WEBVTT - Gil Hanse Talks Municipal Golf 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.520 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:02.640 --> 0:00:04.920 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.200 And when I find my ball in. 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:09.840 A bride egg Friday egg, the dreaded Friday Friday, Frida 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:12.559 Egg Egg, Frida Egg, bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:13.640 to run off of the hump. 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.800 Welcome to the Friday Golf Podcast. I'm Garrett Morrison, and 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:42.600 today we're talking about municipal golf with the architect Gil Hants. 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:45.680 This conversation took place a couple of weeks ago at 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:50.200 the third annual National Links Trust Symposium on Municipal Golf. 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:54.640 The NLT Symposium is basically a gathering of people who 0:00:55.160 --> 0:01:00.040 work in and advocate for municipal golf in America, and 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.600 for the twenty twenty three edition, I was very honored 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:06.440 to serve as the MC and host a couple of 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:10.240 the conversations on stage. As the closing event of this 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:13.440 year's symposium, Gil Hans and I got up in front 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:16.319 of a crowd at the Pearl Street Warehouse in Washington, 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:20.839 d C. And we talked about Gill's various municipal golf projects, 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:24.560 which date back to the building of Rustic Canyon and 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:28.600 the renovation of Seoul Park, both in California. More recently, 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:31.840 Gil designed the new park in West Palm Beach and 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:36.360 he's currently working on projects at Maggie Hathaway in Los Angeles, 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:41.520 Rock Creek Park in d C. And Cobbs Creek in Philadelphia, which, 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:44.480 by the way, that last one, Cobbs Creek, I mistakenly 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:48.240 forgot to ask him about. It was a really fun conversation. 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:52.160 I was a little nervous. I'd never done anything like 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:55.880 this before, getting up and kind of performing a conversation, 0:01:56.120 --> 0:02:00.160 but Gil is so good in these situations, and we 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:02.720 just ended up kind of nerding out about golf like 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:05.800 we usually do, except this time it happened to be 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:09.320 in front of an audience. So great experience, and I 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:12.519 really want to thank everyone at the National Links Trust 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:15.960 for inviting me to be involved. They have a fantastic 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:18.600 team over there, and I truly think they're going to 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:21.960 help shape the future of golf in a very positive way. 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:24.520 So if you ever have a chance to attend the 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:28.520 NLT Symposium next year or the year after, you should 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:32.160 absolutely do so. 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They handwrite all gift notes 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:26.640 on nice stationary and a human will answer your call 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:29.880 or email. So check out fat Cork. And with that, 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:32.760 here is me and Gil Hans at the National Links 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:46.440 Trust Symposium on Municipal Golf. Please welcome to the stage, 0:04:46.760 --> 0:05:00.680 Gil Hans, All right, Gil you ready? Yeah, all right. 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:05.680 So the focus of this conversation is municipal golf. So 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:09.280 I want to take you back a couple of decades. 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:13.520 This was before the Olympic course. This was before you 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.280 had to tell people not to call you the open doctor, 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.600 which I'm still resisting. You were an up and coming 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:24.520 golf architect and one of your first handful of new 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:28.440 build projects was at Rustic Canyon. Now, I think Rustic 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.680 Canyon is one of the best municipal courses in the country. 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:33.920 So could you tell me a little bit about how 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.760 this project came about, just to get right into it. 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.840 Sure, Thanks everybody for being here tonight. By the way, 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:44.640 the green room is not green, in case anybody was interested. 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:48.839 More of a darkish, bluish yeah, kind of, yeah, actually 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:52.560 it was. It all came from Jeff Shackelford. Jeff his father, 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:55.360 Lynn had worked for American Golf and then he had 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:57.840 partnered up with Craig Price on a few projects, and 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:01.919 so Craig was looking at bidding for Ventura County to 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:05.000 get to do Rusta Canyon, and so he talked to 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:08.360 Lynn Shackelford. Jeff then talked to us because I had 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:11.240 done the sketches for his book Grounds for Golf. So 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:13.240 Jeff and I had become friends at that point in time. 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.320 And it's really just one introduction after another. And I 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:20.520 know at the time they had talked to several sort 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:24.760 of bigger name architects and they said the site was 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:27.880 too flat. It's too flat for good golf, wasn't interesting. 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:30.880 We kept hearing this over and over again, and you know, 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:32.680 the more we walked around out though, the more we 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:36.240 realized that it was flat if you weren't really looking. 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:39.080 But it was seriously tilted. I mean from the high 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:40.960 end to the low end was well over one hundred 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:43.320 and fifty feet, so there was tons of elevation change. 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:46.640 The little dry wash that ran through the middle presented 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:51.320 tons of opportunities. Jeff being George Thomas's biographer and intimately 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:55.800 knowledgeable about Riviera bel Air, not so much lacc at 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:58.919 that point in time, but he had these concepts of 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:02.520 let's build these Thomas holes, and we've got the branca 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:06.200 and the opportunity to do that. And so we were 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:10.000 eventually selected for the job, and you know, said to it. 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:12.320 As you said, there was maybe one or two projects 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:13.680 we were working on at the time, so we spent 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:18.800 a lot of time on site. It was a dusty, 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:22.320 dirty site because you know, it doesn't rain in California 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:24.040 very often, and so it was just but it was 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:28.000 a fun site. We had the freedom and the opportunity, 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:31.080 the ability to build golf holes that we thought were 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:33.960 interesting and special. And I think that was one of 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:39.080 the best lessons of that project was we've never set 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:41.920 out to dumb down our golf courses because they're public. 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:44.600 We've never set out to say, well, it's going to 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:46.840 be the average golfer, a municipal golfer is going to 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:50.440 play here, so let's just give them the vanilla version. Thought, 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:53.120 why should we do that. We should still build the 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:54.800 golf course to the best of our ability, put the 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:57.040 most interest we can into it, and really design it 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.560 to the standard, whether it was private or public, try 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:04.160 and create some things. We worked really hard on width 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.120 out there. We had the opportunity to build wide corridors, 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:10.000 to create options. You know, with for WID's sake, isn't 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:12.200 that interesting. But when you have with it and it 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:15.040 gives you options and gives you better angles and different 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:18.560 ways to play these golf holes, I think that that 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:21.640 that's it made a lot of sense. Early on, it 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:24.000 was probably the biggest site we had gotten our hands on, 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:27.640 and then it was also, you know, the site of 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:32.880 our biggest pop culture phenomenon in that those any Entourage 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.440 fans out there, all right, So one of the episodes 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:39.199 they were talking about going to play golf and they asked, 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:41.080 Johnny Drama, he said where are you going to play golf? 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:43.520 And he said Russa Canyon, the best public golf course 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:46.319 in southern California. So I had that from a ring 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:51.080 tone for a little while. But no, it was an 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:53.720 amazing opportunity. You know, Jeff was such a great person 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:56.199 to partner with on that. Jim and I would be 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:59.280 stuck into the machinery and work and then people say, well, 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:01.840 what did Jeff do? And he actually was like a 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:05.240 hole ahead. He was walking and looking because he didn't 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:07.600 really want to work on equipment and he didn't want 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:13.400 to work with a shovel, I mean want to damage 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:17.120 his hands. But no, he was a hole ahead, looking 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:19.520 and thinking and brainstorming. So that when Jim and I 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:21.839 finished a hole, we went over and it was like okay, 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:23.880 instead of going now what do we do? I was like, Hey, 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:26.840 what about this? And I think it fueled a ton 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:29.360 of great ideas and a lot of great energy out 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:29.840 on the site. 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:33.520 I didn't know that story about entourage, his rust of 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:37.360 Canyon really a Johnny Drama kind of course, I wonder, I. 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:39.120 Think so, I mean, it's one of those places we 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:43.400 get you know, I run into people here and there, obviously, 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:48.080 and I get so many comments about Usta Caanyon. Soul 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:50.480 Park is another one. And then the strangest one of 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.880 all is Swanee, the University of the South. We did 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:56.400 a little nine hole makeover there, and the people who 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:59.320 go to that school love that school. They're like so 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:01.720 attached their school and so proud of it. And I'll 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:04.640 just run people say you did Swany, didn't you. I'm like, yeah, 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:06.920 that was not you know, in the pantheon of courses 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:09.480 that you mentioned, it doesn't get mentioned very often, but 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:12.720 you know, Rustic Canyon, Seoul Park, and Swani are ones 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:14.640 that people come up and say, thanks for doing that. 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:17.640 If you go out to Sweden's Cove, you should go 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.080 up to Swanee. It's not not much if you go 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:22.480 that far, you can go a little bit farther. So 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:27.320 with the rust of Canyon project, we've talked a lot 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:31.800 this week during this symposium about methods of building and 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:35.240 what the best practices for that are the theme of 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:39.720 the symposium was in house and large scale projects, and 0:10:39.760 --> 0:10:42.360 we learned about a number of different approaches to that. 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:47.679 For the Rustic Canyon project. This was really a design 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:50.800 build effort, wouldn't you say it was. 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:54.240 We had a project manager, we had basically hired then 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:57.480 our own crew in house. I think when we figured 0:10:57.480 --> 0:10:59.960 we tali died it all up. We moved seventeen thousand 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.640 cubic yards of dirt and it was basically with a 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:04.560 front end loader and a pickup. 0:11:04.760 --> 0:11:07.280 Could you compare that to like give people an idea 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:09.040 of how little that is. 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:13.560 Yeah, I mean it's minuscule. It's barely even shaping. You know, 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.240 we just did a golf course in Palm Springs where 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:18.160 we moved two million cubic yards of dirt, So I 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:21.160 mean you can in comparison that was the most rustic. 0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:24.800 Canyon was definitely the least. And so it was just, yeah, 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:28.160 it was a small crew. Some of them had golf experience, 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:30.400 some of them didn't. We had an irrigation contractor. But 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:32.319 it was sort of every day you show up and 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:35.800 there were fifteen guys out there, and today you're going 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:37.640 to drive this piece of equipment. Today you're going to 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.800 do this. And because it was in essence very minimal 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:45.079 earth moving and the shaping was really all we did it. 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:47.640 You know, the holes came together pretty quickly. 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.160 And part of that minimal approach, and if I can 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:53.680 use the term minimalism, it seems like it's a little 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.560 bit out of fashion. It was a little bit more 0:11:56.600 --> 0:12:00.360 in fashion and a little more cutting edge feeling when 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.880 you did the Rustic Canyon project. I believe this really 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:07.480 is a minimalist project. But it was minimalist for a reason, right, 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:11.280 I mean, there were a lot of environmental sensitivities around 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:14.600 this site, and so, you know, can you talk about 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:20.440 how your approach to your philosophy of architecture fit with 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:22.480 this kind of project. 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:25.080 I think early on, having worked for Tom Doak for 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:28.240 for four years, you know, he was the first architect 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:30.480 to be associated with minimalism. You know, Bill and Ben, 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:34.599 we're doing golf courses that were considered minimalist. Tom was 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:37.079 the one, I think who sort of introduced that into 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:41.000 the you know, the phraseology of lexic. 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.240 He wrote a minimalist manifesto, it was the whole thing. 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.000 So I think having been exposed to that and having 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:50.520 had all those conversations with Tom about how you build 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:54.640 minimalist golf courses, we set out at Rustic Canyon with 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:57.040 what we thought was a really good piece of ground 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.480 and didn't want to mess with it. I mean, I 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:04.400 think all architects look at pieces of ground and they 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:08.400 try to maximize the potential for them. Some architects see 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:11.960 potential in a two foot contour through the middle of 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:15.720 a fairway. Some architects don't, they miss that. Some architects 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:18.920 see the potential in a dry wash. Some architects look 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:22.880 at that as an environmental nightmare to have to deal with. 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:24.840 So I think what we looked at is how do 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:29.960 we maximize all the potential positives in that property before 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:32.559 we revert to moving dirt. You know, if you can 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:35.240 maximize all the potential, I think there we were probably 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:39.800 more patient having Jeff out in front identifying these things. Really, 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.959 I think lent itself to us being more minimalist on 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:45.760 that site than we might have otherwise been. So I 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:48.160 think all the stars were aligned. It was a very 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:51.920 low budget project, so that also helped to keep the 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:54.920 aspirations of moving a lot of dirt down. So I 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.679 think all of those things coming together on that particular 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:01.000 site lent themselves to that minimalist build. 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:03.640 So correct me if I'm wrong, But I think Rustic 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:08.040 Canyon was your first experience being an architect on a 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:09.479 municipal project. 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:11.760 Yes, right, yep. 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:17.120 And so how was it different working within that system 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.560 as opposed to working with a green committee or with 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:25.080 a particular client. Did it introduce any more complexities into 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:28.000 the equation that you then had to negotiate? 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:31.800 Not really, Because Craig Price was the he had gotten 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:34.080 the lease from the county. So once we were approved 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:36.880 and he was approved as the leaseholder, we didn't really 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:38.480 have to deal with the county very much. And I 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:42.560 think I don't know how to say this without saying it. 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:46.200 You know, California is not easy to get stuff done, 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.479 and I think the county, Ventura County, helped us dramatically 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:52.240 to get things through and to move them through in 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.280 a more timely fashion than would have might have been 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:58.360 the normal time frame in southern California. So I think 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:03.200 they were the aided us dramatically in getting it started. 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:05.880 But once we started, very little input. 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:12.760 So Rustic Canyon is owned by Ventura County. Another Ventura 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:19.040 County property is Saul Park, a few years after Rustic Canyon, 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:21.960 and there is a connection here involving Craig Price, whom 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:25.120 you mentioned. But a few years after Rustic Canyon, the 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.960 opportunity to do some major work at Seoul Park, another 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:33.040 municipal facility popped up. So could you take me through 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.720 how you got involved in this project and then what 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:36.720 the scope of it was. 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:41.040 Yeah, that was Mother Nature basically brought us to Seoul Park. 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:43.600 It was I can't remember exactly the years six or 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:47.720 seven where it was very heavy El Nino winter and 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:51.200 basically the golf course was just ravaged. I mean there's 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:55.640 a dry wash that runs through it and it flooded, 0:15:55.920 --> 0:15:58.800 tore all the bridges out that go across it, tore 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:01.000 a bunch of the greens apart. And at this point 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:03.160 in time, Craig had taken over the lease, and so 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:06.920 it became an emergency. Hey, we've got to get this fixed, 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:09.680 because right now, instead of eighteen holes we have, I 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:13.840 think there were maybe about eleven that were playable. So 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:16.760 and again here Ventura County a little bit to the 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:19.440 rescue and the Army Corps of Engineers, they passed an 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:24.000 emergency ordinance that allowed for these areas to be reclaimed. 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:26.440 So we were able to go back into what would 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:28.880 have been untouchable from a dry wash standpoint and go 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:32.200 and rebuild these golf holes, put them back together, and 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:35.280 in the process of doing so, we were asked to 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:37.560 kind of give our thoughts as to how we can 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:40.360 improve the design, how can we could make it more playable, 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:44.120 more interesting. Once again, Jeff was part of our team 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:45.960 up there, and once again we kind of looked at 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:48.680 the George Thomas playbook and tried to figure out how 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:51.479 can we do things along those lines that would maximize 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:55.480 the potential of Soul Park. Which Soul Park's setting is 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:57.560 just beautiful. You're tucked right up against the mountains. You've 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:00.840 got a much broader, wider rank or running through the 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:02.720 middle of it, as opposed to the one at Rustic Canyon, 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.679 which was a little bit narrower, and so there it 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:08.399 was an opportunity to play more along flank, along the 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:10.520 side of it, go across it, but then start to 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:14.800 introduce more bunkering, new green complexes. So it started off 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:18.640 as a let's put this place back together, and as 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:21.280 the momentum built, it became okay, what can we do 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:24.480 with the next toll? With the next toll? And I 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:26.679 think Tracy and I that was one of our favorite 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.760 summers living in OHI was nice. I mean, it was 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:32.679 really it was a special place and we enjoyed the 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.399 time that we got to spend there. And you know 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:37.359 the evolution of that place now it's no longer in 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:40.199 Craig price is, he's no longer the lease holder. But 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:44.240 I think it's one of those things where peep golfers 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.960 will go to discover fun. They'll go to discover a 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:50.040 good vibe, a good place to hang out. They'll go 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:54.879 to discover places where other golfers of similar mindset are. 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:58.440 You know, their skins games are legendary now where people 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:00.360 are just showing up and keep driving from all over 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.640 southern California to go and play and participate, and they're 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.040 hanging out after golf. And so it's become one of 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:10.280 these really kind of sleepy golf courses that now has 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:15.720 this wonderful undercurrent of serious golfers, serious architecture enthusiasts go 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:19.120 up there and and you get to play. You know, 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:22.960 you know, a golf course that has interest and architecture, 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:25.639 but it's municipal and it's you can play it for 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:27.480 it's very affordable. 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:31.520 It's become a hot spot right now. Soul Park is 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:35.840 the place to go if you're a golf enthusiast living 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:39.480 anywhere in the vicinity. Basically people drive up from Los 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:42.879 Angeles to play it and to be part of the 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.840 men's club out there and the and the various events 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:50.240 that they hold, and so it's you know, and for 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:54.120 the reason that it has really interesting architecture, I think 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.920 that is what's driving it. So that's where soul Park 0:18:56.960 --> 0:19:00.600 has gotten. I think it's worth being frank about what 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:04.440 happened immediately after your work there. After you and Jim 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:10.640 made the changes there, there was some pushback from various 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:16.800 long time constituents in the soul Park community. What was 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:17.959 your reaction to that. 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:21.320 Yeah, thanks, I'd forgotten about that. 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:23.040 I got to give you a tough. 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:25.560 One here and there, right, No, I mean it's true. 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:27.840 I mean you have players, and I think that's one 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.560 of the most difficult things to try to figure out 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:34.440 how to get right when it comes to municipal golf 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:38.080 is there are people who are part of the landscape 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:42.400 who love where they play, and you don't want them 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:46.040 to feel like they're just pushed aside, you know. And 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:47.639 all of a sudden, now all the cool kids are 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:49.480 showing up and the food trucks are showing up and 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:52.040 the beer as well, and it's just wait a second, 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:56.120 what about me? I'm now I don't enjoy this place anymore. 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:58.280 And I think there was honestly a little bit of 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:02.840 a pushback as it related to center line bunkering. You know, 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:04.960 what do you mean there's a bunker in the middle 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:07.399 of a hole? How you know? That's I hit it perfect, 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:09.159 That's right where I was supposed to go. So I 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:12.479 think there was and there was a little bit of 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:16.520 some In some ways it was easy for management to 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:20.920 cave versus fight for it because they were wanting income, 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:24.480 and they were wanting the basically all the revenue and 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:26.000 the people to show up. And if all of a 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:28.199 sudden you're getting a group of people who are not 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.679 happy about it, you know, they weren't thinking about all 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:33.639 the people who were happy. So it became a bit 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:35.679 of a battle, and it really was unfortunate how that 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:38.040 all shook out. But I think that's ultimately what led 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:41.639 to the current management group there, and they've embraced it. 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:43.280 In fact, they've asked us to come back in and 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:46.399 restore some of the things that were taken out after 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:50.920 the renovation of the golf course. But it's it really 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:52.679 is an important part. I think we're going to talk 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:56.159 a little bit about Maggie Hathaway later on in Los Angeles, 0:20:56.160 --> 0:21:00.159 but it was something that also happened at Swanya, Like 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:03.280 you're bringing that up, but you know, when you go 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:06.880 back someplace, there's a bit of nostalgia that you want 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:09.119 to have for it, and you want it to be recognizable. 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:11.199 You want it to be the place that I love 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:14.640 fell in love with, and when that's changed, people take 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:17.240 it very different ways. And so I think that's something 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:18.720 you know, We're going to obviously talk a lot with 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:22.680 the National Links Trust about how do we retain play, 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:25.320 how do we keep people there who have supported it 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:28.119 for a long period of time yet introduce new people 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:31.840 to it without dispossessing the people who've come to love it. 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:35.120 Well, how do you do that? Because you are really 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:38.439 good at this stuff. I know this from talking to 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:42.879 memberships where you've worked, you can negotiate these situations quite well. 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:46.399 Is there a similar approach or set of tactics that 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:52.160 you bring to speaking with conversing with the people who 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:56.080 play a public golf course where you're going to make 0:21:56.160 --> 0:21:57.000 some big changes. 0:21:57.440 --> 0:21:59.440 Yeah, I think a lot of it is listening early on, 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:02.640 is listening to the people who are involved in either 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:05.159 taking over management or who have played there for a 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:09.359 long period of time and get their sense. You know, 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:11.560 we're gonna talk about the park, Well, the park was closed, 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:13.800 so it was kind of hard for you know, there's 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:15.320 only one way to make it better was to get 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:17.159 it reopened, no matter what we did to it. And 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:19.680