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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Sportsman's Nation podcast network brought to

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Speaker 1: you by Interstate Batteries. Interstate Batteries has been a proud

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Speaker 1: supporter of the Sportsman's Nation since day one. So if

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Speaker 1: you need batteries for your truck, batteries for your trail cameras, TV,

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Speaker 1: remote controls, flashlights, you name it, Interstate Batteries has what

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Speaker 1: you need. They have thousands of retail locations all over

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Speaker 1: the United States, so stop in talk to a battery specialist,

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Speaker 1: or for more information, visit Interstate Batteries dot com. My

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Speaker 1: name is Clay Nukeleman. I'm the host of the Bear

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Speaker 1: Hunting Magazine podcast. I'll also be your host into the

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Speaker 1: world of hunting the Icon and the North American Wilderness Prepare.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about tactics, gear, conservation, but will also bring

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Speaker 1: you into some of the wildest country on the planet.

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Speaker 1: Chasing batteries, guys and gals, mark your calendar for March.

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Speaker 1: The Arkansas Missouri in Oklahoma back Country Hunters and Anglers

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Speaker 1: chapters are putting on the first ever Ozark Black Bear Bonanza.

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Speaker 1: This event is designed to give a ton of amazing

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Speaker 1: information about hunting black bear and this part of the world.

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Speaker 1: There's gonna be the The event starts at two o'clock

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Speaker 1: and last till nine o'clock, and there's gonna be four

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Speaker 1: main events. Number One, there's gonna be a bear fat

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Speaker 1: rendering demonstration, which I'm gonna be doing. Number two, there's

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Speaker 1: gonna be a bear biologist panel. Bar Biologists from Arkansas, Oklahoma,

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Speaker 1: and Missouri are coming together to do a panel to

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Speaker 1: talk about all things bear in this region. Number three,

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Speaker 1: We're doing a live bear hunting magazine podcast yep, the

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Speaker 1: first ever live bear hunting magazine podcast, complete with an

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Speaker 1: al hooting contest and some live music. Thirdly, the final

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Speaker 1: event of the night will be a storytelling event. So

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Speaker 1: mark your calendar. March Bentonville, Arkansas. I didn't say that yet, Bentonville, Arkansas. Hey,

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Speaker 1: check all our all of our social media stuff Bear

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Speaker 1: Hunting Magazine social media to find out more information. But

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Speaker 1: you're gonna want to check this out on this podcast,

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Speaker 1: I met with how Harry. How is a incredible guy.

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Speaker 1: He's a long time outdoor writer. He's also host of

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Speaker 1: the back Country Hunters and Anglers cast and Blast podcast.

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Speaker 1: But he's more than that. House from North Alabama and

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Speaker 1: it's just a unique, fun guy. And uh, I had

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Speaker 1: a great conversation with him. You're gonna enjoy this podcast.

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Speaker 1: We are in Shannon County, Missouri, which is southern Missouri.

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Speaker 1: I would call it the northern Ozarks. Being from Arkansas,

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Speaker 1: this is like Yankee territory. Now we're we're in the Ozarks. Um,

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Speaker 1: I've I've, I've got with me, how Herring. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: introduce you in a minute more in depth. How, But

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Speaker 1: first we got to Uh it got cold on that

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Speaker 1: boat this afternoon, he did. And we were coming back

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Speaker 1: in a pretty good old small snow squall, no doubt.

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Speaker 1: So this afternoon, uh, how and I and Brandon Butler,

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Speaker 1: our mutual friend Brandon Butler, we were on the Current

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Speaker 1: River and uh, this is kind of like south central Missouri,

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Speaker 1: maybe southeast. It's on the it's probably on the eastern

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Speaker 1: half of the state. It's about four and a half

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Speaker 1: hours from where I live in northwest Arkansas. And we

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Speaker 1: were on the Current River. This is my first time

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Speaker 1: over in this part of the Ozarks. Beautiful section of

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Speaker 1: the Ozarks, a lot of public land, big white I was.

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Speaker 1: I was actually impressed by the size of that river.

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Speaker 1: For the for the drainage basins that I thought we

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Speaker 1: would see. I figured be a smaller river. This this

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Speaker 1: river was, I don't know. There were parts of it

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Speaker 1: that we're probably sixties seventy yards wide, maybe more than that,

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Speaker 1: twelve foot of water in holes and yeah, fast moving. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and uh we were smallmouth bass fishing. Yeah. And you

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Speaker 1: were the first. You caught more than any of us. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you did. It was mastering my side of the boat. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you were. You were casting over me sometimes trying to

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Speaker 1: take my good spot whatever I could get. I also

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Speaker 1: had that braided line, and when you're jig fishing like that,

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Speaker 1: the Brady line actually is it is? It is a

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Speaker 1: game changer a little bit, is it? Really? It is

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Speaker 1: because there's no stretching it. So whatevery whatever. I was

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Speaker 1: getting those light here I was getting. I was it's

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Speaker 1: like perch fishing or something. Yeah. I knew you had

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Speaker 1: to have had some kind of vantage over now we

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Speaker 1: So we just fished for a couple of hours this afternoon.

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Speaker 1: Um with uh with Brandon's buddy Billy, Uh can you

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Speaker 1: remember can you remember his full name? I think his

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Speaker 1: last name is Smith. He has that he has a

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Speaker 1: guide service there Scenic Rivers, Scenic Rivers. Buddy, that dude

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Speaker 1: can fish like. He's a tournament fisherman as well. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So we're fishing smallmouth bass out of a jet boat

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Speaker 1: with a troll and motor, and uh we probably caught

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Speaker 1: I don't know, ten or twelve and a couple of hours.

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Speaker 1: Two of the two of the fish were nice what

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Speaker 1: I would call brownie bass. Brandon had never heard him

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Speaker 1: called that smallmouth bass. Yeah, you know, probably the two

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Speaker 1: biggest ones were pushing two pounds, I think, but just

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Speaker 1: nice fish, you know, I just when it's that cold,

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Speaker 1: like I was saying, growing up in Alabama, like you

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Speaker 1: just didn't get owned the fish that much in the winter,

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Speaker 1: and maybe it just was for like a trying like

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Speaker 1: because those fish were there, they were, they were, they

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Speaker 1: were going pretty good today they were. And he said

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Speaker 1: that this is actually some of the best time. I

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Speaker 1: was surprised to him, said that. I would have thought

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Speaker 1: he would have said the springtime, you know, deeper into

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Speaker 1: the well, we're still late winter, there's no people out there.

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Speaker 1: It was we had it to ourselves and it was

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Speaker 1: freezing cold. Yeah, it was running up that river, I

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Speaker 1: think he said at one point, we were going twenty

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Speaker 1: one miles an hour when we're going back up river,

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Speaker 1: so we're going faster when we were going with the

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Speaker 1: current down river. But yes, I'm still cold, and that

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Speaker 1: we got out of the water two hours ago. But now,

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Speaker 1: how so I've just kind of come to know How

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Speaker 1: this weekend. But I've heard of you and knew of

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Speaker 1: you for a while, been verse vice versa just recently. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so how is it? Just just in short, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: give you a short introduction that I want you to

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Speaker 1: introduce yourself. But but How is a freelance outdoor writer.

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Speaker 1: He's an author, He's he's written a book back in

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Speaker 1: the at two thousand eight or so about that was

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Speaker 1: it was yeah gun book, famous Forrearms of the Old West,

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Speaker 1: which was a fun it was a fun project. And

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Speaker 1: and but you've primarily made your living as a as

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Speaker 1: a freelance outdoor writer, working for Outdoor Life, working for Film, Film,

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Speaker 1: Stream and Bugle like Hell Foundation, Um and then everybody else.

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Speaker 1: Nature Conservatives he put me on for a while as

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Speaker 1: a I mean as a freelancer. I was all traveling

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Speaker 1: for them. Um worked for High Country News, which is

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Speaker 1: a Western outdoor environmental publication really uh at a pay

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Speaker 1: on your Colorado. I've never been to the office there,

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Speaker 1: and I've written for him since nine. Yeah, um, so

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. I've called it together whatever I could. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And as of late, you've for the last two years

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Speaker 1: you have hosted the back Country Hunters and there's national

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Speaker 1: podcasts yea, yeah, yeah, And that came about just because

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Speaker 1: of um, like what I was telling you, like a

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Speaker 1: conversation around the fire one time, and and uh, this

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Speaker 1: young lady there who was more technologically savvy than those

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Speaker 1: old geezers. She just said, you know, somebody like like

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Speaker 1: I was listening to this guy, Greg Munther, who's a

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Speaker 1: tread bow guy and very successful hunter. He was up

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Speaker 1: u S forest service. I can't remember what he did

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Speaker 1: first service for career, you know, and um, who just

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Speaker 1: has an enormous amount of experience out and natural resources

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Speaker 1: and hunting and stuff. And she just said, man, I

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Speaker 1: wish somebody was getting this down, you know, and it

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Speaker 1: it It was important because people die and huge amounts

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Speaker 1: of knowledge fall away with them, you know. And um,

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about that when I decided to take

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Speaker 1: this on. It wasn't something I was that interested in

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Speaker 1: at first. Yeah, um, but yeah, yeah, well so you

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Speaker 1: are from North Alabama. Tell me about your just a

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Speaker 1: little bit about your background because now you live, well

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Speaker 1: you've lived the last twenty years in Montana. You almost thirty,

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Speaker 1: So tell me about your early years and and then

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Speaker 1: why you moved out to Montana. But so I was, Um,

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Speaker 1: so I wrote some when I I graduate from University

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Speaker 1: of Alabama, and I wrote something. I published some fiction

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Speaker 1: and some essays and stuff like that. But uh, I

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Speaker 1: had worked when I was like ten years old. My parents,

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Speaker 1: who had grown up in South Alabama, they bought property

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Speaker 1: outside of Hunts when we moved out in the country

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Speaker 1: and re redid this like eighteen thirty six log cabin

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Speaker 1: and that was kind of their dream, you know. And

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Speaker 1: um we had big gardens and uh and we just

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Speaker 1: kind of Uh. I hunted and fished, which is all

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Speaker 1: I never wanted to do up to age ten. I

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Speaker 1: just got to do it a thousand times more. And

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Speaker 1: we fish like like people around here to about catching

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Speaker 1: these red red horse, you know, these big suckers. It

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Speaker 1: was like I was obsessed with red horse again when

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Speaker 1: I was a kid and wagging snagging him. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: then and fishing worms on the bottom waiting for him

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Speaker 1: to show up. Like March thirteenth, they always showed up.

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Speaker 1: And then in the February pretty close to the day. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because we had some really small creeks that they would

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Speaker 1: show up in. And um, I mean it was just,

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Speaker 1: you know, amazing to go down to this creek. It's

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Speaker 1: like ten feet across and here's these All of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: there's he's big fish everywhere. Um. So it was just

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Speaker 1: a lifestyle like that, and uh, one thing happened. I

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Speaker 1: went to out, I went to Montana to a writer's

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Speaker 1: workshop in but it was all kind of came together.

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Speaker 1: I worked for paper companies as a tree planner when

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Speaker 1: I was in college, and um, we did a lot

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Speaker 1: of stuff. I were commercial fishing too for a while

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Speaker 1: in the Gulf, but mostly we were tree planters. And

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Speaker 1: with a ho dad, which is a hand tool and

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Speaker 1: you can plant in down there, you'd get thirty dollars

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Speaker 1: thirty three dollars a thousand and so in a in

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Speaker 1: a decent day was three thousand, and a good day

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Speaker 1: was five thousand. So you're done about being nineteen years old.

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Speaker 1: And then in the early nineteen eighties, minimum wages like

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Speaker 1: four bucks, right, and you're racking down hundred dollar days.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's a pretty good incentive and you live outside.

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Speaker 1: And so I was. I came to Montana in night,

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Speaker 1: and on the train from Chicago to Montana, there was

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Speaker 1: this guy who was a tree planner and he said, hey, man,

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Speaker 1: if you're a real tree planner, you can make a

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Speaker 1: fortune out here, which is not true really, but it wrote,

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Speaker 1: I want to stop you. Trained to Montana, Trained to Montown.

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Speaker 1: I got on a train in Memphis and it goes

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Speaker 1: Memphis to Chicago, Chicago to Seattle. How many days to

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Speaker 1: take you to get out there? Like three? Really? Why

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Speaker 1: did you take a train? I wanted to see what

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Speaker 1: everything looked like. Yeah, no, it's just like it was

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Speaker 1: like I was thinking of that teen eighty eight. There

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Speaker 1: were different ways to travel. It wasn't that long ago, right, No,

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Speaker 1: it was, but it was a good way to get

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Speaker 1: out there. Uh. And then uh, but so I realized

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Speaker 1: that you could actually go out west and make a living,

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Speaker 1: you know, versus like going on a vacation or something,

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Speaker 1: which we never had any money for. Um. And so

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Speaker 1: I and year after that, my wife and the woman

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Speaker 1: who became my wife. We drove out there in our

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Speaker 1: respective truck and car, and uh, I got a job

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Speaker 1: like off of off. I put my name up at

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Speaker 1: a co op, you know, and I got a job

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Speaker 1: running working hay crew. And I knew how to drive

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Speaker 1: tracks with and stuff like that. So I ended up

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Speaker 1: I just worked that ranch. It was like a hay

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Speaker 1: farm and hay operation and a but it was right

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Speaker 1: on the edge of better at National Forest. And um,

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Speaker 1: I killed a small boil the first year that I

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Speaker 1: was legal resident and out of tag and I just

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Speaker 1: was hooked. After that, it was, um, it was like

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Speaker 1: too much, too much to leave, you know. And so

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Speaker 1: you guys moved out there. Nine we we moved out there,

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Speaker 1: and then I came back for a while in my

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Speaker 1: late twenties to try to see what I was gonna do,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um, And then we just decided that it

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Speaker 1: was too good to leave behind. Stayed out in Montown. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: raised my family there, And so you were, did you

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Speaker 1: do timber workout in MONTA ended up doing lots and

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Speaker 1: lots of it. Uh. I would go seasonally, we tree

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Speaker 1: plant for cup this a few years through tree plant

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Speaker 1: in the early spring over Idaho and eastern Washington. And

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Speaker 1: then you'd come back when tree planting was over, say

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Speaker 1: at the end of May, and you you did timber thinning,

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Speaker 1: and then we thin timber all through the summer and

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Speaker 1: then uh, usually quit maybe go back tree plant for

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Speaker 1: three weeks in the fall, and then you're done in

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Speaker 1: the winter. And you didn't do you know, we go

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Speaker 1: skiing and ice climbing and wandering around and stuff. But

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Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot of money, like for extra money,

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Speaker 1: so we weren't like at the ski resort very often.

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Speaker 1: So when did the writing come in? About? Um, I

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Speaker 1: was probably about thirty. I went to graduate school and

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Speaker 1: creative writing, and I came out of that and I

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Speaker 1: went back to forestry work. But so you went to

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Speaker 1: graduate school, so you got your masters, and I was

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Speaker 1: but I was thirty by them. But uh, and then

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Speaker 1: he went back to planting trees. Yeah, I had to go.

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Speaker 1: I've never had student loan debt before, and all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, you gotta come up with this money every month.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, um, and uh. I applied for some teaching

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Speaker 1: jobs and that. But I don't think anybody or the

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Speaker 1: right mind would have hired me, you know. Um, But

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Speaker 1: it was one of the things happened. And we had

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Speaker 1: this big controversy in Montana at that time about game farming,

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Speaker 1: you know, captive trophy shooting, and one of the biggest

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Speaker 1: operations was right down the road from where I was living,

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Speaker 1: and I knew all these people worked there and I

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Speaker 1: knew how it all works. So I wrote a story

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Speaker 1: about that, and that eventually led me to Field and

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Speaker 1: Stream over this was old school early let's yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I think that story actually was not published until

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Speaker 1: about ninety eight. Um. But I started in on this

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Speaker 1: game farm and controversy and low and behold what shows

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Speaker 1: up when? And there was chronic wasting disease, right, and

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Speaker 1: so I got on the chronic wasting disease beat, and

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Speaker 1: Field and Stream was great for that, um, and I

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Speaker 1: I worked with it. I had steady work with Field

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Speaker 1: and Stream through this chronic wasting disease coverage back in

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Speaker 1: the late nineties. Yeah, in early two thousand's, and uh,

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Speaker 1: I got that actually carried me to the Atlantic Monthly

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Speaker 1: at one points the only story ever open Atlantic Monthly.

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Speaker 1: And but I really thought I was cooking the rules.

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Speaker 1: But especially like we were talking about earlier, like if

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Speaker 1: you got a labor job or your thinning timber for

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Speaker 1: you know, five hundred bucks a week to get a

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Speaker 1: write and paycheck for six hundred fifty. You know, that's

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Speaker 1: that's pretty competitive. You're cheating the system. Man, Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: and you feel pretty good. You know. That's the the

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Speaker 1: way that I would describe you know, me and you

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Speaker 1: have some similarities and that I graduated college and I

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Speaker 1: started working with my hands, started a landscape company and

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Speaker 1: was doing stone work and I mean just grubbing in

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Speaker 1: the dirt working and man, I felt like I was

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Speaker 1: cheating the system. When I got paid to sit behind

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Speaker 1: my computer and typing article. He was like, dude, they're

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Speaker 1: paying me for this. That wasn't much. It wasn't much money,

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Speaker 1: but you're not really making a lot anyway, like you

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Speaker 1: know it was, and so it was People asked me

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Speaker 1: about that, and I was like, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you realized, like how how little we you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: how much we live how little we lived on like

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Speaker 1: some of those years, you know. Well, I think I

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Speaker 1: think back in the day when print publications were the

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Speaker 1: media source, I think people made more money didn't did,

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Speaker 1: I mean anymore, writers aren't making a lot of much, right.

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Speaker 1: I came in at the end of that for sure. Like, uh,

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Speaker 1: I think Jim Carmichael was still right in at Fielding

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Speaker 1: Stream like the Rifles guy, and I remember going. I

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Speaker 1: was still around when he retired. They kind of retired him.

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Speaker 1: And after that it was more of us freelancers. And

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Speaker 1: it wasn't anymore. It wasn't a big career that you

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Speaker 1: went to the Atlantic Monthly or the field of Stream.

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Speaker 1: It was his gig. He caught him a deal, you know. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: So it was different and it was different. And whether

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Speaker 1: that's good or bad, I don't know. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: never wanted to be like fully employed somewhere where I

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Speaker 1: had to go to New York City and sit in

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Speaker 1: the office. You know, would you was your are you?

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Speaker 1: Are you a passionate writer? I mean, like, do you

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Speaker 1: enjoy that medium of communication or was it just a

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Speaker 1: kind of a means to an end that you were

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Speaker 1: just really good at? Okay? I love to read, and

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Speaker 1: I was probably the most voracious reader of my age.

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Speaker 1: I was terrible at math and stuff like that, but

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Speaker 1: I love to read, and so uh, I love the

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Speaker 1: after you've written, if you're kind of proud of of

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Speaker 1: what you've done, if if it makes sense and it's

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Speaker 1: a good piece I like to have. But but the

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Speaker 1: actual doing of it, I don't think I'm all that

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Speaker 1: passionate about it. It's it's sitting in your button a chair,

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Speaker 1: bashing your brains against some problem, and um, I'd much

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Speaker 1: rather be working in the woods at that moment. You know.

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Speaker 1: But then somebody sends you to Alaska to go fishing

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Speaker 1: and and investigate the pebble mind, you know, and all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden you're on a bush plane in Alaska

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Speaker 1: and you that's a heck of a lot better than

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Speaker 1: tree planting, yeah, you know. Yeah, And then you come

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Speaker 1: home and some of these stories, the stories are so wild,

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Speaker 1: like some of that that trophy captive trophy shooting people.

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Speaker 1: You You've talked to these people who they pay money

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Speaker 1: and they'll shoot this big elk from like twenty feet

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Speaker 1: away and they tell they mounted on the thing, and

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Speaker 1: they're like, it's like, what do you think about that?

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Speaker 1: You know, like like what what's going on? Like what

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Speaker 1: how do you what do you think about that? That's

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Speaker 1: so different than me? Yeah, And so that kind of

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Speaker 1: it's kind of fun, you know, you you're just in

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Speaker 1: all different kinds of experiences. Yeah, you know, we we've

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Speaker 1: we've we've officially exited the heyday of of print, which

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Speaker 1: the hey they have print lasted for long time was

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Speaker 1: the Guttenberg Press and invented the I don't even know,

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Speaker 1: I mean for hundreds of years the print word was

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Speaker 1: al primo. And and I believe that it's never gonna

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Speaker 1: fully you replace. But obviously the internet video, I mean,

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Speaker 1: all these other forms of communication are really powerful. But

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Speaker 1: how has uh is the is the writer? Like being

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Speaker 1: a writer, you know, being a writer has this sense

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Speaker 1: of a person that understands what's going on, is a

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Speaker 1: powerful communicator and has influence. I mean, that's the way

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Speaker 1: I would describe it. Is that still alive. Not as much,

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Speaker 1: not as much because like you get people who are bloggers,

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Speaker 1: and actually some of them are great, you know. Um.

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Speaker 1: Now the somebody a buddy of mine who's a novelist,

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Speaker 1: he said, the cashier of being a writer has gone. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, everybody's kind of a writer. Um. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's true. Um and I and I do think

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Speaker 1: back in the day, like I read Bill Heavy at

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Speaker 1: field and stream a lot, you know, and he's really funny,

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Speaker 1: and that's still extreme eemnly hard to do. You know,

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Speaker 1: that ain't on YouTube, that ain't on the on Facebook.

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Speaker 1: Very often, I've often put people like uproariously funny. You

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Speaker 1: gotta work at that. Yeah, that's a job. That's a

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Speaker 1: hard thing to do. And so I think somebody sometimes

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Speaker 1: like heavy and stuff like that that's still going. Eddie

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Speaker 1: Nikins at fielding Stream is able to write these incredible

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Speaker 1: stories like about dog hunting and um and I think,

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Speaker 1: I think if you're willing to work at it that hard,

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Speaker 1: that you can still kind of you're never gonna be

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Speaker 1: as big as you were in the fifties when you

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Speaker 1: were only a handful of them. There's a million of

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Speaker 1: them now. In a way, it's some aritocracy though, like

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Speaker 1: who's great you know guitar players? Like how many times

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Speaker 1: have you ever sat down with somebody who could play

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Speaker 1: guitar as well as anybody you've ever heard on the radio,

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Speaker 1: but they just didn't make it because maybe they drank

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Speaker 1: too much, or they were too busy raising little kids

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Speaker 1: or whatever. But they're this virtuoso on a guitar. I've

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Speaker 1: seen it. Yes, Yeah, it's like that there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of guitar players and not that many room at much

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Speaker 1: room at Yeah. Well, I still do think that I'm

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Speaker 1: glad to hear you say that, because that's what I think.

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Speaker 1: There's still a space for the written word that is

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Speaker 1: super powerful. Yes, and and and I think that the

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Speaker 1: pendulum is gonna swing back, and I think it may

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Speaker 1: even be now at some level. I mean people are

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Speaker 1: gonna I mean internet and technology and video and easy

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Speaker 1: access to stuff that doesn't everything brain capacity to digest,

387
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Speaker 1: like to read something. You're using brain power, calories, brain

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Speaker 1: calories to read this, and it makes you a sharper person.

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Speaker 1: You're being engaged. It's like you're bringing it. You're not

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Speaker 1: just but reading is not just passive. That's right. I

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Speaker 1: told my my my oldest daughter is at college right now.

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Speaker 1: And the older I get, the more I am grateful

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Speaker 1: for things that I started doing twenty years ago that

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Speaker 1: I'm now reaping the benefit of when I'm forty and

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Speaker 1: what I and one of the things that I told her,

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Speaker 1: it was just kind of a candid conversation we had,

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Speaker 1: and I said, I am so glad that I have

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Speaker 1: continued to read through my adult life and and and

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Speaker 1: I think it has it has it has helped me

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Speaker 1: develop as a person. And so yeah, I'm saying all

401
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Speaker 1: this to get back to this idea of being a

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Speaker 1: writer because because I mean, you're you're that's what you're

403
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Speaker 1: known as, that's what you are as You're you're a writer.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that's a noble thing. And I

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Speaker 1: think that, uh, I think you're right. I think the

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Speaker 1: guys that can do it well will continue to use

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Speaker 1: that medium as in a powerful way. And I know

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Speaker 1: you're writing a book too. I'm on on America's public lands.

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Speaker 1: But and which is a subject that's like I'm completely

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Speaker 1: passionate about. This ain't a heavy lift, you know, um,

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Speaker 1: but one of the things. And I'm not like a

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Speaker 1: big conspiracy guy or t o Ti Walkie into the

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Speaker 1: world as we know it type stuff, you know. But

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Speaker 1: I've been back the other day and I was reading

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Speaker 1: Thomas Paine Common Sense, the pamphlet that's that's set off

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Speaker 1: the American Revolution, you know, And I do think that.

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Speaker 1: And now again I'm gonna sound like a black Hall

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Speaker 1: a black helicopter dude, and I'm not, but like there

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Speaker 1: is gonna come a time in every nation's history and

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Speaker 1: every place in the world where the power of what

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Speaker 1: Tom Paine did, and it's not gonna be on the Internet,

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Speaker 1: because that's all gonna be monitored. I mean, you're monitored

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Speaker 1: to like like a buddy of mine and has phone

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Speaker 1: congratulated him for like twenty trips this year and at

425
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 1: everywhere he had been, from Mexico and Chile to all

426
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 1: over the West, you know. And so the what Thomas

427
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 1: Paine did, you could do in the future if you

428
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: needed to have a revel of rebellion, and great writers

429
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 1: would be saying, this is the argument for this. The

430
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 1: time is now, and it would be the same as

431
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: when they were in Albert Kamo was walking around Paris

432
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: under the Nazi occupation, and they carried pieces of a

433
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 1: print and press in their overcoats, and then they would

434
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: all meet like a flash mob. But this ain't on

435
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 1: the internet because they would have been caught. I see

436
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 1: what you're saying. And they assembled the print and press,

437
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,879
Speaker 1: they ran off the pamphlets for the Partisans against the Nazis,

438
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: and then they took the print and prest apart and

439
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: they all disappeared, and the ones that got called were killed,

440
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 1: you know, and so the printed were sharpen up our skills.

441
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: The printed word is gonna be with us. Yeah, yeah,

442
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: I really, I really believe that. Um. And you know,

443
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 1: I talked to people, Uh, I mean, I kind of

444
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: keep my pulse on the or I'm trying to on

445
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: the on the book world, and books are doing good

446
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 1: these days. Some books are doing incredible well. I mean

447
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 1: just walking to Barnes and Noble and I mean the

448
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 1: place is full of books and that place is hopping

449
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: with people. It's it's not like going to the arcade

450
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: that nobody goes to anymore. Because you can play video

451
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,400
Speaker 1: games at your house, which I've never played video games

452
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: in my life. Well I played them when you put

453
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 1: it quarters in the yeah, yeah, but now that's right.

454
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: So that to me just I was just I wanted

455
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: to have that conversation with you about about writing because

456
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 1: I I do think it's important, especially you know, in

457
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: modern times when hunters are being marginalized as this. I mean,

458
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 1: we're four point five percent of the population of people

459
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: in in the USA that that hunt We gotta we

460
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: gotta be sharp people. That's what I believe. And I

461
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 1: think this passion that we have for for hunting, for

462
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: public lands, for the type of lifestyle that we lead

463
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,719
Speaker 1: has to fuel us to be our best selves. Can

464
00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:00,080
Speaker 1: I say it that way? I mean in in to

465
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 1: me that comes in a lot of different forms, but

466
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: for me to be my best self. But but part

467
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: of that is his reading, his writing. It is staying

468
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: sharp and uh and I encourage people to read, you know,

469
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 1: read the written word, yeah, for sure. And then and

470
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: also balanced it with like like uh, I think Edward

471
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 1: Abbey said, be a I've hearted fanatic, you know, if

472
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: he said, primarily be outside looking and enjoying seeing how

473
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 1: much there is there to to love, you know, And

474
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: then and then you can celebrate that in your own

475
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,199
Speaker 1: writing and in reading like like I loved like like

476
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 1: essays like Tom mcgwain. We talked about a lot. He's

477
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: a great fishing writer. If he lives in Montana, he's

478
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 1: always he's pretty old now and he's like he's still

479
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 1: working at the height of his powers and he's still

480
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: like I read that, and I was like, that's what

481
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 1: I want. I love in fishing, you know. And he

482
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: got it. To do that, he has to come inside

483
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: and say, he told me one time I've been lucky

484
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 1: to interview him, and he told me that he no

485
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 1: longer struggled with a piece that he had to write.

486
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: He said, If I'm struggling with it, I'm too old.

487
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 1: He said, I have to go outside and just go

488
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: fishing because I don't have that much time left. I

489
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,879
Speaker 1: don't have time, he said. When I was your age

490
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 1: and younger, I would sit down and till our gun it,

491
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: you know, no matter what he said. But now, he said,

492
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: I write the things that interests me the most, and

493
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: the rest of the time I spent outside hunting and

494
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: fishing training dogs. Yeah. Yeah, but you gotta earn that

495
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: that place, Yeah, exactly. Well, so how you are Your

496
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: work with back country hunters and anglers and and you

497
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: being the voice inside their podcast has has made you

498
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: a spokesman for public lands. We were we were talking

499
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: earlier year from North Alabama. I'm from North I'm from

500
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: western Arkansas, and I think that sometimes I said this,

501
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 1: I said that, Uh, I think sometimes people from the

502
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: South sometimes have a have a hard time identifying with

503
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: the mission of bh not getting behind it. I mean,

504
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: they've got we got a strong Arkansas b h A

505
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 1: chapters and Southeast chapters and stuff, but we don't have

506
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: the public lands issues that you guys have out west there,

507
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: and we do have something, but they're just not the same.

508
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: And so we hear all this stuff about public lands,

509
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: public lands, public lands, keeping public and man, I can

510
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: get behind that. I mean it sounds good, but we

511
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: don't privatization of public lands and Arkansas is just not happening.

512
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: So what I think is that if just envision that

513
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: we knew, what I want you to do is I

514
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: want you to talk to us as if we knew nothing,

515
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: because I think the never I mean, everybody and their

516
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: brothers talking about public lands these days. I mean it's

517
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 1: just a trendy thing to talk about, and I think

518
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 1: sometimes we've skipped over the actual knowledge of what's happening,

519
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: and we've just jumped on the bandwagon because it's cool.

520
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: And so I want to take a step back because yeah, heck, yeah,

521
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: all of us can get behind wanting to keep access

522
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: to public lands. I mean, that's an easy thing for

523
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: a hunter to get behind. It's an easy thing for

524
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: a hunter to begin to understand the history at a

525
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: narrow level of public lands that you know, it was

526
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt and a bunch of those guys in the

527
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds that loved hunting and wanted to see

528
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: wild lands protected. That started the Forest Service. Right, But

529
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: talk to me about what's happening out west and why

530
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: this movement is so critical right now? Well, what and

531
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: what I'd go to too is, uh, let's trying to

532
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: dispel some ideas of disinformation that people might have. Is

533
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: one is is like you could say, I think it's

534
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 1: seventies something percent of Nevada is federal land, you know,

535
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: and people go, well, that's ridiculous. You know, the federal

536
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: government shouldn't even own that and all and and you

537
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 1: and then you look at Nevada and it's the Mohave

538
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: Desert and it's the Jarbage Range, which without that when

539
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: they overgrazed that and they didn't have enough water down below,

540
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: there's no rain, you know. So these were lands in

541
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,719
Speaker 1: the West completely we gave away under all the Homestead Acts.

542
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: Our federal government gave away everything plus that people could

543
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: have ever wanted. So the Homestead Act would have been

544
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: back in said if you can go out there and

545
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: you can take what you want, absolutely, and uh, the

546
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: problem with it was is you you got a hundred

547
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: You got a hundred and sixty acres in a place

548
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: that got two inches of rain. You know, So it

549
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: really didn't work, but some of it did. Oregon certainly

550
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: did California. But um eighteen sixty seven, there was one

551
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: coming out of the Civil War. You could go west

552
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: and claim on the homestead the last one that we

553
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: had several homestead acts. The last big one was nineteen

554
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: o nine, and a lot of that was like eastern

555
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: Montana was like the stuff that nobody else had claimed right,

556
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: because you couldn't really make a living, and so there

557
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: was enormous abandonment. So people came west on trains. They

558
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: had the rain follows the plow, right, the trains wanted

559
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: more customers. Yeah, they they said that the rain would

560
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: follow the plow. Once we plowed up all the planes,

561
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: it would start raining again, and more than it ever

562
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: had before. That was completely invented. It was just a

563
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: completely invented thing to give away more lands so the

564
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: railroad would have more passengers and then they would have

565
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: more grain as long as it's lasted. So nineteen o

566
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: nine Homestead Act was really pretty lean. You know, it's

567
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: a hardcore parts in Nebraska. Um that's like the last

568
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 1: stuff that was left uh Nevada um Utah, all this stuff.

569
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: But but I'm only I know Eastern Montana the best.

570
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: So ninety gave away a lot of homestead land. People

571
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: settled on it. It was some rainy years for a

572
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: little while, and then by nineteen twenty five, like the

573
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: population of Phillips County had gone up at Montana, Eastern

574
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: Montana had gone up to twenty thousand people. And then

575
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: it quit raining and people did whatever they could, including

576
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: eat the dog and and burn the house, you know,

577
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: to to survive. And by nineteen twenty five there was

578
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: about eleven people left there and there were five thousand

579
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: head of abandoned animals on the range, their plow horses

580
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: and stuff like that, and so it took so so

581
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: what we did was the same thing happened in the east,

582
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,719
Speaker 1: like the Nanahalia National Forest, the Piscon National Forest, the

583
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: washita Um Appalachical and National Forests in Florida. They had

584
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: logged these places flat. They were free. It was frontier style, right,

585
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: and timber company would file acclaim, but they would they

586
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: didn't pay. They would log it flat and then they'd

587
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: abandoned it and it was eroding so fast, like up

588
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: in in Nanahea. Uh. And I can't remember the name

589
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: of the forest round Nasheville, North Carolina, but it it

590
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: filled up the French Broad River with settlement and then

591
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: the French Broad River began to flood massively, right because

592
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 1: there's no timber to stop the rentoff and the and

593
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: the and the and the river was full of mud.

594
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: So people were taking it. They were losing everywhere, towns

595
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 1: being flooded. Uh. And so they passed in nineteen eleven,

596
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: they passed the Week's Act in Congress, and that allowed

597
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 1: the federal government to buy back or take over these

598
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: abandoned lands in the south and the east. Athleachical National

599
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,959
Speaker 1: Forest was one. They had cut all along leaf pine

600
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: out of there and then turpentined it, you know for

601
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: the stumps, and then abandoned it. And um and it

602
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: was it was just wreckage. And so the under the

603
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 1: Week's Act of federal government could use taxpayer money to

604
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: start restoring these landscapes. Wh they didn't know a year

605
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 1: was the Week's Act nineteen eleven. Man, that was that

606
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: was I mean, all that happened that that's a part

607
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 1: of our story at Arkansas about bears being extra pated.

608
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: Landscape level logging, Yeah, that happened all over Dident and

609
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: and um beyond just the landscape level logging was the

610
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: disasters of the floods and the river's filling up with

611
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 1: mud and losing so much top soil. And so we

612
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 1: put the Week's Act through the Congress and they begin

613
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: to acquire like the Bankhead and that what became Bankhead

614
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:35,879
Speaker 1: National Forest in Alabama. But in in Montana, they had

615
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 1: so many places that were abandoned and completely destroyed, like

616
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 1: you you'd grazed the last piece of grass off of

617
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: it before you gave up, you know. And this was

618
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: at anybody's fault. I mean, this is just people trying

619
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 1: to make a living in a place where it doesn't rain.

620
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,280
Speaker 1: And so we they passed what's called the Bankhead Jones Act.

621
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 1: And that was before the nineteen thirties, before the dust bowl,

622
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 1: I mean dust bowl was coming. Everybody knew that we

623
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: had overgrazed and over timbered, and we knew it. Roosevelt

624
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: and all of them knew it. But they passed the

625
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 1: bank Kid Jones Act, which allowed the federal government to

626
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 1: then buy or it take over these homesteaded lands that

627
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 1: were completely destroyed and restore them. And then they would

628
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 1: lease that restored ground for grazing and to use the

629
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: money from the grazing to support the public education in

630
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: in the say Land Grant University of Montana State University.

631
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: So they were they were fixing all these problems. You know,

632
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: you got uneducated folks who didn't know that it if

633
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: it doesn't rain, you can't raise five thousand sheep, you know.

634
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 1: But you you got our university. Now their kids can

635
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: go to it and learn about grazing and and the

636
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 1: and the the experiment that failed of of homestead and

637
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: these dry places, Well we fixed it. We fixed it

638
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: with taxpare money. So we had you fix it. Well,

639
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: Congress passed the Bank Kid Jones Act, and they then

640
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: employed soil scientists and range ecologists to replant you know

641
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: what would what would grow there and slowly restore that

642
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: range to a usable condition. So one of the things

643
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 1: in this public lands research I keep coming up with

644
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: is how them successful the United States of America and

645
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 1: its people have been in both wrecking stuff and fixing it.

646
00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, we gotta be the best in

647
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: the world. At both, you know, and and you go

648
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: over to somewhere like like I've never been to Syria,

649
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,399
Speaker 1: but you know the in even in England where their

650
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: top soil is like there's four ft of topsail gone

651
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 1: in the last two thousand years, you know, and we

652
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 1: just we just have called a different direction. And and uh,

653
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,800
Speaker 1: part of this is the system of public lands in

654
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: in California. They looked at l a and they said,

655
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: it done ever rain. There is no water, but there's

656
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 1: a it he already of almost a million people. And

657
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: they said, what are we gonna do? They said, We're

658
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: gonna have to make sure that nobody over grazes or

659
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: over timbers that San Gabrielle National like like a mountain

660
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: range and Los Angeles water. Yeah, and without it, it

661
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: doesn't there's no rain if you I mean, if you

662
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: don't catch the snow and the rain coming off into

663
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: that high mountains, there's no water down there. And so

664
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: you don't go killing the only goose that you got

665
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: that's laying the only golden egg that you can't live without. Um.

666
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 1: The same thing is where I live was the headwaters

667
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: of the Sun River drainage. It's all irrigated agriculture. Nine

668
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: inches of rainy year, there's and and uh all irrigated

669
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 1: and and they said, boy, they were cutting all the

670
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: railroad ties up there, and then they were putting the

671
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: sheep in there by the thousands and thousands, and once

672
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: those rivers started degrading, people downstreams started going, holy smokes,

673
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,959
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't rain here. Yeah, no more water

674
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: come from there, and it's not coming anymore. It's it's

675
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: it's too eroding in and filling in. So we it's

676
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 1: all been very practical. Now if I'm jumping ahead, stop

677
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: me and tell me where I should go. But so

678
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: all these homesteaders came out here and tried to homestand

679
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 1: US Land learned that much of it they could not homestead,

680
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: so that land went back into the hands of the

681
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 1: federal government because it had to be owned and managed

682
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: by somebody. Yeah. Well, the free range was a disaster,

683
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 1: you know. It was just you just take the last

684
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 1: piece of grass. It was tragedy of commons type stuff,

685
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: you know, on that one um. And we've learned since

686
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: then we're not as bad as we were, you know.

687
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: But yeah, it reverted back under that Bunkhead Jones Act

688
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: just in the same way, say, the Bankhead National Forest

689
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 1: of the Washingtah was taken into federal hands under the

690
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 1: Week's Act. So that's why we got these things. Yeah,

691
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: I mean, and and I think it's amazing in in

692
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 1: uh in Arkansas, and it's probably this way everywhere, but

693
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 1: it's real clear where the public lands starts and stops

694
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: because of basically it's land that is very difficult to use.

695
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: I mean, like you you'll be driving through this like

696
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: pretty flat, good looking farm land and then all of

697
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: a sudden, the train just drops into these big canyons

698
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 1: and hilly stuff and it's like, all right, we're in

699
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: the National Forest. Kids. Nobody wanted to live there. Everybody

700
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 1: wanted to live in the flat country. And really that

701
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 1: is why, I mean, to somebody that doesn't know much

702
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: at all about public lands, public lands are basically the

703
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,720
Speaker 1: places that nobody nobody in in Arkansas, and it's probably

704
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: this way out west to there's remnants of when it

705
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: was in private ownership, Like lots of the places in

706
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 1: the Ozarks and Washtalls, there's old you know, you can

707
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,240
Speaker 1: see foundations of old houses, old rock walls in different

708
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,799
Speaker 1: places where people tried to make a living for a

709
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: period of time on some real rough ground that they

710
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 1: probably got for a real cheap free yeah, yeah, are free.

711
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: And then essentially they went bankrupt and it went back

712
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,479
Speaker 1: into the they sold it or however it got back

713
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: to the federal government. So anyway, I mean, that's a

714
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: that's the story. Maybe not everybody knows. I don't think

715
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 1: people know it, and I and uh like for the end,

716
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: there is an anti public lands movement um and and

717
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:23,759
Speaker 1: people hate the federal government so much that it's like

718
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: they would give away their national forests in some kind

719
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: of protest. I mean, I don't know what people are

720
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 1: talking about with that now in the East or the South,

721
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: but in the West, you know, we have all this

722
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 1: anger over federal land management. And um, you know, to

723
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: be truthful with you, that's always gonna be there because

724
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 1: it's this incredible piece of ground where you can take

725
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: a pack string and go ilk hunting for two weeks

726
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: if you want, or go hiking all day every day.

727
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 1: And and when you got something that's that valuable. Now

728
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: it's attained these values. As the population United States has

729
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 1: gone to three and thirty millgan or whatever. Um, you know,

730
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: we're always gonna argue over that. It's it's reminds me

731
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: of of my family and this property, this farm that

732
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,560
Speaker 1: that I inherited when my daddy died. We inherited together.

733
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: We don't agree over the management that property. Yeah, no

734
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:18,799
Speaker 1: we don't. Will you argue over it? You know, but

735
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: we all love the property. You want to keep it? Yeah,

736
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: it's it reminds me in a Microcosmo voides you can't

737
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 1: expect they're not to be conflict over logging, you know

738
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,720
Speaker 1: out West. I mean there's places we need more logging,

739
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: there's places we wish we had less logging. Yeah, we're

740
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: always gonna have to argue over Yeah, now what you

741
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: told me, and you said it earlier today you said it.

742
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: There is that there there is some just anti government

743
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: sentiment that seems to feel some of this. That was

744
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: kind of news to me. I mean that that that

745
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: it's kind of a mind frame in some people, just

746
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,920
Speaker 1: this anti government thing. Yeah, they just hate the government,

747
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: And I'm okay with that, you know, but that doesn't

748
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: mean you wanna not have any place to go hunting. Ever.

749
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I think probably most of the people that

750
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,840
Speaker 1: would listen to this podcast would would prefer less government

751
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: over more government. But there's a lot of good things

752
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,400
Speaker 1: our government does for are. One of them is maintain

753
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: our public lands. Yeah, I mean we yeah, exactly, And

754
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 1: and it's and there's not there's really no other country

755
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: in the world. Canada has the crown Lands and the

756
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 1: people don't have much say over how they're disposed, but uh,

757
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 1: they can use them. But we we have the ability

758
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,279
Speaker 1: of Americans raise hill like they squabble, and they always have.

759
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 1: You know, we don't have like a monarchy where everybody

760
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 1: goes God Save the Queen or whatever. We you know,

761
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,879
Speaker 1: we laugh and stuff like that. And so people who

762
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 1: think that, um, there's there's six forty million acres of

763
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 1: American public lands, and that's Bureau of Land Management, which

764
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: was which was a lot of that grazing land in

765
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: the interior West that was too dry for any to settle.

766
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 1: And that's least for grazing. Now at the lowest grazing

767
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: rate in the world, which is ALLAR sixty six for

768
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,399
Speaker 1: a cow calf payer for a month. Um, that's really

769
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 1: low and it loses money, but it also keeps small

770
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 1: ranchers on the land. And I I personally because I

771
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: live in a ranching town. I guess I'm biased. You know,

772
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,239
Speaker 1: my son does that kind of work and stuff. I

773
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: think there ought to be small ranching in the West.

774
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 1: I like, I like cowboy culture and people raising their

775
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 1: family out in the middle of nowhere and doing rodeo

776
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: and being free and shooting guns and going hunting. I

777
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: think that's a great part of America and this this

778
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 1: is part of that. Like like people who are the

779
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: anti public lands movement, Uh, they don't have any idea

780
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: that if those lands were transferred to state control, they'd

781
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: be sold because the state came manage them the budget.

782
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: So that is a big point that somebody could just

783
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 1: take a little nugget away to understand. The anti public

784
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 1: lands movement is not necessarily the federal government selling this

785
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: land to some big private corporation. Not necessarily, not necessarily,

786
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,239
Speaker 1: how would happened to it. There's there's a lot of

787
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:13,839
Speaker 1: talk of giving it back over to the states. And

788
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 1: and here's one thing you ought to know them that

789
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: is the states never had it, like like under the

790
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 1: Enabling Act of whatever it was that under statehood in

791
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 1: Utah they relinquished, specifically relinquished control to all federal lands

792
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 1: within the state. They never had it. There was never

793
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 1: a place in Utah that was that was owned by

794
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,879
Speaker 1: Utah and the federal government came in and took it.

795
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,480
Speaker 1: I mean, there is imminent domain in national parks like

796
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,879
Speaker 1: in the east, but that's not part of this discussion.

797
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 1: I see what you're saying, that these were unclaimed lands.

798
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 1: The state relinquished uh any claimed to them in Nevada

799
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 1: and Utah, Montana, Idaho, uh and then they became states

800
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 1: and these federal lands remained with them. Okay, that the

801
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: way you said right there makes sense to me. These

802
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:06,280
Speaker 1: were unclaimed lands and essentially would be like a state

803
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: formed around that was owned by the federal government. And

804
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: so now some of these people are coming in and saying, hey,

805
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: there's federal land inside the boundaries of my states, and

806
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: you in the government doesn't have a right to own

807
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: land in my state, but they do under their constitutions

808
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: and under the Enabling Act. And and that the thing

809
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: is is this, If this were some kind of evil thing,

810
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 1: I would be for like fixing it, like how do

811
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: you fix it? But instead it's like the kind kind

812
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: of the best thing ever about our country to me

813
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: is that we have all of these lands that we

814
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 1: all can use and share and wander around and look

815
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,240
Speaker 1: at the canyon lands and Utah with all those crazy

816
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:52,360
Speaker 1: pictographs and and and you can go hunting in Montana

817
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 1: or hunting in in Colorado. You know. I mean it's

818
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: so I don't know what people are so about federal Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well,

819
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 1: and it's an issue of finances as well too, because

820
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 1: these big vasts, you know, sixty acres of public land million. Yeah,

821
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: that's million. It costs money, especially out West fire suppression. Uh,

822
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 1: just management of of roads and the management of control

823
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:30,240
Speaker 1: all the money that goes into So is there financial

824
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 1: issues like the federal government saying we don't have the

825
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: money to properly manage these so we want to turn

826
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: it over to the states. No, that's never come up

827
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:41,960
Speaker 1: because the states would have to sell them because the

828
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 1: states definitely don't have the fire management money you know

829
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 1: that the Feds have. When when all three hundred million

830
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: of us, however, many of us pay taxes, Yeah, we're

831
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 1: paying in you know, you've got a bigger chest to

832
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,919
Speaker 1: manage whatever. Um. The other thing was is he keeps

833
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 1: coming up as he goes, he goes all this land

834
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: is doesn't pay taxes like if if some millionaire owned

835
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 1: the Washington National Forest, they would be paying land taxes

836
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 1: and so your state would have more money then that.

837
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: That's one of the arguments un land. Yes, but it

838
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:17,439
Speaker 1: but a county like San Juan County in Utah, which

839
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 1: is something like uh public land, they get what's called

840
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 1: And you'd have to google this because it is. It's

841
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: very complicated. It's another American thing that we figured called

842
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: payment in lieu of taxes are pilt and so federal

843
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 1: lands do bring money into states and counties in addition

844
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 1: to logging and employment and different stuff like that. But

845
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 1: they bring in payment in lieu of taxes. And you know,

846
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:47,319
Speaker 1: if you owned that desert in Nevada, I'm not sure

847
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:49,520
Speaker 1: you'd pay more taxes on it. How would you What

848
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 1: would you do to to generate money from this desert too,

849
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 1: so that you could pay higher land taxes. I don't

850
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 1: think it works. These are deserts, they're alpine rock an

851
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: ice wilderness. I mean, they're not gonna be making your money,

852
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:11,680
Speaker 1: you know. And and where we have mining resources we've mined,

853
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 1: you know, I've got there's abandoned minds, where we have

854
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:20,280
Speaker 1: energy resources we've leased and we've we've harvested the energy.

855
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 1: The idea that all this stuff is somehow locked up

856
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,720
Speaker 1: is another thing I hear in the South and stuff.

857
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: They go they got it all locked up, you can't

858
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,760
Speaker 1: use it. I was like, I mean, I go shooting

859
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 1: almost every week on a piece of BLM. I drive

860
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 1: out there and and if you go to women, you're

861
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 1: in the energy fields for miles hundred miles of of

862
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 1: cold bed met there's four thousand cold bed methane wells

863
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: abandoned on public land and about the river Woming, which

864
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: ain't a good thing, you know. But I'll tell you

865
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 1: one thing. They didn't want to own that land. They

866
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 1: wanted to get the cold bed methane and then get out.

867
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: I mean it wouldn't did. Nobody in the right mind

868
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: would want to own an oil field when the old

869
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 1: is gone, you know. So we we balanced things out. Yeah. Yeah,

870
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 1: So tell me how uh like back country hunters and

871
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 1: anglers is is helping the public lands situation. Yeah. So

872
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 1: one of the things they've done is they've raised awareness

873
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 1: amongst hunters and fishermen about not just this movement to

874
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: privatize or giveaway or sell off our public lands, which

875
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 1: is real, but just about public lands management like and

876
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 1: and and um access to public lands like where their

877
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 1: landlocked by private um crazy mountains in Montana UM. They

878
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 1: have just they've raised awareness of activist people who are

879
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 1: hunters and fishermen who here to four who is now

880
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 1: paying attention. They're paying attention because we took this for

881
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: granted for till this big like the Bundy's that you know,

882
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: had to stand off with the BLM over the cattle

883
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: out in Nevada and and in Oregon, UM. We didn't

884
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:13,240
Speaker 1: really realize that there was like a an American Lens Council,

885
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,840
Speaker 1: which is a well funded organization which is devoted to

886
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: getting rid of federal public lands. And and they really are.

887
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: They're not kidding, you know. And and here's people I

888
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: know who go elk hunting there. There's the only thing

889
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,720
Speaker 1: they live for. They got they got you got mules.

890
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 1: You know these people are they're keeping a string of

891
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 1: feeding horses, string a few horses and mules. They go

892
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: elk hunting every year. And they never dreamed that anybody

893
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,439
Speaker 1: would get rid of part of the Lewis and Clark

894
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: National Forest, or or that they would even dream of.

895
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 1: Well they're dreaming of it. Yeah. Wow, So that's a

896
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 1: good description of back Country Hunters and English. They're they're

897
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 1: they're an activist organization that's got people looking at the issues.

898
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 1: I've got an example and and and I said this

899
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 1: to you earlier. We don't have the public lands issues

900
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 1: in the East like you do in the West, and

901
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 1: so sometimes I think you will um talk about it

902
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 1: being an activist organization. There was just recently, uh two

903
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:23,800
Speaker 1: months ago, there was a public input uh session period

904
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 1: of time for the state of Florida when they were

905
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 1: revising their bare management plans. There's been a massive pushback

906
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 1: by the by the animal rights groups and different people

907
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 1: in Florida saying we don't want a bear hunt. Well,

908
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 1: rurals Florida is is a pretty rural wild place really,

909
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 1: except for these big urban centers which outvote everybody. Yeah,

910
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 1: it's the typical story. Well, back Country Hunters Anglers Southeast

911
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 1: sent out and I remember how they did it. They

912
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: sent out an email, they sent some Facebook stuff and

913
00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 1: and they said, hey, we want hunters and anglers to

914
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: voice in to this public input session in Florida. And

915
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 1: they they you went into the website and you got

916
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:12,319
Speaker 1: a direct link that sent this email to this place. Well,

917
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: I did it. I posted some stuff about it, and uh,

918
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 1: a bunch of people did it. In anyway. The report

919
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 1: that I got back after that from the guy that

920
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 1: talked to the biologist, he said that that I don't

921
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 1: want to quote the actual numbers because it was I'll

922
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: probably probably get it wrong, but I want to say

923
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 1: there were hundreds of back country hundreds and anglers guys

924
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 1: that made comments that far outnumbered the the negative comments.

925
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 1: And it was solely just because we were we were

926
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:48,840
Speaker 1: grouped together, we were unified. It was easy and we

927
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 1: were activated and it and it was easy to do it.

928
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 1: All you had to do was, you know, go to

929
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 1: this website, do you know. And here's the thing too,

930
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:59,839
Speaker 1: especially when you're in the service, something like those biologists,

931
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,799
Speaker 1: that there's enough black bear to hunt. Yeah, so it's true. Yeah,

932
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 1: I mean, it's true. The state has management and there's

933
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 1: enough bears to hunt, and it's way out in the

934
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 1: middle of the country where you can hunt them. It's

935
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: like that the people's emotion inside Orlando shouldn't be making

936
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,800
Speaker 1: the rule out there but you, but they will unless

937
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 1: you get together and push back and and the thing

938
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 1: to me, and I told you this, I've taken a

939
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 1: little bit of flak for being back. There's there's a

940
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: little bit of skepticism in the South and uh and

941
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:37,879
Speaker 1: and it's it's I don't quite understand it, but man,

942
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 1: it was a back country hunt to southeast that was

943
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 1: stepping up and standing up for bear hunting in Florida

944
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 1: and uh and and it's not over yet. I mean,

945
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 1: there's a lot left to do. But just in that

946
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,439
Speaker 1: one instance, I do have that example. But the point

947
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 1: of me saying that is that if you can unite

948
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 1: people and get them pointing in the same direction and

949
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 1: paying attention, you're you're winning. One of that's what be

950
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 1: one of Yeah. And one of the ways that one

951
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:04,480
Speaker 1: of the things that's happened here is it's like, I

952
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:08,240
Speaker 1: don't know what the the ages are like twenty to forty,

953
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 1: I mean really young, and and those people were not

954
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 1: around when it was just like other other older conservation groups.

955
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:22,439
Speaker 1: I mean people were getting so old around Montana. You'd

956
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 1: go to these meetings or Valley County Sports and Sportsman's Association,

957
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 1: this old sports and you know that that's what they did.

958
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,800
Speaker 1: They go to the legislature and they go like, no,

959
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 1: you're not gonna close off access to you know, the river,

960
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:37,280
Speaker 1: you know, and that these guys, but they were getting

961
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 1: so old and nobody was coming in behind them until

962
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:44,399
Speaker 1: b h A started and appeal to a younger bunch

963
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 1: of folks. And I think that might be the longest

964
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:52,799
Speaker 1: the biggest power that they've have, really, like the most

965
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 1: positive thing they've done is for young people to have

966
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 1: a go place. Like my son's nineteen. His friends are

967
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: all into it, and they're and they're like nineteen and

968
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 1: they hunt like like harder than I ever did. They got,

969
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:08,719
Speaker 1: you know, they've got it's a time in their life

970
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 1: when they're free to do it. They're hiking into the

971
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 1: Gravelly Mountains, they're packing out elk from eight miles away,

972
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: you know. And and I think it's just cool. It's

973
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:24,760
Speaker 1: totally they're floating the rivers fishing, you know. Yeah, that's awesome.

974
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Well, what would you say the biggest so so,

975
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,279
Speaker 1: if what's the biggest threat to public lands in the West,

976
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 1: The biggest threat to the public lands and West is

977
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 1: enough people in America don't know what we're talking about. Yeah,

978
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 1: and and have no idea of the level of freedom

979
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:47,400
Speaker 1: that this represents. And sometimes when you don't know what

980
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 1: you got, people take it from you before you get

981
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 1: a full grasp of it. That's the danger, you know.

982
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 1: And then there's a lot of disinformation out there from

983
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:59,760
Speaker 1: people who don't who don't want this to continue, saying

984
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 1: that the Feds have locked up this and done that,

985
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:04,800
Speaker 1: and and the place is so huge, and there's so

986
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 1: many different problems, Like in management, you know that you

987
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 1: can easily focus on the negative and forget that I'm

988
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 1: going elk hunting next year, you know, on public land

989
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 1: for as long as I can afford to be out. Um.

990
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 1: I just we've got a problem in the United States

991
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 1: where we started focusing on the negative. And I think

992
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:30,360
Speaker 1: it's because we don't know. I've been deep immersed in

993
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 1: this history. And when I did my gun book, that's

994
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 1: what it was. It was just a history of America,

995
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 1: like you know, written in gun smoke, really and I

996
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 1: just love that. And I find people just don't know

997
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 1: that history, so they don't know how we got here,

998
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 1: and so really kind of the path forward is pretty cloudy,

999
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 1: you know, if you don't know what the week's act

1000
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 1: is and how you got the Nantahel, your national forest

1001
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 1: where you go run your dog every week, you might

1002
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 1: not be able to keep. Yeah. Yeah, So that's the thread.

1003
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:06,439
Speaker 1: The thread is is not not people not knowing, Yeah,

1004
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:09,240
Speaker 1: what we got and just taken for granted that will

1005
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 1: always have what we do have now exactly and why

1006
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 1: would we Nobody else in the world's got like it. Yeah,

1007
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 1: you know what you said about the trend inside of

1008
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 1: Maybe it's other places, I don't know, but I do

1009
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 1: know it's here. So the trend in American culture is

1010
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 1: to find the point that we disagree on and and

1011
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 1: make a big stink about that. I mean, what you

1012
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 1: said about your family land in Alabama, I think is

1013
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 1: a great example that you and your siblings who you

1014
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 1: love and get and there is disagreements even on that

1015
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 1: of how it's gonna be managed. We just have to

1016
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 1: understand that man on a big block of public land

1017
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 1: out west, there's gonna be a lot of people with

1018
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: interest in that land. Some of us have interested in

1019
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 1: it for the wilderness, solitude, and hunting. Some of us

1020
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 1: might have interest in it for a TV writing. Some

1021
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 1: of us may have interest in it for grazing cattle.

1022
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:05,439
Speaker 1: Some of us may have interest in it for making

1023
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 1: living for our family, log and timber off government contracts.

1024
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 1: Like everybody has this angle, and I mean, we've we've

1025
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: got to be able. We've got to be able to

1026
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 1: see the broad picture, which is this is public land,

1027
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 1: it's ours. We need to keep it in public, the

1028
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 1: public domain, and fix what's wrong with you know, and

1029
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 1: like like Congress has choked the budgets for the Forest Service.

1030
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 1: We it's actually better. It's it's a little better now

1031
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 1: because the Forest Service is not choked done by having

1032
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 1: to pay all their fire costs. You know that they

1033
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 1: separated that out recently and um and which is really positive.

1034
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 1: And but you know, I have a vision for all

1035
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 1: This is the reason I embarked on this book project.

1036
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:49,160
Speaker 1: I could see how this could be made to work

1037
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:51,960
Speaker 1: in a in a much more like like more a

1038
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:54,840
Speaker 1: way where people could be more excited. And one of

1039
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 1: the things that I'd like to see was I'd like

1040
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 1: I made a live in contract in federal way and

1041
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 1: jobs climbing pine trees and for nurseries and and building

1042
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 1: trails and bridges and all that stuff. I had a

1043
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:09,720
Speaker 1: great time with that. But I think if the Forest

1044
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 1: Service would have like an AmeriCorps of tree planners and

1045
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 1: thinners and and then have like more employment on public lands,

1046
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:24,640
Speaker 1: like doing good work habitat restoration, watershed stuff. Um. And

1047
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 1: I think there's a future where we have more engagement

1048
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 1: with public lands and employment because we've cut that too far,

1049
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 1: you know. And and it's it's it's separating people out

1050
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 1: like from and uh, didn't you say you were hunting

1051
01:00:39,920 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 1: up or on off Highway ninety layer Alberton? Say are

1052
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 1: you just all that country? So Mineral County, Montana, I

1053
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 1: think is public land. It was all logged off completely

1054
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 1: and replanted and logged to some extent. There's not much

1055
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 1: logging left in there. There's not that much valuable timber left.

1056
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:03,440
Speaker 1: It will be someday, but there's very few jobs. And

1057
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:06,600
Speaker 1: and what jobs are done, they're are done by visa

1058
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:10,840
Speaker 1: laborers from like Central America. And that makes people mad.

1059
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 1: You know, if you live you grew up in Superior,

1060
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 1: the high school's closing because you ain't got enough kids

1061
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 1: in it, and and your daddy would had a job

1062
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 1: at a mill, and that you don't have that anymore.

1063
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 1: You know, that makes people mad. And um, I just

1064
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:26,680
Speaker 1: think that you could go in there and you'd have

1065
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 1: more employment thinning timber and restoring watersheds and replanting trees

1066
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:34,360
Speaker 1: and cutting trees where necessary, you know where where where

1067
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:38,439
Speaker 1: sustainable and get you a sawmill that operates that owned

1068
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 1: smaller timber, and let's let's get some you know, get

1069
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 1: some energy. You know, other places are fine to just

1070
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:49,440
Speaker 1: sit there and be the hunting country or be the

1071
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 1: protection of the watershed. You know. But but um, I

1072
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 1: don't think that. I think we I can't. I think

1073
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:57,640
Speaker 1: we can do better as long as we keep the

1074
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:02,640
Speaker 1: baby and the bathwater both. You know. It sounds like

1075
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 1: some like um um Roosevelt New Deal kind of stuff

1076
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 1: like uh yeah, yeah, like build some programs for people

1077
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:17,720
Speaker 1: to engage. Yeah, and I think people, I mean, I

1078
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 1: don't think anybody. You and me are pretty active outdoors

1079
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 1: when you know, but there's a lot of room for

1080
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 1: people to get up and move around. Yeah, from what

1081
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 1: I see at the walmart down here, they could use

1082
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:36,360
Speaker 1: a little public land like swinging a dad or whatever. Yeah,

1083
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:39,640
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I mean, high school kids

1084
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:43,200
Speaker 1: could could be happier, I thinking, healthier if they had

1085
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:45,800
Speaker 1: a little dose of the Washington National Forest. Let them

1086
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:54,120
Speaker 1: know what's there. That's right, you know, it's our America man. Yep. Well,

1087
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 1: how thanks to ton Man what we've what you've said

1088
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:02,680
Speaker 1: is helped me understand it at a at a greater degree.

1089
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:07,160
Speaker 1: And uh and I think it. Uh, I think it.

1090
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:10,120
Speaker 1: It makes it makes even more sense to me. Now,

1091
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 1: is there anything that I haven't asked you or anything

1092
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 1: you'd like to say? I think I think we're good.

1093
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:18,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to beat it over, to

1094
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:21,840
Speaker 1: beat the horse and down, but um just I just

1095
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 1: want I think I want people to engage. I want

1096
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 1: people to seek. I mean, it's hard to take a

1097
01:03:27,440 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 1: trip everywhere busy, you know, but I think I think that.

1098
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 1: I just was down in southern Utah recently as part

1099
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 1: of this book research and stuff, and I just was

1100
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 1: so blown away by what we got. I mean, and

1101
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 1: I went down to a gold Mutet National Monument in

1102
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:45,920
Speaker 1: the Mahabi Desert on this same trip and looked at

1103
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:49,640
Speaker 1: those pictographs and think about those thousands of years of

1104
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:53,640
Speaker 1: people doing that, traveling through those deserts to what were

1105
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 1: they do and you know, you'll never know and the

1106
01:03:56,960 --> 01:04:00,200
Speaker 1: mystery of it all, and and the like the be

1107
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:04,840
Speaker 1: a national for Olympics, the Olympic Peninsula in in Washington

1108
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:09,800
Speaker 1: and Episkun and Nanahgel, the Washington Appletical and National Forest.

1109
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:13,040
Speaker 1: It's like, I guess sometimes I'm just so blown away

1110
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:17,200
Speaker 1: by what we've been born into, this birthright, and I

1111
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:19,959
Speaker 1: think that's what part of why I'm doing this book.

1112
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 1: And I did this movie that's coming out. It's called

1113
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 1: Public Trust. It'll be out next year. Um, it won

1114
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 1: a film festival that came out at It's about public

1115
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:31,720
Speaker 1: lands and the threats to him. Not everybody will like it,

1116
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 1: but but uh, I'm just blown away by what we got.

1117
01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 1: And I think if other people will be blown away

1118
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 1: to if they just started looking. Yeah, you know, yeah,

1119
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:47,919
Speaker 1: that's awesome. Man. I appreciate your hat. Let me talk

1120
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 1: on here because this has been interesting. You know, well,

1121
01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:55,040
Speaker 1: I appreciate what you're doing. I do, And uh, where

1122
01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:57,240
Speaker 1: can people find you? How Like they can find the

1123
01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 1: back Country and his names podcast? They can anywhere past

1124
01:05:02,200 --> 01:05:07,440
Speaker 1: It's called podcasting blasts and there's seventy episodes published so far. Um,

1125
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:09,960
Speaker 1: what's your favorite one? What could they listen to? What

1126
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:12,000
Speaker 1: would you tell them which episode? Well, my bet my

1127
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:15,560
Speaker 1: favorite ones are less less popular than most of my

1128
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:18,720
Speaker 1: favorite one was with this Stephen Pine who's written thirty

1129
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:22,800
Speaker 1: five book p y n E On Fire, and he's

1130
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:27,280
Speaker 1: he's just filled with this philosophy about wildfire and us

1131
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 1: being for instance, he said, uh, he said, photosynthesis, buyings,

1132
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:34,200
Speaker 1: things together, buyings things in the world together. They created,

1133
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:37,840
Speaker 1: they build, and fire takes them apart, and you can't

1134
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 1: have one without the other. The fire that they don't exist.

1135
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 1: They grow forever, and they they it doesn't work without fire.

1136
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:46,720
Speaker 1: So the whole world is like based on fire. And

1137
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:53,480
Speaker 1: before people evolved and found fire, Um, he said, before

1138
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:57,400
Speaker 1: we learned to cook, your brain couldn't really be larger

1139
01:05:57,520 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 1: than your digestive system. So so people's intelligence that has

1140
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:05,560
Speaker 1: allowed them to get a tighter grasp on the world

1141
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 1: is basically a result of fire. And then he just

1142
01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 1: rolls for like an hour. I think I was telling

1143
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 1: you on that podcast I was Learning to Be Quiet.

1144
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:20,120
Speaker 1: It was like, let this episode that number that was

1145
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 1: been it's only been like a month ago. Yeah, I

1146
01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:28,040
Speaker 1: actually just read a book. Who was the guy's name,

1147
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 1: b y n E. Pine? Is his last night? Did

1148
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 1: he write a book? He's written thirty five but he's

1149
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 1: got he write a book called Catching Fire probably that's

1150
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:41,200
Speaker 1: probably is. This guy wasn't. This guy wasn't a outdoors

1151
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:45,560
Speaker 1: guy though. I read a book called Catching Fire just

1152
01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 1: in the last year, and it talked about how cooked

1153
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:54,400
Speaker 1: food has more calories and uncooked food and so humans

1154
01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:58,120
Speaker 1: being able to manipulate fire. We're the only animal, were

1155
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:01,520
Speaker 1: the only the only thing that can manipulate fire, and

1156
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 1: that enables us to have the big brains. And then, yeah,

1157
01:07:09,280 --> 01:07:11,360
Speaker 1: I think that's fascinating. Yeah. One of the things he

1158
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:13,840
Speaker 1: said was, like the cribs cycle in the human cell,

1159
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:16,840
Speaker 1: which causes your body to be nine point six degrees,

1160
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:23,520
Speaker 1: you know, is simply a controlled fire explosional electronic explosion,

1161
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:26,160
Speaker 1: he saidden. And we did the same thing with a

1162
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 1: pickup truck engine and you know, and you you blow

1163
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:33,120
Speaker 1: up this you you you set fire to this gas

1164
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:38,080
Speaker 1: and then it turns the engine, allowing you to drive

1165
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:40,600
Speaker 1: your f two fifty the same thing that's going on

1166
01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:45,480
Speaker 1: in your cells. And checked that podcast. It's just really

1167
01:07:45,680 --> 01:07:48,160
Speaker 1: like it. It blew my mind and it wasn't my

1168
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:52,240
Speaker 1: other people of Tom mcguain, the novelist, he's about seventy

1169
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:55,080
Speaker 1: eight years old now. He he gave me an interview

1170
01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:57,320
Speaker 1: that he's one of the funniest people that ever lived.

1171
01:07:58,040 --> 01:08:00,240
Speaker 1: And he just rock and rolled for like an hour

1172
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 1: and thirty minutes about hunting and fishing and writing. Uh So,

1173
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:08,360
Speaker 1: check them out, and I'm gonna look, I'm gonna listening

1174
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:12,240
Speaker 1: to yours too. Listen to that one y'all recorded this morning.

1175
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:16,760
Speaker 1: It's really good. It's been a pleasure to meet you

1176
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:19,720
Speaker 1: how and fish with you today, even though I think

1177
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:22,040
Speaker 1: you had the best spot in the boat and so

1178
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 1: that's why you were catching out the fish. It was

1179
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:29,120
Speaker 1: that braided line. Man. But now, hey, we always always

1180
01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:31,120
Speaker 1: say the same thing on end the podcast. I say,

1181
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:33,639
Speaker 1: keep the wild places wild, because that's where the bears live.

1182
01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:34,559
Speaker 1: Right on, man,