 65 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: think about possession, the imagery from that fiction is often 66 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: what's foremost in their minds. But the real story is 67 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: a little bit more tame. So if you saw this 68 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: and are hoping for details like vomiting pea soup or 69 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: heads turning three sixty degrees, I'll just tell you now, 70 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: you're going to be disappointed. It's not quite any of that. 71 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: We're also not really going to relay all of the 72 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: nitty gritty here in terms of like what played out 73 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: during the exorcism and you know, various specific injuries and 74 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: things that were said. Uh, the focus on this one 75 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: is really kind of how it all began, how it's 76 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: been conveyed to the public, and how people have perceived 77 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: that case in the years since it happened. So, the 78 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 1: person in this story who was said to have been 79 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: possessed was a child at the time, was fourteen years old, 80 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: although that's also reported inconsistently. He was probably thirteen at 81 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 1: the time, and accounts that were published during these events, 82 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: he was referred to by a pseudonym that was Roland Doe, 83 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: and you may also see him referred to by the 84 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: name Robbie Mannheim, which was a name that was used 85 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: in the book on this subject written by Thomas B. Allen. 86 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: Alan noted in the text that this was a pseudonym, 87 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 1: but there seems to have been some confusion over the years, 88 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: because there are some sites that claimed that Mannheim was 89 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: the real name and not a pseudonym that Alan was using. Regardless, 90 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: at this point, the person at the center of this 91 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: story would be in his mid to late eighties today, 92 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,919 Speaker 1: so we're just going to stick with calling him roland Do. 93 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: And one thing to note about the priest's diary in 94 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 1: this story, which is considered to be the primary source document, 95 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: is that in many instances that diary is a recording 96 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: of certain events as relayed in accounts given by the family, 97 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: so it's not always necessarily a diary of direct observations, 98 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: but also notes on the memories of others. This diary 99 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: also does not note who relayed any of that information, 100 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: whether it was amalgamated from talking with multiple family members 101 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: at a time, etcetera. So even though this one document 102 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: is often held up as the evidence of everything that 103 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: happened in this case, that is not an infallible document, 104 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: and because it has its own more about where the 105 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: alleged few copies of it have been kept over the years, 106 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: and who has and hasn't seen it. Even the version 107 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: that is readily available to the public, which was published 108 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: as an addendum chapter in that book by Thomas Allen 109 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: written in he subsequently republished it with the diary attached. 110 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: That's not something we can really verify. We just do 111 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: not have access to touch that document and ensure that 112 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: it is a real thing. So we're gonna reference that account, 113 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 1: but keep in mind that we are not claiming it 114 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: is fact, and we can't speak to the veracity of it. 115 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: One other element of the story that often shifts from 116 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: one account to another is the location where Roland Doe 117 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: and his family lived. Sometimes it's listed as being in 118 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: the DC suburb of Mount Rainier, Maryland, and other times 119 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: it's Cottage City, Maryland. It's easy to see why there 120 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: might be some discrepancy here. Those two places are really 121 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 1: close together, a five minute car ride or, according to 122 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: Google Maps, the twenty four minute walk. In the late 123 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, writer Mark ups Asnick wrote an article that 124 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: appeared in Strange magazine and He detailed his efforts to 125 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,679 Speaker 1: track down the truth regarding a vacant lot in Mount 126 00:06:57,760 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 1: Rainier that was often said to be the site of 127 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: Roland family home. That he did some cross referencing and 128 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: old phone directories and information on a street renumbering that 129 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: happened in two and he was slowly able to piece 130 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: things together. And when he figured out who had been 131 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: living in the house that had been on the vacant 132 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: lot in the many people claimed was the exorcism house, 133 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: it turned out that the person who had lived there 134 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: at the time was a widower with no children, definitely 135 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: not a family with a teenage boy, and the lot 136 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: being vacant was because that house had been burned down 137 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty two as part of a firefighter training exercise, 138 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: long after its resident had died, and the dwelling had 139 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: fallen into disrepair. So pretty normal in boring circumstances, nothing supernatural. 140 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: After that, up Sasnic discovered again just through looking through 141 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,119 Speaker 1: public records and kind of connecting dots, that Cottage City 142 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: was the correct location. Up Sasnick mentions two articles from 143 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties that both placed the family home in 144 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: ount Rainier and specifically listing the address of the empty lot, 145 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: but Mount Rainier was mentioned as early as August nineteen 146 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: forty nine in newspaper articles that talked about the exorcism. 147 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: An article in the New York Daily News dated August one, 148 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: ninety nine reads quote the boy lives with his parents, 149 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: non Catholics, at Mount Rainier, Maryland, near Washington. Mark ups 150 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: Asnik said that he identified the family, but as other 151 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: writers have done, he did not divulge that information publicly, 152 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: and he also stated in that writing that he believed 153 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: that the priests involved had probably changed the location to 154 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: add another layer of anonymity for the family, but that 155 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: false information plus that empty lot had led to people 156 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: to build a lore that was shared both in the 157 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: oral relay of the story and at times even in 158 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: the press. So Roland was the son of a federal 159 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: government worker and the family on his mother's side was 160 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: fairly close knit. Roland was an only child. His grandmother 161 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: lived with them and his aunt Tilly. Again, that's a 162 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: pseudonym visited pretty frequently from St. Louis. Tilly is often 163 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: referred to as Harriet. Tilly is the name that was 164 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: used in the priest's diary of the events. We're going 165 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 1: to relay those events as they've been laid out by 166 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: people who say they had access to the diary. So 167 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: according to all of this, it's Tilly who is credited 168 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: with getting Roland interested in the Wigia board game. She 169 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 1: is generally described as being interested in spiritualism and as 170 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: having shared those ideas in lively discussions with her nephew. 171 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 1: It is unclear reading some of these descriptions today, if 172 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 1: this is a case of family members kind of playing 173 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: by indulging in discussions of ghosts and spirits for fun, 174 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: as a curiosity or just an exploration of possibility, or 175 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: if this aunt truly believed that spirits could and would 176 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: communicate or pass from one realm to another. Sometimes she's 177 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: characterized as like, yes, she believes she was teaching him this. 178 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: In other times it's like, well, they were kind of playing. 179 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 1: On January, Aunt Tilly died of complications of multiple sclerosis, 180 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: and in the days leading up to her death, the 181 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: family in Maryland reported hearing odd scratching noises in the house. 182 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: Roland's father attributed this to a rat or a mouse 183 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: and one of the walls. There was also a strange 184 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: water drip. They could hear in the grandmother's room, both 185 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: of which the family said stopped the day that Tilly died, 186 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 1: Roland kept playing with the Wigia board. His mother believed 187 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: he was trying to reach Chilly in the afterlife. As 188 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 1: this possession story became public, the interpretation of the situation 189 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: quickly became for many people that Roland had tried to 190 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: reach out to his aunt with the wigia board but 191 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: instead had contacted a demon. If this was what Roland's 192 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: mother believed, though, that's a little inconsistent with her behavior. 193 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: She often asks whatever she thinks might be manifesting, if 194 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: this is Tilly, Yeah, it's a strange thing where it 195 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 1: kind of goes back and forth in a lot of 196 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: the accounts that she thinks there might be some sort 197 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: of devil situation, and also keeps going Tilly, is that 198 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: you um, which maybe is indicative of how she perceived 199 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: her sister, but I don't think so. So Rowland told 200 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 1: his family that he had started hearing this sound of footsteps, 201 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: specifically squeaky shoes in his room at night, and so 202 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: one night, Roland's mother and grandmother went to lie down 203 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: with him in his room, and while they both said 204 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: that they did not hear it on the night in question. 205 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: They later both said that they did actually hear the 206 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: squeaky shoe noise. Both women later conveyed that they had 207 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: pretended not to hear it to avoid scaring Roland or 208 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: each other when they asked if it was Tilly and 209 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: to knock first three times and then four times a 210 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: separate time to confirm that it was her. Each time 211 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: they heard the requested number of knocks and felt what 212 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: was described as a sense of pressure upon them. Then 213 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: when they asked for those four knocks and heard them, 214 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: there were are also scratching sounds on the bed. That night, 215 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: the bed also shook, and the covers were described as 216 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: standing up, stiff and straight around the edges of the bed, 217 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: as though defying gravity, and then once they were touched, 218 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: they fell back into a normal position. Roland also experienced 219 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: a strange event at school not long after this, when 220 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: his desk started shaking. His teacher told him to stop it, 221 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: but he insisted he wasn't doing it. More strange, but 222 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: fairly small events were reported by the does, things like 223 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: hangers flying out of the closets or fruit floating across 224 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: the room, and even a Bible, moving out of a 225 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 1: bookshelf allegedly on its own, and falling at his feet. 226 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: Strange things also happened when the family went to other 227 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: people's homes, including one instance where the chair Roland sitting 228 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: on starting to spin. Roland always maintained that it was 229 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: not him doing these things, although initially his parents thought 230 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: he might have learned some kind of sleight of hand 231 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: from a magic book and to sided to trick them all. 232 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: A doctor and a psychologist who were consulted determined that 233 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: Roland was a normal kid. They could not find anything unusual. 234 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: Coming up. We're gonna talk about how things unfolded once 235 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: Roland's family consulted their pastor about what was happening, But 236 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:27,719 Speaker 1: first we are going to take a sponsor break. On February, 237 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: Reverend Luther Miles Shultz of the St. Stephen's Evangelical Lutheran 238 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: Church in Washington, d C. Became involved in Roland's case. 239 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: Roland's mother had turned to their minister for help, and 240 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: the accounts that the Doe family gave him of increasing 241 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: severity of the strange phenomena in their house led the 242 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: pastor to determine that the does should get a psychiatrist 243 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: more deeply involved in Rowland's case. While Schultz prayed with 244 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: the family over the matter, he didn't seem to think 245 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: this was a possession, but more likely a young man 246 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: in need treatment. He did not immediately share with the 247 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: family that he thought this may be a scenario not 248 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: of demonic possession, but one perhaps involving psychokinesis rooted in 249 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: some sort of psychological issue. The does told the minister 250 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: that a psychiatrist had already seen their son, and that 251 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: that doctor had said, as we said, he was a 252 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: normal kid. On the night of February seventeenth nine, Reverend 253 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: Schultz had Roland stay with him overnight so he could 254 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: observe the boy. Schultz's wife stayed in another room of 255 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: the house that night. Doe stayed at the Reverence parsonage 256 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: for twelve hours, and the minister said he witnessed various 257 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: phenomena that were the same as what the Doe family 258 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: had reported. The bed that Roland was trying to sleep 259 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: on shook. There were scratching noises. When Roland moved to 260 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: a chair, it started moving on its own, and it 261 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: tipped over when he was moved to the floor. The 262 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: palette of blankets that he was trying to sleep on 263 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: moved around the room. The following week, claw marks started 264 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: appearing on Roland's body. Reverend Schultz was convinced that this 265 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: was not just a psychological event, and also that he 266 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: was not equipped to handle the situation, and so he 267 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: suggested to Roland's mother that they consult a Catholic priest, 268 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: and that was when they reached out to Father Albert 269 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: Hughes of Saint James Catholic Church. Father Hughes was a 270 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: young priest in his late twenties. Hughes was pretty surprised 271 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: to have a Lutheran family asking him for help, and 272 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: at first he offered some holy water and blessed candles 273 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: to the Does so that they could use them at home. 274 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: They did, and Mrs Doe reported back to the priest 275 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: that the bottle of holy water had flown across the 276 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: room and when she tried to light the blessed candles, 277 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 1: things around them started to move violently. Father Hughes decided 278 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: to visit the Dough home himself to see what was 279 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: really happening, and this is the first instance when Roland 280 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: is said to have spoken in Latin. He said, quote, 281 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: old priest of Christ, you know I am the devil? 282 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: Why do you keep bothering me? So Huse at this point, 283 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 1: believing he might be dealing with a demonic possession, took 284 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: the case to the most Reverend Patrick A. Oh Boyle, 285 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 1: Archbishop of Washington. Oh Boyle was sort of unique for 286 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: a man in his position because he had not actually 287 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: ever served as a pastor in a church. He had 288 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: risen through the ranks of the church kind of from 289 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: a more administrative side, So he did not certainly have 290 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: a lot of specialized knowledge in possession, and we should 291 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: point out that most priests did not. Uh. He told 292 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: Hughes to perform the exorcism himself, which was surprising given 293 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: how young Father Hughes was and how inexperienced he would 294 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: have been in such matters. And he also told Hughes 295 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: not to write any of this down so that it 296 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: would remain secret. One of the measures that Father Hughes 297 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: took was to have Roland checked into a hospital where 298 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: he could be restrained. Various episodes and phenomena were happening 299 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: with increasing severity and frequency, so Roland was admitted to 300 00:16:55,200 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: Georgetown Hospital in late February or early March. The admittant 301 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: appears to have been done in secrecy, so the exact 302 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: details of this are hard to pin down, right, there's 303 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: no paper trail. Equally difficult to sift out are the 304 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: exact details of what happened once Roland was strapped down 305 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: and Father Hughes began his exorcism attempt. Accounts Very most 306 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: of those accounts were given after this took place, and 307 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: we still haven't gotten to the point where the priest's 308 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: diary was being used to record events as they were happening, 309 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: so again, everything is kind of after the fact. There 310 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: is a long persistent detail of the story that Roland 311 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: was able to get one of his hands free, pull 312 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: a spring from the bed that he was on, and 313 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 1: use it to cut Father Hughes. That detail has been 314 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: debated and contested. It has also even been attributed to 315 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: a different part of the timeline, But interviews with students 316 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: who saw Father Hughes each day in school because he 317 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: worked at a Catholic school, suggest that no one saw 318 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: him with any kind of arm injury during this time. 319 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: Uh that's particularly pertinent because he taught physical education, so 320 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: it wasn't like he could have hidden something like it. 321 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,880 Speaker 1: Um and Hughes never said that the injury happened, but 322 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: that attempted exorcism was abandoned. It ended, and Roland went home. 323 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: Shortly after this, Roland's mother said that she saw words 324 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,719 Speaker 1: form in blood on her son's skin. This is something 325 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: that none of the clergy or doctors ever corroborated, although 326 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: they did witness some strange rashes on his body. According 327 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: to Mrs Doe's account, during the time right after Georgetown, 328 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,880 Speaker 1: when she and her husband were discussing taking Roland to St. 329 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: Louis for help, that was a place where they both 330 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: had family, the words Louis Saturday and three and a 331 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: half weeks appeared on his abdomen, hip and chest, respectively. 332 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: Pastor Schultz discouraged this St. Louis trip and wanted the 333 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 1: does to check Roland into a hospital so he could 334 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: be cared for by a doctor he had selected who 335 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: had been fully briefed on the boy's condition. The Doze 336 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: opted against this, and they left for St. Louis on 337 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: March five. There is actually a letter that exists in 338 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: an archive of Pastor Schultz writing to someone and saying 339 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: like I really wish they would just do what I'm 340 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 1: asking them to, because I really think this kid needs 341 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: a doctor that is sympathetic to this case and some 342 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 1: psychological help. And instead they're like, Nope, We're gonna go 343 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: to St. Louis. That seems like the right move, and 344 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: you can hear his frustration in that letter. According to 345 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 1: the Does, they stayed first with one set of relatives 346 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,639 Speaker 1: and then another kind of debating what to do, and 347 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: Roland continued to have words appear on his skin, often 348 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: according to Mrs Doe answers to questions that she posed. 349 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: For example, when she suggested to her son that they 350 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,479 Speaker 1: might enroll him in school in St. Louis with his cousin, 351 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: the words no school are said to have appeared on 352 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: his chest. There is no official record of this or evidence. 353 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 1: It was in St. Louis that another cousin of Roland's, 354 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: who was enrolled at St. Louis University, cont acted a 355 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: Jesuit priest at the school that was Father Raymond J. Bishop. 356 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: In turn, Father Bishop consulted with Father Lawrence J. Kenney, 357 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 1: who suggested that they also loop in the school's president, 358 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,679 Speaker 1: Father Paul Reiner. Reiner told Bishop to go to the 359 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: home where Roland was staying, give a blessing and observe 360 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: the situation. He made this visit to the home of 361 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 1: Roland's uncle where the family was staying on the night 362 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: of March nine. After meeting with the family and Roland 363 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: and hearing their accounts of what had happened since January, 364 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: Bishop blessed each room of the house, and he pinned 365 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: what's called a second class relic, meaning something that a 366 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 1: saint had touched of Saint Margaret Mary, to a pillow 367 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 1: on the bed in the room Roland was staying in. 368 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: After the boy went to bed, the bed started moving, 369 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: banging around. Father Bishop saw this and later said that 370 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: the boy was perfectly still during all of this, indicating 371 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 1: that he was not in some way causing this movement. 372 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: The priest sprinkled holy water on the bed, and then 373 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 1: zigzags scratches were said to have appeared on Rowland's abdomen. Eventually, 374 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: the motion of the bed stopped and the family was 375 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: able to settle down for the night. The next day, 376 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: Father Bishop reached out to fifty two year old father 377 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 1: William S. Bowdern of the St. Francis Xavier Church. Two 378 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,480 Speaker 1: nights after Bishop's first visit, to the home. He returned, 379 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 1: this time with Father Bowdern, who brought with him another 380 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: holy relic. This was a fragment of bone from the 381 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: arm of Saint Francis Xavier. Father Bowdern also started a 382 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: dossier style study of Roland and his family. The incidents 383 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,679 Speaker 1: with Roland continued, and when the priests were there, they 384 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: would pray over him until the situation subsided. In some cases, 385 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: the family reported large furniture moving, sometimes blocking the door 386 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: to the room where Roland was. But Father's Bishop and 387 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,719 Speaker 1: Bowdern came to the determination that they needed to go 388 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: to the Archbishop of St. Louis, Father Joseph Ritter, to 389 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: make the case that an exorcism was needed. Neither of 390 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: them felt qualified to perform the ritual, so they were 391 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: asking the archbishop to also select an exorcist. So we 392 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: should be clear that this kind of request to the 393 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: archbishop has some layers. For one acquiescing to such a 394 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: request would likely meet with a great deal of skepticism 395 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: from the community and church members, who believed that the 396 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: idea of possession with something from centuries gone by, before 397 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,880 Speaker 1: humans had made strides and understanding things like mental illness. 398 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: It could very easily damage the reputation of the church. 399 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: For another, if it was a case of mental illness, 400 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,719 Speaker 1: attempting an exorcism would likely only make the situation worse 401 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: for a person who should be getting treatment from a 402 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: medical professional. And then there was just a possibility that, 403 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: regardless of whether this was some sort of psychological issue 404 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: or on the outside chance it was something supernatural, approving 405 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,199 Speaker 1: an exorcism just automatically put a priest in jeopardy for 406 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: like literal violence. Ritter is said to have given approval 407 00:22:56,359 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: for the exorcism, but named Bowdern as the one to perform, 408 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: insisting that the matter be discussed with no one else. 409 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: So a note on the attribution of the priest's diary here. 410 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's attributed to Father Bowdern, but credit is sometimes 411 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: given to Father Bishop. Father Bishop did conduct interviews with 412 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: the family and he took notes, but Bowdern started the 413 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: file on the Doe family and Rowland's case. Bowder later stated, though, 414 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: that because he had found sotal information on dealing with 415 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: possession cases, that he asked Bishop to record everything that 416 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: happened so that any future cases might have some sort 417 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: of literature to access. Bowder did involve one more person though, 418 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: despite being asked to not discuss it with anyone, and 419 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: that was Walter Hallerin. Hallerin is often mentioned as a 420 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 1: priest when the story is relayed, but though he was 421 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: a Jesuit starting in nineteen forty one, he was not 422 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,959 Speaker 1: ordained as a priest until the mid nineteen fifties, so 423 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 1: he was not a priest at this time. Initially, Father 424 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: powder And told the twenty six year old Halloran, who 425 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 1: was a friend and a former student, that he needed 426 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: a ride to a house uh and it was not 427 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,679 Speaker 1: until they arrived at the home of Roland's relatives that 428 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: he was told that they were performing an exorcism, and 429 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: then Hallerin would need to help hold the boy involved down. 430 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 1: Their arrival there, which was March sixteen, was also the 431 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: first time that the family was told that an exorcism 432 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: was planned. Coming up, we'll talk about the exorcism itself 433 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: and how this story made its way into the press. 434 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: But first we're going to take a break, and here 435 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 1: from the sponsors that keep Stuffy miss in history class going. 436 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: The exorcism started with prayers said by the entire family, 437 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: including Roland and then Father Bowdern began to read from 438 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 1: the Roman Ritual that's the book that contains all of 439 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: the service as a priest may be called to perform. 440 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: Every priest has one as bower, and spoke the prayers 441 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,159 Speaker 1: of the ritual. Roland's body began to react, according to 442 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: the diary account, with words appearing on his skin, including 443 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: the words hell and go. So at this point other 444 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,199 Speaker 1: people did say they saw them, and from there that 445 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: night spiraled into stages of Roland having sort of fitful 446 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 1: sleep and then having violent outbursts which required two minute 447 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: a time to hold him down. That's of note because 448 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 1: Roland was always described as a very slight boy who 449 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,439 Speaker 1: was physically worn down from weeks of lack of sleep. 450 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,199 Speaker 1: He also sang garbled renditions of Old Man River and 451 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: Swanny while he slept. Later on some other songs made 452 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: it into the repertoire, and then at seven thirty in 453 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: the morning he fell into what is described as a 454 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: quote natural sleep. For the next month, things played out 455 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: similarly every night, and they escalated in intensity. At times 456 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: he would urinate or use foul language, or spit or 457 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: exhibit what was called quote violence and demonical fighting. And 458 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: that was how it was described in the diary. After 459 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,400 Speaker 1: five nights of this, the decision was made to move 460 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: Roland to the Alexian Brothers Hospital in a room as 461 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: far as possible from their patients, so that his family 462 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: could have some peace. The sleeplessness and strain were really 463 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: taking a toll at this point. That only lasted one night, though, 464 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: as it really scared the child to be there when 465 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: he was in his more you know, typical or normal, 466 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 1: non violent state, and he spent another night at his 467 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 1: uncle's house and then moved to the rectory at College Church, 468 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: where he stayed for several nights. During these nights, the 469 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 1: rights of exorcism continued with similar violent reactions. During this time, 470 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: he was also given lessons about Catholicism with the intent 471 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: that he would be baptized. Yeah, the hope was that 472 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: if they baptized him as a Catholic, everything was going 473 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: to work a little bit better. So for several days 474 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 1: things were actually calm with no incidents. They had a 475 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: little ray of hope, but once again the pattern began. 476 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: In April, first Father Bowdern hastily baptized Roland with an 477 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: abbreviated version of the normal ceremony because Roland was in 478 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: and out of possessed episodes. So like the some of 479 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: the responses that he had to give verbally, he wasn't himself, 480 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: for lack of a better phrase, long enough to be 481 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 1: able to do them. So that's why they did a 482 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: very short version. The following morning, Roland received communion with 483 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: great resistance. Father Bishop and another priest, Father O'Flaherty, assisted 484 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: Father Bowdern, and afterwards they drove Roland back to his 485 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: uncle's house. While they were driving, Roland attacked O'Flaherty, who 486 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: was driving on the way. He had to be forcefully 487 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: pulled away so they could safely finish the trip. This 488 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: is one of those things was This is the least 489 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: of the questions associated with all of this. But does 490 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: does a diary or any other documents say anything about 491 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: whether his parents had given permission for him to be baptized? Uh? 492 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: The family appeared to have agreed to it. Yes, this 493 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: is a question that occurred to me, and at the 494 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 1: same time I was like, this is an interesting question 495 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: to be the one question that has arisen in my 496 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,879 Speaker 1: mind at this moment. If you read any of the 497 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: accounts by that point, Uh, they and his mother in particular, 498 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: were so desperate they probably would have gone along with 499 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 1: any plan so long as someone was offering to help them, 500 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: because they felt like they had been asking for help 501 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: and getting told like, no, he's normal the whole time. 502 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: Uh So to have someone actually like, we're going to 503 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 1: figure this out, they were like, okay, whatever you say. 504 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: So these episodes they still persisted. The exorcism was not 505 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 1: considered complete, but the Doe family returned to the Washington, 506 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,199 Speaker 1: d C. Area on April four, and Father Bowdern and 507 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: a father, van Rue accompanied them there. The reason for 508 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: this travel was so Roland's father could go back to work. 509 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: The train trip was uneventful. Once Father Bowdern was in Maryland, 510 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 1: he connected with Father Hughes, and the two priests attempted 511 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: to find a d C area hospital they would take Roland, 512 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: but none would for various reasons, including the fact that 513 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: the request to keep an admittance of a minor off 514 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: the books for secrets was deeply problematic. On April nine, 515 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: Roland was taken back to St. Louis and admitted once 516 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: again to Alexei and Brothers hospital. Travel was once again peaceful, 517 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: and once he was settled back in the hospital, the 518 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 1: priests began repeating the exorcism ritual as the boy exhibited 519 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: the same reactions we've been talking about already in varying degrees. 520 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 1: On the night of April eighteen, one day after Easter Sunday, 521 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: things were in a state of extremes. Roland was intent 522 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: on praying whenever he wasn't in the middle of an episode. 523 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: But these episodes, which were sometimes being described as seizures, 524 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: and the priest's notes, were particularly intense and violent, and 525 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: he lashed out at them. Then, just before eleven PM, 526 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: there was a vocalization from the boy that stated that 527 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: it was St. Michael commanding Satan to leave. Then there 528 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: was a particularly violent convulsion that lasted between seven and 529 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: eight minutes, which is an extraordinarily long time. When that 530 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: was over, Roland's stated He's gone. He then described an 531 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: angel appearing to him in a blinding light and confronting 532 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: the devil, and the devil and multiple minions retreating into 533 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: a pit. The next morning, Roland felt normal when he 534 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: was awake, he went to Mass for the first time, 535 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: and then just shy of two weeks later, he went 536 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: back to Maryland and resumed his life in an addendum 537 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: note in the diary, it is written that Roland's parents 538 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: also converted to Catholicism. That didn't happen until December nine. 539 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: I cannot imagine like watching a child having this for 540 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: that long, for that long, that's so long, that would 541 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: break me. I'm not a kids person, and that would 542 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: break me. Yeah, I have various questions. Once a priest 543 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: gave a lecture at the Mount Pleasant Library in Washington, 544 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: d c. To the Society of Parapsychology, in which he 545 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: told the story of Roland's alleged possession. When that happened, 546 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: it started getting press coverage. From the start of these 547 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: details being shared with the public, though, things were really inconsistent. 548 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 1: While some of the details could be considered inconsequential, like 549 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: descriptions of the Doe home, uh, those were all over 550 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: the place. Those inconsistencies indicate some problematic coverage of the case. 551 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: While some details were purposefully obscured to try to keep 552 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: the family's identity private, that meant that journalists sometimes filled 553 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: in details based on presumption or conjecture, and as different 554 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: journalists covered the story, more and more of it became 555 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: harder to pin down. Yeah. At the time. Uh the 556 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: condition of that priest giving that that lecture was that 557 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: he not be named. Eventually it came out that it 558 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: was Father Schultz Um. The Catholic Church never made an 559 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: official statement regarding the nature of what happened to Roland 560 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: Dome Walter Halloran said later in his life, quote, I 561 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: should never feel comfortable or capable of making an absolute statement. 562 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: And one detail that often comes up as an unanswered 563 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: question in this case is that Roland was said to 564 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: have spoken Latin to the priest during the exorcism. We 565 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: mentioned it earlier in the episode, and that's the language 566 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: he had never studied or had prior knowledge of. But 567 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: Halloran gave an account that kind of counters that. He 568 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: said that he thought the boy was just repeating phrases 569 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 1: that he had already heard the father say in the 570 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: exorcism ritual. When writer William Peter Bladdie reached out to 571 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: Father Bowder in twenty years after the incidents into the diary, 572 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: he was clear that he wanted to write a book 573 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: about what had happened. Bladdie had been a student at 574 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: Georgetown University when the exorcism had appeared in the papers, 575 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: and he was hoping to get a first hand account 576 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: from the priest, and while Bowdern wrote back to Bladdie 577 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: that he and a colleague had kept a detailed diary 578 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: of everything that happened, he also said he had been 579 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: instructed by church officials to keep the case out of 580 00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: the public eye and that he could not share those materials. 581 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 1: As we've already mentioned, they were intent did as research 582 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: only for the eyes of other religious figures who might 583 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: face the demon possession case. He was also worried about 584 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: the young man involved in the events and maintaining his 585 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: privacy and safety. So even though he didn't have an 586 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: account from bowder and Bladdie of course wrote the book anyway. 587 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: He did change the possessed child in his story to 588 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: a girl instead of a boy, and shifted some other 589 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: details and turned up the dramatic aspects of it considerably. 590 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 1: One of the things that often comes up is those 591 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: changes in voice that are very striking in the film, 592 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: when Reagan suddenly speaks in a completely different and demonic voice. 593 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: Those were never part of Roland's case, for example, and 594 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: when the book was published in nineteen seventy one, it 595 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: was an instant sensation. In nineteen seventy four, after the 596 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: movie had come out, remember it came out in seventy three, 597 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: Bladdie published the book William Peter Bladdie on the Exorcist 598 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: From Novel to Film, and in that he includes drafts 599 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: of the script for the film, as well as the 600 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: background story on his interactions with clergy involved and his 601 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: decision to change the main character to a girl as 602 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: part of his his desire to meet with their request 603 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 1: to maintain an ananymity Now. He says in that book 604 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: that there are five copies of the diary that was 605 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 1: kept by Bowdern and Bishop Uh, and that two of 606 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: those copies were in different archdiocese, two were held by 607 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: people who had been involved in the case, and that 608 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,319 Speaker 1: one was in the hospital where Rolando had been cared for. 609 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: Those numbers don't add up with how many copies of 610 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: this diary show up around around the world later or 611 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: people claimed to have seen Uh. So there are apparently 612 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 1: other copies, but at that time those were all that 613 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 1: Bladdie knew about. As for Roland Doe's life after the exorcism, 614 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: When writer and investigator Mark ups as Nick started looking 615 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: into this story in the nineteen nineties, he interviewed a 616 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,240 Speaker 1: man named Dean Landolt, who had been friends with father Hughes. 617 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,800 Speaker 1: Landolt said that the priest had told him that Rolando 618 00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: graduated from Gonzaga High School and quote turned out fine up. 619 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: Sasnik also interviewed people he had tracked down from Roland's neighborhood, 620 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: bost of whom described the boy as a bratty troublemaker. Yeah, 621 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: there are all kinds of stories you'll hear about what 622 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: happened to him later in his life, and uh, including 623 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: like maybe that he worked for NASA, which is kind 624 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: of funny to me, But maybe he did. I don't know. 625 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: But they're all over the place because nobody can verify them, 626 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 1: so nobody can say, no, you're wrong. Uh. What is 627 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 1: less commonly mentioned in articles about Rolando's story is the 628 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: interest in it that followed in the summer of ninety 629 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 1: on the part of parapsychologists. In August, the story that 630 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: a teenage boy had been freed from demonic possession was 631 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 1: reported in several papers in the u S with headlines 632 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: like case of haunted boy baffling to scientists. This is 633 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 1: all kind of related to that lecture that was given 634 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 1: by an at the time unnamed priest about this case. 635 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: At that point, the president of the Society of Parapsychology, 636 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: Richard C. Are Now relay the information that aligned with 637 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 1: Father Schultze's Night of Observations of Roland situation at the 638 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: Lutheran Rectory. But it seems as though the Society of 639 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 1: Parapsychology did not publish any additional conclusions about the case, 640 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: although I did find an article not long after that 641 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: about Richard C. Darnell and how he's the person you 642 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: want to call if you have any sort of paranormal 643 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: thing going on, which makes me go, how that worked 644 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,799 Speaker 1: out for you? But we don't have any any of 645 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 1: the scientific research that was sort of not promised but 646 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: suggested might be coming so well. And I feel like 647 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,760 Speaker 1: we should also just point out that even though paras 648 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: psychology sounds like psychology, which is a medical field that's 649 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: now a paras psychology is it's like the study of alleged, 650 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:58,720 Speaker 1: not necessarily substantiated phenomena. Yeah, it's basically anything that happens 651 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 1: in the realm of mental I'm gonna that can't be 652 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 1: explained by what would be considered orthodox scientific psychology, Right, So, 653 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,959 Speaker 1: had they published findings, it would not necessarily have been 654 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: findings that came about from like the scientific methods, right, 655 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,240 Speaker 1: not like we did an m r I and found 656 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,240 Speaker 1: something they would explain some strange behavior. Nothing like that happened. 657 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: To the best of our knowledge. This is such a 658 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: fascinating thing, and I will talk in our are behind 659 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,760 Speaker 1: the scenes about how the I associate this entire story 660 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 1: with my childhood for a variety of reasons, one being 661 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: that this was a very popular topic of discussion at 662 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: my house growing up. But since that is a strange 663 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: and many question marks kind of thing, I thought we 664 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: should end, since we are in Halloween season talking about 665 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: something delicious and fun in our listener mail. So this 666 00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 1: is an email from our listener who just signs it 667 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,720 Speaker 1: with the letter A, who said I had your podcast 668 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:03,960 Speaker 1: recommended to me by a friend after mentioning that I 669 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 1: listened to stuff. You should know. I've been listening ever 670 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: since and find your deep dives into different topics to 671 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: be fascinating and a lot of fun to listen to you. 672 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: This morning, I listened to the episode you did about 673 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 1: the history of waffles and wanted to take time to 674 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: email you guys and thank you for the episode. I 675 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,399 Speaker 1: had no idea that they go back so far, nor 676 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,399 Speaker 1: had any idea about their origins. I found it quite 677 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,919 Speaker 1: interesting that what we know as Belgian waffles are actually 678 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: quite younger than I thought they were. My partner and 679 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: I have Liege waffles, the ones with the pearl sugar, 680 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 1: and they are made in Belgium every week after our 681 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: drinking night as a hangover breakfast, either regular or chocolate chip. 682 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 1: We have them warm toasted between the plates of our 683 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 1: sandwich toaster. She has them with raspberry jam, and I 684 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 1: have them with BlackBerry or raspberry jam and natural peanut butter. 685 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: That might sound strange, but believe me, it goes perfect 686 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: with coffee, although I have had them straight out of 687 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: the pack before and they are just as good that 688 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,919 Speaker 1: way too. I live in Australia, so waffles are seen 689 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: more as a dessert item here, though you can also 690 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,359 Speaker 1: find them for breakfast in some restaurants. As such, they 691 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 1: are rarely, if ever served all a chicken and waffles style, 692 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: but usually with fruit syrup, butter and or ice cream. 693 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,319 Speaker 1: Thanks for your podcast. It keeps you both entertained and 694 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: informed in my little corner of the world, which is 695 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: purse on my almost daily walks and commutes. I love 696 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: to learn things about history, even if it's obscure or 697 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: just reminding me of something I already knew about. I 698 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,720 Speaker 1: look forward to listening to more episodes in your archives 699 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,280 Speaker 1: as time goes on. Thank you so much for this email. 700 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:30,239 Speaker 1: I love talking about waffles. UM, I believe that waffles 701 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: with jam and peanut butter would be amazing as a breakfast. 702 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: To it, I'm into it. Let's do it, um, and 703 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: I'm glad you're with us and listening, and hopefully we'll 704 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: have more fun food things that delight you. Now. I 705 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: want waffles really bad. I had chicken and waffles quite recently. Um. 706 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: You would like to write to us, you could do 707 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: so at History Podcast at iHeart radio dot com. You 708 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 1: can also find us on social media as Missed in History, 709 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,760 Speaker 1: and if you haven't subscribed, there's no time like the present. 710 00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: You can do that on the I heart Radio app. 711 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: Where where it is you listen stuff you missed in History. 712 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 1: Class is a production of I heart Radio. For more 713 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,839 Speaker 1: podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 714 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 715 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: H