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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mob Never Told You from how Supports

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Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline

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Speaker 1: and I'm Kristen. And in honor of International Friendship Day,

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Speaker 1: which is August three, Kristin and I are looking at

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Speaker 1: the science of friendship, what benefits friendship has for you,

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Speaker 1: What does it mean to have a BFF, what will

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Speaker 1: that BFF bring to your life, and how the role

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Speaker 1: of friendship has sort of changed and evolved over the centuries.

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Speaker 1: Because even the Greeks used to talk quite a bit

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Speaker 1: about friendship and their philosophy. Yeah, obviously, friendship is something

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Speaker 1: that goes back throughout human history, and Aristotle had a

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Speaker 1: well known philosophy on the different types of love, one

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Speaker 1: of which is philia, which is affectionate regard or friendly feeling.

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Speaker 1: And our deepest and closest friendships probably also intersect with

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Speaker 1: the idea of a gop a, which is love for humankind,

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Speaker 1: although do you think that it crosses every into arrows?

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Speaker 1: Probably could passionate love. Yeah, philia with benefits. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: people often talk about how they marry their best friends,

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Speaker 1: so those Venn diagrams can often intersect. Yeah, that's right,

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Speaker 1: and it's interesting. I mean, like not to get off

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Speaker 1: on a tangent, but it's interesting that, like, even the

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Speaker 1: idea of quote unquote marrying your best friend is relatively

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Speaker 1: kind of recent development. I mean, marriage for centuries was

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Speaker 1: just sort of an economic agreement right there. There wasn't

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Speaker 1: this idea that, oh, you marry someone that you would

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Speaker 1: like to live with for the rest of your life.

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Speaker 1: It would be oh, no, someone will be selected for

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Speaker 1: you that will benefit Yeah, I mean, because it's fine.

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Speaker 1: We're all going to die at thirty two, our children

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Speaker 1: will be apprenticed out. It's fine. Nobody has to like

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Speaker 1: each other. Yeah, and who cares anyway, because no one

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Speaker 1: has Facebook to each other is up to or how

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Speaker 1: happy one is or is not. That's right, and Aristotle

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Speaker 1: definitely did not have Facebook. And author Massimo Pigliucci, who

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Speaker 1: who wrote a book about the philosophy of friendship, talks

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Speaker 1: about Aristotle's philosophy and his theories that basically friends, He

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Speaker 1: thought that friends sort of had this mirroring role in

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Speaker 1: each other's lives. They could sort of hold a mirror

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Speaker 1: up to each other to help them improve personally, help

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Speaker 1: each other improve, and that they would help each other

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Speaker 1: achieve this thing called you deemonia hopefully and pronouncing that right,

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Speaker 1: which is often translated now as happiness. Maybe literally in

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Speaker 1: the Greek it meant having a good demon. So you

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Speaker 1: would help each other achieve that that thing you were chasing,

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Speaker 1: that elusive happiness, that that that good demon inside of you.

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Speaker 1: I like that. I just thought I was hungry, But

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Speaker 1: apparently it's happiness. It's just here, the happy demon inside

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Speaker 1: of you, asking for a sandwich. Um. But if we

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Speaker 1: move into more contemporary times and look at how the

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Speaker 1: nature of friendship has changed, it's interesting that more of

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Speaker 1: that aarrows type of passionate love has shifted from the

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Speaker 1: person who would have been like our our closest friend

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Speaker 1: and confidante to these days more commonly to a spouse

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Speaker 1: or a long term partner, because, for instance, if you

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Speaker 1: look back in the Victorian era at the closest of

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Speaker 1: female friendships, and if you read letters that women wrote

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Speaker 1: to each other, and even that men wrote to each

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Speaker 1: other during this time, they were so effusive and just

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Speaker 1: almost passionate in their love for the other person. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because that was okay, that was okay. There was no

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Speaker 1: there was nothing in society really that was dictating that

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Speaker 1: it was weird to be like really like passionately in

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Speaker 1: like with your friends, especially like in terms of when

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Speaker 1: we think of male friendships background this time and it

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Speaker 1: being okay to be physically affectionate. Yeah, if you look,

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Speaker 1: for instance, at Abraham Lincoln and his best friend Joshua Speed,

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Speaker 1: they shared a tiny bed for four years while they

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Speaker 1: were living together, obviously in their bachelor days, and that

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Speaker 1: was no big deal. I mean, some people today think, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: that must mean that Lincoln must have been doing something

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Speaker 1: with Joshua Speed. But actually, that kind of physical intimacy

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Speaker 1: that you also see reflected in photos of male friends

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Speaker 1: at the time, where they might be holding hands or

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Speaker 1: touching uh one person's shoulders, or even in sort of

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Speaker 1: a side hug, a platonic side hug, it wasn't so

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Speaker 1: strange at the time. And some think that the Industrial

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Speaker 1: Revolution the rise of organized sports and outdoor activities led

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Speaker 1: to that breakdown in articular of male platonic intimacy. And

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Speaker 1: for women, the idea of having that closer, more emotional,

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Speaker 1: intimate best friendship was a little bit more of a

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Speaker 1: normalized idea because there's been that longstanding idea of women

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Speaker 1: just being the nurturing, emotive sex. But even still, when

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Speaker 1: you get to the nineteen twenties, for both men and women,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't so okay to be as passionately in friend

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Speaker 1: love with your bff because this was around the time

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Speaker 1: when you have the rise of homophobia. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 1: when you have something to be afraid of, you have

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Speaker 1: to actively show that you are not that thing, and

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Speaker 1: in this case it was. It was the rise of

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Speaker 1: the idea of what is manly and masculine and what

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Speaker 1: is female and feminine, and homophobia was really tied up

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Speaker 1: in that. And so the idea of having that like physical,

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Speaker 1: the affectionate close relationship whether you're a man or a woman,

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Speaker 1: was just not hunky dory anymore. Well, and also with

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Speaker 1: the industrial revolution, you have with at the rise of

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Speaker 1: the companion it in love marriage that we think of today,

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Speaker 1: And so that's when you start to see that kind

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Speaker 1: of emotion and closeness transposed from the best friendship into

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Speaker 1: the marriage. And a lot of parents became concerned at

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Speaker 1: this time, particularly for their daughters, that if they seem

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Speaker 1: too close to their best friend, then they weren't going

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Speaker 1: to make a good wife, you know. They could sort

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Speaker 1: of practice, you know, being uh compassionate and kind to

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Speaker 1: someone else. But there was definitely uh this line that

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Speaker 1: was drawn and was perpetuated by psychoanalysts in the nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenties who warned about the quote perversions of the libido

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Speaker 1: that were the tendencies of teenage girls to fix their

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Speaker 1: affections on members of the same sex. I mean that's silly, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, like as far as being concerned about young

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Speaker 1: girls spending a lot of time together, yeah, well, and

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Speaker 1: I would assume to the penalties for that, where it

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Speaker 1: would be much harsher for men at the time, because

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Speaker 1: I feel like now maybe we're just not freaking out

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Speaker 1: as much. But for instance, it's so much more common,

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Speaker 1: it seems like for groups of girls to get together

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Speaker 1: and have slumber parties and play with each other's hair

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Speaker 1: and do each other's makeup and that kind of stuff

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Speaker 1: that involves lots of physicality, whereas boys friendship physicality is

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Speaker 1: often more of the rough and tumble play. There's not

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Speaker 1: that same kind of intimacy. Right. They're probably not sharing

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Speaker 1: a bed like Abraham Lincoln and Joshua Speed. Yeah exactly, Well,

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Speaker 1: because they have to prove that they're masculine and so

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Speaker 1: you can't have that intimacy. But I mean, speaking of

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Speaker 1: intimacy and things that are good for you, friendship has

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Speaker 1: a ton of health benefits. And these health benefits have

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Speaker 1: been asserted over and over again forever, and you're probably

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Speaker 1: familiar with a lot of them, including the psychological ones

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Speaker 1: that uh Mayo pointed out. They include increasing your sense

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Speaker 1: of belonging and purpose, boosting your happiness and reducing stress,

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Speaker 1: helping to improve your self confidence and self worth, help

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Speaker 1: you cope with traumas, and also encouraging you to change

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Speaker 1: or avoid unhealthy lifestyle habits. These are all kind of

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Speaker 1: hallmarks psychological benefits of close friendships. Well, and that last

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Speaker 1: point to that the Mayo Clinic noted, encouraging you to

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Speaker 1: change or avoid your unhealthy lifestyle habits really hearkens back

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Speaker 1: to that Greek idea of the good friend helping you

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Speaker 1: find your your good demon inside of you. Yeah, you're

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Speaker 1: a good demon, whether that's just goodness or margarita. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so whatever, But you know, all of that well being.

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Speaker 1: Once you've achieved all that well being, that definitely leads

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Speaker 1: to a lot of potential physical benefits, things like better

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Speaker 1: brain health. Harvard researchers back into thousand and eight found

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Speaker 1: that strong social ties could actually promote brain health as

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Speaker 1: we age, and so you know, that's why it's even

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Speaker 1: critical when we talk about like aging populations and older

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Speaker 1: people being alone and how awful that is. The stronger

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Speaker 1: your social network, the better you'll be as far as

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Speaker 1: emotional health and brain health. And the lower stress levels

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Speaker 1: associated with having close and healthy friendships also leads to

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Speaker 1: us being less likely to get colds. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is just like one example of how it does improve

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Speaker 1: our overall health. Yeah, and studies have also pointed out

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Speaker 1: that this kind of social support can lower blood pressure,

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Speaker 1: protect against dementia, and reduce the risk of depression. So

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Speaker 1: it's apparently pretty important to have friends, you guys, and

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Speaker 1: all in all, this adds up to the possibility that

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Speaker 1: we might live longer as one byproduct of having friendships.

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Speaker 1: There was a two thousand five study published in the

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Speaker 1: Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health which tracked a group

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Speaker 1: of Australians over ten years, and they found that those

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Speaker 1: with a large circle of friends were twenty two percent

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Speaker 1: less likely to die during the study period than those

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Speaker 1: with fewer friends. And I'm sure there are other issues

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Speaker 1: in there as well, but I mean that is that's

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Speaker 1: that's impressive, is nothing to to sneeze and when you

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Speaker 1: look at women in particular, um friendship also has an

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Speaker 1: effect on women who are battling breast cancer, as a

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Speaker 1: study in two thousand six in the Journal of Clinical

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Speaker 1: Oncology showed um. They did a study of nearly three

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Speaker 1: thousand nurses who had breast cancer and found that the

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Speaker 1: women without close friends were four times as likely to

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Speaker 1: die from breast cancer as women with ten or more friends.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's worth noting that proximity and the

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Speaker 1: amount of contact with the friend or friends was not

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Speaker 1: associated with vival It was just the fact that you

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Speaker 1: have friends who love you in your life that was

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Speaker 1: the protective factor. Having a spouse, however, was not associated

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Speaker 1: with survival rates. It's all about the friends well, and

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Speaker 1: men can also benefit from friendships as well. This was

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Speaker 1: a study published in the journal Psychosomatic Medicine which looked

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Speaker 1: at a group of Swedish men over six years and

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Speaker 1: found that those with solid friendships more than an attachment

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Speaker 1: to one person, you know, just having the spouse perhaps

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Speaker 1: in the home appeared to affect the risk of heart

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Speaker 1: attack and fatal coronary disease in a positive way, probably

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Speaker 1: lowered the chance of that happening. Now, again, these are

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Speaker 1: kinds of correlation versus causation associations to make, but nonetheless,

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Speaker 1: the evidence is pretty strong that all in all, healthy

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Speaker 1: friendships are healthy for us. However, and this is something

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Speaker 1: probably all moms did in tell us many times when

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Speaker 1: we were growing up. Not so healthy friendships can negatively

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Speaker 1: impact us. Sure, yeah, it totally makes sense. If your

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Speaker 1: close friends are boozing it up or smoking or doing whatever,

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Speaker 1: then you are also more likely to do that, especially

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Speaker 1: if you have a strong desire to fit in. Um.

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Speaker 1: There was a study back in in Basic and Applied

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Speaker 1: social psychology that found that when you perceive a greater

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Speaker 1: alcohol use among your best friends, that predicts in you

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Speaker 1: higher levels of willingness to consume alcohol. So basically, if

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Speaker 1: it's the norm in your brain, whether it's true or not,

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Speaker 1: if the norm in your brain is that your friends

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Speaker 1: are drinking and smoking and doing whatever, you are more

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Speaker 1: likely to abuse those substances yourself. Yeah, And there was

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Speaker 1: a recent study that came out in the British Medical

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Speaker 1: Journal which found that friends see your our decisions in

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Speaker 1: when we were school age more so than parents, and

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Speaker 1: remembering when I was fourteen years old, that is not

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Speaker 1: a surprising finding at all because friends are so much

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Speaker 1: cooler than parents at that time anyway. But they found

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Speaker 1: that specifically, the impact of having a smoker as a

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Speaker 1: close friend during adolescents is greater than that of having

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Speaker 1: a smoking parent or siblings when it comes to predicting

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Speaker 1: whether you shall smoke in adulthood, not just whether you're

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Speaker 1: going to be out in the schoolyard smoking some smokes

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Speaker 1: that you stole from some cigarette stubs you found on

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Speaker 1: the ground, yes, and was some misty stubs that you snagged.

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Speaker 1: And another factor that comes into play is also having

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Speaker 1: cross sex friendships among adolescents. This was a study in

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Speaker 1: two thousand six in the Journal of Psychology looking at

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Speaker 1: kids in urban settings in six, seventh and eighth grades.

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Speaker 1: So not only did they find that developing cross sex

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Speaker 1: friendship is more likely to lead to or be related

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Speaker 1: to popularity, but they also found a lot of stuff

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Speaker 1: regarding smoking and drinking. Having these cross sex friendships is

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Speaker 1: also linked to the perception among seventh graders that the

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Speaker 1: best friends attitudes about smoking and drinking are less negative.

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Speaker 1: It's also linked to higher levels of cigarette use among

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Speaker 1: sixth and eighth graders, in addition to more alcohol use

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Speaker 1: among six seventh and eighth graders. Does that mean then

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Speaker 1: that our parents were right when you know they warned

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Speaker 1: us like, don't hang out with old Johnny who smoking

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Speaker 1: those he smoked cigarette but Virginia slims, he will turn

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Speaker 1: out like he's a bad apple. I well, I think

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Speaker 1: I think it's interesting, and there's probably a lot more

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Speaker 1: details that you could look into, or that maybe are

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Speaker 1: actually in the full study if we were to read

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Speaker 1: the full study. But I think it's interesting to look

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Speaker 1: at cross sex friendships in this very impressionable age when

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Speaker 1: your hormones are raging, you're really insecure. Everybody's really insecure

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Speaker 1: and doesn't know what's going on in life. Um, and

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Speaker 1: how that's linked to popularity and then what does it

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Speaker 1: mean to be popular? And then you're thinking about the

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Speaker 1: norms of like, oh well, if Johnny and Susie are smoking,

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Speaker 1: then that's cool and I can do it. And there's

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Speaker 1: a lot wrapped up in there that to me just

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Speaker 1: sets off alarm bells. If the terror of being a parent,

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Speaker 1: because you have to take in all of those different

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Speaker 1: variables when talking to little Suz about how to manage

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Speaker 1: those kinds of peer pressures. Yeah, but we there's even

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Speaker 1: more on cross sex friendships that we'll get into in

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Speaker 1: a minute. But let's talk about sort of beyond just

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Speaker 1: the physical and emotional and mental effects of friendship. Let's

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Speaker 1: talk about the science of friendship because there have been

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Speaker 1: some really interesting studies in the past couple of years,

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Speaker 1: including one that um took my Space into account and

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Speaker 1: side note, the study came out in two thousand eleven,

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Speaker 1: which was seems surprisingly recent considering that they were using

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Speaker 1: my Space data. Yeah, I actually double check that date.

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Speaker 1: I was like, that's got to be like two thousand one,

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Speaker 1: not two thousand eleven. But it was this just a

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Speaker 1: study that Tom conducted. Yeah, seriously, everybody's top friend. But

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Speaker 1: so the study was talking about this thing called cognitive alliances,

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Speaker 1: and they used the my Space Top ten Friends system.

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Speaker 1: If any of you were on my Space, you remember

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Speaker 1: how froughth that was. You know, I broke up with

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Speaker 1: him and so I'm moving him out of my top friends.

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Speaker 1: Are like, oh, we met and she's cool, So I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna put her in my top friends. Yeah, I remember

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Speaker 1: when I was setting up my MySpace account so long

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Speaker 1: ago now, and how it was just a terrifying experience

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Speaker 1: to you know, so carefully select who would be in

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Speaker 1: that top ten to make you look as good and

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Speaker 1: by you, I mean me look as good as possible.

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad that went away. I'm yeah, I we don't.

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Speaker 1: We don't need extra bad feeling stuff like that. And

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Speaker 1: looking at these top ten friends, researchers found support for

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Speaker 1: their alliance hypothesis, which basically held that human friendship is

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Speaker 1: caused by cognitive systems that function to create alliances for

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Speaker 1: potential disputes. So like, I guess your top ten friends

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Speaker 1: would function as your you know, your gang of Ruffians

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Speaker 1: in case the neighboring gang of Ruffians on my Space

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Speaker 1: came up and tried to beat you up. But they

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Speaker 1: also found that because an allies support can be undermined

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Speaker 1: by a stronger outside relationship, the alliance model predicts that

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Speaker 1: people will prefer partners who rank them above other friends.

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Speaker 1: So I'll like you more if you like me more. So,

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Speaker 1: this whole idea is that we form friendships and strong

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Speaker 1: friendships as human humans as sort of a status power

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Speaker 1: grab to ensure that if people we don't know with

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Speaker 1: threatening status has come along, then we have a leg

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Speaker 1: to stand on. Yeah, kind of that. We just have

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Speaker 1: these mental and emotional alliances that we formed that becomes

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Speaker 1: stronger the more the other person shows that were valued.

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Speaker 1: That takes out all of the romance of friendships for me.

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Speaker 1: Don't worry. It gets even weirder. I thought it was

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Speaker 1: so that you could trade those necklaces that are the

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Speaker 1: broken hearts. You get one half and I get the other. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: so there's this. There was this really interesting New York

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Speaker 1: Times article a couple of years ago UM talking to

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Speaker 1: scientists Nicholas Christakis and James Fowler, who along with co

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Speaker 1: researcher Jamie Suttle, have done a lot of studying up

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Speaker 1: on friendship networks, how and why we form these connections

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Speaker 1: and how health related risks and benefits end up being

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Speaker 1: kind of transmitted from person to person or even skipping

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Speaker 1: a person and going on to somebody else. And they

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Speaker 1: use the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health and this

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Speaker 1: thing called the Framingham Heart Study, which followed people in Framingham,

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Speaker 1: Massachusetts for several generations to see how their personal connections

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Speaker 1: and interactions affected their health. Yeah, and and Framingham, the

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Speaker 1: Framingham and Heart study is a fascinating one because it's

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Speaker 1: almost this ideal study population because so many people who

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Speaker 1: grew up in Framingham stayed in Framingham, so it gives

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Speaker 1: them this they can sort of isolate environmental variables and

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Speaker 1: toy around with all of that. And uh, these researchers

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Speaker 1: found some really compelling evidence for how good and bad

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Speaker 1: behaviors spread through our social networks, from both our best

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Speaker 1: friendships all the way to acquaintances or even people we've

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Speaker 1: never met before. Yeah, and they kind of treated it

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Speaker 1: like a virus. Things like quitting smoking, losing weight, and

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Speaker 1: being happy. Those are obviously good attributes, and they watched

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Speaker 1: how these things could spread or crop up versus negative

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Speaker 1: habits like picking up smoking, gaining weight, and becoming less happy.

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Speaker 1: So if if you're looking just at at the weight thing,

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Speaker 1: they found that obesity broke out in clusters. And a

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Speaker 1: lot of scientists who countered this said, well, it's probably environmental,

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Speaker 1: maybe more fast food restaurants opened, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. But

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Speaker 1: they found out that it didn't really relate at all

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Speaker 1: to something like a McDonald's opening in the neighborhood. They

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Speaker 1: found that even if a friend in that group moved

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Speaker 1: away and gained weight, her social circle back home was

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Speaker 1: gaining weight too, and that the risk of obesity increased

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Speaker 1: even if a friend of a friend of a friend

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Speaker 1: gained weight. What is going on with that? Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: kind of pattern was so consistent that these researchers termed

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Speaker 1: it the three degrees of influence. That what you were

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Speaker 1: doing can have effect, you know, to your friends of

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Speaker 1: friends of friends, and vice versa. Yeah. Another theory that

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Speaker 1: was discounted was this thing called home a Philly, which

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Speaker 1: is basically like associates with like. But again that's kind

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Speaker 1: of discounted by the fact that Susie can move away

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Speaker 1: to a different state and gain weight and her friends

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Speaker 1: back home are still gaining weight. But some of the

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Speaker 1: things they looked at among these friend groups are maybe

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Speaker 1: there's some subconscious social signaling at work. As our friends

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Speaker 1: become heavier, we change our perception of what obese looks like,

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Speaker 1: and therefore give ourselves permission to gain a little weight

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Speaker 1: because maybe it's not so bad. Or if we don't

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Speaker 1: gain weight, maybe we just simply become more accepting of

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Speaker 1: other people in our social circles who do so maybe

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Speaker 1: they don't feel as bad about watching what they eat well,

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Speaker 1: And this jumped out to spouses tend to have less

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Speaker 1: of an effect on us, particularly in this area of

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Speaker 1: weight gain that they looked at. They have less of

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Speaker 1: an effect than close friends do because our ideas about

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Speaker 1: weight in particular are more influenced by people of the

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Speaker 1: same sex, which makes sense because you know, we're looking to,

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Speaker 1: you know, people who are more we're looking at essentially

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Speaker 1: like the beauty standards of our group. Absolutely, and they

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Speaker 1: found the degree of friendship matters. So this is sort

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Speaker 1: of like what we're talking about with these cognitive alliances

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Speaker 1: a second ago. If Steve likes Peter more than Peter

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Speaker 1: likes Steve, Steve will gain weight when Peter does. He'll

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Speaker 1: be influenced by Peter's weight gain, but Peter's weight won't

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Speaker 1: be influenced by Steve's because he doesn't whatevery verb you

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Speaker 1: want to use value Steve as much, noticed Steve as much,

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Speaker 1: care about Steve as much. But if there's a mutual

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Speaker 1: degree of friendship, the weight effect is significant. Poor Steve

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Speaker 1: what did you do wrong? And that sounds a lot

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Speaker 1: like that alliance hypothesis that you just mentioned from that

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Speaker 1: MySpace study, right exactly, So how you view your friends

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Speaker 1: and how they view you beyond just like the actual

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Speaker 1: closeness factor that what really exists, Like how you view

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Speaker 1: your friendship matters too, I guess. But if we go

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Speaker 1: back to Aristotle talking about mirroring, you know, he said

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Speaker 1: that friends hold a mirror up to you to help

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Speaker 1: you achieve your happiness, we should bring up mirror neurons

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Speaker 1: because Stock is a Fouler and Settle also talked about

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Speaker 1: mirror neurons and happiness simply the fact that the more

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Speaker 1: happy people you're exposed to on your in your day

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Speaker 1: to day life or in your social network, the more

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Speaker 1: often your spirits are lifted. And so it's the kind

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Speaker 1: of thing like I feel like we've seen marketing campaigns

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Speaker 1: and advertising campaigns that are kind of based on this

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Speaker 1: idea where if one person does something nice for you,

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Speaker 1: and then you do something nice for the next person,

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Speaker 1: suddenly the whole network is happier and more polite. Um,

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Speaker 1: And so it's sort of that idea of like mirror

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Speaker 1: neurons as as you smile at someone, they might smile

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Speaker 1: at someone else, and soon like all of our friends

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Speaker 1: are smiling at each other and they don't know why. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And anecdotally, all of this kind of the ripple effect

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Speaker 1: of friendship rings so true thinking about the patterns of

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Speaker 1: my friends and even broader social networks as I have

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Speaker 1: moved through my twenties and now I'm approaching my thirties,

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Speaker 1: and just how are socializing habits have changed to send

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Speaker 1: to more around like domestic activities. We aren't going out

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Speaker 1: so much. We're doing more things like going on a

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Speaker 1: day hike rather than going on a night bar crawl.

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Speaker 1: And it's like as soon as one person or one

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Speaker 1: couple started doing that, than someone else took note and

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Speaker 1: they started doing it, and then you see their pictures

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Speaker 1: on Facebook and you're like, well maybe I needed to

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Speaker 1: watch it. And it's like we all have collectively become

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Speaker 1: just in general, like less wild. And I think it

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Speaker 1: has a lot to do not so much with like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: we're running thirty, we must be boring, but I think

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Speaker 1: it's probably a lot of this, like the epidemic of

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Speaker 1: friendship essentially, Yeah, like what you perceived the norm to

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Speaker 1: be Yeah, I want to do what Peter is doing,

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Speaker 1: because Peter apparently is a cool guy. Actually want to

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Speaker 1: be Peter. But we'll watch out. If Peter has the

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Speaker 1: d r D two gene, well then you better watch out.

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Speaker 1: Because another thing that Christakis and Fowler found was that

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Speaker 1: there is a genetic compon into friendship, and this obviously

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Speaker 1: needs a lot more research, but one thing that they

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Speaker 1: found their their their preliminary findings are that friendship can

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Speaker 1: be influenced by certain genes and the gene d r

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Speaker 1: D two, which I kept in my mind saying, are

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Speaker 1: two D two influences drinking behavior. People with this gene

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Speaker 1: are not only susceptible to certain behaviors, including drinking and alcoholism,

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Speaker 1: but are susceptible to making friends with those exact same behaviors.

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Speaker 1: So there's an argument for like with like so I

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Speaker 1: party all the time, I want to be friends with

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Speaker 1: people who party all the time. But now there might

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Speaker 1: be a genetic component behind that as well. It's your

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Speaker 1: R two D two genes all coming together. This is

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Speaker 1: not the droid I'm looking for now we need to see, right, um.

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Speaker 1: But they also found a second gene that showed that

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Speaker 1: people are attracted to their opposite opposites when it comes

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Speaker 1: to other certain behaviors. So there's a lot of I

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Speaker 1: think research that still needs to be done there. But

432
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: the fact that you might be attracted to certain people,

433
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 1: whether romantically or on a friendship level, the because of genetics,

434
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 1: that's really interesting. Well, it's one of the things I

435
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 1: was reading about, was talking about how and we hear

436
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: about this a lot more in terms of our romantic attractions,

437
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: how we tend to subconsciously seek out partners who are

438
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,680
Speaker 1: more genetically diverse so that it will give our offspring

439
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 1: a better chance of survival, whereas with friends, we seek

440
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 1: out people subconsciously who are more like genetically similar because

441
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: we want to tend and befriends. That's right, especially for ladies. Yeah,

442
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 1: and speaking of which, we have some gender differences to

443
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 1: get into in our friendship patterns. And also talk about

444
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 1: how making friends changes over our individual life terms, because

445
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: as I'm sure a number of our listeners who are

446
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 1: maybe heading into their thirties and beyond can attest making

447
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 1: friends as you get older changes it can be a

448
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,239
Speaker 1: bit more challenging for a number of reasons that we

449
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,360
Speaker 1: will get into you Okay, but if we look at

450
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: gender stuff first. Um, I thought that the search for

451
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 1: numbers on around this topic was interesting in and of

452
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 1: itself because there's a lot of studies looking at at

453
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 1: how many friends the average man has, but not so

454
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: many specific numbers for women. And I'm wondering if that's

455
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: not because people just assume that women have so many

456
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: more friends and that men don't make close relationships, and

457
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 1: so that's more interesting and they want to study that more.

458
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 1: But if you look at men's friends in particular, This

459
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: is from Men's Health Survey, so keep that in mind.

460
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: But they found that the average guy has four point

461
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: eight close friends whom he keeps in contact with, primarily

462
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: through text, and of guys said they had a best

463
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: friend of those who had known him since high school. Yeah,

464
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: and I do think that you're right that there is

465
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: so much of an assumption that women just make friends

466
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: all the time and that we will have a best

467
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: the at all points during our life, although that bestie

468
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 1: might change. That there's more focused on, well, what of men,

469
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 1: because there's been a lot more research into the dynamics

470
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: of female friendships. But I think it's more because it's

471
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 1: a given, so there's not as much attention to tallying up. Well,

472
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: just how many friends does a woman have? Well, yeah,

473
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 1: because she's always tending and befriending, so we don't have

474
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 1: to really worry about her. This is this is something

475
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: that we've talked about before a lot on the podcast.

476
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 1: We talked about it in our Female Friendships episode a

477
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: while ago. But it's the fact that women tend to

478
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: respond to stress with this huge flood of brain chemicals

479
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: that cause us to make and maintain friendships with other

480
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: women in particular. Yeah, this Landmark study found that when

481
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: we hang out with our lady friends, when we go

482
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: out for sex in the city style brunches every every

483
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 1: weekend somehow, uh, it actually releases the bonding chemical oxytocin

484
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: in our brain, and so we feel tended and befriended.

485
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: And that is sort of the more female analog to

486
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: the fight or flight response, right, and just that women,

487
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 1: when women get stressed, our oxytocin makes us go towards

488
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,480
Speaker 1: one another, whereas men's testosterone testosterone makes them go the

489
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: other way. And female brains seem to really like this

490
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: tending and befriending because for the research has found that

491
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: once we reach out to our friends. We get a

492
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: little shot of oxytocin in our brain. The more that

493
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: we do it, the more oxytocin our brain's release. So

494
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: we're just like hugging all the time, Like I can't stop,

495
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: I'm just hugging my friends all the time. Well, it's true,

496
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: there is a certain kind of crisis management that a

497
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: very best friend can offer that no one else can offer,

498
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: even say a spouse or a girlfriend or a boyfriend

499
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: or a family member. Yeah, I mean that that's what's

500
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: really jumped out to me. That's so interesting in all

501
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: of these various studies that it's like, nope, it's friendship.

502
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: It's those close platonic friendships that really save you and

503
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: protect you well. And I wonder if it is that

504
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: oxytocin connection that explains something that's called the Steel Magnolia's effect,

505
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: which is the study finding that women tend to rate

506
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: their female best friends more highly than guys rate their

507
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: guy friendships. Like we we seem to value that even more.

508
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: Or maybe it might also be like a thing of

509
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: self reporting where maybe we simply gush more about our

510
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: girlfriends and guys gush about their guy friends. Because I

511
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: never want to contend that male friendships are are no

512
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: less strong and important. Um, but but it is interesting

513
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: and it's also yes called the steel magnolia's effect. Well,

514
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 1: I think that ties in with a study, a two

515
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: thousand study that was published in the journal Adolescents where

516
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: they basically put boy friends and girl friends in rooms

517
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 1: together and let them kind of hang out in chit

518
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: chat and kind of looked at the way that the

519
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: two boys talked to each other versus the two girls

520
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: and what they talked about. And boys ended up rating

521
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: their relationships with best friends higher and conflict than did girls.

522
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: But what's interesting about that is it's not that there's

523
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: not conflict, it's the researchers were saying that, like the

524
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: guys would just like hash it out, like what's your problem,

525
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: here's my problem. More confrontational. Girls are less likely to

526
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: be as confrontational to one another and to maybe talk

527
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: about Betty Sue behind her back. But I know Betty

528
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: Sue and Peter like God. So anyway, but girls rated

529
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: lower in withdrawal and higher in communication skills and support

530
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: validation than boys. So girls are better at talking about things,

531
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:59,479
Speaker 1: although sometimes that talking happens behind the back. Um, just

532
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: one note on girl code versus guy code. There has

533
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: been some other research which has suggested that girls, especially

534
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 1: like adolescent girls, tend to hold their besties to higher

535
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: girl code standards than guys do for their guy friendships.

536
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: And I think it's partially because of the fact that

537
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: maybe boys tend to be a little bit more confrontational

538
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: to each other than girls do, because conflict resolution within

539
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: you know, thirteen year old girl friendships can be challenging

540
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: at times. Yeah, well, so I promised you that we

541
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: would talk about cross sex friendships again, and here it is. Uh,

542
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: we're still talking about adolescence and boys and girls here

543
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: and there was a two thousand eight study in the

544
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: Journal of Youth Adolescence that looked at gender age, cross

545
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: sex friendships and what that means regarding antisocial behavior. I

546
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: read the study and I was like, oh God, I

547
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: had a lot of good guy friends in high school. Lord. Anyway,

548
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: So here it is. They found that boys who had

549
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: only same sex best friends and girls who had other

550
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: sex best friends endorsed higher rates of anti social behavior.

551
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: Having other sex best friends predicted anti social behavior from

552
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: six to seventh grade and eight to eleventh grade, especially

553
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: for girls. So what does that mean then, I mean,

554
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: are they basically saying that maybe girls who are getting

555
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: along better with guys just don't get along as well

556
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: with girls, and so they're calling it antisocial behavior. I

557
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: don't know, but I wonder if it ties back to

558
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: the other cross sex friendship study, which talked about popularity.

559
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: It talked about choosing bad behaviors and things like smoking

560
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: and drinking, and the fact that girls who had more

561
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 1: cross sex friendships were more likely to engage in this

562
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: behavior or think it was normal. So that's that's an

563
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 1: interesting finder. Yeah, I mean I don't think. I don't know.

564
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: It sound the language that it uses sounds almost so

565
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,959
Speaker 1: alarmous because we hear anti social think. Oh no, But

566
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 1: I think in this case, antisocial means something a little

567
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: gentler than the way it sounds. I think it means,

568
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: like maybe just things that go against the norm. Well.

569
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: As we move out of adolescence and into adulthood. Research

570
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: has also suggested that our patterns of cross sex friendships

571
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: also change, and essentially, women like move away from having

572
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:40,439
Speaker 1: a best guy friend, usually in heterosexual relationships that would

573
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 1: be of the husband, and it moves away from them

574
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 1: to another female as we get older. Yeah, usually the daughter.

575
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: I am a perfect example of this. Like, so this study,

576
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 1: this study looked at basically phone records who were people calling,

577
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 1: and for several years the woman was calling a man

578
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: all the time, and then slowly that shift to be

579
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: a woman, typically the daughter. So, my mom calls me

580
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 1: all the time, you know, like I can't access my

581
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: e books? Well did you buy them? I don't know. Well, okay,

582
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,399
Speaker 1: call Peach mac Um, called Betty Sue or Peter Mom.

583
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: I'm busy. Maybe they can deal with it since Peter

584
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: is so cool. Um. But what they found was that

585
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: men show a more consistent pattern of being linked to

586
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 1: a female best friend their entire lives, which I think,

587
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: judging by the fact that they qualified the male best

588
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: friend as someone who became the husband typically this just

589
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,240
Speaker 1: sounds like. This just sounds like, whereas the wife starts

590
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: calling the daughter instead of the husband, the husband keeps

591
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 1: calling the wife, which I think is also a pattern

592
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: that holds true in my family. My my mother calls

593
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: me all the time, My father calls my mother. Yeah,

594
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 1: so I think that's all that is well, and that

595
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: brings up then how our pattern of making friends changes

596
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: as we age and if we're sort of bad sacking

597
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: out of the gendered lens and looking just at age. UM.

598
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 1: There was a two thousand eight study in the Journal

599
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:10,399
Speaker 1: of Experimental Education looking at school attitudes and friendship and

600
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 1: as you might expect, adolescents who felt that they were

601
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: valued and respected by their classmates were more likely to

602
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: report adaptive achievement motivation. And what does that mean? That

603
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 1: just means that you're more likely to foster this long

604
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 1: term achievement in school. You're more likely to have good

605
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:34,959
Speaker 1: quality friendships that put a value on academics versus poor

606
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,800
Speaker 1: quality friendships and viewing classmates as resistant to school norms.

607
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 1: That's related to reports of maladaptive achievement motivation. So basically,

608
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: if you have good friends who value academics, you're going

609
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,800
Speaker 1: to consider it the norm. Again, there's that thing, the norm,

610
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 1: and you are also going to value academics and do

611
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 1: well in school. And then though, as you start to

612
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: make the transition from high school to college, it really

613
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: starts to test your friendships. Not so surprised, thinly, um,

614
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: during just the first year in college, high school best

615
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: friendships declined and satisfaction commitment rewards and investments, according to

616
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: a two thousand three study published in the journal Personal Relationships,

617
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: and during this period that the freshman year of college,

618
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: there's also an increase in the costs and alternatives to

619
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: best friend relationships. So it's not so surprising because you

620
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: go to college unless you're maybe bunking with your best

621
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 1: friend from high school or still see them regularly, you're

622
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 1: being introduced to a whole, bigger, broader world of potential

623
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 1: best friendships. Yeah, a bigger, broader world. And also maybe

624
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,439
Speaker 1: it's just harder to keep in touch with friends back

625
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: home and that kind of thing. And so they found

626
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: that what really helped these best friendships continue to thrive

627
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 1: from high school through into college was maintenance behaviors, also

628
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: things like supportiveness, self disclosure, interaction. Basically, the more you

629
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: continue to come indicate on a really intimate level, like

630
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: constantly and consistently, the better that friendship will be maintained well.

631
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: And that completely jives with a two thousand study called

632
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 1: Forecasting Friends Forever, which I really enjoyed that study title.

633
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: But these researchers collected data across nineteen years of different friends,

634
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 1: starting when these friends were in college and after nineteen years. Obviously,

635
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: like a lot of these people had kids. They had

636
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 1: moved an average of like five point six times, which

637
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: is kind of funny because like, what does moving points

638
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: six mean? It just means math is awkward sometimes. And

639
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 1: they found that expressions of intimacy at the outset of

640
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: the study, like when you know, these friends were talking

641
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 1: about each other when they were still in college, was

642
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: not a major predictor of whether they would still be

643
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,919
Speaker 1: friends nineteen years later. So if you were like, oh

644
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 1: my god, we're just so but friends, She's awesome, I

645
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 1: love her, will be friends forever doesn't necessarily mean it's

646
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: going to happen. It was more the level of interdependence

647
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: and essentially thinking and perceiving the world in similar kinds

648
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 1: of ways that most strongly predicted whether they would be

649
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: friends almost two decades later, And so the researchers recommended

650
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 1: that really learning to communicate and sort of figuring out

651
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: how each person sees the world and what your value

652
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: systems are and all of that matters the most if

653
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: you want to be friends forever. Yeah, Like I have

654
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 1: two friends, both of whom I've known forever um but

655
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: one she and I are communication styles are very similar,

656
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,560
Speaker 1: and that we don't. You know, we've been friends forever.

657
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: We we love and adore each other, but we can

658
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: go very very long times without seeing or hearing from

659
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 1: each other, and then when we do see each other,

660
00:39:57,680 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: we just have a glass of wine and pick right

661
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: back up where we left off, and it's great. Another

662
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: friend that I know, um, that I've had forever, she

663
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: has a slightly different set of needs and expectations, and

664
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: you know that's always dangerous in any type of relationship

665
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: to expectation. But um, you know, she's really hurt if

666
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: we go for too long without speaking to each other.

667
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 1: And so that relationship requires a different type of effort

668
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: and energy and communication style. Well, and the importance is

669
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 1: that you know that and you recognize that. Yeah, so

670
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 1: you're not kind of you know, because you clearly can

671
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 1: communicate with each other. So it's more the frequency of communication.

672
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,919
Speaker 1: And I'm the same way with my closest friends. We

673
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,280
Speaker 1: will go for long periods of time without talking because

674
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm rulling not a phone talker. I'm more

675
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 1: of a podcast talker. Caroline, I'm not a phone talker either,

676
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 1: and that does make a lot of things difficult. Like

677
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: my mother all the time. Oh that's differently. But the

678
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: older you get, though, it can be challenging to make

679
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: new friends because obviously you know those some of those

680
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: friendships from say high school in college do fade away

681
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: because you develop your own life and your own rhythm

682
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: and probably move and maybe meet someone that you settled

683
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: down with. And um, one of us is sort of

684
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: a side note, but one major milestone that some that

685
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 1: the survey found is a great predictor of making new

686
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: friends is having a baby. Yeah, if you're feeling lonely,

687
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: just have a baby. Oh god, don't don't know. Um,

688
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 1: but yeah, this is a survey, so you know, keep

689
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: in mind it's not like an academic study, but a

690
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,439
Speaker 1: survey funded by Nature's Purist, a baby products company, found

691
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: that fifty of new mom said it was easier to

692
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 1: bond with other women after having a baby, and seventy

693
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 1: of those said it was because they had so much

694
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: in common. In my brain, I'm just like, you have

695
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: a baby in common. But of course that brings with

696
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 1: it like an entirely new life, and a lot of

697
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: the moms surveys said not only did they now have

698
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 1: things in common like um post babies, sex worries or

699
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: you know, body worries or like I haven't slept in

700
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 1: seven months anymore. Ever, they're also worried about just boring

701
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 1: their old friends with baby talk. Yeah. I mean that

702
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: that those survey findings make total sense. Um, But when

703
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: it comes to just making friends, if you aren't in

704
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: you know, a baby circle, it can be challenging. This

705
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: was something that Alex Williams wrote about not too long

706
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: ago in the New York Times, and he said that

707
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: you sort of have to resign yourself once you get

708
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: into your thirties of making what he calls kind of

709
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 1: friends instead of best friends. They're not like the super

710
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 1: best friends that you would hang out with almost like

711
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: cheer style, like every night you hang out and it's awesome.

712
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 1: But it's more getting into the situational friend zone. So

713
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 1: you have your kind of friends that you will do

714
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,359
Speaker 1: outdoors the stuff with, and then you have your kind

715
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: of friends that are like movie bops, so you go

716
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 1: to like film festivals with them. And then you have

717
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,720
Speaker 1: your I don't know what it's another kind of friend

718
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: computer nerd friends. Yes, can you program computers together? Yes?

719
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 1: Those friends? Um. Yeah, but he says that you've like,

720
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 1: once you've crossed the threshold into your thirties, you're now

721
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,919
Speaker 1: in the situational friend zone. Do do do do do

722
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,360
Speaker 1: do do oh. Another big kind of friend, the couple friend.

723
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:31,880
Speaker 1: You know, the two people to get along really well

724
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: so you can hang out at a fore top. There

725
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 1: you go. Well, so what's going on around this age?

726
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 1: Psychology professor Laura Carsonson, who is the director of the

727
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 1: Stanford Center on Longevity in California, has observed that people

728
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 1: tend to interact with fewer people as they moved toward midlife,

729
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 1: but that they end up growing closer to the friends

730
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: they already have. Why she kind of this is depressing.

731
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: She says that once we turn thirty, it reminds us

732
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 1: that our time horizons are shrinking, so we're less focused

733
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: on exploration and more concentrating on the here and now. Yeah,

734
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: just anecdotally speaking, that makes sense because at least in

735
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 1: my day to day I can't really see much beyond

736
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 1: the here and now because I have no free time. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um,

737
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,839
Speaker 1: there's also the whole issue. According to Marla Paul, who's

738
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: the author of The Friendship Crisis, finding making and keeping

739
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: friends when you're not a kid anymore. She also says

740
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: that the bar is simply higher than than it was

741
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: when we were younger, when we were in college, and

742
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 1: we're surrounded by like thousands of other humans, and we

743
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: can pick and choose our friends at will. We're not

744
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: just willing to meet in general, We're not just willing

745
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: to meet just anyone for an afterwork Margarita. Well, if

746
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: there's a Margarita is actually quite low, quite low. But

747
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: in yeah, in terms of like forming really close friendships,

748
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: I think it takes a little more now because I

749
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: guess once you're thirty, you know your politics are set,

750
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 1: your religious views are set, like all of these important things,

751
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 1: and your view on kids and marriage and whether you're

752
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: going to do that is set. Also, your schedule is

753
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 1: very set. Um. But what if if you are interested

754
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:15,400
Speaker 1: in making a new solid friendship. There are three criteria

755
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 1: that sociologists say are critical for forging those bonds, which

756
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: are proximity, repeated and unplanned interactions, and a setting that

757
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 1: encourages people to let their guard down i e. Margarita's

758
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:33,439
Speaker 1: um and also confide in each other. And those might

759
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 1: seem like a simple set of criteria, but actually finding

760
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 1: all of those in one. That is a challenge because

761
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: once you're like thirty ish and you're in the working world,

762
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: it is harder. Like, you know, you have work friends,

763
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 1: but work is an interesting situation because people move on

764
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 1: and change jobs. They compete with each other for roles

765
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: and tasks and whatever else they're competing for, and different

766
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: people earn less and more than each other. So there's

767
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: that whole money issued too. And if you're in a relationship,

768
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: if you're looking for couple of friends, it's like matchmaking

769
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: for two to all four people like each other. That's

770
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 1: a whole other thing. So what do we do then?

771
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 1: Obviously we have more challenges as we get older to

772
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: finding new friends. And if you're in the market for

773
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: a new friend, I think one good piece of advice

774
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: that Tracy Moore at Jezebel offered was that you you

775
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: need to just go lots of places, do lots of

776
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 1: things that you like to do, essentially set yourself up

777
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,720
Speaker 1: to meet people who are like you, whether that's joining

778
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:40,240
Speaker 1: an outdoor group or volunteering regularly, or essentially like pursuing

779
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: your passion where other people will be pursuing a similar passion.

780
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 1: And that right there will give you a foundation to

781
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 1: start from, right, because we're not sixteen anymore. Hopefully we'll

782
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 1: beyond the point where we lie about our interests and

783
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 1: you know what we like and don't like. And so

784
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 1: the more you put yourself in a situation where you

785
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 1: were genuinely happy and doing something that you love, the

786
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 1: more chance you'll meet somebody who also really loves doing

787
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: that thing. Well in one theme that I hear a

788
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: lot when I talk to girlfriends my age about this

789
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 1: process of meeting new friends is that it feels very

790
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: much like dating. For sure, Yeah, being a grown up

791
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: and finding a new friend. And I, yeah, I not

792
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: too long ago, have this conversation with a mixed group

793
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 1: men and women, and everybody agreed, it's like dating, and

794
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,919
Speaker 1: then it's hard, and but that it's almost even more

795
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 1: rewarding than going on several first dates like with a

796
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: possible romantic partner, because at least, like there's no pressure

797
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 1: in the friendship thing. Yeah, well that's another thing. It's

798
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: like you have to relieve yourself of being terrified that

799
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: it might not work out, because it might not. You

800
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:47,879
Speaker 1: might not see this person, you might this person might

801
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 1: not be your BFF. But that's okay because he or

802
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,800
Speaker 1: she is busy, just like you are probably busy, and

803
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 1: there are plenty of friend fish in the sea, that's right. Yeah.

804
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 1: I mean that's another thing that that Tracy Moore said too.

805
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: It is like the stakes are very low. You know,

806
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: meet people who make you happy, and if they don't

807
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: make you happy, or they don't hang around or you

808
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: don't see them again, you'll meet somebody else. Yeah, but

809
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: I think it is important. I mean, particularly if you're

810
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 1: in a situation where you've moved to a new city

811
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 1: or you are at a new job. You're just sort

812
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: of in like an unknown spot, starting from zero, and

813
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 1: obviously want some face to face friends. It is. It

814
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 1: is work in a lot of ways, like like dating,

815
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:30,879
Speaker 1: if you want to if you want to get out there,

816
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 1: you gotta put some effort into it. Yeah, but I

817
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: think yeah, to develop, I mean, anybody can have a

818
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 1: circle of acquaintances where you're you're friendly to people, but

819
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: if you really are after like a very close friendship,

820
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: it's so critical to be yourself. And I mean, I

821
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 1: know we say that in terms of romantic relationships too,

822
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 1: but like, how are you expected to have a bff

823
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: for a circle of close friends. If you're acting like

824
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: you're not who you say you are or something right,

825
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: because the truth will come out eventually, that's right. But

826
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 1: there was one article that was in the Daily Email,

827
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: so but bear with me. It was simply um piece

828
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: on friendships among women that had significant age gaps, and

829
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:16,839
Speaker 1: it was just like anecdotes of how and why they

830
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,720
Speaker 1: got along so well, and it was fascinating to see

831
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 1: these like much older women befriending much younger women and

832
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 1: vice versa, and how it's important to also as we

833
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 1: get older, to stay open to making friends who might

834
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,439
Speaker 1: not be within you know, like two years on either

835
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 1: side of our age, because older folks are even younger

836
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 1: folks depending on how old you are, can make fantastic

837
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 1: friends too. Well. It's that whole diversity of experience thing.

838
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 1: One thing that relationship coach Karen Smadley pointed out was

839
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 1: that maybe you're an age where all of your friends

840
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: are having babies but you either can't, don't want to,

841
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 1: aren't ready, whatever. Having an older friend who you know,

842
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: having an older and or a younger friend who's having

843
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: a different life experience than your age group can be

844
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 1: very valuable because it kind of takes the pressure off.

845
00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, now I can see that there are

846
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: other lifestyles out there. I don't have to have this

847
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 1: pressure to do X y Z that all my friends

848
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 1: are doing. Yeah, but now, Caroline, is it time for

849
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 1: us to ask folks for friendship stories? For sure? Well,

850
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: we want to hear from you about your best friend

851
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 1: and how friendship has affected your life. Mom Stuff at

852
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com is where you can send

853
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 1: us your letters. You can also though, tweet us at

854
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast or send us a message on Facebook.

855
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,799
Speaker 1: And one final making friends tip, you know, you can

856
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 1: always bring up the podcast because you know, if you

857
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,960
Speaker 1: both like the podcast, then hey you got you have

858
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 1: like over five topics to talk about. What's right? So

859
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 1: with that, we have a couple of letters to share

860
00:50:53,680 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: with you our friends right now. Okay, I have a

861
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 1: letter here from Anna who says that she used to

862
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: get the question no, where are you really from all

863
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,360
Speaker 1: the time. She says, my family is a mix of German, Croatian,

864
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 1: Swedish and Ukrainian, and I came out looking very Eastern European.

865
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 1: My professors would pronounce my name with a strong accent

866
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 1: during roll call and after class seemed very interested in

867
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: asking where I was from. When I would reply, oh,

868
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: about two hours north in Ohio, they would reply with no.

869
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 1: Before that, I never quite knew how to respond. People

870
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 1: have even gone so far as to speak to me

871
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 1: in Russian or in very slow English. I also thought

872
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 1: it might be interesting to give a perspective on exotic

873
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 1: beauty from a slightly different perspective. I'm a very light skinned,

874
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 1: light haired, green eyed girl living in rural Japan. Not

875
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: many foreigners visit this part of Japan, let alone live here.

876
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: So for many people, I am their first white foreigner

877
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 1: they have seen in person. The initial reaction is lots

878
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: of squealing, with people touching my hair, getting uncomfortably close

879
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 1: to my eye, and complimenting me on how small my

880
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: face is and how big my nose and eyes are.

881
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 1: Those are apparently compliments. I've gotten many people asking me

882
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: to take and use my photo for advertising purposes with

883
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: no pay, because I have that quote unquote Russian beauty

884
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 1: that is sought after here. It all seems very forced, ultrapolite,

885
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,919
Speaker 1: but definitely does make me feel an other. I would

886
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: also like to add that the amount of products here

887
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,720
Speaker 1: to make people women in particular look Western is mind

888
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 1: boggling whitening creams. I take colored contacts for less than

889
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: the equivalent of ten dollars at a drug store, hair

890
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 1: lightning kits, and arm and face covers for the beach,

891
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,399
Speaker 1: cars and bikes. I just thought I would share. Man. Okay, well,

892
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 1: thanks for the very interesting perspective. Anna Well, I've got

893
00:52:42,080 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 1: another letter here in response to our exotic beauty episode.

894
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 1: This is coming from Lillian, who writes, I grew up

895
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 1: in an inner city neighborhood in northern New Jersey as

896
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 1: a bi racial woman of Puerto Rican and Chinese ethnicity.

897
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,320
Speaker 1: I've encountered a really uncomfortable amount of fetishizing, not only

898
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: from white men, but also from a Hispanic man who

899
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 1: generally watched too many Kung Fu movies. If I had

900
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 1: a dollar for every time I've been told I'm comprised

901
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 1: of quote the best of both worlds, or told that

902
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: somehow my mix is superior for stupid, stereotypical reasons, I'd

903
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:17,560
Speaker 1: be a very wealthy woman Puerto Rican curves and a

904
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 1: docile freak in the bedroom. The sex must be amazing.

905
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:24,360
Speaker 1: Imagine the food she can cook. The first person to

906
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,480
Speaker 1: call me Exotic was my white male homeroom teacher in

907
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 1: my freshman year of high school. That was an uncomfortable year. Fortunately, though,

908
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 1: since then, I've heard the quote unquote compliment so many

909
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 1: times that I've developed the perfect response to it. Now.

910
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 1: Whenever someone calls me exotic, I say, oh great, another

911
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 1: one who wants to put me in a cage A

912
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,880
Speaker 1: parent is exotic. I'm from New Jersey. The resulting flash

913
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 1: of embarrassment that tends to cross their faces is just priceless.

914
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 1: So thanks Lilian, and thanks to everybody who's written into us.

915
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 1: Mom stuff at how stuff works dot com is our

916
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 1: email address, but you can also reach us on Facebook

917
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 1: and tweet us at mom stuff Podcasts and for links

918
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,359
Speaker 1: to all of our social media as well as all

919
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,880
Speaker 1: of our podcasts, blogs, and videos. There's one place to go,

920
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 1: and it's stuff Mom Never Told You dot com. For

921
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics, does it

922
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com