WEBVTT - Andrea Crosta: Defender of Wildlife

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<v Speaker 1>This is Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's

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<v Speaker 1>the Thing from My Heart Radio. The statistics are staggering.

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<v Speaker 1>Up to a million plant and animal species are expected

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<v Speaker 1>to vanish by the year twenty fifty, and we've experienced

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<v Speaker 1>an almost seventy percent decline in wildlife since nineteen seventy alone.

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<v Speaker 1>My guest today, Andrea Crosta is the founder of Earth

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<v Speaker 1>League International, a nonprofit organization whose objective is to protect

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<v Speaker 1>our oceans, forests, and wildlife through research and investigation. It's

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<v Speaker 1>an intelligence agency like the CIA, but for earth. The

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<v Speaker 1>organization has helped crack down on wildlife trafficking, from a

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<v Speaker 1>cartel moving sea cucumbers in Mexico to a jaguar fang

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<v Speaker 1>ring in Bolivia. The dangerous work of infiltrating the organized

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<v Speaker 1>crime units was recently profiled in the New Yorker article

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<v Speaker 1>entitled Earth League International Hunts the Hunters. The path to

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<v Speaker 1>Andrea Crosto's calling has been a long and winding road.

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<v Speaker 1>Prior to his work as head of EIL, he held

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<v Speaker 1>various positions in security and animal activism before starting the

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<v Speaker 1>online shopping company Think Italy in his native country.

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<v Speaker 2>I Think Italy was we're talking about ninety seven ninety

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<v Speaker 2>eight was the prehistory of shopping online in Italy. So

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<v Speaker 2>there was the second e commerce website ever in Italy

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<v Speaker 2>with Microsoft was the first Casey history of Microsoft in

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<v Speaker 2>Italy free shopping. And I went all the way up,

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<v Speaker 2>and then when the Nazda crashed in two thousand and one,

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<v Speaker 2>I went all the way down and I sold the

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<v Speaker 2>full debts basically, but it was like an Amazon type

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<v Speaker 2>of time. Yeah yeah, yeah, back in the I mean

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<v Speaker 2>ninety eight we were talking really about it. But Dawn

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<v Speaker 2>and you would not believe how many people in ninety

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<v Speaker 2>eight told me e commerce.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think it's the thing.

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<v Speaker 2>No, never work, You're an idiot and says, okay whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>But then when I then sold Think Italy, I was

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<v Speaker 2>already into business and I did another master degree in

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<v Speaker 2>business administration. My first one was conservation zoology and actually

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<v Speaker 2>that my love was always there. And then I started

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<v Speaker 2>to work as a business consultant for those companies that

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<v Speaker 2>was pre snowed and those companies who that produce technologies

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<v Speaker 2>for spying basically who taught you that I was just

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<v Speaker 2>doing the business part, so I was just no, I

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<v Speaker 2>was help selling stuff to spies, but not me. But

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<v Speaker 2>I got in contact with a lot of them, of course.

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<v Speaker 1>But I see you go from animal rights activists to businessman,

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<v Speaker 1>security consultant, and then it says he occasionally trained park.

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<v Speaker 2>Rangers, correct, and that trained you. My job was to

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<v Speaker 2>find people to train them. So I was always you know.

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<v Speaker 1>In the train them in terms of but not with

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<v Speaker 1>weaponry as well. Oh really yeah, until trained you, nobody

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<v Speaker 1>I was.

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<v Speaker 3>My job was just okay, let's find the great trainer

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<v Speaker 3>or you would.

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<v Speaker 1>Have especially the man yeah, exactly doing the train.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was going down in the middle of nowhere

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<v Speaker 2>in Kenya when the Kenye Wildlife Service has a sort

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<v Speaker 2>of a shooting range and the training center, and we

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<v Speaker 2>were there for two weeks, three weeks trying to help

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<v Speaker 2>these rangers too.

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<v Speaker 3>That was was twenty ten.

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<v Speaker 2>We were right in the middle of the elephant poaching

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<v Speaker 2>crisis and we were losing twenty five.

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<v Speaker 1>Where's the training center, what part of the.

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<v Speaker 3>It's near Sao National So when.

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<v Speaker 1>You're there, those rangers are under what flag? Meaning they

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<v Speaker 1>were service Keny that's the National wild to protect all cares.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and they were very undertrained there in their whip

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<v Speaker 2>you know they were.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that the wealth of Kenya interns.

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<v Speaker 2>I know that they didn't some of them didn't have shoes,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean really really, and they were up to train poachers.

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<v Speaker 1>And they couldn't pay them very much. No, not very much.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly. We thought, okay, let's that was the beginning.

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<v Speaker 2>And that I and this is when you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>will started to in my head said, okay, wait a second.

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<v Speaker 2>I went out many times with them. I witnessed those terribles,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, seeing that you can imagine, you know, an

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<v Speaker 2>entire family of elephants Gonne down with Ak forty seven

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<v Speaker 2>and and I could see almost you know when you're

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<v Speaker 2>see in comics like a question mark on the head

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<v Speaker 2>of the Rangers. And back then the whole world international

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<v Speaker 2>community was asking them, the Rangers.

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<v Speaker 3>To solve the problem. And I thought, that's unfair.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I mean, elephant poaching and ivory trafficking is

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<v Speaker 2>like you can it's under environmental crime. We're talking about

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<v Speaker 2>the fourth largest criminal enterprise in the world, up more

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<v Speaker 2>than two hundred billions of dollars every year, and you're

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<v Speaker 2>asking the Rangers to solve the problem. It's like asking

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<v Speaker 2>for exactly so It's like it's like asking your you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the La County sheriff to solve narco trafficking.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not their job.

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<v Speaker 2>So because of my past and here we come to

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the circle is because of my past and

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<v Speaker 2>working with intelligence agency. I asked, okay, but who is

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<v Speaker 2>using professional intelligence. I'm talking about CIA kind of intelligence

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<v Speaker 2>to fight back because the problem is not the poachers,

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<v Speaker 2>is the traffickers in international traffickers, trafficking networks, organized crime.

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<v Speaker 2>And the answer was nobody. And so I said, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to do it. I mean, I didn't know

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<v Speaker 2>how difficult it would would be big, but I said, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>So I stopped what I was doing. Back then, I

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<v Speaker 2>was in Kenya. My job was a security consultant again,

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<v Speaker 2>hiring the right people for the former Prime Minister of

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<v Speaker 2>Somalia who had huge security problems with the terrorist group

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<v Speaker 2>al Shabab. You know, that was the time when al

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<v Speaker 2>Shabab controlled all Somalia and also part of Kenya. So

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<v Speaker 2>this guy had and I was there for this reason,

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<v Speaker 2>and I said, okay, I think it's time to go

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<v Speaker 2>back to my roots today. And I was born with

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<v Speaker 2>this huge love for animals and for wild life and

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<v Speaker 2>this huge desire to protect them.

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<v Speaker 3>And I said, how I'm going to do it.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I'm going to create the first intelligence agency for

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<v Speaker 2>the first CIA for the planet. And I start looking

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<v Speaker 2>for the right people because it's not easy, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>form a CIA from FBI crime analyst under separators to point.

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<v Speaker 2>The selling point was, I remember to Mark Davis is

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<v Speaker 2>my right hand right now, twenty eight years with the FBI,

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<v Speaker 2>one of the most successful undercover agents in the history

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<v Speaker 2>of the FBI. We're actually doing a documentary about him.

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<v Speaker 2>And I told him, listen, Mark, you were under cover

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<v Speaker 2>with Chapon, Escobar, Russia mafia, Italian mafia, pedophile, corrupt government official.

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<v Speaker 2>I have the biggest, most important war you ever fought

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<v Speaker 2>in your life, and it's the war for Earth. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's it was sold. It's instantaneously.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And he is best San Diego and he's an incredible person.

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<v Speaker 2>You can imagine twenty eight years with and the agency

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<v Speaker 2>as well.

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<v Speaker 1>And what did you tell him that you wanted him

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<v Speaker 1>to do? You wanted him to do what.

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<v Speaker 2>The task was to build, to build a brand new

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<v Speaker 2>organization with former CIA FBI.

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<v Speaker 1>What budget?

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<v Speaker 2>Now I have the budget, but back back then I

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<v Speaker 2>was I was really crazy. I mean I was, and

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<v Speaker 2>he marked to his credit he has been working for me,

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<v Speaker 2>for us for many years. We started to pay him

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<v Speaker 2>this year. Okay, this is extraordinary.

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<v Speaker 1>People.

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<v Speaker 2>So they volunteered, volunteer, some of them absolutely him first

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<v Speaker 2>of all. So and so slowly we started to create

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<v Speaker 2>this mini Meani Intelligence Agency with the task. The objective

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<v Speaker 2>is to investigate and collect intelligence at the highest possible

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<v Speaker 2>level from these international trafficking networks. And when you go

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<v Speaker 2>so high in the network as not environmental crime anymore,

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<v Speaker 2>there is a lot of what is called crime convergence,

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<v Speaker 2>so the convergence of environmental crimes with other serious crimes,

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<v Speaker 2>money laundering, human smuggling, human trafficking, arco traffic, same people,

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<v Speaker 2>same networks.

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<v Speaker 3>They can offer you.

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<v Speaker 2>Same infrastructure, same infrastructure, same people to bribe and during

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<v Speaker 2>a meeting, they can offer you three tons of shark fins,

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<v Speaker 2>three under jaguar fanks, two tons of ivory. But I

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<v Speaker 2>also I also smuggled exactly exactly, and that's what was

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<v Speaker 2>till now, that was the layer of the problem, completely

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<v Speaker 2>misunderstood actually unknown also by law enforcement. And that's why

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<v Speaker 2>it's precious what we do because we're we have under

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<v Speaker 2>COVID teams who are that are in the field.

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<v Speaker 3>Get you know, the.

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<v Speaker 2>Kind of work we do is a sort of sophisticated

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<v Speaker 2>social engineering work. In other words, we are really good

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<v Speaker 2>in becoming your friend. And when we are friends, you

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<v Speaker 2>are gonna tell me everything I need to know of

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<v Speaker 2>the time.

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<v Speaker 1>And why do you think I'm going to get to

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<v Speaker 1>that in terms of your methodology, because I have read

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<v Speaker 1>that in the article. That was a great article. So

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<v Speaker 1>how do you get them to talk? How do you

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<v Speaker 1>get them to trust?

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<v Speaker 3>Your trust?

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<v Speaker 2>That's the magic world, and so you have to take

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<v Speaker 2>your time to establish trust with these people.

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<v Speaker 1>Give me an example of someone you're after, why and

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<v Speaker 1>what do you do? What do you say to him

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<v Speaker 1>or her?

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<v Speaker 2>So, first of all, there's work done before through our

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<v Speaker 2>content because we operate like a small agency, so we

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<v Speaker 2>are crude sources and informants on the ground, doesn't matter

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<v Speaker 2>where Colombia, South Africa, Mexico doesn't matter. And they tell

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<v Speaker 2>us who are the big players, and then we send

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<v Speaker 2>another team and their team is to become their friends.

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<v Speaker 2>So they introduce themselves as businessmen, as potential traffickers. We

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<v Speaker 2>never do anything illegal. We never buy anything illegal, which

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<v Speaker 2>is really good in listening. We also use a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of under COVID devices to capture videos and conversations, so

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<v Speaker 2>we produce a ton of intelligence and over a period

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<v Speaker 2>of time, their job is to become their friends. And

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<v Speaker 2>so they these people, the targets, the traffickers. They have

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<v Speaker 2>to see in our people a potential gain and put

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<v Speaker 2>potential money down the road. Okay, so we have to play.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like acting for these people pretty much. And until

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<v Speaker 2>you get to a point where there is trust, there

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<v Speaker 2>is friendship. So they invite you, Hey, when are you

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<v Speaker 2>coming back again to Columbia? When are you coming back

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<v Speaker 2>again to Thailand? Because we have I have have these

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<v Speaker 2>have that are you in. They want to do business,

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<v Speaker 2>They want to do business. You lead them to you

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<v Speaker 2>lead them to believe you're there to do business or

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<v Speaker 2>or even better not me business, but I know somebody

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<v Speaker 2>because this money. Yeah, and this allows us to stretch

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<v Speaker 2>it even more because the point is to spend with

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<v Speaker 2>them as much time as possible. Right, So if you

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<v Speaker 2>say I'm the buy exactly, if I'm the buyer, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>how many time you want to meet them with exactly?

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<v Speaker 2>So it's no my boss is in here, isn't there?

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<v Speaker 2>And so with that we sometimes stay with them two

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<v Speaker 2>three years, so dangling, and they invite us to family

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<v Speaker 2>events wedding, birthday, and we go there and we film

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<v Speaker 2>and record everything and everything is then passed to our

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<v Speaker 2>crime analyst who receives like an incredible amount of information.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's the second part, very interesting, so data processing

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<v Speaker 2>and they understand figured out what we get.

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<v Speaker 3>But that's this is how we work.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm seeing a movie now. Oh yeah, I'm seeing

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<v Speaker 1>a movie now where like The Godfather, you're at the

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<v Speaker 1>airport and all the containers are filled with rhino horn

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<v Speaker 1>and the cops come to bust the guy that you've

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<v Speaker 1>been soliciting for two years and he's in shock because

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<v Speaker 1>he thought you and he were best friends, and you

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<v Speaker 1>just kiss him on the mouth of Francesco. I am

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<v Speaker 1>so sorry, and he just take it up. He goes

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<v Speaker 1>to prison for twenty years and you've been working on

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<v Speaker 1>this case for a while.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, And what happens with the exception is that we

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<v Speaker 2>usually disappear a little before the arrest or the action,

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<v Speaker 2>and best case scenario is when the bad guys do

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<v Speaker 2>not understand what went wrong, Okay, well, I don't even

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<v Speaker 2>think you're to blame exactly, and we were so.

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<v Speaker 1>Operating in that sphere with us.

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<v Speaker 3>Exactly, wise it will be over right.

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<v Speaker 2>So, of course, as you can imagine, our field operators,

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<v Speaker 2>their identity is confidential even within our organization. There are

0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:17.040
<v Speaker 2>no pictures of them, and of course it's it's a

0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:19.360
<v Speaker 2>very delicate job they do.

0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:22.840
<v Speaker 1>Of course, are you Are you concerned since the article

0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:24.800
<v Speaker 1>came out now that people know who you are?

0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:28.439
<v Speaker 3>No about me, not really, I mean that ship. You're

0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:29.319
<v Speaker 3>not the sale already.

0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:30.840
<v Speaker 1>I mean you're not the face of a lot of

0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:31.520
<v Speaker 1>these operations.

0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:34.400
<v Speaker 3>You never No, I cannot be people who you've.

0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:35.960
<v Speaker 1>Trained and who work for you there the operative.

0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:38.040
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely No.

0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.120
<v Speaker 2>My job is when we have enough information is to

0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.760
<v Speaker 2>engage government agency and local enforcement, including in the US,

0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:48.640
<v Speaker 2>and say hey, we have this information, we have this intelligence.

0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:49.800
<v Speaker 3>I think it's interesting.

0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:52.800
<v Speaker 2>And the beauty of crime convergence, or the convergence without

0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.680
<v Speaker 2>a serious crime, is that if you approach like it

0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:59.000
<v Speaker 2>happened in a US law enforcement agency, a big one,

0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:01.360
<v Speaker 2>and say hey, I have a case about this guy

0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.400
<v Speaker 2>and he's a big shark trafficker, they say thank you,

0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:06.000
<v Speaker 2>But you know, we have a lot of work. But

0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:09.559
<v Speaker 2>if I say that the same guy is into international

0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:12.400
<v Speaker 2>money laundering and human smuggling, human trafficking, all of.

0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:14.840
<v Speaker 3>A sudden, you just have their attention. And that's my

0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:17.920
<v Speaker 3>whole point. Okay, I'm going to bring you a good case.

0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:18.960
<v Speaker 1>It's like a poison pill.

0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:23.280
<v Speaker 3>You can take the credit, you can arrest them.

0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:25.760
<v Speaker 2>It's fine as long as I can work behind the scene,

0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:28.480
<v Speaker 2>as long as you put them away for a longer

0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.680
<v Speaker 2>period of time. Because sometimes if you arrest these people

0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:36.160
<v Speaker 2>for environmental crime or wildlife trafficking, they get maybe a

0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.319
<v Speaker 2>few weeks or a year of if but if you're

0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:41.800
<v Speaker 2>arresting for money laundering, oh that's different.

0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:45.400
<v Speaker 1>Is that typically the goal is is that the reality

0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:49.400
<v Speaker 1>meaning you have to accept this compromise. And I'm gladly

0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:51.840
<v Speaker 1>because you're getting your work done, but you have to

0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:56.400
<v Speaker 1>accept this compromise whereby you have to embed it inside

0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:58.959
<v Speaker 1>these other things. They're never going to act just on

0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:01.800
<v Speaker 1>the spirit of the animal protection and animal rights alone.

0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:02.440
<v Speaker 1>They won't do that.

0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:05.120
<v Speaker 3>No, they will do it. Only they started to do it.

0:14:05.160 --> 0:14:07.880
<v Speaker 2>You know, there are for example, US Homeland Security just

0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.280
<v Speaker 2>launcher like a new unit deDion.

0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:13.520
<v Speaker 3>Correct, So that's great news.

0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:15.720
<v Speaker 2>So they will they will have money and they have

0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.080
<v Speaker 2>certainly they have the mandate now to do it. And

0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:20.960
<v Speaker 2>we also help them as well with information. So that's

0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:23.960
<v Speaker 2>the that's the goal, is to have these big agencies

0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:28.720
<v Speaker 2>like gorillas, Yeah, with money jumping into the fight.

0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:32.840
<v Speaker 1>Where around the world would you say, do you enjoy

0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:35.920
<v Speaker 1>the highest level of cooperation.

0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:36.280
<v Speaker 3>One for sure?

0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.280
<v Speaker 2>The US, it is yes, absolutely, we WI We have

0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.600
<v Speaker 2>been sharing confidential information. We produce those reports that we

0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:47.800
<v Speaker 2>call confidential intelligence briefs and with many US agency and

0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:50.800
<v Speaker 2>they're acting on the information. In the past couple of years,

0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:53.760
<v Speaker 2>we help a public prosecutor in Mexico to arrest people,

0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:56.960
<v Speaker 2>We help a public prosecutor in Bolivia to arrest people.

0:14:57.080 --> 0:14:57.600
<v Speaker 3>They do it.

0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:02.000
<v Speaker 2>The problem is that a like the US in almost

0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:05.640
<v Speaker 2>any other country, they don't have the capability.

0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:07.240
<v Speaker 3>To investigate these people.

0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:12.160
<v Speaker 2>Just too high, okay, And so when we give information

0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:15.360
<v Speaker 2>to the US authorities, they can redo what we did

0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:18.680
<v Speaker 2>and collect evidence and actually do even more than that.

0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:20.440
<v Speaker 3>Of course you can imagine, right, But.

0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:24.920
<v Speaker 2>When you share information with Bolivia, Colombian, Thai or South Africa,

0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:27.080
<v Speaker 2>you just have to direct them toward Okay, go to

0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:30.400
<v Speaker 2>this place now and you will find these and these

0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:33.680
<v Speaker 2>and these, and you can arrest them and they do it. Unfortunately,

0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.560
<v Speaker 2>they don't have the capacity to do more.

0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:39.280
<v Speaker 1>So you're like dogs who sniff out the crime and

0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:40.880
<v Speaker 1>sniff out the people. Then you have to turn it

0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:41.720
<v Speaker 1>over to somebody else.

0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:42.160
<v Speaker 3>Exactly.

0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:45.360
<v Speaker 1>Now, one would assume only because of money. I don't

0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:48.600
<v Speaker 1>want to speak ill of the policies or the people

0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:51.760
<v Speaker 1>for that matter, of places like Africa and India, but

0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:53.840
<v Speaker 1>I would imagine because of budgets and money that those

0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:55.400
<v Speaker 1>are some of the toughest places for you to deal

0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:58.520
<v Speaker 1>with what you are rich in these resources and have

0:15:58.600 --> 0:15:59.920
<v Speaker 1>no money to defend.

0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:04.120
<v Speaker 2>Them, sometimes also no interest Sadly, environmental crime in many

0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:08.440
<v Speaker 2>countries is not a priority. It's saying okay, it's nature,

0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:10.000
<v Speaker 2>it's animals, whatever, you know.

0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:12.960
<v Speaker 1>So the human compoundent is viewed as part of the cycle.

0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:13.520
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely.

0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:16.680
<v Speaker 2>So the agents not only under resources but also underfunded,

0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:19.800
<v Speaker 2>but also the people are are not people of the will, no,

0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:23.200
<v Speaker 2>and they from the top, from policy makers, from the officials,

0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:25.920
<v Speaker 2>big of you know, important officials or minis. Even the

0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:28.360
<v Speaker 2>minis sometimes they don't have a clear mandate or what

0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:29.960
<v Speaker 2>to do on.

0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:30.920
<v Speaker 3>Top of it.

0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:35.360
<v Speaker 2>What we do in the field, we often uncover corruption

0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:36.760
<v Speaker 2>at the highest level.

0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:38.640
<v Speaker 3>Okay, and they what do you do them? And they

0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:40.440
<v Speaker 3>don't like exactly and they don't like it?

0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:42.080
<v Speaker 1>What are you doing? You go home?

0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:44.960
<v Speaker 3>No, we share with US authorities days.

0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.520
<v Speaker 1>So the US ever taken any actions on that information.

0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:48.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, absolutely they did.

0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:52.040
<v Speaker 2>They did, And actually there was an important arrest in

0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:56.160
<v Speaker 2>southern California, San Diego end of May this year, and

0:16:56.240 --> 0:17:00.040
<v Speaker 2>that was I cannot give you too many details, but

0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:04.440
<v Speaker 2>it's basically that was our work for almost two years

0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:07.720
<v Speaker 2>and they took down three of the most important, in

0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:11.080
<v Speaker 2>my opinion, whilelife traffics that've been operating between Mexico and

0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:13.280
<v Speaker 2>the US and China, because a lot of stuff goes

0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:17.399
<v Speaker 2>to China. And that's a great example of us doing

0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:19.840
<v Speaker 2>the first part of the job, and they do.

0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:21.280
<v Speaker 3>What they're supposed to do.

0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:29.840
<v Speaker 1>Of course, Earth League internationals Andrea Krosta. If you enjoy

0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:34.560
<v Speaker 1>conversations with activists fighting for animal rights, check out my

0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:37.399
<v Speaker 1>episode with the co founder of People for the Ethical

0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:39.720
<v Speaker 1>Treatment of Animals, Ingrid Newkirk.

0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:43.399
<v Speaker 4>There was a time when hunting was what many people

0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.680
<v Speaker 4>had to do to survive, and just as other animals hunt,

0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:49.960
<v Speaker 4>some humans had to hunt. I think those times have

0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:53.600
<v Speaker 4>also largely gone, and most people who hunt today are

0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.200
<v Speaker 4>not just getting one caribou to put it on the table.

0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:57.280
<v Speaker 3>It does happen.

0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:01.000
<v Speaker 4>I think being pragmatic is very good. You have to

0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:03.280
<v Speaker 4>have your head in the sky and your feet on

0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:07.080
<v Speaker 4>the ground. But we're looking at you know, Donald Trump

0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:09.480
<v Speaker 4>Junior going out to put a head on his wall.

0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:14.600
<v Speaker 1>That's a different story. To hear more of my conversation

0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:19.320
<v Speaker 1>with Ingrid Newkirk, go to Hear's Thething dot org. After

0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:23.159
<v Speaker 1>the break, Andrea Crosta shares how we are at a

0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:43.359
<v Speaker 1>now or never moment for rescuing our ecosystem. I'm Alec

0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:47.720
<v Speaker 1>Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. The illegal

0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:52.560
<v Speaker 1>slaughter of wildlife for human consumption in food or medicine

0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:56.440
<v Speaker 1>is well documented. Most of us are aware of shark

0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:01.200
<v Speaker 1>vin soup or rhino horn virility pills. But there is

0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:04.520
<v Speaker 1>a rare animal, very much at risk that is not

0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:08.760
<v Speaker 1>getting the same attention as the others. Earth League International's

0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:12.640
<v Speaker 1>founder Andrea Crosta is fighting to save a porpoise called

0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:17.240
<v Speaker 1>the Wakita in the Sea of Cortez. This little known

0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.680
<v Speaker 1>marine mammal is dying in the guild nets of fishermen

0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:23.320
<v Speaker 1>as they pursue a fish called the toto waba.

0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:26.159
<v Speaker 2>So the whole story of the wakita is one of

0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:28.800
<v Speaker 2>the most bizarre stories I ever because it's the wakita

0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:31.680
<v Speaker 2>is the rarest marine mammal in the world, you know.

0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:33.160
<v Speaker 3>And sadly now.

0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.320
<v Speaker 1>The baby whale, it's sort of a baby.

0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:38.520
<v Speaker 2>Was really exactly a miniature twin whale and dolphin. Correct,

0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:41.760
<v Speaker 2>And it's endemic of the Sea of Cortes. Ba Californas

0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:46.160
<v Speaker 2>are only there and now probably less than ten survive

0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:48.720
<v Speaker 2>in the whole Sea of Cortez. Okay, they are at

0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:52.359
<v Speaker 2>what like on literally on the brink of extinction, and

0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:53.200
<v Speaker 2>the reason.

0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:56.080
<v Speaker 3>Is because they die as bycatch in those nets.

0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:59.440
<v Speaker 2>But those nets are actually for a fish called toto aba,

0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:02.600
<v Speaker 2>and the swim bladder of the toto aaba is actually

0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:05.080
<v Speaker 2>they what we're looking for. So it's from medicine, for

0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:06.400
<v Speaker 2>traditional Chinese medicine.

0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:07.120
<v Speaker 3>So they put this.

0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:10.040
<v Speaker 1>The Chinese wanted to toaba from Mexico.

0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:12.600
<v Speaker 3>Swim bladder just swim describe.

0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:15.640
<v Speaker 1>Of the Chinese allowed by any kind of territorial agreements.

0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:18.320
<v Speaker 1>I mean that water off the coast of Baja California

0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:21.840
<v Speaker 1>must belong to some government entity in Mexico, of course,

0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:24.399
<v Speaker 1>allowing the Chinese to take all that.

0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:26.520
<v Speaker 3>No, but there is not nothing that is being smuggled.

0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:29.080
<v Speaker 3>It's crime. It's one hundred percent crime living.

0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:31.040
<v Speaker 1>Based on the other things you said that a lot

0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:32.520
<v Speaker 1>of the people who are doing the smuggling are also

0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:33.360
<v Speaker 1>drug dealers who are.

0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:35.120
<v Speaker 3>Smuggling because they make a lot of money.

0:20:35.400 --> 0:20:37.080
<v Speaker 1>You know, you have the pathways the rahaps.

0:20:37.320 --> 0:20:40.760
<v Speaker 2>Imagine one swim bladder, which is a swim better Okay,

0:20:40.760 --> 0:20:43.199
<v Speaker 2>we're talking about a swim letter of a fish. In

0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:47.400
<v Speaker 2>Baja California, the fishing cooperatives and the fishers make three

0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:51.359
<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars per swim bladder. Usually they make six hundred

0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:52.920
<v Speaker 2>dollars a month fishing.

0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:53.480
<v Speaker 1>So you can.

0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:57.080
<v Speaker 2>Imagine the temptation. How That's why sometimes my whole bottle

0:20:57.240 --> 0:21:00.879
<v Speaker 2>was Hey, stop pointing the finger towards to theatres and

0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:01.760
<v Speaker 2>the illegal fishermen.

0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:02.960
<v Speaker 3>You don't know what you're talking about.

0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:05.800
<v Speaker 2>You don't know what is to live there in the

0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:09.200
<v Speaker 2>middle of nowhere, with no state, no jobs, no nothing,

0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:09.960
<v Speaker 2>no security.

0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:10.760
<v Speaker 3>Of course they do it.

0:21:10.920 --> 0:21:13.680
<v Speaker 2>The problem are the traffickers go after them, not after

0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.840
<v Speaker 2>the posers. Okay, you make six hundred dollars a month fishing,

0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:19.040
<v Speaker 2>and one swim bladder is three thousand dollars, of course

0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:22.240
<v Speaker 2>you do it. So the swim bladder three thousand dollars

0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:26.600
<v Speaker 2>apiece in the Sea of Cortes and then this strange

0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:29.920
<v Speaker 2>illegal supply chain begins through Mexico, through the US all

0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:32.080
<v Speaker 2>the way to China, and in China the same swim

0:21:32.080 --> 0:21:35.639
<v Speaker 2>bladder goes for forty fifty, sixty, even seventy thousand dollars

0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:39.000
<v Speaker 2>third piece. And that's why then art courts and organized

0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:41.639
<v Speaker 2>crime jump in because it's a lot of money with

0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:44.560
<v Speaker 2>almost zero resk. Because you're not dealing with cocaine or stuff.

0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:46.679
<v Speaker 2>You're right be dealing with swim bladders. Nobody cares, but

0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:47.639
<v Speaker 2>it's a lot of money.

0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:50.159
<v Speaker 1>It's ironic to me, and it's not lost on me

0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:55.080
<v Speaker 1>that there's duplicative in terms of this. They toto waba

0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:58.399
<v Speaker 1>swim bladder issue in the Sea of Cortez and the

0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:01.680
<v Speaker 1>drugs themselves. Meaning we've had a policy for forty something

0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:04.600
<v Speaker 1>years in this country of interdiction and only going after

0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:09.040
<v Speaker 1>the producers and not going to the demand and trying

0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:11.399
<v Speaker 1>to stop the demand because these poor people are going

0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:13.080
<v Speaker 1>to produce it and trying to make money anyway that

0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:15.439
<v Speaker 1>they can, and it mimics the same thing in the

0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:16.399
<v Speaker 1>drug world as it does.

0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:19.920
<v Speaker 2>And they today I read that in Colombia for another year,

0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:23.240
<v Speaker 2>they're cultivating more cocaine than last year. So it's growing

0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:27.360
<v Speaker 2>because these are poor people who have nothing else to do,

0:22:27.880 --> 0:22:30.560
<v Speaker 2>and yet they became the villain. And what I'm keep

0:22:30.640 --> 0:22:33.200
<v Speaker 2>saying is the villain is not the poacher. The villain

0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:34.760
<v Speaker 2>is not the compass, you know. The villain is the

0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:36.480
<v Speaker 2>trafficker who lives in Park.

0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:38.359
<v Speaker 1>Avenue by the way, Miami.

0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:39.240
<v Speaker 3>Oh exactly.

0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:43.440
<v Speaker 1>Now, when I was younger, the portal for me into

0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:45.200
<v Speaker 1>a lot of this stuff was my ex wife, who

0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:47.480
<v Speaker 1>was a big animal rights person and is a big

0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:51.560
<v Speaker 1>animal rights person, and she introduced me to different people.

0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:53.160
<v Speaker 1>We met, you know, in the early days. We met

0:22:53.200 --> 0:22:55.960
<v Speaker 1>Alex Pacheco when he was still involved with Peter and

0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:59.919
<v Speaker 1>then he left, Ingrid Newkirk, who co founded with Alex.

0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:03.040
<v Speaker 1>There's people who this is such a cause for them,

0:23:03.240 --> 0:23:06.359
<v Speaker 1>this is such a burning ache in them, how these

0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:08.560
<v Speaker 1>animals are treated. They open up there will they give

0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:10.080
<v Speaker 1>you a lot of money, They give you a lot

0:23:10.119 --> 0:23:12.239
<v Speaker 1>of money, and I'm wondering if that same with you.

0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:16.760
<v Speaker 1>Do you find people who really are No, we gotta

0:23:16.800 --> 0:23:19.600
<v Speaker 1>work on. I gotta give you a phone couple of

0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:20.119
<v Speaker 1>phone numbers.

0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:23.160
<v Speaker 3>I know one reason. One reason, because I really suck.

0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:25.560
<v Speaker 2>If you put me in a room fundraising, I will

0:23:25.640 --> 0:23:28.600
<v Speaker 2>leave the room giving money to somebody. So my team said, Andrea,

0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:31.280
<v Speaker 2>come at the very end. Okay, But the point is

0:23:32.440 --> 0:23:36.880
<v Speaker 2>it's easier to raise money when you deal with animals directly.

0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:40.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you rescue elephants, you rescue dogs, or you

0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:42.040
<v Speaker 2>rescue baby elephants in Kenya.

0:23:42.200 --> 0:23:44.160
<v Speaker 3>Then you have what they're.

0:23:43.960 --> 0:23:46.000
<v Speaker 2>Buying, so to speak, when they give you the money.

0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:50.760
<v Speaker 2>Is this the emotion of rescuing a creature living creature?

0:23:51.160 --> 0:23:53.119
<v Speaker 2>I mean on the spot, probably right, because you can

0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:54.960
<v Speaker 2>give them money so I know that the elephant is

0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:58.240
<v Speaker 2>safe in our case, they first to I mean the

0:23:58.280 --> 0:24:01.760
<v Speaker 2>business of keeping the animals alive in the wild. In

0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:04.199
<v Speaker 2>terms of visual, for example, I produce a lot of

0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:09.480
<v Speaker 2>undercover footage of bad, bad people trafficking parts. Okay, that's

0:24:09.640 --> 0:24:12.359
<v Speaker 2>it's not that as sexy as Okay, look at this

0:24:12.440 --> 0:24:15.200
<v Speaker 2>baby elephant or look at this. Please help me if

0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:18.399
<v Speaker 2>I always make the joke in Los Angeles if I

0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:20.359
<v Speaker 2>go around with the photo of a baby elf and

0:24:20.400 --> 0:24:23.280
<v Speaker 2>there is millions of dollars in an evening. But if

0:24:23.320 --> 0:24:25.960
<v Speaker 2>I go around like I do, say, actually, we need

0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:29.359
<v Speaker 2>time to work on this network for two years, but

0:24:29.440 --> 0:24:32.760
<v Speaker 2>they're responsible for the killing of thousands of elephants for

0:24:32.840 --> 0:24:35.720
<v Speaker 2>the ivory. But any time, and maybe you will not

0:24:35.960 --> 0:24:39.280
<v Speaker 2>see everything we do because it's dangerous. It's confidentially, so

0:24:39.760 --> 0:24:41.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry. I will share with you so that you

0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:43.760
<v Speaker 2>see where I'm going. So the whole thing is way

0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:47.879
<v Speaker 2>more complicated for us. From our website, you understand, but

0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:50.800
<v Speaker 2>not so much. The only way to understand what we

0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:54.040
<v Speaker 2>do is to it's meeting with me or Mark Davis,

0:24:54.119 --> 0:24:57.159
<v Speaker 2>my right art. Otherwise you will miss most of the

0:24:57.200 --> 0:25:01.760
<v Speaker 2>work that we do. So law enforcement and other professionals

0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:04.000
<v Speaker 2>appreciate a lot what we do because they get it.

0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:06.520
<v Speaker 2>But with the public, it's a whole different story.

0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:10.080
<v Speaker 1>Now this also leads me to you know, I'm in

0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:13.760
<v Speaker 1>rooms with people all over the country. In Washington, New York, LA.

0:25:14.560 --> 0:25:17.679
<v Speaker 1>When Tom Freston ran Paramount Pictures and his wife his

0:25:17.720 --> 0:25:20.520
<v Speaker 1>ex wife Kathy Preston, was a huge and is a

0:25:20.600 --> 0:25:24.639
<v Speaker 1>huge animal rights supporter. This was how we got to

0:25:24.680 --> 0:25:28.199
<v Speaker 1>have the PEEDA fundraiser on the lot of paramount. But

0:25:28.280 --> 0:25:32.320
<v Speaker 1>the idea is for most people, beyond pets, beyond a

0:25:32.359 --> 0:25:35.560
<v Speaker 1>dog or a cated domestic animal, the relationship with all

0:25:35.600 --> 0:25:39.040
<v Speaker 1>other animals is a meal on plates. How do you

0:25:39.200 --> 0:25:42.159
<v Speaker 1>get people who have the money, perhaps, how do you

0:25:42.160 --> 0:25:43.840
<v Speaker 1>get them to care? But what do they give a

0:25:43.880 --> 0:25:45.000
<v Speaker 1>shit about rhino horn?

0:25:45.200 --> 0:25:48.040
<v Speaker 3>Exactly? What do you tell them exactly?

0:25:48.240 --> 0:25:52.280
<v Speaker 2>So my pitch now is that at the level we work,

0:25:52.440 --> 0:25:57.040
<v Speaker 2>we are really talking about industrial scale criminal exploitation of nature.

0:25:57.119 --> 0:25:58.960
<v Speaker 3>So it's destroying the planet.

0:25:59.040 --> 0:26:02.439
<v Speaker 2>It's destroying and entire We have a project now in

0:26:02.480 --> 0:26:06.120
<v Speaker 2>the Amazon on deforestation, land grabbing, and then how they

0:26:06.200 --> 0:26:09.720
<v Speaker 2>use this land for cattle and the meat. So they're

0:26:09.760 --> 0:26:13.840
<v Speaker 2>destroying our planets. So even if you don't care about animals,

0:26:14.400 --> 0:26:18.320
<v Speaker 2>it's important for our future to stop these criminal enterprises.

0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:20.960
<v Speaker 3>And by the way, what they do also has.

0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:24.000
<v Speaker 2>An impact on climate change as well. When destroying the forest,

0:26:24.440 --> 0:26:28.159
<v Speaker 2>when you're emptying the oceans, it will have repercussions also

0:26:28.200 --> 0:26:31.080
<v Speaker 2>on climate change. Unfortunately, climate change, in my opinion, is

0:26:31.080 --> 0:26:35.960
<v Speaker 2>a very self center narrative. It's mostly about us human

0:26:36.040 --> 0:26:39.520
<v Speaker 2>We are afraid. Okay, you're going very rarely. You hear

0:26:39.800 --> 0:26:43.159
<v Speaker 2>what about biodiversity? I mean we are destroying what's that?

0:26:43.280 --> 0:26:43.920
<v Speaker 1>What's that word?

0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:47.400
<v Speaker 3>Anthropocent interpose totally intra percent. You know, we are afraid

0:26:47.440 --> 0:26:50.880
<v Speaker 3>of we are afraid. But that's that's what it is about. Yeah, exactly,

0:26:51.280 --> 0:26:52.320
<v Speaker 3>so I tried.

0:26:52.400 --> 0:26:54.560
<v Speaker 2>For example, we are we've been working on a network

0:26:54.640 --> 0:26:59.120
<v Speaker 2>of track trafficing network in operating between Peru Ecuador. They're

0:26:59.160 --> 0:27:03.199
<v Speaker 2>responsible alone for half a million sharks every year. Okay,

0:27:03.640 --> 0:27:06.760
<v Speaker 2>so before understanding our impact, you have to understand the

0:27:06.800 --> 0:27:09.960
<v Speaker 2>impact of these networks, how they're destroyed, and how it

0:27:10.000 --> 0:27:12.639
<v Speaker 2>is important to stop them. Otherwise the next generation we

0:27:12.720 --> 0:27:15.840
<v Speaker 2>keep talking about, oh hey, let's do our best to

0:27:15.920 --> 0:27:18.200
<v Speaker 2>protect as much as we can, so the next generation

0:27:18.320 --> 0:27:19.879
<v Speaker 2>will find something. Well, I app news for you. If

0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:22.240
<v Speaker 2>you continue like this, they will find nothing. There's nothing

0:27:22.240 --> 0:27:23.919
<v Speaker 2>to protect. Even if they will come up with the

0:27:23.920 --> 0:27:27.960
<v Speaker 2>best possible solution, there will be nothing to protect. So

0:27:28.080 --> 0:27:32.240
<v Speaker 2>most of the species and ecosystem and wild spaces do

0:27:32.400 --> 0:27:34.919
<v Speaker 2>not have the time for a generational change.

0:27:35.800 --> 0:27:36.880
<v Speaker 3>It's now or never.

0:27:38.960 --> 0:27:44.600
<v Speaker 1>Animal activist Andrea Crosta, if you're enjoying this conversation, tell

0:27:44.600 --> 0:27:47.600
<v Speaker 1>a friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing

0:27:48.000 --> 0:27:53.040
<v Speaker 1>on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

0:27:53.520 --> 0:27:58.479
<v Speaker 1>When we come back, Andrea Croster shares his experiences meeting

0:27:58.640 --> 0:28:16.040
<v Speaker 1>wildlife traffickers on the ground. I'm Alec Baldwin and you

0:28:16.080 --> 0:28:19.439
<v Speaker 1>were listening to Here's the Thing. In the early days

0:28:19.480 --> 0:28:23.359
<v Speaker 1>of Earth League International, Andrea Kroster was given a crash

0:28:23.440 --> 0:28:27.720
<v Speaker 1>course in some of the darkest parts of humanity, those

0:28:27.800 --> 0:28:33.000
<v Speaker 1>people willing to hurt vulnerable animals for profit. That knowledge

0:28:33.040 --> 0:28:36.119
<v Speaker 1>came at a price, one which included his marriage at

0:28:36.160 --> 0:28:40.440
<v Speaker 1>the time. Kroster has since rebounded and re partnered.

0:28:41.640 --> 0:28:43.560
<v Speaker 2>That was the early days when I had to go

0:28:43.640 --> 0:28:48.280
<v Speaker 2>through educate myself. So I it took a toll on you.

0:28:48.480 --> 0:28:50.600
<v Speaker 2>Of course, it was a cost for you. It was painful,

0:28:50.960 --> 0:28:53.280
<v Speaker 2>was paid. It would be for anybody. No, and I

0:28:53.400 --> 0:28:56.000
<v Speaker 2>was also probably not prepared. But I had to do

0:28:56.080 --> 0:28:59.240
<v Speaker 2>it because you had to see what you're fighting. And

0:28:59.320 --> 0:29:03.920
<v Speaker 2>so progress at Detroy, my soul at destroy and the

0:29:04.000 --> 0:29:06.720
<v Speaker 2>marriage by the way, and that makes you sick and

0:29:06.800 --> 0:29:09.440
<v Speaker 2>makes you sick. I moved to Los Angeles. I got

0:29:09.440 --> 0:29:12.640
<v Speaker 2>an informa in Los Angeles. I took you know and

0:29:12.680 --> 0:29:16.560
<v Speaker 2>all this while trying to fundraise and work right, and

0:29:16.280 --> 0:29:18.480
<v Speaker 2>and then after the informat it was COVID for two

0:29:18.560 --> 0:29:21.440
<v Speaker 2>three years. So it was just a mess. And I

0:29:21.520 --> 0:29:24.240
<v Speaker 2>never gave up. I never saw okay, that's that's enough.

0:29:24.280 --> 0:29:26.880
<v Speaker 2>Maybe okay the tallest tootle now, I never said that

0:29:26.920 --> 0:29:29.160
<v Speaker 2>we could, you know, with my small team, we continue

0:29:29.200 --> 0:29:32.600
<v Speaker 2>to work throughout well informa throughout the COVID, But on

0:29:32.600 --> 0:29:37.400
<v Speaker 2>a personal level, I was dead broken, broken completely. I

0:29:37.440 --> 0:29:40.520
<v Speaker 2>was just living with my dog Argus in Marianda in

0:29:40.560 --> 0:29:46.560
<v Speaker 2>my apartment. And then that's of course you Argosia from

0:29:46.600 --> 0:29:50.640
<v Speaker 2>from the Olysses, So Argus first and Sophia later.

0:29:50.960 --> 0:29:54.560
<v Speaker 3>Literally you know when you when where did you meet her? Friends?

0:29:54.600 --> 0:29:56.120
<v Speaker 3>In in in Los Angeles?

0:29:56.120 --> 0:29:58.920
<v Speaker 2>And and she has a really she is a nurse

0:29:58.960 --> 0:30:01.160
<v Speaker 2>for you know, for working or children. I see us

0:30:01.200 --> 0:30:05.760
<v Speaker 2>are really you can imagine the grounded, grounded or and

0:30:05.800 --> 0:30:08.840
<v Speaker 2>I needed somebody like this to, you know, to pull

0:30:08.920 --> 0:30:11.760
<v Speaker 2>me up. I was ready to continue with my work,

0:30:12.200 --> 0:30:16.480
<v Speaker 2>but trading off my personal life. You know, when you think, okay,

0:30:16.480 --> 0:30:16.800
<v Speaker 2>I'm going.

0:30:16.800 --> 0:30:18.920
<v Speaker 1>To sacrifice one, you're going to continue, We're.

0:30:18.800 --> 0:30:20.760
<v Speaker 2>Going to continue, going to bust the ass of these people.

0:30:20.840 --> 0:30:22.800
<v Speaker 2>That's what I The reason I'm on this earth is

0:30:22.840 --> 0:30:26.240
<v Speaker 2>to protect the animals and doesn't matter what happens to me.

0:30:27.240 --> 0:30:30.040
<v Speaker 1>Do you think things have changed in the time you've

0:30:30.040 --> 0:30:33.320
<v Speaker 1>done this, Have things gotten better or people's attitudes towards

0:30:33.480 --> 0:30:35.800
<v Speaker 1>I mean to me, the most profound thing, or among

0:30:35.880 --> 0:30:38.920
<v Speaker 1>the many profound things you say, is their understanding of

0:30:39.200 --> 0:30:42.640
<v Speaker 1>the entire ecosystem correct, and that wildlife conservation is a

0:30:42.680 --> 0:30:46.120
<v Speaker 1>part of the ecosystem. Especially with fishing. You see what

0:30:46.200 --> 0:30:47.480
<v Speaker 1>you can take all those fish out of the water.

0:30:47.560 --> 0:30:49.880
<v Speaker 1>What's going to happen? Do you think things are improving?

0:30:51.040 --> 0:30:53.360
<v Speaker 2>Maybe locally here and there. It's all about you know,

0:30:53.840 --> 0:30:56.440
<v Speaker 2>with everything, it's all about people. If the right people

0:30:56.520 --> 0:30:58.480
<v Speaker 2>is doing the right thing in the right place, things

0:30:58.520 --> 0:31:01.440
<v Speaker 2>will change. Globally, I don't think so, And I think

0:31:01.720 --> 0:31:04.360
<v Speaker 2>one of the reasons is because again, environmental protection is

0:31:04.400 --> 0:31:09.320
<v Speaker 2>still not a priority. The climate change movement is ultra

0:31:09.440 --> 0:31:12.520
<v Speaker 2>focus on fossil fuel and this and that, but it's

0:31:12.560 --> 0:31:16.280
<v Speaker 2>not it comprehensive enough, exactly, not comprehensive enough. On the

0:31:16.360 --> 0:31:19.200
<v Speaker 2>other hand, what is moving finally, especially in the US,

0:31:19.440 --> 0:31:22.760
<v Speaker 2>is that the government, government agencies and big law enforcement

0:31:22.760 --> 0:31:27.040
<v Speaker 2>agencies are finally getting what is happening, and they're willing

0:31:27.080 --> 0:31:30.000
<v Speaker 2>to do something about it. But of course the US,

0:31:30.040 --> 0:31:32.160
<v Speaker 2>I mean, what you're going to do, and you know,

0:31:32.160 --> 0:31:34.320
<v Speaker 2>to change things in the Amazon, for example, you need

0:31:34.360 --> 0:31:36.920
<v Speaker 2>the Brazilian government, you need the Columbian government to do something,

0:31:36.960 --> 0:31:37.440
<v Speaker 2>and how.

0:31:38.000 --> 0:31:40.160
<v Speaker 3>How do you do it? I honestly, I don't have

0:31:40.320 --> 0:31:41.040
<v Speaker 3>the answer for that.

0:31:41.160 --> 0:31:43.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean I see myself as you know, running, you

0:31:43.400 --> 0:31:45.560
<v Speaker 2>know the relay run in the Olympics. You know, when

0:31:45.600 --> 0:31:47.680
<v Speaker 2>you run and you pass the baton to somebody else.

0:31:48.040 --> 0:31:48.680
<v Speaker 3>That's my role.

0:31:48.840 --> 0:31:51.480
<v Speaker 2>So I'm running as fast as I can, and I'm

0:31:51.520 --> 0:31:53.000
<v Speaker 2>doing as much as I can, and then I will

0:31:53.040 --> 0:31:57.280
<v Speaker 2>pass the baton to someone else and someone else because

0:31:57.320 --> 0:31:59.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm the more I work now and the more he

0:31:59.800 --> 0:32:04.000
<v Speaker 2>or she will find alive, and then it's her job

0:32:04.080 --> 0:32:05.920
<v Speaker 2>or his job to continue. I don't think I will

0:32:05.920 --> 0:32:07.760
<v Speaker 2>see a change in my life.

0:32:07.920 --> 0:32:11.080
<v Speaker 1>I want you to describe two different people you may

0:32:11.120 --> 0:32:13.520
<v Speaker 1>have met. I'm assuming you have met, and I want

0:32:13.520 --> 0:32:15.480
<v Speaker 1>to start with have you ever met a trafficker? Have

0:32:15.520 --> 0:32:17.320
<v Speaker 1>you ever seen it? Talk to a traffic Yeah? Yeah,

0:32:17.360 --> 0:32:22.640
<v Speaker 1>we described the country, where were you the circumstances? What

0:32:22.720 --> 0:32:23.480
<v Speaker 1>did they tell you?

0:32:24.120 --> 0:32:24.280
<v Speaker 2>Oh?

0:32:24.280 --> 0:32:25.040
<v Speaker 3>It's a long lead.

0:32:25.080 --> 0:32:27.640
<v Speaker 2>I have a long I mean, we can do ten

0:32:27.680 --> 0:32:30.200
<v Speaker 2>different movies just from our stories. It's funny because we

0:32:30.840 --> 0:32:33.480
<v Speaker 2>recently started to produce also on top of our intelligence,

0:32:33.480 --> 0:32:37.160
<v Speaker 2>were also producing profiles, psychological profiles of the traffickers to

0:32:37.280 --> 0:32:40.560
<v Speaker 2>help law enforcement and agencies to understand who is this

0:32:40.720 --> 0:32:44.640
<v Speaker 2>who this guy. The big difference is that on top

0:32:44.720 --> 0:32:49.440
<v Speaker 2>of environmental criminal networks and trafficking networks, unlike narco trafficking,

0:32:49.720 --> 0:32:52.600
<v Speaker 2>they are businessmen. So first of all, they're business and

0:32:52.640 --> 0:32:54.760
<v Speaker 2>they do a lot of criminal stuff, but they're business.

0:32:54.800 --> 0:32:56.920
<v Speaker 2>They make a lot of money also from legal stuff.

0:32:57.080 --> 0:32:59.800
<v Speaker 2>Actually they are masters in overlapping legal and illegal. So

0:32:59.800 --> 0:33:04.600
<v Speaker 2>they have import, export, supermarket, restaurants, all kinds of businesses,

0:33:04.640 --> 0:33:07.240
<v Speaker 2>real estate, and on top of it, they also do

0:33:07.600 --> 0:33:10.480
<v Speaker 2>all kinds of trafficking and also not only I mean

0:33:10.480 --> 0:33:14.080
<v Speaker 2>we're not talking about again, while trafficing, illegal log illegal fishing,

0:33:14.160 --> 0:33:16.120
<v Speaker 2>illegal mining is a big thing as well.

0:33:16.600 --> 0:33:19.080
<v Speaker 3>Some of them are I would say, funny people.

0:33:19.160 --> 0:33:21.320
<v Speaker 2>I having a couple of them in mind, and every

0:33:21.360 --> 0:33:24.000
<v Speaker 2>time my mind, the COVID team comes back home and

0:33:24.040 --> 0:33:26.080
<v Speaker 2>we do the debrief and we discuss what they did.

0:33:26.080 --> 0:33:28.800
<v Speaker 2>They also they always say this guy are funny. They

0:33:28.840 --> 0:33:31.440
<v Speaker 2>know how to live. They have no clue what they're doing,

0:33:31.480 --> 0:33:33.800
<v Speaker 2>I mean the destruction that they don't care about it.

0:33:34.160 --> 0:33:35.640
<v Speaker 3>They are usually very rich.

0:33:36.520 --> 0:33:40.800
<v Speaker 2>They have ties with hundred percent criminal organizations and narco

0:33:40.880 --> 0:33:43.960
<v Speaker 2>trafficking for example, and they are really really good in

0:33:44.520 --> 0:33:49.760
<v Speaker 2>doing certain things without doing too much. For example, a

0:33:49.800 --> 0:33:52.480
<v Speaker 2>lot of the traffickers we have been investigating in the

0:33:52.480 --> 0:33:56.320
<v Speaker 2>past few years, they lounder the money for organized crime

0:33:56.360 --> 0:33:59.240
<v Speaker 2>and arco traffickers. They will never do drugs themselves, but

0:33:59.320 --> 0:34:02.560
<v Speaker 2>they are really good in laundering the money. And organized

0:34:02.560 --> 0:34:05.440
<v Speaker 2>crime and arco trafficing organization have the need of a

0:34:05.440 --> 0:34:08.000
<v Speaker 2>big they have to lounder a lot of money, a

0:34:08.080 --> 0:34:10.520
<v Speaker 2>lot of cash. They sit on cash in the US

0:34:10.560 --> 0:34:12.360
<v Speaker 2>as well, right, they don't know what to do with

0:34:12.400 --> 0:34:14.600
<v Speaker 2>all this cash. They're really good in doing that, so

0:34:14.719 --> 0:34:19.399
<v Speaker 2>they mix. They constantly mixed cousins. Absolutely, yeah, and that's

0:34:19.440 --> 0:34:23.080
<v Speaker 2>the same family. Absolutely, And that's the opportunity actually, because

0:34:23.600 --> 0:34:27.920
<v Speaker 2>while environmental crime and while trafficking and illegal logging whatever,

0:34:28.520 --> 0:34:30.880
<v Speaker 2>it has a lot of similarities with narco trafficking, with

0:34:31.040 --> 0:34:34.879
<v Speaker 2>one very important difference. At the top of an arco

0:34:34.920 --> 0:34:38.560
<v Speaker 2>trafficking organization, you have a big narcos, a big trafficker,

0:34:38.600 --> 0:34:41.279
<v Speaker 2>and you have zero average on this person. You kill

0:34:41.320 --> 0:34:44.640
<v Speaker 2>him or jailim. It's not you cannot do anything else.

0:34:44.760 --> 0:34:46.440
<v Speaker 2>And if you kill him somebody else, we can't part

0:34:46.640 --> 0:34:50.160
<v Speaker 2>with him. On the top of who runs the show,

0:34:50.680 --> 0:34:53.480
<v Speaker 2>environmental crime, the trafficking, they are businessmen. They make a

0:34:53.520 --> 0:34:56.239
<v Speaker 2>lot of money also from legal businesses. So my job

0:34:56.640 --> 0:34:59.600
<v Speaker 2>is to raise their cost of business, going after them

0:34:59.600 --> 0:35:02.319
<v Speaker 2>in a way there were nobody else, nobody ever, you know,

0:35:02.360 --> 0:35:04.880
<v Speaker 2>went after them like that, raise the cost of business,

0:35:04.960 --> 0:35:08.000
<v Speaker 2>arrest a bunch of them, and eventually hopefully push them

0:35:08.160 --> 0:35:08.520
<v Speaker 2>out of it.

0:35:08.520 --> 0:35:09.799
<v Speaker 1>They don't want to but they don't want to go

0:35:09.800 --> 0:35:12.279
<v Speaker 1>to prison. Of course. People on the narco trafficking, then

0:35:12.360 --> 0:35:14.680
<v Speaker 1>they assume either they're going to pay off the cops

0:35:15.000 --> 0:35:17.400
<v Speaker 1>they shoot their way exactly. But eventually they realized they

0:35:17.480 --> 0:35:18.799
<v Speaker 1>might go to prison exactly.

0:35:18.560 --> 0:35:21.280
<v Speaker 3>And they know they know right, but not these people.

0:35:22.520 --> 0:35:24.040
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to go to the prison, of course,

0:35:24.120 --> 0:35:26.480
<v Speaker 2>so Mike, no, So I'm trying to change the game

0:35:26.520 --> 0:35:29.000
<v Speaker 2>in this way. Forget about the ports, forget about the

0:35:29.040 --> 0:35:31.960
<v Speaker 2>little little fish, go after these people, show them that

0:35:32.000 --> 0:35:34.400
<v Speaker 2>they are not ghosts anymore. Because these people are ghosts

0:35:34.520 --> 0:35:36.319
<v Speaker 2>are no names, no face. My job is to give

0:35:36.320 --> 0:35:38.839
<v Speaker 2>a face and a name to ghost, and to do

0:35:38.880 --> 0:35:41.800
<v Speaker 2>that I use my ghost. Okay, so it's a battle

0:35:41.800 --> 0:35:44.120
<v Speaker 2>between ghosts. But the end game is at the end

0:35:44.160 --> 0:35:46.160
<v Speaker 2>this guy will have a name, will have a face,

0:35:46.520 --> 0:35:49.680
<v Speaker 2>and usually we provide intelligence about these people with you.

0:35:49.680 --> 0:35:52.160
<v Speaker 2>You had to understand you our reports are maybe you

0:35:52.160 --> 0:35:57.080
<v Speaker 2>will find fifty pages of intelligence about one single person.

0:35:57.160 --> 0:36:00.760
<v Speaker 2>So imagine how much you can do as law enforcement

0:36:01.200 --> 0:36:03.080
<v Speaker 2>agency about this person if you want to.

0:36:03.360 --> 0:36:06.880
<v Speaker 1>You know John Hume, the character movie Trophy. In the

0:36:06.880 --> 0:36:08.839
<v Speaker 1>movie Trophy, what did you think about that argument where

0:36:08.840 --> 0:36:11.120
<v Speaker 1>he says, I've got to we have to kill some

0:36:11.200 --> 0:36:13.600
<v Speaker 1>of these animals, and we have to let people come

0:36:13.600 --> 0:36:15.759
<v Speaker 1>here and shoot some of these animals so I can

0:36:15.840 --> 0:36:19.719
<v Speaker 1>monetize the product to save the animals. I don't have

0:36:19.760 --> 0:36:20.840
<v Speaker 1>any budget. What do you think of that?

0:36:21.400 --> 0:36:25.359
<v Speaker 3>So I know stuff about him that I cannot share here, just.

0:36:25.239 --> 0:36:28.399
<v Speaker 1>To begin, I would imagine, but he it.

0:36:28.320 --> 0:36:29.600
<v Speaker 3>Wasn't the news a few days ago.

0:36:29.719 --> 0:36:33.399
<v Speaker 2>He recently managed finally to sell his property, the whole

0:36:33.400 --> 0:36:35.960
<v Speaker 2>property thing, with all the rhinos included.

0:36:36.600 --> 0:36:38.680
<v Speaker 1>And he has a huge vault of horn.

0:36:38.560 --> 0:36:41.359
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, So apparently when I heard the news, because he's

0:36:41.360 --> 0:36:43.960
<v Speaker 2>selling this this I don't know how many rhinos I think,

0:36:44.480 --> 0:36:47.239
<v Speaker 2>I don't know to Angil. Actually it's a big one

0:36:47.239 --> 0:36:51.160
<v Speaker 2>of the largest environmental organization in the world to African parks.

0:36:51.400 --> 0:36:53.279
<v Speaker 2>So they take in it and they it's a great

0:36:53.360 --> 0:36:56.520
<v Speaker 2>It's a strange idea, but okay, I can see the point.

0:36:56.760 --> 0:36:59.560
<v Speaker 2>And when I when someone asked me, you know, in

0:36:59.600 --> 0:37:02.680
<v Speaker 2>an interview, my reaction, the first thing I said was,

0:37:03.440 --> 0:37:07.000
<v Speaker 2>is he allowed to keep this stockpile because.

0:37:06.800 --> 0:37:09.799
<v Speaker 3>He's sitting on hundreds of millions.

0:37:09.480 --> 0:37:12.640
<v Speaker 1>Of dollars of horns But there's a band on horns still.

0:37:12.800 --> 0:37:15.640
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely apparently apparently, I don't know, if it's true, he will,

0:37:15.840 --> 0:37:18.920
<v Speaker 2>he will be forced to destroy it. But because of course,

0:37:19.200 --> 0:37:22.120
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know, you cannot. I'm completely against the

0:37:22.880 --> 0:37:25.680
<v Speaker 2>legal trade of this, of ivory or rhino.

0:37:25.880 --> 0:37:27.120
<v Speaker 3>You just fuel the demand.

0:37:27.120 --> 0:37:30.840
<v Speaker 2>And again, let's not forget we are dealing with Asia,

0:37:30.960 --> 0:37:32.480
<v Speaker 2>so two three billion people.

0:37:32.840 --> 0:37:34.319
<v Speaker 3>You don't want to fuel the demand.

0:37:34.040 --> 0:37:39.920
<v Speaker 2>Of anything with exactly it's not Rhode Island, okay, it's Asia, Okay.

0:37:40.280 --> 0:37:43.360
<v Speaker 2>So so yeah, it's an interesting story. And he for

0:37:43.680 --> 0:37:46.239
<v Speaker 2>mister Hume, for many years kept saying Okay, we have

0:37:46.320 --> 0:37:50.080
<v Speaker 2>to sell Rhino a bit of fuel horns to sustain

0:37:50.160 --> 0:37:53.359
<v Speaker 2>the expenses. And I was always against absolutely.

0:37:53.480 --> 0:37:55.640
<v Speaker 1>Someone you worked with and they don't have to be

0:37:55.680 --> 0:37:58.160
<v Speaker 1>somebody who put their lives at risk. But I'm obviously

0:37:58.360 --> 0:38:00.920
<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking along those lines. Someone you work with, who

0:38:00.960 --> 0:38:03.399
<v Speaker 1>you really admired, someone you worked with you thought, my god,

0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:06.520
<v Speaker 1>this person like yourself. They're really committed to the scores

0:38:06.520 --> 0:38:10.560
<v Speaker 1>and they're willing to risk almost anything to follow through. Well.

0:38:10.640 --> 0:38:13.920
<v Speaker 2>One of my is our chief investigator, the head of

0:38:13.960 --> 0:38:19.279
<v Speaker 2>our UNDERCOVID team, is incredible and he does things that,

0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:22.319
<v Speaker 2>in my opinion, nobody else in the world can do.

0:38:23.360 --> 0:38:24.960
<v Speaker 1>And he's not out of it in the press. He

0:38:25.040 --> 0:38:26.799
<v Speaker 1>is still is.

0:38:26.760 --> 0:38:30.680
<v Speaker 2>Not American, and he does He's able to with his

0:38:30.760 --> 0:38:32.880
<v Speaker 2>team and also our guidance because there's a lot of

0:38:32.920 --> 0:38:35.719
<v Speaker 2>preparation before the mission, you know, we try to improvise

0:38:35.760 --> 0:38:41.040
<v Speaker 2>as lot as possible. He's able to really become good

0:38:41.160 --> 0:38:44.360
<v Speaker 2>friend of the worst possible people that you can imagine

0:38:44.400 --> 0:38:48.400
<v Speaker 2>on the planet and then get the kind of information

0:38:48.560 --> 0:38:51.640
<v Speaker 2>that not even the government can get from these people.

0:38:52.360 --> 0:38:55.920
<v Speaker 2>And I'm really proud of my team. I always say

0:38:55.960 --> 0:38:58.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm just I mean Most of the work is my team,

0:38:58.280 --> 0:39:01.960
<v Speaker 2>the undercover guys, the analysts, the people in the field.

0:39:02.000 --> 0:39:04.240
<v Speaker 3>So I coordinated the whole thing. I had the idea.

0:39:04.280 --> 0:39:04.880
<v Speaker 1>But they do that.

0:39:05.080 --> 0:39:07.279
<v Speaker 3>They have to be praised, not really mean.

0:39:07.360 --> 0:39:09.200
<v Speaker 2>I can tell you a little story just to tell

0:39:09.239 --> 0:39:12.719
<v Speaker 2>you how sometimes the value of why is important to

0:39:12.719 --> 0:39:13.680
<v Speaker 2>become their friends.

0:39:14.200 --> 0:39:15.120
<v Speaker 3>Friends of these people.

0:39:15.480 --> 0:39:17.640
<v Speaker 2>We work for more than a year in a Latin

0:39:17.680 --> 0:39:21.440
<v Speaker 2>American country on jaguar trafficking, so that they traffic parts

0:39:21.480 --> 0:39:23.640
<v Speaker 2>of jaguar, mostly.

0:39:25.239 --> 0:39:25.840
<v Speaker 1>South America.

0:39:26.080 --> 0:39:28.759
<v Speaker 2>In Brazil is Pantanalia, but they do it in Colombia

0:39:28.880 --> 0:39:32.080
<v Speaker 2>and Bolivia and Peru and Ecuadora and Surina everywhere, and

0:39:32.120 --> 0:39:38.000
<v Speaker 2>then they ship bones and fangs to Asia because with fangs,

0:39:38.040 --> 0:39:40.800
<v Speaker 2>they like to have fangs, you know, like jewelry and bones.

0:39:40.840 --> 0:39:42.560
<v Speaker 3>They actually do like they do with tiger.

0:39:42.680 --> 0:39:45.719
<v Speaker 2>They actually jaguar bones in Asia is then sold as

0:39:45.840 --> 0:39:49.200
<v Speaker 2>tiger and they do bone wine tiger bone wine to

0:39:49.600 --> 0:39:52.360
<v Speaker 2>enhance your you know, sexuality and stuff like that. But

0:39:52.920 --> 0:39:56.040
<v Speaker 2>they're destroying entire population of jaguars and Latin America. So

0:39:56.080 --> 0:39:59.560
<v Speaker 2>we help a local public prosecutor in Latin America to

0:39:59.719 --> 0:40:02.759
<v Speaker 2>a as the five most important jaguar traffickers in the

0:40:02.840 --> 0:40:05.640
<v Speaker 2>country and we did it very successful.

0:40:05.640 --> 0:40:07.879
<v Speaker 3>We also published something. Then we went back to.

0:40:07.840 --> 0:40:12.000
<v Speaker 2>The same country six months later last year to see

0:40:12.320 --> 0:40:14.799
<v Speaker 2>you know what happened. So the good news is that

0:40:15.360 --> 0:40:20.000
<v Speaker 2>everyone else stopped buying Jaguar, which is exactly my point.

0:40:20.480 --> 0:40:24.279
<v Speaker 2>If you scare them, they will stop, unlike narcle traffickers.

0:40:24.400 --> 0:40:27.080
<v Speaker 2>Believe me, if it's all about the right pressure points.

0:40:27.120 --> 0:40:29.160
<v Speaker 2>If you identify the right pressure point and then you

0:40:29.160 --> 0:40:32.760
<v Speaker 2>have fly pressure, they have fear, they stop. The funny

0:40:32.760 --> 0:40:34.640
<v Speaker 2>thing is that you're out of a movie.

0:40:34.880 --> 0:40:35.760
<v Speaker 3>Believe me. Is true.

0:40:35.920 --> 0:40:40.200
<v Speaker 2>While we were meeting these traffickers, one of them received

0:40:40.480 --> 0:40:43.400
<v Speaker 2>first and SMS and then a call from a policeman

0:40:43.960 --> 0:40:48.560
<v Speaker 2>alerting them about us because they knew but they didn't

0:40:48.560 --> 0:40:51.279
<v Speaker 2>know exactly who we were. So this guy and we

0:40:51.280 --> 0:40:53.839
<v Speaker 2>were filming everything right away in the same time, so

0:40:54.200 --> 0:40:56.160
<v Speaker 2>filming up the cover of course. So this guy the

0:40:56.200 --> 0:41:00.920
<v Speaker 2>traffickers was telling my guy about us without knowing it

0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:01.440
<v Speaker 2>was us.

0:41:01.640 --> 0:41:05.240
<v Speaker 1>Right do you think AI? I mean, AI has become

0:41:05.239 --> 0:41:09.400
<v Speaker 1>a huge watchword in my business, was replaced by AI.

0:41:10.040 --> 0:41:11.640
<v Speaker 1>AI can help you in the work.

0:41:11.480 --> 0:41:14.880
<v Speaker 2>You do eventually, probably, yeah, I mean in terms of

0:41:15.200 --> 0:41:19.279
<v Speaker 2>finding connection when you have a lot of data, and you.

0:41:19.160 --> 0:41:19.880
<v Speaker 3>Have a lot of forks.

0:41:19.920 --> 0:41:22.440
<v Speaker 2>Imagine you have a lot of names and address and

0:41:22.480 --> 0:41:25.799
<v Speaker 2>telephone numbers and emails and reach out accounts and all

0:41:25.880 --> 0:41:28.400
<v Speaker 2>kinds of names, all kinds of alienses, all kinds of stuff.

0:41:29.000 --> 0:41:30.680
<v Speaker 3>I think, Yes, the problem is.

0:41:30.640 --> 0:41:33.319
<v Speaker 2>That all this information you should we should you know,

0:41:33.400 --> 0:41:36.240
<v Speaker 2>there should be one repository, one database with all this information,

0:41:36.520 --> 0:41:40.160
<v Speaker 2>or find a way to in this. Yeah, but I

0:41:40.200 --> 0:41:43.320
<v Speaker 2>want to say, you know, because every time people coming

0:41:43.400 --> 0:41:45.719
<v Speaker 2>up with all kinds of technologies and try to help us,

0:41:46.200 --> 0:41:49.880
<v Speaker 2>and what I answer is yes, but first of all,

0:41:50.000 --> 0:41:53.080
<v Speaker 2>you need human intelligence that only people can do. You

0:41:53.120 --> 0:41:55.520
<v Speaker 2>have to go there, get dirty, go in the middle

0:41:55.560 --> 0:41:59.960
<v Speaker 2>of nowhere, meet these people, understand these people. Okay, intelligence

0:42:00.120 --> 0:42:03.520
<v Speaker 2>come from the Latin intelligure. It doesn't mean to know,

0:42:03.600 --> 0:42:06.920
<v Speaker 2>it means to understand. And if you don't understand, you

0:42:06.920 --> 0:42:08.839
<v Speaker 2>will never have the right tools to fight back.

0:42:09.440 --> 0:42:12.680
<v Speaker 1>Now, in my travels around the world, many places of world,

0:42:12.840 --> 0:42:15.239
<v Speaker 1>no one knows how to relax and enjoy life and

0:42:15.760 --> 0:42:18.120
<v Speaker 1>and and get the most out of like the Italians.

0:42:18.840 --> 0:42:22.480
<v Speaker 3>And you are an Italian and American recently.

0:42:22.680 --> 0:42:25.640
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so you're an Italian American, but you are Italian, yeah,

0:42:25.640 --> 0:42:28.440
<v Speaker 1>by birth, and I'm wondering, do you ever get to

0:42:28.520 --> 0:42:32.799
<v Speaker 1>unplug and live like Italians do and enjoy yourself or

0:42:32.840 --> 0:42:35.720
<v Speaker 1>you always plugged in. I'm a bad example of bad Italian.

0:42:35.880 --> 0:42:38.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm an Argus and Sofia again are helping me a

0:42:38.480 --> 0:42:43.600
<v Speaker 2>lot to unplug. And it's so so important because if

0:42:43.600 --> 0:42:45.520
<v Speaker 2>you break, everything breaks.

0:42:45.280 --> 0:42:47.880
<v Speaker 1>Down with you, right, you put a lot of pressure.

0:42:47.920 --> 0:42:50.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. But on the other hand, I think Italians have

0:42:50.360 --> 0:42:52.919
<v Speaker 2>in their DNA we know how to enjoy ourselves.

0:42:53.200 --> 0:42:54.760
<v Speaker 1>So what do you do when you want to unplug?

0:42:55.520 --> 0:42:59.120
<v Speaker 2>I usually hike on the Santa Monica Mountains with Argus

0:42:59.160 --> 0:43:00.680
<v Speaker 2>and Sofia or on the beach.

0:43:00.840 --> 0:43:01.719
<v Speaker 3>That's it. I love.

0:43:01.800 --> 0:43:04.600
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm a big, big lover of the Pacific

0:43:04.600 --> 0:43:07.840
<v Speaker 2>Northwest and Rocky Mountains, so whenever is possible, I go

0:43:07.920 --> 0:43:09.920
<v Speaker 2>there and just disappear for a while.

0:43:10.160 --> 0:43:11.520
<v Speaker 1>If I want to wish you the best of luck,

0:43:11.560 --> 0:43:14.360
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I've read this article and I'm so admiring

0:43:14.400 --> 0:43:17.759
<v Speaker 1>of what you do, because you really are fighting what

0:43:17.920 --> 0:43:20.640
<v Speaker 1>I think it's one of the great battles to bring

0:43:20.760 --> 0:43:25.439
<v Speaker 1>to people the understanding that these environmental crimes all are

0:43:25.480 --> 0:43:33.520
<v Speaker 1>of one. Thank you, Andrea Crosta. This episode was recorded

0:43:33.840 --> 0:43:37.520
<v Speaker 1>at CDM Studios in New York City. We're produced by

0:43:37.560 --> 0:43:41.680
<v Speaker 1>Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is

0:43:41.719 --> 0:43:46.359
<v Speaker 1>Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm

0:43:46.400 --> 0:43:48.719
<v Speaker 1>Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing that is brought to you

0:43:48.800 --> 0:44:04.920
<v Speaker 1>by iHeart Radio. The company can make the company