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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. I have these beautiful little baby birds

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Speaker 1: and I think I told did I tell you about them?

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Speaker 1: These little birds that I have a gardening hat on

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Speaker 1: my porch and a house. Wren decided to go ahead

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Speaker 1: and make a little home there for her four little babies.

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Speaker 1: I have never been that close because they're on the

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Speaker 1: other side of the glass from us, so the kids

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Speaker 1: can see it and everything. It's super cute. And my

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Speaker 1: mom is really into birding. She's not the burder like

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Speaker 1: she goes on and you should go out on a

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Speaker 1: track and note things and stuff. But we you know,

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Speaker 1: my old house has a beautiful backyard and they love

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Speaker 1: sitting back there, and my folks like to watch the

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Speaker 1: birds and everything. So what that made me think was,

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Speaker 1: was there anything that you picked up from either of

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Speaker 1: your parents, just as like a not a hobby maybe,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know, just something that just carries over

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Speaker 1: into your adulthood and maybe you've kind of passed on.

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Speaker 2: To your kids, you know. I would say that the

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Speaker 2: one thing that comes to mind is when I was

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Speaker 2: really young, like my dad was stationed at Hill Air

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Speaker 2: Force Base and he had an old rusty weight set

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Speaker 2: that was at this like duplex house that was on base,

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Speaker 2: and I remember him working out there and then moving

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Speaker 2: that set to the basement when we were in Clinton,

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Speaker 2: Maryland and my dad was stationed downtown d C. And

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Speaker 2: you know, just seeing him work out was something that

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Speaker 2: I just glonbed onto. And so starting at like age twelve,

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Speaker 2: I started lifting weights, you know, and that's just kind

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Speaker 2: of has stuck with me. That's become just you know,

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Speaker 2: part of my lifestyle.

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Speaker 1: Now, your dad's not still working out, I assume, no.

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Speaker 2: You know, he's he's had his health issues. You know,

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Speaker 2: he's in his later seventies now and he had a

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Speaker 2: stroke a few years ago that's caused him some physical

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Speaker 2: disabilities and he's trying to try to get back from

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Speaker 2: you know that aspect. But he was, you know, up

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Speaker 2: until his later years, he was always involved with some

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Speaker 2: sort of weight training or resistance training. And now he's

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Speaker 2: you know, having to resort to a different type of

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Speaker 2: workout that helps with his mobility and stuff.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so the weightlifting senior dad getting into shape was

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Speaker 1: a big inspiration. And you have kids, You've got what

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Speaker 1: four kids?

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Speaker 2: Is that right? Yeah? I have four kids. Are they

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Speaker 2: working out?

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Speaker 1: I think they're in sports too? Well, maybe they were.

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Speaker 2: So. My two older kids were more involved in the

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Speaker 2: athletics aspect, you know, the sports. And my oldest, my daughter,

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Speaker 2: who you know, grew up sort of like a tomboy

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Speaker 2: type of personality, she really glommed onto the working out.

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Speaker 2: My two younger kids have both slowly embraced working out.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's we were concerned that they weren't getting

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Speaker 2: involved in sports. They weren't very active. But my son

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Speaker 2: that's in college, he's routinely working out and he's you know,

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Speaker 2: got his own self motivation to keep going, you know.

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Speaker 2: And my daughter is off and on. She's heavy involved with,

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Speaker 2: you know, the musical side, but she's starting to get

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Speaker 2: back into some sort of working out.

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Speaker 1: Okay, the kids are kind of picking up a little

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Speaker 1: bit of the bird stuff. Hopefully I give them good

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Speaker 1: habits and not bad habits. We'll see them.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, that was just such a I guess

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Speaker 2: you'd just say, it's almost like a privilege that the

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Speaker 2: bird built a nest right there to where you can watch,

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Speaker 2: you know, the young ones feed and sleep and eat

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Speaker 2: and all of that. You know, I've had I've had

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Speaker 2: nests over time that i'd be able to peek in

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Speaker 2: on the hatchlings and stuff, but I haven't had one

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Speaker 2: built on the other side of a window.

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Speaker 1: Well, I cleaned it out after I was assured they

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Speaker 1: all left, because I couldn't see all of them. And

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Speaker 1: I just thought, oh my gosh, what if I look

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Speaker 1: at this, I'm sure they're gone, And what if I

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Speaker 1: look at this nest and somebody didn't make it. But

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Speaker 1: it was clean as a whistle. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: had read that there are not very many species of

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Speaker 1: birds so they're not many birds who returned to a nest,

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Speaker 1: and so I cleaned it out. I hosed out the hat.

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Speaker 1: I've now lost the hat. It's never gonna I've I've

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Speaker 1: abandoned this hat, and any bird that wants to continue

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Speaker 1: to nest there will do it.

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Speaker 2: So this hat is just a permanent fixture out there

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Speaker 2: in your garden area.

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Speaker 1: It is. It's right by the window and now, and

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Speaker 1: the dogs ignore them. So we'll see, we'll see how

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Speaker 1: it goes. But speaking of my childhood, we're going to

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Speaker 1: the seventies for this case.

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Speaker 2: Well, so you were alive in the seventies as.

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Speaker 1: I was watched, buddy, I was. I was alive. I

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Speaker 1: was born in seventy four, and this is in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy eight, so I was a young four year old

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Speaker 1: in this when this case happens. Well, how old were

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Speaker 1: you you were?

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Speaker 2: It's seventy eight. I would have been ten.

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Speaker 1: You seem so much more mature than me. I think

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Speaker 1: sometimes that's why I'm.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if that's the case, but.

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Speaker 1: I have more wrinkles than you do. So I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to say you look all older than me, because

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Speaker 1: you really don't.

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Speaker 2: Oh, come on.

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Speaker 1: But we're going to go to the seventies and we're

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Speaker 1: going to Arizona and Scottsdale, and this is a very

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Speaker 1: big case. So it's a two parter for us. You know,

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Speaker 1: with two parters, some people don't like them because they

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Speaker 1: want to hear everything all at once and don't want

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Speaker 1: to wait a week. But some of these cases, I mean,

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Speaker 1: we would go on for four hours for one episode.

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Speaker 1: I feel like, if you know, if we didn't do

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Speaker 1: them as two parters, and we cut a lot already

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Speaker 1: out of our stuff. So that's why we've got this

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Speaker 1: epic two parter in a really interesting case. And I

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Speaker 1: think this is right up your hour ally, so you're

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Speaker 1: gonna like it.

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Speaker 2: All right, Well, I'm looking forward to it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let's set the scene nineteen seventies. We have

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Speaker 1: a lot of photos. You noticed when I emailed you

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Speaker 1: there's actually two documents worth of photos. I thought you'd

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Speaker 1: be happy about that. I've got scene photos and then

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Speaker 1: I've got some autopsy photos and when we get to those,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about that. You know, I have seen them

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Speaker 1: floating all over the internet, some of these different photos,

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Speaker 1: and I am just very aware of putting photos that

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Speaker 1: I think are way too graphic on our posts, so

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Speaker 1: I'll be a little bit more conservative. But for people

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Speaker 1: who are going to be interested in this case, you

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Speaker 1: could certainly hop online and Google and see these, but

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Speaker 1: you're gonna like them, I think, okay. Late June nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy eight in Scottsdale, Arizona. Love Scottsdale. One of my

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Speaker 1: good friends is from there, and I used to go

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Speaker 1: over there for passover to be with her, and it's

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Speaker 1: so beautiful. I've never been into deserts. I always like

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Speaker 1: the ocean. I'm just I don't know, just the vastness

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Speaker 1: of a desert. It might scare me, even though there's

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Speaker 1: a vastness of the ocean. You like deserts or I

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Speaker 1: know you're a mountain guy, but do you enjoy deserts?

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Speaker 2: No, I'm not into the desert, you know. I don't

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Speaker 2: find it very visually appealing. And the heat, you know,

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Speaker 2: kills me.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 2: No, I've been to Scottsdale, you know. I've been to

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Speaker 2: several conferences early on in my career, or where we

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Speaker 2: stayed at I don't remember the names of the resorts,

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Speaker 2: but you know they were resort hotels and those very nice,

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Speaker 2: you know, and the scenery with I think it's called

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Speaker 2: the camel Mountain or Camelback, something that's somewhat humped, you know,

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Speaker 2: this small little hill relative to what I have here

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Speaker 2: in Colorado. But you know, it was somewhat neat to

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Speaker 2: be there. But there's just no way I could deal

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Speaker 2: with the heat.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and I'm talking about Texas. I'm from Texas.

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Speaker 1: The Heaton, Arizona was rough. Okay, well so in seventy eight,

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Speaker 1: as I think it is now. Scott Sale is a

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Speaker 1: wealthy suburb of Phoenix, and you know, it's a really

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Speaker 1: it's like the sort of oasis of luxury in the

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Speaker 1: Sonoran Desert. A lots of tourists, lots of snowbirds. It's

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Speaker 1: also very hot, and we'll see if that comes into

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Speaker 1: play with this case. So on June twenty ninth, the

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Speaker 1: temperatures have climbed all the way up to one hundred

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Speaker 1: degrees by noon, which that happens here. And I know

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Speaker 1: people say it's a dry, but it's man, it's hot, hot, Hot.

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Speaker 1: Entertainment Weekly said. Well healed residents took refuge in their

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Speaker 1: heavily air conditioned villas, leaving the wide streets as empty

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Speaker 1: as any Southwest ghost town. There you go. That's a description.

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Speaker 1: So it's hot, everybody's inside. Okay, so I'm going to

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Speaker 1: introduce our first person here. Her name is Victoria Barry.

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Speaker 1: She's twenty eight and she is an actress. She's got

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Speaker 1: a couple of you know, credits under her belt. She

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Speaker 1: was a go go dancer and start Sky and Hutch

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Speaker 1: never saw that show, did you ever see it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: It's a cop show, right.

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Speaker 2: You know. I remember watching Starski and I think you're right.

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Speaker 2: I think they were cops. You know, the actors stand

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Speaker 2: out in my head. I don't remember much about that show. Now,

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Speaker 2: what was the other one? Oh, the Dukes of Hazzard

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Speaker 2: is the one that comes to mind him.

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Speaker 1: Hmmm, yeah, which doesn't age well, the Dukes of Hazzard.

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Speaker 1: But when I was a kid, I played. We played

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Speaker 1: in my neighbor I played Luke Duke. I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to play Daisy Duke. I played Luke Duke and uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love that. But this is the only thing you

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Speaker 1: need to know is that Victoria had kind of a

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Speaker 1: bit rule. Okay, so she was a go go dancer,

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Speaker 1: you know. So she's a small time actress. While she's

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Speaker 1: waiting for her big break, she is making a living

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Speaker 1: by acting on the dinner theater circuit to pay the bills.

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Speaker 1: I've never been to a dinner theater I don't think before.

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Speaker 1: But there's a show running called Beginner's Luck in Scottsdale

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Speaker 1: and it's a part of a bigger tour. So she's

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Speaker 1: there and the theater company has put you know, everybody

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Speaker 1: up in different places. Mostly it's sort of these short

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Speaker 1: term apartments because they're going to be there obviously quite

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Speaker 1: a while. She's supposed to spend time with a co

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Speaker 1: actor of her she's much more famous. She gets to

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Speaker 1: the Winfield apartments in Scottsdale on this day, June twenty ninth,

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Speaker 1: and they're supposed to do a voiceover record track that

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Speaker 1: it's going to be used in the show. So you know,

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Speaker 1: we've got an actor. And I will just be straightforward.

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Speaker 1: It is not Victoria who is the victim here, It

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Speaker 1: is the actor. So now think nineteen seventies actor ends

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Speaker 1: up dead.

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Speaker 2: I know which cases is.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's smarty.

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Speaker 2: You want me to say who the actor is?

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Speaker 1: I do because I'm getting ready to say it.

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Speaker 2: If you don't, oh, this is Bob Crean?

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Speaker 1: You got it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Did you read much about this case?

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Speaker 2: I know of the case, you know, general circumstances. You know.

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Speaker 2: I remember, you know, another show that probably hasn't aged

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Speaker 2: very well, Hogan's Heroes, and he was, you know, kind

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Speaker 2: of the lead actor in that, and so that's how

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Speaker 2: I knew of him. And then I just remember, you know,

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Speaker 2: when I got into my career, at one point I

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Speaker 2: found out that he had been a victim, and I

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Speaker 2: was like, what happened? You know? And I've actually talked

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Speaker 2: to some production companies and said, you know, I'd love

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Speaker 2: to dig into some of these higher profile cold cases. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, such as Marilyn Monroe, Natalie Wood, Bob Crane.

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Speaker 2: You know that. That's because I want to see the

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Speaker 2: official information that law enforcement has and see if I

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Speaker 2: agree with their conclusions or if there's something more that

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Speaker 2: can be done in each of these cases. And so

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Speaker 2: far nothing has bit but Bob Crane is one of

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Speaker 2: those cases. Yeah, I'd love to know more about it.

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Speaker 1: Got it. You're about to learn a lot more about

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Speaker 1: it in two different parts. That's why when I saw

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Speaker 1: my prep document from Mare and I said, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is going to be two parts. This is a

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Speaker 1: big deal, and not because he was a star. So

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Speaker 1: Victoria and Bob are co stars. He's of course much

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Speaker 1: bigger than she is as a star and she arrives

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Speaker 1: to his apartment. So let's just talk about Bob Crane

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Speaker 1: real quick. As you said, he was the star of

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Speaker 1: the hit series Hogan's Heroes, which is set in a

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Speaker 1: German pow camp during World War Two. Yes, probably doesn't age. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming you're right, right, but I've never seen one thing.

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Speaker 1: I know, the very famous headshot of him, you know,

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Speaker 1: wearing the uniform, and he's very handsome and he has

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Speaker 1: this really great smile on his face, but that's it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I didn't even know it was set

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Speaker 1: in Germany until I got ready to look at the case.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, you have sort of this ragtag

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Speaker 2: group of POWs at the Germans that the Nazis have

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Speaker 2: imprisoned at this camp, and so there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: interaction between these POWs and the Nazi characters that are running.

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Speaker 2: You know, I remember this like Colonel Clink, you know.

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Speaker 1: Okay, now I know that name. I got it.

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Speaker 2: And in terms of aging, well, it's been so long

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Speaker 2: since I've seen it. In terms of how it would

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Speaker 2: portray you know, various you know, sensitivities, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I do remember as a kid, I enjoyed the show,

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Speaker 2: and of course Bob Crane his character was always sort

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Speaker 2: of like one step ahead of the Germans that were,

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Speaker 2: in essence trying to keep him down.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and I assume that any comedy set in a

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Speaker 1: Nazi camp is probably going to age poorly, but you know,

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Speaker 1: listeners might prove me wrong.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But this was obviously, this was a huge show, and

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Speaker 1: this was really his main thing. That's what he was

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Speaker 1: known for. Go ahead and open your documents. I had

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Speaker 1: asked you via email, please don't look at them, and

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Speaker 1: then if I unfortunately had put the name of our

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Speaker 1: victim on one of them. So that's why I was

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Speaker 1: glad that you are so busy that you couldn't even

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Speaker 1: open my email. So there's two documents. One is called

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Speaker 1: scene photos and one is called Bob Crane photos. So

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Speaker 1: look at that, just to remind you. He's so handsome.

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Speaker 1: That's how I remember him in every headshot I've ever

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Speaker 1: seen of Hogan's heroes.

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Speaker 2: Yep, I mean that's just like yesterday watching him on

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Speaker 2: the show.

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Speaker 1: So no, for sure, the show went off the air

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Speaker 1: in the early seventies, he just didn't really recover from that.

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Speaker 1: He never had a big hit after that. And now

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Speaker 1: he's doing this sort of odd dinner theater off Broadway

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Speaker 1: type stuff. So it doesn't mean that he's gone downhill necessarily,

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Speaker 1: but his career is not doing particularly well. So he

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Speaker 1: has done this dinner theater and where a lot of

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Speaker 1: people recognize his name, and he turns out to be

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Speaker 1: a big draw, which is why I think Victoria is

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Speaker 1: happy to be a co star in this. So the relationship,

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Speaker 1: just to get it out of the way, between Victoria

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Speaker 1: and Bob is interesting and odd. So she at one

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Speaker 1: point described it as sort of a brother's sister relationship

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Speaker 1: maybe mentor mentee, But she also slept with him a

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Speaker 1: couple of times. Okay, and he's married, unhappily, it sounds like,

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Speaker 1: but for reasons you will hear about in a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But he's married, and so she's the one that shows

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Speaker 1: up at his door. And I know that you can

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Speaker 1: guess on the other side of the door is some

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Speaker 1: really bad things that happened to Bob Crane.

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Speaker 2: Sure, now is Bob Crane and living in Scottsdale and

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Speaker 2: his wife is also in town.

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Speaker 1: He's from La Okay, she is in La. He's in

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Speaker 1: this sort of rundown apartment in Scottsdale, just doing this

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Speaker 1: dinner theater. I'm not sure how long the run is,

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Speaker 1: but long enough for them to put him in an apartment.

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Speaker 1: So I don't think the wife is around necessarily. But

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Speaker 1: you know, their marriage is not a great marriage, Like

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Speaker 1: I said, we'll talk about that in a little bit. Sure,

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Speaker 1: So Victoria knocks on his door on June twenty ninth.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't answer. She says the door is unlocked. So

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Speaker 1: this is part of the victimology stuff. Everybody said he

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Speaker 1: was very security conscious and that this would not have

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Speaker 1: been right. And she also notices that nobody's broken the lock,

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Speaker 1: but the door is open. Now, is this a good

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Speaker 1: time for you to look at the exterior? I have

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Speaker 1: a photo on that next page, page two of the

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Speaker 1: Bob Crane photos. After his photo, it shows you the apartment.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how helpful it is, but there's this

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Speaker 1: security door on the front of the apartment door. It

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Speaker 1: looks like maybe not, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know this apartment, I mean, this is just

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Speaker 2: like some little flat roofed, single story, looks very tiny

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Speaker 2: type of apartment. There are windows on either side that

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Speaker 2: appeer closed, and then the front door to this apartment. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's got that security screen on it, you know, so

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Speaker 2: that's a you know, that's an effective barrier. Nobody's going

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Speaker 2: to be kicking in that security screen. Assuming that you know,

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Speaker 2: Crane is dead inside and the front door is unlocked,

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Speaker 2: you know, it seems like it's possible that and with

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Speaker 2: Crane's victimology of being security conscious, would he be inside

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Speaker 2: and leave that front door unlocked. Was he expecting somebody

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Speaker 2: somebody was able to walk right in or did he

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Speaker 2: let somebody in and you know, after the crime, then

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Speaker 2: that person probably leaves through this front door and doesn't

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Speaker 2: have a key to lock things up.

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Speaker 1: I've asked you this before because I think you're gonna know.

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Speaker 1: Victoria says, oh shit, and she goes into the into

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Speaker 1: the apartment. Should she have called the police or the

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Speaker 1: apartment manager or what do you what would you do?

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Speaker 1: Because if she doesn't go in, if he's alive, he

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Speaker 1: could die in that time period waiting for the police

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Speaker 1: or somebody else.

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Speaker 2: You know, I think, you know, it's it's hard to

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Speaker 2: say what she should do because what is what is

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Speaker 2: she thinking as she's standing outside? What is she observing?

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Speaker 2: Is there anything that's really off putting, you know, versus huh,

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Speaker 2: I wonder what Bob's up to. He's left the door

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Speaker 2: open immediately, you know, there's that sense of that intrusion,

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Speaker 2: that intruder. You know that that is a dangerous situation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: With Victoria, you know, she's seeing anything that's you know,

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Speaker 2: from outside that is suggesting that there's something bad inside,

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Speaker 2: or it's just like, you know, Bob just forgot to

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Speaker 2: lock the door this time.

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Speaker 1: Well, she's normous, and so she lets herself in and

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Speaker 1: she scans around the apartments on a big apartment. She

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Speaker 1: is looking for Bob. She doesn't find anything until she

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Speaker 1: goes to his bedroom and then she finds this what's

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Speaker 1: described as a bloody nightmarish scene with Bob Crane, who

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Speaker 1: is covered in blood and laying in bed. Let me

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Speaker 1: describe what she says, and then you need to look

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Speaker 1: at the separate document, which is called scene photos. She says,

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Speaker 1: at first, I thought it was a girl with long,

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Speaker 1: dark hair because all the blood had turned real dark.

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Speaker 1: The whole wall was covered from one end to the

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Speaker 1: other with blood, and I just sort of stood there

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Speaker 1: and I was numb. He was curled up in a

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Speaker 1: fetus position on his side, and he had a cord

379
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Speaker 1: tied around his neck in a bow. And the reason

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Speaker 1: I wanted to read the description first is because sometimes

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Speaker 1: you and I talk about well, they say blood's everywhere,

382
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Speaker 1: What does that really mean? They say the cord was

383
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Speaker 1: tight or in a bow? What does that mean? Now

384
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Speaker 1: you actually have the first witness on the scene who

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Speaker 1: knows him, walks in, gives the media or the police

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Speaker 1: a description. But we have the photos, so it'll be

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Speaker 1: interesting to see the contrast between what she thinks she

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Speaker 1: saw or remembers in what actually we have a lot

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Speaker 1: of photos.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I've opened up the document of seeing photos.

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Speaker 2: So I'm seeing Bob Crane laying on his bed. He's

392
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Speaker 2: on his right side. There's a pillow that's somewhat behind

393
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Speaker 2: his head, and then the zoomed in photos. You know,

394
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Speaker 2: I'm seeing the blood pool underneath his head as well

395
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Speaker 2: as the blood flows that are coming from under his

396
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Speaker 2: you know, from where his hair's at. So there's probably

397
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Speaker 2: significant wounds like lacerations from blows, which now I see

398
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Speaker 2: in the last photo he's got at least two linear

399
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Speaker 2: lacerations that have split the scalp. These would bleed tremendously,

400
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 2: and that very well could be the source of the

401
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 2: blood flows on his face. And everything that I'm seeing

402
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,879
Speaker 2: with the blood flows are consistent with the position pretty

403
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,160
Speaker 2: much as found. You know, it's not showing that there's

404
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 2: a lot of movement after he's received these bleeding injuries,

405
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,960
Speaker 2: and the blood flows are shifting as he's moving. So

406
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,840
Speaker 2: in all likelihood, he was in this position when at

407
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:30,679
Speaker 2: least those two blows were inflicted. Now, when you say

408
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Speaker 2: that there's blood all over the place, okay.

409
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Speaker 1: I don't see that, do you. I don't see it

410
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Speaker 1: on the walls.

411
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Speaker 2: I mean, well, I can see, you know, the one

412
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Speaker 2: photo that's an overall photo that shows him laying on

413
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Speaker 2: the bed and shows the wall behind him, you know,

414
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,960
Speaker 2: towards the wall that's towards the head of the bed.

415
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:53,639
Speaker 2: I am seeing what is likely blood spatter. And so

416
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 2: that's you know, maybe to the inexperienced person who's not

417
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,400
Speaker 2: used to seeing, you know, a homicie, i'd seen that

418
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 2: may be very overwhelming to see a fair amount of

419
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 2: blood spatter that is up on the wall. But it's

420
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Speaker 2: not like this room like there's just been this huge

421
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,919
Speaker 2: battle between two combatants that are bleeding and there's blood

422
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 2: smears and furniture overturned. No, you know, this appears that

423
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 2: it's very akin to possibly you know, he was asleep

424
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Speaker 2: and somebody came in and bludging him and there's no

425
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,920
Speaker 2: fight whatsoever. And the blood that Victoria is seeing is

426
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Speaker 2: spatter which comes from the blows to his head. So

427
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 2: when we start talking, you know blood patterns. Blood spatter

428
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:45,360
Speaker 2: occurs when there's a pooled blood source. So imagine if

429
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Speaker 2: you have let's say a puddle, right and you stomp

430
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 2: in that puddle. Now you can get spatter with Bob

431
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 2: Crane's head. He's going to have to have received a

432
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Speaker 2: blow that would cause blood to pull in a wound,

433
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 2: so that first blow does not create spatter, but now

434
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 2: that he's bleeding, the second blow and the third blow

435
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 2: potentially could produce the spatter that I somewhat seeing on

436
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,400
Speaker 2: the wall behind him. The pellow behind him is interesting.

437
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,919
Speaker 2: There's a very large blood stain on that pillow. That

438
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 2: pellow's been moved by the time this photo was taken,

439
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 2: and let me just look at other photos just to

440
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:27,640
Speaker 2: see if it shows the pellow in a different position.

441
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 2: So that very large blood stain on the pillow suggests

442
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 2: that it was closer and possibly had been up against

443
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,360
Speaker 2: his head or his head had been on it at

444
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 2: one point after he bled. I would need to see

445
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,440
Speaker 2: more in terms of his injuries and the blood patterns

446
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 2: to determine what the final resting position of that pellow

447
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 2: was when the offender left the crime scene. But in essence,

448
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 2: you know he's received at least, you know, several blows.

449
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 2: I'm seeing, you know, hemorrhaging to his left eye. That

450
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 2: suggests that, you know, he's got skull fracture, he's got

451
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 2: you know, cerebral hemorrhaging occurring. You know it's possible orbital fractures.

452
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,400
Speaker 2: And so now you see the you know, the extent.

453
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,640
Speaker 2: Obviously this is a fatal bludgeting. I don't know how

454
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 2: many blows at this point or what the weapon is.

455
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 2: There is a photo of what appears to be two

456
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 2: linear blood deposits. I believe that's on top of the yeah,

457
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 2: that's on the bed, that's on the edge of the

458
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 2: bed with a ruler suggesting that these linear blood deposits

459
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 2: are roughly one is roughly eight inches long, the other

460
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 2: is possibly twelve inches long. The shape of this linear

461
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 2: shape possibly could be from the weapon. Let's say the

462
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 2: weapon is something akin to a baseball bat or a

463
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 2: wood doal, and after inflicting the blows, the blood being

464
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 2: transferred onto the weapon, it was placed on this bed

465
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 2: sheet maybe twice. This linear blood pattern is too indistinct

466
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 2: to draw any conclusion as to well, what is the

467
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 2: weapon if that's even from the weapon, But right now

468
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 2: that would be my initial assessment.

469
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about the cord, because what they determine

470
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: is this is an electrical cord that was yanked from

471
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: a VCR. Bob had a lot of recording equipment throughout

472
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 1: you know, his house in la but also you know,

473
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: at this place in Scottsdale, and it's been tied around

474
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: his neck. First, I guess, let's talk about the bow

475
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,479
Speaker 1: that she's talking about. It's on the back of his

476
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: neck or the side of his neck. Just what does

477
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 1: that whole the cord tell you about any of it?

478
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 1: Because they determine that he's got two blows on the

479
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 1: side of the head. They have an idea of what

480
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 1: the object was, but they also say, of course you

481
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 1: know their strangulation.

482
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,959
Speaker 2: Yes, And so I am looking at the close up

483
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 2: photo of the electrical cord. It's showing Crane's left ear

484
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 2: with the blood flows, and then this electrical cord which

485
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 2: it's tied from behind, you know, from the backside of

486
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 2: his neck. Now I don't in this photo. I don't

487
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 2: see anything that I would call a bow. This right

488
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 2: here is a simple half hitch. Basically, you know, when

489
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 2: you first start tying your shoe and you cross the

490
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 2: two laces. That's a half hitch. That's all I'm seeing

491
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 2: in this photo. Now, maybe there's more of the knot

492
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 2: that is deeper in the kind of embedded into the

493
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 2: tissue of his neck that I can't see from here,

494
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 2: but right now it looks like it's just a half

495
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 2: hitch and it's been tied tight. The interesting thing that

496
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 2: I'm seeing about this is that if you look at

497
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 2: the blood flows coming, you know, past his left ear,

498
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: and those blood flows are running underneath that cord. This

499
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 2: is where at the scene I would be looking at

500
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:01,959
Speaker 2: that cord, because it appears that if that chord is

501
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 2: laying down on the side of his face where those

502
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 2: blood flows are flowing, so it's resting on his skin.

503
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 2: Those blood flows are uninterrupted. That indicates those blood flows

504
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 2: occurred before that cord was possibly applied. That's sequencing information.

505
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 1: So he was beaten first.

506
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 2: Okay, at least with what I can see. That is

507
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 2: my what I am interpreting, And I'm having to make

508
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 2: a certain assumption because I don't have a photo that's

509
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 2: showing how that cord is actually resting on his skin

510
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 2: or not. But this appears from a sequence standpoint. What

511
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 2: seems to be logical is his crane is in his

512
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: bed asleep or somehow other, you know, just doesn't appear

513
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 2: that he is interacting necessarily with an intruder like in

514
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: a fight. He's down on the bed, he receives these

515
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 2: blows that are likely fatal, and then the offender, after

516
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 2: inflicting those blows, goes and gets the electrical cord. And

517
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 2: I've talked about this on other episodes. Is this is

518
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 2: a common thing, is that the offender doesn't know what

519
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 2: is he dead or not, and is making sure he's

520
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 2: dead by applying a ligature. So when he walks away.

521
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 2: He knows that this ligature is cutting off any possibility

522
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 2: of Bob Crane coming back to life.

523
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: Now, if you look at that last photo, the autopsy

524
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: photo that's got you know, the two marks on the

525
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,199
Speaker 1: side of his head, you can see where the chord was.

526
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: Does that tell you anything? Does that look we see

527
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,479
Speaker 1: the indentation, does that look deep to you? Or does

528
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 1: that give you any information based on a photo?

529
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 2: Well, you know, when we start talking about this furrow,

530
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: you know, when a ligature is tied around the neck,

531
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: you know, the tissue underneath the ligature gets compressed, and

532
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 2: so there is a At this time, after the electrical

533
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,719
Speaker 2: cord of the ligature has been removed, there is an

534
00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: apparent furrow. However, you know, the tissue has kind of expand.

535
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 2: So it's hard to interpret at this point exactly how

536
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: deep or how tightly that ligature was applied. And the

537
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,479
Speaker 2: photo I was just looking at it's not a you know,

538
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,959
Speaker 2: from the side of his neck, it doesn't look like

539
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 2: it is excessively tight. Now, it very well could be

540
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 2: effective for strangulation, but I have seen far, far worse

541
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 2: in terms of ligatures literally compressing the neck tissues to

542
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 2: where you know, it cuts into the tissue around the neck.

543
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 2: That's how tight sometimes these ligatures are applied, and this

544
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 2: is a narrow This electrical cord is very narrow. It's

545
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 2: just your typical power cord, you know, little two strands

546
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 2: you know of covered copper wire. If it were tied

547
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 2: really tight, it would dig into his neck quite a bit.

548
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 2: So one of the things I would want to know

549
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 2: from autopsy is is there diagnostics present indicating strangulation, you know,

550
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 2: does he have petikia in his eyes? You know, does

551
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 2: that suggest that his heart is still pumping or is

552
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 2: he absent any of the diagnostics of strangulation that possibly

553
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 2: would suggest that he was already dead his heart's not

554
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: pumping when that electrical cord was applied.

555
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: Hmm, okay, let me look real quick. The medical examiner

556
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: is a little problematic because it sounds like he climbed

557
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: over the body to do certain things and it knocked

558
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: the body around, and the investigation is criticized quite a bit.

559
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: Well, let me let me make a comment on that,

560
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: because you know, as you started talking about Scottsdale and

561
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 2: I have some familiarity. You know, this is an upper

562
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 2: end community. You know, they don't deal with a lot

563
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 2: of violent crime, like maybe you know, investigators down in

564
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 2: Phoenix are dealing with and I'm assuming this is a

565
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: Scottsdale PD case, you know, so from that perspective, you

566
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 2: know they may have been in over their head. Nineteen

567
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 2: seven d eight Scottsdale PD. It's possible they probably hadn't

568
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 2: had a homicide, particularly one like this, for many years.

569
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 2: And then the other thing is is the medical examiner.

570
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 2: You know, he may be a very, very competent pathologist,

571
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: but is he good at crime scene investigation? Why is

572
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 2: a pathologist climbing all over this bed? That's a no. No.

573
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: You listen to this and it's like you're reading from

574
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 1: my prep document from maren. So Obviously Victoria had called

575
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 1: the police Scottsdale comes. They don't have a dedicated homicide unit. Yeah,

576
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: they don't deal with you know, homicides in this way.

577
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: And of course they don't secure the crime scene, which

578
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: would be the first assumption I would make. They don't

579
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: know how to do that. Victoria hangs around in the

580
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: apartment the whole time, you know, they don't boot her out,

581
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: and the Emmy, as I said, climbs over his corpse

582
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: to shave his head so he could look at the

583
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: injuries right then and there.

584
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, this this is just a it's a cluster, you know,

585
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 2: there's there None of this should be happening. It doesn't

586
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 2: sound like this. Corners are this Medical Examiner's office have

587
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 2: death investigators because typically the sequence is, you know, of

588
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 2: course you have a homicide, you set up a perimeter.

589
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 2: You know, somebody like Victoria absolutely is out. She needs

590
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 2: to be taken back to the office and interviewed, have

591
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 2: a formal interview at that point. But then you have

592
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: to get a warrant, and then there's a succession of Okay,

593
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 2: once you have a warrant, then you get competent csis

594
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 2: that are now documenting the scene, you know, as soon

595
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 2: as they possibly can get inside without anything being disturbed.

596
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 2: And at a certain point, once the scene is documented

597
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 2: and transient evidence has been documented and collected, you know,

598
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 2: like some you know, trace evidence or let's say impression

599
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 2: evidence that could possibly be stepped on by you know,

600
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 2: the death investigators. But then that's when you get the

601
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 2: death investigators out, because they have their own role about

602
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 2: documenting Bob Crane's body.

603
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: The Scottsdale PD does get a little bit of praise

604
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: for it, just for trying to to sort through this scene.

605
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 1: Nothing's missing, as I had mentioned before, nothing of value,

606
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: at least except for this tripod. They don't find any

607
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: signs of forced entry. The front door was unlocked, and

608
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: the sliding glass door that leads to this pool, this

609
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: public pool, are both unlocked. Okay, so Bob was a

610
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: security freak in the seventies. He locks his doors, which

611
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: sometimes we didn't lock our doors in the seventies, definitely

612
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: not when we were on our farm. So that makes

613
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: of course, investigators think that the killer knew him. Perhaps

614
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: it was a friend. Of course, they're going to look

615
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: at the young woman who was coming to his house.

616
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: So you know, there's a lot of possibilities, but this

617
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 1: is where they're heading so far. Okay, they think that

618
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: the killer fled through the front door after killing Bob,

619
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: and I'll tell you why. So there's a reporter named

620
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: John Hook who all mentioned several times. He ends up

621
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: writing a book about this, and he says that there

622
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: were small spots of blood on the inside door knob

623
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: and the lock. There's a corner's report that suggests that

624
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: he died between three am and eight am, but likely

625
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: closer to three am. Let's get to our first suspect,

626
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: and it is not Victoria. Victoria has never considered a

627
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: suspect at all, so around three fifteen, so she finds

628
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: him around two she calls the police. Around three fifteen.

629
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,760
Speaker 1: Victoria is giving the police her statement in the kitchen.

630
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 1: She hung out for quite a long time there, I mean, okay, sorry,

631
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure they learned a lesson with that, although I

632
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: don't know if she disturbed anything, but still, you know,

633
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: you're right all the blood deposits and everything. She's in

634
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: the kitchen and the phone rings, his home phone on

635
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 1: a hunch that Bob's killer could be calling to figure

636
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 1: out what's going on. There's a police attendant who says,

637
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 1: go ahead and answer the phone, but don't sing anything

638
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: about Bob's death. She picks up the phone and the

639
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 1: person on the other end is a guy named John Carpenter,

640
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: not the horror film director, but a different John Carpenter.

641
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: So Bob and John are friends, and Victoria knows John,

642
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: and John works in sales for some big electronics companies.

643
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: So he works for Sony and Kenwood, and he's got

644
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: some big celebrity clients, including Bob. That's how they met.

645
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: And I just thought to myself, I did not know

646
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: that celebrities needed an electronics go to God. Maybe maybe

647
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: they do.

648
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 2: Does he have like a hobby where he's got recording

649
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 2: equipment in his apartment or something like that, So that's interesting.

650
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: Yes, he does have a hobby, and I'll tell you

651
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: about it in a minute. So Victoria and John have

652
00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: a very short conversation. And remember the lieutenant says, don't

653
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 1: tell him that Bob's dead, and John lets her know

654
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 1: that he's back in Los Angeles. So he was in

655
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: Scottsdale and now he's back in LA. And that's important

656
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: because the night that Bob died, he had been hanging

657
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 1: out with John Carpenter. So whatever happened, if John's involved,

658
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: he ended back up in LA very very quickly. And

659
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: before you react to that, let me say that the

660
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: lieutenant takes the phone from Victoria. He says that the

661
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: police are looking into an incident quote unquote incident that

662
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: happened at the apartment, and John says that, well, I

663
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: was out with Bob around one am. Later he'll change

664
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 1: that to two forty five before he then eventually heads

665
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: to the airport and he catches his flight back to California,

666
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 1: but he doesn't ask what this incident is. This is

667
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: a good friend of his, he's known for quite a while,

668
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,800
Speaker 1: and of course the lieutenant thinks that that's pretty odd.

669
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: So John Carpenter ends up at the top of the list,

670
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: even though there's a woman who found him, you know,

671
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: and obviously had access to the apartment and was supposed

672
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 1: to go over there. So after that, we've got the

673
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 1: phone ringing in Bob's apartment three more times. One's a

674
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,720
Speaker 1: female friend quote unquote who is described by the Phoenix

675
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: New Times as a friend and a girlfriend of Bob's.

676
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: One is his son, who is Bob Crane Junior, who's

677
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 1: just calling to check in on his dad. And then

678
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: John Carpenter calls again, and this time he wants details

679
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: of this incident at the apartment. Do you think that

680
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: not asking what this incident was at the apartment is

681
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: alarming or should be alarming? He had just been with

682
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 1: this guy twelve hours earlier, by his own admission.

683
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 2: Well, do we have a history of law enforcement responding

684
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 2: to Crane's apartment prior to this?

685
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 1: No, because he hasn't been there very long. Remember he's

686
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: just in town for a month or how over long

687
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 1: this dinner show goes, you.

688
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 2: Know, I guess, you know, that's hard to say if

689
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 2: it's suspicious or not. Not asking about the incident. Part

690
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 2: of that, at least the way I'm thinking about it, is, well,

691
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 2: what is the conversation, Like, how how is Carpenter hearing

692
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 2: Victoria's or panic in her voice? Is she crying? You know?

693
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 2: How is lieutenant talking to him? You know? Is he

694
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 2: assuming maybe it's just a minor thing, maybe somebody through

695
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 2: a brick through the window, you know, or you know,

696
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 2: is there anything with over the phone that you would

697
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 2: expect Carpenter to go, oh, something really bad happened, you know.

698
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 2: So it's all kind of that interchange, is what I

699
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 2: would I kind of want to know more about in

700
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 2: order to say, oh, yeah, he probably should have been

701
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 2: Victoria's crying, you know, why isn't he asking about the incident?

702
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 2: You know, why isn't he asking her what's wrong? You know? Yeah,

703
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,439
Speaker 2: So that would make it suspicious if there was some

704
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 2: sort of message from Victoria or the lieutenant that Carpenter

705
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,720
Speaker 2: should have picked up on that something really bad happened

706
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 2: to Bob Crane as good friend.

707
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,919
Speaker 1: You know, I mean Dean asked him that Lieutenant Dean

708
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: asked Victoria to pretend like everything is okay. So I'm

709
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: assuming there was no crying or anything. And I don't

710
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 1: know what the tone was, but you know, I'm I

711
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,240
Speaker 1: was thinking when I was reading that he was probably

712
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 1: sort of mysterious on the phone to see how much

713
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: is John Carpenter going to pursue this? You know, how

714
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 1: curious is this guy?

715
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 2: So I think that, you know, Victoria's interaction with Carpenter

716
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 2: over the phone kind of lessons why he should think

717
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 2: something bad has happened because she's abiding by the orders

718
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 2: of the lieutenant. Yeah, and then it sounds like the

719
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 2: lieutenant is not trying to convey the seriousness of the

720
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: crime to Carpenter. So there's also a level of intimidation, right.

721
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 2: This is something where like if you if you interact

722
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 2: with an officer that's in uniform, that uniform has a

723
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:09,760
Speaker 2: certain intimidating effect on people. So maybe that you're talking

724
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 2: to an officer and the officer says, well, we're investigating

725
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 2: an incident, and you may not feel that you can

726
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 2: ask about the incident just because of this. This person is

727
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 2: not divulging it, so therefore he probably doesn't want me

728
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 2: to know, and he's got a uniform on here. Carpenter

729
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 2: is talking to a lieutenant, you know, from law enforcement

730
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,879
Speaker 2: who's not divulging the details, and so he possibly goes,

731
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 2: I can't ask this authority figure more information due to

732
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,399
Speaker 2: that sort of that intimidation aspect that I'm referring to.

733
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 2: But I think, you know, I want to know so

734
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 2: much more about Carpenter. You know, what did he say

735
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 2: him and Bob did you know for the time that

736
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 2: they hung out? Was his flight already pre arranged, you know?

737
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,479
Speaker 2: Or was this a last minute thing like he's trying

738
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 2: to get out of town. So you know, there's a

739
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,760
Speaker 2: lot more information that I need before before I start

740
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 2: getting suspicious about Carpenter. Right now, I think the biggest

741
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 2: suspicion I have is the timing. You know, he's with

742
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 2: Bob Crane to one am, changes that to forty five am,

743
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 2: So he's now right within that window potentially of when

744
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 2: Crane was killed.

745
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: And I wonder why he changed that. I mean, if

746
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 1: he's involved and it really is happening based on the

747
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: rigor when the I mean, he thinks it's happening. Why

748
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: make it so that you're closer there? You know?

749
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 2: Well, I think either time is within the window. Any

750
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 2: time of death estimate from let's say rigor mortars or

751
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 2: whatever the pathologist is using, that's a rough estimate. So

752
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 2: it's possible Bob Crane could have been killed at one AM.

753
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 2: Okay with Carpenter's initial statement. I also think let's say

754
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 2: Carpenter is responsible and he's changing the time as he's

755
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 2: sitting and thinking, he's going to go, oh, I was

756
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 2: seen at the apartment at this time, and they're going

757
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 2: to find that witness, so I better make sure I

758
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 2: offer up this new time to account for being seen

759
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 2: by this witness, to make it look like I'm not

760
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 2: trying to lie and distance myself from the crime scene.

761
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 1: Well, this is when things get real wonky with this case.

762
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 1: So they look around, they're trying to find clues, nothing's missing.

763
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 1: Then they start digging through some of Bob's files. They

764
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,439
Speaker 1: find hundreds of nude photos of different women which were

765
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 1: taken with his polaroid. They also find countless home videos

766
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 1: of Bob having sex with women, which were presumably filmed

767
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 1: on cameras that John Carpenter sold him and we eventually

768
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: find that out that John was pretty involved with this world.

769
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: There's a photo of a camera. I mean, if you

770
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: really want to see it, I can show you. But

771
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: I mean it's literally a video camera set up pointed

772
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: at the bed. There are many women who consented to

773
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: being filmed. They went through and tried to find all

774
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: of these women. There are others who had no clue

775
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: that they were being recorded, and of course they want

776
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: to know does this have to do with his murder?

777
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: Do you want to comment on this or do you

778
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 1: want me to talk about sort of the possibilities of

779
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,720
Speaker 1: people who could be pissed off at him for various reasons.

780
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 2: You know, my initial thought is are they producing porn?

781
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 2: You know? Is this a business venture? It's like, okay,

782
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 2: is there anything unusual in terms of the photography? Is

783
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,919
Speaker 2: there any type of sexual paraphilias, you know, unusual sex

784
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: acts that they are filming? You know, does Bob Crane

785
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 2: from a victimology standpoint, is this something that he's been

786
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 2: doing for a long time, maybe for his own personal use,

787
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 2: if you will, But also now with Carpenter, if this

788
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 2: relationship that you know, Carpenter has access to a variety

789
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 2: of different types of electronics that could be needed in

790
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 2: order to produce you know this, this pornography. And in

791
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,800
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight, oh jeez, this is this is around

792
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 2: the era of when you know, the Beta max and

793
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 2: the VHS tapes were were coming out. I can't remember

794
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 2: exactly when they came out, but you need if you're

795
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 2: going to produce something, you need to be able to

796
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 2: put this on a medium that you can sell. It's

797
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 2: not like he can upload it to the web. Yeah,

798
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 2: you know, so are they seeing anything like that within

799
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 2: you know, Crane's apartment or they most certainly should be

800
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,360
Speaker 2: doing a search wart on John Carpenter's residence, you know

801
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 2: wherever that is. It sounds like it's out in LA

802
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 2: And yeah, you know, where was he staying while he

803
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 2: was out in the Phoenix area, et cetera. Yeah, so

804
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 2: there's lots of questions here.

805
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 1: Let me see. I did not think you would want

806
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: to need to see that camera, but it sounds like

807
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 1: that would be helpful. So hopefully you can see this,

808
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: so you'll see on you know, the kind of the bottom,

809
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: the middle, there's a lot of equipment. Oh, and this

810
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: isn't his apartment. This is more than an antacam for

811
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: some pervert who's recording women without them knowing. Yeah, but

812
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:02,919
Speaker 1: he's in a he's in a show at the same time.

813
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 1: You know who knows sure?

814
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 2: You know, part of yeah, his his professional career is

815
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,240
Speaker 2: of course, you know, being in front of the camera

816
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 2: being recorded, you know, audio recording. You know, this is

817
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 2: not a small little camera. You know this, I'm looking

818
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 2: at a photograph of you know, a boxy camera on

819
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 2: a tripod. The tripod is not very tall, and this

820
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 2: appears to possibly be out more in the living space.

821
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,399
Speaker 2: It's not, doesn't it's not in the bedroom. It doesn't

822
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 2: appear to be.

823
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think that's a fireplace. Does that look

824
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 1: like a fireplace in the background to you?

825
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 2: Yeah? So you know, is it possible that maybe you know,

826
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 2: they they practice some of the the the acting skits

827
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 2: and record themselves and watch it on the TV to

828
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 2: get that sort of that immediate feedback. You know that

829
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 2: that is a possibility. So is that you know, he's

830
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 2: got video and photos of of nude women, some consenting,

831
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,720
Speaker 2: some not. You know, there these videos are being made.

832
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 2: These women have no idea they're being filmed. So that

833
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,760
Speaker 2: would suggest that either they're not recognizing that this camera

834
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 2: is actually on, or don't even know what it is

835
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,720
Speaker 2: if they're looking at it, or he's got it hidden

836
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 2: and turned on while there's sex acts occurring. You know,

837
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 2: it does make me suspicious about the possibility that they're

838
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 2: recording these these women for commercial purposes.

839
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:29,919
Speaker 1: I was trying to figure out if we knew how

840
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: long he had been in Scottsdale, because five hundred videos

841
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 1: and photos. Did he drag those all from LA? So

842
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 1: what's happening? I mean, maybe he drove I don't.

843
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, possibly, you know, you put all the electronics

844
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 2: in the car and move out. But if he's you know,

845
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 2: if he's out in Scottsdale for just a handful of weeks,

846
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 2: he's obviously taking advantage of the time that he's out

847
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 2: in Scottsdale to continue utilizing, you know, the camera and

848
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 2: having the material, all the photos and these videos. So

849
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,479
Speaker 2: that's that does seem odd. And of course it's like, well,

850
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 2: what does John Carpenter say about all this?

851
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me just say, it looks to me like, yes,

852
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 1: he was only there for the run. It's not like

853
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: he had I just thought maybe he moved there or something.

854
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 1: That's a lot of equipment and all of that, and

855
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: it said, it says, it looks likely that he was

856
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 1: just there. It could have been even just for a

857
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: few weeks. We don't know. So let me go through

858
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 1: and tell you some other stuff that's going on here.

859
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: So now they say this guy's a pervert and has

860
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: got some pretty big issues, and of course John Carpenter,

861
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: being his electronics guy, is going to get pulled into this.

862
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 1: So they start asking questions about his wife, who was

863
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 1: an actress named Patricia Olsen who goes by Patty Marriage

864
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: was on the rocks. She knows all about his cereal cheating.

865
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: She says that the two had actually tried to in

866
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,400
Speaker 1: their marriage. They were going to but and they had

867
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 1: been talking about this, it sounds like for a while

868
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,399
Speaker 1: because he was cheating and she was tired of it.

869
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if she knows about all these photos

870
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,240
Speaker 1: and videos. I don't know if she's one of people

871
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 1: on these photos or videos. So then she says, and

872
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: this is where John's involvement could come in. According to

873
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 1: the police. She says that they were recently reconciling. They

874
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,959
Speaker 1: wanted to make the relationship work that he went into

875
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 1: therapy trying to get a handle on what is described

876
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 1: in I think the newspaper reporting as a sex addiction.

877
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: I don't even know if they used that phrase in

878
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,320
Speaker 1: the seventies in therapy. Maybe. In any case, the police

879
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 1: don't consider her a viable suspect. She's not there, and

880
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure she was shocked about hearing about

881
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 1: these five hundred photo videos happening. Bob had slept with

882
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: another suspect, a Scottsdale woman who had a really jealous

883
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: ex boyfriend. At one point, this guy taped a mutilated

884
00:48:55,840 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: newspaper photograph of Bob Crane to his ex girlfriend's back

885
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 1: door after this guy found out that she was sleeping

886
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: with Bob Crane. But the man you know, who's not

887
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:12,280
Speaker 1: named by reporters, isn't ever really considered a strong suspect.

888
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: There are also reports from a furniture mover who says

889
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:19,720
Speaker 1: that police saw a man leaving Bob's apartment that morning

890
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: June twenty ninth, and he was found at two o'clock

891
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:25,359
Speaker 1: later that day. According to this tipster, the man had

892
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: left the scene in a white Cadillac with a California license. Plates,

893
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 1: So I will say, I'll put this one more thing

894
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:38,359
Speaker 1: in here. Victoria. The Victoria her boyfriend who she ends

895
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 1: up marrying later on, is a guy named Alan Wells.

896
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 1: He drove a white Cadillac with California plates. Although probably

897
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: in the seventies you could throw a rock and hit

898
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 1: one of those, he was never tied to this. So

899
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 1: I mean, this is this is what I'm saying is

900
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: there's this array of people plus every woman who you

901
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 1: know found out that he was a sleeves bag who knows.

902
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:03,320
Speaker 2: You know, obviously Carpenter's association with Crane, the evening before

903
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 2: and the timing that Carpenter says he hung out with Crane,

904
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,879
Speaker 2: you know, that puts him in play. But I went

905
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 2: and dismiss you know, these other suspects. You know, I

906
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 2: don't know what law enforcement found out. Are there good

907
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 2: alibis for some of these other you know, the boyfriends

908
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 2: of you know, these women that you know Crane slept with,

909
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:28,720
Speaker 2: like that Scottsdale woman. You know, part of assessing this crime,

910
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 2: and early on you informed me there is nothing taken

911
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 2: except maybe a tripod, right, So this was a targeted attack.

912
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 2: The offenders not going into this apartment and tossing things

913
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 2: around looking for valuables. There isn't a lot of valuable

914
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 2: stuff that has been taken. You'll think about the expense

915
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 2: of some of that electronic equipment, you know, some of

916
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 2: it is portable enough that somebody wanted to take it,

917
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 2: they could, but they don't. They literally go into this

918
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 2: apartment and it just does not look like there's like

919
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:13,280
Speaker 2: a fight between Crane and the offender in this case.

920
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 2: This is either Crane is asleep, how much interaction Crane

921
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 2: had with the offender ahead of time, you know, are

922
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:24,320
Speaker 2: they in bed together, and then you know, Crane falls

923
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 2: asleep and the offender kills them. You know, there's always

924
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 2: you know, scenarios, but this appears to be the offender

925
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 2: went into that apartment and at some point decided to

926
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 2: kill Crane and left the apartment. And there's no other

927
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 2: type of motive outside of the homicide.

928
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 1: Well, the police, to wrap up part one here, are

929
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: very focused on John Carpenter. Part of it is, you know,

930
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 1: the doors that were unlocked, no forced entry. As you

931
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 1: had said, this sounds I don't know about personal but

932
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: it's not robbery. It's not punk kids most likely breaking

933
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 1: in here but somebody that you likely let in. They

934
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: are focused on this guy, and John Carpenter, I'm sure,

935
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 1: is getting very nervous in this situation.

936
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 2: Sure, I just want to underscore what no sigence of

937
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 2: forced entry means. We talk about different scenarios. How he

938
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,720
Speaker 2: could have let the offender in because he knows the offender.

939
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 2: But you also could have a knock on the door

940
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 2: and Crane goes to the door and the offender pushes into.

941
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 2: This is forced entry, but there isn't the physical damage

942
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 2: that law enforcement can use to assess. Oh, yes, somebody

943
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 2: forced their way in, and so that's where it's hard

944
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 2: to draw a firm conclusion. Crane must have known the

945
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 2: offender and let him in. You know, it could be

946
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 2: a stranger that forced his way in.

947
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: It could have been this ex boyfriend holding a gun.

948
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: So there's not even a push, so nobody even hears anything.

949
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: He says, get inside, and that's it. Well, there's a

950
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 1: lot on the table. This also should have been like

951
00:52:55,280 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 1: a three parter, probably because that happens with this so

952
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 1: we you know, next week we'll talk about Bob Crane.

953
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 1: How he is not even it seems remotely like the

954
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 1: lovable character that we see in the comedy series Hogan's Heroes.

955
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 1: And I think this was very shocking to a lot

956
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 1: of people when it came out. And we'll talk about

957
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 1: John Carpenter and where this story goes because it is

958
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 1: such a Hollywood mystery still. But you asked for it, buddy.

959
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 1: You wanted to talk about Bob Crane with somebody, and

960
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: I'm somebody.

961
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I will say, yeah, this case is turning

962
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,320
Speaker 2: out to be more interesting than what I realized.

963
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:36,879
Speaker 1: Oh, very good that if I could just get past

964
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 1: that threshold with every case we talk about, that's all

965
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 1: I need a little better than I thought.

966
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, well I'm looking forward to the next part, and.

967
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 1: Don't google anything about Bob Crane.

968
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 2: I won't.

969
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: Okay, I'll see you next week.

970
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 2: Sounds good.

971
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,240
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

972
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightemedia dot

973
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

974
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

975
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:12,800
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

976
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

977
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel Our.

978
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 1: Artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

979
00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

980
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

981
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 1: buried Bones pod.

982
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

983
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

984
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

985
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

986
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 1: cold Cases is also available now.

987
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 2: Listen to Baried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

988
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts