1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a fascinating dude, like the way I described 2 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: in The People, because I'm like, man, it's like if 3 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: you took Django Unchained and Daniel Boone and like mixed 4 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: it together. Right On this episode of the Bear Grease Podcast, 5 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 1: I want to introduce you to the life of the 6 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: man that President Theodore Roosevelt said quote was the greatest 7 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: hunter and guide I have ever known. This man has 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: been gone from this earth since nineteen thirty six. There 9 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: are no video or audio recordings of him. We do 10 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: have roughly thirteen photographs, six articles written about him, and 11 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: the first hand accounts of those who knew him, including 12 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt. Many believe this man's legacy deserves to be 13 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: on the American pedestal with the likes of Daniel Boone 14 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: and Davy Crockett, and some might even suggest he stand 15 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: with the great African American civil rights pioneers of the 16 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: early twentieth century based upon the standing he had in 17 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: society and the life he lived. However, his life is 18 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: riddled with mystery and controversy. But if you're like me, 19 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: after you've been exposed to the energy, audacity, and bravery 20 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: of this life, you'll never ever forget the name Holt 21 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: call Your I'm in search of understanding who Holpe Callier was, 22 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: and all the questions that will still have after we 23 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: know everything we can know. I really doubt that you're 24 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: gonna want to miss this one. This name whole Callier 25 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: keeps coming up, and who is this person? I just 26 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: I had no idea, and as I dug and Doug 27 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: and I found all these other stories that were part 28 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: of his life, multiple chapters in his life, the fact 29 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: that he was connected to the Hinds family, that Andrew Jackson, 30 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: to all the prominent families from down in the Natchez district, 31 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: and nothing had ever been definitive, had ever been written 32 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: about him. My name is Clay Nukelem, and this is 33 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: the Bear Grease Podcast, where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, 34 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: search for insight and unlikely places, and where we'll tell 35 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: the story of Americans who lived their lives close to 36 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 1: the land. Presented by f HF Gear American Maid, purpose 37 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,839 Speaker 1: built hunting and fishing gear that's designed to be as 38 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: rugged as the places we explore. I haven't and I never, 39 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: of course, no way from me ever to have even 40 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: met Whole called you, but to know what kind of 41 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: man he was, And I've said he was a man 42 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,119 Speaker 1: amongst men. I mean, to sit down with a president, 43 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,959 Speaker 1: to shit down with some of the titans of industry 44 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: and law, business, and to be respected the way he was. 45 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: That says so much to me in today's time. And 46 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: I've said before, and it's something that we don't think 47 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: could have happened, but it did. And it's because of 48 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: the integrity and the matter and the meat of who 49 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: Hope call your wash. As Roosevelt said, he was a 50 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: man of sixty that couldn't either read nor write. Yet 51 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: he had the dignity of an African king. And if 52 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: you look at pictures of Hope, you see that in him. 53 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: Throughout the course of this conversation, my hope is that 54 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: will all see Holt call your I believe that within 55 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: his life are the keys to some relevant lessons. I 56 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: don't want to bury the hook too deep on the story, 57 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: because I'm dying to tell you the bullet points of 58 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: Holt's life. He was born a slave, and at the 59 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: age of fourteen, he joined the Confederate Army and fought 60 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: with distinction the entirety of the Civil War. And afterwards 61 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: he became a market black bear hunter. After the Civil War, 62 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,239 Speaker 1: he killed a white man in Mississippi, but no charges 63 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: were pressed, and was later accused of killing another one, 64 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: but was acquitted for the murder. He hobb nobbed with 65 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 1: some of the most powerful men in the Delta, gaining 66 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 1: their loyalty and trust. But what he's most known for 67 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:38,559 Speaker 1: is guiding the then sitting President, Theodore Roosevelt on two 68 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: bear hunts in the Mississippi Delta and gaining his friendship 69 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 1: and respect. Holt Collier lasso to bear and tied it 70 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: to the tree for the President, who refused to shoot it, 71 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: and from this the press coined the term teddy bear, 72 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: which has become a global term. And it would have 73 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: never happened if it wasn't for the creative grit a 74 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: black man from Mississippi named Holt Collyer. He was rough, 75 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: but polished, ruthlessly loyal, and he navigated the Antebellum and 76 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: post Bellum South with an uncanny confidence, skill and grace. Undoubtedly, 77 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: holtz life doesn't fit into anybody's mold, and I think 78 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: that's what qualifies him as a great American. He lived 79 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: an almost unbelievable life. You could take every ten years 80 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 1: of this guy's life and look at what he's what 81 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 1: he was doing, and it would be you know, movie 82 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: worthy or bookworthy or story worthy. And so you take 83 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: his life in its entirety, especially as long as it was, 84 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: and it's it's just kind of it's hard to fathom 85 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: how a person puts that much stuff into a life, 86 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: especially with everything you know he had going against him. 87 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,119 Speaker 1: Holt Collyer was born a slave in eighteen forty six 88 00:05:56,120 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: in Jefferson County, Mississippi, within the floodplain of the Rate 89 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 1: Father of Waters the Mississippi River. He appeared on planet 90 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: Earth fourteen years before the Civil War, a war that 91 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: would greatly impact his life in multiple ways. Time is 92 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: a ruthless master, eroding the answers and shrouding the truth 93 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: in a haze of mystery. We have accurate data on 94 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: his life. Much of what he actually told us is 95 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: the data we have, which would seemingly be enough to 96 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: make some profound conclusions of his motivations. But I think 97 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: we'll see that holtz world was very complex. But who 98 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: was Holt Collier to describe? Hope? He was a refined man, 99 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: yet could not read nor right, a superbe sportsman, a 100 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: contriment outdoorsman, I will say, a gentleman, and a man 101 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: among men that could go anywhere, be among any type 102 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: of person. He knew what respect was and he commanded respect. 103 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: You know, Uh, vonna slave yet road with the Texas 104 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: Cavalry and the Confederate Armed Services during the Civil War. Uh, 105 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 1: there was no reason for him to bow his head 106 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: to anyone. And I will call you. That was the 107 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: voice of writer, Delta historian, and river rat hankber died 108 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: though he never knew him. He is one of the 109 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: men who has worked tirelessly to preserve the memory and 110 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,239 Speaker 1: the legacy of Hulk Collier. The other voice you've heard 111 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: is my friend and fellow are Kans and Jonathan Wilkins. 112 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: He's a writer, a chef, a waterfowl outfitter who lives 113 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: in hunts in the Delta. After being exposed to hold 114 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: story as a black hunter in the South, he studied 115 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: Holt's life with particular interests. We're going to dial in 116 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: on the details we have about Holt. Here's Jonathan. I'd 117 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:08,119 Speaker 1: say that you know, Holt Collier is one of, if 118 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: not the greatest American Southern big game hunter, one of 119 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: the most prolific black bear hunters I think we could 120 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: assume has ever lived. Born under the guise of enslavement 121 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: in eighteen forty six in Mississippi. So we've established he 122 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: was a black man born into slavery and became a 123 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: great bear hunter. He had legitimate records indicating he killed 124 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: over three thousand bears in his lifetime, presumably more than 125 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 1: our broad Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett combined. But the 126 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: wildest thing mentioned so far is that he fought with 127 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: the Confederate Army, and an effort to completely over clarify, 128 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: the Confederate Army was the armed forces of the southern 129 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: portion of the United States that seceded from the United 130 00:08:55,160 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: States on December sixty and this newly formed government was 131 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: in favor of keeping the institution of slavery legal. The 132 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: Northern Army of the United States was against slavery. We're 133 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: going to expend a lot of energy trying to understand 134 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: Holt's motivation in his unusual loyalty to the South, But 135 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 1: to be fair, we've got to say they're all conjecture. 136 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: Here's Jonathan, you know, that's the That's the thing about life. 137 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: It's rarely as binary as as human beings like to 138 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: make it right. Like I, I still don't have a 139 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: handle on on Collier's motivations for some of his actions. 140 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: You know, I have suspicions that are you know, and 141 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: these are informed by my life and my perspectives and 142 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: how I understand the world. He's a fascinating dude, like 143 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,079 Speaker 1: the way I described the people, because I'm like, man, 144 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: it's like if you took Django Unchained and Daniel Boone 145 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: and like mixed it together, right, Because there's there's so 146 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: many there's so many facets of the guy's life that 147 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: like that don't make sense as far as kind of 148 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: the assertions of himself that he was able to make right, 149 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: especially you're talking about within a society that is foundationally 150 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: built upon him not being able to assert himself right, 151 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: him not being able to be an authority, him not 152 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 1: being able to thrive, you know, for all intents and purposes, 153 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: especially for the time period, he was more financially successful 154 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 1: than you know, almost any other black people around. You know, 155 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: he enjoyed great longevity, He enjoyed you know, kind of 156 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: high social standing in a society where black men, you know, 157 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: that was not something that was available to them. Then 158 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: to the point that he interacts, he interacts with the 159 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: seminal American figure, you know, American political figure in such 160 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: an influential way that twenty one years later you have 161 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: this legacy of the Teddy Bear that has touched pretty 162 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: much every American you know. I'd argue probably a large 163 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: percentage of the world. It's familiar with the Teddy Bearer. 164 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: But again, like no one knows who this guy is. 165 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: No one knows who this guy is. Have you ever 166 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: heard of Hault Collyer. I'm walking down the street in 167 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:21,319 Speaker 1: downtown Jackson, Mississippi. The dome of the state Capitol is 168 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: directly at my back. I slip a breath mat in 169 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: my mouth as I push open the door of a 170 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: swanky office building. I'm told by the receptionist the man 171 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 1: I'm looking for is on the mezzanine floor, which is 172 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: an odd architectural term used to describe a floor between 173 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: the first and second floor as in a building. It's 174 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: an odd and unfamiliar term to me, kind of like 175 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: Hulk Collyer's life. I'm looking for a lawyer named minor 176 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: if Buchanon. It would be easy to say that he's 177 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: been the bulwark of preserving Hulk Collyer's legacy in modern times. 178 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: He's traveled across the country to give presentations about Holt. 179 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,199 Speaker 1: He commissioned the painting of a watercolor print of Holt 180 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: on his horse. But his biggest contribution is that he's 181 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: written the only book in existence dedicated to hold Collier, 182 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: aptly titled Holt Collier Minor. Will be our primary guide 183 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: through the details of this story. Here's how he got 184 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: interested in Holt. It's a circuitous tale. I am a 185 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: native Mississippian, born and raised here as Holt was, and 186 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: if you're familiar with his story, you know it's epic. 187 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: It's an absolutely epic story. But I had never heard 188 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: his name. And I was visiting with my children the 189 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: Memphis Zoo in nine We got in a rush. We 190 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: were in the Bay exhibit and we had to go 191 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: meet somebody and we had to leave, and I was 192 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: in a little bit of a hurry. So I grabbed 193 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: my five year old daughter and I said, We've got 194 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: to go, and she says, wait a minute, daddy, I 195 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 1: haven't seen the Teddy Bear. She thought that Teddy Bear 196 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: was real, and I didn't even think when I said, 197 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: I said, honey, I'm that Teddy Bear is not real. 198 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: It's just a toy. And she broke into tears. I 199 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: may as well as shot the Easter Bunny in front 200 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: of her, you know, and uh, she broke into tears. 201 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: But when she got her composer, she said, well, if 202 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: it's not real, where did it come from? Now? I 203 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: had heard these human entrant stories that would get published 204 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: in the newspaper, in the magazine about once a year 205 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: that Theodore Roosevelt had come to Mississippi for a bear hunt, 206 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: and that's where the Teddy Bear got started. But that's 207 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: really all it was, ever was. So I'm I promised 208 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: her I'd make a bedtime story out of it. My 209 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: law offices downtown Jackson, right across street from the Department 210 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: of Archives and History, and I knew those people pretty well. 211 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 1: So sure enough, I was good for my promise and 212 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: went over to the archives, walked over there, and there's 213 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: a subject file on the Theodore Roosevelt hunt. As I'm 214 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: getting into this subject file went on the Teddy Bear, 215 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: another one on Theodore Roosevelt. This name whole Callyer keeps 216 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: coming up, and who is this person? I just had 217 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: no idea, And as I dug and Doug and I 218 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: found all these other stories that were part of his life, 219 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: multiple chapters in his life. The fact that he was 220 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: connected to the Hinds family, to the Andrew Jackson, to 221 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: all the prominent families from down in the Natchez district, 222 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: and nothing had ever been definitive, had ever been written 223 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: about him. I decided to make a book project, and 224 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: it came out in two thousand two, which was a 225 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: hundred anniversary of the nineteen o two Teddy Bear hunt. 226 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: So this bedtime story goal turned into a book project. Yeah. 227 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: She was five years old when she asked me where 228 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: the teddy bear came from? When when the book came out, 229 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: she was a junior. She was probably satisfied that you 230 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: wrote a great book on the whole thing. Yeah, but 231 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: she was a freshman freshman of college when he came 232 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: in in nineteen eighty nine. Miner began his research on 233 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: Whole Callier and the book was sell published in two 234 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: thousand two, after being rejected by a few university publishing presses, 235 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: perhaps because of the controversial nature of Holtz life. Perhaps 236 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: it's because he was a black man who fought for 237 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: the Confederate army. That's a complex story to tell in 238 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: today's society. It's very quick to see that Minor didn't 239 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: write this book on a whim or with the hope 240 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: of creating a New York Times bestseller. It evolved out 241 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: of a genuine curiosity and morphed into a decade long 242 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: project of trailing a man's life whose story was bypassed 243 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: by the world. I'm incredibly grateful for those who do 244 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: work like this. I've read a lot of self published books, 245 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: and I was impressed by the amount of research and 246 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: corroboration of the information in the book. It's well written, 247 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: but still no one fully is able to understand wholtz situation. 248 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: So what do we know about Wold Collyer's earliest days? 249 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting sometimes with these you know an 250 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: enslaved person, A lot of times you don't have a 251 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: lot of information. But with Hope, we have a fair 252 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: bit of information about his upbringing. What do we know 253 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: about his childhood? Well, let me make a comment on 254 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: what you just said. When somebody's born there, enslaved there, 255 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: they lived during this period of time. It's hard to 256 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: find information about him. It's impossible to find an image 257 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: of them. For instance, Robert Johnson, the famous blues player, 258 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: I think there's only one, maybe two images of him, 259 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: and he lived in a time when cameras were pretty prevalent. 260 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: Whole Caryer was born in eighteen forty six, died in 261 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty six at the age of ninety, and I 262 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: think I found thirteen images of him. I thought was incredible. 263 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: Polt lived to be ninety years old, which is hard 264 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: to believe when you hear of the skirmishes with death 265 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: that he avoided. I want to hear from Jonathan Wilkins 266 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: about this very thing we just wrought up why some 267 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: of these African American figures are so undocumented by pop culture. 268 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 1: My personal hope is that I can truly listen to 269 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,920 Speaker 1: people with unique and different perspectives than mine, and over 270 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: the years, Jonathan has often helped me do just that. Well. 271 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 1: I mean, that's you know, that's kind of the American way, right, 272 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 1: like we we footnote the black people in this country 273 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: that have have done important things right, like he's he's 274 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: he's phenomenal. But I you know, I wonder how many 275 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: other phenomenal and brilliant and like just incredibly interesting stories 276 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,719 Speaker 1: will never know. I'll give you like a good reference 277 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: point for this. So oftentimes they talk about the the 278 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: first film ever made, right, and it's this little tiny 279 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: snippet and it's a black guy riding a horse. All right. 280 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: No one knows the black guy's name, but they preserve 281 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: the horse's name. You know. I bet you that a 282 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: lot of people don't know that the White House was 283 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: built by slaves. You know, history is written by the victors. 284 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, it's just it's it's just 285 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: kind of like it's the story of America. Really, I 286 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: think what Jonathan is saying is true. It's powerful and 287 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: interesting stuff. Here's how Minors started his first research on 288 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: Wholk Collier. When I first started my research, I couldn't 289 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: find anybody that ever heard of Whole Callier unless they 290 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 1: were from Washington, Kent. When I first learned about him, 291 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: I said, well, maybe some people in these nursing homes 292 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 1: will remember him. Because I started my research in nineteen 293 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: eighty nine and he died in nineteen thirty six, it's 294 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: possible that somebody remembers Whole care Thank god I started 295 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 1: my research when I did, because I found about six 296 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: people who remembered whole callier really who had met him, 297 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,719 Speaker 1: Oh knew him. They were children, they knew him as 298 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: an old man. And one of them was the most amazing. 299 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 1: His recall was perfect. He was he was as smart 300 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: as a whip. He could remember everything about the whole car. 301 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 1: His name was Pete Johnson, and Pete owned the liquor 302 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: store in Los Angeles. And I had gone up to Greenville, 303 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: and people knew I was doing this research and I 304 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: was trying to find folks. And the first person I 305 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: met was Jane Weather. She was a widow who part 306 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: of the Metcalf family and she's she was ninety four 307 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: years old, and she remembered Holt very well. He had 308 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: lived there on their place, and she gave me a 309 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 1: lot of information on him. Soon after that, about a 310 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: month or two after that, I get this telephone call 311 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: from a friend who's helped me out, and he says, Minor, 312 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: you need to write this down. Pete Johnson gave me 313 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: his telephone number out in Los Angeles. He had just 314 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: come home to Greenville, Mississippi. He had been raised there 315 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: as a child, and he was trying to get some 316 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: statue or some memory or a park named after whole Car. 317 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:56,719 Speaker 1: So I got on the phone and talked to him. 318 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: I ended up talking to Pete Johnson probably ten or 319 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,479 Speaker 1: twelve of hours interviewing him over the phone. He had 320 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 1: been raised right next door the Whole Car. His Whole 321 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: Car is an old man sitting on his front porch, 322 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: telling his stories about bear hunt with Theodore Roosevelt, by 323 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,400 Speaker 1: the Civil War, escapades about killing men after the war 324 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: and not being prosecuted for it, and and and what 325 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: I loved Pete Johnson telling me was it all the 326 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 1: children of the neighbors before television and really before radio, 327 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: but all the children in the neighborhood would come up 328 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: there as the son's going down and say, you know, 329 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: Mr Hotels, some stories tell Uncle Holt, they call him. 330 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 1: But before whole Care sitting on his front porch, almost 331 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 1: blind at this say, before he would tell him the stories, 332 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: he would make them put their pennies together and go 333 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: down the street that you know with the little corner 334 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: grocery thing, and make them buy him a plug of 335 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: tobaccup and a knee high orange And when they bring 336 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: that plug in the back and knee high orange. He'd 337 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: sit there and talk to him for until the parents, 338 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: until the parents called him home, a plug of tobacco 339 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 1: and a knee high orange. It's stories like this that 340 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't be in the national newspaper article, but they give 341 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: you a feel for the man. I'm grateful for people 342 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: like Minor who took the time to document the last 343 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: remaining people on planet Earth who knew Uncle Holt. Now 344 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: we're going to get into Holt's early life history. Hold 345 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: was born down there in Jefferson County at a place 346 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: called home Hill Plantation, just a few about four miles 347 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: out of Fayette. Who was born to the Hines family, 348 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: best known for General Thomas Hines, who served with Andrew 349 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: Jackson at the Battle of New Orleans. Was uh in 350 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: the United States Congress, elected in eight same year Andrew 351 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: Jackson was elected president. Was was a friend of Jackson, 352 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: was a friend of the all the prominent people in 353 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: that area down Air Marshton Green and so Holt was 354 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: born into affluent circumstances, although he's enslaved and he's part 355 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:16,479 Speaker 1: of the labor class, and his father had served with 356 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: General Thomas Hines as a man servant at the Battle 357 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: of New Orleans, so they were closely connected. He was 358 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: not a These were not field hands and were not 359 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: people working in the field. And holtz mother served the 360 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: main house and I don't know as a cook or 361 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: seamstress of what. And when Holt got to be old enough, 362 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: they put him in charge of the horses and the dogs. 363 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: They were big hunters, and that's what hold did. He 364 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: started out hunting from from a very early age, and 365 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: he knew the horses and he knew the dogs. Holt 366 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: was enslaved, and inside that system he worked in close 367 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: proximity to his slave owners, the Hines family, who were 368 00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: part of the powerful southern aristocracy of the region. They 369 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: had even been friends with the former president Andrew Jackson. 370 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: Here's Jonathan describing Holt's early life. I mean, so prior 371 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: to the Civil War, he's living on this Hines plantation 372 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: and this is basically a this is a Mississippi plantation 373 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 1: that's like literally hacked out of the wilderness. Right they 374 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: talk about like basically this is just a malaria infested swamp. 375 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: You know, essentially what is a you know, American jungle, right, 376 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,719 Speaker 1: So human beings have to go in there and cut 377 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: and hack and channelized stuff and drain it out. And 378 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: so he's born to servitude. You know, his family has 379 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,360 Speaker 1: been enslaved for multiple generations by the Hines family. He's 380 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: born into that family. He's born into that system of enslavement. 381 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: You know, I guess on the plantation his family had, 382 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 1: you know, a slightly higher position than maybe some of 383 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: some of the other enslaved people, which is, to my 384 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: mind is a is a very dangerous distinction to make 385 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: because it and imply is that it makes a situation 386 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: not what it was. Right. But he's kind of this 387 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: family of house slaves, you know, I guess we'd be 388 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: the colloquialism for it. And around ten years old he 389 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: kills his first bear. So even for that to happen, 390 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: he's got to have some access that other enslaved people 391 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 1: don't have, right, He's got to have access to weapons. 392 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: He's got to have access, you know, or the ability 393 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: to go out into the wilderness. And so I think 394 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: he's he's probably showing himself to be an extraordinary human 395 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: being from a very young age. Killing a bear that 396 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: young is an impressive feat from a sportsman standpoint, But 397 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: of more note is that a young slave boy would 398 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: have had a gun and been able to hunt. Here's 399 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: Minor developing the context for holtz life. One of the 400 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: unusual things about the Mississippi Delta is it flooding almost 401 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 1: every every year, which prohibited raising any kind of livestock. 402 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: There was no meat source, but you had this labor 403 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: coming in and they had to be fed, so you 404 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: had to get this protein the food through hunting. And uh. 405 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: But anyway, Holt goes up there and he's, uh, this 406 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: is about eighteen fifty six, and he's given a shotgun 407 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: hist his instructions. After he takes care of the dogs 408 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: and the horses, his instructions will go out into the 409 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: woods and kill anything and everything that's edible, whether it's 410 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 1: an alligator, whether it's a duck, whether it's a bear. 411 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: He killed his first bear at an age of ten, 412 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:34,120 Speaker 1: and that was his job. Here's Jonathan with more details 413 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: of where this wild game meat went. In very short 414 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: order in his life, basically becomes a meat hunter for 415 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 1: this plantation. So he's doing two things. He's procuring what 416 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,160 Speaker 1: would be considered top shelf meat for the plantation owners 417 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: and then like the leftovers and the less desirable meat 418 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 1: is being used as a way to supplement the foodstuffs 419 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: of the enslaved people there, right, So Holt is getting 420 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: an education and horsemanship, being a houndsman, shooting and being 421 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: a general hunter in the swamps of Mississippi. Later in 422 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: this series, we're going to learn that this was common 423 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 1: for some sector of the slaves to become incredible hunters. 424 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: Here's minor turns out Holt was a heck of a shot. 425 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: So that's what hold did. Then, how he became such 426 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: a proficient marksman that when his right shoulder would be 427 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: too sore and he'd complain about it, Howard Haines made 428 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 1: him shoot with his left shoulder. Became a proficient marksman 429 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: his right shoulder and his left shoulder. There were times 430 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 1: how Heins, on a yearly basis, would travel up and 431 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: down the river to go up into Kentucky. But how 432 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: Haines was a gambler and a sportsman, and that he 433 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: always went to the races and they always had shooting events, 434 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: clay pigeon type shooting events, and Holt and how Heins 435 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: had this routine where the men would challenge each other 436 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: to a shooting contest and how Hens would shame somebody 437 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,679 Speaker 1: who's willing to bet money and saying, hey, my my 438 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,919 Speaker 1: servant boy over here is only ten years only he 439 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: can outshoot you and old and they would build odds 440 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,120 Speaker 1: and then Hold go out there and beat him and 441 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: make howl. Henes a lot of money. And we were 442 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: fortunate enough to find that documentation. And uh, they dressed 443 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: Hold up and find clothing, bought him good boots and 444 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: hold in his later interviews in life, would tell about 445 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: how when he'd get up there to Cincinnati, Ohio and 446 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: places like that, he actually the city went to Brighton 447 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: Beach one time, which was in New York. Uh. He 448 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: says that people would try to get him to run 449 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: away because he's in a free state and he could 450 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: run away, and he always refused. He says that there's 451 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: no way I could have a better life up here 452 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: than I have down there. And that's that's that's Holds 453 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: interviews when he's in his eighties, he's telling Holt was 454 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: interviewed later in life, and it is the subject of 455 00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: I believe it's six or seven major magazine articles during 456 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: his lifetime, and that would have been prior to the 457 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 1: Great White Hope Jim Johnson, the boxing great. I always 458 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: hear that he's he's the first man of African descent 459 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: sportsman to become a national figure. But hold, these magazine 460 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,640 Speaker 1: articles actually came out on the hold. The first ones 461 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: came out immediately after the nineteen o two hunt, and 462 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: there's a second hunt in nineteen oh seven. Magazine articles 463 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: came out then, So hold was well, well say, well, no, 464 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: he was in the articles that I read in nineteen 465 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: or to a nineteen o seven There's more. Just Holts 466 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: mentioned more in those articles, and Roosevelt is Minor is 467 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: saying that Holk Collyer was potentially America's first African American 468 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: national sporting figure. Why don't we all know who this 469 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: guy is? Let's now begin to answer an even bigger question. 470 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: How did a fourteen year old Hulk Collyer end in 471 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: the Civil War? This is the way Holt told the story. 472 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: Here's Minor the time the Civil War broke out. Howell Haines, 473 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: who's adult in his forties. Now, Howell has his young 474 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: son named Thomas Haines would be a junior named after 475 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: his grandfather, who's in his twenties. Will both of them 476 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: sign up to join the Confederacy and Hold because of 477 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: the stories he's been told by his father following his 478 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: master into battle. Being a man servant, Holt wants to go. 479 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: He desperately wants to go with Howel and Thomas Haines 480 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: into the Confederacy and served as a as a valet. Well, 481 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: they told him he couldn't go. He was a very 482 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: small frame kid, and uh, and they just told him 483 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: he's not going. He saw them leave the plantation and 484 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: he's and he's just not gonna put up with it. 485 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: So he puts together a little sack of belongings. There 486 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: are a string of riverboats on the landing in Greenville, 487 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: which is where the Hineses are going to report, and 488 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: Hold makes his way through the swamp to get to 489 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: that landing because he doesn't want to get caught. He's 490 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: down runaway slave, and so he gets on one of 491 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: those riverboats and he becomes a stowaway. He talks about 492 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 1: how somebody allowed him to be a stowaway, and they 493 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: go up river to Memphis, Tennessee, and so you've got 494 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: no telling how many steamboats are pulling up there, and 495 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: how Heins and Thomas Heimes are standing there talking to 496 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: some Confederate general and Thomas Nudges is how how heines 497 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: and says, Dad, look at that, you're not gonna believe it. 498 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,239 Speaker 1: And they see Hold walking up to him, and they realize, well, 499 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: we're not gonna send you back, so you're gonna be 500 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: the days of travel away from his home, right, So 501 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: they said, okay, Hold, you can have your way. You're 502 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: gonna go ahead, and so he becomes in essence of Valet. 503 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: So Holt was left in Mississippi but snuck to the 504 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: battleground following how heinz and he is allowed to stay. 505 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: Hold then travels with the army into Kentucky and has 506 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 1: given a job as a hospital orderly and as he 507 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: told the story, one day he was working and he 508 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: heard some gunshots in the distance, so he grabbed a 509 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: gun and ran towards the gunfire. He proceeds to actively 510 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: partake in the battle with the men in his company 511 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: and immediately gained their respect. The story goes on, and 512 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: they allowed him to carry a long gun with him 513 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: from then on, and they made fun of him because 514 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: he was, you know, where's that little kid going with 515 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: that big long gun kind of thing. He worked proudly 516 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: and he was at Shilloh. His description of the Battle 517 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: of Shallow is dead on. You know, Holton never learned 518 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: to read write, so who ever could even write his 519 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: own name, never could even write his own name sign 520 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: it with an next. So when I'm reading an interview 521 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: of Whole Carrier late in life and he's describing the 522 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: death of Albert Sidney Johnson, which was well documented in 523 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: multiple sources, and he describes exactly what happened, there's no 524 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: question in my mind that he's telling the truth. That 525 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: he actually all Outbret Sidney Johnson. He didn't read it anywhere, 526 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 1: He didn't read it anywhere. As a historical writer, Minor 527 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,479 Speaker 1: was interested in getting the story right. Often in history, 528 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: much of what we have to go on is simply 529 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: oral stories passed down which we know can easily be 530 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: shifted over time. Again, lucky for us, Halt was interviewed 531 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: multiple times later in his life. So after after Shallow, 532 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: both howl Heines and young Thomas Hains were there with 533 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: him at Shallow, and howl Heins and Young Thomas Hains 534 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: have seen enough. If you're familiar with the Battle of Shallow, 535 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: it was an absolute blood bath. Nothing had been seen 536 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: like that on the North American continent. Nothing had been 537 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: saying like that since the age of Napoleon. And it 538 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: was just it was horrible. Even Grant said, you could 539 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: walk across the field, you know, a hundred yards without 540 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: stepping on anything but dead bodies. The brutality of the 541 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: Civil War was unprecedented in modern war on the North 542 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: American continent. And I say modern war because it's believed 543 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: that as many as twenty million Native Americans died from 544 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: disease after the arrival of the Europeans. Modern estimates of 545 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: the Civil War believed that six hundred and fifty to 546 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: eight hundred and fifty thousand Americans died during that five 547 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: year period. In the past, it was believed to be lower. Oddly, 548 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: the casualties of the Union Army were substantially more than 549 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: the Confederate army, but records during the time give dim 550 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: light to the facts. The bottom line is that holtz 551 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: life was impacted by the difficulty of this time. So 552 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: on with the story, how and Thomas Hines leave the battlefield? 553 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: How requests from his personal friend Jefferson Davis, the President 554 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: of the Confederacy, to be made Provost Marshal of Jefferson 555 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: County and Thomas his son basically deserts the Confederate Army. 556 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: This is where things get interesting because they give Holt 557 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: a decision, and they looked at Holt and said, who 558 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: do you you? Which one of us do you want 559 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: to go with or do you want to stay? Well, 560 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: at that point in time, since he had been in 561 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: Corinth for several weeks, he admit this group of young 562 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: soldiers who had come in from Texas, and he had 563 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,720 Speaker 1: gotten to be buddies with him. These are all fourteen fifteen, 564 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: sixteen year old kids who joined the Confederacy. They were 565 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: under the command of Van Dorn and holding. These kids 566 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: got to be friends, and they said, I'd rather stay 567 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 1: with these Texas boys. Isn't that an incredible amount of 568 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: agency that they would have given Holt For an owner 569 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 1: to tell someone, you know, an enslaved person, Hey, what 570 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: do you want to do? You want to go back 571 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: with us? Do you want to stay here and fight? 572 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: I think at that point in time, it's very possible 573 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: that the Times said, if we can't contribute to the 574 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: Confederate College, we can give this boy up to fight 575 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,760 Speaker 1: for the Confederation and that'll be that will be our contribution. 576 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 1: And I have no idea what motivated them, and I've 577 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 1: had the same question as crossed my mind. But they 578 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: allowed him to stay, so he stayed with not only 579 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: allowed can not only allowed him to stay, Holines gave 580 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 1: him a horse and gave him a side arm. And 581 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: from that moment forward, you got this young black kid 582 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 1: armed with his own horse in the Confederacy. This is 583 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 1: a wild image in a critical moment and Holp Collyer's life. 584 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: He joins the ninth Texas Cavalry, which is a horseback 585 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: roving unit of the Confederate Army, and they become a 586 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 1: notorious outfit. I want to read some quotes from your 587 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,319 Speaker 1: book about these guys. There were multiple descriptions of what 588 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: they did. One guy said that they were the best 589 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: horseman in the world. That was a quote. Another quote 590 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 1: was that they were common guerrilla outlaws and that they 591 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 1: were they were rude flists towards Union sympathizers. So, I mean, 592 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: these guys were pretty bad, dude. If you were a 593 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: Yankee sympathizer, it's very likely you would be tried and executed. 594 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: And when they would execute somebody, they were disposed of 595 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,720 Speaker 1: the body by throwing them in the swamp and covering 596 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: the body up with some cut cane. When somebody find 597 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,720 Speaker 1: a body disposed of like that, they knew that company 598 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: out of the night Texas cab had been through there, 599 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,399 Speaker 1: and there would be a reason. But they didn't like sympathizers. 600 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: But these guys kill their own. There's one account where 601 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: two young men from Texas have robbed a citizen, which 602 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 1: is not unusual, but they lined them up on creek 603 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: back and shot him. Their all men, So they treat 604 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: everybody equally. I'll give them that. Here's hankberd Dye with 605 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:52,879 Speaker 1: information on a very interesting request to hold from a 606 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: very powerful Confederate general. He had been asked by Nathan Bedford, 607 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 1: ours General Farrest, to ride with him. He won't hold 608 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: a ride with him. He heard about holding Colonel hin 609 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,800 Speaker 1: whoever worded at the time, said that's up to Hope 610 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,879 Speaker 1: Holt soldier. I can't say what he does, what he's 611 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: gonna do, that's up to him. And when the request 612 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: got down to Hope, Hope sent the answer or demeral 613 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: farre should he appreciated awful, but he'd already ride when 614 00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: the bars from Texas. He thinks he's just gonna tick 615 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 1: with them. There are so many unique overlaps of Holtz 616 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: life with odd characters in history. Nathan Bedford Forrest is 617 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 1: an extremely controversial figure, but he can't be understood in 618 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: the sound bite. So here's what I've got for you. 619 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: Forrest was known as a brilliant Calvary strategist, and he 620 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 1: once also took some heat for killing some Union soldiers 621 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 1: after they had surrendered. But the biggest strike on his 622 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: record is that he was the first grand Wizard of 623 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 1: the clue Klux Klan and originally helped the organization grow, 624 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 1: but as a green check on his record, years later 625 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: he withdrew from the KKK and he issued a letter 626 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,280 Speaker 1: calling for the dissolution of the clan, and he denied 627 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: that he'd ever been a member, and in a public 628 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: speech in eighteen seventy five in Memphis, he said he 629 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 1: believed that black should be able to vote and their 630 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:25,279 Speaker 1: lives elevated. I don't know, but I do know that 631 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: he requested our Brohlt Collier to ride with him because 632 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: Holt was bad to the bone, and this twenty year 633 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 1: old black man turned him down. I like the boldness 634 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: of it. Here's more from Hank on the ninth Texas Cavalry. 635 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:47,760 Speaker 1: Now the beauty of Holt riding with the ninth Texas Covery, 636 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,759 Speaker 1: holy little guys out of Texas. They were the wildest, wiriest, 637 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: craziest little things you've ever seen. Could ride a horsh 638 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: like lightning. One of the things that they did they 639 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 1: would urdle a tree with two six shooters as they 640 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 1: would run around the tree at a wide open galloping space, 641 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,000 Speaker 1: shooting into the tree. I hope you gotta understand and 642 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 1: remember that he was running the best horsemen around. He 643 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 1: raised on a horse. He would he would go and 644 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 1: race horses all up in Kentucky and definitely, and he 645 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,399 Speaker 1: was in charge of He worked at a stable when 646 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: he was young, and he took care of hounds. But 647 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: he also he was in charge of him. He was 648 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,799 Speaker 1: the hustler, hustler so to speak, which takes care of 649 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,760 Speaker 1: all the animals on the place. Plus he was given 650 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: that Webley Scott shotgun to kill as much game as 651 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,839 Speaker 1: he could to feed the plantation. And he was an 652 00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: expert marksman. Hold wasn't a great big man. He wasn't 653 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: a slight man, but he wasn't a huge big, bulky 654 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: kind of guy. He could get around, and he did. 655 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: Holtz involvement with this rough gang of horsemen out of 656 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 1: Texas Impacts, and this was a wild and chaotic time period. 657 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: Once Holt went under cover like Brent Reeves to bus 658 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:07,839 Speaker 1: some bad outlaws, there's a wonderful story. It was just 659 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: outlaw haveing back then. You didn't know who to trust. 660 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: You'd be lucky to get to go to bed at night. 661 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 1: There were outlaws roaming everywhere. And there was a fellow 662 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: who lived on an island seventy six. And the islands 663 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 1: are numbered in the Mississippi River, and they're numbered going 664 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,720 Speaker 1: down river up from where the confluence of the Ohio 665 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: River and the Mississippi River. So the first island south 666 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,760 Speaker 1: of that would be number one, and then the second 667 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: island would be number two, et cetera. Coming on down, 668 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,319 Speaker 1: there's a fell out there who's who sells timber that 669 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: you got all these Union gunboats coming up and down 670 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: the river, and and he's he's going he's making raids. 671 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 1: He's an outlaw, and he's making raids into the interior 672 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: of the Mississippi Delta, stealing livestock, stealing the slaves, of 673 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: burning houses. And they approached company out of the night 674 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: Texas Cavalry, and they say, we got to do something 675 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 1: with this felt. It's kind of a reunion with how 676 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: Heinz and whole car here. And they come up with 677 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 1: a plan and they say, well, let's put Hold out 678 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 1: there on this island and he'll be a spy and 679 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:13,879 Speaker 1: he'll come back into two or three days and tell 680 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,040 Speaker 1: us where all the buildings are, where everybody is, where 681 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 1: the weapons are kept. That kind because there would have 682 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,359 Speaker 1: been there would have been slaves on that island, and 683 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,279 Speaker 1: Holt could come in acting like a runaway, acting like 684 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 1: a runaway, and that's exactly what happened. Hope went out 685 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: there and he stayed with on this island for two 686 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:30,839 Speaker 1: or three days, and he came back and he gave 687 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,319 Speaker 1: his report, and then Hold went in with him, and 688 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 1: how the Hens joined him, and they went in on 689 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 1: these very quiet at night, and it was a raid 690 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,879 Speaker 1: and they killed a bunch of people, and they took 691 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 1: the four main characters who lived on the island who 692 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: were part of his outlaw gang, and and strung him 693 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,800 Speaker 1: up and hum And that was in of Milford alan 694 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 1: Co I believe his name was Holtz saw some wild 695 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 1: stuff in the ninth Texas Calvary, and you can infer 696 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: it's influenced by the gunfights he get into later in 697 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 1: his life. Here's the end of Holt's career as a soldier. 698 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 1: At the end of the war, Holt says that, uh, 699 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,920 Speaker 1: he he mustered out in Vicksburg, and uh, I have 700 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:18,959 Speaker 1: no reason to doubt that he ends up going back 701 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 1: to What does that mean? Well, you muster in and 702 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: you must out. That's what you're signed in. And he 703 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,480 Speaker 1: signed out. And now I know that that's a very 704 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 1: highly debated issue about blacks and the Confederacy, but I 705 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:35,640 Speaker 1: found several accounts of it out of northern newspapers, and uh, 706 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: you know where where the Union soldiers were right back home, 707 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:44,680 Speaker 1: they've they've encountered black Confederates. I don't I don't question 708 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,279 Speaker 1: that it happened. If they exist, didn't I think they did. 709 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 1: They were all brought in as his servants and ended 710 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,360 Speaker 1: up with. As Shelby Foote would say, why are you fighting? 711 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 1: It has nothing political other than the fact it because 712 00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,600 Speaker 1: you've invaded us, and that Farewell could have been the 713 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,799 Speaker 1: motive behind it. Hold service with the Confederacy went from 714 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 1: day one to the very end. He never left him. 715 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 1: He never was a wall. He followed orders. He never 716 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,759 Speaker 1: got any kind of commission, obviously, and he never had 717 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,640 Speaker 1: a uniform, but he had a Confederate hat. And we 718 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 1: had many photographs of him in that Confederate hat. And 719 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:23,280 Speaker 1: if you read the narratives from the Ninth Texas Cavalry, 720 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,880 Speaker 1: they wore they had in a very unusual way, and 721 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,920 Speaker 1: that was with the front turned up. In all of 722 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,960 Speaker 1: these pictures of Hope wearing his Confederate hat has the 723 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,760 Speaker 1: front turned up just exactly the way the Ninth Texas 724 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,960 Speaker 1: Cavalry narratives describe it. And Hope wore that hat to 725 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,960 Speaker 1: his death bed. He he loved that hat, and in 726 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: his many of his photographs in later life he's wearing 727 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 1: that still. That whols involvement in the Civil War is 728 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 1: one of the most mysterious parts of his life, at 729 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 1: least as we would look at it from today's perspective. 730 00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 1: I think it made complete sense to him, and on 731 00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 1: the surface it seems simple. He was endeared to the 732 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,040 Speaker 1: people that owned him, and an army had invaded the 733 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,279 Speaker 1: area he called home, and perhaps it was even the 734 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 1: naivety of his youth thrown in there and him not 735 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:19,240 Speaker 1: understanding the bigger picture. Regardless, Jonathan has some insightful ideas 736 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,120 Speaker 1: on Holt's involvement in the Civil War. You know, I 737 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,919 Speaker 1: think that that Collier's involvement is a civil war is 738 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,840 Speaker 1: the main place that that I take some umbrage with 739 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,840 Speaker 1: the way the story is told about him, because what 740 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,759 Speaker 1: are the what's the actual motivations behind that. So this 741 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 1: idea of like the loyal slave is problematic to me 742 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,760 Speaker 1: because one, it completely ignores the fact that you're dealing 743 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,319 Speaker 1: with people that have no choice. I don't think that 744 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 1: the motivations could possibly be as as simple or as 745 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,440 Speaker 1: buying area. As he loved the people that enslaved him 746 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,279 Speaker 1: and enslaved his mother and either and everyone he ever 747 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,320 Speaker 1: knew and cared about so much that he was willing 748 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:08,279 Speaker 1: to put his life on the line to protect them, 749 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,680 Speaker 1: it is possible for a situation to be more complex 750 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,279 Speaker 1: than the summation of all the information we have. I 751 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 1: think Holt deserves more than turning this story into a 752 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,360 Speaker 1: story about race. All of us simply wants to celebrate 753 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 1: the life of an incredible man, but the story of 754 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 1: race is the backdrop of his whole life, So in 755 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 1: an effort to understand his context, we owe it to 756 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,719 Speaker 1: halt to talk about it. Jonathan and I have a 757 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,480 Speaker 1: lot of rapport with one another and have always been 758 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:45,600 Speaker 1: able to have productive conversations about tough subjects. Here's Jonathan again. 759 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 1: There's no denying the fact that he fought for the Confederacy, 760 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,120 Speaker 1: and not only fought, but did so with the distinction 761 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 1: to the point that he was able to apply for 762 00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 1: and receive a Confederate pension, which is mind boggling. But 763 00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,239 Speaker 1: to me, that speaks more to the extraordinary nature of 764 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 1: the man, much more so than this idea that he 765 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:13,279 Speaker 1: so loved his you know, his brutalizers. Yeah. So it's 766 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,960 Speaker 1: it's certain that Hult Collier was an outlier. I mean, 767 00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,520 Speaker 1: isn't he the one that told us why he did 768 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,920 Speaker 1: what he did? Yeah, So that's a good point, and 769 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:25,760 Speaker 1: I and I would actually argue that that is further 770 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:30,760 Speaker 1: evidence of him being in an extraordinary person and an outlier. 771 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,399 Speaker 1: I think it would be anyone who understands Collier's story 772 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,000 Speaker 1: would be hard pressed to say that he wasn't incredibly capable, 773 00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:43,520 Speaker 1: naturally intelligent, politically adapt and if you think about the 774 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,880 Speaker 1: time that this man lived in, he never was free 775 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,399 Speaker 1: of the yoke of white supremacy at any point. Right, 776 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,360 Speaker 1: the argument could actually be made, and I think pretty 777 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,200 Speaker 1: pretty astutely, that the South was a much more dangerous 778 00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,400 Speaker 1: place for black people after the Civil War than it 779 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,480 Speaker 1: was before because that social order had been so upended 780 00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,760 Speaker 1: that there was a brutality that was that was instituted 781 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:11,080 Speaker 1: to try and hold onto the vestiges of that social order. Right. So, 782 00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:15,000 Speaker 1: what I would say about whole Collier telling these stories 783 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,040 Speaker 1: in the way that he did, explaining his motivations, there's 784 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,400 Speaker 1: kind of two possibility. It's either that everything he's saying 785 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,560 Speaker 1: and putting out there into the cultural zeitguys is true 786 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,520 Speaker 1: that he loved these people that he hated Yankees, or 787 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,359 Speaker 1: he's a person who spent his whole life within these 788 00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,759 Speaker 1: systems and he understood that for him to to have 789 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: some sort of quality of life, it was necessary for 790 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,960 Speaker 1: him to ingratiate himself to the people around him that 791 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:49,120 Speaker 1: had power, and to ingratiate himself to a social narrative 792 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,239 Speaker 1: that provided comfort to those people that were in a 793 00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:58,759 Speaker 1: powerful position. Very interesting thoughts a black man getting a 794 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:04,520 Speaker 1: Confederate pension is incredibly rare and only documented a few times. Basically, 795 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,440 Speaker 1: the United States government gave money to Confederate soldiers injured 796 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,400 Speaker 1: in the Civil War in hopes to help rebuild the South. 797 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,879 Speaker 1: It's unclear if and how Halt was injured, but he 798 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:21,160 Speaker 1: did get a small Confederate pension. Tighten up your belts, brothers, 799 00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,920 Speaker 1: because we're gonna get even deeper. This is bear grease, folks. 800 00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 1: We ain't scared of this kind of talk. I'd argue 801 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:33,319 Speaker 1: that what allowed him to endure was his understanding the 802 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:36,759 Speaker 1: people around him so intimately that he was able to 803 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:42,600 Speaker 1: manipulate them into allowing him to take advantage of opportunities 804 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,080 Speaker 1: that virtually no other black men around him were able 805 00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:50,120 Speaker 1: to access. So does that make him a problematic figure? 806 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,920 Speaker 1: I mean, because it it feels like what you're saying 807 00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:58,680 Speaker 1: means that he was being disingenuous through his whole life. 808 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,040 Speaker 1: So if that were the k is he is he 809 00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,400 Speaker 1: a hero? Or is he a villain? Oh? Man? I 810 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,839 Speaker 1: think that, again, rejecting the buying area, I don't think 811 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,600 Speaker 1: you can say either, right, I think that Do you 812 00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:13,520 Speaker 1: see what I'm saying? No, I totally I totally get 813 00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:15,759 Speaker 1: what you're saying, because if I mean, if you thought 814 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,040 Speaker 1: that train of thought, it feels like you're saying, if 815 00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,120 Speaker 1: he was being true to himself and true to his people, 816 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:26,600 Speaker 1: he should have been outwardly against all these people. No, 817 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:31,880 Speaker 1: that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that so one 818 00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,719 Speaker 1: at one point in my life I would I might 819 00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:36,800 Speaker 1: have been implying to say that he was a traitor 820 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,160 Speaker 1: or sellout or whatever, And now I'm kind of more 821 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,440 Speaker 1: implying to say that he's a complicated human being, which 822 00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,319 Speaker 1: we all are. Right. What I'm saying is that his 823 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:50,319 Speaker 1: circumstances were so different than the ones we live in 824 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:54,799 Speaker 1: today that it's difficult to to bring all of our 825 00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:59,239 Speaker 1: sensibilities and understandings to those interpretations, right, which is I'm 826 00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:02,080 Speaker 1: not playing a moral relativism game here, but I am 827 00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,920 Speaker 1: saying that when you're dealing with a system that is 828 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:12,359 Speaker 1: completely devoid of honor, completely devoid of righteousness, I don't 829 00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,799 Speaker 1: know that I can fully criticize somebody who finds a 830 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,440 Speaker 1: way to survive and in some ways thrive within it. 831 00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:22,440 Speaker 1: And you know, honestly, that's one of the more interesting 832 00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:27,239 Speaker 1: things about Collier's life. To me is how complicated it 833 00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 1: really had to be. That's one thing that's for sure. 834 00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,480 Speaker 1: The South after the Civil War was a complicated place 835 00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:42,680 Speaker 1: and time. I now want to dive into two unbelievable stories. 836 00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,440 Speaker 1: I'll tell you one and I'll let Minor tell you 837 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,400 Speaker 1: the other. Shortly after the war, when Holt was nineteen 838 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:53,480 Speaker 1: years old, He's still living and working for his former owner, 839 00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:57,720 Speaker 1: how Heinz. They're trying to order an uber of the time, 840 00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,359 Speaker 1: which was a pay for horse on coach, and the 841 00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:06,400 Speaker 1: white driver of the uber refuses to let Holt, a black, 842 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:12,560 Speaker 1: emancipated freed slave, ride the coach. Hol Hins objects and 843 00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 1: gets in a physical altercation with the uber driver and 844 00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,600 Speaker 1: old how was a fighter with a short fuse, and 845 00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,919 Speaker 1: the coach driver pulls out a knife and is about 846 00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,879 Speaker 1: to stab how when Holt, who is armed, pulls a 847 00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,799 Speaker 1: pistol and shoots the guy in the hip. Holt would 848 00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,360 Speaker 1: later say that he didn't want to kill the man, 849 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:36,960 Speaker 1: but just keep him from killing how. The gunshot ends 850 00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:41,840 Speaker 1: the fight, and in an almost unbelievable outcome, how and 851 00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:46,000 Speaker 1: several other influential people on the coach tell the authorities 852 00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:50,200 Speaker 1: what happened and no charges were ever pressed on this 853 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,600 Speaker 1: nineteen year old kid that shot a white man in 854 00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:58,320 Speaker 1: Mississippi shortly after the Civil War. That is a wild story. 855 00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:03,279 Speaker 1: Here's my miner talking about the most trouble that whole 856 00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:07,200 Speaker 1: would ever get in. It involved the killing of a 857 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:14,640 Speaker 1: former Union officer. He ends up going back to Greenville, Mississippi, 858 00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:18,800 Speaker 1: where howl Haines ends up going back. And the South, 859 00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:22,160 Speaker 1: not just the Greenville or Fayette or but the entire 860 00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:25,560 Speaker 1: South now is occupied in what is known as the 861 00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:31,640 Speaker 1: Reconstruction era, and economically it's a terribly depressed time. But 862 00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:35,400 Speaker 1: the Union soldiers are still here. They're in occupying for 863 00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:40,640 Speaker 1: the wars over. The slaves are emancipated. Slaves are emancipated. 864 00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:45,720 Speaker 1: They come under the jurisdiction of something called the Freedman's Bureau, 865 00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:49,760 Speaker 1: so organized and it's control and it's run by the 866 00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:54,759 Speaker 1: Union Army. The captain, the commander at Greenville is a 867 00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:58,879 Speaker 1: guy named James A. Keen from Newton, Iowa. And he 868 00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:02,960 Speaker 1: was born and raised an abolitionist, and he fought the 869 00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,840 Speaker 1: entire war for the Union Army. And he's been given 870 00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,920 Speaker 1: this command and his command is basically manage and control 871 00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:16,279 Speaker 1: the entire former slave labor force and negotiate contracts with 872 00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:20,600 Speaker 1: what remaining plantations that owners there are, so that he 873 00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,400 Speaker 1: can collect the money and then spread it out among 874 00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:25,680 Speaker 1: the labor force. At the end of the season and 875 00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:29,279 Speaker 1: the hinds and still have land. They're devastated financially, but 876 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:31,959 Speaker 1: they still got a piece of property had been taken 877 00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:33,839 Speaker 1: away from him. Yet they end up losing it at all. 878 00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:38,919 Speaker 1: But in eighteen sixty six they negotiate with James A. King, 879 00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,640 Speaker 1: so many bills per aker, They'll pay him whatever those 880 00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:44,920 Speaker 1: bills of country bales of cotton. At the end of 881 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:46,640 Speaker 1: the season, they give him the money and he's to 882 00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,640 Speaker 1: disperse it well. James King, as you might imagine, didn't 883 00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,480 Speaker 1: have a very good reputation among the locals. Uh. He 884 00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:55,080 Speaker 1: was accused of stealing money. Was it was, It was 885 00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,960 Speaker 1: pretty common. As I said, Howell Hinz has been wounded 886 00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:00,320 Speaker 1: twice during the war, and so he and I'm not 887 00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:01,759 Speaker 1: gonna say it was an envelope, but he was a 888 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:05,600 Speaker 1: crippled man. And Holt tells later in life about the 889 00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,800 Speaker 1: fact that James King had picked several fights with Howell Haines, 890 00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:12,000 Speaker 1: and Holts says it's a good thing he wasn't there 891 00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:15,319 Speaker 1: because he would have killed him on the spot. So 892 00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:19,560 Speaker 1: there's bad blood between James A. King and Howell Haines, 893 00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:23,719 Speaker 1: and being true to his past, Holt had threatened to 894 00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:28,399 Speaker 1: kill King. And the money comes in. The cotton crop 895 00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,560 Speaker 1: is sold, and in Natchez and New Orleans. I don't know, 896 00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:34,560 Speaker 1: but young Thomas and Howell Haines A Holts going into town, 897 00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,560 Speaker 1: right into Greenville for some reason. It says, stop by 898 00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,480 Speaker 1: James King's wherever you can find him, tell him the 899 00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,359 Speaker 1: money is here, to come on out. And so Hope 900 00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,400 Speaker 1: goes to the boarding house, tells James King the money 901 00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:48,920 Speaker 1: is at at home at plumber Its plantation for him 902 00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:50,920 Speaker 1: to come pick it up. And the hole goes on 903 00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,600 Speaker 1: about his business, and James came in. This money is 904 00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:59,360 Speaker 1: money that has been so there's been work done by 905 00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,799 Speaker 1: this cotton has been sold and now this money James 906 00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:05,880 Speaker 1: King gets us. How is going to give King this 907 00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:10,720 Speaker 1: money to distribute to the former slaves. That's so James 908 00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,960 Speaker 1: King makes two mistakes. He goes out that evening. It's 909 00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:16,920 Speaker 1: obviously he's gonna be coming back in the dark. And 910 00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,680 Speaker 1: he goes along and his body has found three days later, 911 00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:24,640 Speaker 1: his horses. His horses found rider list the next morning 912 00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,400 Speaker 1: in Greenville, and so the search party goes out and 913 00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,239 Speaker 1: they find his body and it's covered by Kine in 914 00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,040 Speaker 1: the same manner that the company I have, the Knight's 915 00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:36,080 Speaker 1: Texas Cavalry used to cover the bodies and people, as 916 00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:39,520 Speaker 1: we discussed earlier. And so they immediately they went out 917 00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,880 Speaker 1: and question the hind Us, and they immediately zero in 918 00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,000 Speaker 1: on Hold and they arrest Hold, charging him with the 919 00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:48,760 Speaker 1: murder of James King. It's one year after the Civil 920 00:55:48,760 --> 00:55:52,479 Speaker 1: War and Holt is charged with murdering a white guy 921 00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:56,440 Speaker 1: who was a Union officer. And don't forget he's already 922 00:55:56,520 --> 00:56:00,080 Speaker 1: shot another white guy. There's no way this is to 923 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:04,279 Speaker 1: end well. Holt never confesses. It's a big mystery. Who 924 00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:07,480 Speaker 1: killed James King. They take Hold down to Vicksburg, Mississippi, 925 00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,200 Speaker 1: and then the old courthouse which is still there, the 926 00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:15,200 Speaker 1: Warren County Courthouse. They have a military court martial of 927 00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:18,719 Speaker 1: a civilian for the murder of this Union officer, and 928 00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:22,360 Speaker 1: it's uh. He's found not guilty. Many of the prominent 929 00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:27,520 Speaker 1: people of Greenville, Mississippi, come down for this hearing and howl. 930 00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:32,640 Speaker 1: Heinz scratches up enough money to hire William Alexander Percy, 931 00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:34,760 Speaker 1: who is known as the Gray Eagle of the Delta. 932 00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:38,440 Speaker 1: His son made great famous Leroy Percy, a United States 933 00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:43,560 Speaker 1: Senator and friend of the the big time lawyer, the best, 934 00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:47,200 Speaker 1: and uh there was no There was nobody to compare 935 00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:51,279 Speaker 1: to William Alexander Percy. But fortunately as as anybody in 936 00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:55,720 Speaker 1: criminal law in those of the convictions, because somebody talks, 937 00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:59,239 Speaker 1: assume their version of the prosecution as correct. Ho would 938 00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:00,799 Speaker 1: have been the only one there. And James King was 939 00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:06,520 Speaker 1: killed he never talked. Holtz acquittal, meaning he was found 940 00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:12,200 Speaker 1: not guilty, is almost unbelievable. William Alexander Percy was the 941 00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:16,280 Speaker 1: best lawyer in Mississippi and wielded incredible power in the Delta. 942 00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:19,600 Speaker 1: It's interesting to consider why he'd take the case of 943 00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:24,160 Speaker 1: a young black man that everybody knew was guilty. Later 944 00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:28,040 Speaker 1: we'll learn that the Percy family fought adamantly against the 945 00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:31,800 Speaker 1: klu Klux Klan and had an uncommon vision for the 946 00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:36,520 Speaker 1: reconstructed South. Wholes acquittal is one of the greatest examples 947 00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:40,640 Speaker 1: of the uncommon nature of his life. He had a 948 00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:46,280 Speaker 1: way of gaining people's loyalty here's Hank Berdine with the 949 00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:52,000 Speaker 1: story behind the story about the trial. They took him 950 00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:54,920 Speaker 1: to Vicksburg, had him arrested for the murder of Captain King. 951 00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:58,680 Speaker 1: Mr Pressure went DNA representing him and all these other folks. When, 952 00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:01,800 Speaker 1: as his character witnesses, the court house is still down there, 953 00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:05,120 Speaker 1: the courtrooms on the second floor. He was acquitted, and 954 00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:07,760 Speaker 1: there was a reporter there from up north, whether it 955 00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,960 Speaker 1: was a carpet bagging reporter or whatever, and said to 956 00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:14,200 Speaker 1: the judge, says, judge, why did you let that man go? 957 00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:17,160 Speaker 1: You know he was guilty. And the judge says, would 958 00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:18,840 Speaker 1: you walk over to that one and look out on 959 00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,760 Speaker 1: that front yard? And the guy did, and he looked 960 00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:23,720 Speaker 1: out in the front yard of the court house at 961 00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:26,400 Speaker 1: Warren County in Vicksburg, Mississippi, on the banks of the 962 00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:31,120 Speaker 1: Mississippi River, and there stood six of the Ninth Texas 963 00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:35,720 Speaker 1: Cavalry cowboys and there were seven horses. He said, they 964 00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,520 Speaker 1: were gonna get him anyway, no mind of what. So 965 00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:41,760 Speaker 1: his buddies in the Ninth Texas Cavalry knew he was 966 00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:45,200 Speaker 1: going to trial, and basically, if he was convicted, they 967 00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:47,000 Speaker 1: were going to take him by forest and bust him 968 00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:50,400 Speaker 1: out of there, and they looked at the world back then. 969 00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:54,680 Speaker 1: Was that unstable? That that was a real thing. I 970 00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:56,680 Speaker 1: mean it was like this was that this was right 971 00:58:56,720 --> 00:59:00,000 Speaker 1: after the Civil War, This this place was just chaos, 972 00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,880 Speaker 1: us down here, and so I mean this, this wasn't 973 00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:06,920 Speaker 1: just an idle threat. And when you had six of 974 00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:11,080 Speaker 1: the ninth Texas after much, they couldn't do what't much 975 00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:18,200 Speaker 1: they wouldn't do. If Holt had a bumper sticker slogan, 976 00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:22,080 Speaker 1: it might have been ready to roll. That's a pretty 977 00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,640 Speaker 1: good descriptor of him. In everything he did, he didn't 978 00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:29,320 Speaker 1: seem to let much hold him back. In this first episode, 979 00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:32,520 Speaker 1: we've covered only the first twenty years of holtz life 980 00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,640 Speaker 1: and he lived to be ninety, so we've got an 981 00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:40,160 Speaker 1: interesting journey ahead of us. Like Jonathan Wilkins said, holtz 982 00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:44,080 Speaker 1: life can't be understood in a binary way, meaning that 983 00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:47,520 Speaker 1: there are only two options. It wasn't just black and white. 984 00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:51,200 Speaker 1: And I don't think we can fully understand him, but 985 00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:54,080 Speaker 1: we're going to do our best to do it. His 986 00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:57,840 Speaker 1: wholehearted engagement in the Civil War is shooting of multiple 987 00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:00,240 Speaker 1: white men shortly after the war, and not get and 988 01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:02,920 Speaker 1: in trouble for it. It's wild. It's clear that he 989 01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:06,840 Speaker 1: had an incredible drawl to his life that overrode the 990 01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:11,040 Speaker 1: predominant relational themes of the time. It's a shame that 991 01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:14,120 Speaker 1: America doesn't know the story of Whole Call. You're on 992 01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:16,520 Speaker 1: a broad scale, and I think we can make this 993 01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:21,720 Speaker 1: statement that it's definitely a complicated story, but that's exactly 994 01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:25,840 Speaker 1: why it needs to be told. I can't wait for 995 01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:33,000 Speaker 1: episode two. I can't thank you, guys and gals enough 996 01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:36,440 Speaker 1: for listening to Bear Grease. We've got some very interesting 997 01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:40,280 Speaker 1: episodes coming up as we continue to explore the incredible 998 01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:43,000 Speaker 1: life from this man. So do me a favor. Tell 999 01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:46,680 Speaker 1: a body about this podcast, leave us a review on iTunes, 1000 01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:50,120 Speaker 1: Go check out the meat eater dot com for some 1001 01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:53,360 Speaker 1: Bear Grease merch, and I can't wait to talk all 1002 01:00:53,440 --> 01:01:04,320 Speaker 1: this over with the Render crew next week. M