WEBVTT - Ep. 082: Whitetail Freaks 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.320 This is me eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.319 bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:28.000 can't predict anything, all right. So I'm wearing my underwearing 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:31.920 all my clothes and um, but I'm in bed. And 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:37.520 remember the old sitcoms and they couldn't show couples in bed. 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:40.839 I do. So they had the show that couple has 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:44.559 always had like little beds, like two little beds with 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:46.400 a night stand between them. And I was like, how 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:50.280 a couple slept in old sitcoms and TV shows? That's 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:51.920 how me and Mark Kenyon A Right now we're in 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:54.280 a hotel room and we're in little beds, laying in 0:00:54.320 --> 0:01:00.840 little beds. Um and and and Doug during In and 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:05.040 the Eagle are in little chairs facing us, but we're 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:12.520 in chairs. Uh, Mark Kenyon, Now you like, like I 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:15.160 think you've even said the sport that that that you're 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:18.440 you use the term like you're a white tail guy. Yeah, 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:22.240 taking you like I understand what it means. I want 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:23.600 you to explain for you know, what it means to 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.520 be a white tail guy, because like I always say 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:29.280 that I'm a big game generalist, which isn't really a 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:33.200 category you know, no one types in big game generalists 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:36.600 into search engines, the truth about big game general truth 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:39.959 about big game generalists. But what is how your small 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:44.560 game exploits fit into being a big game generalist. Well, 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:48.640 I'm a hunting generalist, but in terms of talking about 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:50.680 big game. Yeah, in terms of big game of a 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.400 big game generalist. But I'm a hunting generalist with an 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:57.040 emphasis on big game generalistness. But what does the white 0:01:57.040 --> 0:01:59.960 tail guy mark for me? A white tail guy means 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:02.360 that that's when I grew up on So that was 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:05.800 almost all I hunted, growing up with white tails, and 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:10.440 now it's still comprises probably of my hunting and then 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:13.720 most of my year otherwise. I mean, I'm doing white 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:17.040 tail relaid stuff almost the entire year, from January through December, 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:22.359 whether it's hunting or scouting or preparing spots or all 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:24.200 sorts of different things. So when I say I'm a 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:26.720 white tail guy, I mean that is like my number 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:30.600 one passion. It's also how I make my living. And 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:34.560 then I have you know, as my ability to travel 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:37.400 and do different things has grown, Um, you know, I've 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:39.520 been dabbling in new things which which I've really come 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:41.600 to enjoy. If I've been able to go hunting elk 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:44.880 now for the last four years. You know, learned how 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:47.600 turkey hunt like eight nine years ago, so I love 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:49.600 doing that now. And you know, I pussed around with 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:51.720 a small game when I was a kid too, but 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:54.040 but white tails were what got me with a meat 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:57.760 hook in the heart. I'd say, um, is your foot 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.640 touch on the ground? That's interesting because I think that 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:04.639 when TV evolved to allow couples to be in bed 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:09.200 in one bed, I think one of the wasn't. I 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:12.320 think that one of the people in the couple had 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:14.240 to have a foot on the floor. There were crazy 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:16.520 rules here. I think that once they could have the 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:18.680 same bed that had to be on the floor. So 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:21.440 this those are like SCC rules. Yeah, I think the 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:23.920 marks fixing to come over into my bed, you know, 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:26.960 with that before. It's been a really good trip, Steve. 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:30.320 But I can't tell you what's funny is my uh 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:33.280 one of my wife's biggest pet peeves about visiting my 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:36.440 family is that as soon as I started dating Kylie, 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.240 they changed my parents. In my bedroom where I grew up, 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:41.640 they took out my regular full size bed and replaced 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:45.760 it with two little TV slept over. Yeah, so now 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.480 even we're still married and we sleep in separate beds there, 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:52.840 what really, She's like, why do we still do this? 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:56.240 But your parents did it for that reason because they 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:00.960 explained that it was because the old bed is bad 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:03.520 and they had company coming over, spent a weekend, and 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.480 they happened to know someone who had these almost new beds, 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:08.800 and you know, they don't want their son defiling the 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:12.840 family home that that might be what's actually happening? How much? 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:17.680 How comfortable are you? Like, how comfortable are you saying 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:21.320 when you say you make your living doing it? Like 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:24.560 like spell off of it? What that means? Because like 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.600 a lot like most, not most dudes in the world, 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:29.080 if you said, hey, do you want to make your 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:32.440 living hunting? Not most dudes in the world, most dudes 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:34.640 who might be inclined to be listening to this right 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:38.400 now would would be like, sure, So what does it 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:40.479 look like? What does it mean to be like to 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:43.200 be like a professional white tail guy? So what that 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:46.120 means for me? It's not actually the hunting that makes 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.279 my living necessarily, it's content that I create based on 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:52.160 those experiences. So I run wired hunt dot com, which 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.560 is a deer Hunting website and the Wired Hunt podcast, 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:57.120 which is a deer hunting podcast. So I make probably 0:04:58.000 --> 0:05:01.279 my income from at tizing and things related to that. 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:04.040 And then I write for most of the big deer 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:07.760 hunting magazines and written for Outdoor Life, Feeling, Stream, etcetera. Um, 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:13.000 So do some freelance writing um. And then a little 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:16.640 bit of like merchandise sales and some digital e books 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.239 some kind of things like that, but basically content related 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:23.040 to white tail hunting. Um in my core audience. And 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:25.600 really where I started was like that, you know, the 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:27.599 tagline of what you're hunt was deer hunting for the 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:32.440 next Generation. So it's been really focused on that really 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:35.680 really serious white tail guy that's thinking white tails all 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:40.200 your own, and um, you know, producing content around that 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:44.240 that lifestyle that that's something I think that you said 0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:48.080 something to Doug and then Doug said it to me. Um, 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:50.400 so I want to circle background and ask you about it. 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:55.960 Where there's like a seasonality to hunting, okay, and in 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:58.120 the business of hunting. So when I say the business 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:02.240 hunting means that's like content, right, just like stuff that 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:05.719 people watch for enjoyment, stuff that people watch and read 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:10.320 in order to learn equipment that people purchase, just like 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:16.239 the activity around hunting is like strongly seasonal, where after 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:20.080 Labor Day, um, people start like there's like a creeping 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:24.719 interest in hunting, and then it lingers past hunting season 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:30.800 kind of through the holidays as people are still thinking about, 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:34.560 like it's still freshener head like stuff they wanted to get, 0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:36.839 stuff they wanted to do. They're still excited about it. 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:39.520 They're kind of sharing memories about their fall, and then 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:42.760 it sort of peters off and goes away. And uh, 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:47.000 Douglas recappy conversation you had with you and you were 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:49.039 saying that that it's kind of like in the white 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:51.719 tailed world, it's kind of almost not that way anymore. 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:57.080 I'd agree with that. Yeah, Like what like why because 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:00.400 there's always something to be doing. So I mean, okay, 0:07:00.520 --> 0:07:01.920 let's just start at the beginning of the year. In 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:05.120 January and February, it's postseason scouting, so you can you 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:07.599 can scout and see sign and so many different things 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:10.320 a lot better during that time frame. Tracks in the 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:13.400 snow um as as a stow excuse me, as the 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:15.880 snow starts to melt in early March, depending where you're at, 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:18.680 then you can really see related signs, so rubs and 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:21.360 scrapes and stuff left over from the year before. So 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:23.280 there's a lot of that going on January through March, 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:26.200 and then you know, late February through March then is 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:28.360 shed hunting, and that's huge in the white tail community 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:30.960 these days. So I mean tons of interest related to 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:33.440 shed hunting. And then once you get later into the spring, 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:36.680 then everyone's worked on their habitat projects. So then all April, 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:40.880 May June you're talking food plots or timber stand improvements 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:43.160 or creating bedding cover or whatever it might be. And 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:45.680 then you get into summer and then everybody's talking about 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:48.160 hanging my tree stands, getting out your trail cameras to 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:50.040 see what kind of bucks are in the area, scouting 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:54.280 bean fields, um, getting all your final prep archery practice, 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:56.240 rifle practice, whatever is you're doing all the way, and 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:57.960 then all of a sudden September and you're you're hunting 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:01.000 again in some states October first and others and it's 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:04.680 spread out. But yeah, I mean, my every single day 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:07.280 of my year something white terror lad is going on. 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:12.040 Um except for the last like seven YEA cabout cab 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:14.400 when when when you say you're going out in January 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:18.040 to check tracks, what exactly are you doing? So, I 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.280 mean that kind of situation like you might be walking 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:23.200 the edges of cut Cordfield and see if you can 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:25.000 cut a big track, and if you cut a big track, 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:27.000 you might Okay, there's a mature buck potentially here, and 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:29.360 if the season is done, that's a great opportunity to 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:32.200 follow that track back and determine where that buck's betting. 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:34.520 And you know, no risk there if I bump him, 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:39.280 no big deal, and youved in the strong likelihood he's 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:42.240 gonna be alive next hunting season. And these these mature bucks, 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:44.080 at least in the places where I hunt, you know, 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:46.679 like Michigan or other heavily pressured states. So there's a 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:50.280 lot of hunters. These bucks, they bed places for a reason, 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:53.319 like nothing's happening willy nilly. If a buck, if a 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:55.840 mature buck is bettered in the area, it's because he 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:58.679 knows he's got you know, safety, he's not got a 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:00.319 lot of humans going in there. He's got some way 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:02.920 to get out of there quickly. He can observe or 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:05.800 smell what's happening throughout the day. So when you find 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.280 those kinds of areas. Not only is that mature buck 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:10.360 that's alive right now probably going to continue to use that, 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:12.400 but that's probably gonna be you as in the future 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:14.520 by future buck. So if that buck, if you kill 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:16.559 that deer, someone else is gonna come in there and 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:19.240 pick it up. So if you can identify those buck 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:21.760 betting areas, you're in a good situation moving forward. So 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:24.280 you spend a lot of time backtrack and deer. Sometimes 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:27.000 what when you look for a big track, like what 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:30.080 what is the I mean, everybody likes to you know, 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:32.679 everyone likes to think they know a big track. Okay, 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.040 where you got that the dew clause or splayed out 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.240 like the animal gets to a certain way, like talk 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:41.200 through some of that stuff, some of the fallacies and 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:43.200 truths about like what does a big old buck track 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:45.320 look like. I can't say I'm an expert on this, 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:47.600 but what I always look for as a four finger track. 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:50.600 So something that wide across there, if you've got it, 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:52.360 doesn't look like it's a running track. If it's a 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:56.680 walking track, a walking four finger wide track. Now consider 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:00.760 that my hands are extremely powerful. That a big hand. Yeah, 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:05.280 so it's very subjective, I know, that's a walking track, 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:09.600 four fingers one on a grown male. And that that's 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:11.560 have you heard that, Doug. That's something I've been told 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:14.679 a lot. Ye. And the key is the walking tracks, 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:17.840 because any of your or any bucks track looks big 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:20.679 if it's yes, a running our moving tracks. So yeah, 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:23.080 I agree with that. I mean yeah, I mean imagine 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:24.880 a four finger track from me, and that's one of 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:27.000 my cattle got out. You know, have you ever done 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:31.520 a handoff where you take your pressed gar see who's 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.720 the most powerful. It would be an interesting one. I 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:36.320 do want to point out that I did have you 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:40.800 on on the handoff length at least. Yeah, but when 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:46.959 you factor in height like my proportion. You know, I've 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.280 told this story for my old man met John Wayne, 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:53.920 and John Wayne commented on my old man's hand that stuff, 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:57.360 let's be proud of. Yes, what was the comment. I've 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:01.480 never shook a hand bigger than mine, And my old 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:03.440 man just said, and you never fought in the war 0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:08.400 and I didn't. He sat it out. He sat it out. 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:10.920 His name was not John Wayne, his name is Maryon 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:16.640 and he sat the war out. Wow. Uh, I don't 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:18.240 know if my dad rubbed his nose in it. The 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:22.000 director John Ford rubbed John Wayne's nose in that because 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:26.120 Ford uh was in the service and did propaganda films 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:28.120 and put his life at tremendous risk many times. And 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:30.120 later I went on to make all these great Westerns 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:35.000 with John Wayne and Ford would uh. Ford would embarrass 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:42.000 and ridicule Wayne Um about his uh lack of service. Interesting, 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:44.720 your knowledge about films has surprised man, This dude, I 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.000 like movies a lot. May not realize you had that 0:11:47.080 --> 0:11:51.600 catalog in the mind. There interesting big buck tracks? Do 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:54.720 they get there's a big huge buck track as he 0:11:54.760 --> 0:11:57.160 gets older? Does it? Does it round off on the tip? 0:11:58.080 --> 0:12:00.439 I think it varies? Is very individual. I think you see, 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:03.280 this isn't something I've gotten as far to do. But 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:05.160 I know some guys and I probably should try to 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:08.080 do this more so they will actually go about trying 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.120 to identify individual bucks by their tracks, and so there 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:13.400 will be leading toward. That's what I'm leading towards. So 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:15.640 if you want to jump into that, jump into that. Yeah. 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:17.360 So there's I haven't done this yet, but there are 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.880 some guys I know that can look at certain tracks. 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:23.560 They can or can they say they can. I can't 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.360 verify that. But they tell me they can identify like 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:28.800 a little chink in it, or rounded edge on one side, 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.960 or something like the chink chink h something like that. 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:34.680 And then so here's something some people do to to 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:38.160 make this a little bit easier. Make track catchers. So 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:43.280 let's say you have got a food source and maybe 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.280 there's a handful of trail that leading to that food. 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:47.280 So let's just say it's a cornfield and there's a 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:49.520 handful of trails leading to that cornfield, and you want 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:53.800 to know, how is buck X coming into this area. 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:56.000 What some guys will do is they will go in 0:12:56.040 --> 0:13:00.760 there and they will rake out back up. I'm sorry, yeah, 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:04.520 I mean that you're out with your with your knockers 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:07.400 and you see a big old buck standing in the 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:12.679 field and you're like and you're you're wondering, like what 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:15.079 what route is he using to get here? Like how 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:17.200 can I head him off? Because once he's in it, 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:20.440 I'm not gonna correct. So so in that case, then 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:23.760 you're curious, like, you know, back in the woods, what 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:26.880 is he doing before he arrives here? And so one 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:29.160 whether there's several ways to determine that. One you could 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:31.720 observe if you can find an observation stand or something 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:33.520 where you can watch that and see to the timber. 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:35.959 Number two, you could use trail cameras, so I actually 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:38.200 put a camera on trails and stuff and monitor that way. 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:41.600 Or a third way is making these track catchers, where 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.080 you essentially will clear out an area on that trail 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:47.520 really clean and flat without leaves and making you a 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:50.720 nice even dirt area, and then come back in the 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.960 next day and see which one of those trails has 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:56.280 that big buck track or you know, maybe you saw 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:59.640 the buck come off trail X, and you know to 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:01.520 go check that track catcher because you know he walked 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:03.720 through there, and then you can see that print clearly 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:05.959 pressed in there and say, Okay, he came through here, 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:07.640 this is what his track looks like. Take a picture 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:09.760 of it or something, and in the future you've got 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:11.959 one more tool in your chest that you can use 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:14.600 to try to pattern that deer are you Are you 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:18.440 familiar with umm, not familiar with, but but lion hunters 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:21.520 in the desert. The guys that are hunting lions in 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:26.080 the absence of snow will carry around little whisk brooms, 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:31.280 sometimes full on brooms to dust out just to to 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:33.680 to to wipe it clean on any kind of little 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:37.640 crossing spots or like dry creek beds just to try 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:41.240 to see. We used to do that as all hunting guides, 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.000 like certain bigger trails that we walked a lot, and 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.400 you'd get to certain sections that were just like soft 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:48.480 and sandy, or you knew that it was some sort 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:51.320 of like just a crossing or whatnot. It would often 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:53.840 have elk tracks, and so we would clean them out 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.040 and that way, next time you walk through, you'd be like, oh, 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:59.160 somebody was here in the last twenty four hours. You 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:01.960 know there's elk in the area. When when fur trap 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:06.520 and uh, you know in fur trapping trap muskrat and 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:08.200 mink and raccoon and beaver and stuff. You pay a 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:10.680 lot of attention to undercut banks, like a lot of 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:14.160 animals like to do to move along streams. They'll always 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:18.200 use undercut banks because it gives you overhead protection. You know, 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:21.040 you're not if you're a little mink work and you're 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:23.880 just not exposed to avian predators and whatever else. And 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:25.960 there's a lot of food onto there because all the 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.600 other ship that's trying not to get eaten is also 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:31.480 living under the undercut bank, and I would just go along, 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:33.880 like go along my hip boots, And anytime you had 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:35.640 to undercut bank where's a little bit of sand or 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:38.360 mud on the bottom, you just would not even thinking 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.520 about a kick water up in there to slick it. 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:44.680 So the next time he came by, you'd see, you know, 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:46.400 you'd like slick it out to make to see if 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:48.480 there's a mink work in it or whatever. So yeah, 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:51.240 it's it's like a technique that probably has it's probably 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:54.200 an invented many times, you know. Yeah, well that makes 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.640 this a simple but effective Oh yeah. But like the 0:15:57.680 --> 0:15:59.400 first time someone did it and showed it to me, 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:02.080 I was like, I've been like walking this trail for 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:08.960 three years, you know, and how got anything? Yeah? Yeah, Um, 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:15.760 so that's like the January kind of activity. Now. Shed hunting, Yeah, 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:18.760 are people like our dudes hunting sheds because they're trying 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:20.440 to learn what kind of bucks are about, or they 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:22.040 just hunting sheds they want to find if they'd like 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:24.560 to have them. I guess the ladder. I think it's 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:26.800 a combination of both. At least for me, it's both. 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.160 And most of the guys I hang out with it's both. 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:32.040 I mean, we write antlers are are cool. I love 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:33.720 having a nailer in my hand and getting look at 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:38.320 it and turned around. Given the people. Usually I'm giving 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:42.400 people with them. Yeah, there are a few far between 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:48.000 in Michigan dougs loose with them, schools and whatnot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:53.480 you've you're thinking about the end. It's it's funny that 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.960 you say that, though, because when you Mark was saying, uh, 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:00.480 deer hunting, what was it for the next generation. That 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:02.280 was one of the conversations that we had up there 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.639 on the mountain. It was that I'm twice his age, yeah, 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:13.800 and I am. It's it's a bitter sweet that's a 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.639 bitter sweet thing. Though to realize, my god, you're the 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:20.560 old guy. You know, they've become less and less important 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:24.080 to me. I used to very much just like hoard him, 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:26.240 never wanted to give him away, and then eventually I 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:30.080 was just like, really, why he's important to me? I 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.120 think there's a threshold maybe, like I feel like I'm 0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:33.879 just starting to get to that point where I haven't 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:36.320 like at first it was so like I had to 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:38.760 and then ten and then twelve, and like it's such 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:40.639 a special thing. And then once you get to a 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:43.760 certain number yet it's easier to part with them. Um, 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:45.920 but if it's on your property, it's nice to know. 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:48.960 I mean, I found both sides on a couple of 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:51.480 different occasions, and it's like, I want to kill this, dear, 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:53.600 or if I kill this year, it's gonna be cool 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:55.760 to have a sheds. But this is okay, all right? 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:01.600 Uh So to recap, like, now, now I got myself 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:04.320 all messed up. I get it the ship, but I 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:07.200 wanna get back to the primary question. So with all 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:10.360 the trail cameras and watching and looking and scouting and 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:12.000 all that kind of ship you're telling me now, and 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.800 then you'll find a shed antler. Now I want to 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:20.840 back up for the real neo fights here. Um, dear, 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:25.600 I'm going way backing up. Dear lose their antlers every year. 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:29.159 Some people don't really realize this. A deer drops his 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:33.040 antler and regenerates it every year. So when people talk 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.080 about horns and antlers, and sometimes people will say like, oh, 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:38.919 that dear is horns, and yeah, okay, that's fine, but 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.960 it's not a horn. It's an antler horn. An animal 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:46.960 keeps his whole life mountain goats, big horn sheep, all 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:49.520 that crazy African animals. They got horns, and then you 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:53.000 retain your horns. With one exception, the prong horn, the 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:58.720 American prong horn or antelope um is, it is the 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:02.240 only horned animal that sheds its horn and girls it 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:04.440 new every year. And horns are like basically made out 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:09.800 of hair. Antlers are like bone. Um. So when we 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:11.960 say a shed, we mean like the annual shed and 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:16.160 a buckle with some exceptions, but generally a buck every 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:18.880 year is going to grow bigger and bigger antlers if 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:22.399 he's fortunate enough to live so long and hits what 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:25.560 age mark six seven eight older than that they started 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:28.680 they started to go back downhill. Yeah, but one and 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:32.320 the one of the thousand bucks lives that olde. They 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:36.639 just don't live that long too much, it happens to him. Um. 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:39.760 So you're telling me that you have and all the 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:42.119 thinking and scouting and looking and trail cam in that 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:44.359 you're up to, that you'll now and then find a 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:46.840 shed antler and be like, I didn't know that this 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:50.680 buck existed. Well, it depends if it's property that you 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:54.040 hunt that I've been doing all those things. Yeah, that 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:57.280 still happens sometimes, so he lived his whole damn year, 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:00.880 but shed his antler evaded your attend lots of times 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.480 that these deer have different ranges. So like the bucks 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:05.919 that I'm seeing in the summer and the hunting season, 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:08.840 but those those might be very different than a buck 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:11.640 that shows up in March and sheds zanndler. For example, 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:13.200 there's a deer I've been hunting and watching for a 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:16.639 couple of years now that he shows up on this 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:19.440 property like the first week in September, right when when 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:23.840 the velvet comes off, he relocates that fall range defined property. 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:25.199 What do you mean, like like you give it an 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:28.520 acreage like what you're talking about. So there's a property 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:30.600 in mid Michigan that I hunt that is a nine 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.159 d acre farm that I have permission to hunt on, 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:36.320 so small, relatively small like small farm. Yeah, yeah, I 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:39.879 mean it mean it's all relative, right, Um. I mean, 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:44.800 like like like in Michigan, when I live in Michigan 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:46.480 and we were hunting, we hunted a lot of like 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:51.600 working family farms that were big enough to support you know, 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:54.199 a family. There's a lot of farms in the range 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:56.760 of of three to four acres in the area up 0:20:56.880 --> 0:21:00.560 man by us. At least, everything's getting fractured, smaller and 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:02.919 smaller and smaller properties. I mean, it's all forties and 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:06.240 eighties these days. Almost as when I say, um, so 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:10.680 I feel somewhat um fortunate to have ninety acres to 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:12.520 hunt on there. Um it gives me enough to work 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:14.600 with half of its open field, so you can't do 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:16.119 much with that, but then the other half has some 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.600 cover and stuff. Dude, I'm not dogging on having ninety acres. 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:21.440 That's fantastic. Yeah, I'm just trying to clarify for people 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:24.560 who don't really deal in acreages in their head. We're 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:26.080 talking about when you point that out a couple of 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:28.480 days ago. That's so funny to hear me talk about 0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:31.920 properties when hunting out west. That's something you guys don't 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:33.880 think about it at all. But yeah, I think that's 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:36.080 everyone that I hunt with and around. That's how you work. 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:38.320 I've got permission on two properties, or I've got this 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:40.840 property that property that you can hunt and you have 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:44.919 to um cherish those because they're fleeting getting permission. They 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:46.840 can you can lose it quick. You can get kicked 0:21:46.880 --> 0:21:50.199 off a property, like we joked about. Um and they 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:52.359 sell it off from under her or some little some 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:57.240 little cousin. Yeah, and then that happens. Cousins are the 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:01.040 bane of hunters man, because every d of the owns property. 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:04.960 It's inevitable. They got some damn cousin who eventually is 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:08.399 gonna come around. I want to tap into his birthright 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:11.560 and boot you off the property. But you got a 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:15.159 ninety acre property, and then you have freedom to roll 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:17.680 them there. But in all the surrounding properties you might 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:21.320 not be able to. Whatever happens there is someone else's business. Yeah. Yeah, 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:23.600 And I try to get permission as many places as 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:26.399 I can, you know, to increase your flexibility and your 0:22:26.440 --> 0:22:28.480 options and stuff. So in some places I have permission 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:31.200 on multiple property, someplaces just a tiny little piece here there. 0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:33.040 But in this case you have, you have permission on 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:36.520 a ninety surrounded by other landowners. Um, and there was 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:39.360 a buck of interest. Buck of interest. And yeah, he 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:42.440 he shows up in September, He hangs out till January 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:44.760 and then he disappears. But I don't understand what you mean, 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:47.880 like shows up from where? Like how far away? Could 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:50.600 it possibly be? Not a mile or two? I've I've 0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:52.560 heard and seen examples of a mile or two. Yeah, 0:22:52.560 --> 0:22:53.920 it could be. It could be just on the other 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:56.800 side of your six or forty acre block. Um So, 0:22:56.880 --> 0:22:59.840 I know like in some cases, like in this case, 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:02.760 I a neighbor, a sort of distant neighbor that I 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:05.399 keep in communication with, has gotten summer trail cameras with 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:08.320 this buck, but I've never seen him before, gotten pictures 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:10.440 in the summer, but then he sees him almost never 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:12.880 during the fall. I see him all the time during 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:14.720 the fall. Do you think he's moving there because of 0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:18.879 because of something going on with agricultural timing or do 0:23:18.920 --> 0:23:20.320 you think it has something to do with him prep 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:22.560 and coming in because he's fixing to mate some doughs. 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:25.399 I can't necessarily put my finger on because you know, 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:27.480 the crops are rotating every year. So it's not like 0:23:27.520 --> 0:23:29.560 he's only going over there on years when it's a 0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:31.920 soybean here, and then he comes over on mine when 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:34.560 it's a soybean. Hear in my on on the property 0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:36.640 I can hunt there, so it's not necessarily related to that. 0:23:37.320 --> 0:23:41.120 Um you know, a lot of a lot of times 0:23:41.160 --> 0:23:44.920 bucks will prefer to summer in areas with more mature 0:23:45.200 --> 0:23:47.600 cover and stuff because when they've got those big velvet antlers, 0:23:47.880 --> 0:23:50.000 they're not necessarily wanting to get in the thick, nasty 0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:51.920 stuff that they nest that they would and then later 0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:53.320 in the fall. So a lot of times you're gonna 0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:56.840 see mature bucks in the summer and like habitatic where 0:23:56.840 --> 0:23:59.240 I'm at, they might bed and hang out in areas 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:01.000 of big mature tim stands that are close to like 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:03.719 a soybean field or something good summer nutrition. And then 0:24:03.760 --> 0:24:07.640 once you get into September two stosteronees rising valvet comes off. 0:24:07.720 --> 0:24:10.199 They start relocating to these fall ranges where number one, 0:24:10.200 --> 0:24:12.879 there's better fall cover because once those leaves come down, 0:24:12.920 --> 0:24:15.280 they require a different cover. And then number two, they 0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:16.879 want to go where there's going to be more does 0:24:17.320 --> 0:24:19.600 because of course that time periods coming up the rut, 0:24:19.920 --> 0:24:22.360 but they want to establish their own space from other 0:24:22.400 --> 0:24:26.159 bucks and they need space. How old this dear that 0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:28.000 you're looking at? This buck should be five and a 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:32.320 half this year, which in Michigan doesn't happen. Yeah, no doubt. 0:24:32.720 --> 0:24:35.159 I have found that the older of the deer gets, 0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:37.600 the older of the buck gets, the less he moves 0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:39.960 tighter core range. Yeah, I've seen it, heard the same, 0:24:40.800 --> 0:24:42.639 what do you feel as a deer's core range? Like 0:24:42.680 --> 0:24:45.760 how much? Um? I should say what you feel because 0:24:45.760 --> 0:24:48.960 it's known now because the tracking data, it's like it's 0:24:49.000 --> 0:24:52.000 not like intuition anymore, like like how much space does 0:24:52.000 --> 0:24:55.080 a white tailed deer you use? So I am going 0:24:55.119 --> 0:24:59.159 to get this specific numbers wrong here, But there's a 0:24:59.200 --> 0:25:01.440 home range and a core range or kind of terminology 0:25:01.480 --> 0:25:03.600 that's thrown around. The home range is something like where 0:25:03.640 --> 0:25:06.960 that buck spends about sevent that let me take it back, Yeah, 0:25:07.080 --> 0:25:10.280 about seventy of his movements are going to be within 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:14.560 that home range, and that can be like three hundred 0:25:14.800 --> 0:25:17.160 six thousand acre or something like that, like a relatively 0:25:17.240 --> 0:25:20.280 large area where he might at some point in time 0:25:20.320 --> 0:25:23.080 turn up. Yeah. But then there's that core range whereas 0:25:23.359 --> 0:25:26.320 he's spending the very mostly that's the most concentrate amount 0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:29.960 of his movement, and that can be forty acres so 0:25:30.080 --> 0:25:32.240 much tighter area where he's betted most of the time, 0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:34.879 where he's gonna be feeding most of the time. But 0:25:34.920 --> 0:25:37.160 then there are those these four ways, Like it's it's 0:25:37.200 --> 0:25:40.920 well proven, especially during the rut, that bucks and even 0:25:40.920 --> 0:25:45.040 does will take these extended fourays randomly mile two out 0:25:45.040 --> 0:25:49.320 of their core range, seemingly at random, possibly following a 0:25:49.359 --> 0:25:52.480 dough or different things like that, and then they'll return 0:25:52.520 --> 0:25:54.639 back to that core, you know, a week later or something. 0:25:57.040 --> 0:26:00.920 It's always kind of add something it's interesting to add. Uh, 0:26:01.119 --> 0:26:03.840 just sort of compare it to what the Arizona guys 0:26:03.880 --> 0:26:07.280 see with their white tails, because it's so much more open, right, 0:26:07.320 --> 0:26:09.399 and they get to sort of experience what you're talking 0:26:09.440 --> 0:26:12.720 about through their binoculars at two miles away. You know. 0:26:12.760 --> 0:26:15.040 We talked to some guys that killed box that they've 0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:20.280 seen like sleeping underneath the same cactus or same oak tree, 0:26:21.000 --> 0:26:24.639 you know, dozens of days, you know, like and just 0:26:24.680 --> 0:26:27.720 they don't move. Sometimes these boxes live in one little 0:26:27.760 --> 0:26:30.639 bitty canyon, you know, and sleep under the same tree. 0:26:31.040 --> 0:26:33.120 There's a story we heard about a desert white tail. 0:26:33.280 --> 0:26:37.440 You might remember the details, Johnnie. Someone someone in our 0:26:37.480 --> 0:26:43.680 circle um of associates had found a desert white tailor 0:26:43.760 --> 0:26:48.160 a CU's deer under a tree and it was a big, 0:26:48.240 --> 0:26:52.480 nice bucket. It wasn't seasoned, and it had distinctive antlers. 0:26:53.480 --> 0:26:55.919 And then they looked for it and looked for it 0:26:55.960 --> 0:26:59.760 and looked for it. Over the next several years, is 0:26:59.800 --> 0:27:03.960 this right. They could never find it, and then one 0:27:04.040 --> 0:27:10.000 day they found it again laying under the tree. Just 0:27:10.480 --> 0:27:12.920 was there probably like maybe it was just in that 0:27:13.000 --> 0:27:17.359 little pocket the whole time. But yeah, but what they 0:27:17.400 --> 0:27:20.000 talked about, these guys are hunt CUSI a lot because 0:27:20.000 --> 0:27:21.960 you because you're looking at it. It's like like in 0:27:22.000 --> 0:27:24.480 the Midwest, all white of activities like hidden from view, 0:27:25.240 --> 0:27:26.760 you know, and you have to do all the stuff. 0:27:26.800 --> 0:27:28.760 But like out there where it's open, Yeah, you can 0:27:28.800 --> 0:27:30.800 get back and just observe the whole thing. They talk 0:27:30.880 --> 0:27:37.119 about his glass up a big buck, finding his like 0:27:37.200 --> 0:27:40.720 identifying his little zone, and then just finding a little 0:27:40.720 --> 0:27:44.919 sniper's perch somewhere like in the vicinity of his zone. 0:27:45.000 --> 0:27:46.560 And then you just lay there for a couple of 0:27:46.600 --> 0:27:49.679 days waiting for him to do his and you just 0:27:49.760 --> 0:27:52.320 like peeking in on it, you know, which isn't the 0:27:52.400 --> 0:27:57.040 luxury you have now in flat flat timbered brushy country. 0:27:57.400 --> 0:27:59.640 I will point out though, to your point, you're honest 0:27:59.640 --> 0:28:01.520 store of at those core and home ranges in the 0:28:01.560 --> 0:28:03.679 amount of movement, even a white tail in Midwest or 0:28:03.840 --> 0:28:07.080 Northeast that is very habitat dependent too. So I mean, 0:28:07.080 --> 0:28:09.080 if you're in an area where they have to travel 0:28:09.160 --> 0:28:12.320 much farther distances to get between decent food and good 0:28:12.400 --> 0:28:14.800 security cover, it can be much larger. But I think 0:28:14.800 --> 0:28:18.600 in an area where it's evenly dispersed cover, food, water, etcetera. 0:28:18.840 --> 0:28:20.800 I think those numbers tend to be in that range. 0:28:21.280 --> 0:28:23.320 So the buck you're talking about, the buck that got 0:28:23.359 --> 0:28:24.840 to be five and a half years old, how did 0:28:24.880 --> 0:28:26.679 he get to be five and a half years old? Like? 0:28:26.720 --> 0:28:30.760 How is he avoided getting shot four times? So when 0:28:30.840 --> 0:28:34.280 just every bucket shot or not everybody, every buck of 0:28:34.320 --> 0:28:37.399 bench she gets hit by a car, killed by coyotes, 0:28:38.440 --> 0:28:41.160 shot by a gun, or just whatever other accidents befall 0:28:41.360 --> 0:28:44.160 tangled up in a woven wire fence like I've seen 0:28:44.160 --> 0:28:45.880 it quite a number of times over the years. Like 0:28:45.920 --> 0:28:49.080 just stuff happens to him. Yeah, so I think a 0:28:49.080 --> 0:28:52.400 lot of luck, right, I mean, because all those things 0:28:52.400 --> 0:28:54.880 you listed up fences, cars, coyotes, none of that stuff 0:28:54.920 --> 0:28:58.400 has happened yet. But outside of luck, I think two things. 0:28:58.440 --> 0:29:02.320 Number One, he has a very tight core range like 0:29:02.440 --> 0:29:04.520 he I've never had a buck that I've hunted and 0:29:04.560 --> 0:29:07.600 observed that is so habitual in a small area that 0:29:07.640 --> 0:29:10.680 he uses like I during the hunting season. Because of 0:29:10.680 --> 0:29:12.440 how this property lays out. There's a big hill up 0:29:12.480 --> 0:29:14.520 towards the front of it that I can sit on 0:29:14.640 --> 0:29:16.680 and I can look down over. I can actually see 0:29:16.680 --> 0:29:18.920 a decent ways into this area some fields, and you 0:29:18.960 --> 0:29:22.640 can actually see into this brush you like multiflora rose 0:29:22.720 --> 0:29:26.440 type stuff that great cover and tall grass. But from 0:29:26.560 --> 0:29:28.360 high I can see down into it. And so you 0:29:28.360 --> 0:29:31.040 guys ever chase cotton tails down that multiflora rolls because 0:29:31.080 --> 0:29:33.480 that's on a neighboring property, but I can see it 0:29:34.400 --> 0:29:37.760 um and that buck during the hunting season is there 0:29:38.120 --> 0:29:41.760 almost every day. I mean, he stakes stays in a 0:29:41.880 --> 0:29:44.400 very small are so I know he's possibly gonna come 0:29:44.440 --> 0:29:46.960 feed on the property I can hunt. He's gonna bed 0:29:47.280 --> 0:29:49.840 just over the edge into the thick stuff. And then 0:29:49.840 --> 0:29:51.400 if I hunt, you know, one of these one or 0:29:51.440 --> 0:29:53.080 two stands where I can see that area, I can 0:29:53.080 --> 0:29:55.560 almost almost guarantee you I'm going to see him. Our 0:29:55.640 --> 0:29:59.640 dudes hunting that property too, not often. So that's the 0:29:59.680 --> 0:30:03.040 thing we've got going is that there's a hunter there 0:30:03.080 --> 0:30:05.800 that doesn't go in very often, so he has kind 0:30:05.800 --> 0:30:07.880 of sanctuary there on that property most of the year. 0:30:08.240 --> 0:30:10.240 And then on the property I can hunt. I'm very 0:30:10.320 --> 0:30:11.800 very careful about how I hunt it and one I 0:30:11.880 --> 0:30:13.720 hunt it. So he's got kind of a two property 0:30:13.760 --> 0:30:17.400 section there that's almost hunter hunting pressure free that he 0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:19.800 can roam around. And so he's got that going for him. 0:30:19.960 --> 0:30:22.880 Are you friendly with the other guy? Yes? He is 0:30:22.880 --> 0:30:26.960 he a wearing this buck also? Um? Yes, Now he 0:30:26.960 --> 0:30:29.360 doesn't know. We haven't talked about to the degree I'm 0:30:29.360 --> 0:30:32.720 obsessed with this buck. Yeah, he might be aware, like, 0:30:32.720 --> 0:30:34.360 oh I heard there was a big buck back there. 0:30:34.480 --> 0:30:35.800 That's what a lot of people think of it, but 0:30:35.840 --> 0:30:37.760 they don't think of it like what is it actually 0:30:37.960 --> 0:30:40.920 up to? Yeah? Yeah, so so but yeah, we we've 0:30:41.000 --> 0:30:43.080 like had drinks together and I mentioned, oh, there's this 0:30:43.200 --> 0:30:44.760 nice buck that I see every once in a while. 0:30:44.840 --> 0:30:46.640 And so he's on board with the idea of let's 0:30:46.680 --> 0:30:50.560 let's just let's let dear get bigger and stuff. Yes, yes, yes, 0:30:50.760 --> 0:30:53.400 I think he's not quite um as serious about as 0:30:53.440 --> 0:30:54.960 I am. But we've talked about in the past and 0:30:55.000 --> 0:30:57.120 it sounds like he's not interested in shooting a year 0:30:57.160 --> 0:30:58.760 and a half old bucks and stuff. So there's a 0:30:58.760 --> 0:31:00.440 couple of different people I've I've I had to meet 0:31:00.480 --> 0:31:02.640 everyone I can in the area, and most of them 0:31:02.680 --> 0:31:04.480 want to see you know, bucks get a little bit 0:31:04.480 --> 0:31:06.040 of age on him, so that's a good thing. In 0:31:06.040 --> 0:31:09.040 the general area, there's a handful propers where they don't 0:31:09.040 --> 0:31:11.840 do that, a couple of propers where they do. Um. 0:31:11.880 --> 0:31:13.520 But then the second or the third thing, I guess 0:31:13.560 --> 0:31:15.920 that has allowed this buck to get to that point. 0:31:16.240 --> 0:31:18.240 And maybe I'm gonna take too much credit for myself, 0:31:18.280 --> 0:31:21.000 but I've chosen not to kill him. Um. So the 0:31:21.120 --> 0:31:24.040 very first year I saw him, I saw him the 0:31:24.160 --> 0:31:26.640 night before, the night before opening day of bow season 0:31:26.640 --> 0:31:28.840 in Michigan, and he was a nice three and a 0:31:28.840 --> 0:31:31.280 half year old buck. Was the best looking buck I 0:31:31.280 --> 0:31:32.960 had seen on the property that year, and at that 0:31:32.960 --> 0:31:34.560 point I was I was interested in shooting at three 0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:36.960 and a half yield there in Michigan because that's still 0:31:36.960 --> 0:31:38.880 hard to find two. So he was a buck that 0:31:38.880 --> 0:31:41.120 I would shoot. But opening night came in, a different 0:31:41.160 --> 0:31:43.920 buck came and I killed that deer, and so I decaid, 0:31:43.960 --> 0:31:46.080 I'm not gonna kill this other deer now because I've 0:31:46.080 --> 0:31:48.040 already taken one off this property. So I was just 0:31:48.080 --> 0:31:49.840 gonna shoot those the rest of the season. So he 0:31:49.920 --> 0:31:51.680 got he got a free pass the rest of that year. 0:31:51.720 --> 0:31:53.840 I had him within bow range later in the season 0:31:53.880 --> 0:31:57.680 and chose not to shoot him. Last year. Um, he'd 0:31:57.680 --> 0:31:59.400 be a four year old, and again I was seeing 0:31:59.480 --> 0:32:01.240 him a lot, learned a lot about him from the 0:32:01.280 --> 0:32:03.880 past year. So I definitely wanted to shoot him last year. 0:32:04.760 --> 0:32:07.080 Had I saw him with my own eyes twenty seven 0:32:07.080 --> 0:32:10.160 times during the season. Last year, UM had him Yeah 0:32:10.400 --> 0:32:13.880 crazy right, UM had a shot at him at forty 0:32:13.920 --> 0:32:16.120 yards one evening, but it was like right at last night, 0:32:16.160 --> 0:32:18.719 and I just didn't feel comfortable taking a shot in 0:32:18.760 --> 0:32:21.360 those conditions. Oh, but you would have shot him last year. 0:32:21.640 --> 0:32:24.960 I would have shot him last year. How many have 0:32:25.400 --> 0:32:27.440 so last year he probably would have been like a 0:32:27.560 --> 0:32:31.200 hundred mid one one thirty eight pointer. Four year old 0:32:31.280 --> 0:32:33.600 is a four year old, UM, which is a really 0:32:33.600 --> 0:32:38.880 good Michigan buck um. But so he had all these 0:32:38.960 --> 0:32:42.000 encounters earlier in the season. Gun season comes and I 0:32:42.080 --> 0:32:44.040 was like, you know, I think I couldn't pull it off. 0:32:44.040 --> 0:32:46.840 He's probably gonna killed during gun season. You know, I 0:32:46.960 --> 0:32:50.280 made you made peace of that reality, Like I had 0:32:50.280 --> 0:32:53.520 an awesome experience with this year. He's probably gone. But 0:32:54.040 --> 0:32:57.480 lo and behold, December shows up, he's still alive, and 0:32:57.600 --> 0:33:00.080 something like clicked in my mind, and like early of 0:33:00.120 --> 0:33:02.680 December when I realized he made it through all October, 0:33:02.800 --> 0:33:04.600 he made it through all of November in the rut 0:33:04.600 --> 0:33:07.880 and gun season, and I kind of realized, Wow, this 0:33:07.920 --> 0:33:11.320 deer could actually make it another year. Um, and I 0:33:11.320 --> 0:33:14.080 had already I'd already killed two bucks. I'd already killed 0:33:14.080 --> 0:33:17.400 two bucks last year and several does. And I realized 0:33:17.440 --> 0:33:19.400 I don't need to fill another tag. I don't need 0:33:19.440 --> 0:33:22.120 to kill this buck. He probably could make it the 0:33:22.160 --> 0:33:24.360 next year. And I've just come like it's been a 0:33:24.400 --> 0:33:25.640 very unique thing to be able to watch it here. 0:33:25.640 --> 0:33:29.120 Over two years, I've become, you know, so invested in 0:33:29.160 --> 0:33:32.160 like this experience, in this interaction with this deer, that 0:33:32.280 --> 0:33:33.480 I kind of got to the point where I was like, 0:33:33.480 --> 0:33:34.960 you know what I'd like to I'd like to see 0:33:34.960 --> 0:33:37.240 if he'll be around next year. Yeah. But as a 0:33:37.320 --> 0:33:40.200 writer at this point, as a writer, you almost can't 0:33:40.240 --> 0:33:43.160 kill it, some bitch, at this point, you gotta be 0:33:43.240 --> 0:33:47.680 like the story would be. And there he was, And 0:33:47.720 --> 0:33:49.320 I had this chance. You ever see the movie The 0:33:49.360 --> 0:33:53.320 Golden Seal. No, there he was. I had a chance. 0:33:54.000 --> 0:33:58.360 And then just like you ever see Uh Deer Hunter, what, 0:33:58.600 --> 0:34:03.800 Oh my goodness, I know I should. I saw The 0:34:03.960 --> 0:34:06.960 hun five times by the time I was thirty. Vietnam movie. 0:34:07.040 --> 0:34:08.799 You don't know like I've heard of it. I just 0:34:08.840 --> 0:34:12.000 hadn't seen it. It's boys in Pennsylvania grew up in 0:34:12.040 --> 0:34:15.000 the in the mining world. Every year they hunt, they know, 0:34:15.040 --> 0:34:18.760 they go up and hunt the mountains every year, and 0:34:18.920 --> 0:34:22.360 they go off to Vietnam. Um one of them in 0:34:22.400 --> 0:34:25.880 the Green Berets. They wind up in a prison camp. 0:34:26.480 --> 0:34:28.320 Two of them wind up in the prison camp together. 0:34:29.239 --> 0:34:32.640 The VC used them to make bats on Russian Roulette. 0:34:34.800 --> 0:34:39.320 They get deeply damaged. Come home. Robert de Niro uh 0:34:39.440 --> 0:34:45.759 goes up back hunting with his friends. Uh. For some 0:34:45.840 --> 0:34:49.600 weird reason of red stag comes out. Uh. The movies 0:34:49.640 --> 0:34:52.280 they always you know, you always fine in American movies 0:34:52.719 --> 0:34:54.719 there has got red stags in them, like they did. 0:34:54.719 --> 0:34:56.520 They make that mistake and last in the Mohican know 0:34:56.560 --> 0:34:58.759 who made the movie definitely is not a wild lef. 0:34:59.360 --> 0:35:03.920 So stay comes out. But the nero uh doesn't shoot 0:35:03.920 --> 0:35:08.560 it steady starts, you know, He's like it's over, it's over, 0:35:08.920 --> 0:35:12.720 and doesn't shoot the Golden Seal it's a very valuable seal. 0:35:13.600 --> 0:35:16.840 And you say seal. Are we talking what kind of seal? Seal? 0:35:16.880 --> 0:35:19.440 I don't know a ring seal. I can't rather it 0:35:19.520 --> 0:35:20.839 was when I was a kid, So it's an animal 0:35:21.320 --> 0:35:23.600 gets crack at it. Yeah, dude finally gets crack at it. 0:35:23.680 --> 0:35:26.399 The size not to take the shot. He's like, Noah, 0:35:26.760 --> 0:35:29.760 I can't do it. So I think, now this buck, 0:35:29.880 --> 0:35:33.120 when you get the chance, you gotta be like, let 0:35:33.200 --> 0:35:35.560 him walk off into the sunset, man, because don't you 0:35:35.560 --> 0:35:37.799 think you know him too well now to shoot him? Well, 0:35:37.880 --> 0:35:40.520 I mean it's definitely getting that. I've got nothing your dog. 0:35:40.880 --> 0:35:44.959 I wouldn't shoot a dog. I would shoot is this deer? 0:35:45.000 --> 0:35:48.880 After all of these years of interactions, how are you 0:35:48.880 --> 0:35:50.920 gonna then go jab an arrow into him? I know 0:35:50.960 --> 0:35:54.840 it's a really weird paradox um, dude, because because you're 0:35:54.560 --> 0:35:56.840 a percent right after the movie and in the end, 0:35:56.880 --> 0:36:02.040 he's like, ma'am, look at his face, he's gonna pull 0:36:02.080 --> 0:36:07.359 back and shoot that year having your socks, Doug, I'm 0:36:07.360 --> 0:36:10.799 wearing my comfy shoes without socks, dude, post hunt, let 0:36:10.840 --> 0:36:14.040 him let him out there and m toes out. So 0:36:14.360 --> 0:36:17.719 now I'm interested in this buck. Uh he's going to 0:36:17.800 --> 0:36:22.759 get where exactly is all My friends threatened to do 0:36:22.840 --> 0:36:26.200 that too. Not Uh so he continues to be in 0:36:26.239 --> 0:36:28.680 eight or is. He's starting to get some junkers so 0:36:29.040 --> 0:36:32.399 up to this point, really so I have that's fine, 0:36:32.440 --> 0:36:34.879 that's fine. I'm trying to get some heavy ship here 0:36:34.960 --> 0:36:41.560 right him finally take he got his stickers. Well, so, 0:36:42.440 --> 0:36:44.560 so he is a he is a tight and tall 0:36:44.719 --> 0:36:47.080 eight pointer. He has been that the last two years. 0:36:47.440 --> 0:36:50.160 He's just gotten heavier every year. But I don't know 0:36:50.160 --> 0:36:52.560 what he looks like this year because I haven't seen 0:36:52.640 --> 0:36:54.440 haven't seen him because he's on the because he's on 0:36:54.480 --> 0:36:58.000 the instry place. So I saw he's gonna show up, 0:36:58.000 --> 0:37:00.359 You don't, I don't so right right about a car 0:37:00.480 --> 0:37:02.719 right about now is when he uses shows out. So 0:37:02.760 --> 0:37:04.560 there's still a lot of this is not a done 0:37:04.560 --> 0:37:08.160 deal yet. Oh no, it's not done deal. But in 0:37:08.160 --> 0:37:10.560 December he made it through the hunting season. He made 0:37:10.560 --> 0:37:12.080 it all the way through March. I saw him in 0:37:12.120 --> 0:37:16.279 March still carrying think so you you don't know, I 0:37:16.320 --> 0:37:18.520 don't know. There was there's he's not walking under your 0:37:18.520 --> 0:37:20.840 tree stand every night, right, not yet? But while starting 0:37:20.880 --> 0:37:24.920 right about now. He usually starts to never found a chet? 0:37:25.040 --> 0:37:27.360 What have you name? What's his name? Don't tell me 0:37:27.360 --> 0:37:29.160 he doesn't have a name. He has a name. He 0:37:29.200 --> 0:37:32.040 has a name. That's what his white tailed guys do know. 0:37:32.200 --> 0:37:34.080 You saw me name it? Care? Yeah, you named one 0:37:34.080 --> 0:37:38.640 snow angels, so I won't be ashamed at all of Well, 0:37:38.680 --> 0:37:44.560 I named him snow king, snow angela snowflake. He picked 0:37:44.600 --> 0:37:46.719 up a lot of names, all sort of based off 0:37:46.719 --> 0:37:49.680 of snow thing. Did uh? What does his name? You 0:37:49.680 --> 0:37:51.080 don't want to tell me, I will tell you. And 0:37:51.120 --> 0:37:53.640 I know it does sound ridiculous to some people from outside, 0:37:54.880 --> 0:37:58.360 but no, it's an efficiency thing is It's an efficient 0:37:58.640 --> 0:38:01.000 That's all it is. Yeah, because of game stuff, L 0:38:01.040 --> 0:38:06.279 says lhol Fabio. We do it with a hint of 0:38:06.480 --> 0:38:11.960 um um sarcasm sarcasm. But I think everyone at this 0:38:12.000 --> 0:38:14.799 point does with a hint of sarcasm. Almost everyone does 0:38:14.840 --> 0:38:18.279 with hin sarcas because there's some outlandish names out there. Yeah, 0:38:18.320 --> 0:38:20.120 but I mean, what am I gonna do for three years? Oh? 0:38:20.160 --> 0:38:22.200 You know that one eight pointer that I've seen twenties 0:38:22.200 --> 0:38:24.680 seven times? Well, I did try to I did try 0:38:24.719 --> 0:38:27.000 to dub a carib but we're looking at that one 0:38:27.080 --> 0:38:29.600 Caribo way over there. Yes he did, but it just 0:38:29.719 --> 0:38:34.520 was cumbersome, and so we settled on snow Angel. So 0:38:34.680 --> 0:38:38.440 this buck I refer to as holy Field because he's 0:38:38.440 --> 0:38:42.360 got a chunk missing out of his ear, so it 0:38:42.480 --> 0:38:46.640 was a natural fit. And uh and yeah, hopefully he'll 0:38:46.640 --> 0:38:48.080 be there when I get back to Dude, I'm gonna 0:38:48.120 --> 0:38:52.439 think so much less of you if you jab an 0:38:52.640 --> 0:38:56.160 arrow into this deer after all of this time together. 0:38:57.000 --> 0:39:00.239 But on balance, I'd be really disappointed if you get 0:39:00.680 --> 0:39:03.000 if you get the opportunity. But you know what, here's 0:39:03.120 --> 0:39:06.799 here's no way looking at it. He's walking dead. What 0:39:06.840 --> 0:39:09.719 do you mean he's gonna get killed? Like, yeah, he's 0:39:09.760 --> 0:39:11.880 just like he's at the end of his time on Earth. 0:39:12.120 --> 0:39:16.120 It's it's five and a half by someone or something. Yes, 0:39:16.880 --> 0:39:19.720 it was interesting though last year, so I have a podcast, 0:39:19.760 --> 0:39:21.879 so I talked about all these things with my own 0:39:21.920 --> 0:39:24.799 audience a lot, and so the story of holy Field 0:39:24.840 --> 0:39:26.960 has become like this long running thing that all these 0:39:27.000 --> 0:39:29.760 people are following. And so last year when I decided, 0:39:29.800 --> 0:39:31.480 you know, I don't think I don't want to shoot him. 0:39:31.520 --> 0:39:34.239 This year, um, and I explained, I had a really 0:39:34.320 --> 0:39:37.280 lengthy conversation all you know, going through my thought process 0:39:37.400 --> 0:39:39.560 and and why I decided I didn't want to do that. 0:39:40.320 --> 0:39:44.560 There was a in an incredibly passionate response from a 0:39:44.560 --> 0:39:46.279 lot of people. A lot of people are like, I 0:39:46.320 --> 0:39:47.560 totally get it, And then a lot of people, I 0:39:47.560 --> 0:39:49.680 can't believe you're not gonna shoot it. You're letting us down, 0:39:49.800 --> 0:39:52.880 Like kill that damn buck what we want to like 0:39:53.040 --> 0:39:55.160 someone else is gonna kill They wanted a resolution, Yeah, 0:39:55.160 --> 0:39:57.640 they want a resolution to the story. But you said 0:39:57.680 --> 0:39:59.440 it was pretty equal, though you had other people that 0:39:59.520 --> 0:40:02.680 were like, oh, I'd say it was. It was like, 0:40:02.719 --> 0:40:04.360 totally get what you're saying. But then there was a 0:40:04.440 --> 0:40:07.000 very loud and passionate ten percent that wants that dear 0:40:07.080 --> 0:40:13.239 dead UM just to see just yeah, like you said, resolution, 0:40:13.360 --> 0:40:15.400 like they have their story wrapped up. Like there's a 0:40:15.440 --> 0:40:18.080 lot of people that feel like they're living vicariously through 0:40:18.120 --> 0:40:20.400 this experience, Like and because it's been such a consistent 0:40:20.400 --> 0:40:22.680 thing we talked about UM and some people are probably 0:40:22.680 --> 0:40:24.400 just so sick and tired of me talking about it. 0:40:24.440 --> 0:40:27.560 I just want to move on to something new. You know, 0:40:27.600 --> 0:40:30.000 what's refreshing about you? I like about you One of 0:40:30.040 --> 0:40:33.840 the things is that the there's sort of these national 0:40:33.960 --> 0:40:37.839 standards in big bucks, right where people sort of like, 0:40:38.760 --> 0:40:42.160 what is an acceptable big giant buck is set by 0:40:42.200 --> 0:40:46.240 like very specific regions that just for a multitude of reasons, 0:40:46.239 --> 0:40:50.600 are able to produce genuine, big, huge giant bucks, right, 0:40:51.000 --> 0:40:54.239 Like big huge giant box used to like for a 0:40:54.239 --> 0:40:56.840 while it was like Alberta, right, That's where big bucks 0:40:56.880 --> 0:40:58.920 came from, and then it woant not be in that 0:40:59.360 --> 0:41:02.440 certain place. Is like certain places in Illinois and Iowa 0:41:02.520 --> 0:41:04.439 started like cranking out big bucks, and they would set 0:41:04.520 --> 0:41:07.919 sort of the national standard of what's a big buck. 0:41:08.160 --> 0:41:10.000 So if you're gonna put a buck on like the 0:41:10.040 --> 0:41:14.239 cover of a magazine, bucks on the covers of magazines 0:41:14.320 --> 0:41:17.719 are oftentimes not even real bucks you'll have. There are 0:41:17.800 --> 0:41:22.840 magazines in existence that's who have an editorial stance against 0:41:22.880 --> 0:41:26.000 the captive servant industry. So they have an editorial stance 0:41:26.040 --> 0:41:32.719 against pen raised deer and canned hunts, yet they adorn 0:41:32.880 --> 0:41:38.000 their own covers with pen raised bucks. And it creates 0:41:38.040 --> 0:41:39.880 the same way that you hear and I'm I'm attuned 0:41:39.920 --> 0:41:41.719 to this now that I have a daughter, the same 0:41:41.719 --> 0:41:44.240 way that you hear that there's a standard of beauty 0:41:44.320 --> 0:41:47.240 put forth by the fashion industry and by the media 0:41:47.280 --> 0:41:50.640 that is unachievable by most women who don't have the 0:41:50.920 --> 0:41:53.880 time and money to devote to their appearance. Where we 0:41:53.880 --> 0:41:56.239 would create like a beauty standard. I mean, you know, 0:41:56.480 --> 0:41:58.120 I'm aware this. This doesn't keep me up at night, 0:41:58.160 --> 0:42:00.719 but it's the thing people talk about, the same thing 0:42:00.719 --> 0:42:05.719 happens with bucks, right, But you have like you, for 0:42:05.760 --> 0:42:09.600 whatever reason, don't feel that you're able to look and 0:42:09.640 --> 0:42:12.040 be like, well, what is like good for the area? 0:42:12.880 --> 0:42:16.440 Like what is a big buck kind of for a 0:42:16.520 --> 0:42:20.000 normal guy hunting normal kind of little ninety acre parcels 0:42:20.000 --> 0:42:23.959 of land in a heavily hunted area and celebrate those 0:42:24.000 --> 0:42:27.839 deer without feeling that you need to go down and 0:42:27.840 --> 0:42:30.040 and and you go down to Texas to a high 0:42:30.120 --> 0:42:33.360 fence place to enter into the real white tail guy world. 0:42:34.239 --> 0:42:38.480 Oh yeah, I think that one of the um one 0:42:38.520 --> 0:42:41.720 thing that has come out of the deer hunting media 0:42:42.040 --> 0:42:46.160 world has been just the setting of unrealistic expectations for people, 0:42:46.160 --> 0:42:48.359 because if you watch TV, all you see are these 0:42:49.080 --> 0:42:53.120 gigantic bucks being killed so easily, it seems every single 0:42:53.160 --> 0:42:55.040 time you watch a show. But they're an Aisle or 0:42:55.080 --> 0:42:58.600 Illinois or Kansas and they're hunting tightly managed thousand acre 0:42:59.520 --> 0:43:02.520 it's just thing that people can't relate to. But then 0:43:02.520 --> 0:43:05.520 you get people, even especially maybe newer hunters, that watch 0:43:05.560 --> 0:43:07.840 that stuff. That's their only way of establishing in context 0:43:07.920 --> 0:43:10.360 for what is good or what I'm supposed to do. 0:43:10.440 --> 0:43:12.520 So then they start hunting and they're thinking like, yeah, 0:43:12.520 --> 0:43:14.360 I shoot a buck like that, and they get disappointed 0:43:14.360 --> 0:43:17.120 and the frustrated they hang it out like apologetic about 0:43:17.120 --> 0:43:18.640 their deer all the time, which is that's like the 0:43:18.680 --> 0:43:20.759 really painful part to me is when people like send 0:43:20.760 --> 0:43:23.200 you pictures like yeah, it's just a little one, you know, 0:43:23.360 --> 0:43:25.960 But I'm like, dude, don't be like so disrespectful to 0:43:26.000 --> 0:43:29.000 the animals. Man. You know, I think any animal you kill, 0:43:29.120 --> 0:43:32.520 I mean should be celebrated and respected, and that is awesome. 0:43:32.560 --> 0:43:36.239 I think everybody needs to set their own goals for 0:43:36.320 --> 0:43:39.440 what that experience, for what experience they want. So for me, 0:43:40.080 --> 0:43:43.279 you know, I like to target mature bucks because I 0:43:43.360 --> 0:43:45.960 want a certain experience out of that hunting season. If 0:43:46.000 --> 0:43:48.240 I were shooting the first year I saw my hunting 0:43:48.280 --> 0:43:51.720 season be done, it would be an evening and evening 0:43:51.760 --> 0:43:54.920 event um so so out of my hunting experience, I 0:43:54.960 --> 0:43:59.280 of course want me. I also want a lengthy experience. 0:43:59.280 --> 0:44:01.160 I want to be out there for a long period 0:44:01.200 --> 0:44:03.239 of time. I want to be learning and observing and 0:44:03.280 --> 0:44:07.320 interacting with these animals. I want to challenge um. And 0:44:07.840 --> 0:44:11.960 you know, hunting mature buck allows that whole thing to happen, 0:44:12.080 --> 0:44:14.279 and I enjoy that chess match. I enjoy whether it 0:44:14.280 --> 0:44:17.040 be a situation like this where I hunt one single 0:44:17.040 --> 0:44:19.239 property and learn a specific buck like that is a 0:44:19.280 --> 0:44:23.520 really interesting, unique way to engage with like with an animal. 0:44:24.239 --> 0:44:26.040 And then I also enjoy the challenge of, like going 0:44:26.040 --> 0:44:27.959 to a brand new place. I don't know anything there, 0:44:28.080 --> 0:44:30.040 and I just enjoy the challenge of trying to learn 0:44:30.040 --> 0:44:32.520 that property and learn what's happening here, How can I 0:44:32.560 --> 0:44:34.279 interact with how can I set up and kill a 0:44:34.280 --> 0:44:37.160 deer here? There's something really cool about all these different things. 0:44:37.400 --> 0:44:39.560 But that buck, this buck you've been watching for these 0:44:39.600 --> 0:44:42.359 three years, is that right? For three years? You've been 0:44:42.360 --> 0:44:44.400 aware of him for three years. This buck you've been 0:44:44.440 --> 0:44:46.680 watched for three years, he knows so intimately, and he's 0:44:46.719 --> 0:44:48.400 kind of in the autumn of his life. Whether you 0:44:48.400 --> 0:44:49.840 give him or not. He's in the autumn of his 0:44:49.920 --> 0:44:53.200 life all that. That's something bitch, still wouldn't make the 0:44:53.200 --> 0:44:56.280 cover of a magazine. No, No, you're not even close. 0:44:57.320 --> 0:45:00.600 Like why is that? Okay, I don't mean that socially, 0:45:01.600 --> 0:45:04.160 which is what let's explore it. Socially. It won't make 0:45:04.200 --> 0:45:06.160 the cover of the magazine because it doesn't meet sort 0:45:06.160 --> 0:45:10.080 of the national thing, sort of the the national somewhat 0:45:10.160 --> 0:45:12.720 false notion of what a big buck is supposed to look. Correct, 0:45:12.760 --> 0:45:18.319 that's a social aspect. But why is it that that 0:45:18.400 --> 0:45:20.880 deer could be five and a half years old and 0:45:20.960 --> 0:45:26.799 be that big. But a deer from Buffalo Connie, Wisconsin, 0:45:27.000 --> 0:45:28.800 that's five and a half years old, you're gonna be 0:45:28.800 --> 0:45:32.759 able fit that deer's antlers inside that Buffalo County deer's antlers. 0:45:32.800 --> 0:45:35.799 So there's two high level things going on there. One 0:45:35.840 --> 0:45:39.800 would be habited nutrition and one would be genetics. Um. 0:45:39.880 --> 0:45:44.560 So this buck just doesn't have the genetics to develop 0:45:44.600 --> 0:45:48.960 into a gigantic deer. Um, he just hears what he is. Gigantic. 0:45:49.320 --> 0:45:52.840 Gigantic antler deer are very rare. I mean, even in 0:45:52.920 --> 0:45:55.920 places like Buffalo County, they're still relatively rare compared to 0:45:55.920 --> 0:45:59.560 the average um. So most mature bucks, probably even in 0:45:59.600 --> 0:46:01.759 the best places in the in the country, are still 0:46:01.760 --> 0:46:03.600 going to be you know, a five six year old 0:46:03.640 --> 0:46:07.320 buck with great habitat nutrition maybe would only be hundred 0:46:07.320 --> 0:46:10.399 and forty. So they don't all in those places. All 0:46:10.560 --> 0:46:13.360 old bucks aren't huge, not all. It's it's always a 0:46:13.360 --> 0:46:16.320 bell curve, right, so there's always gonna be that average. 0:46:16.600 --> 0:46:18.799 You know, most of your bucks maybe at five or six, 0:46:18.880 --> 0:46:22.920 might be hundred. Remember when we were in Texas, in 0:46:22.960 --> 0:46:27.000 the amount of like cold bucks that that manager was 0:46:27.000 --> 0:46:30.200 shooting that they were, they were in that range. They 0:46:30.200 --> 0:46:35.879 were hundred forty bucks, but he was shooting him for 0:46:36.000 --> 0:46:38.320 a couple of reasons. One, they weren't gonna get big. 0:46:38.520 --> 0:46:41.320 But by taking them all out along with hundreds of dose, 0:46:41.800 --> 0:46:45.279 he was leaving more habitat, more nutrition for you know, 0:46:45.520 --> 0:46:47.759 the ones that they're really trying to An interesting thing 0:46:47.800 --> 0:46:54.560 that that that dude brought up is talk about the stress, right, 0:46:54.600 --> 0:46:57.840 just less competition with the other dear. He felt that 0:46:58.640 --> 0:47:02.400 by and this guy's this guy manages an extremely large 0:47:02.600 --> 0:47:08.560 property for some fairly wealthy individuals, and his mandate is 0:47:08.600 --> 0:47:14.680 to produce to have this giant property more than ten 0:47:14.760 --> 0:47:16.719 times the size of the property you're talking about it. 0:47:16.800 --> 0:47:21.560 I believe um, he's supposed to produce every year two 0:47:21.920 --> 0:47:27.280 gigantic bucks. That's his mandate, and he's a full time 0:47:27.600 --> 0:47:30.840 manager on this place to create two gigantic bucks. And 0:47:30.880 --> 0:47:33.719 his efforts to create two gigantic gigantic bucks. Once he 0:47:33.760 --> 0:47:39.280 identifies some candidates, they go in and start and systematically 0:47:39.400 --> 0:47:44.680 remove the competitors of those candidates to give those competitors 0:47:44.800 --> 0:47:52.280 less stress, because stress inhibits antler growth. I would concur 0:47:52.800 --> 0:47:55.400 I think that falls into your habitat and or just 0:47:55.800 --> 0:47:58.960 herd dynamics. So this buck feels like he's just lucky, 0:47:58.960 --> 0:48:03.719 but meanwhile he's just being watched and coddled. But you 0:48:03.760 --> 0:48:05.920 would think until you talk to the guy, but then 0:48:05.960 --> 0:48:09.440 he talks about this that even with all of that, 0:48:09.480 --> 0:48:12.319 there are bucks that vanish, and there are bucks that 0:48:12.440 --> 0:48:14.359 all of a sudden that you see him once and 0:48:14.440 --> 0:48:18.000 never see him again. The mystery, like there's still a 0:48:18.000 --> 0:48:20.759 tremendous amount of mystery as much as he's like just 0:48:20.920 --> 0:48:24.040 actively doing this, Like one day one shows up on 0:48:24.080 --> 0:48:26.400 a camera and you never see him again. But and 0:48:26.520 --> 0:48:28.560 that's some thick, thick country. I mean you want to 0:48:28.600 --> 0:48:30.880 talk about Michigan being thick. I mean, this is the 0:48:30.880 --> 0:48:33.560 country that there's places where you just don't even go 0:48:33.719 --> 0:48:37.280 into it because it's so thorny and nasty. Yeah, everything's 0:48:37.280 --> 0:48:40.240 like twelve feet high. Once you get up on a ladder, 0:48:40.320 --> 0:48:41.799 so holy ship, you can see a long ways, but 0:48:41.840 --> 0:48:43.879 you can talk on the ground. Yeah, I just can't 0:48:43.880 --> 0:48:48.640 see anything. But so so that the genetics deal and 0:48:48.680 --> 0:48:53.680 then the nutrition, yeah, I think and and and then 0:48:53.760 --> 0:48:57.160 you made a good good soil porcelo soil, and then 0:48:57.200 --> 0:48:59.520 what what kind of available food sources and everything. So 0:48:59.600 --> 0:49:02.759 of course deer that live in agricultural country are going 0:49:02.800 --> 0:49:05.960 to have terrific amounts of food and protein that things 0:49:06.000 --> 0:49:08.960 they need to grow big anglers um. And then soil 0:49:09.000 --> 0:49:10.600 does make a big difference too, So that's why you 0:49:10.640 --> 0:49:13.600 see such tremendous production of big angler deer along like 0:49:13.600 --> 0:49:16.520 the Mississippi River Corridor and all that stuff going on 0:49:16.600 --> 0:49:19.759 there by you doug um. So those types of things 0:49:19.840 --> 0:49:23.839 do lead to these genetic um or these I don't 0:49:23.840 --> 0:49:26.080 know if you gonna call it freaks, but these huge 0:49:26.160 --> 0:49:27.960 antler deer that you're just not going to see as 0:49:28.000 --> 0:49:33.160 often in other places. So how I'm back on your 0:49:33.160 --> 0:49:35.680 deer again. So how big of a deer, how big 0:49:35.719 --> 0:49:38.760 of how big of a body is He's a tanker, 0:49:39.400 --> 0:49:43.479 big old body, just a huge girthy chest. His neck 0:49:43.560 --> 0:49:47.279 like seamlessly goes right into his shoulders and chest. And 0:49:47.560 --> 0:49:53.680 when he walks around, he's got those curls on his neck. Yeah, 0:49:54.120 --> 0:49:57.040 foot on the floor over there, and he's got the 0:49:57.080 --> 0:50:00.400 sagging belly. Um. So I mean yeah, I mean, I 0:50:00.440 --> 0:50:04.600 love just a big bodied, mature buck. I mean. And 0:50:04.600 --> 0:50:06.960 we're talking a lot about inches and antlers and stuff, 0:50:06.960 --> 0:50:10.840 and I just want to make sure antlers are cool, right, 0:50:10.880 --> 0:50:13.279 and we enjoy big antler deer there neat to see. 0:50:13.520 --> 0:50:16.319 They're where, they're rare, they're special because, like we just 0:50:16.320 --> 0:50:20.040 talked about, large antler deer are are not the the 0:50:20.120 --> 0:50:22.319 average thing here to see. So there to be, in 0:50:22.360 --> 0:50:25.200 my opinion, there to be appreciated and valued. And it's 0:50:25.239 --> 0:50:27.600 neat to hunt. But that's not all there is. Like 0:50:27.920 --> 0:50:30.839 there's such an antler craze in the white tailed world. 0:50:30.840 --> 0:50:33.640 So many people are fixated on that that's been around 0:50:33.640 --> 0:50:36.840 for for for But I just always want to be 0:50:36.880 --> 0:50:40.040 careful to make sure that even though I might talk 0:50:40.080 --> 0:50:42.359 about it in a conversation like that, that's not all 0:50:42.360 --> 0:50:44.840 there is. There's so much more to it. Like so, 0:50:44.880 --> 0:50:47.080 I'm glad you brought body size and different things like that, 0:50:47.200 --> 0:50:50.400 or or history and experience of the deer or a 0:50:50.480 --> 0:50:53.080 set of circumstances. I mean, all those things make that 0:50:53.600 --> 0:50:57.280 hunt that deer uh special. Yeah, I'm glad you brought 0:50:57.320 --> 0:51:00.160 that up. Go ahead. Well, I's just gonna say, you know, uh, 0:51:00.560 --> 0:51:04.319 you folks talk about trophy country and trophy hunts and 0:51:04.320 --> 0:51:06.839 that sort of stuff, and and and I think it's 0:51:06.840 --> 0:51:09.360 the same thing with white tails. My my favorite hunts 0:51:09.840 --> 0:51:11.880 are the ones that we've had these great stories about, 0:51:12.080 --> 0:51:15.600 you know, a group of people hunting together, you know, 0:51:15.640 --> 0:51:18.359 we get this dear or or like your story where 0:51:18.360 --> 0:51:22.040 you watched him for a period of time and and uh, 0:51:22.080 --> 0:51:23.879 you know, rather than and he came out and well 0:51:23.880 --> 0:51:25.520 I never saw him before I shot him. And it's 0:51:25.560 --> 0:51:27.440 not much of a story, you know, it's not it's 0:51:27.440 --> 0:51:29.520 not that it's not a great deer or anything like that, 0:51:29.600 --> 0:51:32.799 but I think the story really makes the you know, 0:51:32.840 --> 0:51:35.640 and maybe the suffering or sort of like we just 0:51:35.719 --> 0:51:38.200 did you know, we could have shot a caribou hundred 0:51:38.239 --> 0:51:41.279 yards from our camp. But um, we went out and 0:51:41.280 --> 0:51:43.279 went through a full experience. I mean each one of 0:51:43.360 --> 0:51:47.000 us did some more than others. But I don't think that, uh, 0:51:47.160 --> 0:51:49.920 I want to get back to like the aunt, the 0:51:49.920 --> 0:51:51.880 scoring system, and what people mean when they say a 0:51:51.920 --> 0:51:55.320 hundred forty inches of altland. But I'll point out that 0:51:55.480 --> 0:51:57.080 is a good story if all of a sudden do 0:51:57.160 --> 0:52:01.200 you didn't know about pops out because the uh, the woods, 0:52:01.520 --> 0:52:03.799 there's supposed to be an element that's supposed to be 0:52:03.840 --> 0:52:06.040 it's nice, and there's an element of the unknown and 0:52:06.040 --> 0:52:09.040 the element of the surprise and the element of mystery. Yeah, 0:52:09.600 --> 0:52:11.600 I've it like it doesn't like I don't think it 0:52:11.600 --> 0:52:13.400 needs to be that in order for it to be 0:52:13.520 --> 0:52:16.799 legit and needs to have like this agricultural overtone where 0:52:16.800 --> 0:52:20.320 you're like raising this deer up and taking care of him. 0:52:20.400 --> 0:52:22.120 I think there's lots of different ways that can be neat. 0:52:22.160 --> 0:52:25.200 I mean, like my experience I'm having with this deer 0:52:25.239 --> 0:52:27.600 I think is unique and like super valuable and I'm 0:52:27.840 --> 0:52:29.800 really enjoying it. But I think to your point to 0:52:30.600 --> 0:52:32.920 showing up in a new place and seeing that deer 0:52:32.920 --> 0:52:35.040 for the first time, that that that moment when you 0:52:35.080 --> 0:52:37.160 first see this deer in the shock, like, oh my gosh, 0:52:37.200 --> 0:52:39.280 this is gonna happen, Like that can be really special 0:52:39.320 --> 0:52:42.520 to um. But I think, you know, it's just different. 0:52:42.640 --> 0:52:45.200 I like to surprise, you know, um one of the 0:52:45.520 --> 0:52:47.200 on our farm. I used to do a lot more 0:52:47.280 --> 0:52:49.160 trail camera stuff, and I still do a lot of 0:52:49.160 --> 0:52:52.520 it on client properties, but I don't I haven't had 0:52:52.600 --> 0:52:55.000 trail cameras out at all this year, and you know, 0:52:55.560 --> 0:52:57.640 very very few even at the end of the year 0:52:57.719 --> 0:52:59.320 last year in our property. Words I had in my 0:52:59.400 --> 0:53:01.960 other other people's property because they're that's what I'm supposed 0:53:01.960 --> 0:53:04.719 to be doing online sort of like I don't know, 0:53:05.680 --> 0:53:07.839 kind of like that element of surprise. Also, you hear 0:53:07.880 --> 0:53:09.680 about this popping up more and more like the white 0:53:09.719 --> 0:53:13.200 Tail community, like that exact notion being that kind of 0:53:13.239 --> 0:53:15.319 just like some of us we get overloaded on our 0:53:15.320 --> 0:53:16.840 cell phones, so like you need to purge it for 0:53:16.880 --> 0:53:18.640 a while and you just you know, take off your 0:53:18.640 --> 0:53:20.359 Facebook app or whatever so you're not on there all 0:53:20.360 --> 0:53:22.399 the time. It's just too much. I know a lot 0:53:22.400 --> 0:53:24.080 of people that I feel the same way about trail 0:53:24.120 --> 0:53:26.680 cameras are I know what lost the mystery of it 0:53:26.760 --> 0:53:29.560 you know everything or no, the deer that you're ever 0:53:29.560 --> 0:53:32.440 going to see. So I can I can totally understand 0:53:32.480 --> 0:53:34.680 that I enjoy using trail cameras. But at the same time, 0:53:35.040 --> 0:53:37.400 I do like the idea of of that mystery, that 0:53:37.480 --> 0:53:40.040 surprise excitement. So I know, guys that are starting to 0:53:40.520 --> 0:53:44.960 get rid of them, Yeah, the trail I like trail cams. Like, 0:53:45.120 --> 0:53:47.840 there's a few things I like about him. One it 0:53:47.920 --> 0:53:50.920 just you want to becoming more educated, right, You're like, 0:53:51.040 --> 0:53:54.000 no more, you have more information. You know more about 0:53:54.600 --> 0:53:56.920 animals and how they move and how they interact with 0:53:56.960 --> 0:54:00.239 their environment. It's a valuable asset to a lot. Tro 0:54:00.400 --> 0:54:04.080 Cam images have like a surreal beauty to them that 0:54:05.360 --> 0:54:08.879 it's just just like that, just the sort of the 0:54:09.000 --> 0:54:11.680 without the hand of man really there at the second. 0:54:11.719 --> 0:54:15.839 Just like these like motion sensor activated images sometimes they're 0:54:15.880 --> 0:54:19.960 just incredible, Like it clicks at a time when a 0:54:20.000 --> 0:54:23.080 person wouldn't click, and the result is sometimes like stunningly 0:54:23.160 --> 0:54:28.000 beautiful of animals in their environment, completely unaware of any 0:54:28.080 --> 0:54:32.160 kind of intrusion. There's a beauty to it. Now when 0:54:32.239 --> 0:54:34.239 earlier market I want to step back to top of this, 0:54:34.239 --> 0:54:36.279 you're talking about hundred forty and I think a lot 0:54:36.280 --> 0:54:39.160 of people don't understand it so well. Mark's referring to 0:54:39.280 --> 0:54:42.960 is a number that comes from the Boone and Crocket Club, 0:54:43.040 --> 0:54:46.760 now the Boone and Crockett Club and ORP and or popion. 0:54:48.000 --> 0:54:50.920 Let's talk about boding Crocket promitt. But Boone and Crockett 0:54:51.120 --> 0:54:56.719 um originated it, right, and they predate they pre date 0:54:56.800 --> 0:54:58.960 Pope Young by fifty years. And it's it's essentially the 0:54:59.000 --> 0:55:05.560 same measuring system. It's just one's bow. Ones. In the 0:55:05.640 --> 0:55:08.920 late eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds, one wildlife populations in 0:55:08.920 --> 0:55:13.000 America were collapsing and near collapse and some of them gone. 0:55:13.880 --> 0:55:21.200 Um Theodore Roosevelt and the other number of influential conservationist 0:55:21.280 --> 0:55:24.479 hunters started a group called the Boone and Crocket Club 0:55:24.960 --> 0:55:28.160 and their initial mandate, their their initial like reason for 0:55:28.239 --> 0:55:34.440 existence was to establish and push for the enforcement of 0:55:34.560 --> 0:55:37.640 game laws in Yellowstone was in the first places. So 0:55:37.680 --> 0:55:40.400 they had this idea that let's have it be that 0:55:40.520 --> 0:55:46.640 instead of the unregulated commercial slaughter of wildlife, we will 0:55:46.760 --> 0:55:51.040 establish bag limits and seasons and parameters under which people hunt. 0:55:51.239 --> 0:55:53.319 And that was how the Boone and Crockett Club, that 0:55:53.440 --> 0:55:56.080 was their initial thing. They were starting from the ground up. 0:55:56.680 --> 0:56:01.160 There was nothing in place. The system of scoring that 0:56:01.200 --> 0:56:05.360 eventually came out of this was a way to catalog 0:56:05.760 --> 0:56:11.759 animal populations. And at the time, um, you know, you 0:56:11.800 --> 0:56:15.080 didn't have genetic stuff, you didn't have sophisticated aging data, 0:56:15.120 --> 0:56:17.520 and they didn't understand like tooth analysis and all this 0:56:17.600 --> 0:56:20.080 other kind of ship. A thing that's just very obvious 0:56:20.320 --> 0:56:24.720 is the antlers on the males or in and bears 0:56:24.760 --> 0:56:26.440 is the general school size. And so the kind of 0:56:26.480 --> 0:56:33.040 way to say, like, how can we objectively measure and 0:56:33.239 --> 0:56:38.360 animals antlers in a way that is replicable where any 0:56:38.600 --> 0:56:41.680 two individuals could look at it and apply the same 0:56:42.480 --> 0:56:45.800 metrics to it. And they came up with a scoring system. 0:56:45.840 --> 0:56:48.759 The thinking being that if you were to score these 0:56:48.760 --> 0:56:53.640 things and then track these populations over time, since antlers 0:56:53.760 --> 0:56:57.880 are a product of age and habitat, age and environment, 0:56:58.320 --> 0:57:00.480 you would be able to see long term term and 0:57:00.600 --> 0:57:03.880 short term trends and antler growth and tell about the 0:57:03.880 --> 0:57:07.279 stability of a population. If you have a population, let's 0:57:07.280 --> 0:57:09.640 say you just there they were in conversation talk about this. 0:57:09.719 --> 0:57:12.279 Let's say in Colorado you have that every year Colorado 0:57:12.760 --> 0:57:16.560 produces ten bucks that have that score a two D 0:57:16.720 --> 0:57:19.600 on this measuring system. Ten meal gear box score a 0:57:19.680 --> 0:57:22.120 two or better on this measuring system. And then you 0:57:22.120 --> 0:57:25.400 realize a decade goes by and not a single buck 0:57:25.520 --> 0:57:29.320 comes out of Colorado scoring a two on this measuring system. 0:57:29.600 --> 0:57:33.640 You would look and think something is a miss in Colorado. 0:57:33.760 --> 0:57:40.160 Something is not there that was there once but now not. 0:57:40.240 --> 0:57:44.760 But now in addition to that, people also, well, let 0:57:44.760 --> 0:57:47.560 me add another thing to this. Years ago on on 0:57:47.560 --> 0:57:50.680 an island where I have a hunting and fishing shack, 0:57:50.920 --> 0:57:55.200 years ago, a non resons allowed to bears on that 0:57:55.240 --> 0:57:58.520 island every year. Then it became like a bear. Then 0:57:58.520 --> 0:58:00.520 it became that you have to draw an it's only 0:58:00.560 --> 0:58:02.800 about a fift chance of being able to get a 0:58:02.880 --> 0:58:06.320 bear on the island. That was because they had noticed 0:58:06.440 --> 0:58:13.280 a very slight but gradual decline in the average bear 0:58:13.400 --> 0:58:16.560 skull coming off of that island, and that hinted to 0:58:16.640 --> 0:58:19.560 them to the idea of over of the potential for 0:58:19.680 --> 0:58:23.480 over harvest, that the bears were shrinking, and they felt 0:58:23.520 --> 0:58:27.280 they were probably shrinking due to selective harvest of large animals. 0:58:27.840 --> 0:58:32.440 So here's where that like that information that metric ability 0:58:32.480 --> 0:58:37.960 influenced management policy. Um, but people also just use it 0:58:38.040 --> 0:58:40.640 and talk about it in a very fluid way, being 0:58:40.680 --> 0:58:45.120 like when you say that, that's what you're saying. And 0:58:45.160 --> 0:58:47.280 it's like a handful of measurements you take. You measure 0:58:47.320 --> 0:58:49.800 each like you measure the main beam and all this 0:58:49.880 --> 0:58:52.720 other ship and the scoring systems so pervasive that people 0:58:52.760 --> 0:58:55.560 don't even talk about times anymore. They talk about G 0:58:55.840 --> 0:58:58.040 two's and all this ship because when you fill out 0:58:58.040 --> 0:59:02.000 the form, there's measurements like what do the measurements look like? Yeah, 0:59:02.080 --> 0:59:04.760 you know about heart G one, two, three, four, those 0:59:04.760 --> 0:59:07.120 are your main times, Yeah, and you got your main 0:59:07.160 --> 0:59:10.760 beam lengths and your inside spread like his G two 0:59:11.280 --> 0:59:13.320 his right G two is this and that just because 0:59:13.480 --> 0:59:15.520 when you fill out the form, that line of the 0:59:15.560 --> 0:59:17.760 form is for the G two. It was funny when 0:59:17.800 --> 0:59:20.000 we were looking at our caribou, I was like trying 0:59:20.040 --> 0:59:21.880 to refer to a point I didn't know. Can I 0:59:21.920 --> 0:59:25.440 call us? Is this like the G Yeah? Yeah, I 0:59:25.480 --> 0:59:27.200 haven't looked at how you score? Could I don't know? 0:59:27.320 --> 0:59:29.600 But that's of marks getting at with with the score thing. 0:59:29.920 --> 0:59:31.800 But a big like I think that when I saw 0:59:31.840 --> 0:59:34.640 about in the national sense, like big, huge, giant white 0:59:34.640 --> 0:59:38.240 tailed box aren't really guarded as big, huge box until 0:59:38.280 --> 0:59:41.320 they get to like have one inches of antler. That's 0:59:41.360 --> 0:59:44.040 like the like with mule deer. It's like if I 0:59:44.080 --> 0:59:46.840 could only kill a two in buck with elk, if 0:59:46.840 --> 0:59:49.640 I can only kill four inch bull with white tails, 0:59:49.640 --> 0:59:51.960 it's what I think one seventy because that's boon. That's 0:59:51.960 --> 0:59:53.880 a booner boon and cracker buck and make the boon 0:59:53.960 --> 0:59:57.400 and cracker record record books. I mean, but again, it's 0:59:57.400 --> 0:59:59.480 all relative. Like a guy in New Hampshire if he 0:59:59.520 --> 1:00:02.600 sees a hun during fifteen or hundred buck, he should 1:00:02.600 --> 1:00:05.440 be stoked. That's an amazing buck in that area, or 1:00:05.480 --> 1:00:07.200 in Michigan if you've got to. If so, if you 1:00:07.680 --> 1:00:12.200 duck is a hoping young buck, um gross well net 1:00:12.280 --> 1:00:16.720 but um in Michigan is like a pretty nice deer 1:00:16.840 --> 1:00:20.280 hundred fifty inches a giant deer in Michigan. Um in Wisconsin. 1:00:20.360 --> 1:00:22.840 I'm sure hundred buck where you're at, it's like it's 1:00:22.840 --> 1:00:25.120 a nice buck. I would guess, but I don't know. 1:00:27.360 --> 1:00:30.520 Get shot. Yeah, there's everybody will shoot that deer. But 1:00:30.560 --> 1:00:33.960 I mean, I'm guessing, like if that bucks you pull 1:00:34.040 --> 1:00:35.240 up with that in the back of the pickup truck, 1:00:35.240 --> 1:00:37.160 and people like on nice buck. If you pull up 1:00:37.160 --> 1:00:38.600 with that buck at the buck pole and opening it 1:00:38.600 --> 1:00:40.680 to a gun season, there's a two hundred people swarmed 1:00:40.720 --> 1:00:43.560 around at taking pictures and looking at him. To what 1:00:43.680 --> 1:00:46.120 degree because of your career? To what degree do you 1:00:46.120 --> 1:00:48.240 feel like you have to go shoot Big Bucks in 1:00:48.320 --> 1:00:51.320 order to like maintain your career? Would your career exists 1:00:51.360 --> 1:00:53.480 if you never shot a Big Buck? So early on, 1:00:53.520 --> 1:00:55.880 I thought so, I had this pressure like the first 1:00:55.880 --> 1:00:58.880 few years when you know, I was trying to build 1:00:58.960 --> 1:01:01.320 this this website, in this brand everything. I thought like, 1:01:01.400 --> 1:01:03.200 I gotta kill Big Bucks, and I stressed about it 1:01:03.200 --> 1:01:05.720 every year and stuff. Won't you won't be a businessman, 1:01:05.920 --> 1:01:08.560 you won't be a white tailed guy, I think. I think, Um, now, 1:01:08.680 --> 1:01:11.160 I don't worry about that nearly as much because I 1:01:11.200 --> 1:01:14.160 have not staked my reputation or what I'm doing on 1:01:14.440 --> 1:01:16.480 in any sense trying to claim like I'm the best 1:01:16.480 --> 1:01:18.240 deer hunter out there, or I'm an expert all all 1:01:18.240 --> 1:01:22.520 of stuff. What how I communicate in in in what 1:01:22.600 --> 1:01:24.800 I do, the service I think I provide. Is I 1:01:24.800 --> 1:01:29.120 I am a um just voracious learner. I love to learn. 1:01:29.160 --> 1:01:31.000 I want to consume as much as possible. I want 1:01:31.040 --> 1:01:32.760 to talk to as many different people as possible. So 1:01:32.800 --> 1:01:35.000 I'm I'm trying to take in every different input I 1:01:35.040 --> 1:01:37.720 possibly can, and then I try to share what I learned. 1:01:37.800 --> 1:01:40.479 And then I share my experiences lots of failures, lots 1:01:40.480 --> 1:01:44.320 of mistakes, occasional successes, and I share that real experience 1:01:44.360 --> 1:01:47.600 with my listeners, readers, etcetera. And I think that's much 1:01:47.640 --> 1:01:50.880 more relatable than the guy that kills a eight years 1:01:50.920 --> 1:01:55.800 buck every single year, doing it one specific way. Um 1:01:55.880 --> 1:01:57.800 So now I don't want necessarily where of course, like 1:01:58.440 --> 1:02:00.760 I need to have some credibility and they can you'd 1:02:00.800 --> 1:02:02.720 like to see that the things I'm learning and trying 1:02:02.720 --> 1:02:05.840 and doing are you know, paying off and that you know, okay, 1:02:05.920 --> 1:02:08.479 he tried to actually talked about X resulted in why? 1:02:08.880 --> 1:02:11.440 So that content is I think just more relevant to 1:02:11.480 --> 1:02:15.400 a larger, you know group of the you know, your listeners. 1:02:15.720 --> 1:02:17.840 And I think that's where your credibility is. Talking with 1:02:17.880 --> 1:02:21.000 you about white tails. I really enjoyed the conversations, and 1:02:21.040 --> 1:02:25.840 it's your experiences and the stuff the way you're looking 1:02:25.880 --> 1:02:29.440 at it all as the credibilities really there, and I think, 1:02:29.480 --> 1:02:31.560 you know, and the other thing I've done is that 1:02:32.520 --> 1:02:35.960 I'm not embarrassed to share like everything, and so I've 1:02:36.360 --> 1:02:38.760 I've shared all sorts of failures and mistakes I've made, 1:02:38.760 --> 1:02:41.040 and that's pretty rare within the white tailed world too. 1:02:41.400 --> 1:02:43.840 And so like on someone at one point said like, 1:02:44.000 --> 1:02:45.880 I just love your stuff, and he's like, and I 1:02:45.880 --> 1:02:48.840 think it's because you've cornered the market on failure you've done. 1:02:49.160 --> 1:02:51.280 You've done a great job of sharing all the mistakes 1:02:51.280 --> 1:02:53.400 you've made. So but you know what, we all make mistakes, 1:02:53.440 --> 1:02:55.640 we all fail sometimes, just most people don't want to 1:02:55.640 --> 1:02:58.160 talk about it, and I'm I'm okay putting it out 1:02:58.200 --> 1:03:00.880 there and um hopefully getting as we go along. Everyone 1:03:00.920 --> 1:03:03.960 people have the idea that other people don't want to 1:03:04.000 --> 1:03:08.480 hear about the failures. I probably get more feedback when 1:03:08.520 --> 1:03:11.240 I like, yeah, yeah, when something bad happens, or I 1:03:11.240 --> 1:03:14.440 screw something up, like more emails and messages and stuff like, 1:03:14.440 --> 1:03:16.680 oh that happened to me too, Or I had the 1:03:16.840 --> 1:03:19.760 same issue but I thought it was the only one, 1:03:19.960 --> 1:03:21.960 or I didn't. Never they talked about how to deal 1:03:22.000 --> 1:03:23.720 with it, you know. And so we've walk worked through 1:03:23.760 --> 1:03:26.440 all sorts different channels that we all experience but very 1:03:26.520 --> 1:03:28.520 rarely do you get to follow along with with someone 1:03:28.560 --> 1:03:31.760 else on that experience. And you could do everything right nothing, 1:03:32.520 --> 1:03:34.800 especially with white tails, you can do everything right, and 1:03:34.800 --> 1:03:37.280 for whatever reason, that dear turns and goes away and 1:03:37.320 --> 1:03:38.920 all of that, and it's like you sit there and go, 1:03:39.000 --> 1:03:42.480 what did I do wrong? There? Wild animals? I think 1:03:42.480 --> 1:03:48.400 people who are trying to established some notoriety or establish 1:03:48.520 --> 1:03:52.880 some claim in hunting in order to feed a career, 1:03:53.480 --> 1:03:57.800 like a media type career and hunting. Uh. You hear 1:03:57.840 --> 1:04:00.200 of so many examples, like there's a couple every year 1:04:00.280 --> 1:04:02.320 that come up of where they wind up crossing some 1:04:02.400 --> 1:04:06.440 pretty serious legal and ethical lines in order to achieve it. 1:04:07.200 --> 1:04:09.560 For sure, how much do you know the story about 1:04:09.560 --> 1:04:11.800 the guy we were talking about their day from Michigan, 1:04:12.800 --> 1:04:16.000 the guy from Michigan, How well do you know? I 1:04:16.040 --> 1:04:18.600 couldn't give you all the details that I mean, give 1:04:18.640 --> 1:04:21.200 a sketch of it. Though. The super high level story 1:04:21.320 --> 1:04:25.400 was back in the nineties, this guy um killed this 1:04:25.920 --> 1:04:30.000 gigantic buck up in northern Michigan. It was just incredibly 1:04:30.040 --> 1:04:34.880 widely wide or twice in place, in a place where 1:04:34.920 --> 1:04:36.920 you just would not see a buck like that, and 1:04:37.000 --> 1:04:39.240 it was at the time. I don't remember if it 1:04:39.360 --> 1:04:41.040 was the biggest buck killed in the state at the 1:04:41.080 --> 1:04:42.880 time where they believed it was, but I got a 1:04:42.880 --> 1:04:45.520 lot of notoriety. I was telling you guys. I remember, 1:04:46.040 --> 1:04:47.800 I don't know how how old I was, eight or 1:04:47.800 --> 1:04:50.120 ten or something like that at the time, but I 1:04:50.360 --> 1:04:52.960 even at that age, saw this picture in the newspaper 1:04:52.960 --> 1:04:54.680 and cut out the picture of this buck in the newspaper, 1:04:54.720 --> 1:04:57.520 put it up on my little board. Everybody saw. My 1:04:57.600 --> 1:05:01.480 dad was a score. My dad scored for uh, Pope 1:05:01.480 --> 1:05:03.880 and Young. He's he's like a certified score for Pope 1:05:03.960 --> 1:05:06.560 Young and Boone and Crockett, m U c c all 1:05:06.600 --> 1:05:09.640 that ship. So bucks flooded into our house to be scored, 1:05:09.960 --> 1:05:14.600 and I remember like just the buzz yeah or whatever 1:05:14.600 --> 1:05:16.880 the hell was called. And it's an impressive looking deer. 1:05:16.920 --> 1:05:19.600 I mean even still today when you see the pictures. WHOA. 1:05:20.360 --> 1:05:24.800 But eventually it came out that this was actually not 1:05:24.920 --> 1:05:28.120 a free ranging deer. This is possibly had been raised 1:05:28.120 --> 1:05:33.120 in a pen or different you know, um questionable activities 1:05:33.160 --> 1:05:36.280 had been involved with the with the killing of that dear. 1:05:36.440 --> 1:05:38.640 So it wasn't legit. It was proved, you know, he 1:05:38.680 --> 1:05:40.960 didn't wasn't able to enter it officially in the record books. 1:05:41.000 --> 1:05:42.840 He was kind of ostracized because of that, you know, 1:05:42.840 --> 1:05:46.800 for a good reason. Um. Some people still today say 1:05:46.840 --> 1:05:49.200 he was actually a really good legit hunter and he'd 1:05:49.280 --> 1:05:53.640 killed many bucks in legitimate fashion. Um. But for whatever reason, 1:05:53.840 --> 1:05:57.520 whether it be ego or a desire for notoriety or 1:05:57.560 --> 1:05:59.800 something to your point, he crossed that line in as 1:06:00.000 --> 1:06:02.760 if you a way and it's like there are I 1:06:02.760 --> 1:06:05.120 mean we could if we sat around, we could generate 1:06:05.120 --> 1:06:08.040 a list as long as your are man, dozens of 1:06:08.120 --> 1:06:11.040 cases where that happens. Like what is that? Do you 1:06:11.120 --> 1:06:14.920 understand the pressure? Like have you ever been like man 1:06:15.640 --> 1:06:18.400 um wired the hunt would get a would get a 1:06:18.440 --> 1:06:24.200 shot to the arm if if I just could or 1:06:24.200 --> 1:06:26.680 are you immune to it? I'm immune to it because 1:06:26.720 --> 1:06:30.959 that's just like not me, Like that's not my thing. Um. 1:06:31.000 --> 1:06:33.440 But like I said, I did feel that pressure like 1:06:33.440 --> 1:06:35.880 I should be killing like mature bucks, like you need 1:06:35.920 --> 1:06:39.080 to you have some kind of credibility. Um. But I've 1:06:39.120 --> 1:06:41.240 never been like the type that's trying like I have 1:06:41.240 --> 1:06:43.720 to kill a hunter eight and sure buck or something. 1:06:43.840 --> 1:06:46.080 I'm not trying to be in the cover of a 1:06:46.080 --> 1:06:48.760 magazine or something with that. I just want to do 1:06:48.840 --> 1:06:52.080 something I love, share what I'm learning and help people hopefully. 1:06:52.200 --> 1:06:54.000 So I've never been a position where I thought like 1:06:54.120 --> 1:06:58.080 that was gonna sky. I'm not doing TV or anything. Um, 1:06:58.120 --> 1:06:59.920 but I know lots and lots of people that are. 1:07:00.760 --> 1:07:02.680 And and I think it comes down to, like your 1:07:04.120 --> 1:07:06.800 like the why behind it. And so I think some 1:07:06.880 --> 1:07:10.080 people the why behind wanting a TV show or wanting 1:07:10.160 --> 1:07:12.960 whatever it is because they want fame and fortune and 1:07:13.000 --> 1:07:16.600 attention all that kind of stuff. Um My wife has 1:07:16.600 --> 1:07:18.520 just been different and so I just haven't worried about that. 1:07:19.640 --> 1:07:23.480 What do you say, Uh, do you ever give advice 1:07:23.520 --> 1:07:25.320 to people who wish they had a job in the 1:07:25.920 --> 1:07:30.160 in the like in hunting, like hunting or fishing or whatever, 1:07:30.280 --> 1:07:32.640 Like you gotta have people come and ask you hundreds 1:07:32.680 --> 1:07:36.400 and hunters. What do you tell people? Is there an answer? Yeah? 1:07:36.440 --> 1:07:41.200 I mean yeah, A couple of things. Um, you know 1:07:41.280 --> 1:07:45.120 I can speak to like content related careers because that's 1:07:45.160 --> 1:07:47.720 what I do, like the media type stuff. Um, So 1:07:47.800 --> 1:07:50.160 I would say number one, like figure out what your 1:07:52.440 --> 1:07:55.840 what whatever medium or type of thing is that you 1:07:55.880 --> 1:07:57.959 can do, Like either you have a natural skill set 1:07:58.080 --> 1:08:00.520 or experience in it or a passion. So are you 1:08:00.560 --> 1:08:02.720 gonna write, are you going to film? Are you going 1:08:02.760 --> 1:08:07.400 to photograph? Are you going to whatever it might be? Um? 1:08:07.480 --> 1:08:10.560 So what's like? Okay, once you figure that out, and 1:08:10.560 --> 1:08:13.120 then number two, just do it, like create stuff, like 1:08:13.160 --> 1:08:15.920 get out there, have experiences and put it out there. 1:08:15.960 --> 1:08:18.840 So for me, when I started a blog a website, 1:08:19.080 --> 1:08:23.200 um yeah, I had no reason that people should have 1:08:23.240 --> 1:08:25.120 been reading what I had to say. I had no 1:08:25.160 --> 1:08:28.080 one knew who this Mark Kenyon guy was. Um, but 1:08:28.160 --> 1:08:31.160 I just created. So I was just constantly writing, constantly 1:08:31.200 --> 1:08:34.120 producing content. And so so my advice is number one, 1:08:34.120 --> 1:08:35.800 pick what you what you're passionate about, what you want 1:08:35.800 --> 1:08:39.040 to do. Number two, do it, create it, and by 1:08:39.080 --> 1:08:41.280 doing it you get better, Like you can fine tune 1:08:41.280 --> 1:08:42.559 that craft the more you do it. But if you 1:08:42.600 --> 1:08:45.240 sit around and thinking, wow, someday I'm going to be 1:08:45.280 --> 1:08:47.320 a photographer, but I want to wait till I've got 1:08:47.320 --> 1:08:50.120 the seven thousand dollar camera and I'm gonna wait until 1:08:50.280 --> 1:08:52.040 this thing and that thing, No, you just gotta get 1:08:52.040 --> 1:08:55.800 out there with what you have, do it, fine tune 1:08:55.800 --> 1:08:58.720 your craft and then share it. And if you do 1:08:58.760 --> 1:09:00.599 that enough and you continue to go oh and continue 1:09:00.600 --> 1:09:03.320 to get better. And by sharing that, I mean like 1:09:03.320 --> 1:09:05.719 whether it be through social media or networking in person, 1:09:05.760 --> 1:09:09.840 you ustablished relationships connections. If you do all those things, 1:09:09.840 --> 1:09:12.400 and if you get better at all those things, opportunities 1:09:12.439 --> 1:09:14.920 come about. So for me with my website, I just 1:09:14.960 --> 1:09:17.360 started writing every Like when I decided I was going 1:09:17.360 --> 1:09:20.799 to do weird Hunt, I started the website and then 1:09:20.880 --> 1:09:23.559 every single day, without fail, I was working on every 1:09:23.600 --> 1:09:25.599 single day, like every day of the week. I had 1:09:25.600 --> 1:09:28.800 a new article. Weekends, I'd stay up, you know, late 1:09:28.840 --> 1:09:30.880 at night working on it. I worked before the day job, 1:09:30.920 --> 1:09:32.800 I work on it after the day job. And I 1:09:32.880 --> 1:09:34.800 just was like, I'm going to keep doing it. And 1:09:34.840 --> 1:09:37.600 then I shared on forums. I've connected with everybody I 1:09:37.680 --> 1:09:42.200 possibly on Facebook and Twitter and eventually Instagram. No, any 1:09:42.240 --> 1:09:44.719 one of these single one things like was the reason 1:09:44.800 --> 1:09:47.759 why I was able to do what I'm doing now. 1:09:47.960 --> 1:09:52.439 But the relentless um chipping away on all those different 1:09:52.439 --> 1:09:53.920 things I think led to it. So those are the 1:09:53.920 --> 1:09:56.120 three things that I recommend to most people at very 1:09:56.160 --> 1:10:00.200 high level. It's not like some secret that I'm sharing UM, 1:10:00.240 --> 1:10:03.840 but that's that's what's worked for me. UM. And then 1:10:03.880 --> 1:10:05.400 one other piece of advice, I guess when it comes 1:10:05.400 --> 1:10:11.759 to content his um, fine, you can't be a generalist 1:10:11.760 --> 1:10:14.639 when you're starting out, is my my thought. So if 1:10:14.680 --> 1:10:16.880 you want to be ah, if you want to start 1:10:16.880 --> 1:10:19.800 a podcast or a website. These days, if you start 1:10:19.800 --> 1:10:23.559 a general hunting podcast, it's hard to stand out because 1:10:24.160 --> 1:10:28.120 you can't necessarily create content that's perfect for the audience 1:10:28.200 --> 1:10:29.439 if you're just doing a little bit of this, a 1:10:29.479 --> 1:10:33.519 little with that. What I my The way I thought 1:10:33.520 --> 1:10:35.599 about things earlier was I want to be very niche 1:10:35.680 --> 1:10:37.880 because if I was very niche, I could say, Okay, 1:10:37.920 --> 1:10:40.439 this is my audience. This is a very tight slice 1:10:40.439 --> 1:10:43.960 of people that are my audience. So it was super serious, passionate, 1:10:44.479 --> 1:10:47.280 relatively young people. And if I know who that audience is, 1:10:47.320 --> 1:10:49.760 If I'm very clear on who that audience is, it 1:10:49.840 --> 1:10:52.240 makes um my work as a content creator very easy 1:10:52.240 --> 1:10:54.719 because I know exactly what's going to resonate with that audience. 1:10:55.400 --> 1:10:57.640 So then because of that, I'm putting out stuff that 1:10:57.760 --> 1:11:00.000 was oh man, that's exactly what I've always wanted to see. 1:11:00.040 --> 1:11:02.519 Because I'm creating content for like one guy or girl 1:11:03.280 --> 1:11:06.120 first is trying to create everything for everybody. So once 1:11:06.120 --> 1:11:08.240 you can do that then you have an ability to 1:11:08.240 --> 1:11:11.160 connect grow from there. And so since I've been able 1:11:11.200 --> 1:11:12.760 to grow from there, now I can expand and do 1:11:12.840 --> 1:11:16.559 different things and generalize a touch. But I think that 1:11:16.560 --> 1:11:20.200 that is a helpful UM process to go through early on. 1:11:20.360 --> 1:11:22.880 That's interesting, man, that that that part of the other 1:11:22.880 --> 1:11:26.400 ship is all pretty obvious. But that's an interesting perspective 1:11:26.439 --> 1:11:28.280 on it. I don't know that I entirely agree with it, 1:11:28.360 --> 1:11:30.840 but but I like it fair enough. What did you 1:11:30.880 --> 1:11:33.680 first start writing about then? I mean, obviously it was 1:11:33.680 --> 1:11:36.160 white tails, but when you were saying I'm trying to 1:11:36.160 --> 1:11:39.960 connect specifically with a small group of people, what was 1:11:40.000 --> 1:11:42.320 the So, Yeah, when I started the website, I was 1:11:42.360 --> 1:11:45.640 like twenty one, and you know, I was you know, 1:11:46.120 --> 1:11:48.439 at that point, I was just switching to like trying 1:11:48.479 --> 1:11:51.559 to target mature bucks and stuff. So I was writing 1:11:51.600 --> 1:11:54.439 about my own experience. At that point, I was writing 1:11:54.479 --> 1:11:58.479 about things I read. I was writing about UM. I 1:11:58.479 --> 1:12:00.720 was trying to interview different people, like people that were 1:12:00.800 --> 1:12:02.479 established new stuff. I was trying to get them on 1:12:02.479 --> 1:12:04.240 the phone and pick their brains and share some of 1:12:04.240 --> 1:12:07.280 those experiences. I was doing gear reviews, just anything. I mean, 1:12:08.160 --> 1:12:10.040 like we were talking about earlier, I'm I was doing 1:12:10.080 --> 1:12:13.240 something white tail related every day almost. Um, so it's 1:12:13.439 --> 1:12:16.840 the niche was white tail this sorry, let me let 1:12:16.840 --> 1:12:19.240 me clarify. So, yes, the niche was white tail, and 1:12:19.280 --> 1:12:21.439 it was the three sixty five days a year white 1:12:21.439 --> 1:12:24.400 tail guy. And then again it was everything was with 1:12:24.600 --> 1:12:27.200 a little bit of an angle towards that younger generation, 1:12:27.600 --> 1:12:31.080 So the things that my generation was interested in, and 1:12:31.120 --> 1:12:33.599 then also the way I was communicating those things. So 1:12:34.240 --> 1:12:38.080 I was communicating with YouTube and Facebook and Twitter and 1:12:38.320 --> 1:12:40.320 you know, whatever it might be at the time. And 1:12:40.360 --> 1:12:43.200 then also different technologies and stuff. We talked a lot 1:12:43.240 --> 1:12:46.040 about so apps to help out with deer hunting or 1:12:46.080 --> 1:12:48.920 you know, trail cameras or different things related to that. 1:12:48.960 --> 1:12:52.360 I mean, originally that weird hunt idea in the very 1:12:52.400 --> 1:12:56.800 beginning was like the intersection of technology with hunting and 1:12:56.840 --> 1:12:59.320 all that. It's it's kind of changed from there, but 1:12:59.400 --> 1:13:03.439 early on are the things I was tackling. So what's 1:13:03.439 --> 1:13:06.439 the what's the future being a white tail guy? The 1:13:06.439 --> 1:13:08.519 future of being let me ask you this, what are 1:13:08.520 --> 1:13:12.640 the like, uh, when you look at deer hunting, um, 1:13:12.840 --> 1:13:16.680 white tail deer hunting, what's like? What's the what do 1:13:16.760 --> 1:13:18.360 what do you when you look into a crystal ball, 1:13:18.400 --> 1:13:23.080 what do you see for just the average whatever, like 1:13:23.160 --> 1:13:26.280 just some new number in the future, do you imagine 1:13:26.400 --> 1:13:30.200 like what kind of you know, be recognizable? Do you 1:13:30.200 --> 1:13:33.160 think it's gonna be like seismic changes? When I think 1:13:33.160 --> 1:13:35.200 about stuff, I'm like, I can't. I just really hired 1:13:35.200 --> 1:13:37.040 for me to picture of the future right now with 1:13:37.120 --> 1:13:40.080 the prospects of stuff like c w D. So I 1:13:40.120 --> 1:13:42.280 think the last decade or so, we've kind of been 1:13:42.320 --> 1:13:44.360 like the glory days of of white tail hunting in 1:13:44.360 --> 1:13:47.679 a lot of places. Um, you know, herds have grown 1:13:47.680 --> 1:13:51.479 tremendously since the sixties and seventies, most places, average age 1:13:51.479 --> 1:13:54.439 of bucks has been rising tremendously as more and more 1:13:54.439 --> 1:13:57.840 people are letting young bucks grow, They're paying attention to 1:13:57.880 --> 1:14:00.519 things like her dynamics, they're trying to improve avatat or 1:14:00.960 --> 1:14:03.479 you know, think about conservation and kind of what they're doing. 1:14:03.479 --> 1:14:06.000 So all those things have been happening for for a while. 1:14:06.479 --> 1:14:08.720 So we're in a generally good place, like reaping the 1:14:08.720 --> 1:14:12.280 benefits of those activities, generally reaping the benefits of those activities. 1:14:12.280 --> 1:14:15.120 So I think all those things most people would recognize 1:14:15.120 --> 1:14:19.519 as a positive trend, I think, um But to your point, 1:14:19.760 --> 1:14:22.519 there are concerning things like c w D, which is 1:14:22.600 --> 1:14:25.240 one of those deals that is such a long term issue, 1:14:25.280 --> 1:14:27.400 like the impacts in the short term for most people 1:14:27.479 --> 1:14:30.519 right now, it's beyond like what they're looking at. When 1:14:30.520 --> 1:14:33.040 we say c r D, we're talking about chronic wasting 1:14:33.240 --> 1:14:37.480 chronic wasting disease. And we did a a very exhaustive 1:14:37.720 --> 1:14:40.639 conversation with a c w D expert a few podcasts ago, 1:14:40.680 --> 1:14:42.040 so you can go find that if you want to 1:14:42.040 --> 1:14:43.320 catch up and what we're talk about. I don't want 1:14:43.320 --> 1:14:44.680 to recap it all now. But yeah, so like a 1:14:44.760 --> 1:14:48.080 do Z wildlife disease issue. So those the issues over that, 1:14:48.160 --> 1:14:50.040 and why I think a lot of people struggle with 1:14:50.160 --> 1:14:52.040 like looking at head on and why to do something 1:14:52.040 --> 1:14:55.600 about it, is because it doesn't necessarily have like population 1:14:55.720 --> 1:14:58.400 level impacts right now that you can see and feel, 1:14:58.960 --> 1:15:02.760 um verse is something like h D, which is a 1:15:02.840 --> 1:15:06.439 disease of virus. Excuse me that in one year you 1:15:06.439 --> 1:15:09.200 can lose your deer herd and that's something like holy crap, 1:15:09.200 --> 1:15:11.840 all right, that you can feel that and like wrap 1:15:11.880 --> 1:15:13.840 your head around that. But the c w D you 1:15:13.920 --> 1:15:16.360 might not necessarily see and feel that. But as I 1:15:16.400 --> 1:15:19.600 understand it, you know, over the course of decades, population 1:15:19.680 --> 1:15:22.880 level impacts do start showing up. So in Wyoming, in Colorado, 1:15:22.920 --> 1:15:25.519 where CWD has been around for a long time, they 1:15:25.520 --> 1:15:28.439 are seeing that a significant proportion of bucks or deer 1:15:28.479 --> 1:15:30.800 and the herd are dying every year from CW. So 1:15:30.840 --> 1:15:33.519 I think it's quite possible that fifty years from now 1:15:33.720 --> 1:15:35.360 we will be seeing that in a lot of states. 1:15:35.439 --> 1:15:37.760 What I when I asked that question that that's I 1:15:37.840 --> 1:15:39.960 like your perspective on it. But when I asked that question, 1:15:39.960 --> 1:15:42.960 when I look at it, what I'm seeing is the 1:15:43.040 --> 1:15:51.600 way the relationship people have with deer um, the more social, 1:15:53.439 --> 1:15:58.280 kind of spiritual relationship that people have with deer, would 1:15:58.439 --> 1:16:01.800 change if it winds up that we begin to look 1:16:01.840 --> 1:16:06.040 at deer as disease vectors. That would be a scary 1:16:06.040 --> 1:16:08.760 situation happen if it were to happen, like a thing 1:16:08.800 --> 1:16:11.479 that I really the thing that I'm most afraid of, 1:16:11.520 --> 1:16:15.320 I'm not most afraid of of, Like like a disease 1:16:15.360 --> 1:16:17.040 like e h. D. Let's say it's gonna come carry 1:16:17.080 --> 1:16:19.880 away sixty or se dear. I mean that happens all 1:16:19.920 --> 1:16:23.320 the time. You recover from it like it's a it's 1:16:23.320 --> 1:16:26.679 a pretty like a natural part of our system that happens. 1:16:26.720 --> 1:16:30.439 It's like you get these like too many deer disease 1:16:30.479 --> 1:16:33.760 comes in White's amount, They recover, You get back up 1:16:33.800 --> 1:16:36.720 and run. In a few years, things go on with 1:16:36.840 --> 1:16:40.080 chronic wasting wasting disease. The thing I worry about and 1:16:40.160 --> 1:16:43.040 hasn't thankfully it hasn't happened yet, would be that you'd 1:16:43.040 --> 1:16:47.439 have some cases where there's irrefutable proof that a person 1:16:47.960 --> 1:16:50.120 that would that would make the jump and then a 1:16:50.200 --> 1:16:54.160 person would contract a fatal disease from consuming dear meat. 1:16:54.680 --> 1:16:59.800 Like just how that would shift public perceptions of the 1:17:00.160 --> 1:17:02.640 value of deer. And if there's a thing that you 1:17:02.680 --> 1:17:06.320 can learn if you look at global it's just like 1:17:06.360 --> 1:17:11.599 global politics, global wildlife issues. Wildlife thrives in places where 1:17:11.640 --> 1:17:14.320 it has a cultural value. If it does not have 1:17:14.439 --> 1:17:18.760 cultural value, it does not thrive. Um. The reason we 1:17:18.880 --> 1:17:22.800 have wildlife in America and the abundance we do is 1:17:22.800 --> 1:17:26.000 because we've a fixed a tremendous amount of cultural value. 1:17:26.000 --> 1:17:28.880 It is not here by mistake and as and if 1:17:29.080 --> 1:17:34.040 it becomes that that we look at dear with suspicion 1:17:35.000 --> 1:17:38.439 Um I think it's I think it could really have 1:17:38.640 --> 1:17:41.599 like a really alter things. And and like you being 1:17:41.600 --> 1:17:43.360 a white tail guy and you talk about like pursuing 1:17:43.520 --> 1:17:47.439 white tail guys and that's your audience. That's smart because 1:17:48.400 --> 1:17:51.519 of big game hunters hunt white tails. So we're talking 1:17:51.520 --> 1:17:55.479 about a major thing here, you know. Um, So that's 1:17:55.520 --> 1:17:59.080 something that worries me a little bit for sure. Great. 1:17:59.160 --> 1:18:03.479 I hope that in the interim, in the next forty years, 1:18:03.479 --> 1:18:06.840 whatever it might be, or whatever the timelines, I hope 1:18:07.000 --> 1:18:10.200 we find some types of solutions because as a a 1:18:10.280 --> 1:18:13.560 grim situation to imagine if you're worried about if you 1:18:13.560 --> 1:18:16.760 can't eat deer anymore, um, because not only does that 1:18:16.840 --> 1:18:22.160 impact us as hunters, but then also if if if 1:18:22.160 --> 1:18:25.200 you want to continue hunting. So let's say, okay, CWD 1:18:25.479 --> 1:18:29.240 is prevalent and we've all decided that there's possibilities of 1:18:29.280 --> 1:18:31.599 a transferring humans. So people aren't going to eat deer anymore, 1:18:32.160 --> 1:18:35.360 but hunters continue hunting them from the outside looking in. 1:18:35.439 --> 1:18:39.639 Now Now one of the most understandable and relatable elements 1:18:39.680 --> 1:18:42.760 of of why people hunt being looked at from the 1:18:42.760 --> 1:18:45.240 outside all of a sudden, that's gone. So now non 1:18:45.280 --> 1:18:47.040 hunters look at what we're doing and saying, so you're 1:18:47.040 --> 1:18:49.240 just gonna kill these deer and you're gonna toss it out. 1:18:49.479 --> 1:18:51.120 That would even waste my time with it, same reason 1:18:51.120 --> 1:18:53.280 I don't waste my time shooting shiploads of carpet stuff. 1:18:53.600 --> 1:18:56.200 It's like it just would cease to be of any 1:18:57.400 --> 1:18:59.760 hunt other stuff. But I think, yeah, I think you'd 1:18:59.800 --> 1:19:03.439 see it would be It would be both an issue 1:19:03.439 --> 1:19:04.760 of what we're able to do and it's like a 1:19:04.800 --> 1:19:10.920 credibility issue to the outside world. It became another conversation 1:19:10.960 --> 1:19:14.840 that we had UM with someone that I know UM 1:19:14.880 --> 1:19:19.640 in our area. There the biggest, not their one and 1:19:19.680 --> 1:19:22.960 only concerned with, their biggest interest in hunting deer is 1:19:23.200 --> 1:19:26.480 the antlers. I didn't have the same concern about CWD 1:19:26.479 --> 1:19:29.599 that I didn't. Really that's really upsetting to me because 1:19:29.600 --> 1:19:31.880 of that. With some of it's the public perception, but 1:19:31.920 --> 1:19:34.080 some of it's just it's a personal thing. I'm just like, 1:19:34.120 --> 1:19:37.080 what do you mean? But what they don't realize is 1:19:37.120 --> 1:19:40.840 when they're looking at when they say that all they 1:19:40.840 --> 1:19:43.639 care about is antlers, what they're looking at is they're 1:19:43.640 --> 1:19:45.920 not really thinking about where that value came from. They 1:19:45.920 --> 1:19:49.439 didn't create that value. They inherited that value when they 1:19:49.479 --> 1:19:52.280 look at antlers is because those antlers represent something and 1:19:52.400 --> 1:19:56.320 stand for something, Right, A dude, if you had a 1:19:56.400 --> 1:20:01.200 dude from Mars come down and land on Earth, he 1:20:01.200 --> 1:20:03.000 wouldn't see a buck come out and be like some 1:20:03.080 --> 1:20:06.360 of a bit, some antlers are awesome. He just wouldn't. 1:20:06.360 --> 1:20:09.080 It's like they value it because they were brought up 1:20:09.080 --> 1:20:12.200 in a social context that puts the value on that. 1:20:12.640 --> 1:20:16.600 And the bigness, like the bigness of them is alluring 1:20:16.640 --> 1:20:20.800 to you because it's a rarity, like like planes, the 1:20:21.160 --> 1:20:26.080 equestrian planes, Aboriginal bison hunters, like the Blackfeet, the crow. 1:20:26.360 --> 1:20:29.599 They really valued a white buffalo. It was an anomaly, right, 1:20:29.600 --> 1:20:30.920 it was like because you had to look at ten 1:20:31.000 --> 1:20:33.360 thousand to find one and it had an extreme value. 1:20:33.560 --> 1:20:35.519 So when people say like I just like the antlers, dude, 1:20:35.600 --> 1:20:38.479 it's like, yeah, okay, you do because of how you 1:20:38.640 --> 1:20:40.800 where you were brought up, how you were brought up, 1:20:40.800 --> 1:20:42.960 what the value system of it came in because it 1:20:43.040 --> 1:20:45.240 was a rarity, because it was an achievement to have 1:20:45.360 --> 1:20:48.880 one get to be old. Anyways, if you start to 1:20:48.960 --> 1:20:52.120 chip away at if you start to chip away at 1:20:52.160 --> 1:20:55.280 like the legacy of deer, the broader cultural meanings of 1:20:55.320 --> 1:20:58.280 dear you will see a diminishment in that interest. Like 1:20:58.400 --> 1:21:02.400 that interest is is there's a tremendous foundation there that 1:21:02.439 --> 1:21:04.120 they might not be able to articulate and they might 1:21:04.120 --> 1:21:06.120 not know the history of But it's like they didn't 1:21:06.120 --> 1:21:09.120 come out of a vacuum thinking big antlers are cool. Yeah, 1:21:10.000 --> 1:21:13.040 it's a learned it's a learned thing. Little kids don't 1:21:13.080 --> 1:21:18.519 have it, they pick it up. Um So I think 1:21:18.520 --> 1:21:21.800 that if you know, there are ways in which even 1:21:21.960 --> 1:21:25.519 that value over time, wouild just cease to be that 1:21:26.720 --> 1:21:30.360 big of a deal. This is me being my most pessimistic. Now. 1:21:30.960 --> 1:21:32.439 The other way to look at it would be that, 1:21:32.560 --> 1:21:36.120 like how ship generally kind of continues along, right, So, 1:21:37.040 --> 1:21:40.519 um yeah, if I really had to like go and 1:21:40.520 --> 1:21:42.759 put money on it, I would say, in fifty years, 1:21:43.280 --> 1:21:46.040 we're still gonna be excited about deer hunting, We're still 1:21:46.080 --> 1:21:50.080 gonna be excited about big box. But but when you 1:21:50.160 --> 1:21:53.519 sort of put on this like theoretical what could possibly happen, 1:21:53.880 --> 1:21:56.519 it winds up being a little more entertaining to to 1:21:56.520 --> 1:21:58.840 to to to think about the dark side of things, 1:21:58.840 --> 1:22:02.480 and it just does the rea lity that my maternal 1:22:03.000 --> 1:22:06.360 grandfather liked to hunt deer. My paternal grandfather liked to 1:22:06.439 --> 1:22:09.120 hunt deer. My father liked to hunt deer. I like 1:22:09.240 --> 1:22:11.840 to hunt deer. My kids already excited about hunting deer. 1:22:12.400 --> 1:22:15.080 I feel that there's like a pretty good momentum there 1:22:15.120 --> 1:22:19.240 that that my kids, kids kids will be all fired 1:22:19.280 --> 1:22:22.000 up about deer hunting. So I mean to sound like 1:22:22.040 --> 1:22:24.080 a big old nas there. You know, I think as 1:22:24.160 --> 1:22:27.120 long as we as hunters do our part and making 1:22:27.120 --> 1:22:29.280 sure that's going to be possible in the future, make 1:22:29.320 --> 1:22:32.280 sure there's places to do it in healthy wildlife to 1:22:32.280 --> 1:22:36.440 to pursue. I agree, it's probably what's gonna happen. America 1:22:36.600 --> 1:22:39.439 will probably continue to be a really great country for 1:22:39.479 --> 1:22:41.800 a long time. But there's some shing I got my 1:22:41.840 --> 1:22:46.120 eye out for. Yeah, that's true. There's a couple of 1:22:46.120 --> 1:22:53.160 things I'm watching so yeah, um, yunny thing you want 1:22:53.160 --> 1:22:55.120 to add in wedge in there and the end. Man, 1:22:55.120 --> 1:22:58.439 I got a couple things I wanted to talk or 1:22:58.560 --> 1:23:01.920 ask Mark about or comment on. Um. I feel like 1:23:01.920 --> 1:23:05.040 with the antlers and the inches, it's sort of like this, 1:23:05.320 --> 1:23:06.800 there's a there's a it's a little bit of a 1:23:06.840 --> 1:23:10.679 negative by product right of that scoring system, that it's 1:23:10.680 --> 1:23:15.479 allowed some maybe like uber competitive people to sort of 1:23:15.520 --> 1:23:19.360 make hunting into a contest. And I really don't like that. 1:23:19.520 --> 1:23:23.760 The golf, the golf, the golf if occasion heart set word, 1:23:23.960 --> 1:23:29.400 the galification of hunting. Yeah, where it's like it's just 1:23:29.439 --> 1:23:33.400 not it's just like this personal experience journey, Like you 1:23:33.439 --> 1:23:35.479 were explaining good the other day, we're hunting teas just 1:23:35.520 --> 1:23:38.760 sort of this lifelong thing that you're involved in, you know. 1:23:39.600 --> 1:23:42.559 And you know I've mentioned this before. I have friends 1:23:42.560 --> 1:23:46.840 have quit scoring animals because they realized how much it 1:23:46.960 --> 1:23:49.840 affected the way they felt about it, Like they would 1:23:49.840 --> 1:23:52.320 harvest this animal. It was a great trip, it was 1:23:52.360 --> 1:23:54.599 everything was awesome about it, and they got home, put 1:23:54.640 --> 1:23:58.679 the tape on it, and it changed it somehow. And 1:23:59.400 --> 1:24:02.040 that's like, that's like it's a it's a bad byproduct, 1:24:02.200 --> 1:24:05.440 you know, Like it started with I think such good intentions, 1:24:05.520 --> 1:24:06.880 you know, And I just want to be clear. I 1:24:06.920 --> 1:24:10.200 spent again to like the martian or the outsider looking 1:24:10.280 --> 1:24:14.240 in when we talk abo, Yeah, when we talk about 1:24:14.320 --> 1:24:17.080 like seeing the hundred deer, yes, we're using that as 1:24:17.120 --> 1:24:19.320 in another efficient way to talk about what we know 1:24:19.560 --> 1:24:25.360 is a great big buck um, but it's um. It's 1:24:25.400 --> 1:24:28.320 again because it is that rarity and anomaly. It's like 1:24:28.400 --> 1:24:31.560 going to see a you know, five hundred foot waterfall 1:24:31.680 --> 1:24:43.160 somewhere or seeing like the triple rainbow. Yeah. I agree 1:24:43.200 --> 1:24:46.400 with you. Yeah, but it's just like it's not a contest, 1:24:46.479 --> 1:24:49.240 and I feel like, yeah, we need to just you know, 1:24:49.320 --> 1:24:54.439 monitor ourselves on that. And uh, yeah, I always remember 1:24:54.479 --> 1:24:56.240 that there's more to that. But my question to you, Mark, 1:24:56.360 --> 1:24:59.439 was you talked a lot about um, like picking your 1:24:59.479 --> 1:25:03.639 times to not hunting certain properties a lot. We talked 1:25:03.640 --> 1:25:06.160 about this the other day. Yeah, and you mentioned I 1:25:06.160 --> 1:25:08.240 think in the last hour as well. Right, Like you're 1:25:08.280 --> 1:25:10.679 just like real selective, you know about when you're gonna 1:25:10.720 --> 1:25:12.439 go hunt this bucket. It might only be three or 1:25:12.479 --> 1:25:15.240 four days in a season, right, So does that limit 1:25:15.320 --> 1:25:17.800 you're hunting to the point where because I'm kind of 1:25:17.800 --> 1:25:20.599 like listening, I'm like, man, I want to get out 1:25:20.600 --> 1:25:23.880 and hunt more. Or do you have other properties where 1:25:23.880 --> 1:25:26.599 you're still getting You're like, I'm not lacking hunting time 1:25:26.680 --> 1:25:28.960 because I'm sitting there waiting for the time to strike. 1:25:29.280 --> 1:25:31.080 So the way I do kind of real quick. So 1:25:31.080 --> 1:25:33.280 I'm feeling awful about something. You know, people used to 1:25:33.320 --> 1:25:36.120 pay to see beard ladies and old circus. It was 1:25:36.120 --> 1:25:37.920 a joke. I was making a joke about how people 1:25:38.000 --> 1:25:40.280 used to pay money in the old Barnum and Bailey days, 1:25:40.320 --> 1:25:43.160 like you pay money to go see a bearded lady. Oh, 1:25:43.320 --> 1:25:44.760 I didn't know that I had heard I had heard 1:25:44.800 --> 1:25:47.559 of that. I have not. It was like a part 1:25:47.640 --> 1:25:53.599 of the circus anyways, to your question, because I thought 1:25:53.600 --> 1:25:56.320 that that could potentially feel a little lot of feeling 1:25:56.360 --> 1:25:59.320 because I was making an old circus joke. It just 1:26:00.000 --> 1:26:05.440 of the landed plate, right. But so to Yanni's question, Um, 1:26:05.520 --> 1:26:07.760 so yes, it would be the latter. So I have 1:26:07.960 --> 1:26:09.519 I tried to have as many different places as I 1:26:09.520 --> 1:26:11.880 can hunt as possible, so I can spread that hunting 1:26:11.880 --> 1:26:15.519 pressure across a number of different areas. So in this 1:26:15.600 --> 1:26:18.519 case with this buck, I know there's certain times of 1:26:18.520 --> 1:26:22.400 the year, based on my analysis over the years, that 1:26:22.439 --> 1:26:28.000 he's more vulnerable. So I'll be looking for certain factors 1:26:28.040 --> 1:26:33.400 such as temperature and wind direction, etcetera, etcetera. If those 1:26:33.439 --> 1:26:36.320 things look right the first couple of days of the season, 1:26:36.800 --> 1:26:39.040 that's one of my best opportunities. First shot him. So 1:26:39.040 --> 1:26:40.519 I'm hunt the first day or two this season. If 1:26:40.520 --> 1:26:42.840 the conditions are right after that, I'm going to stay 1:26:42.840 --> 1:26:45.519 out because he just does not moved in daylight on 1:26:45.560 --> 1:26:49.000 the property. I can hunt from like from the first 1:26:49.040 --> 1:26:54.000 week of October through around like the um for whatever reason, 1:26:54.120 --> 1:26:56.439 he's a little more careful during that time and lots 1:26:56.479 --> 1:26:58.240 of times. What people have found in what I've seen too, 1:26:58.240 --> 1:27:02.920 is that deer have relatively consistent annual patterns, so where 1:27:02.960 --> 1:27:04.680 you can see that a buck is going to be 1:27:04.800 --> 1:27:07.559 using a certain area, or he becomes more daylight active 1:27:07.560 --> 1:27:11.120 in a certain area year after year around the same 1:27:11.200 --> 1:27:16.680 general time frame. So this buck around, he all of 1:27:16.720 --> 1:27:20.200 a sudden a light switch for him in particular switches. 1:27:20.240 --> 1:27:21.719 So I had a shot at him on the twenty 1:27:21.720 --> 1:27:24.439 four and two fifteen, and I had a shot him 1:27:24.439 --> 1:27:27.880 on the twenty two the exact same place, and I 1:27:27.920 --> 1:27:30.240 started picking more trail camera pictures in the exact same 1:27:30.280 --> 1:27:32.680 place at that same time. From So for that like 1:27:32.720 --> 1:27:34.920 two and a half week period, I'll have I'll be 1:27:34.960 --> 1:27:37.599 hunting some public land, I'll be hunting in Ohio, I'll 1:27:37.600 --> 1:27:41.120 be hunting my family's little property up in northern Michigan. 1:27:41.600 --> 1:27:43.360 So yeah, I think in a perfect world you'd like 1:27:43.400 --> 1:27:46.599 to have permission or public access to keep hunting a lot, 1:27:47.080 --> 1:27:50.600 But just any one particular place is going to have 1:27:50.640 --> 1:27:53.960 a smaller number of hunts. Um. It's just picking, picking 1:27:54.000 --> 1:27:57.000 the right times, and then you know, trying to have 1:27:57.040 --> 1:28:00.920 a concise kind of surgical rich when you go on there. 1:28:01.120 --> 1:28:04.200 But you're getting enough hunting hunting days in to keep 1:28:04.200 --> 1:28:06.320 yourself happy, because you know you're gonna apply a certain 1:28:06.360 --> 1:28:08.760 amount of pressure, so you need places to apply that 1:28:09.520 --> 1:28:11.200 apply that pressure. So you just in that case, you 1:28:11.240 --> 1:28:12.479 have to be willing to knock on a lot of 1:28:12.479 --> 1:28:15.479 doors or figure out how to hunt public land, or 1:28:15.479 --> 1:28:18.439 if you've got the funds to access land in some 1:28:18.520 --> 1:28:20.880 other way, do that. Um. But yeah, we get that 1:28:20.960 --> 1:28:22.839 question a lot. I want to hunt more. I wouldn't 1:28:22.840 --> 1:28:24.600 want to hunt this way, and you don't need to 1:28:24.640 --> 1:28:27.599 hunt that way all. I mean, that's just if you're 1:28:27.800 --> 1:28:30.400 hunting in a situation like I am, where it's heavily pressured, 1:28:30.600 --> 1:28:33.439 and if you're targeting the mature bucks, those types of 1:28:33.479 --> 1:28:36.760 tactics are most often the best way to go about it. 1:28:36.840 --> 1:28:38.639 But if you're just trying to you know, shoot any 1:28:38.680 --> 1:28:40.559 deer to fill a freezer, go ahead and hunt your 1:28:40.560 --> 1:28:43.880 heart out, um, because you can. You can shoot those 1:28:43.920 --> 1:28:47.480 and and year link bocks doing that kind of thing. Um, 1:28:47.560 --> 1:28:49.240 I want to hit my concluders because it's a good 1:28:49.240 --> 1:28:51.280 place to wedge them in one. When you're talking about 1:28:51.280 --> 1:28:53.759 the light switches and that buck starts coming out on October, 1:28:55.600 --> 1:28:58.240 it's that's kind of literal because that has ship has 1:28:58.280 --> 1:29:00.479 a lot to do with like the photo period, length 1:29:00.479 --> 1:29:04.599 of day. Um. Yeah, yeah, I'm not like, I don't 1:29:04.600 --> 1:29:06.479 need to present it as I'm telling you something you 1:29:06.479 --> 1:29:09.519 don't know, but I'm it's just interesting if people are 1:29:09.640 --> 1:29:12.120 just beginning to think about animals in a detailed way. 1:29:12.160 --> 1:29:15.080 It's so much of animal activity is really triggered by 1:29:15.120 --> 1:29:19.120 if you see consistency, like to the calendar day consistency 1:29:19.160 --> 1:29:22.839 with animals, What's what you're seeing is effects of changing 1:29:22.920 --> 1:29:27.320 day length, which triggers many things. Yeah, change like photo 1:29:27.360 --> 1:29:31.639 periods create windows of time, and then within those windows 1:29:31.640 --> 1:29:36.960 of time, there are many other factors that contribute. Um. 1:29:37.000 --> 1:29:39.360 So that's a nice thing to keep your eye on 1:29:39.400 --> 1:29:40.920 when you start to when you really want to get 1:29:40.960 --> 1:29:43.640 detailed about learning about wildlife. But the thing and you 1:29:43.760 --> 1:29:45.080 kind of touched in this a minute ago, but it 1:29:45.120 --> 1:29:46.680 struck me the r day as we're having this like 1:29:46.760 --> 1:29:49.679 age old argument where someone would be like, oh man, 1:29:49.760 --> 1:29:51.639 you're like the best time to hunt is when you can, 1:29:52.960 --> 1:29:54.840 And I was presenting that because I was talking about 1:29:54.880 --> 1:29:58.280 we're talking about people who don't who think that moon 1:29:58.479 --> 1:30:01.680 phase affects dear movements and they won't hunt if the 1:30:01.680 --> 1:30:07.200 moon's not right, And we were discussing a counter argument 1:30:07.240 --> 1:30:08.880 would be like, if you can be out in the woods, 1:30:08.920 --> 1:30:11.120 be out in the woods. And Mark was like, well, no, 1:30:12.080 --> 1:30:16.559 not really, and just reiterate again why why maybe not 1:30:16.720 --> 1:30:17.960 when you can be out in the woods, be out 1:30:18.000 --> 1:30:21.240 in the woods. So again, if you're trying to kill 1:30:21.240 --> 1:30:25.840 an old buck, these bucks are very savvy to human intrusion, 1:30:25.920 --> 1:30:29.280 So every time you go into a property, you increase 1:30:29.400 --> 1:30:31.960 the odds of that buck learning about your presence. So 1:30:32.000 --> 1:30:34.760 you're educating that buck and or the larger deer herd 1:30:34.760 --> 1:30:36.479 every time you step foot in there, whether it's to 1:30:37.320 --> 1:30:39.400 tinker with a tree stand or move a trail camera 1:30:39.520 --> 1:30:41.840 or to hunt. Every time you go in there, you 1:30:41.840 --> 1:30:47.000 are educating deer. So you're leaving sen creating visual disturbance etcetera, etcetera. 1:30:47.439 --> 1:30:50.840 So your odds for success in the future decrease some 1:30:51.000 --> 1:30:54.000 percentage points every time you go in there. So my 1:30:54.120 --> 1:30:56.880 thought processes, if I'm trying to kill the mature buck, 1:30:57.240 --> 1:31:00.280 I want the odds of reward to be as high 1:31:00.320 --> 1:31:02.439 as possible, because I know that there's gonna be a 1:31:02.680 --> 1:31:04.960 some level of risk every time, So I want to 1:31:04.960 --> 1:31:08.719 find the lowest risk and the highest reward days. Strike 1:31:08.800 --> 1:31:11.960 on those days, minimize the number of intrusions so that 1:31:12.000 --> 1:31:14.880 I don't educate more dear because you can educate that buck, 1:31:15.160 --> 1:31:17.920 or if you educate the dough herd, and you know, 1:31:18.000 --> 1:31:20.920 let's say in a situation where a mature dough or 1:31:20.960 --> 1:31:23.360 a handful mature dough starts picking up on the fact 1:31:23.400 --> 1:31:26.120 that I'm rolling into this little corner of the property 1:31:26.200 --> 1:31:28.839 every couple of days, then she doesn't come around anymore, 1:31:29.040 --> 1:31:30.479 or when she comes in, she looks right at the 1:31:30.479 --> 1:31:33.160 tree stand. If that happens, and the buck happened, buck 1:31:33.160 --> 1:31:35.360 I'm after happening to be happens to be a hundred 1:31:35.439 --> 1:31:39.200 yards behind him, sees her spook, or maybe that buck 1:31:39.240 --> 1:31:41.720 would have followed her in towards a tree stand. On 1:31:41.760 --> 1:31:44.640 November one, but because now those doughs know not to 1:31:44.680 --> 1:31:46.800 move in there during daylight, Now he won't follow her 1:31:46.800 --> 1:31:49.280 in there. I always need to be thinking about the 1:31:49.320 --> 1:31:53.920 impacts of hunting pressure, human intrusion, and then yeah, I mean, 1:31:54.000 --> 1:31:56.599 it's just it's an odds thing. I'm constantly the scale 1:31:56.640 --> 1:31:58.280 every single hunt I go into, I just have these 1:31:58.280 --> 1:32:00.240 two hands. I like, Okay, what are the things in 1:32:00.280 --> 1:32:02.200 favor of reward? So what do I have going for me? 1:32:02.200 --> 1:32:04.560 Maybe it's the time of year, Maybe it's the conditions, 1:32:04.720 --> 1:32:06.839 Maybe it's an up. Maybe I saw him in daylight 1:32:06.840 --> 1:32:09.599 recently moving. Maybe I know that a certain food source 1:32:09.680 --> 1:32:12.760 is going to be particularly palatable starting now. Um, so 1:32:12.800 --> 1:32:14.439 those are all the things will tell me how high 1:32:14.520 --> 1:32:16.640 or low that chance of reward will be. And then 1:32:16.640 --> 1:32:19.759 I look at the chances of risk. So what things 1:32:19.880 --> 1:32:23.040 could lead to me being you know, spotted, or what 1:32:23.240 --> 1:32:25.559 could lead to me blow on my cover? So maybe 1:32:25.560 --> 1:32:27.519 it's wind, Maybe it's how many times I've been in there. 1:32:27.520 --> 1:32:30.640 Maybe it's the time of year. Maybe it's you know, 1:32:30.840 --> 1:32:33.320 how the neighbors are are hunting or doing something like that. 1:32:33.360 --> 1:32:36.160 So all those things factor into every single hunt. Um 1:32:36.240 --> 1:32:39.599 for me, at least, you know, you talked about white tail. 1:32:39.640 --> 1:32:43.000 Guys will invent moves that kind of reminiscent of professional 1:32:43.040 --> 1:32:45.240 wrestling moves like you talked about, like the bumping dump 1:32:45.360 --> 1:32:47.360 bumping dump. I would if I was you, I would 1:32:47.360 --> 1:32:50.479 think of a move called the canyon. So what's then? 1:32:50.800 --> 1:32:54.599 It would be that you sneak onto all the neighboring 1:32:54.640 --> 1:32:58.599 properties after dark and just make life hell for those deer, 1:32:59.320 --> 1:33:04.920 thinking that they will naturally congregate on thee where you 1:33:04.960 --> 1:33:07.320 have permission. What were we just talking about that whole 1:33:07.360 --> 1:33:11.800 deal crossing the line. So every night you're just going 1:33:11.840 --> 1:33:15.519 through core feeding and betting areas just like raising Holy hell, 1:33:15.800 --> 1:33:19.640 now here's okay. This is that made me that I'm 1:33:19.720 --> 1:33:21.880 joking because Matt, that's what Mark does and it is 1:33:21.920 --> 1:33:29.599 called the Kend. Definitely not what to do. But one 1:33:29.640 --> 1:33:34.120 thing I do I do do um is I kind 1:33:34.120 --> 1:33:37.800 of call it like my guns season sanctuary strategy. So 1:33:38.280 --> 1:33:40.120 I think about, like if there's a property that I 1:33:40.200 --> 1:33:42.240 have sould access to, So again this if we keep 1:33:42.240 --> 1:33:44.040 referring to this ninety acres, this is like the one 1:33:44.040 --> 1:33:47.600 place I have that nobody else hans, so I have 1:33:47.640 --> 1:33:49.720 the opportunity to do things there that otherwise you know, 1:33:49.720 --> 1:33:51.960 if other guys are coming in out, I wouldn't. So 1:33:52.040 --> 1:33:55.439 my thought process is that November, you know, in Michigan, 1:33:55.640 --> 1:33:58.280 the Orange Rimy comes out, hundreds and hundreds of thousands 1:33:58.280 --> 1:34:00.840 of deer hunters in the woods. It's a dramatic increase 1:34:00.880 --> 1:34:03.719 in hunting pressure. Most of the deer in Michigan killed 1:34:03.760 --> 1:34:05.559 during the first day of guns season, and then over 1:34:05.560 --> 1:34:07.880 the course of the next couple of weeks. I choose 1:34:07.920 --> 1:34:10.320 not to hunt this property at all during gun season 1:34:11.439 --> 1:34:15.880 because my thoughts are that I create a sanctuary if 1:34:16.000 --> 1:34:19.559 vacuuman's vacuums and deer from all the surrounding properties during 1:34:19.600 --> 1:34:21.680 that time period. So dozens and dozens of hunters are 1:34:21.680 --> 1:34:24.519 all around, they're all hunting with the guns. All these 1:34:24.560 --> 1:34:27.240 deer are looking for somewhere there's not hunters. That's what 1:34:27.280 --> 1:34:29.760 happens to be this property. All these deer flood in there. 1:34:29.760 --> 1:34:34.120 This achieves two things for me. Number One, it pulls 1:34:34.160 --> 1:34:36.320 in deer in the short term. So if there is 1:34:36.400 --> 1:34:38.720 a mature buck that I'm after, it's more likely that 1:34:38.800 --> 1:34:41.160 he'll survive through gun season than I can continue to 1:34:41.160 --> 1:34:44.240 target him the late season or under the future. And 1:34:44.280 --> 1:34:46.560 then number two, in the long term, a lot of 1:34:46.640 --> 1:34:48.599 year and a half old bucks come pouring, or two 1:34:48.640 --> 1:34:50.240 and a half year old bucks bucks I'd like to 1:34:50.280 --> 1:34:52.360 see make it to an older age class. I'd like 1:34:52.400 --> 1:34:54.880 to see a more balanced age structure. So I think 1:34:54.920 --> 1:34:57.320 I can have a disproportionate impact on the deer herd 1:34:57.360 --> 1:34:59.599 a general area, even though I'm only hunting a little 1:34:59.600 --> 1:35:02.240 piece of it. I can have a disproportionate impact because 1:35:02.240 --> 1:35:04.679 I create a safe place during the most dangerous time. 1:35:05.320 --> 1:35:09.120 More deer can make it through um And I can't 1:35:09.200 --> 1:35:12.760 quantify the impact that's had, but anecdotally, I do believe 1:35:12.760 --> 1:35:15.280 it has made it positive impact. I've seen mature bucks 1:35:15.760 --> 1:35:17.240 that I don't think would have made it if I 1:35:17.280 --> 1:35:19.639 was in there mucking around all the time. I would 1:35:19.680 --> 1:35:25.280 call that the crowdsourced canyon. Do you monitor that property 1:35:25.320 --> 1:35:28.000 then during the gun season so that the guy next door, 1:35:28.000 --> 1:35:29.880 the guy on the other side, because that small property, 1:35:29.920 --> 1:35:32.920 like that dude just walks on the edge of Yeah, 1:35:32.920 --> 1:35:37.000 it's only you're like talking about something a quarter Wisconsin. 1:35:37.040 --> 1:35:39.800 You wait till the packers are playing and then go 1:35:39.880 --> 1:35:41.880 on the neighbors legs. You know, damn sure, he's not 1:35:41.960 --> 1:35:44.360 out in the woods yeah, so so yeah, I mean 1:35:44.400 --> 1:35:47.479 there's always that risk, right, But I've tried to establish 1:35:47.479 --> 1:35:52.639 positive relationships with the neighbors, so I'm I'm trusting Number two. 1:35:52.680 --> 1:35:54.479 I do have trail cameras all over the place that 1:35:54.520 --> 1:35:56.760 are monitoring edges and stuff, and I think I try 1:35:56.800 --> 1:36:00.240 to make that known. There's posted signs all around the 1:36:00.360 --> 1:36:04.360 explicitly say that there are you know, trail cameras monitoring 1:36:04.360 --> 1:36:07.680 this property really, um so that if you if you 1:36:07.720 --> 1:36:09.160 were to come on there, you know there's a good 1:36:09.240 --> 1:36:13.599 risk that, um you're gonna get spotted and prosecuted. So 1:36:13.680 --> 1:36:15.519 I try to manage that as possible, and I'll even 1:36:15.680 --> 1:36:19.200 try to. I try to. I try to be nearby. 1:36:19.280 --> 1:36:23.719 It is often, and I go through that. You gotta 1:36:23.720 --> 1:36:25.479 make your presence. Yeah. I throw at the guy in 1:36:25.520 --> 1:36:31.560 the bar every once in a while, I just walks it. 1:36:31.760 --> 1:36:33.880 Ramy beats up a guy and announces to everyone that 1:36:33.920 --> 1:36:36.439 he has a picture of him on his property. I 1:36:36.479 --> 1:36:38.920 don't I don't disbelieve that. Because today we walked into 1:36:38.920 --> 1:36:40.960 a restaurant and Doug's afraid to sit down with his 1:36:41.000 --> 1:36:43.200 back towards the group because he's the words some of 1:36:43.280 --> 1:36:46.880 might come up and clock he's got gunfighters. Doug got 1:36:46.880 --> 1:36:50.800 any concluders, Uh yes, but one of the would we 1:36:50.840 --> 1:36:52.639 would go on for a long time, so I gotta 1:36:52.640 --> 1:36:55.600 skip that one. Skip that one well, but it is 1:36:55.640 --> 1:36:57.240 something I'd like to talk to you about in the future, 1:36:57.280 --> 1:37:01.240 and that is about how you gain access to property. 1:37:02.160 --> 1:37:03.760 That would be good. I got a lot of say 1:37:03.880 --> 1:37:06.840 a lot about yeah, yeah, and one thing, and I 1:37:06.880 --> 1:37:09.920 want to do a whole episode called permissions. Will you 1:37:09.920 --> 1:37:14.000 come back on for that? I think that's really uh, 1:37:14.240 --> 1:37:15.760 you know, and of course on my place, if you're 1:37:15.840 --> 1:37:17.760 famous guy, you get to come and hunt and fiddle 1:37:17.800 --> 1:37:24.320 around the roof that song. Traditions, Yeah, traditions do permisitions. Um, 1:37:24.720 --> 1:37:28.240 So okay. I never know how much you guys sing either. 1:37:28.360 --> 1:37:30.400 That was something I learned on this trail. We sing 1:37:30.439 --> 1:37:35.559 a lot, especially when we all know the song. So yeah, 1:37:35.560 --> 1:37:38.280 so that's something for another time, you know. I guess 1:37:38.320 --> 1:37:39.680 the other thing that I would say is that the 1:37:39.720 --> 1:37:44.920 most uh interesting part and and enjoyable part of all 1:37:44.960 --> 1:37:48.000 this for me is Um. And I know why you 1:37:48.040 --> 1:37:50.400 two guys are getting along so well in Yanni too 1:37:50.439 --> 1:37:58.240 with is that there's the passion that you have for um. 1:37:58.280 --> 1:38:02.679 What it is that you do. Uh. I mean it's 1:38:02.680 --> 1:38:07.240 almost as if you came to this um in in 1:38:07.400 --> 1:38:11.000 both of your where you know, where you're making your living, 1:38:11.080 --> 1:38:15.360 because first you are passionate about hunting in animals and 1:38:15.520 --> 1:38:17.439 conservation and all of that, and then the rest of 1:38:17.479 --> 1:38:22.439 it followed as opposed to I'm gonna I'm gonna be 1:38:22.479 --> 1:38:25.599 a TV guy or I'm gonna be a podcast guy 1:38:25.680 --> 1:38:27.360 or whatever, and so then god, what am I gonna 1:38:27.400 --> 1:38:30.920 do it about? Um? And I just don't think that 1:38:31.000 --> 1:38:36.480 you can create that authenticity without that passion and sincerity. 1:38:36.520 --> 1:38:40.559 And I think that's really um, I think that's really important. 1:38:40.600 --> 1:38:44.280 And uh, the thing that ties it all together. Yeah, 1:38:44.360 --> 1:38:47.320 I learned that in tenth grade from my teacher Robert Heaton, 1:38:48.240 --> 1:38:52.400 who said what many writing teachers say and others should say, 1:38:53.080 --> 1:38:57.439 is I'm right what you know? Yeah, well that's cool. 1:38:57.479 --> 1:39:00.920 I mean, it's it's it's it's wonderful know about Shakespeare, 1:39:02.400 --> 1:39:10.280 sospeare that excuses me from that assignment. Um, you already 1:39:10.280 --> 1:39:12.599 did my concluder. You're good on yours. Doc. I'm good 1:39:12.640 --> 1:39:15.360 too good And I like to do thanks, um, And 1:39:15.400 --> 1:39:17.880 I do like your suggestion for the way asked bigger 1:39:17.920 --> 1:39:25.200 one just permissions, um mark concluders. You got your wedding 1:39:25.240 --> 1:39:29.120 ring off. Slowly he lost his shoes. Now he lost 1:39:29.160 --> 1:39:33.400 his wedding ring. I hope your wife not list. We're 1:39:33.439 --> 1:39:38.080 laying in bed. It's real quick. You're like a ring fiddler. 1:39:38.120 --> 1:39:41.479 I'm a ring fiddler. I've I've lost it, and like 1:39:41.600 --> 1:39:44.040 car seat cushion or like you know, down in the 1:39:44.120 --> 1:39:46.559 cracks and stuff. Many times I would be, but my 1:39:46.640 --> 1:39:50.360 fingers have changed. They've become more powerful to where I 1:39:50.400 --> 1:39:52.880 can't get mine off. I'll tell you a story, though, 1:39:53.200 --> 1:39:54.680 even though it's your turn for a concluder. When I 1:39:54.680 --> 1:39:56.320 was a kid, we were butchering a snap and turtle 1:39:56.920 --> 1:40:01.720 and my old man somehow in the process lost his 1:40:01.800 --> 1:40:05.800 wedding ring, and my mother was devastated. He was all 1:40:05.880 --> 1:40:09.360 upset and search and search, and eventually he got to 1:40:09.520 --> 1:40:12.960 where he remembered that he had rinsed all the turtle 1:40:13.000 --> 1:40:17.559 meat in this big tub and then pulled the turtle 1:40:17.600 --> 1:40:20.640 meat out, and then later took the tub and it 1:40:20.840 --> 1:40:25.240 dumped it in the garden just like water, and went 1:40:25.240 --> 1:40:27.720 out and was looking around the garden and found the 1:40:27.760 --> 1:40:31.640 wedding ring where he dumped after like running it through 1:40:31.680 --> 1:40:33.280 in his head like what could have possibly happened in 1:40:33.320 --> 1:40:34.960 that ring and eventually occurred to him and there it 1:40:35.000 --> 1:40:37.960 wasn't the gal I don't remember. How was a little 1:40:38.400 --> 1:40:41.720 we found a few in gup piles. We'd be back 1:40:41.720 --> 1:40:43.160 at camp and the guy, you know, all of a a 1:40:43.200 --> 1:40:48.040 sudden go oh oh no. A few twice it happened 1:40:48.120 --> 1:40:51.080 that I can remember. We go back and you know, 1:40:51.120 --> 1:40:53.640 because it gets that bloods can be slick, you know, 1:40:53.720 --> 1:40:56.679 and if you don't have those, you know, ever powerful 1:40:56.720 --> 1:40:59.240 fingers that continue to grow. And you know, my father 1:41:00.040 --> 1:41:07.920 livering baby pigs found at the pig Bacon years later. Uh. 1:41:08.760 --> 1:41:13.640 One time I was out we're floating um fishing and 1:41:13.640 --> 1:41:16.400 and uh I saw where a bunch of ravens were 1:41:16.400 --> 1:41:18.760 dicking around in the trees off the off the river. 1:41:20.040 --> 1:41:22.520 And we started going over and it's just bear trails, 1:41:22.560 --> 1:41:24.680 like new bear trails leaning this area, and someone had 1:41:24.720 --> 1:41:27.360 butchered to moose and so it's an area the size 1:41:27.360 --> 1:41:31.680 of this hotel room. It's just matted down grass. You know, 1:41:31.800 --> 1:41:33.640 they're just in there really heavy, like feeding on the 1:41:33.680 --> 1:41:36.320 carcase is totally gone and laying in the middle of 1:41:36.360 --> 1:41:40.439 this room sized piece of matted ground is a leather 1:41:40.560 --> 1:41:44.200 man that looks licked clean, just like glistening in the 1:41:44.240 --> 1:41:46.840 sun lander and you can tell that some dude like 1:41:46.920 --> 1:41:50.120 lost it. Butcher and his moose, and eventually all the 1:41:50.120 --> 1:41:53.040 ship that was obscuring it from his view has been 1:41:53.120 --> 1:41:55.639 mopped up and then cleaned. The part of this thing 1:41:55.680 --> 1:41:58.559 looked like off the factory floor laying in there. I 1:41:58.600 --> 1:42:01.320 still have that thing. I still have that was over 1:42:01.360 --> 1:42:04.120 a decade ago. I keep it kind of a special place. 1:42:04.760 --> 1:42:07.240 Not it's not in my medicine box, but it's in 1:42:07.280 --> 1:42:09.920 a place where it could someday make its way. It 1:42:10.000 --> 1:42:12.479 hasn't been upgraded to the medicine box, but it's close. 1:42:12.840 --> 1:42:16.240 Mark your concluder. After a few delays there, I'm sorry, 1:42:16.439 --> 1:42:19.400 that's okay. Uh Well, I guess first, I just want 1:42:19.400 --> 1:42:21.760 to thank you so much for having me here for 1:42:21.840 --> 1:42:24.360 this trip and this experience and being on here in 1:42:24.400 --> 1:42:28.439 the podcast. It's been unbelievable experience. I think me and 1:42:28.479 --> 1:42:29.840 Doug have just said it over and over and over 1:42:29.880 --> 1:42:31.360 again to each other. They just look at each other 1:42:31.360 --> 1:42:37.559 and we wow, just amazing. Thank you. Um. And I 1:42:37.560 --> 1:42:39.160 guess I was just I was trying to think here 1:42:39.160 --> 1:42:40.920 about things we've talked about and things we haven't yet 1:42:40.920 --> 1:42:45.599 talked about, um and something that is worth noting. And 1:42:45.640 --> 1:42:49.439 maybe it's I think it's maybe more so it's a 1:42:49.560 --> 1:42:53.840 kind of a white tail guy thing. Is that I'm 1:42:53.880 --> 1:42:56.559 generalizing here, but I think very often we white tail 1:42:56.640 --> 1:42:58.400 guys get something that I kind of referred to as 1:42:58.439 --> 1:43:04.400 conservation tunnel vision, where we start looking at just our 1:43:04.880 --> 1:43:08.680 back forty or our little place or our property, and 1:43:08.680 --> 1:43:11.280 we're very focused on just what's happening there. I just 1:43:11.360 --> 1:43:14.040 want to make sure, I mean, these are good things. 1:43:14.080 --> 1:43:17.200 Maybe doing some habitat work or you know, killing dose 1:43:17.320 --> 1:43:18.800 because that's going to help your herd or whatever it 1:43:18.880 --> 1:43:20.960 might be. You care about that little slice, and that's 1:43:20.960 --> 1:43:24.000 important and good. But what I worry sometimes within my 1:43:24.040 --> 1:43:27.439 little community is that sometimes we fail to pay attention 1:43:27.600 --> 1:43:30.360 or care about the bigger picture things as much, like 1:43:30.880 --> 1:43:34.600 public land issues or clean air, clean water, um or 1:43:34.640 --> 1:43:36.360 whatever it might be. So one of the things I 1:43:36.400 --> 1:43:40.800 always try to remind my white tail brotherhood is that 1:43:41.080 --> 1:43:44.639 all these bigger picture issues they impact all of us too, 1:43:45.160 --> 1:43:49.400 um So, so try to listen and hear about all 1:43:49.439 --> 1:43:52.840 these different issues. Educate yourself, care about your back forty 1:43:52.960 --> 1:43:55.439 but also look at these bigger picture things that impact 1:43:56.240 --> 1:43:59.559 your hunting rights or the ability for us to have 1:44:00.040 --> 1:44:03.519 you know, vibrant wildlife populations across the country. Like it 1:44:03.600 --> 1:44:08.920 or not, your back is part of the earth. Yeah, exactly, 1:44:08.960 --> 1:44:11.599 so I think you know, that's all I That's all 1:44:11.600 --> 1:44:13.519 I'd add to is that we are a part of 1:44:13.560 --> 1:44:17.559 a very large, connected world, and um, let's take care 1:44:17.560 --> 1:44:19.400 of it. Have you ever heard the idea? It's a 1:44:19.479 --> 1:44:24.960 theoretical concept that Okay, like like think of your own body, 1:44:24.960 --> 1:44:29.719 like you're an organism, right, and at being an organism, 1:44:29.800 --> 1:44:31.880 you have you're made up of many organs that have 1:44:31.960 --> 1:44:34.920 all these functions. So you have circulatory system, right, you're 1:44:34.960 --> 1:44:39.080 like taking in liquids, pulling things, expelling things, and you're 1:44:39.120 --> 1:44:42.160 this part. And then you also have more cells that 1:44:42.240 --> 1:44:45.479 aren't you than that are you. When you think of 1:44:45.520 --> 1:44:49.400 all the micro organisms that comprise your gatten, that live 1:44:49.479 --> 1:44:52.759 on you as parasites or in symbiotic relationships with yourselves 1:44:53.160 --> 1:44:57.920 with yourself, Um, there's this theoretical concept that you would 1:44:58.000 --> 1:45:02.519 think of the earth as an organism, And at first 1:45:02.520 --> 1:45:04.280 it seems kind of trippy and like a little bit 1:45:04.280 --> 1:45:06.400 out there, but once you start thinking about if you 1:45:06.439 --> 1:45:09.120 imagine the earth as an organism and it has a 1:45:09.120 --> 1:45:15.120 circulatory system, and it breathes, and it has blood, and 1:45:15.160 --> 1:45:20.080 it has micro organisms within it. It's just like something 1:45:20.080 --> 1:45:21.840 when you like land about at night. It's fun to 1:45:21.840 --> 1:45:27.360 start imagining that that you you are one of those microbes, 1:45:28.479 --> 1:45:32.400 the same that you have millions and millions of microbes 1:45:32.560 --> 1:45:36.000 in you. You are one of those microbes that is 1:45:36.160 --> 1:45:41.680 part of this organism, the earth, and your concept of 1:45:41.720 --> 1:45:44.120 your world. If you imagine if those microbes in your 1:45:44.120 --> 1:45:48.200 gut had consciousness, their consciousness would lead them to think 1:45:48.280 --> 1:45:51.879 that they are the thing. They are the thing that matters, 1:45:53.040 --> 1:45:55.400 and this body that gives them life and that they 1:45:55.439 --> 1:45:58.479 exist in is just this broader other that they don't 1:45:58.520 --> 1:46:03.160 really get because they are the point of existence. And 1:46:03.320 --> 1:46:06.240 expand that outward and outward and outward, and it becomes 1:46:06.280 --> 1:46:09.960 an interesting mental exercise. And I think if we all 1:46:10.880 --> 1:46:12.880 looked at things a little bit more that way, it 1:46:12.920 --> 1:46:17.040 could lead to some positive things. Alright, man, Thanks tuning 1:46:17.040 --> 1:46:17.240 in