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Speaker 1: As we get to the run up of not Just

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Speaker 1: Campaign twenty twenty six week Campaign twenty twenty eight, one

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Speaker 1: of the things I'm going to actively be seeking out

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Speaker 1: are academics and authors and historians that are that are

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Speaker 1: trying to lay out visions that look forward, not necessarily

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Speaker 1: relitigating the past and whether it's in How are we

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Speaker 1: going to reform and change and modernize the public education system,

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Speaker 1: which I think is something that I hope our next

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Speaker 1: presidential campaign can begin to discuss. And in that vein,

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Speaker 1: there's a terrific new book out by a professor at

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Speaker 1: the University of Texas Law School, by Michelle Dickerson. She's

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Speaker 1: my guest today.

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Speaker 2: The book is.

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Speaker 1: Called The middle Class New Deal, Restoring Upward Mobility and

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Speaker 1: the American Dream. This is more than just a white

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Speaker 1: paper of saying of aspiration. This is a book with

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Speaker 1: a detailed blueprint for how we should tackle this. And

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Speaker 1: what's in interesting about this and I'm going to shut

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Speaker 1: up here in a minute and bring in Michelle, is

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Speaker 1: that I view it as this better be a book

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Speaker 1: that anybody running for president, I don't care which party

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Speaker 1: you're running from, ought to read, because whether you're a

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Speaker 1: liberal or conservative, the goals that are outlined here in

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Speaker 1: this book, I think are something that frankly, both the

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Speaker 1: left and the right aspire to. We're just disagreeing on

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Speaker 1: how we get there. But it does begin here with

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Speaker 1: I think the reminder that in order to have a

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Speaker 1: middle class, you actually have to have government policy that

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Speaker 1: wants to have a middle class. And I think that

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Speaker 1: was before we begin our conversation. The most important insight

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Speaker 1: I think that I took away from this book. So,

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Speaker 1: without further ado, let me bring in Michelle Dickerson, University

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Speaker 1: of Texas Law School. Been there, multiple books, She's written

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Speaker 1: multiple books. Is again not a I don't this doesn't

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Speaker 1: strike me. It didn't strike me as a political book.

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Speaker 1: It struck me as a answer to the economic anxiety

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Speaker 1: that has essentially been reflected in what has been now

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Speaker 1: twenty years of what I call vote against politics. We

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Speaker 1: know what we don't want, nobody's yet come up with

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Speaker 1: the answer for what we do want. So Michelle Dickerson,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.

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Speaker 1: So let me start with this because I think you

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Speaker 1: know you hear the words new deal, and we've seen

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Speaker 1: a lot of economic prescriptions using the umbrella of the

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Speaker 1: new deal, right, and you know a lot of times

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Speaker 1: it's just borrowing a popular phrase to sell something that

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Speaker 1: people have been trying to sell for years. This didn't

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Speaker 1: strike me. They tell me your origin as to what

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Speaker 1: motivated you to put these ideas together the way you did.

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Speaker 2: The first thing I did is I thought about, so

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Speaker 2: how is it that we have a middle class? And

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Speaker 2: this is a point that you just made in the introduction.

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Speaker 2: We have a middle class because political leaders decided we

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Speaker 2: needed to have a middle class. Now, part of it

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Speaker 2: was in response to the depression, but after the depression

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Speaker 2: in World War one world War two, political leader said,

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Speaker 2: you know what, it's not a bad thing to have

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Speaker 2: a middle class. They do good things for the US economy.

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Speaker 2: And also as political leaders, we need to do good

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Speaker 2: things for lower and middle income folks who are looking

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Speaker 2: to achieve the American dream to have upward mobility. So

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Speaker 2: I landed on the middle Class New Deal because we

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Speaker 2: created the middle class roughly as part of the First

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Speaker 2: New Deal, and political leaders need to stop. And I

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Speaker 2: agree with the way that you framed this. This is

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Speaker 2: not a left or a right, or a Democrat or

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Speaker 2: a Republican book. This is a book for all political

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Speaker 2: leaders to make a decision do we care about the

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Speaker 2: middle class in this country or not?

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Speaker 1: I thought the most important insight and it's almost to

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Speaker 1: me it's the table stakes, right. If you don't accept

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Speaker 1: this premise, then you're not going to accept the premise

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Speaker 1: of the book is that somehow a middle class just

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Speaker 1: happens in a free market economy. The fact of the matter,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't. And when we lionize, you know, you know

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Speaker 1: we It's always one of those things. Everybody wants to

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Speaker 1: say they're in the middle class, right. It is popular

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Speaker 1: to be in the middle class, even as we aspire

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Speaker 1: to be. Even when you're not in the middle class anymore,

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Speaker 1: you still want to say, well, I've got middle class roots, right,

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Speaker 1: there's something about it, right, we want to be here.

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Speaker 1: But this is not something a free market economy creates.

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Speaker 1: Free Market economies, when left unchecked, create uber rich and

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Speaker 1: a lot of poor. It actually, it doesn't automatically create

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Speaker 1: a middle class. And I think understanding the history of

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Speaker 1: the great building of the middle class of the fifties,

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Speaker 1: the GI Bill, that was a government essentially making sure

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Speaker 1: the troops that came home didn't become poor, gave them

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Speaker 1: an opportunity to stay out of poverty, not even necessarily

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Speaker 1: bringing people from poverty to the middle class. The development

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Speaker 1: of the suburbs, the development of all of these things

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Speaker 1: were in support of the middle of creating a middle class.

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Speaker 1: And I think that might be hard for some of

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Speaker 1: my free market conservative friends to sort of wrap their

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Speaker 1: arms around, but guess what government actually has to create

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Speaker 1: the conditions to allow a middle class to exist. Did

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Speaker 1: I summarize your argument parently?

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Speaker 2: We did exactly, And what I would say is, if

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Speaker 2: you want to know what happens when the government is

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Speaker 2: not involved, look at what has happened to lower and

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Speaker 2: middle income people since the nineteen eighties. So if we

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Speaker 2: want the free market to control, what that means is

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Speaker 2: we will have the uber uber rich and everyone else

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Speaker 2: will be struggling. So it's really hilarious to me when

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Speaker 2: people look back at the middle class and all of

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Speaker 2: the wonderful things it did. It helps people go to college,

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Speaker 2: it helped people buy homes. But if we really wanted

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Speaker 2: to put labels on what happened that the factors that

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Speaker 2: helped to create the middle class, we'd have to say

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Speaker 2: things like socialism and interfering with free markets, And of

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Speaker 2: course nobody wants to say those words. The S word

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Speaker 2: is just horrible. Well, fine, don't call it socialism, just

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Speaker 2: call it what do we think this government owes to

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Speaker 2: people who work hard, get up every day and try

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Speaker 2: to do the right thing, and yet continue to struggle.

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Speaker 2: If your response is we owe them nothing, then we

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Speaker 2: need to just say that.

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Speaker 1: Well, and you know I can make a national security

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Speaker 1: are if you want a stable and thriving population that

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Speaker 1: also is patriotic, then you better have a sustainable middle

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Speaker 1: class if we don't have one, Yeah, if we.

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Speaker 2: Want a happy be population. So if again, even ignoring

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Speaker 2: whether or not you care about the economic security of

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Speaker 2: most families in this country, one of the things that

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Speaker 2: I always say when people ask me, well, why is

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Speaker 2: it so good to have a middle class? I can

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Speaker 2: point to lots of things like toasters, or trash cans

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Speaker 2: or Ford pickup trucks. Billionaires can only buy so many

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Speaker 2: of those. So even if you don't care about the

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Speaker 2: stability of human beings, the economic stability of human beings,

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Speaker 2: y'all ought to care whether or not you can sell

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Speaker 2: lots of pickup trucks and trash cans and microwaves. That's

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Speaker 2: what the middle past also does. They drive spending in

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Speaker 2: this economy. And if they're struggling financially, or if they're

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Speaker 2: scared and we're seeing a lot of fear now, which

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Speaker 2: is also unhealthy, then we're going to have a week economy.

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Speaker 1: So I feel as if that you're you made a

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Speaker 1: case in this book that government in sort of supporting

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Speaker 1: the middle class. It's not about guaranteeing a certain level

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Speaker 1: of income. But it is about guaranteeing and the following items, uh,

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Speaker 1: the ability, stable employment, predictable health costs, affordable education, pathways

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Speaker 1: to home ownership, and retirement security. And that those things

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Speaker 1: Government has to involve itself if you want to have

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Speaker 1: those guarantees, and that that that middle class is less

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Speaker 1: about income and more about does the average American able

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Speaker 1: to achieve those five goals in life?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And one of the things when I talk about

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Speaker 2: the middle class that I always stress is people who

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Speaker 2: are struggling financially are not saying we need to be billionaires.

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Speaker 2: They're simply saying, why is it so hard for me

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Speaker 2: to find a full time job forty hours a week

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Speaker 2: with benefits including health insurance and a retirement plan where

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Speaker 2: I am called an employee when I go to work

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Speaker 2: and not an independent contractor? So why is that so hard?

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Speaker 2: Why is it so hard for me to be able

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Speaker 2: to either go to college myself and not drown myself

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Speaker 2: in student loan debt or help my kids go to college?

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Speaker 2: Why is it so hard for me? And I'll tweak

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Speaker 2: one thing that you said, it's not so much now

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Speaker 2: to be able to own your own home. It's to

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Speaker 2: be able to find affordable housing, even to rent in

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Speaker 2: a lot of cities. Why is it so hard for

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Speaker 2: me to find stable and secure housing? Why am I

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Speaker 2: drowning in debt? Why don't I have savings? So you're

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Speaker 2: absolutely right. My book isn't arguing that everybody needs to

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Speaker 2: earn the same thing, but everybody in this country that

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Speaker 2: works hard and wants to achieve. Whether we call it

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Speaker 2: the American Dream, upward mobility, I really don't care.

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Speaker 1: But everyone that wants to.

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Speaker 2: Be stable should have the opportunity to do that.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about let's pick out these things one

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Speaker 1: at a time. So the role, What are some ideas

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Speaker 1: that government could do to create a more stable employment environment.

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Speaker 2: Well, one thing is to focus on what I just said,

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Speaker 2: why do we continue to allow businesses to treat their

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Speaker 2: employees as independent contractors? Because if you say they don't

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Speaker 2: have to treat them as employees, then that means they're

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Speaker 2: not guaranteed forty hours a week, they don't get benefits,

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Speaker 2: they don't have the right to unionize. So we need

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Speaker 2: to start asking why is it that we allow companies

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Speaker 2: to outsource whole swaths of their employment of their employees

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Speaker 2: and the back as an independent contractor. We have to

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Speaker 2: ask why is it. In the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 2: people that worked had a defined benefit pension plan. That's

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Speaker 2: what my parents have and I talk about them in

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Speaker 2: the book. My parents get two I won't say checks,

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Speaker 2: because it's not checks anymore. Two deposits into their checking

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Speaker 2: account every month because they worked their entire lives and

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Speaker 2: they have guaranteed retirement income. I am terrified to think

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Speaker 2: what we're going to see in about ten years when

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Speaker 2: people start retiring. They don't have pensions and they have

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Speaker 2: not much saved in a defined contribution for a one

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Speaker 2: K four three B plan.

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Speaker 1: Oh, baby boomers are the last ones that got pensions,

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Speaker 1: and ZAC gen X is the first generation. You know,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're the ones that I had to figure

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Speaker 1: out what is four O one K mean? Okay, it's

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Speaker 1: like alphabet soup? Yeah, right, Ira roth Ira? What is that? Right?

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Speaker 1: There were all these sort of new sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: tax coded you know, numbers and numerologies or the names

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Speaker 1: after senators who came up with the idea that we're

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Speaker 1: all designed essentially to keep Americans from being angry that

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Speaker 1: pensions were going away. I don't know any other way

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Speaker 1: to describe it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they shifted the risk of retirement security from employers

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Speaker 2: to employees, and they did it in ways that was

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Speaker 2: designed for us to end up exactly where we are.

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Speaker 2: I remember the first time I had my first job.

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Speaker 2: It was at a law firm, I think, and I

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Speaker 2: went there and I had to actually look at the

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Speaker 2: retirement offerings. I mean, I was a bankruptcy lawyer and

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Speaker 2: I've graduated from law school. It so terrified me. I

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Speaker 2: had to put it down and come back the next

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Speaker 2: day because it was so complicated. Well, if I can't

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Speaker 2: figure it out, imagine just a normal didn't doesn't have

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Speaker 2: two degree, you know, isn't in bankruptcy employee that's sitting

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Speaker 2: down trying to figure out what do I need to

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Speaker 2: invest in, and when do I think I'm going to retire,

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Speaker 2: and what level of income do I think I'm going

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Speaker 2: to need the things that employers used to do for

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Speaker 2: their workers.

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Speaker 1: Look, politically, that's going to be very difficult, right you

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Speaker 1: look at Let's just take FedEx in Amazon. Right. FedEx

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Speaker 1: is an older company that arguably is the first major

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Speaker 1: company to succeed with independent contractors. Right and Amazon obviously

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Speaker 1: many of these people that work at Amazon don't work

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Speaker 1: for Amazon right there, they're independent contractor. They have a

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Speaker 1: lot of political leverage, right and the whole And there's

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Speaker 1: some that will argue, well, independent contractors allow people to

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Speaker 1: make more money because it can be a side hustle

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Speaker 1: and right. You know, there are different ways that have

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Speaker 1: been used frankly to convince or persuade parts of the population. No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: no no. These these empower you, These don't hurt you,

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Speaker 1: you know. And I'm not asking you to be a

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Speaker 1: political messaging guru here, but I think that's going to

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Speaker 1: be the political challenge to an obvious policy conundrum. Right.

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Speaker 2: And we talk a lot about freedom and choice. So

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Speaker 2: you have the freedom. You can choose not to work

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Speaker 2: forty hours a week you want to have you want

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Speaker 2: to be an independent contract it's good for you. You can

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Speaker 2: choose to work in the gig economy, you know, pick

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Speaker 2: up a little bit of work here and there. But

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Speaker 2: if you actually talk to the people who are exercising

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Speaker 2: the choice to be an independent contractor, it's not a choice.

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Speaker 2: And I can say this from personal experience. I have

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Speaker 2: a twenty five year old son who worked briefly for Amazon,

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Speaker 2: but he didn't work for Amazon. He worked for a

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Speaker 2: delivery service provider and they treated him very well. But

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day, he was never going

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Speaker 2: to work for Amazon, and he was never going to

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Speaker 2: get forty hours a week working at the DSP because

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Speaker 2: it wasn't set up for them to be full time

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Speaker 2: forty hour a week. You got to give them benefits.

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Speaker 1: Do you think this has to be mandatory legislation that

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Speaker 1: basically says is there you know, can you design what

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Speaker 1: would a what would a simple piece of legislation do

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Speaker 1: to sort of dissuade the independent contractor route.

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Speaker 2: Well, several states have actually tried. I think California tried.

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Speaker 2: All have failed, but several states have tried. Basically, if

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Speaker 2: you have someone that is doing the same work that

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Speaker 2: people you called employees are doing, those people must be

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Speaker 2: treated like employees, whether you call them contractors or not.

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Speaker 2: So give them health insurance, allow them to participate in

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Speaker 2: the retirement plans, and more importantly, allow them to organize

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Speaker 2: and to participate in any or union organizing attempts at

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Speaker 2: your company. Because at the end of the day, when

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Speaker 2: you have fewer employees your cost or less as a business,

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Speaker 2: and you're not at grade of a risk of having

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Speaker 2: a strong union presence, because if you have fewer employees,

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Speaker 2: you're less likely to have to deal with those pesky unions.

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Speaker 1: Health cust You know there was a time, I want

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Speaker 1: to say twenty years ago, where I thought that there

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Speaker 1: was a deal to be cut with big business. You

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Speaker 1: know I would hear the complaints, you know, because I've

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Speaker 1: worked where I worked I'd have interactions with this CEO

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Speaker 1: of ge and I've had interactions with the CEO of

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Speaker 1: Comcast and interactions with other CEOs, and all of them

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Speaker 1: would complain about the cost of healthcare, and so you

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Speaker 1: could I always thought that there was this great grand

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Speaker 1: bargain where the government would say, look, we can save

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Speaker 1: you some money. We'll take care of health We'll take

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Speaker 1: healthcare out of your situation. Then you can go back

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Speaker 1: to having pensions or you can go back to you

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Speaker 1: know that there was this grand bargain to be had,

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Speaker 1: so to tackle predictable health costs, you know, is it

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Speaker 1: realistic to stick with the employer based healthcare system that

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Speaker 1: ultimately we're still kind of attached to, even though the

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Speaker 1: Affordable Care Act was supposed to make this a bit

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Speaker 1: more portable. Do you think we need policy fixes that

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Speaker 1: sort of deal with the world that we live in,

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Speaker 1: or do we need to radically rethink how we deliver

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Speaker 1: health insurance to folks or health care.

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Speaker 2: I would say we need to make a radical change.

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Speaker 2: And these are a couple of options. And I'll lead

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Speaker 2: into this by telling a story involving a class that

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Speaker 2: I taught at ut So it was a class that

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Speaker 2: had both law students, public policy students, schools from students

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Speaker 2: from a school of education, and foreign exchange students. So

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Speaker 2: we were talking about the middle class and this particular

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Speaker 2: class session we were talking about insurance and one of

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Speaker 2: the students from the Netherlands finally asked a question says,

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Speaker 2: I don't understand why when we're talking about health insurance

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Speaker 2: you all keep talking about jobs. What do jobs have

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Speaker 2: to do with anything? And then we had to explain

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Speaker 2: to her, Well, in the US, that's how we provide

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Speaker 2: health insurance. So if we leave it with businesses, businesses

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Speaker 2: have to assume the cost. So rather than pushing the

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Speaker 2: cost onto employees, tell them that, you know, whether we

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Speaker 2: want to say that there are caps on what they

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Speaker 2: can charge or but businesses can lobby Congress and be

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Speaker 2: much more effective in coming up with solution that individual

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Speaker 2: employees can. I will also say, and this is not

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Speaker 2: necessarily a model that can be scaled, but when we

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Speaker 2: look at the way that a military personnel in this country,

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Speaker 2: how they receive health insurance, they receive it from the government.

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Speaker 2: Is it perfect? They would probably say no, Is everyone covered?

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Speaker 2: Yes they are. So we have to do something radical

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Speaker 2: because we can't continue with the status quo. And I

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Speaker 2: would also again thinking back to the past, although I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to stick say in the past, I want

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Speaker 2: us to be thinking in terms of the.

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Speaker 1: Oh, and this is the point of your book is

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Speaker 1: to stop. You know, we can't relitigate stuff.

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Speaker 2: That that has happened yet.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: But the reason that we have so many employee benefits

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Speaker 2: tied into work was because in World War Two there

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Speaker 2: was a wage controls, so they couldn't increase wages. So

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Speaker 2: what businesses did is say, oh, but we can give

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Speaker 2: you non wage benefits. Once that happened, it became the norm.

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Speaker 2: And so one of the things I want political leaders

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Speaker 2: to do is to say, well, if it wasn't the

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Speaker 2: norm until we created it, maybe we can create something

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Speaker 2: new and that'll then become.

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Speaker 1: The norm, a new essentially some new norms exactly if

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Speaker 1: you want. But you're right, I mean it was people

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Speaker 1: would panic if they found out healthcare wasn't connected to work. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: that's what Look, that's what the Clintons found out when

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Speaker 1: they first touched the healthcare back in ninety three. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

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Speaker 1: People hate the system, but they like their own health.

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Speaker 2: Care exactly, and they're always afraid that, well, I have

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Speaker 2: to have the best health care and I have to

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Speaker 2: have every single procedure that I want covered. And that's

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Speaker 2: great that in theory, until you lose your job and

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Speaker 2: then you have no health care. So one of the

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Speaker 2: discussions we're going to have to have is to ask people,

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Speaker 2: are you going to fight for what you have right now,

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Speaker 2: knowing that if you lose your job you have nothing?

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Speaker 1: You know, I what are I think there are real

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Speaker 1: trade offs here that might be net positives for everybody,

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Speaker 1: right if the government takes on the role of essentially

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Speaker 1: guaranteeing insurance, guarantee health care, access to healthcare, in theory,

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Speaker 1: that should free up money for corporations. I mean, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. You know, we don't do

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Speaker 1: nuance very well in our country anymore in our political debates.

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Speaker 1: But you know, that seems to be the type of

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Speaker 1: thing that that that in a in a mature setting,

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Speaker 1: that that people would accept the idea that this is

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Speaker 1: trade offs. This isn't you know. Okay, I want this guarantee,

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Speaker 1: but it means it won't get it over here, okay,

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Speaker 1: and you put it out.

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Speaker 2: There, Yeah, I mean we're again at the where we

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Speaker 2: unfortunately spend most of our time in the political space

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Speaker 2: with you know, we let perfect be the enemy of good, right,

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Speaker 2: and so why not say these are the six things

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Speaker 2: that we think people in this country deserve. And if

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Speaker 2: we can agree that everyone deserves healthcare, everyone deserves some

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Speaker 2: kind of retirement security, we can then say, Okay, now

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Speaker 2: that we've agreed on that, who do we think should

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Speaker 2: be responsible for providing it? Ignoring who may be providing

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00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 2: it right now, but who going forward do we think

435
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 2: should be responsible for providing it? That to me is

436
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 2: a much more productive conversation than relitigating, well, it's not

437
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 2: fair if businesses have to do this and it increase

438
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,119
Speaker 2: their costs. Okay, let's just assume that your true. Let's

439
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: go forward.

440
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: Let's talk about affordable education. You know, one of the

441
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: head scratchers to me, I was convinced back in the

442
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,719
Speaker 1: mid nineties that it was inevitable that we were going

443
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,880
Speaker 1: to what I called thirteenth and fourteenth grade, that we

444
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 1: were going that public education was essentially going to extend

445
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 1: another two years, that there was going to be guaranteed

446
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 1: public education up through quote unquote fourteen years of it,

447
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 1: so you divided up how you want to divide it up. Right,

448
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 1: You had your primary and secondary, and then you have

449
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 1: essentially free community college, right the first two years of

450
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: community college. The fact that we haven't gotten there, you know,

451
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: the fact that we're still, like a think, debating university

452
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: universal kindergarten in some states we have, I would argue

453
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 1: the entire our education debate is just sort of stalled, right,

454
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 1: and we're stuck with this terrible system of charters and

455
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,959
Speaker 1: where everybody has taken education in their own hands. And

456
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,199
Speaker 1: you know, you're discussing in some cases more about higher education.

457
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: But I feel like the entire educational system just desperately

458
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 1: needs a twenty first century makeover, and it's so politically

459
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 1: polarized that we don't know how to do it. What

460
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: are a few steps, a few ideas you're putting out

461
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 1: there in the book that you think could make a

462
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 1: tangible progress here.

463
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 2: Well, I'll leave by saying one group that we also

464
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 2: have to bring into this discussion our employers. Because even

465
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 2: if we had K fourteen and everyone had a free

466
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,479
Speaker 2: community college education, employers need to be willing to hire

467
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 2: them and pay them a decent wage. The challenge now

468
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 2: is that the bachelor's degree has largely become the gateway

469
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 2: to the middle class. So employers also need to come

470
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 2: into the conversation and say, we're going to hire people

471
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 2: and treat them decently even if they don't have a

472
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 2: bachelor's degree. But you're absolutely right, we've got to look

473
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 2: at what happens starting in kindergarten. I would like to

474
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: start actually in preschool as well, And how do we

475
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,959
Speaker 2: treat lower and middle income children in public schools, And

476
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 2: how do we treat rich children and lower rich children

477
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: who are more likely to be educated in private schools.

478
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: So we need to have an honest discussion when we're

479
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 2: talking about charters and vouchers and all of these other things.

480
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 2: Most lower and middle income kids in this country are

481
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 2: educated in a public school somewhere. If they are in

482
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: a rural area. There are no such things as choice options.

483
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 2: There's no choice.

484
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 1: To say this all the time. I mean, you know,

485
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: it's essentially homeschool exactly. That's the only realistic option if

486
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: you don't like your school.

487
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 2: And some parents are doing that. But as we saw

488
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 2: during COVID, exactly parents were like, oh my goodness, we

489
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 2: love our school. Teachers, Boy, can we get these children back?

490
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: Right?

491
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 2: And so it's great to say homes Well, you know

492
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 2: people need a homeschool. Most parents need two incomes in

493
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 2: order to survive. So that's just not a thing. So

494
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 2: one of the things I argue, and I know some

495
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 2: of the things I proposed in the book are are

496
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: quite radical, but we need to look at the public

497
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: school buildings and ask ourselves why are they so underutilized?

498
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 2: How can we use them to do more? So we

499
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 2: know that there are educational gaps between lower and middle

500
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 2: income children and lower rich and rich children. What can

501
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 2: we do with the public school system to try to

502
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 2: close those gaps. One of the things that we do

503
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 2: now is we still treat public school the public school

504
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 2: calendar is if we're in a great economy, So for

505
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 2: three some three months of the.

506
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: Summer, got to deal with the crops. Everybody, right, that's right.

507
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: So you have children just there in the phrases use

508
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 2: as a summer slide. If you're rich or lower rich,

509
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,479
Speaker 2: you can put your kids in these camps and robotic camps,

510
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 2: and you can have them go to these summer high

511
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: school camps on college campuses. Well, that's lovely, that's not

512
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 2: the reality for lower and middle income families. And so

513
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 2: you're what I do, both in the book and also

514
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 2: when I'm giving different talks, is we have to focus

515
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: on K twelve because it's too late once children are

516
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 2: about to turn eight, age eighteen.

517
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: No, And the whole thing is, you know, nobody's happy

518
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: with the public school system, and everybody would be appalled

519
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: if it went.

520
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 2: Away, exactly.

521
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: And and you know it's like, look, I empathize with

522
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: these parents that go back and forth. Get I get

523
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: school choice I had. You know, my parents didn't. The

524
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: only choice they had was to find another neighborhood to

525
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: live in with affordable housing, and they did that. That

526
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: was that's all they could do, and that's what they did.

527
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: I had a little bit more the ability to truly

528
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: choose what was going to be best for my kids.

529
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: But ultimately, we are not going to have a good

530
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: labor force if we don't have a good public education system.

531
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: And well, look, politically, the impediments have been a weird

532
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: combination of people who don't want you know, I joke

533
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: in the state of Virginia, it's the people that own

534
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 1: an amusement park called King's Dominion that was making it

535
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: impossible for school districts to even start two weeks earlier.

536
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,719
Speaker 1: You know, it would be like these weird you know,

537
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: And then there was some teachers' unions are like no, no, no, no,

538
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: we want we want our time off because a lot

539
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: of teachers, because they're underpaid, spend their summers looking for

540
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,719
Speaker 1: extra in and are afraid of that going away, right, So,

541
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: which then tells you we really aren't investing very well

542
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: in our school teachers if they feel like they need

543
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: a second job in the summer. So it's a it's

544
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: a it's been a weird challenge to sort of break

545
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: this norm of summer break.

546
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, but again one of the they're very COVID was awful.

547
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: It was dreadful and and I've always had to purpose

548
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: this with there's nothing good about COVID, but some good

549
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: things did come out of COVID. And one of the

550
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,959
Speaker 2: things we saw during COVID is what happens when you

551
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 2: have an extended educational slide. So we have children now

552
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 2: who still have not caught up and who are still

553
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 2: behind because of the COVID slide. So you're absolutely right,

554
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 2: everyone has their own agenda. Actually, before I joined the

555
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 2: UT faculty I worked at. I was at the law

556
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: school at William and Mary and so I know I

557
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: know about you know, those gated communities there. Yeah, and

558
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 2: it was just striking. It's like, oh, so if you

559
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 2: all don't want to lose cheap high school labor, that's

560
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 2: the reason you want to. Oh, okay, that makes sense. Yeah,

561
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 2: but for the school teachers, one of the things that

562
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 2: we can do if we're using our K twelve buildings

563
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 2: more effectively, we can actually allow the school teachers that

564
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 2: want to they don't have to to pick up extra

565
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 2: money in their area of expertise.

566
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: You call this the summer trimester essentially.

567
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 2: Concept exactly. Yeah, just the building is there, So why

568
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 2: not use the building in ways that can put a

569
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 2: little more money in the pockets of school teachers and

570
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 2: also make sure that lower and middle income children get

571
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: the same educational and vocational opportunities that rich kids do.

572
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: Now, let's talk about labor labor unions, because what's interesting

573
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: is we're in a moment right now where you know, look,

574
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: I think you and I are of the generation where

575
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: labor unions were a punching back, you know, and politically,

576
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: you know, it's like you know, it's almost like that

577
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 1: every labor union was viewed through the prism of Jimmy Hoffa, right,

578
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: and it's just like they're all, you know, and it

579
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: really the damage, the perception damage Jimmy off did to

580
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: the entire concept of collective bargaining and unions is is

581
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: I think one of those one of those moments that

582
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 1: probably we as sort of historical journalists need to unpack

583
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: and realize, look at the damage this did. But there's

584
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: now sort of an open mind on this. Now there's

585
00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: less ideological divide about labor unions. There's still some skepticism

586
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: in corporate right now, the divide really seems to be

587
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: corporate America versus everybody else. Right, you have a Donald

588
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: Trump that in theory sees, you know, wants to be

589
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: on the side at least of the trade unions. They're there,

590
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: and I think with AI, the fear of AI job displacement,

591
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: why collar were workers who you know, I've been you know,

592
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: I've been a little skeptical of news of news rem

593
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: unions myself, sort of like you know, I've always viewed

594
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: unions as to protect the physical labor folks more than

595
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 1: necessarily the but that's my own bias, and I will

596
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: I'm you know, at the same time, the only way

597
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: you're going to get equal treatment is through collective bargainy, right,

598
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: we're about to I think we're going to see this

599
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 1: in college sports. By the way, that's a separate topic,

600
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 1: but you seem to peg one of the one of

601
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: the reasons why we had a strong middle class in

602
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 1: the fifties and sixties was because we openly accepted labor unions.

603
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 1: So how do you bring that back?

604
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 2: Well, one of the divides that I think we're also

605
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 2: seeing is there's a generational divide. So I remember when

606
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 2: I first started teaching courses on the middle class. Again,

607
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 2: this is one of the sessions where we were talking

608
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 2: about labor and I had a student in the class

609
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: to raise their hand and say, so, you know, we've

610
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 2: been talking about this whole thing with you know, rights

611
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 2: and workers' power, and you've been talking about unions. Exactly

612
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 2: what is a union? And it was jarring to me

613
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 2: until it occurred to me that we had so demonized

614
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: unions that a lot of students fifteen years ago really

615
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 2: weren't familiar with the benefits that unions actually could provide.

616
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 2: Students now they know exactly what unions do. Part of

617
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 2: it is because I think they've looked at their local

618
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 2: baristas who have gone out on strike. They've looked at

619
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 2: in the educational context, some of the graduate assistants that

620
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 2: have gone out on strike. I will not talk at

621
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 2: all about sports because I'm very involved in that space

622
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 2: at the University of Texas. I'm not going to talk

623
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: about that. But yeah, I think that we have to

624
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 2: acknowledge that nothing good has happened to lower and middle

625
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 2: income workers since we gutted union. I would say Jimmy

626
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 2: Hoffa is a very bad visual. I will also say

627
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 2: that the destruction of pat Co by Ronald Reagan was

628
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 2: another one of those moments exactly where we forget that

629
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 2: that then told everybody else you can go out and

630
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 2: destroy union two.

631
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a you know, I look at the

632
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: model Germany has, and it's always been a fascinating model

633
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: where workers are actually on the board of directors like

634
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: they're so the union culture is so embedded with the

635
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 1: corporate culture that it actually isn't as it doesn't strike

636
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:45,280
Speaker 1: me as antagonistic. Is there a model there worth worth copying?

637
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 2: We have to look at the union or employees workers

638
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 2: as partners. And so again, when we're deciding who gets what,

639
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 2: if you view the union as a partner rather than

640
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 2: as the inner, I think we have a very different

641
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 2: framework going forward. The businesses often views the government as

642
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 2: a partner. Well, if you view the government, if you

643
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 2: have these public private partnerships with the government, why are

644
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 2: you so hostile to the people that actually make it

645
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: possible for your company to be productive. So, whether it's

646
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,280
Speaker 2: there on the boards or you are genuinely working toward

647
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 2: these so we're all rowing in the same direction. We

648
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 2: don't have that now, but I think we may get

649
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 2: that if no other reason, young people are going to

650
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 2: demand it.

651
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: Having good life insurance is incredibly important. I know from

652
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: personal experience. I was sixteen when my father passed away.

653
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: We didn't have any money. He didn't leave us in

654
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: the best shape. My mother, single mother, now widow. Myself

655
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: sixteen trying to figure out how am I going to

656
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: pay for college and lo and behold, my dad had

657
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 1: one life insurance policy that we found wasn't a lot,

658
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 1: but it was important at the time, and it's why

659
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 1: I was able to go to college. Little did he

660
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: know how important that would be in that moment. Well,

661
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 1: guess what. That's why I am here to tell you

662
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 1: about Etho's life. They can provide you with peace of

663
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: mind knowing your family is protected even if the worst

664
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 1: comes to pass. Ethos is an online platform that makes

665
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 1: getting life insurance fast and easy, all designed to protect

666
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: your family's future in minutes, not months. There's no complicated process,

667
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: and it's one hundred percent online. There's no medical exam

668
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: require you just answer a few health questions online. You

669
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 1: can get a quote in as little as ten minutes,

670
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 1: and you can get same day coverage without ever leaving

671
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: your home. You can get up to three million dollars

672
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: in coverage, and some policies start as low as two

673
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: dollars a day that would be billed monthly. As of

674
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 1: March twenty twenty five, Business Insider named Ethos the number

675
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: one no medical exam instant life insurance provider. So protect

676
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: your family with life insurance from Ethos. Get your free

677
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: quoted ethos dot com slash chuck. So again, that's Ethos

678
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: dot com slash chuck. Application times may vary and the

679
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 1: rates themselves may vary as well, but trust me, life

680
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: insurance is something you should really think about, especially if

681
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: you've got a growing family, how do you eliminate You know,

682
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 1: a lot of this take the union issue is that

683
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: are classified. Sometimes people get blinded by race and ethnicity,

684
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: when really our divides have always been class, and race

685
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: and ethnicity have been sort of used as wedges to

686
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: to to advance a class argument one way or the other.

687
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: You know, well, maybe it's impossible, and maybe I'm asking

688
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 1: you a political question and you're not offering a political question.

689
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: But that seems to be something that we've got to

690
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: get over as a culture before we all embrace a

691
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: union mindset.

692
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 2: I think we also have to admit it. I mean,

693
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,400
Speaker 2: you admit it. I know that it is true. A

694
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 2: lot of people will not admit even now, a lot

695
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 2: of the conversations that we are having are really about

696
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 2: race and ethnicity. They are not about anything else. I

697
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 2: don't care whether we's in the immigration space or guy.

698
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: Look at Todd, Donald Trump and the trade unions. He's

699
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 1: always worried about the trade unions. He's never worried about

700
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 1: anybody at SEIU exactly.

701
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 2: And Sciu just.

702
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: Looks that union looks different than the Carpenters Union does.

703
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: Although I would argue the Carpenter's Union looks a lot

704
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: more like SCIU than he thinks, but you get my drift.

705
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, even the Teamsters, I mean, that was the

706
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 2: one union that was more inclined to support the Republican

707
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 2: Party than the Democratic Party, and their membership looks very

708
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 2: different than the service workers unions. And so one of

709
00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 2: the things we're going to we're going to have to

710
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 2: stop doing is saying that, well, the problems of the

711
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 2: middle class are the workers are lazy? Okay, so which

712
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 2: workers are we talking about? Are we talking about all

713
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 2: workers or do you have a certain profile of a

714
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 2: worker in mind? What made me actually think that I

715
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 2: was sort of onto something here because I've been writing

716
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 2: this book for an eternity. But it was the twenties,

717
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 2: it was before the twenty sixteen election. We heard all

718
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 2: of this, oh the angry middle class, and Hillary Clinton

719
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 2: and Donald Trump were talking about how much they loved

720
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 2: the middle class and the angst of the middle class.

721
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 2: And then I kept asking, so, exactly which middle class

722
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 2: are we talking about here? Because it is absolutely true,

723
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 2: absolutely true, that there is economic inequality and that there

724
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:55,280
Speaker 2: is anxiety. There's economic anxiety, but that has been true

725
00:42:55,320 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 2: for black and Latunal workers forever. The shift that we're

726
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 2: seeing now is the same way that the black and

727
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 2: Latino middle class has been treated, is the way the

728
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 2: entire middle class is being treated. And if we can

729
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,360
Speaker 2: get lower and middle income workers to say, this is

730
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 2: not tribalism, this is not people that don't look like us,

731
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 2: we are all being treated the same way. None of

732
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 2: us can afford to send our kids to college, none

733
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 2: of us can find a forty hour full time job

734
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 2: where we are called an employee, and none of us

735
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 2: can find an affordable housing either.

736
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: Look what made I think this book, also why I

737
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: think it should be should be read by all these

738
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 1: presidential candidates is that, you know, a lot of times

739
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 1: presidential candidates will focus on poverty, stafe safety net programs

740
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: primarily focused on helping the poor, and these you know,

741
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,359
Speaker 1: whether it's a fight about Medicaid aid right, whether it's

742
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: I and you know the synic and me has often said, look,

743
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 1: all voters are self centered. Okay, let's let's not pretend

744
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: that they aren't. And that's okay. It's your job as

745
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: the politician to figure out a message that both appeals

746
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: to them and at the same you know, in a

747
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 1: self centered way, but at the same time can help

748
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: help a greater good. Where do you prioritize poverty programs

749
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 1: in your vision here for a renewed middle class? Or

750
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 1: and you sort of see in an odd way that

751
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: it kind of if you revive a intentionally revive a

752
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: middle class, right, because essentially we're arguing that we intentionally

753
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: dismantled it, so you've got to intentionally bring it back

754
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: that you're actually creating an anti poverty program without having

755
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: to target the poor.

756
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 2: And again, I'll answer this with someone with the story

757
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,040
Speaker 2: with the same course that I taught. I was saying

758
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 2: something in class and a student said something about either

759
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 2: Medicaid or AFDC, and I said, oh, no, no, no, no,

760
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 2: we don't care about poor people in here. And then

761
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 2: I had to stop myself and say, no, no, no, I

762
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 2: mean I do care about poor people, that's not the

763
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 2: focus of this class. And then I realized that my

764
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 2: emphasis in teaching and also in the book is the

765
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 2: goal in this country has always been to take people

766
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 2: from being poor to being middle income upward. Mobility is

767
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 2: wired into the DNA of people in this country. So

768
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 2: though I am focusing mostly on the middle class. I

769
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 2: need us to be sure that we're doing things to

770
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:46,399
Speaker 2: help poor people to become somewhat financially stable, because without that,

771
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 2: they can't become middle class. And looping back to a

772
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 2: comment that you made earlier, everybody wants to be middle class.

773
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 2: It's the norm. It's viewed as you know, sort of

774
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 2: apple pie and and America and the national anthem. Given that,

775
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 2: I think we need to say, let's focus on the

776
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 2: middle class, because people who are poor are aspiring to

777
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 2: be middle class.

778
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 1: Who's the uh, who do you envision are the biggest optic?

779
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:25,479
Speaker 1: Who are what is the biggest obstacle to your middle

780
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,359
Speaker 1: class new deal? In your mind? When you think about

781
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: the opposition, who is it?

782
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 2: Billionaires? Billionaires that control Amazon, it is in their best

783
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,720
Speaker 2: interest to keep Amazon, to keep the people that drive

784
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 2: Amazon trucks employed by DSPs and not employed by Amazon.

785
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 2: DSP would say that delivery service providers right, It is

786
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 2: in the best interest of billionaires to be able to

787
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 2: eliminate jobs and to automate jobs, and to have favorable

788
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 2: tax credits for being innovative, but not be forced to

789
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: do anything for the human beings that you have now

790
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,720
Speaker 2: caused to lose their jobs. So again, if the lower

791
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 2: income people that want to become middle class, and if

792
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 2: the middle class folks who would like to remain middle

793
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:25,760
Speaker 2: class for the rest of their lives looked up economically

794
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 2: and said those are the problems, rather than looking around

795
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 2: at each other and saying, well, because that person is

796
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 2: of a different race, so that person is a different ethnicity,

797
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 2: they're are the problem. I think we could actually work

798
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 2: on some solutions here.

799
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 1: You know, history doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes.

800
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 1: And you know, it feels like we are in an

801
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: almost identical place that we were about one hundred years ago,

802
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: where you had this incredible new technology industrial revolution. Every

803
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:05,840
Speaker 1: day was bringing more incredible developments to market, whether it's

804
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 1: the car right, whether it was electricity, personalized, you know,

805
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: getting it to any place. You know, more and more

806
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: that we got it, and we had to come up

807
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 1: with a whole bunch of laws because left, you know,

808
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 1: whether it was the oil barons, the railroad barons, the

809
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 1: auto barons, left of their own device. They were you know,

810
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 1: not everybody was going to be like mister Hershey, who

811
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 1: thought I'm going to build a city with an amusement

812
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: park and have this wonderful community. There were a few

813
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: companies people like that, but not many Hershey. I find

814
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: that to be just just as a quick sort of

815
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:51,439
Speaker 1: a sidetrack here. Where do you put Hershey in sort

816
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 1: of that in that world of you know, should corporations

817
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: behave the way he did in building a community and

818
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 1: wanting to have that or was that just sort of

819
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 1: an outlier type of thing that wouldn't work for other industries.

820
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 2: I think it would work for all industries if again,

821
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 2: we work on the from the premise that we would

822
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:21,399
Speaker 2: like to have happy, healthy workers. So you don't need

823
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 2: to build a community, but you could commit, for example,

824
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 2: that whatever the top workers earn won't be a larger

825
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 2: than a fill in the blanks multiple of what the

826
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 2: forest workers earn.

827
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 1: Say, that's Costco right now. About the biggest company that

828
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: does this is Costco right The CEO always emphasizes that ratio.

829
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 2: I believe yeah, and I am a Costco member. I

830
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,320
Speaker 2: will always be a Costco member. When I go into Costco,

831
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 2: these are the happiest employees you will ever see. I

832
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,879
Speaker 2: took my children. Now we're twenty two and twenty five,

833
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 2: but we and their boys so they would eat everything

834
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 2: that wasn't nailed down. We'd go into Costco and get

835
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 2: those samples. They have gone back now as adults and

836
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 2: have seen some of the same employees that used to

837
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 2: allow them to raid the samples when they were children.

838
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 2: So it can work. It definitely can work.

839
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: Well, what kind of you know if you had if

840
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 1: you had an hour to brief President Trump on this,

841
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 1: what do you think would be your best way to

842
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: get him interested in US?

843
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 2: I would say that your constituents, the people that support you,

844
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 2: are struggling. They are not struggling because of race issues

845
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 2: and class issues. They are struggling because they don't know

846
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 2: how they're going to pay their bills at the end

847
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 2: of this month. So if you want these people to

848
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 2: continue to support you, you're going to have to figure

849
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:56,720
Speaker 2: out a way not to just say they're doing okay,

850
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:01,760
Speaker 2: but to actually help them to do okay. We can't

851
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 2: He will not be able to continue to tell people

852
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 2: that the affordability issue is a hoax, because at the

853
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:10,800
Speaker 2: end of every month, when people don't have enough to

854
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 2: pay their bills for that month, they know it's not

855
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:14,799
Speaker 2: a hoax because they're living it.

856
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:18,800
Speaker 1: Do you view the election of Donald Trump as the

857
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 1: middle class primal screen.

858
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:26,240
Speaker 2: I viewed the twenty sixteen election as the middle class

859
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 2: primal screen, but it was the fight middle class primal

860
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 2: screen because it was the first time I think that

861
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 2: white Americans realized, ooh, something is wrong here, and they

862
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 2: didn't exactly know how to react, but they knew it

863
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 2: in their heart, their soul, and their pockets that something

864
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 2: is happening to us now that isn't supposed to be

865
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:50,240
Speaker 2: happening to us.

866
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:55,719
Speaker 1: And the risk of not addressing this erosion of the

867
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 1: middle class, because that's I mean, look, you give me,

868
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,320
Speaker 1: you know, I look at you know, how did Venezuela

869
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 1: get Chavez and Maduro? You had a wealthy elite and

870
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 1: a massive number of poor people, no middle class. How

871
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 1: did Arawan turn a democracy into an autocracy? No middle class?

872
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 1: So I know the political risk here of eroding a

873
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 1: middle class. It will drive people into one direction or

874
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,839
Speaker 1: the other, but it will drive them into you know,

875
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 1: is this We've got ten years, We've got twenty years?

876
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 1: Is this fear of a lost generation? What is your

877
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 1: timetable here of like, look, regardless of whether they your

878
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 1: book is the blueprint, We've got to do something about

879
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 1: saving the middle class and expanding it rather than what

880
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: we've seen.

881
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 2: I think it's less than definitely less than twenty years.

882
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 2: I would say it's less than ten years. One of

883
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 2: the reasons I would say it's less than ten years

884
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 2: is because even the younger boomers are going to be

885
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:00,800
Speaker 2: retiring soon or thinking about retiring, and they're going to

886
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:05,280
Speaker 2: freak out in panic because they can't retire. Their children

887
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,799
Speaker 2: are going to increasingly have to subsidize their housing and

888
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 2: their living expenses. And so I totally agree with you.

889
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 2: We need to look a little bit to the history, though,

890
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 2: I want to focus going forward to say how do

891
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 2: these economies end? They don't end well. So the fact

892
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 2: that there was a Great Gatsby party at Mara a

893
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 2: Lago over Christmas, I thought, oh, that is a symbol

894
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 2: that you perhaps really don't want to have.

895
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 1: Oh they've done some things. You're just sitting there going, wow,

896
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: that was a let the meat cake moment they have.

897
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 1: You know, there's this exclusive club that they've created in

898
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 1: DC where the entry fee is a half a million

899
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 1: dollars and you're like, what are we doing?

900
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you probably want to hide that from the

901
00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 2: eighty percent of the people in this country that are terrified.

902
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 1: That they're going to shocking that they didn't hide it. Yeah,

903
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 1: that's I think, why aren't you embarrassed by this?

904
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:04,919
Speaker 2: Maybe they're all in an echo chamber and they really

905
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 2: don't talk to anybody that earns like, you know, ninety

906
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:09,919
Speaker 2: or even one hundred thousand dollars a year.

907
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 1: You know, this is why I really like this book.

908
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 1: And I'm going to close on this, which is it

909
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 1: is Look, you know, I've always tried to explain, you know,

910
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 1: why do why do middle class people not want to rate,

911
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:23,760
Speaker 1: not always want to raise taxes on high class people

912
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 1: because they think they're going to be wealthy someday. Right,

913
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 1: That's the beauty of Americas. We all think, well, that

914
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: could be me, and it's like the ninety percent chance

915
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,319
Speaker 1: it ain't going to be you. But you know what,

916
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 1: if we don't have that mindset that you know, that

917
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 1: is sort of that is what has always sort of

918
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 1: created the engine of growth in this in this country. So,

919
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: you know, how do you embrace the aspiration? You know,

920
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 1: making middle class aspirational?

921
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:51,919
Speaker 2: Is that well, And one of the things that really

922
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 2: scares me, and again it is because I have a

923
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 2: twenty two, twenty five year old, and I also teach

924
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 2: students sort of ranging from twenty two to thirty. Is

925
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 2: there's sort of this economic nihilism which terrifies me, where

926
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 2: they don't think things are going to get better, where

927
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 2: they are angry at older people. We've got to fix

928
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 2: that if we want this country to remain normal and

929
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 2: stable economically and politically. To the point that you've just made,

930
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 2: we have got to make young people believe that if

931
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 2: they work hard, they try hard, things will be good

932
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 2: for them or things will get better.

933
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: It's a great Bill Clinton isn't right, work hard, play by.

934
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 2: The rules exactly exactly.

935
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: That was all. And I think that is a universalism.

936
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:42,760
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. It's like there's for a variety

937
00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: of reasons, there's a lot of sort of of the

938
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:48,319
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton era that gets ignored or it's been sort

939
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: of washed away and all this stuff. But one thing

940
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:55,759
Speaker 1: he understood was the middle class. It's a way that

941
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,479
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know, and in some ways because

942
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 1: he was of it right, and I wonder how important

943
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 1: you know that experience truly is with our elected officials.

944
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 2: Well, for him it was key because not only could

945
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:15,799
Speaker 2: he talk about the middle class. He could talk to

946
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 2: the middle class because there was a point in his

947
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 2: life when he was poor, right, And so when you

948
00:56:20,840 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 2: have gone, when you understand the importance of upward mobility,

949
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 2: that you were a poor kid in arc and Hope,

950
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:32,879
Speaker 2: Arkansas who ultimately occupied sixteen hundred Pennsylvania abvenue, you can

951
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 2: speak about the struggles of the poor and what it

952
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 2: takes to get from there to where he was because

953
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 2: he literally had to do it.

954
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:44,319
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, I remember during his early campaign that the

955
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:46,720
Speaker 1: number one place he would campaign, no matter the community

956
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 1: he was in, was always the community college.

957
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 2: Oh exactly.

958
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 1: He knew exactly exactly the type of people that he

959
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:57,880
Speaker 1: should be talking to. Anyway, Michelle, this was great. Congrats

960
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 1: in the book. Like I said, I hope you know,

961
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 1: whether it's Gavin Newsom, jd Vance, Ram, Emanuel Pete Boodage,

962
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 1: Glenn Younkin, anybody else. This is they ought to consume

963
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 1: this book as they think about what they want to

964
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:15,000
Speaker 1: say to the American people in twenty twenty eight.

965
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 2: And I hope they do too.

966
00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 1: All right, thanks so much, thanks for having me. Huh.