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Speaker 1: This is Dana Perkins and you're listening to Switched on

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Speaker 1: the BNF podcast. Those who are interested in reducing their

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Speaker 1: carbon footprint, they may have heard of meat free Mondays,

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Speaker 1: but what about dairy free Monday, Because today we're talking

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Speaker 1: about another heavy emitter, dairy cows, and whether or not

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Speaker 1: plant based milks might be able to provide a greener

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Speaker 1: alternative to this established industry. The dairy sector relies on

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Speaker 1: two hundred and seventy million cows globally to produce over

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Speaker 1: six hundred million tons of milk every year, and when

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Speaker 1: combined with livestock, their annual greenhouse gas emissions are five

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Speaker 1: point eight percent of the global total. When converted to

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Speaker 1: CO two equivalents, this comes to about two point nine

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Speaker 1: gigatons of CO two emissions. The obvious alternative to dairy

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Speaker 1: might be plant based milks, a drink that goes back

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Speaker 1: centuries in some parts of the world, but in Western

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Speaker 1: culture it's only recently become a phenomenon. So just how

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Speaker 1: green are plant based milk alternatives and what options are

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Speaker 1: there out there? How realistic are they real as an

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Speaker 1: alternative to dairy. To find out more in today's episode,

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Speaker 1: I Speak with Sara Raza, a technology and innovations analyst

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Speaker 1: at B and EF based in New York. Together, we

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Speaker 1: discuss the varieties of different plant based alternatives and their

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Speaker 1: benefits as well as their drawbacks, including their ecological footprint

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Speaker 1: and water use. We also discuss the businesses behind the

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Speaker 1: sector and some of the major companies invested in this space,

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Speaker 1: as well as the politics behind the milk industry in

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Speaker 1: the United States in particular, and how the USDA treats

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Speaker 1: dairy and plant based milks very differently. As always, if

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Speaker 1: you like this podcast, make sure to subscribe and you'll

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Speaker 1: receive an update on future episodes as they're published. And

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Speaker 1: if you give us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify,

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Speaker 1: it'll make us more discoverable by others. But right now,

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Speaker 1: let's jump into our conversation about the dairy industry and

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Speaker 1: its alternatives with Sara. Sara, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: coming back to the show today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me again.

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Speaker 1: So we're here today to talk about dairy milk and

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Speaker 1: milk alternatives. And I certainly am a lover of cheese,

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Speaker 1: but I am also a lover of all of the

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Speaker 1: different dairy milks. I've probably tried everyone that has come

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Speaker 1: across my cup of coffee at one point or another.

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Speaker 1: But as we get into this, I hoped you could

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Speaker 1: really frame, I guess the problem, which is really the

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Speaker 1: emissions associated with dairy milk when we think about this

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Speaker 1: from a climate standpoint. So what is the problem and

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Speaker 1: where is dairy milk sit within emissions?

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Speaker 2: Well, that's a great question.

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Speaker 3: So I think often dairy kind of gets ignored as a.

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Speaker 2: Huge source of emissions globally.

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Speaker 3: The dairy industry relies on a ground two hundred and

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Speaker 3: seventy million cows to produce over six hundred million tons

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Speaker 3: of milk annually. Obviously, all of this occupies seven percent

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Speaker 3: of the world's land. And in terms of emissions, I mean,

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Speaker 3: we can go into comparing emissions between dairy and other

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Speaker 3: plant based alternatives, but just as a little summary statistic,

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Speaker 3: dairy milk is often three times or more emissions intensive

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Speaker 3: than all plant based alternatives.

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Speaker 1: Can you go into some detail around on a farm,

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Speaker 1: how those emissions break down and which activities on a

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Speaker 1: farm really comprise the different parts of that emissions pie

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Speaker 1: for this.

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Speaker 3: Group, absolutely, Yeah, So it is pretty difficult to assign

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Speaker 3: emissions of a single dairy cow to the milk product

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Speaker 3: in the life cycle of a farm, because as you know,

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Speaker 3: on a farm, many cows are also used for beef products.

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Speaker 3: But BENAF has come up with an estimate of greenhouse

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Speaker 3: gas emissions on a US dairy farm, and we've come

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Speaker 3: up with the total emissions coming from methane being about

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Speaker 3: six thousand, four hundred kilograms of CO two equivalents, and

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Speaker 3: that methane comes largely from the animal as you know

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Speaker 3: more popularly as cow fats, and around twenty to thirty

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Speaker 3: percent of that from manure storage. Nitrous oxide is actually

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Speaker 3: another concern which I think people really overlook and have

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Speaker 3: no idea that that's a really really potent gas coming

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Speaker 3: from dairy farms across the world. But in terms of nitrosoxide,

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Speaker 3: that's around one thousand, three hundred kilograms of CO two equivalent.

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Speaker 3: And these statistics, by the way, are per cow, So

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Speaker 3: the lot of emissions per cow for methane nitrosoxide, and

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Speaker 3: then you've got a little CO two and some other

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Speaker 3: other indirect emissions from the soil.

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Speaker 1: And on a per cow basis, But are these larger

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Speaker 1: small operations because one of the things that we certainly

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Speaker 1: see across other parts of plant based agricultures. These can

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Speaker 1: differ from different parts of the world in terms of

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Speaker 1: whether or not they're highly fragmented in small farmers or

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Speaker 1: really large, industrial grade operations. Where do most of the

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Speaker 1: cow and dairy farms. Where do they fall? Are they smaller?

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Speaker 2: They large?

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Speaker 3: Most of the cow and dairy farms in the US

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Speaker 3: are extreme large operations. If you choose somewhere like a

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Speaker 3: New Zealand dairy farm there, emissions naturally would be a

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Speaker 3: lot lower, just because they're not as water intensive, using

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Speaker 3: as many facilities, using as much energy on the farm.

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Speaker 3: A lot of those are also free range farms and

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Speaker 3: have a lot of cattle grazing out in the open,

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Speaker 3: with a lot more land. We're obviously very land constrained

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Speaker 3: in the US here, so it's a lot tighter, a

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Speaker 3: lot more factory farming.

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Speaker 1: One of the considerations around plant based alternatives is also

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Speaker 1: water usage. But let's talk about a little of the

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Speaker 1: water usage associated with dairy.

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Speaker 3: Freshwater use is extremely extremely high for dairy milk, and

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Speaker 3: is actually mainly a result of actually producing the feed

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Speaker 3: for the cattle, something that's obviously avoided when producing plant

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Speaker 3: based alternatives, And a way I like to view it

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Speaker 3: in my head is if you imagine, when you're producing

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Speaker 3: dairy milk, you go crop through cow to a glass

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Speaker 3: of milk, whereas when you go for plant based alternative,

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Speaker 3: it's just crop to a glass of milk. So you're

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Speaker 3: avoiding this entire fresh water use on an entire farm,

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Speaker 3: producing feed for cattle, consuming cattle, cleaning dairy operations, cooling

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Speaker 3: of facilities, sanitation, waste disposal systems.

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Speaker 2: This is all.

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Speaker 3: Contributing to high water consumption. And in terms of comparing

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Speaker 3: this water use between dairy and alternatives, around six hundred

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Speaker 3: and thirty liters of water is used per liter of

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Speaker 3: milk produced, compared to around I don't know, let's take

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Speaker 3: soy milk of twenty eight liters for each liter of

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Speaker 3: soy produced.

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Speaker 1: Well, actually, so then that's the perfect segue to get

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Speaker 1: into some of these plant based alternatives. Now, we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about consumer adoption a little bit later in the show,

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Speaker 1: because certainly there is a place in many people's lives

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Speaker 1: for plant based alternatives, not from an emission standpoint, but

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Speaker 1: just because of consumer preference. But let's really break it

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Speaker 1: down in terms of what are the benefits on a

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Speaker 1: climate standpoint, so soy, you brought that one up already,

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Speaker 1: let's go into that. What are I guess, maybe the

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Speaker 1: benefits when you compare it from an emissions, land use,

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Speaker 1: water standpoint. Give me the lowdown on where soy fits

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Speaker 1: in this space.

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Speaker 3: So soy was actually the most popular milk once upon

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Speaker 3: a time. Recently that has been taken over by oat

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Speaker 3: and almond milk and kind of some of the newer entrants,

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Speaker 3: but soy still is a staple, especially across Asia and

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Speaker 3: Southeast Asia where that is the main primary alternative milk consumed.

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Speaker 3: So in terms of emissions, soy milk actually produces less

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Speaker 3: than one kilogram of CO two equivalent per liter of

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Speaker 3: soy milk produced. And just to put that into perspective

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Speaker 3: for a dairy milk lita, that's around three point two.

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Speaker 3: So that's significantly less than dairy milk. And again I

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Speaker 3: mentioned for fresh water use. Again it's actually the least

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Speaker 3: water intensive plant based milk out there. How I like

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Speaker 3: to view it for each of the plant based alternatives

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Speaker 3: is it's really a toss up between how much land

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Speaker 3: actually producing that crop takes up, how much fresh woolter

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Speaker 3: use you'll using and the emissions intensity. I get this

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Speaker 3: question a lot of which milk is the best. The

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Speaker 3: answer is, there isn't actually one milk that prevails overall.

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Speaker 3: Like you're asking about soy, which yes, is great in

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Speaker 3: terms of fresh wool to use, but has slightly higher

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Speaker 3: emissions than some of the other milks.

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Speaker 1: So there are trade offs when it comes to I

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Speaker 1: assume also nutritional benefit for these things, and you have

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Speaker 1: to think about what it is that you're looking to optimize. Now,

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Speaker 1: So we're using this term soy milk. Are we talking

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Speaker 1: about it in its liquid form? Or is this actually

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Speaker 1: a term that we're using to account for all generally

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Speaker 1: soy derivative products that would therefore replace maybe cheese and

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Speaker 1: what we'd largely refer to as the dairy industry, or

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Speaker 1: we very specifically talking about in the liquid How I

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Speaker 1: would think of milk.

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Speaker 2: Form M Yeah, no, that's a great question.

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Speaker 3: So when we talk about milks, we are talking about

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Speaker 3: the actual grinding of the nut or the legome such

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Speaker 3: as soy, and changing that into a milk alternative, which

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Speaker 3: basically just means mixing that with water a bunch of

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Speaker 3: other nutrients to produce this liquid that is similar to milk,

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Speaker 3: which is why I actually prefer the term plant based alternative.

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Speaker 3: I think is a little bit clearer than saying oat

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Speaker 3: milk or soy milk, because obviously it's not milk. But

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Speaker 3: then when we're talking about cheese and ice cream and

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Speaker 3: even as of recently, chocolate and all these other products,

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Speaker 3: it's easier, I think, in those situations to directly refer

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Speaker 3: to the products such as almond based cheese or oat

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Speaker 3: based ice cream.

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Speaker 1: Right because oftentimes, you know, I think of soy, and

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Speaker 1: I think about the fact that it's an alternative sometimes

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Speaker 1: to the meat side of things, as a sort of

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Speaker 1: harder but still wiggly protein that it can be inserted

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Speaker 1: into certain meals. So we're decidedly not talking about that.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about these dairy alternatives.

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Speaker 3: And soy is actually very very popular for meat alternatives.

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Speaker 3: It's actually a base of most plant based protein in

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Speaker 3: terms of meat. But what's funny is I feel like

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Speaker 3: the dairy industry does not get the same recognition as

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Speaker 3: the meat industry.

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Speaker 1: Well, and you had mentioned that soy is extremely popular

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Speaker 1: in Asia, and I'm thinking of another thing that is

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Speaker 1: consumed in mass in Asia, which is rice definitely a

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Speaker 1: staple of the diet, and I'm wondering how rice milk

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Speaker 1: then compares, in particular in that market.

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Speaker 3: In Southeast Asia, rice milk is not popular at all.

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Speaker 1: And Southeast Asia being the largest producer of rice anywhere

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Speaker 1: in the world.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, which is so ironic, most of that rice is

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Speaker 3: actually exported out to other countries and in terms of

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Speaker 3: actually their own consumption in Asia because of lactose intolerance

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Speaker 3: being a really popular issue across most of the continent

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Speaker 3: of Asia over the years, soy before the times of

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Speaker 3: the Western world deciding oh, this is a great alternative

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Speaker 3: to plant based, this is a great alternative to milk,

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Speaker 3: This is a great alternative to meat. Asia as an

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Speaker 3: entire continent has been farming and producing soy based desserts,

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Speaker 3: soy based milk, soy based foods for a very long time.

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Speaker 3: I mean even just take Tofu for example, that's a

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Speaker 3: soybean based food ingredient which is very popular. So no,

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Speaker 3: rice milk is not widely consumed across Southeast Asia. It's

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Speaker 3: really soy milk. But rice milk actually has a lot

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Speaker 3: of the same benefits as soy. I would say the

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Speaker 3: only disadvantage to rice milk over soy milk is that

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Speaker 3: rice milk is one of the most water intensive milks,

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Speaker 3: purely because a lot of that rice is grown in

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Speaker 3: rice paddies needing water.

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Speaker 1: So, since we're looking at these plant based alternatives in

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Speaker 1: terms of emissions, water, and then also land use, which

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Speaker 1: we haven't really gotten into across those three things. If

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Speaker 1: you're just comparing soy and rice to one another as

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Speaker 1: plant based alternatives in this dairy category, how do they

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Speaker 1: compare to one another?

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Speaker 3: So, across all plant based milk alternatives, rice milk is

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Speaker 3: the most emissions intense of milk, with around one point

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Speaker 3: two kilograms of CO two equivalent emitted per liter of

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Speaker 3: milk produced. While it is plant based, so it still

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Speaker 3: avoids the enteric fermentation that's associated with cattle rearing. But

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Speaker 3: rice must be grown in standing water, which provides a

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Speaker 3: breeding ground for methane producing bacteria, which is why its

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Speaker 3: emissions are so high, which compared to soy that's just

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Speaker 3: not present. SOI has one of the lowest emissions actually

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Speaker 3: and is seventeen percent less than rice based milk in

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Speaker 3: terms of water. Again, rice milk is significantly worse than

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Speaker 3: soy milk, producing around two hundred and seventy liters per

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Speaker 3: liter of milk produced soy at you know, a very

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Speaker 3: tiny twenty eight liters. Again due to what I just

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Speaker 3: said about being grown in standing water, usually in rice paddies,

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Speaker 3: and a lot of water is actually needed then to

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Speaker 3: produce the milk as the crop needs more water. In

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Speaker 3: terms of land uses a bit.

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Speaker 2: Of a different situation.

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Speaker 3: They're very equal with soy milk, just using a little

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Speaker 3: bit more land than rice. And the main reason for

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Speaker 3: that is soy and oat milks. I kind of group

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Speaker 3: those two together quite often because the crop has grown

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Speaker 3: in a very similar way. It's grown across monoculture, which

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Speaker 3: is kind of large areas of forest needed to grow

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Speaker 3: this crop on flat land, which obviously takes up a

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Speaker 3: lot more land than a vertical standing plant.

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Speaker 1: But surely the monoculture problem could be solved if the

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Speaker 1: farming practices followed it so the way that it currently stands.

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Speaker 1: And of course we have to talk about what's actually

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Speaker 1: happening in the market right now, but there are opportunities

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Speaker 1: within this space to innovate further and to bring down

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Speaker 1: some of the negative drawbacks of some of these I

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Speaker 1: guess just as there are within dairy, because there's certainly

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Speaker 1: advancements being made in terms of food additives for cows.

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Speaker 1: So this whole conversation could and hopefully will change as

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Speaker 1: we go into the future in terms of technology development.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. I mean, we have companies now innovating in

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Speaker 3: pea milk. We have companies innovating in something called precision fermentation,

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Speaker 3: which is actually producing real day milk but from casin

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Speaker 3: and way powder, so actually doesn't involve cattle but takes

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Speaker 3: the protein. And so there are a lot of innovations.

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Speaker 3: But right now, almond milk actually prevails in the US

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Speaker 3: as the most popular milk.

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Speaker 1: So almond milk, since it is the most popular, we've

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Speaker 1: been through story, We've been through rice, let's talk about

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Speaker 1: almond milk. It's the lowest from an emission standpoint, but

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Speaker 1: highest from a water usage standpoint and hugely popular. So

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Speaker 1: not just from a overview of what it is from

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Speaker 1: a climate standpoint, let's talk about the market opportunity and adoption.

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Speaker 1: How much money is flowing into this space and how

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Speaker 1: popular is it really.

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Speaker 3: We have in the note a chot that shows the

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Speaker 3: annual sales of plant based milk, and all together, plant

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Speaker 3: based milk sales between twenty seventeen and twenty twenty two

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Speaker 3: has reached twelve billion US dollars in the US, which

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Speaker 3: is a crazy amount of money, and most of that

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Speaker 3: money has actually gone to almond milk, with sales of

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Speaker 3: almond milk just lost year in twenty two twenty two

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Speaker 3: reaching one point five billion in the US. And some

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Speaker 3: of those key players in the market, you definitely have

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Speaker 3: heard some of those names.

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Speaker 2: We have companies like Danon who.

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Speaker 3: Actually own some of the brands that a lot of

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Speaker 3: people drink that are probably not even aware that Danon

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Speaker 3: owns some of those brands.

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Speaker 2: Such as Silk altpro So Delicious.

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Speaker 3: I mean, Silk is the most popular almond milk brand

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Speaker 3: owned by Danon. And there are a ton of new

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Speaker 3: companies entering this space as well as ones that you

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Speaker 3: know like Ala, Chobani, General Mills who own a lot

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Speaker 3: of these smaller companies.

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Speaker 1: Gosh, I know so many of these and I have

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Speaker 1: at various points in time eaten most of them.

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Speaker 2: So there we go.

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Speaker 1: But when we talk about the water intensity with almond

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Speaker 1: milk specifically, and you referred to the note, and I

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Speaker 1: know that a picture is worth a thousand words, but

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Speaker 1: we are an inherently audio format, so we are going

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Speaker 1: to stick on trying to explain all of these rankings

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Speaker 1: to all of you in this way. It takes five

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Speaker 1: years of water to grow single almond. How does that

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Speaker 1: then translate into, like, for like, the same amount of

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Speaker 1: a lid of almond milk. So you'd mentioned earlier around

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Speaker 1: six hundred and thirty liters of water to create one

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Speaker 1: liter of dairy milk, how many liters of water does

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Speaker 1: it take to make one lid of almond milk?

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Speaker 3: Almond milk is the most water intensive milk of all

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Speaker 3: of them, and compared to that six hundred and thirty figure,

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Speaker 3: almond milk is around three hundred and seventy liters of

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Speaker 3: water to produce one liter of milk. And this high

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Speaker 3: level of water consumption is a huge challenge the almond

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Speaker 3: production today because obviously eighty percent of the world's almonds

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Speaker 3: are produced in California, which I think everyone knows has

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Speaker 3: been under a drought emergency proclamation until very recently, and

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty one was actually the second driest year on

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Speaker 3: record due to extreme heat and lack of rain and

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Speaker 3: As of now, only fifteen percent of California remains in drought,

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Speaker 3: which is a really positive thing for producing almonds. However,

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Speaker 3: this is still a huge issue in producing almond milk

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Speaker 3: that it needs this huge quantity of freshwater.

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Speaker 1: And this really isn't taking into consideration the emissions associated

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Speaker 1: with shipping, is it, Because when you think about dairy,

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Speaker 1: it's quite locally produced near where you live. Where if

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Speaker 1: we have so much of the supply of almond milk

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Speaker 1: being produced in one state, in part of a fairly

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Speaker 1: large country, there are going to be emissions associated with

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Speaker 1: shipping it around.

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Speaker 3: Yes, the supply chain emissions for all of these milks

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Speaker 3: is pretty similar depending on where it's farmed that crop.

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Speaker 3: But obviously some of the crops, such as soybeans, where

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Speaker 3: the largest markets of Brazil and South America, obviously incurs

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Speaker 3: much larger shipping costs than from California across the US.

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Speaker 1: So let's go into something that I think has been

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Speaker 1: well talked about more recently, which is biodiversity. And we're

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Speaker 1: staying on the topic of almond milk, because can you

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Speaker 1: explain a little bit around what's happening with bees and

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Speaker 1: pesticides and how the almond industry is impact ding are pollinators.

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Speaker 3: So I think that something that often gets ignored as

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Speaker 3: a metric is a bidiversity metric, largely because a bidiversity

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Speaker 3: metric hasn't been quantified as of yet for the dairy industry,

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Speaker 3: but almond milk actually fares the worst with regard to

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Speaker 3: bidiversity loss. So due to California's intense almond industry, this

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Speaker 3: requires the use of honey bees that actually pollinate the

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Speaker 3: almond farms. Because all of these almonds grow in trees,

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Speaker 3: you need bees that often have been bred on commercial

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Speaker 3: bee farms specifically for this purpose to help farm those almonds. Now,

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Speaker 3: all of those bees are then exposed to pesticides, fertilizer,

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Speaker 3: heat damage, and then, once farmed, often die after helping

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Speaker 3: to produce those almonds. So it's a concern for a

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Speaker 3: lot of people who are vegan drinking almond milk. It's

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Speaker 3: a concern that we're using an insect to produce all

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Speaker 3: of this and then killing that insect at the end.

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Speaker 3: A more environmentally friendly substitute for someone who like myself,

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Speaker 3: who loves nut based milks and loves the taste would

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Speaker 3: be something like hazel nut milk where those trees are

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Speaker 3: cross pollinated by the wind, meaning that bees are not

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Speaker 3: harmed in the production of hazel nuts.

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Speaker 1: So now hazel nut milk is not firmly on the

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Speaker 1: map in terms of market share yet though, is.

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Speaker 2: It not at all at all?

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Speaker 1: How about the newest entrant that's gained a lot of

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Speaker 1: attention as of late the last few years, oat milk?

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Speaker 1: Where does oat milk stand?

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Speaker 3: Oat milk is actually second most popular to almond milk.

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Speaker 3: Oat milk is very similar to soy in a lot

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Speaker 3: of the metrics, which is why I kind of always

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Speaker 3: clasp them together, mainly because they're grown pretty similarly.

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Speaker 2: But oat milk has slightly.

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Speaker 3: Less emissions than soy milk, so soy is at around

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Speaker 3: one just below one, and oat milk is at around

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Speaker 3: zero point nine kilograms of CO two equivalent per liter

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Speaker 3: of milk produced. In terms of fresh water, again, oat

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Speaker 3: and soy are very very similar. They're both grown in

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Speaker 3: monoculture and don't need a ton of water, so there

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Speaker 3: are two of the lowest in terms of water assumption

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Speaker 3: of plant based milks. And then again for land juice,

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Speaker 3: soy and oat are very similar, again having being grown

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Speaker 3: in monoculture. The only I would say the only probably

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Speaker 3: largest issue, Whereas for almonds we just discussed bidiversity loss,

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Speaker 3: we discussed water consumption. For rice, we discussed the high emissions.

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Speaker 3: For soy and oat, I would say land juice is

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Speaker 3: the most difficult metric for these two milks, because soybeans

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Speaker 3: are grown on flat land and are a major driver

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Speaker 3: of deforestation the same as oats, especially in less economically

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Speaker 3: developed countries, especially Brazil and Argentina, who actually share over

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Speaker 3: half of the global soybean export market. Oats typically need

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Speaker 3: slightly cooler climates and are largely grown in the northern

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Speaker 3: US States or Canada, so less of a problem for

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Speaker 3: deforestation in South America, but still a problem in those regions.

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Speaker 1: This is just depressing. I feel like a camper.

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Speaker 3: I know, it's really a choice of which one is

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Speaker 3: the least bad for all of the metrics.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about consumer adoption and really

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Speaker 1: whether or not we see this industry growing into the future.

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Speaker 1: There are certain drivers associated with emissions as people become

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Speaker 1: increasingly concerned about climate and are focused on reducing emissions

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Speaker 1: in the longer term, but invariably there are other drivers,

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Speaker 1: and you mentioned it earlier in the show, How about

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Speaker 1: lactose intolerance. Is this something we're seeing growing in terms

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Speaker 1: of prevalence and awareness?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's definitely growing in terms of prevalence.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure if it's growing in awareness, but milk

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Speaker 3: protein actually accounts for twelve percent of all protein consumed

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Speaker 3: by humans and growing Lactose intolerance is one of the

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Speaker 3: largest reasons why a lot of consumers switch to plant

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Speaker 3: based milk, and I think the figure is around sixty

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Speaker 3: five percent of the global population suffers from lactose intolerance,

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Speaker 3: and a study showed that I think just under half

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Speaker 3: of today's consumers by plant based milks or proteins for

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Speaker 3: health reasons such as lactose intolerance. And with that growing, yes, absolutely,

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Speaker 3: that will continue to be a really important reason in

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Speaker 3: this shift to plant based airy.

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Speaker 1: What parts of the world and maybe you could even

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Speaker 1: call out a couple of countries that the adoption of

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Speaker 1: plant based alternatives have really taken off.

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Speaker 3: One of the main countries where plant based milks have

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Speaker 3: really taken off again, probably due to lactose intolerance, is China.

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Speaker 3: So around fifty percent of people in China have already

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Speaker 3: kind of integrated alternative proteins and dairy into their diet.

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Speaker 3: But the entire Asian market of dairy alternatives is structured

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Speaker 3: very differently to the US and Europe. In the US

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Speaker 3: and Europe, there are a ton of different players.

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Speaker 2: We have large companies, we have small tiny.

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Speaker 3: Startups with five six employees producing Pea milks. We have

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Speaker 3: these gigantic firms names that you're really familiar with, like

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Speaker 3: Kellogg's and Danon producing all these innovative lines of yogurt

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Speaker 3: drinks and plant based ice creams. Whereas in Asia this

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Speaker 3: market is structured very differently, with six main players that

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Speaker 3: dominate this entire market. And those six main players are

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Speaker 3: actually all soy or nut based.

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Speaker 1: Who are those companies, so.

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Speaker 3: You might be familiar with one of them, Vita Sooi

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Speaker 3: obviously you can tell from the name what crop they use.

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Speaker 3: Yang Yuan is the second largest, which is a walnut

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Speaker 3: and nut based milks. Dai Foods which is soy again,

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Speaker 3: they're the three largest.

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Speaker 1: And then in other parts of the world, there's been

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Speaker 1: a good amount of M and A activity as well

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Speaker 1: as some notable IPOs. What has happened in terms of

441
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 1: the business structure in other parts of the world.

442
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 3: So you mentioned MNA and some of those IPO deals.

443
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 3: So we looked at from twenty fifteen to twenty twenty two.

444
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 3: Then around two point eight billion, which is really not

445
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 3: a lot across seven years, was raised through public markets,

446
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 3: but a huge twenty three billion was raised from mergers

447
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 3: and acquisitions. Within that sort of first figure, I told

448
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 3: you the public markets, the largest transactions were Oatly who

449
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 3: I'm sure you're very familiar with the most popular oat

450
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 3: milk brand, and who I just mentioned the Asian firm

451
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 3: Dali Food their IPO as well. But in terms of

452
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 3: m and A, yes, a lot of larger firms such

453
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 3: as dan On and Otsuka who again you may not

454
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 3: know that those are the companies that own some of

455
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 3: your favorite brands and mine like Silk outpro So Delicious,

456
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 3: even Dia Foods, And then you have Upfield and Violife.

457
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 2: Again.

458
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 3: Violife and Dia Foods are two of the leading plant

459
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 3: based cheese brands in the US, again.

460
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 2: Acquired by KKR.

461
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 3: So a lot of these transactions we kind of know,

462
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,120
Speaker 3: as the consumers the names of the brands rather than

463
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 3: the larger companies behind them.

464
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 1: So we've talked to fair amount about the large companies

465
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 1: and the acquisition opportunities in this space. But how about

466
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: the startups you reference that many of them may be

467
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 1: quite appealing at least when they reach a certain degree

468
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: of sophistication. But startups all start somewhere, and they start

469
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: with VC funding. What's the activity look like in the

470
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 1: VC space for these alternatives?

471
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 3: Across the last seven years, we've seen two billion raised

472
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 3: for early staged companies producing alternative dairy products. Across those

473
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 3: seven years. Total funding actually peaked in twenty twenty, where

474
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 3: around six hundred million was raised across the entire year.

475
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 3: That decreased to four hundred and fifty million in twenty

476
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 3: twenty one, and then around three hundred and thirty million

477
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 3: last year, so that VC money is decreasing a little bit.

478
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 2: But I think this trend is.

479
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 3: More reflective of the overall financial market today, which obviously

480
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 3: took a recent downturn, as well as the fact that

481
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 3: many of those plant based dairy startups were acquired early on,

482
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 3: so there's less need for VC funding and growth equity

483
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 3: funding in series D or eof rounds like you see

484
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 3: in I don't know the EV market.

485
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: Now you've brought up Dan in a couple of times,

486
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 1: and in twenty twenty one they had a change in CEO.

487
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: The previous CEO very much being considered one of the

488
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: more environmentally friendly CEOs out there in the food industry.

489
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: I imagine that some of the decisions around getting into

490
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: this plant based space we're in some respects aligned with

491
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 1: that view around making environmentally conscious decisions. Have they continued

492
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 1: to be actively involved in this space?

493
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 3: Just to preface that this French dairy giant is actually

494
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 3: one of the largest public players in the alternative dairy market.

495
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,959
Speaker 3: Its plant based product market share was around forty one

496
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 3: percent in twenty twenty And yes, I'm aware of that

497
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 3: change in CEO and discussions around whether they're still going

498
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 3: to stay super green although I hate that word, but

499
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 3: you know, just as environmental friendly.

500
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 2: The answer is yes.

501
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 3: So. Actually, between twenty twenty one and today, dan On

502
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 3: reached its goal of sourcing all of its soybeans for

503
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 3: its outpro products from areas not at risk of deforestation.

504
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 3: They had all their soybeans pro Terra certified. If you're

505
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 3: not familiar with pro Terra, certification basically ensures that high

506
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 3: quality crops and food are certified as non GMO and

507
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 3: produced with this standard of sustained ability and they have

508
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: all these metrics like product traceability and waste management. But

509
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 3: as well as that, yeah, one hundred percent. In twenty

510
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 3: twenty two, they invested into another oat milk startup. They

511
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 3: announced further expansion into powdered milk, protein and plant based

512
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 3: baby foods last year. So a lot of new announcements happening,

513
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 3: especially in the last two years actually since this shift

514
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 3: in CEO.

515
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: So that's for Dannin specifically. But I mean, if I

516
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: had to sum up, what you've really been saying about

517
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: the market overall is that there is a lot of

518
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 1: interest from larger companies that we may not even realize

519
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: that are in this space. And it seems to be

520
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: that acquisitions and less so IPOs, but acquisitions continue to

521
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: be popular as companies and incumbent players add this to

522
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: their portfolio.

523
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, And I think that's a really big incentive

524
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 3: for a lot of these startup founders and a lot

525
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 3: of these smaller firms. They know that if they make

526
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 3: a great product, an innovative product, whether it's not based

527
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 3: or oat based, they know that there is a huge

528
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 3: market out there for m and a They know that

529
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 3: the chobanis, the Saputos, the Bell group, the DMK groups,

530
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 3: even existing dairy firms. They know that there is this

531
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 3: shift towards a plant based diet. Everyone knows that there

532
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 3: is this shift. So it's a real great incentive for

533
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 3: some of these early stage startups to be acquired by

534
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 3: some of these larger, even pure play dairy firms to

535
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 3: expand their product line.

536
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: Well. So then that brings me to influence and really

537
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: who has a stake in this market in terms of

538
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: either gaining market share or potentially keeping and withstanding their

539
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: market share in the US specifically, you know, the dairy

540
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: farmers certainly have a very active lobby. Can you talk

541
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: a little bit about some of the activity we've seen there,

542
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 1: because certainly market share is not lost easily.

543
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 3: That brings me onto the unfortunate topic of price, which

544
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 3: it's not a brand new fact that plant based milk

545
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 3: is a lot more expensive than dairy.

546
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: Milk a lot give us some context, so it can

547
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: often be double the price of dairy milk.

548
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 3: But just taking kind of retail prices of milks today,

549
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 3: in two Q twenty twenty three, the average price per

550
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 3: liter of dairy milk would be around a dollar thirty

551
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 3: and the average price per liter of let's say coconut

552
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 3: milk or soy milk is around two ten, so there

553
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 3: is a significant increase in price. Now A lot of

554
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 3: that is due to some of the subsidies. By talking

555
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 3: us specific some of the government subsidies. The US is

556
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 3: a bit of a special case because it is one

557
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 3: of the world's largest milk producers and has one of

558
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 3: the governments with the most mature support schemes in place.

559
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 3: The USDA regulates and promotes the US dairy industry through

560
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 3: a ton of dairy related programs. Three new policies were

561
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 3: introduced in the last two years alone, with two specifically

562
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 3: targeted at assisting dairy farmers due to the pandemic.

563
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: Could you give us a little bit more detail around

564
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: what some of the USDA policies are that are really

565
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: in support of the dairy industry.

566
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, And just to preface that before I go

567
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 3: into the USDA policies, just fyi, there are no policies

568
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,239
Speaker 3: or subsidies support for the plant based dairy industry. And

569
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 3: in fact it's actually in feb twenty twenty three, so

570
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 3: just a few months ago, the FDA introduced kind of

571
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 3: a new requirement for plant based milks to be labeled

572
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,120
Speaker 3: with the nutritional comparison, which is obviously going to be

573
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 3: less protein than dairy milk on every bottle. And there

574
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 3: are a massive kind of lobbying happening right now to

575
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 3: actually make plant based milks unable to be called milk.

576
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 3: So there is a lobbying to remove the word milk

577
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 3: off some of those cartons. But some of those policies

578
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 3: include one of the largest ones, i would say, of

579
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 3: the Federal Milk Marketing Orders. So this is like a

580
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 3: classified pricing system and revenue pooling for dairy farmers, which

581
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 3: really helps to maintain stable marketing relationship. There's the Dairy

582
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 3: Research and Promotion Program, which is a really coordinated promotion

583
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 3: program that helps build demand and expand domestic and international

584
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 3: markets for dairy products in the US. It actually funds

585
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 3: a program called Dairy Management Incorporated to actually help pay

586
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 3: farmers that are producing dairy milk. There's the Dairy Donation Program,

587
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 3: which provides four hundred million dollars in reimbursements to dairy organizations.

588
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 3: And then there are other COVID specific programs like the

589
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 3: pandemic market Volatility Assistance program last year, which is again

590
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 3: another three hundred and fifty million available in assistance payments

591
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 3: to farmers. And yeah, just a lot of policies in

592
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 3: the USDA to ensure that dairy milk remains the cheapest option.

593
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: And certainly on the business end of things, which is

594
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: where we have focused really this show. And I think

595
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: it's great that you bring up the protein question because

596
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: that's actually something that we're not going into. We're talking

597
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: about land use, emissions, water, and then policies and also

598
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 1: business models in this space. But there is a whole

599
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: nother world of research within nutrition and how does one

600
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: create a planetarium yet nutritionally enhanced diet. So on that

601
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: nutrition end of things, that really then brings me to

602
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: some of this future technology. So we've been specifically talking

603
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: about various nuts and lagoomes and then of course dairy milk,

604
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: but how about precision fermentation and this much more technologically

605
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: advanced way of thinking about how this industry may develop

606
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: and what some of the pros and cons are.

607
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 3: Precision flementation is the newest technology in the plant based

608
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 3: airy space. Some people often refer to it as cellular agriculture,

609
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 3: so you may have heard that term before, but it's

610
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,959
Speaker 3: essentially a newer technology that's used to produce milk proteins

611
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 3: such as casin and whey in a powder form. So

612
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 3: it uses not to get too sciency on you, but

613
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 3: it uses genetically engineered microbes to produce some of these

614
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 3: proteins that eventually are mixed then with water or nutrients

615
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 3: and a choice of feedstock like sucrose or glucose, and

616
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 3: when these organisms ferment in big bioreactor, they produce the

617
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 3: milk proteins that are desired. So essentially you can think

618
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 3: of this as a company producing the powder, selling to

619
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 3: other companies that then mix this powder and then sell

620
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,479
Speaker 3: that on as an actual glass of dairy milk because

621
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 3: it is technically dairy milk. So this is a really

622
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 3: good solution for people who don't want to compromise and

623
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 3: don't want to try a plant based milk, who still

624
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 3: want the dairy milk, but without all of the emissions,

625
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 3: without all of the land juice, without all of the

626
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 3: biodiversity loss, without the intense water consumption, but still consuming

627
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 3: dairy milk.

628
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: And then that brings me to what would the cost

629
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: of this be well.

630
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 3: I was hoping we wouldn't get into that question. But

631
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 3: the cost of precision fermented milk right now in twenty

632
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 3: twenty three.

633
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: Bear in mind, this is a brand new technology.

634
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 3: It is actually only commercially available in the US by

635
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 3: two companies currently, so very very early st age is

636
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 3: around six dollars and eighty seven cents for a liter

637
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 3: of precision fermented milk.

638
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: So that brings me to my final set of questions,

639
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: which are a bit of watcher ignore. You are the

640
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: expert in this space, or at least at bn EF,

641
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: you are our resident expert on this topic, and so

642
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: I want to know what sort of things are you

643
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: watching closely? And what sort of things are you maybe

644
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,879
Speaker 1: not watching so closely at the moment, So falling into

645
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 1: the category of watch or ignore. How about blends of

646
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: different alternative milks. Are people out there making their own

647
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: almond oats, rice milk cocktails to their taste or is

648
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 1: that something that is not so popular?

649
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 3: I would put that as ignore. I would say that

650
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 3: the blends aren't super popular. I think ultimately consumers have

651
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 3: defined likes and dislikes and defined preferences, So I don't

652
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 3: really I don't think blends are going to be a

653
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 3: thing going forwards.

654
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:55,800
Speaker 2: Okay.

655
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: Also in the watcher ignore category the direct methane emissions

656
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 1: associated with cows themselves, and of course everybody's favorite topic,

657
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: cow farts. How about additives added to a cow diet

658
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: to reduce their direct methane emissions?

659
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 2: I would say, watch.

660
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 3: I think there are a lot of really interesting startup

661
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,720
Speaker 3: that are looking at seaweed based feed additives that there's

662
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Speaker 3: also a really large agricultural firm DSM that have patented bromaform,

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Speaker 3: which is another feed additive for cattle. I think that's

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Speaker 3: an area that can definitely reduce methane emissions. The problem again,

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Speaker 3: then is adoption with farmers. How many farmers are actually

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Speaker 3: going to pay more for a feed additive without a

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Speaker 3: financial benefit to reducing their emissions.

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Speaker 1: Well, Sarah, thank you very much for joining today and

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Speaker 1: explaining the complicated world of trade offs that exist within

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Speaker 1: the dairy and dairy alternative space.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 3: I look forward to the next chat.

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