Speaker 1: Welcome to NFL Daily's Top twenty five players of the
Speaker 1: last twenty five years. Yes, this is the first episode.
Speaker 1: It's going to be a six part series. I'm really
Speaker 1: excited about And there is no one I would rather
Speaker 1: start the series with than my friend Mina Kimes of ESPN.
Speaker 1: This is a big responsibility, Mina taking the first episode.
Speaker 2: Hello, I'm excited to do this. The players that are
Speaker 2: in this bunch are great. This is a great group.
Speaker 2: I mean, they're all great, that's the general premise of
Speaker 2: this entire thing, but they're really fun players to talk about.
Speaker 2: So I'm particularly excited to be twenty five through twenty one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a couple things I noticed putting the list together
Speaker 1: that it's backloaded, like the current players are more towards
Speaker 1: the back. Don't blame Mina or any of the future
Speaker 1: guests that are coming on the show. It is my list,
Speaker 1: but that they're coming on to give their impressions. And
Speaker 1: we have a lot of great guests. Kevin Harlan is
Speaker 1: going to be on the show coming up, your buddy,
Speaker 1: Nate Tice, Brian Baldinger, Steve Weis. It's going to be
Speaker 1: really great. Just a couple of little ground rules. Though,
Speaker 1: for the listeners out there, if they're curious, it was
Speaker 1: more about sustained greatness over like a three to five
Speaker 1: year period. Was like where I started, like, you're not
Speaker 1: going to be on this list if you only had
Speaker 1: one or two great years. That's almost a prerequisite. But
Speaker 1: it wasn't about longevity to me. It was like who
Speaker 1: was the very best and maybe longevity is a little
Speaker 1: bit of a tiebreaker.
Speaker 3: Do you think that's like a fair way to do it? Yeah?
Speaker 4: I do.
Speaker 2: I mean we're talking about especially when you're talking about
Speaker 2: top twenty five, it's tough, man. Yeah, you're gonna have
Speaker 2: to make some really difficult cuts and you're gonna have
Speaker 2: to set guidelines. I think around like, it's kind of
Speaker 2: like when we do general debates that we're like who's
Speaker 2: the greatest of all time? You have to take longevity
Speaker 2: into account. You can't just be like a guy at
Speaker 2: his peak. I actually think the player you're starting with
Speaker 2: is a great He really is. He really is perfect
Speaker 2: fodder for this exact question is exact debate because there's
Speaker 2: another player who he's constantly compared to, who I think
Speaker 2: is probably also on your list, and you're by starting
Speaker 2: with this player, you're making drawing a line in the sand,
Speaker 2: really and you're kind of it's a take.
Speaker 1: Honestly, it absolutely is, which means we should just get
Speaker 1: to it. But yes, he's on one side of the equation.
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, you're gonna find out. And a second
Speaker 1: on the other side, for instance, is maybe a guy
Speaker 1: like no Imdasamawa or something. And not that he was
Speaker 1: close to making this list at all, but for a
Speaker 1: three to four year period he was one of the
Speaker 1: coldest cornerbacks of the last twenty five years. Like, obviously
Speaker 1: he's not gonna make it because that's too short of
Speaker 1: an absolute peak. But this list is full of guys
Speaker 1: who had crazy high peaks.
Speaker 3: Larry Fitzgerald is not on this list, for instance.
Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil too much, but he's a
Speaker 1: guy when you look at it, not that he was
Speaker 1: a compiler, but a one first time All Pro or
Speaker 1: first team All Pro, like two second teams, his highs
Speaker 1: weren't quite as high.
Speaker 3: Let's just get the little list. Let's go to number
Speaker 3: twenty five.
Speaker 4: Number twenty five, Travis Kelcey Maholmes gets the shotgun snap
Speaker 4: pulps throws for the end.
Speaker 5: Zone to Kelsey Asting makes the catch touchdown.
Speaker 4: Travis Kelcey put a touchdown in.
Speaker 1: The back right corner of the in zone.
Speaker 5: Kansas City wins it forty two thirty six and over time.
Speaker 6: Patrick Mahomes back does get up the road middle Travis Kelcey,
Speaker 6: this dude's taking over and been dominant in the playoffs.
Speaker 4: When Mahomes throws doing they have a.
Speaker 5: One forty quarterback writing, I mean, this is Montane wife territory.
Speaker 1: I don't care what people call us.
Speaker 5: I know I'm back to back and I won three
Speaker 5: in whatever year.
Speaker 3: Y'all can call us the dynasty.
Speaker 1: You can call us whatever you guys want.
Speaker 5: I know we got it.
Speaker 7: Something more special than really what you've seen in the
Speaker 7: NFL is because the guys in his locker room, in
Speaker 7: the headcoach.
Speaker 1: It has been a wild dirty we have been on
Speaker 1: with Travis Kelcey.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I remember when he slips in the draft because of
Speaker 1: tests and stuff and underrated and comes out. He was
Speaker 1: older when he came out, twenty four years old. He
Speaker 1: didn't have his first thousand yard season un till he
Speaker 1: was twenty seven years old. And yet he is one
Speaker 1: of the most famous certainly and one of the defining players.
Speaker 1: I mean, you started this whole thing already saying I'm
Speaker 1: making a take. What do you think that take is
Speaker 1: putting him at twenty five?
Speaker 2: Well, I guess that take depends I'm making an assumption,
Speaker 2: which is that Rob Gronkowski comes later.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're in this list.
Speaker 2: Okay, So that's the take, right, Because this is the debate,
Speaker 2: and it's a debate, the debate between Gronkowski and Kelsey,
Speaker 2: and I think is a really good debate, and I
Speaker 2: think it's not one that's like there's an obviously glaring
Speaker 2: right answer. I think you can argue either side. It's
Speaker 2: about longevity, it's about dominance, it's about peaks, it's about
Speaker 2: postseason accomplishments. It's also about the nature of this particular position.
Speaker 2: I think that's the most important thing. Is when you're
Speaker 2: talking about who is better, who was greater, who was
Speaker 2: more dominant, you were also talking about, well, what are
Speaker 2: we expecting out of the tight end position?
Speaker 1: Aolute And yeah, his blocking obviously is not nearly what
Speaker 1: Rob Gronkowski's is. But I don't want I don't want
Speaker 1: to be comparing those two the whole time, because at
Speaker 1: first he wasn't even on my list, and then I
Speaker 1: started thinking about, yeah he was well because I'm thinking
Speaker 1: about absolute dominance.
Speaker 3: Who are the best?
Speaker 1: But it's crazy the Hall of famers that are not
Speaker 1: making this list. I mean there are there are a
Speaker 1: lot of them. This is a it's a tough list.
Speaker 1: But for first team All pros three seconds. He's on
Speaker 1: the All two thousand and tens team for the Hall
Speaker 1: of Fame that they put out. He has the numbers
Speaker 1: like most yards, most playoff touchdowns now, like third in
Speaker 1: receiving yards among tight ends. So the numbers are all
Speaker 1: there in terms of counting stats, and I just think
Speaker 1: his peak wasn't like as high as some of the
Speaker 1: guys higher on this list. But it is ridiculous, meana,
Speaker 1: how many defining moments he's had. And it's because he's
Speaker 1: been in the playoffs so long, but it's because he
Speaker 1: finished those games that catch you.
Speaker 3: Heard to start.
Speaker 1: It was the Divisional round, maybe the best game of
Speaker 1: this decade that he finishes in the overtime against Buffalo.
Speaker 1: He's had like so many walkoffs, including against the Chargers.
Speaker 1: We might hurt hear that one a little later, like
Speaker 1: him beating Kyle Hamilton in the AFC Championship just a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago. The walk, Like, he's had so
Speaker 1: many absolute big moments and he's just been incredibly consistent, and.
Speaker 3: He had to make this list.
Speaker 1: I talked to our friend Nick right because I was
Speaker 1: thinking about Tony Gonzalez because his all pros and his
Speaker 1: numbers are just outrageous. But I think at his peak,
Speaker 1: Kelsey was ultimately better, and obviously he deserves to be here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of thoughts on Traus Kelsey. First of all,
Speaker 2: I think because of the comparison to Gronk and because
Speaker 2: of who he is a disappointing career his career, we
Speaker 2: forget he was an okay blocker. He wasn't like he
Speaker 2: was never as dominant as Gronk, and that is a
Speaker 2: huge part of the argument for Gronk if one wants
Speaker 2: to make that argument, but he wasn't bad, I just
Speaker 2: I want to throw that out there. He still isn't
Speaker 2: actually that bad. He just gets used differently, And a
Speaker 2: lot of the way he gets used has to do
Speaker 2: with the fact that he has not been surrounded by
Speaker 2: world beaters outside of Tyreek Hill. I think that also
Speaker 2: bears mentioning this offense has been run through, has run
Speaker 2: through Travis Kelcey at so many points in so many
Speaker 2: big games, and certainly since Tyreek Hill left since then,
Speaker 2: and that's not something you see very often. A lot
Speaker 2: of his usage is because of that. It's born out
Speaker 2: of necessity. I would also argue, and this is something
Speaker 2: I would say is a little bit is if you
Speaker 2: weren't to make a case for him over Gronk, he
Speaker 2: to me, Greg is the single best zone coverage beater
Speaker 2: maybe of our lifetime. Maybe that's a little bit too rich.
Speaker 2: We think about some of the receivers, but certainly amongst tight.
Speaker 1: Ends, no question amongst tight ends. And you're right, I
Speaker 1: would have to think about that list. And that's why
Speaker 1: he was a tough one for me of where to
Speaker 1: put him, Like is he high enough? He's one of
Speaker 1: only two tight ends on this list. I don't mind
Speaker 1: spoiling like that is his trademark. And you saying how
Speaker 1: his usage went up, like his best season was twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: that that cursed season with no crowds or anything, that
Speaker 1: he was just going crazy. He actually got a few
Speaker 1: Offensive Player of the Year votes that that was one metric,
Speaker 1: Like was he ever at the super top where he's
Speaker 1: winning those sorts of awards, not so much, but that year,
Speaker 1: you know, fourteen hundred yards, like over one hundred catches
Speaker 1: and just totally dominant. And to me, he's had a
Speaker 1: better career than Antonio Gates.
Speaker 3: He's the key player other.
Speaker 1: Than Patrick Mahomes in you know, the best dynasty that
Speaker 1: we've seen other than the Patriots dynasty, not just the
Speaker 1: last twenty five years, but one of them in the
Speaker 1: history of the NFL. And the thing that's crazy that
Speaker 1: you pointed out, Mina is he's actually gotten better as
Speaker 1: he's lost juice. One of the fun things I've gotten
Speaker 1: to do with this exercise. I just go back watch
Speaker 1: some old tape or watch some old highlights, and you know,
Speaker 1: he's ripping off eighty yard screen passes in twenty seventeen,
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. You're like, oh, yeah, Travis Kelcey used to
Speaker 1: have so much juice. And yet because he has a
Speaker 1: ridiculous mind meld, maybe the best since Montana to Jerry Rice,
Speaker 1: as Mahomes to Kelsey, he's actually gotten better as he's
Speaker 1: gotten older.
Speaker 2: I do like that, Like, you can't really punish eitherism
Speaker 2: for the quarterback because they both played with like the
Speaker 2: two greatest quarterbacks, right, So yeah, it's not like, well,
Speaker 2: Travis Kelsey got to play with Patrick Mahobes. I swear
Speaker 2: to God, I'm not gonna only talk about Trales Kelsey
Speaker 2: do the lens of Ropper Gronkowski, but Gronk got to
Speaker 2: play with But I think right now he is in
Speaker 2: that phase, the one last job phase of his career
Speaker 2: where all they need is for him to be big
Speaker 2: in huge moments in certain games, the same way that
Speaker 2: Gronk was in the infamous RAM super Bowl victory on
Speaker 2: that one last drive. Yeah, I think with Kelsey, like,
Speaker 2: I absolutely think he belongs on Listless. Yes, let's start there,
Speaker 2: because it's just like the TI, he really marries all
Speaker 2: of it, longevity, peaks, playoff, accomplishments, big.
Speaker 3: Games, random reality shows.
Speaker 2: That's the other thing is like watching those clip like
Speaker 2: because he's played for so long at this point and
Speaker 2: as his persona has evolved so much, it's kind of
Speaker 2: like his girlfriend's eras, like we do have Travis Kelce's. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's that, by the way, is all I know about Ty.
Speaker 2: I've reached the limits of the slip jokes. That I
Speaker 2: can make, but like, there have been points in his
Speaker 2: career where he's been used in different plays where he's
Speaker 2: where he's played different roles in that offense, where he
Speaker 2: has sounded different he talks, and it's like he to me, like,
Speaker 2: you really can't tell the story of the NFL over
Speaker 2: the last ten years without him. Yeah, I just spectacular
Speaker 2: football player.
Speaker 1: That It was part of my reasoning. Not only that
Speaker 1: he was on a lot of these guys were going
Speaker 1: to be on. Who were the most painful to leave off?
Speaker 1: When I had him off first, I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's too painful and Chiefs fans are going to want
Speaker 1: to hear this, But there were there were a lot
Speaker 1: of like Chiefs that were right. I thought about Chris Jones,
Speaker 1: I thought about Tony Gonzalez.
Speaker 3: They were among the first.
Speaker 1: People to be left offices that I was like, it
Speaker 1: would be too painful to leave Kelsey, who, yes, not
Speaker 1: only entertain millions, including the namesake of the studio, Chris
Speaker 1: Westling and Lakeisha Westling were hardcore fans of Catching Kelsey
Speaker 1: at the time, the only two people I know that
Speaker 1: were watching every single episode. But yes, like authored so
Speaker 1: many moments that I can remember, let's actually look back
Speaker 1: because one thing I found looking through like his greatest
Speaker 1: plays in his greatest games, so many of them came
Speaker 1: against the Chargers. It's just outrageous that I just want
Speaker 1: to play one of them.
Speaker 6: Get all number three on the all time Chiefs touchdown
Speaker 6: catch list. Would one to night now just one catch
Speaker 6: shay otis Taylor. Here is Kelsey, still going, still going, Kelsey,
Speaker 6: good night, touchdown Chiefs.
Speaker 1: Winning the thing I remembered more, not that I should have,
Speaker 1: but he has so many good after the catch plays
Speaker 1: where he just puts that foot in the dirt and
Speaker 1: gets everyone to go one way, and you don't think
Speaker 1: of him like that.
Speaker 3: And half of them are against the Chargers.
Speaker 1: I mean, he has two game winning touchdowns against the Chargers.
Speaker 1: He has one hundred and ninety yard game against the Chargers.
Speaker 1: I believe that that was part of that, Like he
Speaker 1: so many of them was just like breaking the rest
Speaker 1: of the AFC's hearts, especially the Charger.
Speaker 2: It's funny because I feel like Derwin James on the
Speaker 2: Chargers has been thought of as one of the dudes
Speaker 2: you can count on to try to handle Travis Kelsey.
Speaker 2: I think that's the other thing that's so unique about him.
Speaker 2: Whenever we've talked about the Chiefs over the last few
Speaker 2: years is certainly when during the Tyree Kill era, it
Speaker 2: was a lot about how you handle that level of
Speaker 2: speed and it was game tilting. But I know as
Speaker 2: an analyst, every time I've talked about this team and
Speaker 2: playing them and the defenses, it always starts with, Okay,
Speaker 2: who's on Kelsey? What is your game plan? What is
Speaker 2: your approach to him? Are you comfortable playing zone coverage?
Speaker 2: The question you ask always about the Chiefs, right like
Speaker 2: do you have the capability to man up this team?
Speaker 2: And if you do, who's on Kelsey? Like I just
Speaker 2: I think that's a when I think about like great
Speaker 2: players and whether or not they qualify for a list
Speaker 2: like this. From my not to be solipsistic perspective, I
Speaker 2: think through, Okay, when I'm thinking about this team and
Speaker 2: their games, this is the first person I think of,
Speaker 2: how do you stop them? And he could make that
Speaker 2: same argument for Chris Jones, by the way, who I
Speaker 2: do think was probably a tough cut.
Speaker 1: It was he was an extremely tough cut, And like
Speaker 1: I said, there's a lot of Hall of Famers not
Speaker 1: on this list, So It's tough to make those cuts,
Speaker 1: but I'm glad Kelsey is on. I'm also glad I
Speaker 1: have our next guy.
Speaker 4: Number twenty four, Terrell Owens.
Speaker 5: Terrel Owens down the sideline, getting the first down and
Speaker 5: continuing richeld move backing sow Owens Loo's a big run
Speaker 5: all the.
Speaker 4: Way under the XIL for the forty nine touchdown.
Speaker 5: Another seventy five yard play, this time terror Owards.
Speaker 4: Doing it after the catch, throw it and doing see
Speaker 4: you off the play.
Speaker 5: Rolling right the touchdown, ter Olands.
Speaker 6: Theren's are going right to the center of the stadium.
Speaker 8: Rug to the Dallas Cowboys all going yah, see it
Speaker 8: touchdowns again.
Speaker 4: Heading from midfield there he goes.
Speaker 6: He's there's gonna be a penalty on George t because
Speaker 6: he's gonna clock them, so ow it's just gonna show
Speaker 6: him up again.
Speaker 3: And Tik just said, the heck with it. This game's
Speaker 3: over anyway. I'm just gonna take a cheap shot at him.
Speaker 3: We are wrapping.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that little celebration ofterrell Owens with him sleeping on
Speaker 1: the football. He could make this list just off the celebrations.
Speaker 1: You kind of forget how many of them were so iconic. Uh,
Speaker 1: you got the popcorn eating the popcorn. You have the
Speaker 1: Sharpie signing the ball, you have the Seahawks, you have
Speaker 1: the pomp Poms grabbing and doing the pomp Pom dance.
Speaker 3: You have him, of course doing.
Speaker 1: Holding his arms up to the sky at the old
Speaker 1: Texas Stadium. It's it's just amazing and five first team
Speaker 1: All pros kind of what you imagine Mina when you
Speaker 1: think of at least back in the day, there's not
Speaker 1: as many of these guys of like, what would you
Speaker 1: want your number one to look like? Six three, two
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty five pounds and just fast as hell.
Speaker 2: I went down a rabbit hole watching too highlights when
Speaker 2: I saw he was on your list, And one of
Speaker 2: the highlights was just every catch he made against the
Speaker 2: Chicago Bears in the record breaking game that I think
Speaker 2: was Brandon Brushall Brooke that if I remember, yeah catches, yeah,
Speaker 2: and it's it's a great mix of just you know,
Speaker 2: slants and hitches, but then also some couple deep balls
Speaker 2: as well, and you really get a full sense of
Speaker 2: like his unbelievable skill set, which really was. I mean,
Speaker 2: he was good a lot of things, but at that size,
Speaker 2: the speed the breakaway speed. First of all, he was
Speaker 2: really physical, really strong, good contested catch guy. Some of
Speaker 2: his most famous catches are like that. But then like
Speaker 2: the breakaway speed and movement abilities he had at his
Speaker 2: size were so rare, it's like you're like you put it.
Speaker 2: I mean there's another. I'm sure Calvia Johnson's going to
Speaker 2: come later, but but it does feel like he was
Speaker 2: like built in a lob to be a true X.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a little different, like better after the catch even
Speaker 1: than Calvin Johnson, and but still had like the mobility.
Speaker 1: And I know he had some drops certainly along the
Speaker 1: way and wasn't like as great a separator, say as
Speaker 1: Antonio Brown, who was a tough cut from this list
Speaker 1: ultimately because I just just on the field watching him.
Speaker 3: He was among the very best I ever saw.
Speaker 1: But he's a guy who, till the end of his
Speaker 1: career was just a big play machine. He averaged fourteen
Speaker 1: point eight yards per catch for his whole career that
Speaker 1: like never fell off. He's third all time in receiving yards.
Speaker 1: He was on the All Decade team. He was timed
Speaker 1: very well for this list his breakout season, and that
Speaker 1: was part of it. I did not consider any nineteen
Speaker 1: nineties seasons. So even if you started in the nineties,
Speaker 1: like a Randy Moss for instance, that wasn't part of
Speaker 1: the equation. And his breakout season to was two thousand
Speaker 1: and five first team All Pros And man, he didn't
Speaker 1: have like a ton of playoff moments. He had he
Speaker 1: had to catch too, certainly with the forty nine ers
Speaker 1: when he was young in his career. But you remember
Speaker 1: that performance he had against the Eagles where Belichick has
Speaker 1: said many times how he assumed to is not going
Speaker 1: to be in that game or not gonna look like
Speaker 1: to because he's coming off of a broken leg, and
Speaker 1: he goes nine for one twenty two and almost kind
Speaker 1: of carries them to a Super Bowl win all by
Speaker 1: himself while he was a member of the Eagles.
Speaker 2: The was the finger game before that was after that,
Speaker 2: right when he had the plate in his finger and
Speaker 2: he came back and played. And that's the other thing
Speaker 2: we got to talk about with him. Yeah, this is
Speaker 2: the unbelievable toughness, which and it's the other thing about him,
Speaker 2: like just like the perfect I talk about him being
Speaker 2: like the perfect wide receiver, lab built ride receiver. The
Speaker 2: personality is like when people think about wide receivers better
Speaker 2: or worse, and I say better for better or worse
Speaker 2: because you know, was he always the best teammate? No,
Speaker 2: did he rebul the wrong way? Sure, but holy smokes,
Speaker 2: his dude was tough and was a competitor. I mean,
Speaker 2: like some of the injuries that he overcame to play,
Speaker 2: I feel like, maybe more so than he has some
Speaker 2: of the most iconic coming off in injury games of
Speaker 2: any player in NFL history. And it is funny to
Speaker 2: me that like he contained multitudes in that way, right,
Speaker 2: Like we think of this like diva personality, but then
Speaker 2: he was tough as nails. I don't know, he was
Speaker 2: just kind of an interesting mix of contradictions.
Speaker 1: Yes, let's let's listen just to a little cut up
Speaker 1: we have of some t o trashtock.
Speaker 5: I know you don't know me to sound put them
Speaker 5: a sound in a way because I love me.
Speaker 2: Tell me I.
Speaker 1: Can hit me.
Speaker 3: Oh, y'all won't do what you can stuff.
Speaker 1: He is an all time NFL Films sound effects guy,
Speaker 1: like an all time NFL miked up guy. There's a
Speaker 1: clip on YouTube from NFL Films with just thirteen minutes
Speaker 1: of him on miked up and it's so good. And
Speaker 1: one thing you do get from it is you're reminded,
Speaker 1: like he was a team captain more than a few
Speaker 1: times in his career, he was known as like one
Speaker 1: of the if not the hardest workers on his team.
Speaker 1: He learned literally from Jerry Rice, and he talks about that,
Speaker 1: not only about how to work, but how to look
Speaker 1: good on the field. He talks about that a lot,
Speaker 1: and you just kind of think about him running over
Speaker 1: all these guys and running past him, and it's just like,
Speaker 1: that's what you want on your team. And yes, it
Speaker 1: ended up sour at the end in a few places,
Speaker 1: you know, in Dallas and San Francisco, like when it
Speaker 1: went bad, it went bad. But the vast majority of
Speaker 1: those years, especially the first couple of years in each spot,
Speaker 1: even into Cincinnati at the end of his career, when
Speaker 1: he's with Ocho Sinkle, he's still putting up a thousand
Speaker 1: yards like he gave you everything he had. And so
Speaker 1: that was why I didn't want to knock him too
Speaker 1: badly for all that.
Speaker 2: Well speaking, I mean, I mean, I have to bet
Speaker 2: we run an NFL podcast, but I coverring this up.
Speaker 2: He's not in the NFL one hundred. Did you know that?
Speaker 2: I did not know that he was not, So then
Speaker 2: I fell did the one hundred greatest Players of all time?
Speaker 2: I think they did it a few years ago, five
Speaker 2: years ago, and uh uh, let's see why. Let me
Speaker 2: find the headline. He called it despicable and he was
Speaker 2: left off, and like, I'm on his side. I mean,
Speaker 2: come on, dude, he's third old time and receiving yards,
Speaker 2: touchdown catches top ten and it's not just a long
Speaker 2: He's not just a compiler, dominant seasons, one hundred yard games.
Speaker 2: It's insane that he wasn't on that list. I'm just
Speaker 2: gonna say, it's crazy.
Speaker 3: Receivers the toughest position.
Speaker 1: So I think making this list okay when you're just
Speaker 1: thinking about the last twenty five years in no particular order.
Speaker 1: Julio Jones like is he like his peak was just
Speaker 1: absolutely outrageous. Antonio Brown, he used to get into an
Speaker 1: argument that at his very peak, I don't know if
Speaker 1: anyone was any better. These are guys that are not
Speaker 1: on the list. Larry Fitzgerald, like I mentioned, who's just
Speaker 1: stacked up numbers like not on the list.
Speaker 3: It was very hard to separate wide receivers.
Speaker 1: But ultimately, yeah, the combination for me of just he
Speaker 1: was a little bit uncoverable because even though he had
Speaker 1: those drops at times, he was such a good contested
Speaker 1: catch guy that like, even if you could cover my
Speaker 1: Revis had some good battles with him later in his career,
Speaker 1: even if you could cover him, like it didn't really
Speaker 1: matter if he was playing his best.
Speaker 2: The Catch Tube being the perfect example of that. I
Speaker 2: remember growing up when I first got access to like YouTube,
Speaker 2: just watching that over and over and trying to like
Speaker 2: understand it. It haven't right because it just doesn't just
Speaker 2: like what wait the ball, Like how is this getting through?
Speaker 2: And how is he winning for it? And yeah, it
Speaker 2: was just yeah, remarkable. I was asking just one quick aside.
Speaker 2: I was while I was watching Highlights, I was texting
Speaker 2: a little bit with you. Mentioned Nate Tice and Danny
Speaker 2: about who is the closest to him in this current generation,
Speaker 2: and the consensus was AJ Brown is the player who's
Speaker 2: most similar to t O, which I think is accurate.
Speaker 1: I think that's right, especially this version of AJ Brown,
Speaker 1: like where he is right now, where we just did
Speaker 1: a Receivers episode and we had him third overall because
Speaker 1: I think he's such a complete receiver. I think Too
Speaker 1: also warmed up to that spot too, as you mentioned,
Speaker 1: like the catch Too, that was his big breakout in
Speaker 1: San Francisco. Like, it's funny hearing them talk about him
Speaker 1: early in his career, like he didn't speak, he was
Speaker 1: very afraid to talk to the media. It was like
Speaker 1: this shy guy until he wasn't. But yeah, Marvin Harrison
Speaker 1: was another guy. Tyreek Kill was another guy that got
Speaker 1: cut off this list. Marvin Harrison somewhat got cut off
Speaker 1: from the ninety two thousand thing. But it's crazy how
Speaker 1: hard it was to make it. So it just shows
Speaker 1: you what kind of career Too had. Let's take a
Speaker 1: quick break and we will be back with the next
Speaker 1: guy on the list. Back on NFL Daily Best twenty
Speaker 1: five players of the last twenty five years. And yeah,
Speaker 1: as we go through some of these players, I will
Speaker 1: be mentioning who didn't get off the list.
Speaker 3: I almost feel bad not saying it.
Speaker 1: It's like Justin Jefferson and Jamar Chase, they are building
Speaker 1: up that resume, but they're getting cut off basically because
Speaker 1: they haven't been in the NFL long enough.
Speaker 3: Unlike our next.
Speaker 4: Guy, Number twenty three, TJ WAT.
Speaker 6: Sixty yards of offense for the Falcons since halftime Man.
Speaker 4: Cousins is sacked.
Speaker 6: Guess who TJ WAT put in an exclamation on this one.
Speaker 5: Big rush Hey kJ On has that suck.
Speaker 4: Unbelievable. TJ W comes around and.
Speaker 3: Makes a sack.
Speaker 2: Favorite pass rushler to watch. I mean, I have to say, TJ.
Speaker 4: What shoe string sick?
Speaker 3: From the master himself.
Speaker 4: TJ continues to run rough shot woop, Newton gets hit,
Speaker 4: ball is out. That's it in trouble periods.
Speaker 2: TJ rock.
Speaker 6: He is now the Steelers franchise all time leader in
Speaker 6: that category.
Speaker 1: The single most surprising player to make this list for
Speaker 1: me in terms of I did not expect to be
Speaker 1: putting him on when I started the list. He was
Speaker 1: not even that close until I really started thinking about
Speaker 1: the resume. Defensive Player of the Year Top four in
Speaker 1: the voting four straight years, the last four years, four
Speaker 1: all pros. The most sacks since he's entered the league,
Speaker 1: the most forced fumbles by far since he's entered the league,
Speaker 1: the most tackles for loss since he's entered the league,
Speaker 1: the most sacks in his first eight seasons. Other than
Speaker 1: Reggie White and DeMarcus where single season sack record led
Speaker 1: the league in sacks three times, and I just thought about, like,
Speaker 1: what are we talking about here? I'm talking about players
Speaker 1: at the very top of their game. Even though I
Speaker 1: feel a little lower than consensus on TJ. Watt in general,
Speaker 1: I realize, like, not only is he a first ballot
Speaker 1: Hall of Famer, but he deserves to make this list.
Speaker 3: What do you think?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it kind of sneaks up on you how dominant
Speaker 2: the numbers are. And we know, oh well, whenever we
Speaker 2: do like we're the best three pass rushers in the NFL,
Speaker 2: it's always TG Watt, Mouse Garrett and Blank Michael Parsons
Speaker 2: right now, right, But I think you don't think of
Speaker 2: him as like historically dominant until you look at what
Speaker 2: you just described, the idea of that he has led
Speaker 2: the NFL three times in sacks, twice enforced fumbles, that
Speaker 2: he's reached such insane sack totals. It's kind of one
Speaker 2: those things where you really have to take a step
Speaker 2: back and realize how incredibly dominant he's been, which is
Speaker 2: I think I'll throw something out. Do you feel like
Speaker 2: maybe not he's that he's overlooked, But it seems so unbelievable.
Speaker 2: JJ Watt could have a brother just right, like the
Speaker 2: JJ Watt who his peaks were so high that his
Speaker 2: brother came in and you were and you were like, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, it's JJ Wat's brother. That he became what
Speaker 2: he came seems so unlikely. Greg, maybe that plays into
Speaker 2: it a little bit.
Speaker 3: I think so. I mean, you know, who agrees with
Speaker 3: you the entire NFL?
Speaker 1: How did this guy go thirtieth in the draft, Because
Speaker 1: for so many years all anyone said about JJ Watt was.
Speaker 3: Like, how did he fall so far in the draft?
Speaker 1: I know he was like he's a you know, walk
Speaker 1: on and he had a different sort of career. He's
Speaker 1: like a late bloomer at Wisconsin. But it's like he's
Speaker 1: two ninety five and the biggest, freakiest athlete with like
Speaker 1: the best motor you've ever seen, and then had you know,
Speaker 1: a first ballot Hall of Fame season. Obviously he is
Speaker 1: going to be on this list coming up. And then
Speaker 1: the exact same thing happened mean with d J Watt.
Speaker 1: Just knowing like what happened with JJ and somehow that
Speaker 1: it's like in them they we used the phrase like
Speaker 1: they're built different. Like, so Watts apparently really are built different.
Speaker 1: How did TJ. Watt get to thirtieth and then be
Speaker 1: this big of a seal for the Steelers of all teams?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I guess, you know, genetics and also
Speaker 2: just work ethic and technique. I mean, that's the thing
Speaker 2: about TJ. Watt similar to JJ. But to focus on
Speaker 2: TJ for a second, just such a complete player. I
Speaker 2: think that's if you know, if I had to summarize
Speaker 2: him in one word, it would be complete. He's so
Speaker 2: good at everything. He's so good. Obviously, he is very
Speaker 2: technically refined and fun to watch pass rusher, and that
Speaker 2: is something he kind of has only gotten better at
Speaker 2: over time as he's you know, added more to his repertoire.
Speaker 2: He wins with speed, he wins with power. He wins
Speaker 2: with speed to power. He's got great inside moves, like
Speaker 2: he's just really really really smart. He's seen it all
Speaker 2: and then he finishes, which is how you get the
Speaker 2: high sack totals. But he's also a fantastic run defender
Speaker 2: that matters if we're talking about like who are the
Speaker 2: greatest of their generation. He's good in coverage, he's a
Speaker 2: good moments coverage, he's read the quarterback, and he's just
Speaker 2: he's just really really complete Greg. And I think when
Speaker 2: you if you were able to hit that level, some
Speaker 2: of it is nurture. Not to say that j Watt
Speaker 2: and TG Wat's mom is over this, but like, clearly
Speaker 2: these guys love ball and love studying ball, and that
Speaker 2: has factored in.
Speaker 1: They've got that dog at him and they're always you're
Speaker 1: always looking for intangibles, and it's tough to really evaluate that.
Speaker 1: But I really do think like the fact that he
Speaker 1: was jj Watt's brothers should have gotten him drafted higher
Speaker 1: because because there is clearly something about how you can
Speaker 1: improve at the NFL level that that they haven't helped
Speaker 1: to master.
Speaker 3: And yeah, it is. It is the big plays.
Speaker 1: It is the knack over and over and over to
Speaker 1: have game winning plays like it. Once it happens like
Speaker 1: a few times, you're almost like, is this a little
Speaker 1: fluky that he's getting all these force fumble Like, like
Speaker 1: I said, he leads the NFL and forced fumbles, Uh,
Speaker 1: since he entered the league. Is it a little fluky
Speaker 1: that like his best plays keep coming at the end
Speaker 1: of these games. It's like at a certain point you
Speaker 1: have to just accept like, no, that that is not fluky,
Speaker 1: just just you know, thinking a few He had a
Speaker 1: game against the Ravens where he called game on Lamar
Speaker 1: Jackson on a fourth down sack. He had the game
Speaker 1: last year against the Falcons where he essentially called game
Speaker 1: against then one. Right, Yeah, he essentially called game on
Speaker 1: our boy Gino Smith in that Sunday night.
Speaker 2: I remember that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he has like a four sack game, you know,
Speaker 1: he he's just had like when he goes big, he
Speaker 1: goes so big and at the biggest moments, And I
Speaker 1: do think that's that's how you get defined as like
Speaker 1: one of the greatest of the greats.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like anyone on this list has to
Speaker 2: have taken over a game or taken a game games, right,
Speaker 2: but bo, you know, both the all of the guys
Speaker 2: we've talked about thus far, you would put in that category.
Speaker 2: And with a pass rusher, that's like a really high
Speaker 2: bar because it doesn't happen that often. And there's probably
Speaker 2: like three or four guys in the league right now
Speaker 2: where you can say I can point to a few
Speaker 2: times where that's happened, And yeah, certainly it's been TJ.
Speaker 3: Wild.
Speaker 1: There's there's something cool too about that he is like
Speaker 1: the ed Rusher of the Pittsburgh Steelers, that he's continuing
Speaker 1: that you know, tradition for that team.
Speaker 3: But he's the next and the greatest.
Speaker 1: And the reason why he wasn't high on my list
Speaker 1: at first is I think I was a little biased
Speaker 1: towards the players.
Speaker 3: That are in the middle of their prime.
Speaker 1: I mentioned before that like Justin Jefferson and Chase just
Speaker 1: felt like just sure, if they had one or two
Speaker 1: more years, like they really might make it. But seeing
Speaker 1: you know, Wat's been in the league by now eight years,
Speaker 1: and so why I started comparing them and you compare
Speaker 1: his resume and here's some other guys. I'm just curious
Speaker 1: your thoughts, like like a Kaleis Campbell, for instance, who
Speaker 1: was All Proof Football Reference All twenty tens team, who
Speaker 1: had a second place at a Defensive Player of the Year.
Speaker 3: Jared Allen who's in the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 1: Jason Taylor, who you know was a second team All
Speaker 1: two thousands is in the Hall of Fame. But I
Speaker 1: don't think, actually, when I looked at it, that his
Speaker 1: highest of highs were as high as t J.
Speaker 3: Watt.
Speaker 1: Dwight Freeney was probably my toughest omission where his peak
Speaker 1: maybe wasn't quite as long, but he was such a
Speaker 1: good player. But those guys, like, none of them had
Speaker 1: a defensive player of the year like top four type
Speaker 1: of run that that TJ.
Speaker 3: Watt had.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you can probably. I mean TJ. Wat's
Speaker 2: been like top one to three for.
Speaker 3: Four years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, at least.
Speaker 3: In some other years as well, where he wasn't that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, none of the guys you mentioned I would put
Speaker 2: over him, So I think that's fair. I am curious
Speaker 2: now to see how high that another guy who i'd talked, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't want to. I don't want you to spoiler.
Speaker 1: Oh it's okay, it's good. It's a good tease for
Speaker 1: for the rest of us. Speaking of let's talk about
Speaker 1: a player that I know you will enjoy discussing number.
Speaker 4: Twenty two, Walter Jones.
Speaker 5: Let's be anything on the way head with me. I
Speaker 5: want you to come in, you know, and try to
Speaker 5: attack him. It's an honor to join Steve Larger at
Speaker 5: quarter as Kennedy, I'm going to hear to rush up.
Speaker 3: A feeling that tell me what w.
Speaker 4: Christer Jones get the crown one at.
Speaker 5: The third player to represent the Sea.
Speaker 4: Yak fronchise, He's steal the Bess.
Speaker 3: Walton is still to Bess and the twelfth man.
Speaker 6: What a great push by that left side of the
Speaker 6: Sea Yawks offensive line.
Speaker 1: Oh, Walter Jones, big Walt, he could be even higher
Speaker 1: on the list, Mina, but I wanted to hear you
Speaker 1: talk about your Seahawks. I mean, you were very young
Speaker 1: when Walter Jones was at his speaking yeah, for our
Speaker 1: for our audio listeners.
Speaker 3: For instance.
Speaker 1: If you're young, you heard that clip, h It was
Speaker 1: DeMarcus Ware asking tell me where Walter Jones is, so
Speaker 1: that there's like game recognized game, A Hall of Fame player,
Speaker 1: just absolutely fearful.
Speaker 3: And worried about what Walter Jones was gonna do.
Speaker 2: I think I was drafted when I was in maybe
Speaker 2: fifth or sixth grade, so it wasn't that young. Well,
Speaker 2: but then I would say he peaked for so long,
Speaker 2: so it was, you know, he My point is that
Speaker 2: I was in high school when he was great. I
Speaker 2: was the beginning of college. He was still. I mean,
Speaker 2: he hit something very rare. Although I guess while and Kelsey.
Speaker 2: Interesting continuity here, one player, one team that great, you're
Speaker 2: certainly more likely to stay on one team to where
Speaker 2: to even begin. I was waiting for the block. It
Speaker 2: doesn't have a cool nickname, but the two thousand and
Speaker 2: five NFC Championship game.
Speaker 1: Talk about it. Play it, we got it, but you
Speaker 1: could talk over it, So tell us about.
Speaker 3: It a little bit.
Speaker 1: It's against the Panthers NFC Championship two thousand and five.
Speaker 2: I would contend, Yeah, there we go. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: Mike Rucker rip. That man had a family one of
Speaker 2: the single most dominant run blocks by left tackle in
Speaker 2: the history of the sport right there, and he's taken him.
Speaker 1: For a ride and he said as much too. He
Speaker 1: I saw an interview with him that he did. And
Speaker 1: that's a play going to the weak side where yeah,
Speaker 1: the defense man is on his outside shoulder, so he
Speaker 1: has to get to the inside and block a two
Speaker 1: hundred and ninety pounds man and he does it twenty
Speaker 1: five yards down the field and it's part of one
Speaker 1: of the best his feet. Sorry to no, please please
Speaker 1: go on about what Big Waltz meant to you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that play, so again, like if you what what
Speaker 2: was so remarkable about this and maybe this is if
Speaker 2: we're talking about Walter Jones and what made him great,
Speaker 2: because he was really good at everything. He's a man
Speaker 2: that size shouldn't have feet that moved that quick, and
Speaker 2: you can really see that on that play. Like sometimes
Speaker 2: you know, when a guy's like block, it's just like
Speaker 2: he's it's just power and he's just nasty and he's
Speaker 2: just kind of like a snowplow, you know, moving the
Speaker 2: guy along. That's not what Walter Jones looked like. Like
Speaker 2: his feet looked like a tight end or something out there.
Speaker 2: It makes no sense. And that was his calling card, Greg.
Speaker 2: It was he was so light on his feet and
Speaker 2: so unbelievably athletic at his size. I think he ran
Speaker 2: like a four six forty famously. I think he played
Speaker 2: a little tight end in college or maybe the beginning
Speaker 2: of college or something, so he had that background. But
Speaker 2: it was just very rare and very unusual, and it
Speaker 2: wasn't even I mean, he was an unbelievable past protector.
Speaker 2: He just never seemed to get taken by surprise or
Speaker 2: rattled again. A lot of that had to do with
Speaker 2: the lightness of his feet, you know, I'm sure you
Speaker 2: guys have some stats on this. He gave up so
Speaker 2: few sacks and so little pressure over the course of
Speaker 2: so many years, it was unbelievable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so's it's fifty seven hundred plays in his career,
Speaker 1: only twenty three sacks in that entire time, and nine
Speaker 1: holding penalties in that entire time. Four first team All Pros,
Speaker 1: two second teams. He is the only player that was
Speaker 1: on the Hall of Fames and Pro Football References first
Speaker 1: team for the All two thousands, So I thought that
Speaker 1: was interesting. He's the only one from this era that
Speaker 1: did make that NFL one hundred list, which which did
Speaker 1: influence me. It was tough to pick him over Orlando Pace.
Speaker 1: Part of it was the way that Jones's career worked out.
Speaker 3: You mentioned his longevity.
Speaker 1: Pace was incredible at the start of his career, like
Speaker 1: right off the jump in like ninety seven through ninety nine,
Speaker 1: and Jones was still peeking late into his career. So
Speaker 1: all those All pros that I mentioned are actually in
Speaker 1: the two thousands. He actually made it all the way
Speaker 1: Mina to the PFF era and so these are like
Speaker 1: the last three years of his career, and he was
Speaker 1: the highest rated tackle in pass protection in those three
Speaker 1: years for PFF, and those are the final three years
Speaker 1: of his career.
Speaker 3: That's his mid thirties. So I know, like, there's no
Speaker 3: perfect way to mention here.
Speaker 1: To evaluate offensive line, especially twenty years later. But when
Speaker 1: you have like the numbers like that, and then you
Speaker 1: have all of the people that were around at the
Speaker 1: same time saying it, I found like a handful of
Speaker 1: players that were like, that's not just the best tackle,
Speaker 1: that's the best football player alive right now, or that's
Speaker 1: the best football player I've ever seen. And enough of
Speaker 1: those I was just like, well, he has to be
Speaker 1: on the list, and he could be higher if I wanted.
Speaker 3: Who knows with offensive linemen.
Speaker 2: Pace was the same draft, right he was.
Speaker 3: He was taken first and Jones yeah, went later.
Speaker 2: He was well no, But crazily enough, he was the Seahawks'
Speaker 2: second pick in that draft because they took Sean Springs fourth. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and then they traded up with the Bucks for Walter,
Speaker 2: which was just insane and a little Seahawks lowreer. A
Speaker 2: lot of that had to do with because that was
Speaker 2: when all Alan took over the team. This was before
Speaker 2: the rookie contract era. And Paul Allen was rich enough
Speaker 2: to afford to for his around rookies. Like a weird
Speaker 2: quirk of NFL history where he gave the green light
Speaker 2: to do it, because that was what I think right
Speaker 2: after the sale.
Speaker 1: Or great, great call, because I was wondering, like I
Speaker 1: was looking at his contracts and stuff. It's just like
Speaker 1: those first round contracts at the time. They were like
Speaker 1: seven years long, but they were they were huge for
Speaker 1: the time.
Speaker 3: But you're absolutely right. They tried to trade up with
Speaker 3: the Jets.
Speaker 1: They thought they had to deal with the Jets at
Speaker 1: six in the end, the Jets said no, like when
Speaker 1: they were on the clock. But Bill Parcell's got a
Speaker 1: small assist apparently said hey, we were talking trade with
Speaker 1: the Bucks. I don't think they're going to want to
Speaker 1: sit there. You should call the Bucks. They call the
Speaker 1: Bucks and they make history taking Walter Jones.
Speaker 2: The contracts too, are another funny part of Walter Jones's career.
Speaker 2: Who was the torreous for just not showing up to
Speaker 2: camp again. This is all that you learn a lot
Speaker 2: about NFL contract and CBA history through just reading about
Speaker 2: Walter Jones. But every year he would just hold out
Speaker 2: and he would train on his own, pushing like SUVs
Speaker 2: up them and then just show up seth Wickershiam did
Speaker 2: a great story about a USP in the magazine like
Speaker 2: twenty years ago. By the way, Uh anyways, he I
Speaker 2: feel like Cortez Kennedy before him, maybe was the last
Speaker 2: great Seahawks, but he really defined Seahawks football for an
Speaker 2: extraordinarily long amount of time.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I loved hearing some old clips I found at like
Speaker 1: John Madden talking about him and to be as recognized
Speaker 1: as he was in like a pre internet era essentially
Speaker 1: as just that dude, you have to just be that good.
Speaker 1: And I did want to give a shout out to,
Speaker 1: you know, his line mate Steve Hutchinson, who wasn't always there,
Speaker 1: but once they got him in the trade that is
Speaker 1: almost unquestionably the best left side of an offensive line
Speaker 1: in NFL history. I started covering the NFL for Roadal
Speaker 1: World in three and I would say that Seahawks offensive
Speaker 1: line not that people talk about all time great offensive lines,
Speaker 1: but maybe they get forgotten a little bit to me,
Speaker 1: because to me, they would be right near the top
Speaker 1: with the Cowboys of the mid twenty tens of the
Speaker 1: best offensive lines you know that I've you know, had
Speaker 1: a privilege to cover and having Jones and Hutchinson next
Speaker 1: to each other for a chunk of their primes is
Speaker 1: pretty crazy.
Speaker 2: We've been punished for it with twenty years in battle
Speaker 2: place since then.
Speaker 3: That's so true.
Speaker 1: So yeah, shout out to Steve Fudgets it did not
Speaker 1: make the list, but had to get Jones on there.
Speaker 1: Ravens fans, if you're curious, Jonathan Ogden, you know only
Speaker 1: five years of his prime were in the two thousands,
Speaker 1: so he like we missed a lot of the very
Speaker 1: best of his career some other really great tackles over
Speaker 1: the years. Lane Johnson did not make it for me.
Speaker 1: Jason Peters did not make it for me. Tyron Smith,
Speaker 1: who man, it's close at his very very best is
Speaker 1: it's hard to like ar you against him. But we
Speaker 1: can only have so many offensive linemen.
Speaker 3: We have a handful. We have a few more to go.
Speaker 1: Let's go to our next guy and our last guy
Speaker 1: will talk about with you.
Speaker 8: Mina number twenty one, Lamar Jackson, it's a second down
Speaker 8: and free Jackson takes it himself.
Speaker 5: Look at him back and forth. Oh it broke his ankles.
Speaker 5: Now he's gotten that turage. Damn, he's got a touchdown.
Speaker 5: He is, who deny? Who want to play? Forty seven
Speaker 5: yard touchdown run by the magical quarterback Lamar Jackson.
Speaker 7: Wow, he's like Kobe Bryant. How you can't necessarily stop
Speaker 7: Kobe Bryan. Kobe Bryant's gonna get his at some point
Speaker 7: And that was a great analogy. Lamar's gonna get his
Speaker 7: at some point. And we know that, and everybody knows that.
Speaker 3: Everybody knows that buyers to the anz up touchdown on.
Speaker 2: That tun Now I mingle with Vet, but he was
Speaker 2: Rema Eyes, so I'm right.
Speaker 4: I'll say, all right, then I had to be twenty.
Speaker 1: Lamar Jackson makes a list at twenty one, two MVPs
Speaker 1: and a first team All Pro in the year twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four, where he didn't win MVP but probably his
Speaker 1: best season had led the yards per carry in terms
Speaker 1: of the entire NFL four different time, third all time
Speaker 1: if you're into quarterback rating, by the way, like if
Speaker 1: you're just one of those old school people that like
Speaker 1: quarterback rating and wins, I know wins are not a
Speaker 1: quarterback stat mina, but he's third all time in like
Speaker 1: winning percentage in quarterback fascorating Yeah, kdr, Yeah, it's funny, yes, passerating.
Speaker 1: It's funny to me that like he dominates those like
Speaker 1: old school traditional stats too, so there's no way to
Speaker 1: come at him.
Speaker 2: The passerrating one is the one that blew my mind
Speaker 2: this season because he came close to the Rogers passer
Speaker 2: rating record, and passer rating, for those who don't know,
Speaker 2: doesn't take into an account quarterback rushing, which is why
Speaker 2: it's kind of a useless stat to be honest, because
Speaker 2: quarterback rushing is such a big part of the modern
Speaker 2: gamell QPR accounts for a point whatever we have to
Speaker 2: get to it, but anyway, point is like the quarterback
Speaker 2: who coming into this league. I don't want to overplay
Speaker 2: the Bill Poleon thing, but it was questioned by everybody
Speaker 2: whether or not he could be a pocket passer now
Speaker 2: whether they just switch positions. Just came close to breaking
Speaker 2: the Pesser rating record, Like I cannot stress enough. And
Speaker 2: I was as much of a Lamar Jackson fan as
Speaker 2: anyone in that draft Dominice, and I wrote long article
Speaker 2: about him like staking our you know, planting our flag.
Speaker 2: I did not think he would be this good. It
Speaker 2: is unbelievable what he has accomplished and he's only twenty eight.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no way to say about really any prospect
Speaker 1: coming in that year. He is going to be an
Speaker 1: inner circle all time great and that's what he is.
Speaker 1: And that's what I had to think about with this exercise,
Speaker 1: Like I was like, has he played long enough in
Speaker 1: the NFL?
Speaker 3: It's been seven years?
Speaker 1: Has he done enough to get on this list over
Speaker 1: some really great quarterbacks? Because I didn't want to make
Speaker 1: this just like an all quarterbacks list. Initially I had
Speaker 1: him on like a little higher than I had him
Speaker 1: completely off. And I settled here and just decided, like,
Speaker 1: especially of this generation. You know Mahomes is coming up
Speaker 1: spoiler alert, but of this generation, he literally was the
Speaker 1: best player in the league either three times or if
Speaker 1: you want to split it, this last year, like two
Speaker 1: and a half times. And he's the best running quarterback
Speaker 1: ever that like goes without saying not just that he
Speaker 1: had the best season of all time in terms of
Speaker 1: rushing yards, but leading all the NFL including the running
Speaker 1: backs and yards per carry four times, Like to me,
Speaker 1: is so crazy, But what you realize pretty quickly, and
Speaker 1: I think about that week one game actually in his
Speaker 1: first full season starting, it was twenty eighteen, right or
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, sorry, against Miami, and that game where he
Speaker 1: is just throwing bombs down the field and he is
Speaker 1: so good throwing over the middle of the field, and
Speaker 1: that is the game where you kind of realize, oh,
Speaker 1: his legs are going to set up so much with
Speaker 1: this passing and he is such a good passer. And
Speaker 1: that season, you know, his first full season as a starter,
Speaker 1: he wins the MVP.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think he's also a guy where the stats, as
Speaker 2: unbelievably impressive as they are, and you know, we just
Speaker 2: discussed all of them, still don't capture what he does
Speaker 2: to defenses and what he does on a football field
Speaker 2: and the way he I would say, more than any
Speaker 2: other player I've watched, Clee Michael Vick. He has more
Speaker 2: gravity as a dual threat, and I love watching the
Speaker 2: Ravens on tape for this reason. I love the way
Speaker 2: he pulls defenses on a string still and the opportunities
Speaker 2: that creates for the run game and other players is
Speaker 2: just unparalleled. He is also just the most electric like
Speaker 2: dynamic runner, you know, I mean just his style, the
Speaker 2: fact that he never appears to be moving at full speed.
Speaker 2: Is crazy. And then, oh, by the way, he also has,
Speaker 2: by the way, become the most accurate passer in the NFL,
Speaker 2: because you know, I was always a believer in his
Speaker 2: passing ability and his football IQ and whatnot, but he
Speaker 2: was not the passor he is now earlier in his career.
Speaker 2: And that's another thing I really have loved about watching
Speaker 2: him and about his game. And this is the same
Speaker 2: would apply to Josh Allen. He's gotten so much better, Greg,
Speaker 2: and he's twenty eight, twenty eight. I mean he's both
Speaker 2: him and Allen, by the way, not only have gotten better,
Speaker 2: but mentally, I would put up there with anyone in
Speaker 2: the league right now.
Speaker 1: Right because when you think about that twenty eighteen season
Speaker 1: or twenty nineteen season, twenty eighteen, by the way, sort
Speaker 1: of underrated when he came in and immediately started winning
Speaker 1: games for them and was like an immediate sensation and
Speaker 1: helps get them to the playoffs and belonged right away.
Speaker 1: But he definitely needed to develop, and he did that
Speaker 1: offseason in terms of his passing, You're right that twenty
Speaker 1: nineteen season, his running was absolutely setting up his passing
Speaker 1: and his passing was better than everyone realized. Hey led
Speaker 1: the league in passing touchdowns and QBR ESPNSQBR that year.
Speaker 1: But now the way he can manipulate defendant defenders, how
Speaker 1: he can anticipate, how he can throw over to the
Speaker 1: middle of the field. You have that part of it,
Speaker 1: and it's kind of like everyone who ever watched a
Speaker 1: running quarterback growing up, whether it was Randall Cunningham or
Speaker 1: Steve Young or even Dante Culpepper and just thought, like,
Speaker 1: that's so cool. Like if one guy could put it
Speaker 1: all together, like at the highest level, wouldn't that be
Speaker 1: the coolest football ever? And that is Lamar Jackson. He's
Speaker 1: done it. He is that guy.
Speaker 2: So you are taking into account playoff accomplishments putting this
Speaker 2: list together. How much are you dinging him for the
Speaker 2: fact that he's never been to a Super Bowl? So
Speaker 2: he's never won a conference championship game? I imagine you know none,
Speaker 2: I mean like Mahome. You said Mahomes is on the list,
Speaker 2: so it's not like there's anyone else in this regard.
Speaker 6: But but.
Speaker 2: You know, does that do you think there are people screaming,
Speaker 2: how can you put a guy this high? I'm just
Speaker 2: playing Devil's advocate here. Do you think that there are
Speaker 2: people at home saying, like, well, he's never even won
Speaker 2: a conference championship game, how can you put him this
Speaker 2: high on a top twenty high list.
Speaker 1: I just think the best way to evaluate a quarterback
Speaker 1: is over the course of a regular season, and he's
Speaker 1: done that so many times that it tells me that
Speaker 1: he will have that playoff success at some point and
Speaker 1: that I'm not that worried about it, like we I
Speaker 1: saw it with Peyton Manning, who is one of the
Speaker 1: greatest individual success stories of all time, and it took
Speaker 1: a while for him to actually get it done in
Speaker 1: the playoffs, and it didn't change really who who I
Speaker 1: think about him and think of all the times just
Speaker 1: because of the order it happened that, like Aaron Rodgers
Speaker 1: knocked on the door and didn't make it, you know,
Speaker 1: or Drew Brees after winning that Super Bowl the one time,
Speaker 1: like it took that long. So I don't want to
Speaker 1: have to wait till he's thirty one or thirty two
Speaker 1: to recognize Plus he's like he just he makes your
Speaker 1: jaw drop.
Speaker 3: Let's actually look at one of my favorite Lamar Jackson place.
Speaker 5: Justice Hill who's the best likely emotion, He buckles of
Speaker 5: my God, performs groups of them, doctrooms at home, pretends
Speaker 5: Hubbard how from a look a word and.
Speaker 4: Cots on touchdown, cots on touchdown then likely.
Speaker 2: Absolutely amazing.
Speaker 5: How in the world did he keep it together and
Speaker 5: let him find the open receiver.
Speaker 1: I could just do an entire show on Kevin Harlan
Speaker 1: calls of Lamar Jackson touchdowns. I've almost regretted not having
Speaker 1: Harlot on this episode just so I can hear him
Speaker 1: react to that. But we'll have them on some calls.
Speaker 2: I love it. Next, not to really nerd out, but
Speaker 2: next gen jet stats does the you know, completion percentage,
Speaker 2: likelihood of throws and whether or not a quarterbacks he
Speaker 2: seeded those he's got to have the most like just
Speaker 2: preposterously low odds of completing passes, touchdowns, deep passes, and
Speaker 2: just pulling the rabbit out of his hat. Of any quarterback,
Speaker 2: I mean, Mahomes, I guess would.
Speaker 3: Be above him.
Speaker 2: Yes, I don't know, though, I mean they're close. They
Speaker 2: both have, you know, all the best quarterbacks in the
Speaker 2: league right now, by the way, can lay us to that.
Speaker 2: But Lamar, it feels like he has to lead in
Speaker 2: this guy moments like that.
Speaker 1: That's worth something like we're talking about best, we're talking
Speaker 1: about greatest to me, this freaking guy, this guy he
Speaker 1: came to and Josh Allen. It took a little slightly
Speaker 1: later developing obviously came out a little later.
Speaker 3: Like he ushered in this new generation.
Speaker 1: It was we were a while between like great truly
Speaker 1: like all time quarterbacks. It was really like Andrew Luck
Speaker 1: was this one guy in the middle of this desert
Speaker 1: that we thought was gonna get there and then obviously
Speaker 1: retired early.
Speaker 3: But it was.
Speaker 1: Between these guys and we thought maybe that like the
Speaker 1: next great quarterback would would look like this, and he does.
Speaker 1: And I think his arm gets underrated. I mean you
Speaker 1: mentioned like the crazy plays. One play I watched, like
Speaker 1: watching this was a sixty two yard in the air
Speaker 1: like air yards opposite hash throw where.
Speaker 3: Like he's at the eight and he hits.
Speaker 1: I think it was the Sean Jackson of all people
Speaker 1: in stride. Like he does have a hose, which you
Speaker 1: kind of forget about with everything else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he is a really strong arm and he has
Speaker 2: a really unique arm talent. The game where him and
Speaker 2: Matthew Stafford just went toe to toe, not this year,
Speaker 2: but the previous year where they were just launching nukes
Speaker 2: all over the place. It was one of my favorit
Speaker 2: football games the last few years. I remember watching that
Speaker 2: and being like, these guys have a lot of common
Speaker 2: because they both not only have strong arms, and they're
Speaker 2: not only preposterous and have like arm arrogance, but they
Speaker 2: also are doing like side army, Like Lamar side arms
Speaker 2: it a lot. He's throwing off of like crazy platforms.
Speaker 2: He's doing really really special things just with his arm.
Speaker 2: I just had I just interviewed Darius lagh and now
Speaker 2: these in the AFC North. I asked him, are you
Speaker 2: more wary of playing Joe Burrow's Bengals or Lamar Jackson's Ravens.
Speaker 2: I thought he would say the Bengals because of Jamar
Speaker 2: Chasen t Higgins, right, but he was like, no, Lamar.
Speaker 2: And it wasn't a knock on Burrow, but he just said,
Speaker 2: there's just nothing more frustrating than having to defend defend
Speaker 2: two plays in one so often against the quarterback. And
Speaker 2: that's just what makes him special. It's like he gets
Speaker 2: an extra play like it's crazy. I mean, what he's
Speaker 2: able to do.
Speaker 1: For the first handful of years, and it was kind
Speaker 1: of back last year too. I thought the most unstoppable
Speaker 1: play in the league was when you know, they did
Speaker 1: you know, a play action or RPO and he pulls
Speaker 1: the ball and he just takes eight yards to the side,
Speaker 1: Like for four years the defense was essentially giving him
Speaker 1: seven to eight yards just running to the sidelines. There
Speaker 1: are so many runs throughout his career where he never
Speaker 1: hits the ground. It's just him going out of bounds,
Speaker 1: him just like gliding out a bound.
Speaker 2: Crazy. Yeah, the ability to avoid contact is I mean,
Speaker 2: knock I would is just the most unique runner that
Speaker 2: I don't know. It's crazy watching him run. It just
Speaker 2: makes no sense.
Speaker 3: You're the best guest ever.
Speaker 1: Because you even brought up like people yelling at me
Speaker 1: about the playoffs. That's I would have just like completely
Speaker 1: ignored it, which I which.
Speaker 3: I know I shouldn't. I shouldn't because it was it take.
Speaker 2: I'm certainly used to the playoffs.
Speaker 3: It's a great point.
Speaker 1: I think that the first couple of years he played
Speaker 1: tight and he was a young player then, but that's
Speaker 1: also like Mahomes came in and played his very best
Speaker 1: like immediately in the playoffs. The last couple of years,
Speaker 1: he's had great games in the playoffs, whether it's the
Speaker 1: divisional round or last year in the championship game, like
Speaker 1: doing everything he could, needing the drive and making it
Speaker 1: happen and playing well. So that that also really the
Speaker 1: last two years especially, and there were there's a couple
Speaker 1: of year gap there. They weren't in the playoffs and
Speaker 1: he didn't play twenty one and twenty two. So the
Speaker 1: last couple of years also as part of the reason
Speaker 1: why I feel like he's he's over that hurdle, and
Speaker 1: I think he has played well in the playoffs. But yes,
Speaker 1: this is more for the regular season. Sorry to the
Speaker 1: Josh Allen fans out there, their guy is not going
Speaker 1: to be on this list. I mean, I think that's fair, right,
Speaker 1: It's fine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, then.
Speaker 3: Said you have such a bad spot.
Speaker 2: You I know, I don't want to make a comment
Speaker 2: on this. I think that after Lamar, well, I don't
Speaker 2: know which how many.
Speaker 1: Quarterbacks, there's five more. There's five more quarterbacks. And that's
Speaker 1: the thing, like I was thinking about Lamar, let's say
Speaker 1: versus a Drew Brees. Drew Brees is going to be
Speaker 1: on this list, of course. Yeah, and when I think
Speaker 1: about lamar At is very very peak and what he's
Speaker 1: already accomplished, you could argue, I think that's as high
Speaker 1: or higher even than a great player like Drew Brees.
Speaker 3: So the highs are there. I had to not put
Speaker 3: my our guy, Philip Rivers on.
Speaker 1: I thought about doing it just to help his Hall
Speaker 1: of Fame case, but I don't think I have that
Speaker 1: kind of way that it would really matter. Brett Favre
Speaker 1: was an interesting one, by the way, because he won
Speaker 1: his three MVPs in the in the nineties and then
Speaker 1: you realize, like in the two thousands he made like
Speaker 1: two first team All Pros and four second teams, Like
Speaker 1: he was an incredible player in that decade, even though
Speaker 1: like he was even better the one before.
Speaker 3: Like you know, you got your guy Russ.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of great quarterbacks that could have made
Speaker 1: this list, Matt Ryan, like, but you can't make it
Speaker 1: an all quarterbacks list. But I did want one of
Speaker 1: these these current guys, at least at the back end.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you chose the right one. Non Mahome's division.
Speaker 1: We're biased though, I mean you wrote the article back
Speaker 1: in the day. Check out Mina Chimes. Thank you so much, Mina.
Speaker 1: Of course, it's the Mina Chimes Show featuring Lenny and
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Speaker 1: I like that she's tackling pop culture with her friend
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Speaker 2: Check it out if you Right now, we're doing Love Island,
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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I don't need to tell everyone to check
Speaker 3: out Mina.
Speaker 1: Our next episode will be the second edition of NFL
Speaker 1: Daily's twenty five Players of the last twenty five years.
Speaker 1: We will be joined by NFL Networks National reporter Steve Weisch.
Speaker 3: Looking forward to that one.