1 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy Hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you 8 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is 9 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with 10 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much 11 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: for joining me for the special bonus episode of the 12 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,279 Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our 13 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: conversation afterword from our sponsors. The NATO Podcast, executive produced 14 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: and hosted by Gabrielle Horton and Martina abrams Aalunga, is 15 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: an audio docuseriies centering black parenthood and reproductive justice in America. 16 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: Since launching the show, Gabrielle and Martina have brought us 17 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: deeply personal stories, sharing the lived experiences of Black women, 18 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 1: gender expansive people, and families navigating the reproductive care space. 19 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: Through that storytelling, they not only educate their audiences and 20 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,559 Speaker 1: raise awareness, but they also push for real systemic change 21 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: in maternal health care, advocating for a future where black 22 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: families have access to care that is truly equitable and 23 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: rooted in compassion. Some of you might remember an episode 24 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:00,559 Speaker 1: of NATO that we shared a while back. Well, today, 25 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: I'm thrilled to welcome Martine and Gabrielle back for this 26 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: special bonus episode where we dive into all the incredible 27 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: work that went into bringing season three of their podcast 28 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: to life. If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, 29 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: please share with us on social media using the hashtag 30 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: TBG in session, or join us over in our new 31 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: Patreon channel to talk more about the episode. You can 32 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot Com. 33 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Well, I am so honored to be 34 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: joined by Gabrielle and Martina today. I'm very excited to 35 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: chat with you all. So many of our community members 36 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: may know you from NATO. We did a feensw off 37 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago and people likely tuned in, 38 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: But for people who maybe are not familiar and need 39 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: a little bit of an introduction, can you introduce yourselves 40 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: and tell us how NATO came to be sure? 41 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 2: Do you want to kick us off? 42 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:05,679 Speaker 3: Gabrielle, I'm Gabrielle Horton, originally from Inglewood, California, the executive 43 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 3: producer and also co hosts. 44 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 4: Alongside Martina on n Needle is a podcast about having 45 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,119 Speaker 4: a baby while black. I'm sure we'll get a chance 46 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 4: to sort of talk about how it's expanded, but I 47 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 4: really think about the show as a reproductive justice, a 48 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 4: series that helps the chronicle and document the memories and 49 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 4: experiences of Black women, gender expansive people and families and 50 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 4: your experiences navigating reproductive care. 51 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 5: And I'm Martina Abraham's Ilunga. I'm based in Brooklyn, New York. 52 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 5: I'm co executive producer and host alongside Gabrielle. 53 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: And how would you both say that NATO has evolved 54 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: over the years that you've been doing it. 55 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 2: Hmm, that's a great question. 56 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 5: I would say, you know, first, before we get into 57 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 5: how it's evolved, the one thing that's been consistent across 58 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 5: all three seasons, we ask everyone we talk to what 59 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 5: should care look like? What does care look like for 60 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 5: black birthing folks, for black reproductive folks in this country, 61 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 5: and the way that we've answered those questions has looked 62 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 5: differently each season. So we started off really wanting to 63 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,359 Speaker 5: get a sense of, Okay, what does care look like 64 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 5: across the country, what are folks facing every single day, 65 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 5: How are folks navigating their care on their journeys to 66 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 5: trying to have a baby? Season one is really a 67 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 5: gumbo pot of stories from folks of different kinds of identities, 68 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 5: different kinds of circumstances, different age groups. And then season 69 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 5: two we wanted to go really deep into the experience 70 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 5: of folks who are navigating having babies, Black folks in 71 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 5: rural places, so we followed three families really closely on 72 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 5: their journeys. And then season three we kind of switched 73 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 5: up the format and even who we spoke to. Season 74 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 5: three launched last fall, and we were really thinking about 75 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 5: how has the Dobbs decision and the Supreme Court kind 76 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 5: of rolling back Roe v. Wade affect what care has 77 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 5: looked like, and so we wanted to talk to the 78 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 5: people who are on the front lines and doing this 79 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 5: work and fighting, and we featured the voices of eight 80 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 5: different advocates, different birth workers, folks who are doing organizing 81 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,679 Speaker 5: work in conversation with one another, as they explored how 82 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 5: their work has changed or evolved before, during, and in 83 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 5: this case after, Roe v. 84 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 2: Wade. 85 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 5: So our work has expanded based off of what is 86 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 5: kind of happening in the atmosphere, what is going on 87 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 5: in the country, what questions are people having, what voices 88 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 5: are we not hearing from? 89 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: Those are some of the things. 90 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 5: That have guided the ways in which NATAL has expanded 91 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 5: in the last five years. 92 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with everything Martinez said. I think 93 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 4: to add on to that, not only is this year 94 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 4: Natal's fifth birthday, fifth anniversary, but I think in terms 95 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 4: of thinking about how we've expanded, I think it's the 96 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 4: first season was really driven by, honestly, a deep fear 97 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 4: that we had about what we now sort of know 98 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 4: and is sort of named as a Black maternal health crisis. 99 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 4: We were hearing stories from friends of ours, We were 100 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 4: even hearing stories from loved ones parents about their own 101 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 4: experiences navigating care in the hospital system, all the things 102 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 4: that they didn't know, all the things that they wish 103 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 4: they had known, and sometimes in some cases the trauma 104 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 4: and even sometimes in their death experiences. So that really 105 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 4: fueled season one in many ways trying to find answers 106 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 4: to this thing that our Tina and I and our 107 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 4: production team we were afraid of as folks who hadn't 108 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 4: given birth but have had a myriad of reproductive care 109 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 4: experiences of our own. And I'd say that with each season, 110 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 4: I think what also guides is that we continue to 111 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 4: open ourselves up, like how expansive liberation can be right. 112 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 4: And I think when we think about reproductive justice, it's 113 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,719 Speaker 4: not just like the pregnancy and childbirth and postpartum. We're 114 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 4: really thinking wholeheartedly and in conversation with families and providers 115 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 4: and birth workers who are thinking very expansively about liberation 116 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 4: in this way. So I think with each season, you 117 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 4: kind of get a chance to see us also kind 118 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 4: of step outside of our own fear, if you will, 119 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 4: to really start to reimagine what care can look like 120 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 4: and how we build care systems that work for all 121 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 4: of us. And yeah, so I think you kind of 122 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 4: see us grow as well with the season and try 123 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 4: to sort of guide those conversations in those ways as well. 124 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, And you see it in the ways that the 125 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 5: topics expand. Like season one, we really focused on people's pregnancy, birthing, 126 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 5: and postpartum. Season two, the storytelling began for each of 127 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 5: the parent storytellers that we featured really begin when they 128 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 5: were children. Now, what did you first learn about your body? 129 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 5: How did you first learn how to take care of yourself? 130 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 5: What were the lessons you received about care, about going 131 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 5: to the doctor, about your bodily autonomy? And then season 132 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,679 Speaker 5: three was introducing, really for the not for the first 133 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 5: time on our show, but in this focused way, the 134 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 5: idea of abortion care and how we connect a border 135 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 5: care to the larger reproductive justice work that's being done, 136 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 5: and showing these connections between abortion and maternal health care 137 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 5: more broadly and how you know they're not isolated issues. 138 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 5: So I think that feeds into it. Yeah, you were saying, Gabby. 139 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I know I don't have to tell you 140 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: to this parious time we find ourselves in history, and 141 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot about like black women 142 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: like you all doing this kind of work in this 143 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: kind of way at this time. And so you know, 144 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: how would you say your heart has been as you 145 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: continue to pour into this work, and how have you 146 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: been taking care of yourself giving yourself in this way? 147 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: You know, as you continue to show. 148 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 4: Up, Doctor Joy. That's a big questions, a heavy one. 149 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 4: We think about this a lot. We talk about this 150 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 4: a lot, and to be quite honestly, Martina and I 151 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 4: have cultivated a friendship over the past five years as well. 152 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 4: We started off as colleagues. But I think as we've 153 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 4: been developing our friendship, we have these conversations about how 154 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 4: are we caring for ourselves. I'll use an example from 155 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 4: last season, the season three that Martina reference, where we 156 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 4: focused on what does care look like for black families 157 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 4: after the overturning of Roe v. Wade and episode three 158 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 4: in particular, I share a little bit about my own 159 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 4: abortion story, and that was something that obviously came up 160 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 4: as we're doing our planning, we're having reproduction calls as 161 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 4: a team, how are we framing things. We're always trying 162 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 4: to sort of bring ourselves to the conversation in some ways, 163 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 4: not focused on us, but making sure folks know that 164 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 4: we're having our own experiences as we're also asking folks 165 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 4: to be vulnerable and share their experiences with us. And 166 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 4: that was a difficult time. I did not know how 167 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,719 Speaker 4: to communicate how challenging it was to revisit my own 168 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 4: abortion that happened over a decade ago, and I really 169 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 4: struggled in silence with it. As much as we sort 170 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 4: of preached this openness and honesty and vulnerability, I was 171 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 4: struggling to really show up honestly with my team with Martina, 172 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 4: And so end of the season, when we had our 173 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 4: sort of big reflection and debrief, we talked about that, 174 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 4: and then Martina and I had even further conversations what 175 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 4: does it look like to care for ourselves in the 176 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 4: midst of doing this work, and so, you know, I 177 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 4: think we think a lot about that. You know, obviously 178 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 4: there's examples I can share, taking walks outside, stopping for 179 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 4: deep breaths, getting back into therapy, just thinking about ways 180 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 4: that we can sort of build the sort of larger 181 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 4: tool kit for ourselves as much as we're sort of 182 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 4: encouraging others to do the same. So that's sort of 183 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 4: one example where the tension was just really there in 184 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 4: the midst of trying to produce and get this season 185 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 4: out and just really struggling to find my footing, which 186 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 4: I think is just a very normal and human thing. 187 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 4: So I think we're kind of always trying to figure 188 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 4: it out, especially as our own stories and memories are 189 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 4: coming back to surface or we're engaging with those who 190 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 4: are really moving us. We have to really sort of 191 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 4: be deliberate in the time that we carve out for 192 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 4: taking a pause, taking a moment of rest, and really 193 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 4: thinking about how we care for ourselves through it all, 194 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 4: just as much as we care for the storytellers and 195 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 4: advocates that we work with as well. 196 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 5: And I'll add on to that, I think season three 197 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 5: also taught me that so much of what we talk 198 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 5: about is also how can people show up for other 199 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 5: folks in their lives? How can you show up for 200 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 5: the friend who is having a baby, or the friend 201 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 5: who might have experienced a loss, or the friend who 202 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 5: is navigating an abortion. And Season three taught me that 203 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 5: we have to show up for each other in that 204 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 5: way too. So the things that we're talking about on 205 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 5: the show, like we need to put in practice as producers, 206 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 5: as teammates, as friends, and that all of these things 207 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 5: are connected, like this is our life too. 208 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: Had the decision been made to focus season three on 209 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: like abortion rights and things even before we knew that 210 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: there was a possibility of the rights being overturned or 211 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: is that a decision made afterwards? 212 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 5: It was made after it was It was one of 213 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 5: those right, Yeah, it was happening, right, the Dobbs decision 214 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 5: came down right. We were finishing up season two and 215 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 5: we took a bit of a break between seasons two 216 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 5: and three, so we were following what was happening, and 217 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 5: it was just top of mind for us, and we 218 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 5: knew we couldn't come into season three without addressing it. 219 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 2: We knew it would be a part of it. 220 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 5: I think a little bit later is when we decided that, 221 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 5: you know, that would be the focus. 222 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 2: For season three. 223 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 5: But we thought it was really important and an opportunity 224 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 5: to show folks the ways in which all of these 225 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,839 Speaker 5: things are connected and lots of spaces perinatal care and 226 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 5: maternal care is separate from abortion care, and that in 227 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 5: many cases that is intentional. But when we think about 228 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 5: what care looks like in the full spectrum of someone's 229 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 5: reproductive experience, none of these things are in isolation. And 230 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 5: we even see it some stories that are coming out 231 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 5: in the news around gender expand to folks who are 232 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 5: looking for experience miscarriage or have pregnancies that they know 233 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 5: won't be able to go to full term, and so 234 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 5: now they and their doctors are trying to figure out 235 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 5: how do we move forward. 236 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 2: They're not two separate things. Everything is connected. 237 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 5: So we thought season three would be a cool opportunity 238 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 5: to demonstrate some of that. 239 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think as the show has continued to 240 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 4: expand over the past three seasons, we were starting to 241 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 4: just hear more and more, especially from Southern birth workers 242 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 4: and advocates and organizers, that DOBS was on the way. 243 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 4: We sort of knew it was coming. And even in 244 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 4: season two, abortion comes up, and we have quite a 245 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 4: ten Slee Peterson and Oriyakun Djoku, both who were at 246 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 4: the time of our Southeast an Abortion Fund that's serving 247 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 4: the greater of not just Georgia, but also other states 248 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 4: in the Southeast region. So we were also just listening 249 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 4: carefully and deeply to folks who were on the ground, 250 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 4: who were doing this work, who are already perhaps in 251 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 4: states where there are already so many restrictions that care 252 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 4: even pre jobs. So I think it was something that 253 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 4: we knew we had an interest in. And I think 254 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 4: to Martinez point, I think thinking really critically about how 255 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 4: we can invite black folks as always, which is who 256 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 4: was always our focus to really think about, how do 257 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 4: we kind of remove the shame and the stigma that's 258 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 4: around abortion care or the decisions people make about their 259 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 4: bodies for their best interests and for their health. How 260 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 4: do we use this ruling to really sort of invite 261 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 4: people into the conversation and realize that all of these 262 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 4: things are connected and autonomy is something that we really 263 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 4: I think stress a lot in this season, but it's 264 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 4: something that kind of continues to come up, and I 265 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 4: think the Jobs decision was just one where it's like 266 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 4: we just could not ignore all that sort of coming 267 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 4: out of it, all the organizing, all the resistance, all 268 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 4: the activism in response to it. So it just felt 269 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 4: like a natural fit in that way for sure. 270 00:14:49,840 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 6: One from our conversation after the break, I. 271 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: Feel like season three opens beautifully kind of laying their 272 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: groundwork for like the long history that black women have 273 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: had in organizing for reproductive freedoms. Can you talk about 274 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: maybe some of the key lessons that we should be 275 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: paying attention to that maybe the larger reproductive freedom advocacy 276 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: kind of overlooks. 277 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 2: That's a great question. 278 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 5: I think one of the first ones is that black 279 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 5: folks have been a part of this movement, and black 280 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 5: folks have been having conversations about abortion for a very 281 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 5: long time, and black folks have been leading this movement, 282 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 5: have been organizing, have been working to provide safe abortions, 283 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 5: to help folks access safe abortions for years, you know, 284 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 5: and so this is abortion is also a black issue. 285 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 5: I think that was one of the key takeaways from 286 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 5: like a lot of our research and stuff in preparation 287 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 5: for that conversation between Quadril and Jackson and MSM. 288 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 4: Yeah. Ohough, there are so many lessons from this season 289 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 4: we still reflect on, even though it's our shortest season 290 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 4: to date. I think a lot about Miss Marie Leaner. 291 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 4: I know Martina probably can add to it. It was 292 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 4: a very emotional recording for our team. Mss Marie for 293 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 4: those who haven't listened, Mss Marie Leaner is a founding 294 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 4: member of the James, which was an underground abortion network 295 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 4: in Chicago that was operating in the sixties, so we're 296 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 4: talking pre Roe V. Wade, and she was one of 297 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 4: the only, if not the first, black woman members, right 298 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 4: helping just everyday families and pregnant folks in Chicago get 299 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 4: the care they needed but was not sort of being 300 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 4: provided by the state. And so to have an eighty 301 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 4: plus year old woman, an elder activist, really a legend 302 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 4: in our eyes. I can talk about superstar she is in, 303 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 4: but to sort of sit down with her, to have 304 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 4: the time with her, to hear about her stories, to 305 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 4: hear about her background growing up in Chicago, witnessing sort 306 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,359 Speaker 4: of all of your sort of activist movements just happening, 307 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 4: and really sort of finding her calling within this reproductive 308 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 4: justice movement. I think Barantina, we were talking earlier, you 309 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 4: talked a lot about how you know, just like this 310 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 4: arc is so long, right, and this work is not new, 311 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 4: and which is also why we sort of titled that 312 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 4: episode it's not no White Woman's Movement, because we've been 313 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 4: at the forefront of it. And I think too when 314 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 4: it comes to abortion care, even though it's not that 315 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 4: exact language that's sort of laid out in the tenants 316 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 4: for reproductive justice, the right to have a child and 317 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 4: the right to not have a child, the right to 318 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 4: parent a child in the safe environment, those are core tenants, right, 319 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 4: and so abortion is one sort of option people have 320 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 4: if they do not feel that they can whether it's 321 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 4: bringing the baby to full term, the pregnancy is not viable, 322 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 4: if there's sort of other sort of conditions, or if 323 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 4: it's just a personal decision that folks are making in 324 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 4: their best interests. And so I think we just took 325 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 4: away so many nuggets. I feel like mutual aid came 326 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 4: up a lot. How are folks supporting others and community 327 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 4: level and the absence of government, in the absence of 328 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 4: sort of state support, and so mutual aid comes up 329 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,199 Speaker 4: a lot. And I think we've been hearing that, especially 330 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 4: when the work that we do with natle because when 331 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 4: we think about it, five years ago was the beginning 332 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 4: of the pandemic. We also did not plan that when 333 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 4: NATO came out. So mutual aid, I think has been 334 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 4: this consistent theme of how black folks continue to organize 335 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 4: for and amongst each other, how we continue to build 336 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 4: power for and amongst each other. And so it's really 337 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 4: just stressing this sort of collectivism, if you will, this 338 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 4: sort of communal care. And I think that really just 339 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 4: sort of came through in all of our interviews in 340 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 4: that way. 341 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: Absolutely, So something else that has kind of generated a 342 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 1: lot of conversation in a post DABS era is like 343 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 1: digital privacy. You know, so all these conversations about oh, 344 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: take the period trackers off your phones and like, don't 345 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: be honest, and with all of these electronics and technology. 346 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 1: I wonder if there's anything that came up in your 347 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: researcher as you had conversations for this season that's surprise 348 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: you about digital privacy. 349 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 5: I laugh because I was one of those people, you know. 350 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 5: I was like, oh no, I deleted my period tracking app. 351 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 5: I was like, they're not going to get me. But 352 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 5: in our work this season and in speaking with the 353 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 5: legal folks and the advocates that we did, the challenge 354 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 5: is really less about the app of it all, and 355 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 5: it's really about the ways in which the government kind 356 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 5: of can use, or folks can use loopholes and archaic 357 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 5: laws on the books to really entrap black folks who 358 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 5: are looking for the kind of care that they need. 359 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 5: And I do want to make sure that I name 360 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 5: the folks that were featured in our episode about this topic, 361 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:51,360 Speaker 5: Eve Capierre, an Esquire lawyer based in Maryland, and then 362 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 5: doctor Jimiala Parrott, who is based in Washington, d C. 363 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 5: And they had a really great conversation around navigating the 364 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 5: legality of reproductive care, of abortion care, and how in 365 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 5: their work they're helping to fight for and protect black 366 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 5: folks who are facing legal repercussion or where the law 367 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 5: intersects with medicine. 368 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, I remember at the end of that episode too. 369 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 4: I think IgA is actually as serious or as heavy 370 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 4: as a topic people imagine this conversation to be. There's 371 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 4: actually a lot of lightness and a lot of the 372 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,880 Speaker 4: episodes a lot of humor, you know, so you might 373 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 4: cry and laugh maybe within the five minute span every episode. 374 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 4: But I remember towards the end, Ifga was like, girl, 375 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 4: if you want to use your period track and app, 376 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 4: use the app, you know. And so I think it's 377 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 4: like even the folks who are helping to fight legal 378 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,119 Speaker 4: cases right or go up against state and city governments 379 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 4: and trying to protect black folks and other folks sort 380 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 4: of rite to privacy. Folks are also saying you have 381 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 4: the right to make decisions for you if that is 382 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 4: a convenient means for you to keep track of your 383 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 4: cycle or other reproductive care needs, use what you have available. 384 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 4: And so I think that always stood out to me 385 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 4: in that way, right, And it wasn't her saying get 386 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 4: off of it, don't ever use it. You have to 387 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 4: go back analog and write everything by hand. And if 388 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:13,959 Speaker 4: you do so, that's fine. And so I thought that 389 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 4: that was really interesting that books that we talk to 390 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 4: and often are in community with, they're just really trying 391 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 4: to meet people where they are at right, And I 392 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 4: think that is always what stands out to me, especially 393 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 4: with their privacy conversation. 394 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 5: I think so much of this work is exactly that. 395 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 5: It's just yeah, meeting folks where they are, but they 396 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 5: have yeah. 397 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, And they also talked a lot about how challenging 398 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 4: it is, like especially for black folks, and thinking too 399 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 4: about like maybe even older black folks maybe like around 400 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 4: Martinez and nice parents' ages, if you will. So I 401 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,239 Speaker 4: guess they're seniors. They probably I don't know how they 402 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 4: feel about that terminology yet or approaching senior citizen age, 403 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 4: but you know, a lot of that kind of community 404 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 4: building in their world is Facebook and the kind of 405 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 4: other sort of digital apps. And so I think the 406 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 4: organizers and abba kids like doctor Janila, like Ifka, they're 407 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 4: also at a crossroads how you organize the very communities 408 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 4: that are the center of your work you care a 409 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 4: lot about, but are also being pushed farther and farther 410 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 4: to the margins and are being threatened the most, you know, 411 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 4: but it's still trying to sort of hold space for 412 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 4: all of this to exist because we deserve to have 413 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 4: the right tools to take care of ourselves, our families, 414 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 4: you know. So yeah, lots of good nuggets. 415 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, As y'all were talking, I had a very 416 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: very memory of like the calendar from the bank on 417 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: like our wall and home and seeing these like little 418 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: dots on random days and not knowing until much older 419 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 1: until what that was. That was my mom like period tracker, 420 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: right like. So we've been doing this, right like, of 421 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: course adapted with the tools now, but there are very 422 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,159 Speaker 1: analog as you mentioned, ways for people who are interested 423 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: in doing that as well. 424 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 4: Yeah, we've been doing we feel like we say that 425 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 4: a lot. We've been doing it. 426 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 2: Nothing is new, nothing is new. 427 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: So so much of NATO involves like storytelling, right Like, 428 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 1: that's kind of the heart of what the podcast is. 429 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 1: How do you feel like storytelling and narrative can be 430 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 1: helpful to shaping like public perception as well as policy. 431 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 4: Storytelling is a critical aspect of this work. It's a 432 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 4: critical aspect of creating new cultural narratives. And that's a 433 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 4: huge part of not just sort of like informing and educating, 434 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 4: but also in the reimagination of what our political systems 435 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 4: and landscape can look like in terms of how we 436 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 4: can reimagine our relationship with our own selves, with each other, 437 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 4: how we connect past and present to the future. Storytelling 438 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 4: has always been a vehicle for black folks, for us, 439 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 4: and so really for us, it's thinking about how we 440 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 4: reclaim the oral tradition, which is very much an African tradition. 441 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 4: It's an indigenous tradition of how do we sort of 442 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 4: continue to die, document our stories and share them and 443 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 4: preserve them, and also think about them as really I 444 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 4: guess a roadmap, if you will. They help us to 445 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 4: really navigate how to move forward. They give us critical 446 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 4: insights into maybe what has worked, how to pivot, how 447 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 4: to respond to ruling such as Adob's decision. And I 448 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 4: think it's just such a critical aspect of this work, 449 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 4: and I think it's a radical part of this work, right. 450 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 4: And I think the way that we think about Needle 451 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 4: is really passing the microphone to everyday families, right, which 452 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 4: is the bulk of our interviews over the past five years, 453 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 4: it's been to everyday families, families that want to be heard, 454 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 4: want to sort of share, want to process their experiences. 455 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 4: We pass the microphone to them to allow them to 456 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 4: have I guess a dedicated space to really reflect and 457 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,880 Speaker 4: also start to even reimagine what care can look like, 458 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 4: what it should look like. So it's a really interactive exercise, 459 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 4: not just for entertainment, even though we are podcasts in 460 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 4: that way, but we're really thinking about how do we 461 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 4: sort of use an oral tradition to reclaim and reimagine 462 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 4: and really use our memories as a north star if you. 463 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 5: Will, yes, I'll also say that storytelling can be very healing, 464 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 5: and so as Gabrielle was speaking to, you know, the 465 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 5: opportunity to reflect, it to chance for people to I 466 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 5: think for many of the families that we've spoken to, 467 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 5: this is the first time that they've ever shared a 468 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 5: story like this. This is sometimes the first time they've 469 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 5: ever spoken about their experiences in this kind of way, 470 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 5: and there's something that can be very therapeutic about that, 471 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 5: and there's also something that can be helped to forge 472 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 5: connection and community. I think storytelling is an active community 473 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 5: it's a way for people to build intimacy and vulnerability 474 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 5: and to be seen and held, even if we're not 475 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 5: in a physical space to get Because much of what 476 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 5: NATAL has done has been virtual and through digital channels, 477 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 5: it's still an opportunity for people to come together and 478 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 5: say I see you, I hear you, I feel you, 479 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 5: I'm holding you, I'm hugging you. And that's a big 480 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 5: part of NATAL, even the way that we think about 481 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 5: how we've cared for our storytellers after they've shared stories 482 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 5: with us, and offering care sessions with the license psychotherapist 483 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 5: in case there's anything they want to unpack. It's really 484 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 5: about giving people the chance to offload if they need to, 485 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 5: in addition to the dreaming and the reclaiming and the reimagining, 486 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 5: like they all go hand in hand. 487 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing that. I sometimes listen 488 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: to podcasts that are of course entertaining and like engaging, 489 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 1: but you can tell like people are sharing some pretty 490 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: heavy stuff. And I don't know that I've ever heard 491 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 1: anybody talk about like a postcare like this is how 492 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: we take care of our interviewees after it. And of 493 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: course it's such a black woman thing to do. Right, Like, 494 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,199 Speaker 1: of course you thought of like, Okay, they've opened this 495 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: thing up, like they may need care afterwards. So I 496 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: really appreciate that both, that's a part of your approach 497 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: with that You've also shared that because I don't feel 498 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,719 Speaker 1: like I've heard that anywhere else in terms of podcasting. 499 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:13,719 Speaker 2: Thank you. 500 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 5: I haven't worked on many podcasts where that's a practice. 501 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 5: But we know, yeah, we knew we could not leave 502 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 5: people high and dry. And I think coming into this 503 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 5: project as storytellers of people who have worked in the 504 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 5: industry and podcasting, there is an element to we don't 505 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 5: consider ourselves journalists, but there is an element to the 506 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 5: world in which we navigate and we do some of 507 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 5: this work that can be exploitative, that can tap into 508 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 5: black communities for their stories and then just leave them 509 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 5: hanging there. And we were like, how can we We 510 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 5: don't want to recreate that, Like, we want our work 511 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:54,199 Speaker 5: to be restorative and reparative, So what is an alternative 512 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 5: that will allow that work to be in that way? 513 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 5: So it's important. 514 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: For us from our conversation after the break, So this 515 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: is not something that is necessarily native to your word, 516 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: but something you said made me think of it. What 517 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: does it look like to preserve the oral tradition in 518 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: a digital world. 519 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 2: That's a great question. 520 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,479 Speaker 7: Weally love that, not all the topic, but it just 521 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 7: made me think of it like, cause you're right, like 522 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 7: so much of what we know is like just word 523 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 7: of mouth passed down, right, And I feel like there 524 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 7: is such powerful storytelling happening right now, And then I 525 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 7: think about, how do we make sure that, like, five 526 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 7: generations from now, somebody can access this story. 527 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 5: I mean, I think it's a lot of what we're 528 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 5: all doing, even the work that you're doing, doctor Joy 529 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 5: and documenting people's stories, documenting experiences, documenting people's practices, all 530 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 5: of this is something that because it's recorded and and 531 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 5: we can save it, it's something that people will be 532 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 5: able to hopefully refer back to. And I think that's 533 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 5: part of the reason why I love podcasts, because of 534 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 5: the oral tradition element of it. I think audio is 535 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 5: one of the most intimate forms of media that we have. 536 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 5: I always say it feels like someone is right like 537 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 5: whispering into your ear, behind your shoulder, like someone is 538 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 5: right there with you, And that really lends itself to 539 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 5: the oral tradition in that art form and so I 540 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 5: think more recently, Gabrielle and I have started thinking of 541 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 5: podcasting and our audio work as a form of archiving, 542 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 5: as a form of oral history and kind of bringing 543 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 5: along this oral tradition into the current day and making 544 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 5: sure that we are doing our part to preserve it 545 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 5: for the future. 546 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, and even if you know, future generations aren't sort 547 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 4: of tapped into the RSSS speed, we hope that, you know, 548 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 4: over the years, we're continuing to adapt Needle so that 549 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 4: it continues to be available and accessible, you know. And 550 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 4: I think that's always been a big part of Natal. 551 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 4: We've always had the podcast as the anchor. Of course, 552 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 4: even when we start about the first season, we also 553 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 4: built out digital programming, you know, and thinking about, okay, 554 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 4: maybe folks in and listen, or maybe they did and 555 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 4: want to go a little deeper, but regardless, we're going 556 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 4: to meet them here on Zoom, or we're going to 557 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 4: meet them sort of on ig live, which everybody was 558 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 4: on writing that first year or two of the pandemic. 559 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 4: But thinking about how do we sort of document in 560 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 4: different spaces so that folks can kind of again we 561 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 4: can meet people where they're at and make sure that 562 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 4: they're continuing to feel engaged and care for and not 563 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 4: sort of like if you didn't listen to podcast, shame 564 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 4: on you. There's no shame in any of that. We're 565 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 4: trying to sort of think about different ways to sort 566 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 4: of really sort of I guess, bring Natal to life, 567 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 4: bring me stories to life. So thinking about how we've 568 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 4: we built out a conversation guy that first season, and 569 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 4: even as recently as last year we had our first 570 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 4: in person programming Doctor Joy, and we are thinking both 571 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 4: Martina and I individually and with Natal, thinking a lot 572 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 4: about our programming and partnerships with cultural institutions, and so 573 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 4: we were really fortunate that we partnered with the Los 574 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 4: Angeles County Museum of Art LACKMA for their big Simon 575 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 4: Lee opening celebration. We helped to co present that family 576 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 4: day of programming where we got to introduce families across 577 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 4: Los Angeles to really beautiful black care traditions and ritual practices. 578 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 4: In this case, it was black doll making workshops that 579 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 4: we had for families. And so thinking a lot about 580 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 4: how the stories that we talk about or she get 581 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 4: a chance to share on Natal, thinking a lot about 582 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 4: black care traditions and secial traditions, how do we sort 583 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 4: of make that, you know, available to sort of like 584 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 4: young kids or new families or elders who might want 585 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 4: like a different type of experience and art maybe so 586 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 4: much on the podcast, So I think we're also thinking 587 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 4: about the documentation happening in different spaces as well, and 588 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 4: really just trying to sort of I don't know, it 589 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 4: is not really say ahead of the curve in that way, 590 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 4: but I don't know the podcast will always be the thing, 591 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,120 Speaker 4: right but we know right now we've got this feed, 592 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 4: We've got an audience, but we want to continue to 593 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 4: sort of find other spaces where folks can continue to 594 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 4: sort of really reflect on care in this very expansive 595 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 4: and like liberatory way. 596 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 5: I think it goes back to what we were saying 597 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 5: before about meeting people where they are. We're just kind 598 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 5: of giving more touch points and trying to meet folks 599 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 5: in different kinds of places and engage them in different 600 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 5: ways that feel natural and authentic and organic. 601 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: And as your influence continues to grow, like how do 602 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: you see NATO continuing to expand the conversation, Like what 603 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: are the topics that you have encouraged that you're thinking 604 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: about maybe for future seasons or future outreach efforts. 605 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 4: That's a good question. Hm, I'll go with the future topics. Well, 606 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 4: I'll say this. You know, as NATO was celebrating five 607 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 4: years this year, we're really excited about that, and we're 608 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 4: also thinking about what does the next five years in 609 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 4: NATO look like. So I think, just sort of piggybacking 610 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 4: off of the last question, we're thinking a lot about 611 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 4: what does it look like to continue to document these stories, 612 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 4: what stories have we not got into, what does it 613 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 4: look like to form different types of partnerships, perhaps for 614 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,479 Speaker 4: these oral stories to live in other permanent places as well. 615 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 4: Topic wise, we are always always trying to get back 616 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 4: down to the South, and you can kind of notice 617 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 4: it if you've listened to all three seasons. We always 618 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 4: end up in the South. Every finale, every sort of episode, 619 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 4: at least one episode is like we're just you just 620 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 4: hear our love for the South. I think that there's 621 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 4: so much that we oftentimes discount about the South. It's 622 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 4: easy to sort of for many to sort of disregard it, 623 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 4: but that is where the majority of black folks live. 624 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 4: We're thinking about, you know, the restrictions on abortion care, 625 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 4: you're thinking about the growing maternal deserts around the country, 626 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 4: it's the South that is being hit the hardest. So 627 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 4: when we engage with families and birth workers and advocates 628 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 4: who are living these policies out day to day or 629 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 4: fighting against them and resisting in many ways, it's the 630 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 4: South that holds the answers. So we're always excited about 631 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 4: finding new ways to get back to the South microphone, 632 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 4: to more Southern storytellers and to really hear how black 633 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 4: folks are reimagining what care can be because they've already 634 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 4: been doing that, you know, And so we really look 635 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 4: to the South as our north star, honestly, So we're 636 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 4: always excited about who else we can kind of engage 637 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 4: in that region. So that's always high on the list 638 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 4: in terms of topics. 639 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, plus one hundred to all that. 640 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 1: Who do you think might be like an unlikely listener 641 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: for NATO and why do you think they should be 642 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,280 Speaker 1: listening even though they might not seem like the core audience. 643 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 5: I'm going to say that if you know anyone who 644 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 5: has the propensity to get pregnant, natal is something that 645 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 5: you should be listening to because this touches all of 646 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 5: us we all know someone who has gone through pregnancy 647 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 5: or had a baby. We all know someone who's had 648 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 5: an abortion. We all have people in our lives that 649 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,359 Speaker 5: need us to show up for them. So whether you 650 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 5: are the person who is experiencing that or the person 651 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 5: who's standing beside them, I think natal offers some education, 652 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 5: some insights, but also just you know, language, How can 653 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 5: we show up and really live out some of these values, 654 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:26,320 Speaker 5: these radical values of communal care, of radical acceptance of love. 655 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 5: So I think that maybe some of the more unlikely 656 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 5: listeners have been like men and partners, my dad listens. 657 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 5: But I'm also like it shouldn't be unlikely, like you 658 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 5: should be listening. You have you know, you are a 659 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 5: parent yourself. My father wishes to be your grandparent one day, 660 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 5: Like these are things that you should be listening to. 661 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 5: So I really feel like we center black birthing people, 662 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 5: black women, black gender expansive people. But it's something that 663 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 5: I think anybody can really get valuable insights from. 664 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,439 Speaker 1: So much of the conversation around black maternal feels heavy right, 665 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: Like it is a heavy topic because a lot has 666 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: not gone right or black and pregnant folks. But I 667 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 1: also feel like there is a conversation to be had 668 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,520 Speaker 1: about how joy still exists in that place, and you 669 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 1: y'all already talked about it, like there's some levity to 670 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: your episodes too, and like you know, black people are 671 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 1: just kind of in hearly funny, like we tell there's 672 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,359 Speaker 1: always joy mixed with the pain, right, So what role 673 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: would you say joy has as a part of this story. 674 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 5: That's a great question. It's always been important for us 675 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 5: to share the full range of experiences. So we've never 676 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 5: come at this as like we're just here highlighting what's scary, 677 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 5: what's negative, what's bad, and the trauma, because while, like 678 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 5: you said, those stories are very real, there are also 679 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 5: people having beautiful and empowered and affirming experiences and receiving 680 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 5: the care that they deserve and that we all deserve, 681 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 5: and we need to highlight those people those stories, and 682 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,280 Speaker 5: the people who are providing that care and the people 683 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 5: who are fighting for that care. And so I think 684 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,800 Speaker 5: that the joy is really guiding light for this work. 685 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 5: You know, when we connect with birth workers, when we 686 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 5: connect with organizers and advocates and providers, they bring joy 687 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 5: to the conversation because they know what this could look 688 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 5: like and what this should look like, and it's infectious. 689 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 5: And so I think that we need the joy to 690 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 5: keep us going. We need the joy because the joy 691 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 5: is the goal. The joy is the destination, you know, 692 00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 5: and it's why we're here, because we want these experiences 693 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 5: to be full of joy. 694 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 2: And so it kind of has to be the thing 695 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 2: that guides us forward. 696 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 4: Couldn't have said that better myself. The thing that I 697 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 4: just stood at, just joys necessary for liberation, And yeah, 698 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 4: it is the guiding light truly in many ways. And 699 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 4: I think, you know, to Martinez point, even when we 700 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 4: started with the first season, we were getting clear feedback 701 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:59,319 Speaker 4: from Midwise and from some mentors. There's obviously very clear 702 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 4: data us to know that black women are experiencing pregnancy 703 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,279 Speaker 4: related complications and mortality at far higher rates than other 704 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,919 Speaker 4: races here in the country. And on the other side 705 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 4: of those numbers are also black birth and folks who 706 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 4: are experiencing some of the most joyful and beautiful experiences 707 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 4: of care. And so all of those stories deserve to 708 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 4: be told. So I think admittedly with each season, we've 709 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 4: got it better with that balance. Again, to my point, earlier, 710 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 4: we were so afraid, you know, five years ago, I 711 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 4: feel like baby versions of ourselves in many ways. But 712 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 4: we were just so afraid to people who curious about pregnancy, 713 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 4: curious about what this might look like for us, For 714 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 4: friends of ours who were experiencing, whether it's egg freezing 715 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 4: or miscarriages or really having trouble navigating postpartum, we were 716 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 4: seeing sometimes the sort of sharpest edges of it, if 717 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 4: you will. But I think in doing this work, I 718 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 4: think it softened us in a lot of ways, because 719 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 4: it's necessary to hold space for all of it. And 720 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 4: obviously we're trying to create new narratives that can kind 721 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,240 Speaker 4: of give birth to new systems of care. And obviously 722 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 4: there are folks who are still, unfortunately, just proportionately so, 723 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 4: just experiencing just terrible care, terrible care that does not 724 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,800 Speaker 4: center their well being, does not sort of value them 725 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 4: as a human right. And so we are thinking a 726 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 4: lot about continuing to lift up those stories and then 727 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 4: also making sure folks know what's possible on the other end, 728 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 4: what's possible with the reimagining, and why the reimagining is 729 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 4: so so necessary to this work. 730 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: Too beautiful, Thank y'll so much for sharing that. So 731 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: where can folks stay connected with you, Where can we 732 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,840 Speaker 1: find you online? And where can we check out Natle? 733 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 5: Well, we can listen to natal wherever you get to 734 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 5: your podcasts, and you can follow Needle on Instagram and Twitter, 735 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,400 Speaker 5: and you can also get our newsletter. If you go 736 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,920 Speaker 5: to our website, you can send up to subscribe and 737 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 5: get updates there Natal Story. 738 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,800 Speaker 4: Everything's Natle Stories perfect. 739 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: We'll be sure to include all of that in the 740 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: show notes. Thank y'all so much for spending some time 741 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:10,879 Speaker 1: with me today. I appreciate it. 742 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,720 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having us. 743 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 4: Thank you for having us. 744 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:20,319 Speaker 1: True, of course, I'm so glad Gabrielle and Martina were 745 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: able to join me for this conversation to learn more 746 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 1: about them and to check out the work they're doing 747 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 1: at NATLE. Be sure to visit the show notes at 748 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,400 Speaker 1: Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash Natle. Did you know 749 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,239 Speaker 1: you can leave a voicemail with your questions for the podcast. 750 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 1: If you want to suggest movies or books for us 751 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,800 Speaker 1: to review, or even if you have thoughts about topics 752 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 1: you'd like to hear discussed. Drop us a message at 753 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: Memo dot fm, slash Therapy for Black Girls and let 754 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: us know what's on your mind, we just might feature 755 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,280 Speaker 1: it on the podcast. If you're looking for a therapist 756 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy for 757 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot com slash directory. This episode was produced by 758 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 1: Elise Ellis in Day two vou and Tiree Rush. Editing 759 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 1: was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for 760 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: joining me again this week. Until next time, take good care,