1 00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:10,639 Speaker 1: the Thing from My Heart Radio. The statistics are staggering. 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: Up to a million plant and animal species are expected 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: to vanish by the year twenty fifty, and we've experienced 5 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: an almost seventy percent decline in wildlife since nineteen seventy alone. 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: My guest today, Andrea Crosta is the founder of Earth 7 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:34,639 Speaker 1: League International, a nonprofit organization whose objective is to protect 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: our oceans, forests, and wildlife through research and investigation. It's 9 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: an intelligence agency like the CIA, but for earth. The 10 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: organization has helped crack down on wildlife trafficking, from a 11 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: cartel moving sea cucumbers in Mexico to a jaguar fang 12 00:00:55,160 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: ring in Bolivia. The dangerous work of infiltrating the organized 13 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: crime units was recently profiled in the New Yorker article 14 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: entitled Earth League International Hunts the Hunters. The path to 15 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,559 Speaker 1: Andrea Crosto's calling has been a long and winding road. 16 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: Prior to his work as head of EIL, he held 17 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: various positions in security and animal activism before starting the 18 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: online shopping company Think Italy in his native country. 19 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 2: I Think Italy was we're talking about ninety seven ninety 20 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 2: eight was the prehistory of shopping online in Italy. So 21 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 2: there was the second e commerce website ever in Italy 22 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 2: with Microsoft was the first Casey history of Microsoft in 23 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 2: Italy free shopping. And I went all the way up, 24 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 2: and then when the Nazda crashed in two thousand and one, 25 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 2: I went all the way down and I sold the 26 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 2: full debts basically, but it was like an Amazon type 27 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 2: of time. Yeah yeah, yeah, back in the I mean 28 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 2: ninety eight we were talking really about it. But Dawn 29 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 2: and you would not believe how many people in ninety 30 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 2: eight told me e commerce. 31 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 3: I don't think it's the thing. 32 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 2: No, never work, You're an idiot and says, okay whatever. 33 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 2: But then when I then sold Think Italy, I was 34 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 2: already into business and I did another master degree in 35 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 2: business administration. My first one was conservation zoology and actually 36 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 2: that my love was always there. And then I started 37 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 2: to work as a business consultant for those companies that 38 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 2: was pre snowed and those companies who that produce technologies 39 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 2: for spying basically who taught you that I was just 40 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 2: doing the business part, so I was just no, I 41 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 2: was help selling stuff to spies, but not me. But 42 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 2: I got in contact with a lot of them, of course. 43 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: But I see you go from animal rights activists to businessman, 44 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: security consultant, and then it says he occasionally trained park. 45 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 2: Rangers, correct, and that trained you. My job was to 46 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 2: find people to train them. So I was always you know. 47 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: In the train them in terms of but not with 48 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: weaponry as well. Oh really yeah, until trained you, nobody 49 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: I was. 50 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 3: My job was just okay, let's find the great trainer 51 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:11,359 Speaker 3: or you would. 52 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: Have especially the man yeah, exactly doing the train. 53 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: And I was going down in the middle of nowhere 54 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 2: in Kenya when the Kenye Wildlife Service has a sort 55 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 2: of a shooting range and the training center, and we 56 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 2: were there for two weeks, three weeks trying to help 57 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 2: these rangers too. 58 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:27,679 Speaker 3: That was was twenty ten. 59 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 2: We were right in the middle of the elephant poaching 60 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: crisis and we were losing twenty five. 61 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: Where's the training center, what part of the. 62 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 3: It's near Sao National So when. 63 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: You're there, those rangers are under what flag? Meaning they 64 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: were service Keny that's the National wild to protect all cares. 65 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they were very undertrained there in their whip 66 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 2: you know they were. 67 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: I think that the wealth of Kenya interns. 68 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 2: I know that they didn't some of them didn't have shoes, 69 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 2: I mean really really, and they were up to train poachers. 70 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: And they couldn't pay them very much. No, not very much. 71 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. We thought, okay, let's that was the beginning. 72 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: And that I and this is when you know, the 73 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: will started to in my head said, okay, wait a second. 74 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 2: I went out many times with them. I witnessed those terribles, 75 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 2: you know, seeing that you can imagine, you know, an 76 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 2: entire family of elephants Gonne down with Ak forty seven 77 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 2: and and I could see almost you know when you're 78 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: see in comics like a question mark on the head 79 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 2: of the Rangers. And back then the whole world international 80 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 2: community was asking them, the Rangers. 81 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 3: To solve the problem. And I thought, that's unfair. 82 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, elephant poaching and ivory trafficking is 83 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: like you can it's under environmental crime. We're talking about 84 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 2: the fourth largest criminal enterprise in the world, up more 85 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 2: than two hundred billions of dollars every year, and you're 86 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: asking the Rangers to solve the problem. It's like asking 87 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 2: for exactly so It's like it's like asking your you know, 88 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,799 Speaker 2: the La County sheriff to solve narco trafficking. 89 00:04:58,960 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 3: It's not their job. 90 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 2: So because of my past and here we come to 91 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 2: you know, the circle is because of my past and 92 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 2: working with intelligence agency. I asked, okay, but who is 93 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 2: using professional intelligence. I'm talking about CIA kind of intelligence 94 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 2: to fight back because the problem is not the poachers, 95 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 2: is the traffickers in international traffickers, trafficking networks, organized crime. 96 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 2: And the answer was nobody. And so I said, okay, 97 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 2: I'm going to do it. I mean, I didn't know 98 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: how difficult it would would be big, but I said, okay, 99 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 2: So I stopped what I was doing. Back then, I 100 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 2: was in Kenya. My job was a security consultant again, 101 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: hiring the right people for the former Prime Minister of 102 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 2: Somalia who had huge security problems with the terrorist group 103 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 2: al Shabab. You know, that was the time when al 104 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 2: Shabab controlled all Somalia and also part of Kenya. So 105 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 2: this guy had and I was there for this reason, 106 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 2: and I said, okay, I think it's time to go 107 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 2: back to my roots today. And I was born with 108 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 2: this huge love for animals and for wild life and 109 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 2: this huge desire to protect them. 110 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 3: And I said, how I'm going to do it. 111 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to create the first intelligence agency for 112 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 2: the first CIA for the planet. And I start looking 113 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 2: for the right people because it's not easy, of course, 114 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 2: form a CIA from FBI crime analyst under separators to point. 115 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 2: The selling point was, I remember to Mark Davis is 116 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 2: my right hand right now, twenty eight years with the FBI, 117 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 2: one of the most successful undercover agents in the history 118 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: of the FBI. We're actually doing a documentary about him. 119 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 2: And I told him, listen, Mark, you were under cover 120 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 2: with Chapon, Escobar, Russia mafia, Italian mafia, pedophile, corrupt government official. 121 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: I have the biggest, most important war you ever fought 122 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 2: in your life, and it's the war for Earth. And 123 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: that's it was sold. It's instantaneously. 124 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. 125 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 2: And he is best San Diego and he's an incredible person. 126 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 2: You can imagine twenty eight years with and the agency 127 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 2: as well. 128 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: And what did you tell him that you wanted him 129 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: to do? You wanted him to do what. 130 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 2: The task was to build, to build a brand new 131 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: organization with former CIA FBI. 132 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: What budget? 133 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 2: Now I have the budget, but back back then I 134 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 2: was I was really crazy. I mean I was, and 135 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 2: he marked to his credit he has been working for me, 136 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 2: for us for many years. We started to pay him 137 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: this year. Okay, this is extraordinary. 138 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: People. 139 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 2: So they volunteered, volunteer, some of them absolutely him first 140 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 2: of all. So and so slowly we started to create 141 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 2: this mini Meani Intelligence Agency with the task. The objective 142 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: is to investigate and collect intelligence at the highest possible 143 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 2: level from these international trafficking networks. And when you go 144 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: so high in the network as not environmental crime anymore, 145 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 2: there is a lot of what is called crime convergence, 146 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 2: so the convergence of environmental crimes with other serious crimes, 147 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 2: money laundering, human smuggling, human trafficking, arco traffic, same people, 148 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 2: same networks. 149 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 3: They can offer you. 150 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 2: Same infrastructure, same infrastructure, same people to bribe and during 151 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: a meeting, they can offer you three tons of shark fins, 152 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: three under jaguar fanks, two tons of ivory. But I 153 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 2: also I also smuggled exactly exactly, and that's what was 154 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 2: till now, that was the layer of the problem, completely 155 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 2: misunderstood actually unknown also by law enforcement. And that's why 156 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,160 Speaker 2: it's precious what we do because we're we have under 157 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 2: COVID teams who are that are in the field. 158 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 3: Get you know, the. 159 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 2: Kind of work we do is a sort of sophisticated 160 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 2: social engineering work. In other words, we are really good 161 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 2: in becoming your friend. And when we are friends, you 162 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: are gonna tell me everything I need to know of 163 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:51,719 Speaker 2: the time. 164 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: And why do you think I'm going to get to 165 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: that in terms of your methodology, because I have read 166 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 1: that in the article. That was a great article. So 167 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: how do you get them to talk? How do you 168 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: get them to trust? 169 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 3: Your trust? 170 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 2: That's the magic world, and so you have to take 171 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 2: your time to establish trust with these people. 172 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: Give me an example of someone you're after, why and 173 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: what do you do? What do you say to him 174 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: or her? 175 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: So, first of all, there's work done before through our 176 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:21,599 Speaker 2: content because we operate like a small agency, so we 177 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 2: are crude sources and informants on the ground, doesn't matter 178 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 2: where Colombia, South Africa, Mexico doesn't matter. And they tell 179 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 2: us who are the big players, and then we send 180 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 2: another team and their team is to become their friends. 181 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 2: So they introduce themselves as businessmen, as potential traffickers. We 182 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 2: never do anything illegal. We never buy anything illegal, which 183 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 2: is really good in listening. We also use a lot 184 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 2: of under COVID devices to capture videos and conversations, so 185 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 2: we produce a ton of intelligence and over a period 186 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 2: of time, their job is to become their friends. And 187 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: so they these people, the targets, the traffickers. They have 188 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 2: to see in our people a potential gain and put 189 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 2: potential money down the road. Okay, so we have to play. 190 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 2: It's like acting for these people pretty much. And until 191 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 2: you get to a point where there is trust, there 192 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 2: is friendship. So they invite you, Hey, when are you 193 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 2: coming back again to Columbia? When are you coming back 194 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 2: again to Thailand? Because we have I have have these 195 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 2: have that are you in. They want to do business, 196 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 2: They want to do business. You lead them to you 197 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 2: lead them to believe you're there to do business or 198 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 2: or even better not me business, but I know somebody 199 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 2: because this money. Yeah, and this allows us to stretch 200 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 2: it even more because the point is to spend with 201 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 2: them as much time as possible. Right, So if you 202 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 2: say I'm the buy exactly, if I'm the buyer, okay, 203 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 2: how many time you want to meet them with exactly? 204 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 2: So it's no my boss is in here, isn't there? 205 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 2: And so with that we sometimes stay with them two 206 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 2: three years, so dangling, and they invite us to family 207 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 2: events wedding, birthday, and we go there and we film 208 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 2: and record everything and everything is then passed to our 209 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 2: crime analyst who receives like an incredible amount of information. 210 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 2: And that's the second part, very interesting, so data processing 211 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 2: and they understand figured out what we get. 212 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 3: But that's this is how we work. 213 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: And I'm seeing a movie now. Oh yeah, I'm seeing 214 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: a movie now where like The Godfather, you're at the 215 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 1: airport and all the containers are filled with rhino horn 216 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: and the cops come to bust the guy that you've 217 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 1: been soliciting for two years and he's in shock because 218 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: he thought you and he were best friends, and you 219 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: just kiss him on the mouth of Francesco. I am 220 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: so sorry, and he just take it up. He goes 221 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: to prison for twenty years and you've been working on 222 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: this case for a while. 223 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And what happens with the exception is that we 224 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:50,199 Speaker 2: usually disappear a little before the arrest or the action, 225 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 2: and best case scenario is when the bad guys do 226 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 2: not understand what went wrong, Okay, well, I don't even 227 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 2: think you're to blame exactly, and we were so. 228 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,079 Speaker 1: Operating in that sphere with us. 229 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 3: Exactly, wise it will be over right. 230 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: So, of course, as you can imagine, our field operators, 231 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 2: their identity is confidential even within our organization. There are 232 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 2: no pictures of them, and of course it's it's a 233 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 2: very delicate job they do. 234 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: Of course, are you Are you concerned since the article 235 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: came out now that people know who you are? 236 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 3: No about me, not really, I mean that ship. You're 237 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:29,319 Speaker 3: not the sale already. 238 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: I mean you're not the face of a lot of 239 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: these operations. 240 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 3: You never No, I cannot be people who you've. 241 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: Trained and who work for you there the operative. 242 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 3: Absolutely No. 243 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 2: My job is when we have enough information is to 244 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: engage government agency and local enforcement, including in the US, 245 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 2: and say hey, we have this information, we have this intelligence. 246 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 3: I think it's interesting. 247 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 2: And the beauty of crime convergence, or the convergence without 248 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 2: a serious crime, is that if you approach like it 249 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 2: happened in a US law enforcement agency, a big one, 250 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 2: and say hey, I have a case about this guy 251 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 2: and he's a big shark trafficker, they say thank you, 252 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 2: But you know, we have a lot of work. But 253 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 2: if I say that the same guy is into international 254 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 2: money laundering and human smuggling, human trafficking, all of. 255 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 3: A sudden, you just have their attention. And that's my 256 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 3: whole point. Okay, I'm going to bring you a good case. 257 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: It's like a poison pill. 258 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 3: You can take the credit, you can arrest them. 259 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 2: It's fine as long as I can work behind the scene, 260 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 2: as long as you put them away for a longer 261 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 2: period of time. Because sometimes if you arrest these people 262 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 2: for environmental crime or wildlife trafficking, they get maybe a 263 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 2: few weeks or a year of if but if you're 264 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 2: arresting for money laundering, oh that's different. 265 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: Is that typically the goal is is that the reality 266 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: meaning you have to accept this compromise. And I'm gladly 267 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: because you're getting your work done, but you have to 268 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: accept this compromise whereby you have to embed it inside 269 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 1: these other things. They're never going to act just on 270 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: the spirit of the animal protection and animal rights alone. 271 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: They won't do that. 272 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 3: No, they will do it. Only they started to do it. 273 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 2: You know, there are for example, US Homeland Security just 274 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 2: launcher like a new unit deDion. 275 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 3: Correct, So that's great news. 276 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 2: So they will they will have money and they have 277 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 2: certainly they have the mandate now to do it. And 278 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: we also help them as well with information. So that's 279 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 2: the that's the goal, is to have these big agencies 280 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: like gorillas, Yeah, with money jumping into the fight. 281 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: Where around the world would you say, do you enjoy 282 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: the highest level of cooperation. 283 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 3: One for sure? 284 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 2: The US, it is yes, absolutely, we WI We have 285 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: been sharing confidential information. We produce those reports that we 286 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 2: call confidential intelligence briefs and with many US agency and 287 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 2: they're acting on the information. In the past couple of years, 288 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 2: we help a public prosecutor in Mexico to arrest people, 289 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: We help a public prosecutor in Bolivia to arrest people. 290 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 3: They do it. 291 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: The problem is that a like the US in almost 292 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 2: any other country, they don't have the capability. 293 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 3: To investigate these people. 294 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 2: Just too high, okay, And so when we give information 295 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 2: to the US authorities, they can redo what we did 296 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 2: and collect evidence and actually do even more than that. 297 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 3: Of course you can imagine, right, But. 298 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 2: When you share information with Bolivia, Colombian, Thai or South Africa, 299 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 2: you just have to direct them toward Okay, go to 300 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 2: this place now and you will find these and these 301 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 2: and these, and you can arrest them and they do it. Unfortunately, 302 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 2: they don't have the capacity to do more. 303 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: So you're like dogs who sniff out the crime and 304 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: sniff out the people. Then you have to turn it 305 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: over to somebody else. 306 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 3: Exactly. 307 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: Now, one would assume only because of money. I don't 308 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: want to speak ill of the policies or the people 309 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: for that matter, of places like Africa and India, but 310 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: I would imagine because of budgets and money that those 311 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: are some of the toughest places for you to deal 312 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: with what you are rich in these resources and have 313 00:15:58,600 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: no money to defend. 314 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 2: Them, sometimes also no interest Sadly, environmental crime in many 315 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 2: countries is not a priority. It's saying okay, it's nature, 316 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 2: it's animals, whatever, you know. 317 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: So the human compoundent is viewed as part of the cycle. 318 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 319 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 2: So the agents not only under resources but also underfunded, 320 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 2: but also the people are are not people of the will, no, 321 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 2: and they from the top, from policy makers, from the officials, 322 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 2: big of you know, important officials or minis. Even the 323 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: minis sometimes they don't have a clear mandate or what 324 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 2: to do on. 325 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 3: Top of it. 326 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 2: What we do in the field, we often uncover corruption 327 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 2: at the highest level. 328 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 3: Okay, and they what do you do them? And they 329 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 3: don't like exactly and they don't like it? 330 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: What are you doing? You go home? 331 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 3: No, we share with US authorities days. 332 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: So the US ever taken any actions on that information. 333 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely they did. 334 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 2: They did, And actually there was an important arrest in 335 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 2: southern California, San Diego end of May this year, and 336 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 2: that was I cannot give you too many details, but 337 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 2: it's basically that was our work for almost two years 338 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 2: and they took down three of the most important, in 339 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 2: my opinion, whilelife traffics that've been operating between Mexico and 340 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 2: the US and China, because a lot of stuff goes 341 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 2: to China. And that's a great example of us doing 342 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 2: the first part of the job, and they do. 343 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 3: What they're supposed to do. 344 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: Of course, Earth League internationals Andrea Krosta. If you enjoy 345 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: conversations with activists fighting for animal rights, check out my 346 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 1: episode with the co founder of People for the Ethical 347 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: Treatment of Animals, Ingrid Newkirk. 348 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 4: There was a time when hunting was what many people 349 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 4: had to do to survive, and just as other animals hunt, 350 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 4: some humans had to hunt. I think those times have 351 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 4: also largely gone, and most people who hunt today are 352 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 4: not just getting one caribou to put it on the table. 353 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 3: It does happen. 354 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 4: I think being pragmatic is very good. You have to 355 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 4: have your head in the sky and your feet on 356 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 4: the ground. But we're looking at you know, Donald Trump 357 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 4: Junior going out to put a head on his wall. 358 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: That's a different story. To hear more of my conversation 359 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: with Ingrid Newkirk, go to Hear's Thething dot org. After 360 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 1: the break, Andrea Crosta shares how we are at a 361 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: now or never moment for rescuing our ecosystem. I'm Alec 362 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. The illegal 363 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: slaughter of wildlife for human consumption in food or medicine 364 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: is well documented. Most of us are aware of shark 365 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: vin soup or rhino horn virility pills. But there is 366 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: a rare animal, very much at risk that is not 367 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: getting the same attention as the others. Earth League International's 368 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 1: founder Andrea Crosta is fighting to save a porpoise called 369 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: the Wakita in the Sea of Cortez. This little known 370 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: marine mammal is dying in the guild nets of fishermen 371 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: as they pursue a fish called the toto waba. 372 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 2: So the whole story of the wakita is one of 373 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 2: the most bizarre stories I ever because it's the wakita 374 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 2: is the rarest marine mammal in the world, you know. 375 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 3: And sadly now. 376 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: The baby whale, it's sort of a baby. 377 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 2: Was really exactly a miniature twin whale and dolphin. Correct, 378 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 2: And it's endemic of the Sea of Cortes. Ba Californas 379 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 2: are only there and now probably less than ten survive 380 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 2: in the whole Sea of Cortez. Okay, they are at 381 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 2: what like on literally on the brink of extinction, and 382 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 2: the reason. 383 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 3: Is because they die as bycatch in those nets. 384 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 2: But those nets are actually for a fish called toto aba, 385 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 2: and the swim bladder of the toto aaba is actually 386 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 2: they what we're looking for. So it's from medicine, for 387 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 2: traditional Chinese medicine. 388 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 3: So they put this. 389 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: The Chinese wanted to toaba from Mexico. 390 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 3: Swim bladder just swim describe. 391 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 1: Of the Chinese allowed by any kind of territorial agreements. 392 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: I mean that water off the coast of Baja California 393 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: must belong to some government entity in Mexico, of course, 394 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: allowing the Chinese to take all that. 395 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 3: No, but there is not nothing that is being smuggled. 396 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 3: It's crime. It's one hundred percent crime living. 397 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: Based on the other things you said that a lot 398 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: of the people who are doing the smuggling are also 399 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 1: drug dealers who are. 400 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 3: Smuggling because they make a lot of money. 401 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: You know, you have the pathways the rahaps. 402 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 2: Imagine one swim bladder, which is a swim better Okay, 403 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 2: we're talking about a swim letter of a fish. In 404 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 2: Baja California, the fishing cooperatives and the fishers make three 405 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 2: thousand dollars per swim bladder. Usually they make six hundred 406 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 2: dollars a month fishing. 407 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: So you can. 408 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 2: Imagine the temptation. How That's why sometimes my whole bottle 409 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 2: was Hey, stop pointing the finger towards to theatres and 410 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 2: the illegal fishermen. 411 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 3: You don't know what you're talking about. 412 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 2: You don't know what is to live there in the 413 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 2: middle of nowhere, with no state, no jobs, no nothing, 414 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 2: no security. 415 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 3: Of course they do it. 416 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 2: The problem are the traffickers go after them, not after 417 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 2: the posers. Okay, you make six hundred dollars a month fishing, 418 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 2: and one swim bladder is three thousand dollars, of course 419 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 2: you do it. So the swim bladder three thousand dollars 420 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 2: apiece in the Sea of Cortes and then this strange 421 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 2: illegal supply chain begins through Mexico, through the US all 422 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 2: the way to China, and in China the same swim 423 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 2: bladder goes for forty fifty, sixty, even seventy thousand dollars 424 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 2: third piece. And that's why then art courts and organized 425 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 2: crime jump in because it's a lot of money with 426 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 2: almost zero resk. Because you're not dealing with cocaine or stuff. 427 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 2: You're right be dealing with swim bladders. Nobody cares, but 428 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 2: it's a lot of money. 429 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,159 Speaker 1: It's ironic to me, and it's not lost on me 430 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 1: that there's duplicative in terms of this. They toto waba 431 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: swim bladder issue in the Sea of Cortez and the 432 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: drugs themselves. Meaning we've had a policy for forty something 433 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 1: years in this country of interdiction and only going after 434 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: the producers and not going to the demand and trying 435 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 1: to stop the demand because these poor people are going 436 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: to produce it and trying to make money anyway that 437 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: they can, and it mimics the same thing in the 438 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: drug world as it does. 439 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 2: And they today I read that in Colombia for another year, 440 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 2: they're cultivating more cocaine than last year. So it's growing 441 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 2: because these are poor people who have nothing else to do, 442 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: and yet they became the villain. And what I'm keep 443 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 2: saying is the villain is not the poacher. The villain 444 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 2: is not the compass, you know. The villain is the 445 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 2: trafficker who lives in Park. 446 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: Avenue by the way, Miami. 447 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 3: Oh exactly. 448 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: Now, when I was younger, the portal for me into 449 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff was my ex wife, who 450 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: was a big animal rights person and is a big 451 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: animal rights person, and she introduced me to different people. 452 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: We met, you know, in the early days. We met 453 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: Alex Pacheco when he was still involved with Peter and 454 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,919 Speaker 1: then he left, Ingrid Newkirk, who co founded with Alex. 455 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: There's people who this is such a cause for them, 456 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: this is such a burning ache in them, how these 457 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: animals are treated. They open up there will they give 458 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: you a lot of money, They give you a lot 459 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,239 Speaker 1: of money, and I'm wondering if that same with you. 460 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: Do you find people who really are No, we gotta 461 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: work on. I gotta give you a phone couple of 462 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: phone numbers. 463 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 3: I know one reason. One reason, because I really suck. 464 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 2: If you put me in a room fundraising, I will 465 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 2: leave the room giving money to somebody. So my team said, Andrea, 466 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 2: come at the very end. Okay, But the point is 467 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,880 Speaker 2: it's easier to raise money when you deal with animals directly. 468 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 2: I mean, you rescue elephants, you rescue dogs, or you 469 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 2: rescue baby elephants in Kenya. 470 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 3: Then you have what they're. 471 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 2: Buying, so to speak, when they give you the money. 472 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 2: Is this the emotion of rescuing a creature living creature? 473 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 2: I mean on the spot, probably right, because you can 474 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 2: give them money so I know that the elephant is 475 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 2: safe in our case, they first to I mean the 476 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 2: business of keeping the animals alive in the wild. In 477 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 2: terms of visual, for example, I produce a lot of 478 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 2: undercover footage of bad, bad people trafficking parts. Okay, that's 479 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 2: it's not that as sexy as Okay, look at this 480 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 2: baby elephant or look at this. Please help me if 481 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,399 Speaker 2: I always make the joke in Los Angeles if I 482 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 2: go around with the photo of a baby elf and 483 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 2: there is millions of dollars in an evening. But if 484 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 2: I go around like I do, say, actually, we need 485 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 2: time to work on this network for two years, but 486 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 2: they're responsible for the killing of thousands of elephants for 487 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 2: the ivory. But any time, and maybe you will not 488 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 2: see everything we do because it's dangerous. It's confidentially, so 489 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I will share with you so that you 490 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 2: see where I'm going. So the whole thing is way 491 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 2: more complicated for us. From our website, you understand, but 492 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 2: not so much. The only way to understand what we 493 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 2: do is to it's meeting with me or Mark Davis, 494 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 2: my right art. Otherwise you will miss most of the 495 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 2: work that we do. So law enforcement and other professionals 496 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 2: appreciate a lot what we do because they get it. 497 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 2: But with the public, it's a whole different story. 498 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: Now this also leads me to you know, I'm in 499 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: rooms with people all over the country. In Washington, New York, LA. 500 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,679 Speaker 1: When Tom Freston ran Paramount Pictures and his wife his 501 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: ex wife Kathy Preston, was a huge and is a 502 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: huge animal rights supporter. This was how we got to 503 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 1: have the PEEDA fundraiser on the lot of paramount. But 504 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: the idea is for most people, beyond pets, beyond a 505 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: dog or a cated domestic animal, the relationship with all 506 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: other animals is a meal on plates. How do you 507 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 1: get people who have the money, perhaps, how do you 508 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: get them to care? But what do they give a 509 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: shit about rhino horn? 510 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 3: Exactly? What do you tell them exactly? 511 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 2: So my pitch now is that at the level we work, 512 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 2: we are really talking about industrial scale criminal exploitation of nature. 513 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 3: So it's destroying the planet. 514 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 2: It's destroying and entire We have a project now in 515 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 2: the Amazon on deforestation, land grabbing, and then how they 516 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 2: use this land for cattle and the meat. So they're 517 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 2: destroying our planets. So even if you don't care about animals, 518 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 2: it's important for our future to stop these criminal enterprises. 519 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 3: And by the way, what they do also has. 520 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 2: An impact on climate change as well. When destroying the forest, 521 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 2: when you're emptying the oceans, it will have repercussions also 522 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 2: on climate change. Unfortunately, climate change, in my opinion, is 523 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 2: a very self center narrative. It's mostly about us human 524 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 2: We are afraid. Okay, you're going very rarely. You hear 525 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 2: what about biodiversity? I mean we are destroying what's that? 526 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: What's that word? 527 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 3: Anthropocent interpose totally intra percent. You know, we are afraid 528 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 3: of we are afraid. But that's that's what it is about. Yeah, exactly, 529 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 3: so I tried. 530 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 2: For example, we are we've been working on a network 531 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 2: of track trafficing network in operating between Peru Ecuador. They're 532 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 2: responsible alone for half a million sharks every year. Okay, 533 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 2: so before understanding our impact, you have to understand the 534 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 2: impact of these networks, how they're destroyed, and how it 535 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 2: is important to stop them. Otherwise the next generation we 536 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 2: keep talking about, oh hey, let's do our best to 537 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 2: protect as much as we can, so the next generation 538 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 2: will find something. Well, I app news for you. If 539 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 2: you continue like this, they will find nothing. There's nothing 540 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 2: to protect. Even if they will come up with the 541 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 2: best possible solution, there will be nothing to protect. So 542 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 2: most of the species and ecosystem and wild spaces do 543 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 2: not have the time for a generational change. 544 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 3: It's now or never. 545 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: Animal activist Andrea Crosta, if you're enjoying this conversation, tell 546 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: a friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing 547 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. 548 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:58,479 Speaker 1: When we come back, Andrea Croster shares his experiences meeting 549 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 1: wildlife traffickers on the ground. I'm Alec Baldwin and you 550 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,439 Speaker 1: were listening to Here's the Thing. In the early days 551 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: of Earth League International, Andrea Kroster was given a crash 552 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: course in some of the darkest parts of humanity, those 553 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: people willing to hurt vulnerable animals for profit. That knowledge 554 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 1: came at a price, one which included his marriage at 555 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: the time. Kroster has since rebounded and re partnered. 556 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 2: That was the early days when I had to go 557 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 2: through educate myself. So I it took a toll on you. 558 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 2: Of course, it was a cost for you. It was painful, 559 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 2: was paid. It would be for anybody. No, and I 560 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 2: was also probably not prepared. But I had to do 561 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 2: it because you had to see what you're fighting. And 562 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 2: so progress at Detroy, my soul at destroy and the 563 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 2: marriage by the way, and that makes you sick and 564 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 2: makes you sick. I moved to Los Angeles. I got 565 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 2: an informa in Los Angeles. I took you know and 566 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 2: all this while trying to fundraise and work right, and 567 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 2: and then after the informat it was COVID for two 568 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 2: three years. So it was just a mess. And I 569 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 2: never gave up. I never saw okay, that's that's enough. 570 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 2: Maybe okay the tallest tootle now, I never said that 571 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 2: we could, you know, with my small team, we continue 572 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 2: to work throughout well informa throughout the COVID, But on 573 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 2: a personal level, I was dead broken, broken completely. I 574 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 2: was just living with my dog Argus in Marianda in 575 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: my apartment. And then that's of course you Argosia from 576 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 2: from the Olysses, So Argus first and Sophia later. 577 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 3: Literally you know when you when where did you meet her? Friends? 578 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 3: In in in Los Angeles? 579 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 2: And and she has a really she is a nurse 580 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 2: for you know, for working or children. I see us 581 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 2: are really you can imagine the grounded, grounded or and 582 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 2: I needed somebody like this to, you know, to pull 583 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 2: me up. I was ready to continue with my work, 584 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 2: but trading off my personal life. You know, when you think, okay, 585 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 2: I'm going. 586 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: To sacrifice one, you're going to continue, We're. 587 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 2: Going to continue, going to bust the ass of these people. 588 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 2: That's what I The reason I'm on this earth is 589 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 2: to protect the animals and doesn't matter what happens to me. 590 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: Do you think things have changed in the time you've 591 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: done this, Have things gotten better or people's attitudes towards 592 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: I mean to me, the most profound thing, or among 593 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: the many profound things you say, is their understanding of 594 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: the entire ecosystem correct, and that wildlife conservation is a 595 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: part of the ecosystem. Especially with fishing. You see what 596 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: you can take all those fish out of the water. 597 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: What's going to happen? Do you think things are improving? 598 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 2: Maybe locally here and there. It's all about you know, 599 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 2: with everything, it's all about people. If the right people 600 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 2: is doing the right thing in the right place, things 601 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 2: will change. Globally, I don't think so, And I think 602 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 2: one of the reasons is because again, environmental protection is 603 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 2: still not a priority. The climate change movement is ultra 604 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 2: focus on fossil fuel and this and that, but it's 605 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 2: not it comprehensive enough, exactly, not comprehensive enough. On the 606 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 2: other hand, what is moving finally, especially in the US, 607 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 2: is that the government, government agencies and big law enforcement 608 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 2: agencies are finally getting what is happening, and they're willing 609 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 2: to do something about it. But of course the US, 610 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 2: I mean, what you're going to do, and you know, 611 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 2: to change things in the Amazon, for example, you need 612 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 2: the Brazilian government, you need the Columbian government to do something, 613 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 2: and how. 614 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 3: How do you do it? I honestly, I don't have 615 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 3: the answer for that. 616 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 2: I mean I see myself as you know, running, you 617 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 2: know the relay run in the Olympics. You know, when 618 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 2: you run and you pass the baton to somebody else. 619 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 3: That's my role. 620 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 2: So I'm running as fast as I can, and I'm 621 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 2: doing as much as I can, and then I will 622 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 2: pass the baton to someone else and someone else because 623 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 2: I'm the more I work now and the more he 624 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 2: or she will find alive, and then it's her job 625 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 2: or his job to continue. I don't think I will 626 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 2: see a change in my life. 627 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: I want you to describe two different people you may 628 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: have met. I'm assuming you have met, and I want 629 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: to start with have you ever met a trafficker? Have 630 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: you ever seen it? Talk to a traffic Yeah? Yeah, 631 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: we described the country, where were you the circumstances? What 632 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: did they tell you? 633 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 2: Oh? 634 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 3: It's a long lead. 635 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 2: I have a long I mean, we can do ten 636 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 2: different movies just from our stories. It's funny because we 637 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 2: recently started to produce also on top of our intelligence, 638 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 2: were also producing profiles, psychological profiles of the traffickers to 639 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 2: help law enforcement and agencies to understand who is this 640 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 2: who this guy. The big difference is that on top 641 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 2: of environmental criminal networks and trafficking networks, unlike narco trafficking, 642 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 2: they are businessmen. So first of all, they're business and 643 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 2: they do a lot of criminal stuff, but they're business. 644 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 2: They make a lot of money also from legal stuff. 645 00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 2: Actually they are masters in overlapping legal and illegal. So 646 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 2: they have import, export, supermarket, restaurants, all kinds of businesses, 647 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 2: real estate, and on top of it, they also do 648 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 2: all kinds of trafficking and also not only I mean 649 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 2: we're not talking about again, while trafficing, illegal log illegal fishing, 650 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 2: illegal mining is a big thing as well. 651 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 3: Some of them are I would say, funny people. 652 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 2: I having a couple of them in mind, and every 653 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 2: time my mind, the COVID team comes back home and 654 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 2: we do the debrief and we discuss what they did. 655 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 2: They also they always say this guy are funny. They 656 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 2: know how to live. They have no clue what they're doing, 657 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 2: I mean the destruction that they don't care about it. 658 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 3: They are usually very rich. 659 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 2: They have ties with hundred percent criminal organizations and narco 660 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 2: trafficking for example, and they are really really good in 661 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 2: doing certain things without doing too much. For example, a 662 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 2: lot of the traffickers we have been investigating in the 663 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 2: past few years, they lounder the money for organized crime 664 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 2: and arco traffickers. They will never do drugs themselves, but 665 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 2: they are really good in laundering the money. And organized 666 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 2: crime and arco trafficing organization have the need of a 667 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 2: big they have to lounder a lot of money, a 668 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 2: lot of cash. They sit on cash in the US 669 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 2: as well, right, they don't know what to do with 670 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 2: all this cash. They're really good in doing that, so 671 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:19,399 Speaker 2: they mix. They constantly mixed cousins. Absolutely, yeah, and that's 672 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 2: the same family. Absolutely, And that's the opportunity actually, because 673 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 2: while environmental crime and while trafficking and illegal logging whatever, 674 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 2: it has a lot of similarities with narco trafficking, with 675 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:34,879 Speaker 2: one very important difference. At the top of an arco 676 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 2: trafficking organization, you have a big narcos, a big trafficker, 677 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 2: and you have zero average on this person. You kill 678 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 2: him or jailim. It's not you cannot do anything else. 679 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 2: And if you kill him somebody else, we can't part 680 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 2: with him. On the top of who runs the show, 681 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 2: environmental crime, the trafficking, they are businessmen. They make a 682 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 2: lot of money also from legal businesses. So my job 683 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 2: is to raise their cost of business, going after them 684 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 2: in a way there were nobody else, nobody ever, you know, 685 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 2: went after them like that, raise the cost of business, 686 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 2: arrest a bunch of them, and eventually hopefully push them 687 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 2: out of it. 688 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: They don't want to but they don't want to go 689 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 1: to prison. Of course. People on the narco trafficking, then 690 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: they assume either they're going to pay off the cops 691 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: they shoot their way exactly. But eventually they realized they 692 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 1: might go to prison exactly. 693 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,280 Speaker 3: And they know they know right, but not these people. 694 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 2: I don't want to go to the prison, of course, 695 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 2: so Mike, no, So I'm trying to change the game 696 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 2: in this way. Forget about the ports, forget about the 697 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 2: little little fish, go after these people, show them that 698 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 2: they are not ghosts anymore. Because these people are ghosts 699 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,319 Speaker 2: are no names, no face. My job is to give 700 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 2: a face and a name to ghost, and to do 701 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 2: that I use my ghost. Okay, so it's a battle 702 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 2: between ghosts. But the end game is at the end 703 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 2: this guy will have a name, will have a face, 704 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 2: and usually we provide intelligence about these people with you. 705 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 2: You had to understand you our reports are maybe you 706 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 2: will find fifty pages of intelligence about one single person. 707 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,760 Speaker 2: So imagine how much you can do as law enforcement 708 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 2: agency about this person if you want to. 709 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,880 Speaker 1: You know John Hume, the character movie Trophy. In the 710 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 1: movie Trophy, what did you think about that argument where 711 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: he says, I've got to we have to kill some 712 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: of these animals, and we have to let people come 713 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: here and shoot some of these animals so I can 714 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: monetize the product to save the animals. I don't have 715 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 1: any budget. What do you think of that? 716 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,359 Speaker 3: So I know stuff about him that I cannot share here, just. 717 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,399 Speaker 1: To begin, I would imagine, but he it. 718 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 3: Wasn't the news a few days ago. 719 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,399 Speaker 2: He recently managed finally to sell his property, the whole 720 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 2: property thing, with all the rhinos included. 721 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 1: And he has a huge vault of horn. 722 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,359 Speaker 2: Exactly, So apparently when I heard the news, because he's 723 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 2: selling this this I don't know how many rhinos I think, 724 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 2: I don't know to Angil. Actually it's a big one 725 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 2: of the largest environmental organization in the world to African parks. 726 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 2: So they take in it and they it's a great 727 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 2: It's a strange idea, but okay, I can see the point. 728 00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 2: And when I when someone asked me, you know, in 729 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 2: an interview, my reaction, the first thing I said was, 730 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 2: is he allowed to keep this stockpile because. 731 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 3: He's sitting on hundreds of millions. 732 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: Of dollars of horns But there's a band on horns still. 733 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,640 Speaker 2: Absolutely apparently apparently, I don't know, if it's true, he will, 734 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 2: he will be forced to destroy it. But because of course, 735 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you cannot. I'm completely against the 736 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 2: legal trade of this, of ivory or rhino. 737 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 3: You just fuel the demand. 738 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 2: And again, let's not forget we are dealing with Asia, 739 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 2: so two three billion people. 740 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 3: You don't want to fuel the demand. 741 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 2: Of anything with exactly it's not Rhode Island, okay, it's Asia, Okay. 742 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 2: So so yeah, it's an interesting story. And he for 743 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 2: mister Hume, for many years kept saying Okay, we have 744 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 2: to sell Rhino a bit of fuel horns to sustain 745 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 2: the expenses. And I was always against absolutely. 746 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: Someone you worked with and they don't have to be 747 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: somebody who put their lives at risk. But I'm obviously 748 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 1: I'm thinking along those lines. Someone you work with, who 749 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,399 Speaker 1: you really admired, someone you worked with you thought, my god, 750 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: this person like yourself. They're really committed to the scores 751 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 1: and they're willing to risk almost anything to follow through. Well. 752 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 2: One of my is our chief investigator, the head of 753 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 2: our UNDERCOVID team, is incredible and he does things that, 754 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 2: in my opinion, nobody else in the world can do. 755 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: And he's not out of it in the press. He 756 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 1: is still is. 757 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 2: Not American, and he does He's able to with his 758 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 2: team and also our guidance because there's a lot of 759 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 2: preparation before the mission, you know, we try to improvise 760 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:41,040 Speaker 2: as lot as possible. He's able to really become good 761 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 2: friend of the worst possible people that you can imagine 762 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 2: on the planet and then get the kind of information 763 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 2: that not even the government can get from these people. 764 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 2: And I'm really proud of my team. I always say 765 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 2: I'm just I mean Most of the work is my team, 766 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 2: the undercover guys, the analysts, the people in the field. 767 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,240 Speaker 3: So I coordinated the whole thing. I had the idea. 768 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 1: But they do that. 769 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 3: They have to be praised, not really mean. 770 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 2: I can tell you a little story just to tell 771 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 2: you how sometimes the value of why is important to 772 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 2: become their friends. 773 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 3: Friends of these people. 774 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 2: We work for more than a year in a Latin 775 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 2: American country on jaguar trafficking, so that they traffic parts 776 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 2: of jaguar, mostly. 777 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 1: South America. 778 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 2: In Brazil is Pantanalia, but they do it in Colombia 779 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 2: and Bolivia and Peru and Ecuadora and Surina everywhere, and 780 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 2: then they ship bones and fangs to Asia because with fangs, 781 00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,800 Speaker 2: they like to have fangs, you know, like jewelry and bones. 782 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 3: They actually do like they do with tiger. 783 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 2: They actually jaguar bones in Asia is then sold as 784 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 2: tiger and they do bone wine tiger bone wine to 785 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,360 Speaker 2: enhance your you know, sexuality and stuff like that. But 786 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 2: they're destroying entire population of jaguars and Latin America. So 787 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 2: we help a local public prosecutor in Latin America to 788 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 2: a as the five most important jaguar traffickers in the 789 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 2: country and we did it very successful. 790 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,879 Speaker 3: We also published something. Then we went back to. 791 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 2: The same country six months later last year to see 792 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 2: you know what happened. So the good news is that 793 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 2: everyone else stopped buying Jaguar, which is exactly my point. 794 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 2: If you scare them, they will stop, unlike narcle traffickers. 795 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,080 Speaker 2: Believe me, if it's all about the right pressure points. 796 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 2: If you identify the right pressure point and then you 797 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,760 Speaker 2: have fly pressure, they have fear, they stop. The funny 798 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 2: thing is that you're out of a movie. 799 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:35,760 Speaker 3: Believe me. Is true. 800 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 2: While we were meeting these traffickers, one of them received 801 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 2: first and SMS and then a call from a policeman 802 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 2: alerting them about us because they knew but they didn't 803 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,279 Speaker 2: know exactly who we were. So this guy and we 804 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,839 Speaker 2: were filming everything right away in the same time, so 805 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 2: filming up the cover of course. So this guy the 806 00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 2: traffickers was telling my guy about us without knowing it 807 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 2: was us. 808 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,240 Speaker 1: Right do you think AI? I mean, AI has become 809 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:09,400 Speaker 1: a huge watchword in my business, was replaced by AI. 810 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 1: AI can help you in the work. 811 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 2: You do eventually, probably, yeah, I mean in terms of 812 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,279 Speaker 2: finding connection when you have a lot of data, and you. 813 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 3: Have a lot of forks. 814 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 2: Imagine you have a lot of names and address and 815 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,799 Speaker 2: telephone numbers and emails and reach out accounts and all 816 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,400 Speaker 2: kinds of names, all kinds of alienses, all kinds of stuff. 817 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 3: I think, Yes, the problem is. 818 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:33,319 Speaker 2: That all this information you should we should you know, 819 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,240 Speaker 2: there should be one repository, one database with all this information, 820 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 2: or find a way to in this. Yeah, but I 821 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,320 Speaker 2: want to say, you know, because every time people coming 822 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,719 Speaker 2: up with all kinds of technologies and try to help us, 823 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 2: and what I answer is yes, but first of all, 824 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 2: you need human intelligence that only people can do. You 825 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 2: have to go there, get dirty, go in the middle 826 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 2: of nowhere, meet these people, understand these people. Okay, intelligence 827 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,520 Speaker 2: come from the Latin intelligure. It doesn't mean to know, 828 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,920 Speaker 2: it means to understand. And if you don't understand, you 829 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:08,839 Speaker 2: will never have the right tools to fight back. 830 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: Now, in my travels around the world, many places of world, 831 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,239 Speaker 1: no one knows how to relax and enjoy life and 832 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: and and get the most out of like the Italians. 833 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 3: And you are an Italian and American recently. 834 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,640 Speaker 1: Okay, so you're an Italian American, but you are Italian, yeah, 835 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: by birth, and I'm wondering, do you ever get to 836 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,799 Speaker 1: unplug and live like Italians do and enjoy yourself or 837 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,720 Speaker 1: you always plugged in. I'm a bad example of bad Italian. 838 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 2: I'm an Argus and Sofia again are helping me a 839 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 2: lot to unplug. And it's so so important because if 840 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,520 Speaker 2: you break, everything breaks. 841 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,880 Speaker 1: Down with you, right, you put a lot of pressure. 842 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. But on the other hand, I think Italians have 843 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,919 Speaker 2: in their DNA we know how to enjoy ourselves. 844 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:54,760 Speaker 1: So what do you do when you want to unplug? 845 00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 2: I usually hike on the Santa Monica Mountains with Argus 846 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 2: and Sofia or on the beach. 847 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:01,719 Speaker 3: That's it. I love. 848 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,600 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm a big, big lover of the Pacific 849 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,840 Speaker 2: Northwest and Rocky Mountains, so whenever is possible, I go 850 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 2: there and just disappear for a while. 851 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:11,520 Speaker 1: If I want to wish you the best of luck, 852 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I've read this article and I'm so admiring 853 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,759 Speaker 1: of what you do, because you really are fighting what 854 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: I think it's one of the great battles to bring 855 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:25,439 Speaker 1: to people the understanding that these environmental crimes all are 856 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 1: of one. Thank you, Andrea Crosta. This episode was recorded 857 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 1: at CDM Studios in New York City. We're produced by 858 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,680 Speaker 1: Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is 859 00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:46,359 Speaker 1: Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm 860 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:48,719 Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing that is brought to you 861 00:43:48,800 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 1: by iHeart Radio. The company can make the company