WEBVTT - Clay Talks With Seth Dillon 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:03.360 Welcome and appreciate all of you listening to us. I 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:06.840 am Clay Travis. This is Wins and Losses. I believe 0:00:07.000 --> 0:00:10.119 this is number forty five or forty six of these conversations. 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:12.399 Been having them for a few years off and on 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:14.800 wanting to get the Clay and Buck show up and running. 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:18.760 So now that we're officially underway there and feel comfortable, 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:21.160 I can start some of these long form conversations again. 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:25.040 And today's guest is Seth Dylan. He is with the 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:27.840 Babylon b and we're gonna get into that here momentarily. 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:31.600 Last week we talked with Auburn men's basketball coach Bruce Pearl. 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.080 If you haven't heard that yet, I think that will 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:38.440 be an incredibly enjoyable conversation for you guys to check out. 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:41.840 We bring in Seth now. Seth is in the middle 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:44.440 of a battle with Twitter, which we are going to 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:47.760 eventually work our way up to where the Babylon Be 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:52.280 account has been locked over a refusal to delete a 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:56.960 to delete a tweet mocking many of the issues that 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:59.280 we're dealing with on a day to day basis, but 0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:03.200 this one in particular with transgender related issues. We'll get 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:06.119 to that eventually, but let's start here. First of all, 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:10.120 thanks for being on seth Secondly, how in the world 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:13.640 have you found yourself doing what you do now? So 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:16.360 I'm gonna start with the most basic question, where did 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:19.200 you grow up? Would you ever have thought, Hey, I'm 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:23.399 going to end up as a sator is basically on 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:28.760 the internet. Uh? What's your background? A great question? Well, 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:30.200 first of all, thanks for having me on play. It's 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.080 pleasure to be on the show. Um. Yeah, I mean 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:37.240 my background. I grew up is someone appropriately to be 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.120 running a you know, like a Christian conservative satire said? 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:43.160 I grew up in the church. My dad was a pastor. Um. 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:45.240 I was born in d C. Of all places, but 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:47.000 I bounced around all of the place. When people ask 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:48.440 what my hometown is, I don't even know how to 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:51.320 answer that because we lived in Maryland and Jersey and 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.240 Texas and South Florida, so I was kind of moving 0:01:54.240 --> 0:01:57.520 around a little bit. I don't really have like a hometown. Um, 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:00.240 but you know, my my background, my early back ground. 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:03.120 I love to read. Um. My parents taught me how 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:06.280 to think critically, and they taught me the values as well. 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:08.600 And I and as I came into like young adulthood, 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.560 young adulthood, I cared very much about, um, you know, 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:15.560 issues of importance, you know, cultural issues and uh in 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:18.960 morals and values UH and making sure that you know, 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:22.120 whatever whatever I was doing in terms of like supporting 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:25.639 and politics reflected my my values in my worldview. UM. 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:28.040 And so I had a good, I think good foundation 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:30.320 under me because of my parents. I'm thankful to them 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.200 for that. But when it comes to like the satire 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:34.600 and the humor stuff, I mean, I got into a 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:37.400 little bit of trouble in college writing the satire that 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:40.400 I sent, I distributed throughout the school. Um, I was 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:42.639 able to download the whole email list and like the 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.120 blast out an email to the staff and faculty and 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:47.640 all the students and and it was making fun of 0:02:47.639 --> 0:02:50.920 the school and some professors, and it was it wasn't 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:52.919 super lighthearted. Some of it was even mean spirited. I 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:54.320 would say, there was a little bit of an edge 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:55.760 to it and UH, and it got me in a 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:58.120 bit of trouble with the with the school's administration, and 0:02:58.120 --> 0:02:59.760 I almost got kicked out of college. So I had 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:02.120 I had an early start when it came to getting 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:05.720 in trouble with that higher and humor. UM, But I didn't. 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:07.920 I didn't start a career doing that because you know, 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:10.400 there's not really many ways to make money doing that, 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:12.720 and there certainly weren't back then for me. So I 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:15.040 got into the Internet marketing world and learned how to 0:03:15.080 --> 0:03:19.600 do UH, search marketing, SEO, all of that stuff. UM. 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:22.280 I worked for some agencies doing that. It wasn't until 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:24.120 about two thousand twelves that I struck out on my 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:27.000 own as an entrepreneur and uh and the babylon Be 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:32.080 fell into my lap in eighteen when I was looking 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:34.560 to kind of diversify into the media space and the 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:37.880 babble Onbe was taking off like a rocket and UH 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:39.800 and I wanted to help it grow. Um. But the 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:41.640 guys who was running at adam Ford he started in 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:44.560 and he was looking to sell it, so we ended 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.760 up working at a deal. UM. So, long story short, 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:49.480 that's how I got involved in it. But it was 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:51.120 just kind of like a dream come true to see 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:53.000 something like that come across my radar. When I saw 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:55.200 the babble on B, I thought to myself immediately, Man, 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:56.960 I wish I had thought of that. I wish I 0:03:57.000 --> 0:03:58.880 was running that side. I wish I was involved in 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:01.480 it in some way. Um, and I initially looked at 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.040 it as just an investment, like to see if I 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:06.400 could get involved as an investor, kind of giving us 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.360 things some fuel. And uh, never thought I'd be running it, 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:11.560 but that's how it worked out, all right. So I 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:14.800 want to go back. Your dad is a is a preacher. 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.320 What religious faith did you grow up in? What was 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:23.880 he a minister? What church affiliation? So Protestant Christianity, Evangelical church, 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:29.159 but not like any particular denominational affiliation, so Bible churches, 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.560 community churches, stuff like that. So I grew up in Nashville, 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:35.560 as most people who are listening here no, um, and 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:38.039 I grew up going to Baptist Church as a kid, 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:40.440 as a lot of people who grow up in the 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:44.039 South do. Uh. And so I experienced a lot of 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:47.240 different preachers and a lot of different preachers sons and daughters. 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:50.880 And it's a cliche that they often have issues. Did 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:54.479 you feel any particular pressure or any particular or find 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:57.520 that you had any particular issues as a preacher son? 0:04:57.600 --> 0:04:59.920 Do you have brothers and sisters? Like? What was your 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:03.240 experience like in that respect, especially since you said you 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:06.760 grew up in so many different states. That's not uncommon 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:10.159 for those jobs either, because a preacher might constantly be 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:14.320 relocating and moving around to find different religious groups to 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:18.400 be to be preaching too. Yeah. Well, I mean, I 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.159 think I think kind of a common thing that happens 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:24.520 is you have really conservative households, a lot of really 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:28.920 strict rules. Um, kids end up, you know, becoming really 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:32.000 wanting to rebel and break away from all that. I 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:34.720 I grew up having a tremendous amount of respect for 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:38.080 my parents, and I was in a very loving home, 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:43.080 and so I never really felt any um strong inclination 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:47.360 to like lash out against them or defy them. Um, 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:49.400 you know, I never I never really struggled with that. 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:52.400 It never really felt like I was jaded because of 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:54.440 you know, things that the things that I had seen 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:56.800 behind the scenes in the church, or you know that 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.440 that rocked my faith to its core or anything like that. 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:01.719 You know, there was obviously a lot of drama that 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:03.719 goes on in churches, and a lot of political stuff 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:06.479 that happens behind the scenes, and a lot of fact 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:10.800 stabbing and and very Unchristian behavior that you end up seeing. Um, 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:13.680 but you know, I think my my parents really they 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.400 handled it all with a lot of grace and uh 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.599 and they really just loved on people. Um. And you know, 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:21.480 my my dad's job, being a pastor is like a 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:24.599 seven jobs. So you know, you're you're you're dealing with 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:26.880 stuff in the church, you're preparing for your sermon, but 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:30.120 then you're doing hospital visits and and funerals and weddings 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:33.560 and all kinds of stuff, just seven um, serving and 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:35.839 ministering to other people. So I never had anything but 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:39.000 tremendous respect for them. Um. And you know, I think 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:41.200 I think my faith only grew stronger as a results 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:45.200 of of my my upbringing in the church. So um, yeah, 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:47.600 I guess, I guess I might be one of the exceptions. 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:49.160 I don't know. I have no idea what percentage of 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:53.200 pastor's kids turn out normal versus uh, you know, going 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:56.600 the other way. So, was there, ever, when you were 0:06:56.600 --> 0:06:59.800 a kid a move where you were just crushed that 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.479 you had to leave a particular community or a particular state. 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:05.400 Was there a place that you loved as a kid, 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:08.360 was one of those moves more traumatic or difficult for 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:14.880 you than others? Um? I do remember I grew up 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:17.800 in Maryland. I was in Um, we were. We lived 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.000 in Carroll County, Maryland. My dad passed through little church 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:23.880 called Uniontown Bible Church, and it's a really small town 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:28.280 and uh, small church and but very close family. The 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:31.440 church was like family to us and uh and so 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:35.160 those were like my kindergarten years, first second grade. I 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:37.800 was a little kid, and I remember when we left there, 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.720 everybody was really sad and devastated that we were leaving. 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:42.880 And I was sad myself because I felt like we 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:44.760 were leaving our family. But I was a little kid, 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:47.800 you know, I hadn't hadn't developed like lifelong relationships with 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.560 anyone yet at that point. But um, that sticks out 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:52.040 to me most in my memory as being one of 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:53.760 those times when I was really sad. I guess as 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:55.480 I got a little older, we moved around, you know, 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:58.440 four years later, we moved again. Five years later, moved again. 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:00.440 I kind of, I guess I got a little accustomed 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:01.920 to it. I think it was harder on my sister. 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:04.040 You know, she would she had boyfriends, and she was 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:05.800 a little older than me. You know, she was having 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.480 the breakup with boyfriends we moved. That was devastating for her, 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:10.600 But um, for me, I kind of got used to it, 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:12.480 and I found it exciting going to a new place, 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:15.720 meeting new people. Um, it was just that one initial 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:17.040 move when I was younger, the first one that I 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:18.960 remember where I felt like we were, you know, leaving 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.320 our home. Where did you go to college? You mentioned 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:23.200 that you got in trouble for what you sent out 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:26.440 to the school listserv. Where did you go to school? 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:30.920 I went to Palmbich Atlantic University. I was there from 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:34.400 two thousand and two thousand four. I studied UH. I 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:37.040 studied business management. While I was there, I minored in 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:41.600 English and and I recently actually got canceled from speaking there. 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:45.120 That's another story, but um, I guess that's going on 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:47.080 two years now. I was supposed to go speak at 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.120 the chapel, and the Twitter mob formed to assemble to 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:54.600 to to UH to say that to the administration that 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:57.040 they shouldn't have someone like me on their campus. You know, 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:00.560 I'm full of full of hatred and all this stuff. Um, 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.120 so you know I ended up I ended up getting 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:06.880 denied from speaking in the chapel because that's a sacred place. 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.800 Can you believe that I actually attended that school. I've 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:12.880 never even I've never even heard of the school Palm 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:20.040 Beach Atlantic. You said, what is Palm Beach Atlantic known for? Uh, 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.400 beautiful women the beach. I don't know, I mean, is 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:25.520 it a big school like I mean, I don't know 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:28.520 sports context, so I can't even like how many people 0:09:28.559 --> 0:09:33.240 would go there. Roughly a few thousands. So yeah, it's 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.280 not they're not They're not on the map when it 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.640 comes to like, uh sports, UM, so you know they're not. 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:43.280 They're not a highly competitive athletic department. UM. But there 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:47.040 are there are a Christian school. It's a private Christian university, UM. 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:48.679 So you know, you have a lot of there's a 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:51.000 big draw to come down to Florida be be neither 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:53.720 near the beach, and so you know, as an alternative 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:55.480 as some of the other Christian universities that are not 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.160 in awesome locations. I think Palm each Atlantic has a 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:00.560 has a great draw for that. They do have some 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:03.640 good programs there though, and and UH I recently just 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.760 I actually invested in and and made it a large, 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:12.199 large UH donation to their new Philosophy of Religion UM 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:15.760 program that they launched a master's and Philosophy Religion. I 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.760 have a strong interest in like apologetics and philosophy and 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:23.520 and arguing for the faith using reason. Uh. And so 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:26.000 that they're they're launching a program with someone I really respect, 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:29.280 Paul Cope, is running that program and uh, and I 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:32.319 think it's gonna be very fruitful training up a younger 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:38.040 generation of of Christians who can actually defend intellectually their beliefs. So, um, 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:40.520 that's really cool that they're getting into that. So that 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:42.320 you made a large donation to the school and they 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:46.800 still canceled your speech, yeah the next year. Yeah, So, 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:52.520 I mean it seems to me that the Religious School 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:57.120 would not necessarily be offended by you, particularly because you're 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:59.800 an alarm Were you surprised that they they decided to 0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:04.760 try to cancel your speech? Yes, and no. I mean 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:08.080 you don't really see much backbone and institutions these days. 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:11.880 The the squeaky wheel gets the grease, you get these 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:15.280 Twitter mobs that form, and they're the really loud, really obnoxious, 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.280 really angry people that everybody wants to appease. And I 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:21.520 think the administration found themselves in a position where, you know, 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:23.240 they didn't want to have a they didn't want to 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.520 have an event on their campus that was attracting any 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:28.120 media attention with protests or anything like that. So they 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:31.360 just wanted to appease the mob and do what the 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:33.240 mob wanted and say, Okay, we're not going to have 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.199 him in the chapel if you guys don't think that's appropriate. Um, 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:38.560 instead of coming and standing by me and saying, there's 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.719 nothing wrong with this guy. He attended this school, his 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.360 he he doesn't have, um, you know, terrible values. He 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:47.600 doesn't hate people. We stand by him. We want him 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:49.280 to speak here. No one. They didn't have my back 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:51.520 like that or stand up these kids. And the thing 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:53.640 that to me it was it's crazy. It's like, is 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:56.280 the administration running the school or are these angry students 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.120 running the schools? The same thing with Disney? Is the 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:01.240 CEO really in charge? And it doesn't really seem that way. 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:04.720 It seems like the tail is wagging the dog. There's 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:07.880 no doubt we're talking to Seth Dylan. He is the 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:12.040 he runs the Babylon b I'll ask him an official title. Uh, 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:16.600 since two thousand and eighteen, I believe uh, And I 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.400 am Clay Travis. This is wins and losses, all right? 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.400 So you go to college. I'm actually curious about this. 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:24.520 You said you were there two thousand to two thousand four. 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:26.240 Do you remember the first time you ever got on 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:29.080 the internet. You're around my age, so you probably do. 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:30.960 Do you remember like the first time you got on 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:34.080 the internet and what you did when you got on there? 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:36.600 Was it with a O L? Like those discs? What 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:38.720 what do you remember about the Internet as a kid 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:41.760 growing up? Man, it wasn't it the rich kid that 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:43.240 had a O L. I don't even know if I 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:45.520 had a well, I think we had like like net 0:12:45.640 --> 0:12:48.280 zero or something like that. I didn't have. So so yeah, 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:50.160 I mean to answer your question, by the way, I 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:52.720 didn't even have the Internet at my house. So when 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.080 I'm a little bit older than you, I'm nineties seven 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:57.760 to two thousand one was the time I was at 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:01.440 George Washington, But when I went away to college. The 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.680 first time I ever got an email address was when 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:07.760 I got to college, and we didn't have, to my knowledge, 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:10.240 the internet at our house. Now, when I came back 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:12.920 home in the summers, by that point, we had the internet, 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.559 but I didn't have the internet at home. My my 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:19.600 uncle next door had Prodigy dial up internet, but I 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:22.520 never had the Internet at my house. So so you 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:24.240 do you remember the first time. I remember the first 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:27.040 time I got on. I was with my friend Greg Schamberg, 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:30.800 who I don't even know where Greg lives now, but um, 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.240 he had a O L those free discs that they 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:35.680 sent out. Remember, like you used to get so many 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:38.439 hours to get on for the Internet. It was dial up, 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:40.600 And I remember he and I got on. That was 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:42.560 the very first I was at his house. I was 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:44.559 probably you know, ninth or tenth grade. That was the 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.080 very first time I ever got on the Internet. You 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.079 had to get like a CD ROM add on for 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:51.440 your computers. Yeah, that's right, disc and if you didn't, 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:54.960 if you didn't already have one, yeah, I was. I 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:59.000 remember my my granddad on my mom's side was really 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:02.280 into like playing bridge and stuff on the Internet and 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:05.040 so and that was like a big thing early on. 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:07.520 And and he was really excited about being able to 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:09.360 set us set us up on the internet so that 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:11.800 he could chat with us remotely. He lived in Virginia 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:15.080 and uh, and so he helped us get on the internet. 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:16.640 We got like I c Q and a O L 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:19.120 A Messenger and started chatting with friends. I think I 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:21.360 was probably fourteen or fifteen around that. Time when we 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:26.280 first did you recognize hey, yeah, but did you reckon 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:28.320 by the time you get to college two thousand and four, 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:30.640 did you recognize even as a young kid, oh, this 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:32.960 internet thing is going to be big? Or like I 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:36.400 remember getting my email address at GW freshman year, and 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:38.080 I remember the guy saying, Hey, this is gonna be 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:40.240 one of your favorite things that you ever have in 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:42.480 the internet, you know, in college, it's gonna be a 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:44.280 big deal. And I remember kind of rolling my eyes 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:47.520 like yeah, whatever, and then almost immediately being like, oh, 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:49.640 this is kind of amazing to be able to email 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:52.360 with everybody and to be able to have an email address. Again, 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.040 I was eighteen before I had an email address. Did 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:57.160 you think back then, oh, this is gonna be a 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:00.240 big deal in some ways? I mean we had, uh, 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:02.800 we had all kinds of ideas. Um, you know, my 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:06.680 brother and I we we secured PlayStation two dot com 0:15:06.720 --> 0:15:10.440 before PlayStation have been announced and uh, and so we 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:13.160 were playing around doing stuff like that, like buying domains 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:16.400 and stuff. So what happened with PlayStation two dot com? 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:18.120 Did you end up selling it or did they like 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:20.760 that was called back in the day, right, like you 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:24.600 would just try to think about the web addresses. Oh yeah, 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:26.320 that's started be coming. That was before it was even 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:28.800 like a super popular thing. I guess, I don't know. 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:30.400 I mean, no one had thought of that one yet. 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:34.080 And UH and Sony sent us a letter demanding that 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:36.720 we released it to them, and my parents freaked out 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:38.760 and made us do it, and so we didn't even 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:41.600 get any money for it. You would have been how 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:46.040 old when you had PlayStation two dot com? I don't 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:49.120 even remember a teenager somewhere. I don't know, four teams, 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:52.160 fifteen six. I'm not sure. This letter just arrives at 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:54.240 your house. Your parents opened it up and they're like, 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:56.520 I can imagine being a parent and being like pretty 0:15:56.600 --> 0:16:00.000 upset about Yeah, yeah, it's an official it's official letter 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.080 ahead from from Sony and UH, and they're sending us 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:05.400 as a demand letter. Basically was a demand letter saying 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:07.880 that they had the rights to that domain. Um, you know, 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.640 it was very aggressive in its language, and so they 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:12.760 were they didn't have any money for like a legal 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:14.400 battle or anything, and they thought we were going to 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:17.240 get in trouble for for squatting on it. So they 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:19.920 didn't understand that, you know, he bought it it was ours. 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:25.440 But yeah, they they they they were pretty pretty serious 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:27.480 about making sure that we did whatever we could get 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.840 Sony Offera backs there. So when you're at college in 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.280 two thousand to two thousand four, obviously you're in a 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:37.000 religious school. Did you think to yourself, Hey, I'm going 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.960 to have some sort of life. I'm gonna you mentioned 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:42.600 you got into s c e e O. How did that happen? 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:46.040 So you graduate in two thousand four from Palm Beach 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:51.480 Atlantic and you go and take one job. Um, my 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:55.160 first job, well, actually my first job before I before 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.760 I got into like the internet marketing stuff directly with 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:01.000 like agencies, was an enterprise Rennetal and I just didn't 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:02.240 even know where I was going to work and they 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:06.240 were hiring. So you were two and you work at enterprise. 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:10.040 What where was the enterprise location in Palm Beach West, 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:12.160 Palm Beach West, Palm Beach, Florida. Was it a good 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:14.760 location for enterprise or was it like a because you know, 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:18.520 there's big differences between where you could be located better 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:21.520 than me. No, not a great neighborhood. It was in 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:24.000 a trailer. It wasn't even a structure like an actual building. 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:28.119 It was it was a trailer on stilts and tiny 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:32.680 little trailer, uh dingy little office, flickering lights, dirty carpet, 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:35.240 and you know you're out there washing cars wearing a 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:37.560 shirt and tie and slacks in the Florida heat. It's 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.240 just it was. It was pretty rough. But I met 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:42.160 my wife there. My wife got in a car accident, 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:45.520 needed a rental, comes into the office. I rent her car. 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:47.520 Later on that evening, she calls the office and asked 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.240 me out to dinner. So, I mean, how old? Wait, 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:51.960 so how old was your wife when she came in? 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:53.960 How old? How old you were? Twenty two? She was? 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.800 How old? I was twenty one? I graduated a year early, 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:59.679 so I was twenty one. She was nineteen. All right, 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:03.520 So what percentage of people that came into your enterprise 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:09.639 office were datable? Like like one in one in fifty, 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:11.760 Like it's gonna be a pretty low percentage, I would think, 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:14.800 especially again, because you're not at the good enterprise. I 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:17.359 always say, like, when I wrote my first book, I 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:19.640 got sent to a bunch of not even the good 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:22.840 Walmarts to do book signings. And by the way, Walmart 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:24.760 not an ideal place to do a book signing, but 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:27.200 when you're not even at the good walmart in a town, 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:30.600 it's a much better it's a much worse dynamic. Trust me, 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:34.120 I would say a very small percentage, more like one 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:35.560 in a hundred. I don't know. It was not It 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:38.080 was not a frequent thing. So when she when she 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:40.960 came in, it was like she grabbed everybody's attention. You know, 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:42.760 this other young guy that I was working with was 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:44.680 hitting on her. He tried to get her number because 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:46.080 he was going out with some friends later and he 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:47.600 wanted to see if she and her friends wanted to 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:49.640 join him, and she blew him off and took off, 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:51.679 And then when she called back and asked for me, 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:54.399 he was like, he was so upset. It was pretty 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:56.639 It was pretty hysterical. So what did you do on 0:18:56.640 --> 0:19:01.359 the first date after you met at the car rental place? Um, 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:03.480 we went out to We went out to dinner that night. 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:05.080 We actually went out that night. She asked me out 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:06.879 that night. I said yes, So we went to dinner 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:12.800 that the first day that we met. Um. I think 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:16.000 it was this restaurant called Bruisy. Bruisy's not even open anymore. 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.240 It was in Uh, it was in a city place 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:21.240 in West Palm, which it's not even called city place anymore. 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:22.720 This is you know, this is how old we are. 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:24.199 The places that we used to go and hang out 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:27.960 are all clothes and renamed now. So um yeah, those 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:30.840 those things don't even exist anymore. But but yeah, I 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:32.720 mean that was my that was my first job, though 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:35.800 my first job, like out of school. I was twenty one. Um, 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.680 I ended up getting into, uh, I end up getting 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:40.679 into like that internet marketing team because while I was 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:42.879 in college, I had a business online actually started. You know, 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:45.479 the internet always interested me, It always interested me, so 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:47.919 I knew there were ways to make money online selling 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.040 stuff on eBay or Craigslist or or you know, just 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:53.600 creating a website and finding some kind of product or 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:55.679 service that you can offer. And and while I was 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:57.480 in school, I was doing this thing where I had 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:00.439 all these like English as a second language students that 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.919 were struggling to to write properly in English. I was 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:05.960 doing editing work for them on the side and helping 0:20:05.960 --> 0:20:07.879 them with their grammar everything. I wasn't writing their papers 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:09.840 for them, but I was helping edit their papers and 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:12.720 like fixed up their English. So feared completely towards the 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:15.520 self students, and I started a whole business doing that. 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:19.320 And so I was connecting editors, like English English speaking 0:20:19.359 --> 0:20:22.320 and writing editors with English's second language students to help 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:24.359 them with their English and help them get better grades. 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:26.880 And so I had a website that I was marketing 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:29.120 for that when I was in school. And then that's 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:30.679 kind of how I learned the ind and outs of 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:34.720 like paid search marketing on Google and Yahoo, um, and 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:37.000 you know, so I had experience with that before there 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:39.000 were even degrees for that that you could that you 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:40.880 could get from the university. And so when I when 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.560 I started applying for jobs doing that at these agencies 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:46.560 that do that do search marketing, they once they knew 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:48.159 that I had some experience, They're like, oh wait, you've 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:50.359 already done this on your own. You're hired. So it 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:54.120 was very easy to get a job. So you basically 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:57.440 taught yourself internet marketing based on having a business like that. 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:00.639 What kind of dollar for dollar return did you get 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:05.600 back in those days with Google search results? Oh? Man, 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:09.280 I mean clicks were pretty cheap early on. You know, 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:11.560 I was able to I was the middleman, right, So 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:15.600 I was linking editors together with like students basically, and 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:18.760 so I would take like a percentage and pay the editors, 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:20.520 you know, I pay the editors, and I would take 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:22.320 some off the top. And so I was in the 0:21:22.320 --> 0:21:24.640 middle of that, I was. I made like I made 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:26.879 like thirty or forty tho dollars the first year I 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:28.480 was doing that, I was still a college student. I 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:32.240 was vacationing to the Bahamas, going to like Paradise Island 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:34.479 and stuff, you know, like I was living it up. 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:37.280 I thought I was rich. I mean, that's a lot 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:39.040 of money for a college kid, right, I mean, if 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:42.040 you were making thirty or uh, and how many hours 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:45.800 were you having to work to do that? I was. 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:47.960 I was working quite a bit because, you know, just 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:50.679 facilitating the whole thing. I didn't have any programmers, like 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:54.280 to automate anything. It was all manual communication between people 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:56.560 and sending invoices and all this stuff. So it was 0:21:56.880 --> 0:21:59.480 it was time consuming. I was working almost, you know, 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:01.760 like almost at a full time clip, even as I 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:04.240 was finishing school. And then when I got out of school, 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:05.760 you know, I wanted to go get a real job 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:07.800 and get some real world experience. But I had in 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:09.159 my back pocket that I knew how to do the 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:11.520 internet marketing stuff. So that's what kind of kicked me 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:13.119 off on that path. I started working for like in 0:22:13.200 --> 0:22:16.040 search marketing agencies, one of them in Boca called more 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:20.679 Visibility UM, another one called Beyond Our ali uh, and started, 0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:22.840 you know, doing that whole thing and learning the ins 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:24.520 and outs of that. And that's fascinating because you end 0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:26.760 up people with clients who are running businesses in a 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:29.320 in a bunch of different industries. Like you could be 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:32.960 running campaigns for people who are selling Vegas show tickets 0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:36.200 or steel toe shoes, or a law firm that's looking 0:22:36.240 --> 0:22:39.159 for leads, or some company that organizes garages, you know, 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:41.440 And so you learn, like you learn how to run campaigns, 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:42.679 you learn the ins and out to how much the 0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:44.600 clicks cost and what kind of return on investment you 0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:47.240 can get in a wide variety of industries. And with 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:49.119 that knowledge, it sets you up to be able to 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:50.440 go out there and start your own business. You know 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:53.680 where the opportunities are. No, that's fascinating. Was there, by 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:57.320 the way, a straw that broke the camel's back moment 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:00.280 as it pertained to working in the car rent holes? 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:02.919 Was there like a I'm done with this forever moment 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:07.200 for you. I don't remember if there was one specific moment. 0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:08.800 I will tell you though, that it is pretty like 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:12.560 soul crushing to be outside in nine degree heat, like 0:23:12.680 --> 0:23:16.000 washing a car while wearing a suit. I mean, you're like, 0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:18.280 and then you and then you run inside the office 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:20.600 a little trailer and there's a line of people. They're 0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:22.600 all mad because there's no cars available. You know how 0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:25.280 Enterprise is, right, they they did a sign Feld episode 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:27.000 about this whole thing. But you know, you have a 0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:29.200 reservation and then you show up and there's no car, 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:31.000 and they're like, well, what's the point of the reservation. 0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:34.760 It's supposed to hold a car. Well, the Enterprise model 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:37.159 was to stay rented completely out the whole time. You 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:39.320 wanted no cars on your lot. But then people would 0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:41.440 walk in needing a car or having reserved car, and 0:23:41.480 --> 0:23:43.800 you don't have any for them. So then you're scrambling 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:46.280 kind of barter with another agency to try to get 0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:49.000 a car from them to bring to your people. Had 0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:51.080 It's very stressful. The phone's ringing the whole time, and 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:53.040 you gotta run outside and wash another car in the heat. 0:23:53.440 --> 0:23:55.160 So I was like, I did that for six months. 0:23:55.160 --> 0:23:56.840 I was like, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta be 0:23:57.119 --> 0:23:59.680 done with this. I also would imagine I I worked 0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:03.720 in tail for a while, and um and so forward facing. 0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:05.720 A lot of people probably listening to us worked in 0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:09.360 restaurants or whatever else. But I would imagine probably the 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:13.360 anger level of car rental is one of the highest 0:24:13.400 --> 0:24:17.199 of all professions forward facing, right, because nobody's ever in 0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:19.800 that good of a mood. It doesn't ever feel like 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:22.359 you get the car that you're expecting to get. The 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:26.760 line always takes longer than you anticipate, there's some issue 0:24:26.880 --> 0:24:29.400 with the car. When you get in, you always gotta 0:24:29.400 --> 0:24:32.560 worry about refueling it. Like I find the whole car 0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:37.080 rental process to be frankly pretty awful. Yeah. Well, and 0:24:37.080 --> 0:24:38.960 then as a as a guy that's renting you the car, 0:24:39.000 --> 0:24:41.040 like there's pressure on you to try to sell the damage, 0:24:41.040 --> 0:24:43.720 waiver the personal injury. Of course, that's a great point. 0:24:43.760 --> 0:24:45.959 All these upsells. You know, you want to sell them 0:24:46.000 --> 0:24:48.680 the prepaid gas, you want to sell them the coverage. 0:24:48.680 --> 0:24:50.639 And if you don't hit certain sales metrics, you know 0:24:50.720 --> 0:24:52.880 you you you you don't, you don't excel, you don't 0:24:52.880 --> 0:24:54.240 get you don't rank up. You don't get to be 0:24:54.280 --> 0:24:56.520 an assistant branch manager and then a branch manager and 0:24:56.520 --> 0:24:58.760 then an area manager. So in order to work your 0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:00.879 way up, you've got to be an outstand salesperson. So 0:25:00.920 --> 0:25:03.080 you're on top of people being miserable for all those 0:25:03.119 --> 0:25:06.200 reasons you just mentioned, you're also trying to sell them stuff. Yeah. 0:25:06.200 --> 0:25:08.000 And by the way, I also mentioned that you have 0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:11.359 kids now, right, you have too boys, two boys ye 0:25:11.600 --> 0:25:15.320 eight and six. Yeah. So the only it's bad enough 0:25:15.359 --> 0:25:17.160 when you're single and you're trying to get a rental 0:25:17.240 --> 0:25:19.240 car or you're married and it's just you and your wife. 0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:22.920 But getting a car seat, first of all, to have 0:25:23.000 --> 0:25:26.480 the car seat be there, secondly getting it installed in 0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:30.560 a rental car, all of this is just a miserable process, right, 0:25:30.640 --> 0:25:32.800 Like it gets worse when you have to have the 0:25:32.840 --> 0:25:35.879 rental car for the kids and you try and reserve 0:25:35.960 --> 0:25:37.840 the car seat and then it's not there, and then 0:25:37.840 --> 0:25:40.199 your wife blames you for that, and then I just 0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:42.359 I think it's becoming quite clear that I hate the 0:25:42.400 --> 0:25:46.400 rental car process. Basically I would rather uber everywhere. Yeah, 0:25:46.400 --> 0:25:48.119 And adding to that is usually like you're getting a 0:25:48.160 --> 0:25:50.280 rental car for your family when you're on a trip somewhere, 0:25:50.280 --> 0:25:52.280 maybe you're somewhere cold and it's snowing, and you're standing 0:25:52.320 --> 0:25:54.480 outside preasing waiting for them to get that. Yeah, just 0:25:54.520 --> 0:25:57.320 to add all that, that's exactly right. All right, So 0:25:57.520 --> 0:25:59.800 you have this knowledge with s e O, how long 0:25:59.840 --> 0:26:01.840 do you work in sort of the S e O 0:26:02.080 --> 0:26:06.959 field for? For several years? I mean for probably like 0:26:07.000 --> 0:26:09.760 six seven years something like that. So I ended up 0:26:10.640 --> 0:26:12.280 branching out to do that on my own too, And 0:26:12.320 --> 0:26:13.919 I had a bunch of clients, and I was I 0:26:13.960 --> 0:26:15.640 was doing pretty well with that. But you know, when 0:26:15.680 --> 0:26:18.120 you have when you have a bunch of client accounts 0:26:18.119 --> 0:26:20.840 that you're managing your it's like having a bunch of bosses. 0:26:20.880 --> 0:26:23.520 You work for each of your clients. And um, and 0:26:23.560 --> 0:26:26.040 I was, for whatever reason the way that I was wired, 0:26:26.040 --> 0:26:28.280 I was I never really wanted to be working for 0:26:28.320 --> 0:26:30.399 somebody else. I wanted to be doing things on my 0:26:30.440 --> 0:26:33.480 own terms, working for myself. And so even though it 0:26:33.520 --> 0:26:36.080 was my own business, having clients, felt like I was 0:26:36.119 --> 0:26:38.879 working for somebody else all the time. Um, I always 0:26:38.880 --> 0:26:40.280 had to do what they wanted me to do, and 0:26:40.280 --> 0:26:42.879 they were always waiting on me for something, and and 0:26:43.040 --> 0:26:44.880 uh and I wanted to do things more on my term, 0:26:44.920 --> 0:26:46.800 and so I was always looking for an out from there. 0:26:46.880 --> 0:26:49.800 So at some point I decided, you know, I'd rather 0:26:49.840 --> 0:26:52.119 just strike out on my own entirely and run my 0:26:52.160 --> 0:26:55.800 own businesses that aren't client based businesses. You know, um 0:26:55.880 --> 0:26:59.119 things that I can I can automate and offer services online, 0:26:59.440 --> 0:27:02.280 uh and not have to deal with clients. And and 0:27:02.320 --> 0:27:03.880 I knew how to do that, just because I don't 0:27:04.160 --> 0:27:06.560 have to spent so many years in the internet marketing world. 0:27:06.680 --> 0:27:09.840 So um, you know, eventually I struck out to do that. 0:27:10.119 --> 0:27:12.720 My brother and I teamed up. He's my brother was 0:27:12.760 --> 0:27:16.359 an engineer, aeronautical engineer, but had a knack for like 0:27:16.400 --> 0:27:20.320 computer programming and web development stuff. And so I told him, look, 0:27:20.320 --> 0:27:22.320 I've got some ideas. If you can build some things, 0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:24.560 I can market them and we'll see if they do well, 0:27:24.560 --> 0:27:26.280 and if they do, we quit our jobs and we'll 0:27:26.280 --> 0:27:28.840 do this whole time. He said sure, and uh, the 0:27:28.880 --> 0:27:30.160 next thing, you know, we were out on our own 0:27:30.960 --> 0:27:35.040 all right. So were you active on social media? You 0:27:35.119 --> 0:27:39.600 said you first noticed I think the Babylon be online yourself, 0:27:39.680 --> 0:27:43.080 and we're interested in it as a business opportunity. Were 0:27:43.160 --> 0:27:47.439 you active in any other media based entities. Prior to 0:27:47.560 --> 0:27:51.320 noticing the Babylon b No, I had never And this 0:27:51.400 --> 0:27:53.600 is the thing, this is why when I was interested 0:27:53.640 --> 0:27:56.560 in investing in the B I really just wanted to 0:27:56.600 --> 0:27:58.080 invest in it. I did not want to buy it 0:27:58.080 --> 0:27:59.800 because they didn't know the first thing about running a 0:27:59.840 --> 0:28:03.120 meet a site. Like I knew how to like sell products, 0:28:03.160 --> 0:28:05.960 generate leads, turned clicks into cash, you know, like I 0:28:06.040 --> 0:28:08.280 knew how to I knew how to monetize websites, but 0:28:08.320 --> 0:28:10.200 I didn't know how to monetize like a media site. 0:28:10.200 --> 0:28:12.080 That's just like where you're not selling a product, you're 0:28:12.119 --> 0:28:15.080 just publishing articles. I didn't know the first thing about 0:28:15.160 --> 0:28:17.520 running a media site. So um, I was really just 0:28:17.680 --> 0:28:20.320 interested in investing in it and letting the guy who 0:28:20.320 --> 0:28:22.959 knows what he's doing run it and produce the content 0:28:23.080 --> 0:28:25.760 and manage all of that. Um. But he was more 0:28:25.800 --> 0:28:27.359 interested in selling it. In fact, he was talking to 0:28:27.400 --> 0:28:30.040 the Daily Wire at the time back in and they 0:28:30.080 --> 0:28:32.119 had worked out a deal and they were about to 0:28:32.160 --> 0:28:35.040 sign on the dotted line, and then Daily Wire backed out. 0:28:35.359 --> 0:28:37.560 Facebook had changed their algorithm and around that time, and 0:28:37.600 --> 0:28:39.200 they got kind of cold feet about whether or not. 0:28:39.280 --> 0:28:41.720 They wanted to be, you know, running another property that 0:28:41.840 --> 0:28:45.480 was really almost entirely dependent on Facebook for traffic and everything. 0:28:45.520 --> 0:28:48.640 So when they backed out, Adam called me back and said, hey, 0:28:48.640 --> 0:28:51.560 if you're still interested, I don't I don't want an investor. 0:28:51.600 --> 0:28:52.720 I want to sell it. So if you want to 0:28:52.720 --> 0:28:54.640 have a serious talk about buying it, you know, fly 0:28:54.720 --> 0:28:56.680 to Michigan and let's meet and let's talk about it. 0:28:57.080 --> 0:29:00.400 So so that's when I flew up there to meet him. So, 0:29:01.120 --> 0:29:06.040 so you buy the company in two tho. Um, how 0:29:06.080 --> 0:29:09.440 what was the size of the company. How nervous were 0:29:09.560 --> 0:29:13.080 you to be buying it? Walked me through the decision 0:29:13.240 --> 0:29:15.840 by which you come to purchase the company and enter 0:29:15.920 --> 0:29:20.640 the media business. Well, it wasn't it wasn't super expensive, 0:29:20.680 --> 0:29:22.880 It wasn't millions of dollars. So I didn't feel like 0:29:22.920 --> 0:29:27.120 I was taking a huge financial risk. Um, but I was. 0:29:27.280 --> 0:29:29.400 I was a little nervous about taking on a property 0:29:29.400 --> 0:29:30.840 that I didn't know how to manage. It was going 0:29:30.880 --> 0:29:32.280 to be a learning curve and I had a very 0:29:32.280 --> 0:29:35.520 full plate doing. You know, we're running a bunch of 0:29:35.720 --> 0:29:38.840 several other online businesses and so um. You know this 0:29:38.880 --> 0:29:40.760 idea that I would be taking on something that it 0:29:40.840 --> 0:29:43.600 was foreign to me. Was a little bit nerve wracking. Um. 0:29:43.600 --> 0:29:46.280 But the upside, the exciting part about it was it 0:29:46.360 --> 0:29:48.240 was fun. It was satire. It was what I was 0:29:48.280 --> 0:29:50.040 doing when I was in college and getting in trouble. 0:29:50.080 --> 0:29:51.800 I saw the opportunity to have all kinds of fun 0:29:51.840 --> 0:29:53.760 and getting all kinds of new trouble. And he was 0:29:53.800 --> 0:29:56.640 worried about this whole fight with censorship and Facebook kicking 0:29:56.720 --> 0:29:59.600 him off for for misinformation or whatever. They were starting 0:29:59.600 --> 0:30:02.400 to fact check around that time, and I welcomed that fight. 0:30:02.440 --> 0:30:04.240 I was like, I want to be on the suntlines 0:30:04.240 --> 0:30:06.080 of that fight. That that sounds like fun. Let him 0:30:06.120 --> 0:30:07.640 try to check me off, you know, Let's let's take 0:30:07.680 --> 0:30:09.760 him to court. Let's fight that battle. Let's fight for 0:30:09.840 --> 0:30:12.920 free speech. So I thought, as this really exciting thing, 0:30:13.280 --> 0:30:15.000 and he was like, I want to pull the ripcord 0:30:15.040 --> 0:30:17.400 and get out. So um, and ended up working out. 0:30:17.440 --> 0:30:19.040 We when we sat down and talked, you know, we 0:30:19.080 --> 0:30:21.560 really liked each other. We got along really well, um, 0:30:21.560 --> 0:30:23.760 and it sounded like I could really bring something to it. 0:30:23.880 --> 0:30:27.160 So um, you know, I was excited about the opportunity 0:30:27.160 --> 0:30:29.600 to get involved with something that would be like really fun, 0:30:29.760 --> 0:30:31.760 you know, rather than just a business where you're selling 0:30:31.800 --> 0:30:33.480 Like I mean, we were selling all kinds of stuff 0:30:33.520 --> 0:30:37.040 we're selling like insulated water bottles and slutting sunglasses and 0:30:37.040 --> 0:30:39.520 and iPhone bumpers and stuff like that. But that wasn't 0:30:39.560 --> 0:30:41.320 like exciting to me. It wasn't fun. I didn't feel 0:30:41.320 --> 0:30:43.680 like it was impactful and meaningful. But the bee had 0:30:43.720 --> 0:30:46.360 something special to be had. It was speaking truth. The 0:30:46.360 --> 0:30:49.360 culture was dealing with the preservation of freedom and the 0:30:49.400 --> 0:30:52.440 restoration of sanity, and in all of that through humor. 0:30:52.560 --> 0:30:54.840 And that was just right at my alley. All right, 0:30:54.840 --> 0:30:56.400 I'm gonna get to that in a second. What was 0:30:56.480 --> 0:30:59.960 the craziest thing you sold that you couldn't believe there 0:31:00.160 --> 0:31:02.560 was as much demand for it? Like, in other words, 0:31:02.560 --> 0:31:05.600 if you had to go back and only sell one product, 0:31:06.120 --> 0:31:08.800 what would it be and or what surprised you the 0:31:08.840 --> 0:31:14.720 most that people were willing to buy? Uh? You know, honestly, 0:31:15.000 --> 0:31:18.120 probably probably floated Like I don't know, maybe it's it's 0:31:18.120 --> 0:31:20.600 not it's not that weird of a product in your mind, 0:31:20.720 --> 0:31:22.800 but I had no idea all the demand that there 0:31:22.880 --> 0:31:24.960 was for floating sunglasses. Did you know that was even 0:31:24.960 --> 0:31:27.959 a thing. I didn't even sunglasses were a thing. This 0:31:28.040 --> 0:31:29.760 is like, so if they fall off your face, they 0:31:29.760 --> 0:31:32.920 don't sink. Yeah, they thought. Yeah. I always thought if 0:31:32.920 --> 0:31:34.760 you lose your sunglasses and the water you lost them, 0:31:34.760 --> 0:31:36.400 they're gone. They think for the bottom. You know, I 0:31:36.400 --> 0:31:39.280 didn't realize there was even the things such as floating sunglasses. 0:31:39.320 --> 0:31:41.960 But I actually am now thinking I didn't know they existed, 0:31:42.000 --> 0:31:44.320 But now I'm like, you know what, floating sunglasses does 0:31:44.400 --> 0:31:46.360 make a lot of sense. So you guys would sell 0:31:46.480 --> 0:31:49.960 tons of floating sunglasses. Yeah, we had a business called 0:31:49.960 --> 0:31:53.480 waves Gear and uh and yeah, we would sell microfiber 0:31:53.560 --> 0:31:56.120 towels and water bottles, all kind of like beach stuff 0:31:56.160 --> 0:31:59.440 and uh and floating sunglasses was the top seller. Um, 0:31:59.480 --> 0:32:02.240 it was was. It was big on Amazon. Um. We 0:32:02.320 --> 0:32:05.080 ended up transitioning away from that and and uh and 0:32:05.080 --> 0:32:07.040 and moving on to other things. But for quite some 0:32:07.080 --> 0:32:09.320 time before there was a lot more competition. Um, that's 0:32:09.360 --> 0:32:13.160 pretty pretty profitable business. Um. How did you, by the way, 0:32:13.240 --> 0:32:16.360 get your stuff shipped? So the reason why I'm asking is, 0:32:16.840 --> 0:32:19.200 we obviously have sold a lot of out kick gear 0:32:19.440 --> 0:32:23.560 over the years, and I before I started selling gear, 0:32:24.080 --> 0:32:27.800 I had no idea how complicated shipping was, how expensive 0:32:27.840 --> 0:32:30.680 it was, how often things got lost, how often things 0:32:30.680 --> 0:32:33.920 went awry. People think, oh, I'm just gonna sell something 0:32:33.960 --> 0:32:36.440 on the internet, and they don't really work through all 0:32:36.480 --> 0:32:41.320 of the complexities associated with it. Uh, that is pretty overwhelming, right, 0:32:41.520 --> 0:32:44.440 So you have to learn. I mean, like you're making 0:32:44.440 --> 0:32:47.719 it sound fairly simple, right, but there's actually a lot 0:32:47.760 --> 0:32:51.360 of complexities involved in selling product on the internet. It 0:32:51.440 --> 0:32:53.280 depends on how much margin you want, how much work 0:32:53.320 --> 0:32:54.520 you want to put it. I mean, there's so many 0:32:54.560 --> 0:32:57.200 opportunities to do, like drop shipping stuff, you can print 0:32:57.240 --> 0:32:59.800 on demand stuff. Now there's there's companies that have made 0:32:59.800 --> 0:33:02.840 it so easy to just like put your design on 0:33:02.880 --> 0:33:04.680 a T shirt and they print it for you on 0:33:04.840 --> 0:33:07.640 demand and ship it all. And you have to charge 0:33:07.720 --> 0:33:09.720 quite a bit for it because it costs so much 0:33:09.760 --> 0:33:12.560 to have them do all that for you. Um. But 0:33:12.640 --> 0:33:14.360 you know, if you if you're able to pass some 0:33:14.400 --> 0:33:16.280 of that costs onto the consumer, you can still make 0:33:16.320 --> 0:33:17.760 a little bit of a margin on it and you 0:33:17.760 --> 0:33:20.000 don't have to handle any of that stuff, which is 0:33:20.000 --> 0:33:22.600 pretty cool. Um. But we had a warehouse, I mean 0:33:22.640 --> 0:33:24.880 we ran the operation out of Actually I partnered with 0:33:24.920 --> 0:33:27.720 a guy out Utah that had a warehouse, uh and 0:33:27.560 --> 0:33:30.880 and and did some distribution and fulfillment stuff. And so 0:33:31.320 --> 0:33:33.920 we worked together on on that whole process and he 0:33:34.200 --> 0:33:36.080 and he managed that whole thing. So we would we 0:33:36.120 --> 0:33:39.280 would bring in the shipments and and palates and stock 0:33:39.360 --> 0:33:41.160 and store them in the warehouse and he would handle 0:33:41.160 --> 0:33:43.840 all the fulfillment and and ship everything out. And so 0:33:44.160 --> 0:33:46.200 we had a system. We had a system. But but 0:33:46.320 --> 0:33:47.800 for for the B right now, we do a lot 0:33:47.840 --> 0:33:50.320 of prinn demand stuff. Um. We take advantage of a 0:33:50.400 --> 0:33:53.040 lot of that. But we are we are transitioning now 0:33:53.040 --> 0:33:55.200 that we're doing bigger volume. We're growing. There's a lot 0:33:55.200 --> 0:33:56.959 more volume. We can make a lot more money if 0:33:57.000 --> 0:34:00.000 we actually handle a lot of the fulfillment stuff ourselves. 0:34:00.440 --> 0:34:02.400 Um or you know, at least not do it print 0:34:02.440 --> 0:34:04.800 on demand, but by it in bulk at lower rage. 0:34:05.200 --> 0:34:07.880 All right. So I don't remember when I first became 0:34:07.920 --> 0:34:11.719 aware of the Babylon B. I'm obviously hyper online. That's 0:34:11.760 --> 0:34:14.600 what I have to do. I was running out kicks, 0:34:14.600 --> 0:34:18.920 so I understand the media space, developing audience, all of 0:34:18.920 --> 0:34:24.240 those different things. What surprised you the most about running 0:34:24.320 --> 0:34:28.000 a media business that you didn't anticipate before you did, 0:34:28.719 --> 0:34:31.640 And when did you start to feel Maybe the answer 0:34:31.719 --> 0:34:34.400 is you still don't, but when did you start to feel? Okay, 0:34:34.440 --> 0:34:39.279 I'm comfortable. I kind of understand the business aspects associated 0:34:39.320 --> 0:34:44.279 with running a site like the Babylon b Well. I 0:34:44.280 --> 0:34:46.000 mean when I first took it over, you you asked 0:34:46.000 --> 0:34:48.439 some questions earlier that didn't even answer. Uh, I guess 0:34:48.440 --> 0:34:50.399 I got distractive with other things, but like how big 0:34:50.440 --> 0:34:52.880 is the opera? How big was the operation? Who was involved? 0:34:52.880 --> 0:34:54.400 I mean when I when I took it over, this 0:34:54.440 --> 0:34:56.480 was it. This was a one and a half man show. 0:34:56.520 --> 0:34:58.799 I mean it was Adam and in a one part 0:34:58.840 --> 0:35:02.000 time writer. That's it. It was two guys and uh 0:35:02.160 --> 0:35:04.239 and the part time guy was submitting some ideas and 0:35:04.280 --> 0:35:06.200 Adam was running the site. And they had some Google 0:35:06.239 --> 0:35:08.000 ads on their that was. That was all they did 0:35:08.000 --> 0:35:12.040 for monetization, UM and some some T shirt sales through 0:35:12.080 --> 0:35:14.839 t spring that they were doing here and there, But 0:35:14.920 --> 0:35:18.080 it wasn't really generating a lot of revenue. Um. There 0:35:18.080 --> 0:35:19.839 wasn't really a model in place for that. So all 0:35:19.880 --> 0:35:21.239 of it was a learning curve for me. I had 0:35:21.280 --> 0:35:22.920 to figure out, you know, how do we how do 0:35:22.960 --> 0:35:26.120 we maximize our RPM, our revenue per thousand impressions, and 0:35:26.160 --> 0:35:28.440 actually turn us into a business, and then you know, 0:35:28.480 --> 0:35:31.319 obviously hiring talent, trying to find writers and all of that. 0:35:31.360 --> 0:35:33.320 So we did. We went through a bunch of stuff, 0:35:33.320 --> 0:35:35.319 we figured out, we we launched the store, so now 0:35:35.360 --> 0:35:39.080 we have merchandise, We started publishing books, we launched a 0:35:39.120 --> 0:35:42.440 subscription platform. All of this Clay was geared towards making 0:35:42.440 --> 0:35:46.160 sure we had diversification of revenue sources in the event 0:35:46.200 --> 0:35:48.279 that we got the platforms. We were working on the 0:35:48.320 --> 0:35:52.040 whole potential d platforming problem right from the beginning, because 0:35:52.120 --> 0:35:54.160 we knew that we had all our eggs and Facebook's 0:35:54.200 --> 0:35:57.440 basket to drive traffic, and all our eggs and Google's 0:35:57.440 --> 0:36:00.400 basket to generate revenue. Either one of them shut us 0:36:00.400 --> 0:36:02.359 off at any time and we have to close our doors, 0:36:02.360 --> 0:36:04.640 there's nothing we can do. So we wanted to make 0:36:04.680 --> 0:36:08.360 sure that we had multiple traffic sources and multiple streams 0:36:08.360 --> 0:36:10.719 of revenue coming in just to diversify and keep the 0:36:10.760 --> 0:36:12.719 business on its feet in the event of those d 0:36:12.840 --> 0:36:15.920 platforming events. So um, that was that was what I 0:36:15.920 --> 0:36:17.440 was trying to figure out from the beginning, and all 0:36:17.480 --> 0:36:19.000 of it was you know, kind of a learning curve 0:36:19.040 --> 0:36:22.080 since I've never never run a media set before. But um, 0:36:22.080 --> 0:36:23.959 we've got we've got our feet under this now, I think. 0:36:24.040 --> 0:36:26.840 And uh, you know, the Twitter thing that just happened 0:36:26.880 --> 0:36:29.439 is a big deal, but it's not going to sink 0:36:29.520 --> 0:36:32.880 us because of all that effort we put in diverse fight. Okay. 0:36:32.920 --> 0:36:34.520 So one of the things that I noticed, and I 0:36:34.560 --> 0:36:37.759 testified under oath about this, so this is no great surprise, 0:36:38.640 --> 0:36:42.760 was Facebook could throw off tremendous amounts of traffic. Social 0:36:42.760 --> 0:36:45.960 media could in general, but if you did something to 0:36:46.440 --> 0:36:50.880 upset the gatekeepers, almost immediately, they could flip a switch 0:36:51.000 --> 0:36:54.680 and your traffic would disappear. I imagine that didn't happen 0:36:54.840 --> 0:36:58.840 very often to you in the selling the floating sunglasses business. 0:36:58.920 --> 0:37:01.480 It was pretty pretty hard. I would imagine. Maybe I'm 0:37:01.520 --> 0:37:04.400 wrong to super offend the floating sun girl. I although 0:37:04.440 --> 0:37:07.120 I guess Amazon could change their dynamics in terms of 0:37:07.200 --> 0:37:10.200 costs and things like that. When was the first time 0:37:10.239 --> 0:37:13.680 you realize the power of the big tech platforms in 0:37:13.800 --> 0:37:16.920 terms of their ability to allow you to have traffic 0:37:17.120 --> 0:37:22.800 or disallow you to have traffic? Um, probably the first 0:37:22.840 --> 0:37:25.840 time was when we had you know, like even before 0:37:25.840 --> 0:37:28.160 all of the media site stuff, like, you know, have 0:37:28.360 --> 0:37:31.680 just having issues where you know, Google would suspend your 0:37:31.719 --> 0:37:34.759 ads for policy violation and you've got to try to 0:37:34.800 --> 0:37:37.400 figure out why and try to appeal and get back on, 0:37:38.160 --> 0:37:39.880 and you would just all of a sudden your traffic 0:37:39.880 --> 0:37:41.600 would dry up. Well, well you're in the middle of 0:37:41.680 --> 0:37:44.840 dealing with that, and you realize it's like you're completely 0:37:44.880 --> 0:37:48.000 at Google's mercy. You cannot drive traffic. You know the 0:37:48.040 --> 0:37:51.319 way Google, Google changed everything when it came to advertising. 0:37:51.360 --> 0:37:53.080 You know, it used to be that you know, there 0:37:53.120 --> 0:37:56.080 was this big concern where you know, Walmart or Barnes 0:37:56.120 --> 0:37:58.239 and Noble would come into a town and all the 0:37:58.320 --> 0:38:01.000 small businesses would suffer because you have these big you know, 0:38:01.040 --> 0:38:03.560 these big brick and mortars that offered so many products, 0:38:03.600 --> 0:38:06.480 they dominated, and no one could could generate any business 0:38:06.520 --> 0:38:09.400 anymore in that area. Well, the Internet, to some extent, 0:38:09.719 --> 0:38:12.800 put you know, fix that problem, or at least address 0:38:12.880 --> 0:38:14.759 part of that problem by making it possible to have 0:38:14.800 --> 0:38:18.240 small businesses put your ads right next to the big companies, 0:38:18.280 --> 0:38:21.120 the big brands, and be competitive with them. You know, 0:38:21.160 --> 0:38:24.000 like we ran like in the self help legal filing space, 0:38:24.080 --> 0:38:26.120 we ran ads right next to legal zoom, and people 0:38:26.160 --> 0:38:28.040 clicked on our ads just as much as they clicked 0:38:28.040 --> 0:38:30.040 on legal zooms ads. And so you can put your 0:38:30.040 --> 0:38:31.799 ads right there next to them. But then, but then 0:38:31.840 --> 0:38:34.200 that can all just go away if if Google decides 0:38:34.200 --> 0:38:36.200 that one of your ads violates the policy, you know, 0:38:36.239 --> 0:38:37.800 they can suspend your account and then all of a 0:38:37.840 --> 0:38:40.240 sudden you're dead in the water and you can't generate 0:38:40.239 --> 0:38:42.680 any traffic anymore. And that can't happen with a brick 0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:44.680 and mortar. Your your store is still there. You know, 0:38:44.719 --> 0:38:47.279 no one's shutting your store down, So you know that 0:38:47.400 --> 0:38:50.879 was dealing with issues like that make it feel all 0:38:51.000 --> 0:38:53.480 very uncertain and and always like you know, you need 0:38:53.520 --> 0:38:56.120 to have you need to have multiple things going at 0:38:56.120 --> 0:38:58.640 all times, because if any one thing topples, you know, 0:38:58.680 --> 0:38:59.960 you don't you want to you don't want to be 0:39:00.000 --> 0:39:02.759 in a situation where all your eggs in one basket. Um. 0:39:02.840 --> 0:39:05.480 So I learned very early on that the importance of 0:39:05.520 --> 0:39:08.360 making sure that you know you've got you've got multiple 0:39:08.360 --> 0:39:11.440 things going on so that you're not you're not you're 0:39:11.480 --> 0:39:15.120 not in such a precarious position. I think what was 0:39:15.160 --> 0:39:18.279 the yeah with the with the B. You know, it's 0:39:18.320 --> 0:39:20.640 when we first started getting back checked and we first 0:39:20.640 --> 0:39:24.759 started getting threatened with demonetization and uh in our platform 0:39:25.160 --> 0:39:28.040 being removed, like basically saying, look, we will we will 0:39:28.080 --> 0:39:30.960 demonetize or de platform you if we feel it's necessary 0:39:31.000 --> 0:39:33.759 if you continue to share fake news. Um, you know, 0:39:33.800 --> 0:39:36.080 those kinds of threats coming from the social media, there's 0:39:36.120 --> 0:39:38.520 no alternative for site like ours to get traffics on, 0:39:38.680 --> 0:39:40.799 especially at that time when they hadn't even created a 0:39:40.800 --> 0:39:44.120 lot of these like uh you know, third tier kind 0:39:44.160 --> 0:39:47.839 of social networks. So one of the challenges that you 0:39:47.960 --> 0:39:50.719 have and you've dealt with. And I'm curious how this 0:39:50.800 --> 0:39:52.920 is played out. And we're talking with Seth Dylan, he 0:39:53.200 --> 0:39:56.880 is the owner of the Babylon B. We are talking 0:39:56.960 --> 0:39:59.480 on wins and losses I of course, and Clay Travis, 0:40:00.120 --> 0:40:03.839 you're a satirical site and you are constantly poking fun 0:40:04.200 --> 0:40:08.240 at a variety of different issues. Yet many people don't 0:40:08.280 --> 0:40:12.960 seem to understand the concept of you being a satirical site. 0:40:13.160 --> 0:40:14.759 And I know this is by the way, not just 0:40:14.880 --> 0:40:18.680 unique to you. The Onion back in the day used 0:40:18.760 --> 0:40:23.040 to often be considered a serious news site as well. 0:40:23.200 --> 0:40:27.200 Sometimes in the stories that they were sharing. How often 0:40:27.280 --> 0:40:31.279 are you getting caught up in those kind of disputes 0:40:31.600 --> 0:40:33.880 And do you think people use it as an excuse 0:40:33.960 --> 0:40:39.160 because of your bent, Like there's this idea that Republicans 0:40:39.200 --> 0:40:42.480 can't be funny, that a conservative site could not be funny, 0:40:42.520 --> 0:40:45.480 and you guys fly in the face of that and 0:40:45.560 --> 0:40:50.160 are pretty consistently hysterical at ridiculing many of the issues 0:40:50.200 --> 0:40:53.440 that are out there. Well, it's funny, I'll tell you this. 0:40:53.520 --> 0:40:55.279 I don't think much of it is honest. I think 0:40:55.280 --> 0:40:57.360 a lot of it is disingtenuous. It's an effort to 0:40:57.640 --> 0:41:00.400 silence and suppress us by pretending that we're something that 0:41:00.480 --> 0:41:02.680 they know that we're not. You know, like when when 0:41:02.680 --> 0:41:05.320 The New York Times calls us a far right misinformation 0:41:05.360 --> 0:41:08.800 site that traffics and misinformation under the guise of satire, 0:41:08.840 --> 0:41:11.759 and those are exact words when they do that. They 0:41:11.800 --> 0:41:13.840 know what they're doing. You know, they are in fact 0:41:14.000 --> 0:41:16.680 using misinformation to smear us as being a source of it. 0:41:17.200 --> 0:41:20.920 And it's very deliberate. It's it's conniving, it's it's wrong. 0:41:21.000 --> 0:41:24.120 I mean, they're not they're not laboring under they're not 0:41:24.239 --> 0:41:26.560 they're not confused about who we are and what we do. 0:41:26.640 --> 0:41:30.080 You know, it's obvious that we're actually a satirical publication. 0:41:30.120 --> 0:41:32.480 They just they just don't like the fact that we're effective, 0:41:32.920 --> 0:41:35.719 and so they find these ways, these creative ways to 0:41:35.760 --> 0:41:37.879 come after you, and so they pretend to be really 0:41:37.880 --> 0:41:40.239 bothered by it. Oh, your jokes are too believable. Too 0:41:40.239 --> 0:41:42.399 many people think that your satire is true. You must 0:41:42.400 --> 0:41:45.279 have some ill motives. You must be trying to uh 0:41:45.440 --> 0:41:49.480 confuse people and spread disinformation, you know, um, and it's 0:41:49.680 --> 0:41:51.360 it's just absurd. I mean when you think, when you 0:41:51.400 --> 0:41:54.120 really think about it's like satire needs to have an 0:41:54.120 --> 0:41:56.120 element of truth to it in order for the joke 0:41:56.200 --> 0:41:58.120 to land, in order for the joke to make sense, 0:41:58.560 --> 0:42:01.200 the point that you're making. All that satire does is 0:42:01.239 --> 0:42:04.759 exaggerate the truth to make its points. And so if 0:42:04.800 --> 0:42:07.359 you're not if you're not closely writing on the back 0:42:07.360 --> 0:42:09.319 of the truth, your jokes aren't gonna land. And this 0:42:09.480 --> 0:42:11.960 idea of this expectation that our jokes should be so 0:42:12.040 --> 0:42:14.759 divorced from reality that no one could possibly believe they 0:42:14.760 --> 0:42:16.840 were true, is to say that we're supposed to be 0:42:16.880 --> 0:42:19.319 doing something other than satire altogether, you know, like We're 0:42:19.360 --> 0:42:22.840 supposed to just be making absurd, silly statements that that 0:42:22.840 --> 0:42:25.360 that are just dumb and have no point. Um, And 0:42:25.400 --> 0:42:27.839 that's just not how satire works, and they know that, 0:42:28.360 --> 0:42:30.239 but it's not. It's one of the arguments that they 0:42:30.320 --> 0:42:32.239 used to try to shut us down, along with you know, 0:42:32.320 --> 0:42:34.800 the hate speech, to punching down and all of that nonsense. 0:42:35.520 --> 0:42:39.840 So you got your account locked recently on Twitter, and 0:42:39.840 --> 0:42:41.439 I'm gonna get to that in a moment. The first 0:42:41.440 --> 0:42:42.879 thing I want to say is, so you took over 0:42:42.920 --> 0:42:48.840 in Obviously election was massive for you guys. When was 0:42:48.880 --> 0:42:52.120 the first time that you felt, hey, we're having a 0:42:52.200 --> 0:42:56.799 significant influence at least in the online discourse and we've 0:42:56.840 --> 0:42:58.799 got a lot of fans out there. Was there a 0:42:58.880 --> 0:43:02.040 moment in time or some body that responded and you thought, oh, wow, 0:43:02.080 --> 0:43:04.480 we're really having an impact. Do you recall having a 0:43:04.520 --> 0:43:08.960 moment like that, Uh, when we started to get a 0:43:08.960 --> 0:43:12.520 lot of media attention. Um, I think that was one thing, 0:43:12.680 --> 0:43:14.719 you know, that was one of the unexpected things that 0:43:14.760 --> 0:43:16.520 I never really thought I would be doing, is like 0:43:16.600 --> 0:43:20.640 going on uh, you know, Shannon Bream and Tucker Carlson 0:43:20.719 --> 0:43:23.640 and whatever and talking about about being fact checked and 0:43:23.680 --> 0:43:25.640 being labeled hate speech and all these things. You know. 0:43:25.680 --> 0:43:28.360 The media attention was one thing where it was clear 0:43:28.400 --> 0:43:30.319 that that people were paying attention to us and what 0:43:30.360 --> 0:43:32.440 was happening to us and how we were being characterized 0:43:32.480 --> 0:43:35.400 or mischaracterized. Um. But then there was also this stuff 0:43:35.440 --> 0:43:39.760 like uh, congressmen and women, the President of the United 0:43:39.800 --> 0:43:44.040 States retweeting our stuff, engaging with it, you know, from 0:43:44.160 --> 0:43:47.160 Ted Cruise to Donald Trump or whoever it is, Elon 0:43:47.239 --> 0:43:52.359 musk um with with people with massive audiences, uh, you know, 0:43:52.400 --> 0:43:55.400 sharing our stuff. It was clear that we were starting 0:43:55.400 --> 0:43:57.680 to kind of break out beyond where we were. Where 0:43:57.680 --> 0:44:00.880 we started out as this kind of like niche Christian 0:44:01.239 --> 0:44:03.960 community site that was reaching you know, doing a lot 0:44:03.960 --> 0:44:06.560 of like church humor and jokes about worship pastor skinny 0:44:06.640 --> 0:44:10.280 jeans and stuff like that. Um. Going beyond that's actually 0:44:10.320 --> 0:44:13.560 reaching a broader community and the culture at large and 0:44:13.680 --> 0:44:17.160 being engaged in this much broader discussion. UM. I think 0:44:17.480 --> 0:44:19.680 I think some of those things were kind of obviously 0:44:19.719 --> 0:44:22.960 the telling factors that we were And I'm obviously you know, 0:44:22.960 --> 0:44:25.680 our our traffic was exploding and our audience was growing 0:44:25.680 --> 0:44:27.279 really quickly too, So it was bearing out in the 0:44:27.360 --> 0:44:30.600 metrics as well. What what's the best month you've ever 0:44:30.640 --> 0:44:36.839 had in the history of the Babylon b uh. Honestly, well, 0:44:37.080 --> 0:44:39.839 which tend which metric you look at? If you want 0:44:39.840 --> 0:44:46.640 to go strictly on revenue, March of March two because 0:44:46.880 --> 0:44:51.080 of the Twitter attention and banning or locking of your account, 0:44:51.120 --> 0:44:54.480 I probably should say that also then drove a lot 0:44:54.520 --> 0:44:57.560 of people probably to want to spend money with you, right, 0:44:57.719 --> 0:45:00.960 so they come on, they sign up or your platform 0:45:01.080 --> 0:45:04.440 because they want to support what you're doing and basically 0:45:04.480 --> 0:45:07.160 stick up a middle finger or thumb in the eye. 0:45:07.160 --> 0:45:10.279 However you want to convey that towards the big tech 0:45:10.360 --> 0:45:13.799 companies for what they're doing to you, right, Yes, we 0:45:13.840 --> 0:45:15.480 get we get a lot of support, and we ask 0:45:15.560 --> 0:45:17.400 for it. You know, it's a situation where it's a 0:45:17.480 --> 0:45:19.560 very it's a very real threat to the business these 0:45:19.600 --> 0:45:23.120 these big tech companies and uh and there you know 0:45:23.200 --> 0:45:27.120 their heavy handed censorship um and their uneven enforcement of 0:45:27.160 --> 0:45:31.160 their of their policies and there and their biased policies 0:45:31.239 --> 0:45:33.719 themselves that have their own ideology baked into it that 0:45:33.760 --> 0:45:35.719 you have to agree with their ideology in order to 0:45:35.719 --> 0:45:39.040 even be compliant with their policies. Um, you know, that's 0:45:39.880 --> 0:45:42.359 that that puts us in a position where when when 0:45:42.400 --> 0:45:45.200 something like this happens, you know, we have to appeal 0:45:45.239 --> 0:45:48.919 to our audience and say, hey, look we need your support. So, um, yeah, 0:45:49.000 --> 0:45:52.600 we know we will have these spikes and growth, punctuated 0:45:52.640 --> 0:45:54.880 spikes and growth that that go along with some of 0:45:54.880 --> 0:45:57.200 these attacks on on the site. And it's a very 0:45:57.239 --> 0:45:59.200 fortunate thing that we get that we get a response. 0:45:59.239 --> 0:46:00.880 You know, we have an audience that really loves us, 0:46:00.880 --> 0:46:02.680 that really values the content that we're putting out there. 0:46:02.719 --> 0:46:05.440 They don't want to see us go away because Facebook 0:46:05.440 --> 0:46:08.360 and Twitter decide that we're too dangerous, were too hateful 0:46:08.920 --> 0:46:11.319 for you to see our content. Um. So we're really 0:46:11.360 --> 0:46:14.520 thankful to our audience. Our readers are subscribers or listeners 0:46:14.560 --> 0:46:17.360 who who have propped us up and have decided that 0:46:17.400 --> 0:46:19.080 they're going to come alongside us and make sure that 0:46:19.080 --> 0:46:21.799 we stick around no matter who tries to show us up. 0:46:22.360 --> 0:46:25.040 What's the most successful headline that you guys have ever had, 0:46:25.080 --> 0:46:30.560 do you know? Uh, most successful in terms of shares. 0:46:30.800 --> 0:46:32.799 There's a couple that come to mind. There's one about 0:46:32.800 --> 0:46:38.080 how motorcyclist identifies as a bicyclist instead of world record. Um. 0:46:38.760 --> 0:46:42.960 That one did like probably like six or seven million 0:46:43.040 --> 0:46:46.719 shares something like that. Um. There's been a few that 0:46:46.800 --> 0:46:49.600 just attracted a ton of media attention, like some silly ones, 0:46:49.680 --> 0:46:51.799 like it's not the best headline ever, but we did 0:46:51.880 --> 0:46:54.880 we were we were a joke about how had purchased 0:46:54.880 --> 0:46:57.520 an industrial sized washing machine to spin the news and 0:46:57.600 --> 0:47:00.359 before publishing it, and it's just a silly a joke. 0:47:00.400 --> 0:47:02.880 It's like ridiculous, it's not believable or anything. But it 0:47:02.960 --> 0:47:05.800 got fact checked and reading false by snops and so 0:47:05.920 --> 0:47:08.640 we end u getting all this media attention because because 0:47:08.680 --> 0:47:11.000 we're like fighting for our lives to stay on Facebook 0:47:11.000 --> 0:47:14.160 because snokes is reading our jokes fault. Um. So you know, 0:47:14.160 --> 0:47:15.960 there's it depends on how you how you want to 0:47:16.000 --> 0:47:18.279 try to judge it in terms of like how monumental 0:47:18.400 --> 0:47:19.920 was it in our history? You know, there's a few 0:47:20.000 --> 0:47:22.239 that really stand out that weren't necessarily our funniest for 0:47:22.320 --> 0:47:26.120 most shared headlines. So okay, let's go into what happens 0:47:26.160 --> 0:47:30.000 with Twitter had you had the Babylon be account locked 0:47:30.040 --> 0:47:32.960 before what we're what's your deal? And by the way, 0:47:33.120 --> 0:47:36.160 people may be listening to this months from now, years 0:47:36.200 --> 0:47:40.920 from now, even we're talking in early April of two. 0:47:41.120 --> 0:47:44.040 Right now, the Babylon b account is locked because you 0:47:44.120 --> 0:47:47.080 won't take down a tweet, which I'll get to in 0:47:47.080 --> 0:47:50.320 a sect. But had your account been locked before this occurred? 0:47:52.239 --> 0:47:54.640 There was one time when our account got suspended, like 0:47:54.840 --> 0:48:00.680 entirely suspended. What was that suspended for? Well, a mistake, 0:48:00.800 --> 0:48:04.799 of course, right, It's always a mistake. Um. We were suspended, 0:48:05.120 --> 0:48:10.839 um and and we asked Twitter why um and because 0:48:10.840 --> 0:48:12.520 we didn't even get an answer. Just one day we 0:48:12.560 --> 0:48:16.600 woke up and the account was suspended um and their explanation. 0:48:16.640 --> 0:48:19.319 They actually did apologize and reinstate the account a couple 0:48:19.320 --> 0:48:21.239 of days later, after we got a ton of media 0:48:21.239 --> 0:48:23.440 attention going out there talking about how Twitter had just 0:48:23.440 --> 0:48:26.840 suspended us for no apparent reason. Um and it was 0:48:26.920 --> 0:48:29.200 like it was a mistake. They said there was some 0:48:29.360 --> 0:48:33.480 spam crackdown that they were doing, and our account got 0:48:33.480 --> 0:48:35.879 flagged as being like a bot or something like that 0:48:36.080 --> 0:48:39.319 and was taken down by in error. So but that 0:48:39.400 --> 0:48:41.680 was the only time that we ever really got fully suspended, 0:48:42.080 --> 0:48:44.080 and they apologized that it was an error and we 0:48:44.120 --> 0:48:46.319 got back on. But they only did that after we 0:48:46.360 --> 0:48:48.200 made a ton of noise in the media and we're 0:48:48.239 --> 0:48:50.920 going all over talking on on news shows and whoever 0:48:50.920 --> 0:48:52.920 would have us to talk about how Twitter had just 0:48:52.920 --> 0:48:55.000 suspended us out of nowhere and then all of a sudden, 0:48:55.000 --> 0:49:00.359 they're sorry and they made a mistake and now out 0:49:00.360 --> 0:49:05.239 of your account right now, What has what occurred? What 0:49:05.360 --> 0:49:08.480 has happened, and what is the future as you know 0:49:08.560 --> 0:49:10.799 it right now likely to look like for people who 0:49:10.840 --> 0:49:14.440 don't know, the bablon b account was suspended and or 0:49:14.520 --> 0:49:18.560 locked however you want to classify it for tweeting out one. 0:49:19.040 --> 0:49:21.480 So there was a there was an article published in 0:49:21.600 --> 0:49:28.759 USA Today naming Rachel Levine a transgender Health Department official, UM, 0:49:28.880 --> 0:49:31.319 naming Rachel Levine one of their Women of the Year. 0:49:31.400 --> 0:49:34.399 They had nominated several women for Women of the Year, 0:49:34.719 --> 0:49:37.320 and Rachel Levine was named as one of them. UM. 0:49:37.400 --> 0:49:40.799 And you know, we we did a parody version of 0:49:40.840 --> 0:49:43.440 that where we named Rachel Levine as the babble on b. 0:49:43.600 --> 0:49:46.320 The babble Wobe picked Rachel Levin as our pick for 0:49:46.440 --> 0:49:49.680 Man of the Year. So it was us like pushing 0:49:49.719 --> 0:49:51.719 back on this idea that Rachel Levine is really a 0:49:51.760 --> 0:49:56.680 woman and that runs a foul of Twitter tapeful conduct 0:49:56.760 --> 0:50:00.839 policy because it involves miss gendering, according to them. Now, 0:50:01.080 --> 0:50:03.359 we disagree that it involves miss gendering. I think it's 0:50:03.360 --> 0:50:07.080 mis gendering. You call Rachel Lavine a woman. Um, but 0:50:07.320 --> 0:50:09.560 they think it's mis gendering the other way. And so 0:50:09.719 --> 0:50:12.480 they have this policy, this hateful conduct policy that has 0:50:12.520 --> 0:50:16.680 their their progressive gender ideology baked into it. Uh, And 0:50:16.719 --> 0:50:19.640 they want us to delete the tweet and affirm that 0:50:19.680 --> 0:50:22.759 we did violate this policy and and that we did 0:50:22.840 --> 0:50:25.799 engage in hateful conduct and in lessen. Until we do that, 0:50:26.160 --> 0:50:28.600 we can't unlock the account. And to me, it's just crazy. 0:50:28.600 --> 0:50:30.799 It's like, Okay, if you don't want this content on 0:50:30.840 --> 0:50:33.359 your platform, you can take it down. If you want 0:50:33.400 --> 0:50:36.120 to delete it, delete our tweet for us. You have 0:50:36.239 --> 0:50:38.759 that power, you have that right. Um, take it down 0:50:38.760 --> 0:50:41.320 and tell us that you think we engage in hateful conduct, 0:50:41.360 --> 0:50:43.600 but don't make us delete it and admit that we 0:50:43.640 --> 0:50:45.799 engage in hateful conduct when we don't think that we did. 0:50:46.280 --> 0:50:48.520 So there it's basically they're pretty in a situation where 0:50:48.560 --> 0:50:50.760 they want us to bend the knee, kiss the ring, whatever, 0:50:51.160 --> 0:50:52.759 and we're like, no, we're not we're not doing that. 0:50:52.800 --> 0:50:55.240 We disagree that this is hateful conduct in the first place. 0:50:55.480 --> 0:50:57.680 You know, we disagree with the ideology that you've baked 0:50:57.680 --> 0:51:00.920 into your terms of service. So you know, it's one 0:51:00.960 --> 0:51:03.120 of these situations where we're just at this stalemate. So 0:51:03.160 --> 0:51:06.879 how does this resolve itself? Then? Yeah, you're at you're 0:51:06.920 --> 0:51:10.360 at a Yeah, that's exactly right, You're at a standoff. 0:51:10.760 --> 0:51:14.439 So how does this resolve itself? In your opinion? And 0:51:15.040 --> 0:51:20.000 does Elon Musk having bought nine two of Twitter, does 0:51:20.080 --> 0:51:22.680 that have any impact in the way that they adjust 0:51:22.800 --> 0:51:26.800 their editorial standards? Like, what do you anticipate might happen 0:51:27.320 --> 0:51:30.880 right now going forward? I don't know. I mean, I 0:51:30.920 --> 0:51:35.319 wasn't expecting that there might be a possible solution to 0:51:35.360 --> 0:51:38.480 this that involves someone like Elon Musk getting involved. You know, Initially, 0:51:38.840 --> 0:51:42.520 my whole thinking was one day, Uh, Congress is going 0:51:42.560 --> 0:51:44.319 to have to deal with this problem. The courts are 0:51:44.320 --> 0:51:45.680 going to have to do with this problem. There's been 0:51:45.719 --> 0:51:50.200 so much talk about Section to thirty and the rights 0:51:50.239 --> 0:51:52.520 that these companies have versus the rights of the people 0:51:52.560 --> 0:51:55.600 to speak and and and be heard, And where do 0:51:55.640 --> 0:51:57.279 you where do you draw these lines and how do 0:51:57.320 --> 0:52:00.080 we work all this out. Well, something's got to be 0:52:00.160 --> 0:52:03.799 done here, because, as musknoted himself on Twitter before this 0:52:03.880 --> 0:52:05.759 was all announced, he was saying, you know, Twitter is 0:52:05.880 --> 0:52:08.279 like the de facto town square at this point. This 0:52:08.360 --> 0:52:11.040 is where the vast majority of public discourse happens. It's 0:52:11.080 --> 0:52:14.320 the vast majority of discourse between citizens, but also between 0:52:14.320 --> 0:52:17.560 government officials and private citizens. And so you know, when 0:52:17.600 --> 0:52:21.600 you have platforms like that cracking down hard on certain 0:52:21.680 --> 0:52:25.359 views and certain people and allowing all kinds of other 0:52:25.600 --> 0:52:28.680 misinformation and hate speech to be you know, proliferate and 0:52:29.160 --> 0:52:32.239 be pervasive on the platform that is that they approve of, 0:52:32.560 --> 0:52:35.879 you end up with a really unbalanced, uh situation. That's 0:52:35.920 --> 0:52:37.960 not good for discourse, and it's not good for democracy, 0:52:38.000 --> 0:52:41.200 it's not good for society. Must cares about that very deeply. 0:52:41.239 --> 0:52:42.920 I love that he cares about that deeply. You know, 0:52:42.960 --> 0:52:45.160 he really does want to preserve freedom and make sure 0:52:45.200 --> 0:52:48.520 that that Twitter remains a free platform for pre expression, which, 0:52:48.520 --> 0:52:50.480 by the way, they have a ringing tribute to in 0:52:50.480 --> 0:52:52.640 their terms of service. Their mission statement is that they're 0:52:52.680 --> 0:52:55.759 all about free expression and representing a diverse range of 0:52:55.760 --> 0:52:58.480 perspectives on their platform. Um, but you know, what they 0:52:58.520 --> 0:53:00.239 give with one hand, they take away with the other 0:53:00.280 --> 0:53:03.839 by having these policies that that have their ideology backed 0:53:03.840 --> 0:53:06.080 into it, and you have to conform with it or 0:53:06.080 --> 0:53:08.520 else you can't be on a platform. So I always 0:53:08.560 --> 0:53:12.360 expected that there would hopefully one day be some solution 0:53:12.360 --> 0:53:14.640 that either comes from the courts or from Congress to 0:53:14.760 --> 0:53:16.480 deal with this problem, or maybe even like at at 0:53:16.520 --> 0:53:18.359 the state level, some of these laws at the state 0:53:18.400 --> 0:53:21.400 level of being passed to prevent these companies from engaging 0:53:21.400 --> 0:53:25.319 in viewpoint discrimination. You know, maybe maybe the answer is 0:53:25.680 --> 0:53:28.680 we make uh we we amend the Civil Rights Act 0:53:28.800 --> 0:53:31.799 to say that political belief is a protected class and 0:53:31.840 --> 0:53:33.719 you can't discriminate on that basis, you know, because you 0:53:33.719 --> 0:53:36.240 can't discriminate based on race or gender or religion or whatever. 0:53:36.440 --> 0:53:38.720 Why not make political belief one of those things that's protected. 0:53:39.120 --> 0:53:41.600 Or maybe we just make it unlawful for these companies 0:53:41.600 --> 0:53:43.960 because they're so large. You know, if you have more 0:53:43.960 --> 0:53:46.320 than fifty million daily active users, you can't engage in 0:53:46.400 --> 0:53:49.400 viewpoint discrimination. You know. Maybe those are the answers. I 0:53:49.440 --> 0:53:51.600 don't know, but must keep getting involved. Is very interesting 0:53:51.640 --> 0:53:55.040 because his commitment is to free speech, and he seems 0:53:55.080 --> 0:53:57.480 to be wanting to get influential by getting on the board. 0:53:57.760 --> 0:54:01.640 I have no idea what will actually resulting down the road, 0:54:01.719 --> 0:54:03.120 or whether or not he'll be able to exert any 0:54:03.120 --> 0:54:04.759 influence over them. I know that they're going to be 0:54:04.960 --> 0:54:07.160 very resistant internally at that company. I mean, you can 0:54:07.160 --> 0:54:09.319 see it already. You've seen some of the reactions to 0:54:09.520 --> 0:54:14.680 his appointments to board. So I'm really fascinated. This is, 0:54:14.800 --> 0:54:17.839 you know, me putting on my lawyer hat and analyzing this. 0:54:18.320 --> 0:54:21.960 Have you thought about filing a lawsuit? One question? And 0:54:22.040 --> 0:54:25.200 second part of that question, you can clearly show damages 0:54:25.640 --> 0:54:29.080 because I know based on the the impact that that 0:54:29.120 --> 0:54:32.640 has had on out Kicks business. When suddenly you weren't 0:54:32.680 --> 0:54:36.200 able to share headlines and articles from the Babylon B, 0:54:36.840 --> 0:54:40.600 I'm sure that your website traffic goes down, which creates 0:54:40.640 --> 0:54:45.040 a substantial impact on your overall revenue. Now you mentioned 0:54:45.360 --> 0:54:48.000 people can respond to that by going to Babylon B 0:54:48.160 --> 0:54:51.120 and spending money that they might not have spent otherwise 0:54:51.120 --> 0:54:55.640 to support your fight. But over time, the impact of Twitter, 0:54:55.719 --> 0:54:59.319 I imagine on your traffic was substantial. Have you thought 0:54:59.360 --> 0:55:01.839 about a loss too, And what kind of damages from 0:55:01.840 --> 0:55:05.160 a traffic perspective which leads to dollars are you seeing 0:55:05.239 --> 0:55:08.640 in your business. I'd take it beyond traffic too. I 0:55:08.640 --> 0:55:10.920 mean when you talk about the damage of being removed 0:55:11.000 --> 0:55:15.879 from from public discourse, I mean just being sidelined from 0:55:15.880 --> 0:55:18.720 the conversation if you want, if you want your brand 0:55:18.800 --> 0:55:20.839 to be relevant, if you you know, like when we're 0:55:20.840 --> 0:55:22.799 out there, we're talking about you must you know, Elon 0:55:22.880 --> 0:55:25.520 must interacts with our content on a regular basis. There's 0:55:25.560 --> 0:55:28.080 lots of people with very large following to interact with 0:55:28.080 --> 0:55:30.480 our content, who shared, who talked about it. If we're 0:55:30.520 --> 0:55:33.120 sidelined and remove from that conversation, we become less and 0:55:33.160 --> 0:55:36.279 less relevant every day. Um, you almost become forgotten when 0:55:36.320 --> 0:55:38.719 you're not out there where the conversation is happening. So 0:55:38.719 --> 0:55:41.319 there's there's a cost that's not even like monetary that 0:55:41.360 --> 0:55:44.600 you can't quantify. It's very difficult to quantify um. But 0:55:44.640 --> 0:55:48.879 then yes, again, the traffic that you lose um over 0:55:48.920 --> 0:55:52.080 the course of time, all the media attention and and 0:55:52.120 --> 0:55:54.719 the people signing up and subscribing and getting really fired up. 0:55:54.719 --> 0:55:57.400 That last for a matter of days, and then it 0:55:57.520 --> 0:56:01.040 subsides and it goes away and life goes back to normal. 0:56:01.160 --> 0:56:03.360 People get mad about other things and get worked up 0:56:03.360 --> 0:56:05.840 about other things and stop thinking about you, and the 0:56:05.880 --> 0:56:08.319 traffic is still gone. The problem still remains. You're still 0:56:08.360 --> 0:56:11.279 off the platform. And so long term, you're right, it does. 0:56:11.360 --> 0:56:13.920 It does have an effect in terms of like an 0:56:13.920 --> 0:56:17.279 actual lawsuit, like what you would sue them for. That's 0:56:17.360 --> 0:56:20.000 very difficult. You know. There have been suits that there 0:56:20.000 --> 0:56:22.520 have been challenges that have been brought that try to 0:56:22.600 --> 0:56:25.680 argue that you know, these companies, uh, you know are 0:56:26.080 --> 0:56:31.359 for example, um, the modern public square, um, and that 0:56:31.440 --> 0:56:33.560 you have a right to be there whatever, and some 0:56:33.640 --> 0:56:36.719 of these illegal efforts that people have launched against them 0:56:36.920 --> 0:56:40.719 have failed spectacularly in the courts. UM. And you know, 0:56:40.760 --> 0:56:43.560 there's been some a lot of commentary on that. Justice 0:56:43.600 --> 0:56:47.040 Thomas on the Supreme Court weighed in recently UM to 0:56:47.120 --> 0:56:50.520 talk about how, UM, the section to thirty immunity that 0:56:50.560 --> 0:56:53.200 these companies have been have been given by the lower 0:56:53.200 --> 0:56:56.680 courts where they it's been interpreted so extravagantly to basically 0:56:56.760 --> 0:56:59.800 they can moderate however they want to, and whether the 0:57:00.120 --> 0:57:03.160 tension was really for them to be able to do that, Um, 0:57:03.239 --> 0:57:06.160 is in question, and maybe there is an answer to 0:57:06.239 --> 0:57:08.920 that by applying like common terrier doctrine. You know, where 0:57:08.920 --> 0:57:11.480 they're based. These companies, these they're trying to have their 0:57:11.480 --> 0:57:13.640 taking eat it too, These these big tech companies, they 0:57:13.680 --> 0:57:15.880 want to be they want to be able to um 0:57:16.080 --> 0:57:19.920 uh basically have complete immunity for what's on their platform 0:57:20.000 --> 0:57:22.080 by saying, we're just a conduit. We're just a conduit. 0:57:22.120 --> 0:57:24.480 We're not responsible for whatever said here. But then when 0:57:24.480 --> 0:57:26.120 there's a message that they don't like, they say, oh, 0:57:26.160 --> 0:57:27.880 we don't want to be the speaker of that message. 0:57:27.920 --> 0:57:29.680 We want to we don't want your we don't want 0:57:29.720 --> 0:57:31.360 that to be our voice. Well, it's not your voice. 0:57:31.360 --> 0:57:33.440 You're just a conduit. It's not your speech. Are you 0:57:33.520 --> 0:57:36.000 the speaker or aren't you the speaker? You know, if 0:57:36.000 --> 0:57:38.280 you treat them like common terriers and apply that kind 0:57:38.320 --> 0:57:41.640 of regulatory uh, you know, restrictions on them that common 0:57:41.640 --> 0:57:45.440 carriers have, there's there's precedent for that happening without it 0:57:45.520 --> 0:57:48.080 being a First Amendment issue, where these companies don't have 0:57:48.120 --> 0:57:50.480 speech rights anymore. You know, they can still say whatever 0:57:50.520 --> 0:57:53.120 they want, there's just limits on how much they can 0:57:53.160 --> 0:57:55.840 restrict other people's right to say what they want because 0:57:55.880 --> 0:57:59.720 they're just conduits for other people's information and speech. So 0:58:00.280 --> 0:58:02.919 there's an interesting conversation to be had there. I think 0:58:02.960 --> 0:58:05.720 that before we could actually bring an action, the law 0:58:05.760 --> 0:58:09.000 would need to be changed to be more favorable to us, 0:58:09.160 --> 0:58:10.600 or you know, the courts are gonna have to weigh 0:58:10.600 --> 0:58:12.200 in on us and say, up to this point, it's 0:58:12.200 --> 0:58:15.320 been they've gotten it wrong, it's been interpreted incorrectly. Seth, 0:58:15.440 --> 0:58:17.480 what do you wish The last couple of questions for 0:58:17.560 --> 0:58:19.200 you here, what do you wish you had known about 0:58:19.200 --> 0:58:21.960 the media business that you know now that you didn't 0:58:21.960 --> 0:58:24.320 know when you started? Because this is wins and losses. 0:58:24.400 --> 0:58:27.200 We talk with a large audience out there about the 0:58:27.200 --> 0:58:29.840 wins and losses of everyday life. It can be in sports, 0:58:29.880 --> 0:58:32.040 it can be in politics, it can be in business. 0:58:32.640 --> 0:58:35.160 What do you wish you had known that you didn't 0:58:35.160 --> 0:58:37.240 know about the media business? What do you wish you 0:58:37.280 --> 0:58:41.080 maybe had changed? As everybody who runs a business learns 0:58:41.120 --> 0:58:43.800 and makes mistakes along the way, what would you say 0:58:43.840 --> 0:58:47.280 to people out there listening in that respect? Such a 0:58:47.320 --> 0:58:50.080 good question. Um, I haven't had time to give that 0:58:50.160 --> 0:58:52.040 a lot of thought, but I mean, just off the 0:58:52.080 --> 0:58:55.000 top of my head. Uh, you know, I didn't know 0:58:55.360 --> 0:58:57.760 going into all this, And maybe it's just the type 0:58:57.760 --> 0:58:59.760 of site that we're running, you know, like on the 0:58:59.800 --> 0:59:01.800 one hand, it's like we're making jokes, we're trying to 0:59:01.800 --> 0:59:04.080 make people laugh, you know, but at the same time, 0:59:04.120 --> 0:59:06.120 we're also trying to make them think. And I think 0:59:06.120 --> 0:59:09.040 it's I didn't know how rewarding it would be to 0:59:09.160 --> 0:59:12.000 be out there with a voice in the in the 0:59:12.160 --> 0:59:15.640 in the public, in the conversation, where you know, you're 0:59:15.640 --> 0:59:19.360 dealing with really important issues and there's really bad ideas 0:59:19.400 --> 0:59:21.920 out there and in some cases, you know, some of 0:59:21.960 --> 0:59:25.280 the when you have somebody that's when you have people 0:59:25.320 --> 0:59:28.960 who have abandoned reason altogether and they're irrational on purpose, 0:59:29.400 --> 0:59:31.919 Arguing with them is not very effective because you're using 0:59:31.920 --> 0:59:34.320 reason and they've abandoned reason. So the best thing that 0:59:34.320 --> 0:59:36.320 you can do is to mock and ridicule them, and 0:59:36.360 --> 0:59:38.360 that's what the Babylon b does. And I had I 0:59:38.440 --> 0:59:41.280 had no idea how rewarding, how mission based, it would 0:59:41.320 --> 0:59:44.080 be to go beyond just simply running a media company 0:59:44.120 --> 0:59:46.560 that's focused on like making money, to being running a 0:59:46.560 --> 0:59:50.800 median media company that's speaking truth to culture, ridiculing bad ideas, 0:59:50.840 --> 0:59:53.680 which I think is a moral good um, and and 0:59:53.720 --> 0:59:56.680 trying to preserve freedom and restore sanity in an age 0:59:56.680 --> 0:59:59.520 where both are under assault every day and like crazy 0:59:59.600 --> 1:00:02.400 ridiculou with ways and so just being on the front 1:00:02.400 --> 1:00:05.280 lines of that battle and fighting back against the censorship 1:00:05.320 --> 1:00:08.600 and the effort to you know, shove ideology and downward 1:00:08.640 --> 1:00:11.600 throats that that that we don't want um, and the 1:00:11.640 --> 1:00:14.480 effort to silence and suppress our voices. Being involved in 1:00:14.480 --> 1:00:18.600 that is extremely rewarding, far beyond you know, whatever whatever 1:00:18.720 --> 1:00:21.920 financial reward there is. And running a popular media company 1:00:21.960 --> 1:00:24.160 that's you know, it's got a lot of eyeballs and 1:00:24.280 --> 1:00:26.760 was generating a lot of traffic UM. So I didn't 1:00:26.760 --> 1:00:28.919 know that. I didn't know what I was getting into 1:00:28.960 --> 1:00:30.920 with that. But with that also comes the weight of 1:00:30.960 --> 1:00:33.800 a lot of responsibility. You know, everything you say is scrutinized, 1:00:33.840 --> 1:00:37.320 everything you do is scrutinized. Um. But you know, we're 1:00:37.400 --> 1:00:39.160 very fortunate to have a ton of support, a lot 1:00:39.200 --> 1:00:41.200 of people in our corner, and I think we're fighting 1:00:41.200 --> 1:00:43.040 a fight that's worth fighting. So it doesn't have to 1:00:43.080 --> 1:00:45.240 just be about the business. For me, what I learned 1:00:45.280 --> 1:00:47.680 is it's this goes way beyond business. You know, there's 1:00:47.720 --> 1:00:50.200 a lot of things here that are really of value 1:00:50.280 --> 1:00:53.040 and that are rewarding and being involved. Uh. You know, 1:00:53.080 --> 1:00:58.320 in these discussions, the right is used to being attacked 1:00:58.520 --> 1:01:04.880 and ridiculed and the left is not. That makes that 1:01:05.120 --> 1:01:09.720 a very fertile area to be able to puncture that 1:01:09.920 --> 1:01:13.800 that that sort of illusion. And what I have found 1:01:14.000 --> 1:01:18.960 is disagreement doesn't really bother people on the far left wing. 1:01:19.800 --> 1:01:26.880 Ridicule uh, and satire and humor really genuinely bother them 1:01:26.920 --> 1:01:30.680 in a way that disagreement does not. Uh why do 1:01:30.760 --> 1:01:33.640 you think? And and I'm I'm just curious big picture 1:01:33.720 --> 1:01:36.600 for you. You're around the same age as me. We 1:01:36.680 --> 1:01:41.000 grew up when David Letterman or Jay Leno or whoever, 1:01:41.120 --> 1:01:45.120 Conan O'Brien, they tended to take even handed shots. Whether 1:01:45.160 --> 1:01:48.000 it was Bill Clinton got made fun of like crazy, right. 1:01:48.040 --> 1:01:50.680 I mean, he obviously get left a lot of a 1:01:50.720 --> 1:01:54.000 lot of material out there, but so did George W. Bush. 1:01:54.120 --> 1:01:58.880 And it felt fairly even handed. And now, basically in 1:01:58.920 --> 1:02:02.600 the wake of the Cold Air report becoming a default 1:02:02.680 --> 1:02:05.720 you know, uh, news news show that now is in 1:02:05.840 --> 1:02:09.360 humor and then you've got Saturday Night Live, they started 1:02:09.360 --> 1:02:12.440 to all pull their punches on the left wing, and 1:02:12.480 --> 1:02:14.840 certainly I think it had started to happen before Trump, 1:02:14.880 --> 1:02:17.960 but Trump put it on steroids. Why do you think 1:02:18.040 --> 1:02:22.240 that is? And and how much opening do they leave 1:02:22.360 --> 1:02:25.280 for you? Because there's almost nobody else out there throwing 1:02:25.320 --> 1:02:29.439 these kind of humor and satire punches. I think there's 1:02:29.480 --> 1:02:33.840 a lot of desire on the right, um, amongst conservatives 1:02:34.720 --> 1:02:38.280 oftentimes very very often times in like the Christian community 1:02:38.360 --> 1:02:40.880 that I've been a part of in my early life. 1:02:40.920 --> 1:02:44.280 In adult life, you know this this desire to be 1:02:44.400 --> 1:02:48.320 at peace and to plain ice and try to get 1:02:48.360 --> 1:02:51.240 alone and you know, reach across the aisle and find 1:02:51.640 --> 1:02:54.200 common ground and all of these things. There's there's a 1:02:54.240 --> 1:02:57.400 lot of desire to do that. Um, there's a lot 1:02:57.440 --> 1:03:02.000 of desire to avoid um the can pentiousness of of 1:03:02.040 --> 1:03:05.600 being really confrontational are engaging in those fights. And I 1:03:05.640 --> 1:03:07.880 think that you know, it's it's tricky too when you 1:03:07.880 --> 1:03:10.640 when you start talking about ridicule and mockery, those things 1:03:10.680 --> 1:03:13.800 sound very negative, They sound like like personal attacks, right, 1:03:14.280 --> 1:03:17.000 And what I think that the beatas very effectively and 1:03:17.240 --> 1:03:19.680 what I when I when I summarize our our mission 1:03:19.720 --> 1:03:21.880 statement if we have one. We don't technically have one. 1:03:21.920 --> 1:03:23.880 But when I summarize, what we're trying to do is 1:03:23.880 --> 1:03:26.120 we're trying to we're trying to make people laugh but 1:03:26.160 --> 1:03:28.640 also think. But in that process, we're trying to ridicule 1:03:28.680 --> 1:03:32.240 bad ideas. You know, ridicule bad ideas, And that's it's 1:03:32.280 --> 1:03:34.640 the ideas themselves that are the target's, the ideas that 1:03:34.680 --> 1:03:37.040 are harmful as, the ideas that you need to mock 1:03:37.120 --> 1:03:39.840 and tear down and make fun of before young people 1:03:39.920 --> 1:03:42.360 start to think they're good ideas and grow up thinking 1:03:42.400 --> 1:03:44.800 they're great ideas and put them into policy and into practice, 1:03:44.880 --> 1:03:47.560 and in society as a whole suffers for it. And 1:03:47.600 --> 1:03:49.920 so I think there's a there's a moral necessity to 1:03:50.040 --> 1:03:53.840 ridiculing and mocking um bad ideas. And and if you know, 1:03:53.880 --> 1:03:56.680 if people can understand that that it's actually a good thing, 1:03:56.920 --> 1:03:59.240 then maybe they'd be more emboldened to do it without 1:03:59.280 --> 1:04:01.520 feeling bad about it, like they're doing something wrong. You're 1:04:01.520 --> 1:04:03.880 not doing anything wrong by ridiculing and mocking bad ideas. 1:04:03.920 --> 1:04:06.440 You're helping people, um, and you're standing up for the 1:04:06.480 --> 1:04:08.760 truth UM, And you're cutting through all the noise and 1:04:09.000 --> 1:04:11.960 pushing back on the insanity. But like I said, that's 1:04:11.960 --> 1:04:13.360 one of the only ways you can even deal with 1:04:13.400 --> 1:04:15.720 insanity when people have abandoned rationality. It's not like you 1:04:15.760 --> 1:04:18.160 can just have a conversation with them and reason with 1:04:18.200 --> 1:04:21.480 them because they've abandoned reason. So ridiculing mockery are really 1:04:21.480 --> 1:04:23.720 your only choice, and they're the most effective in that 1:04:23.800 --> 1:04:27.160 in that context. So um, I think, you know, I 1:04:27.200 --> 1:04:29.920 think that there's a lot of fertile ground. There's a 1:04:29.920 --> 1:04:32.480 lot of opportunity for people to come in and make 1:04:32.520 --> 1:04:34.160 the jokes that you're not supposed to make and do 1:04:34.240 --> 1:04:36.400 these kinds of things, because look, the left has given 1:04:36.440 --> 1:04:39.040 this up. They were so good at comedy and they 1:04:39.080 --> 1:04:43.120 were so good at ridicule. Right now, comedians are being 1:04:43.240 --> 1:04:45.760 so careful. The comedians on the left. You watch these 1:04:45.840 --> 1:04:49.160 late night shows, they're going for applause, not amusements. They 1:04:49.160 --> 1:04:51.440 want the crowd to affirm them and clap for them 1:04:51.520 --> 1:04:54.040 rather than laugh. Like they're not even really concerned with 1:04:54.080 --> 1:04:56.200 hitting laughs. They're just preaching and in the in the 1:04:56.280 --> 1:04:59.040 choir is applauding them. And it's crazy to see that 1:04:59.080 --> 1:05:02.800 happening because comedians satirist humorous. Our job is the poke 1:05:02.880 --> 1:05:05.560 holes in the popular narrative, not promoted, not push it 1:05:05.600 --> 1:05:08.080 on everyone. And when comedians have started to go this 1:05:08.120 --> 1:05:10.360 direction of trying to promote it so that you know, 1:05:10.400 --> 1:05:13.440 they're getting virtue points, whether up there preaching instead of 1:05:13.480 --> 1:05:16.400 actually doing comedy and making people laugh. You know, comedy 1:05:16.400 --> 1:05:18.920 by its nature's offensive. It's not a safe space being 1:05:18.920 --> 1:05:20.560 at a comedy show. You're gonna get made fun of. 1:05:20.600 --> 1:05:22.320 There's gonna be things that are uncomfortable and they make 1:05:22.360 --> 1:05:26.040 you squirm, and that's good. It's confronting us with uncomfortable truths, 1:05:26.120 --> 1:05:28.360 and that's how you grow, That's how you become more resilient. 1:05:29.080 --> 1:05:30.920 And so I think that anybody who goes in there 1:05:30.960 --> 1:05:33.240 and who's willing to make the jokes that you're not 1:05:33.320 --> 1:05:36.160 supposed to make anymore and push back on that stuff, 1:05:36.400 --> 1:05:38.480 they're going to try to silence them. But look what 1:05:38.520 --> 1:05:40.800 happened with Dave Chappelle, Look what's happening with Joe Rogan. 1:05:40.840 --> 1:05:43.840 These guys aren't losing. You know, we're not losing right now. 1:05:44.280 --> 1:05:45.920 I think all of us are winning. The effort to 1:05:45.920 --> 1:05:50.240 silence us is only amplifying our voices. Last question for you, 1:05:51.240 --> 1:05:55.800 have there been comedians who are known are thought to 1:05:55.920 --> 1:05:59.280 be a left wing that have interacted with the Babylon 1:05:59.400 --> 1:06:01.760 b have come along and said, you know what, you 1:06:01.800 --> 1:06:05.120 guys are pretty funny that have surprised you. It kind 1:06:05.160 --> 1:06:08.360 of builds out of what you were just saying. Comedy 1:06:08.400 --> 1:06:12.480 that is designed to uh, to uplift people in positions 1:06:12.520 --> 1:06:17.840 of power is propaganda. It's not actually comedy. Um, have 1:06:18.080 --> 1:06:22.240 you seen and received positive feedback from people that might 1:06:22.280 --> 1:06:25.840 have been perceived to be of a different political bent, 1:06:26.040 --> 1:06:29.800 just because the great thing about comedy is it should 1:06:29.840 --> 1:06:32.960 work no matter what your political beliefs are. If you 1:06:33.000 --> 1:06:35.000 have to sit around and think, hey, is this funny 1:06:35.080 --> 1:06:38.360 for a women's studies professor at Amherst, Well, that's not 1:06:38.480 --> 1:06:42.280 exactly the you know, the the faculty lounge there. That's 1:06:42.320 --> 1:06:46.280 the exact absence of comedy. Comedy is reacting immediately and 1:06:46.320 --> 1:06:52.160 instantaneously smiling before you have time to think about the underlying, uh, 1:06:52.200 --> 1:06:55.760 you know, root causes of the humor itself. Yeah. And 1:06:56.240 --> 1:06:58.120 there's a good point. And I kind of reject this 1:06:58.200 --> 1:07:00.960 idea that there's like there's we should think in terms 1:07:00.960 --> 1:07:03.840 of like right wing comedians and left wing comedians if 1:07:03.840 --> 1:07:06.320 you're a right wing if you're a strictly right wing comedian, 1:07:06.560 --> 1:07:09.240 is like pushing a narrative yourself. You know that, then 1:07:09.280 --> 1:07:12.160 you're you're not doing it right either. Um. I think 1:07:12.160 --> 1:07:14.240 that there should be you know you, you should be 1:07:14.320 --> 1:07:18.960 joking about whatever deserves the mockery, joking about whatever deserves 1:07:19.000 --> 1:07:21.600 to be joked about, and that then that involves examining 1:07:21.600 --> 1:07:24.920 your own side, your own motives and inclinations, your own practices, 1:07:24.960 --> 1:07:28.000 your own hypocrisy. We try to do that ourselves quite 1:07:28.040 --> 1:07:30.400 a bit. Um. But in terms of like somebody from 1:07:30.400 --> 1:07:32.720 the left like coming alongside us and saying, hey, you know, 1:07:32.760 --> 1:07:35.040 I really appreciate I can't think of a single example 1:07:35.080 --> 1:07:38.840 of that happening, Like somebody like who comes who had 1:07:38.880 --> 1:07:40.760 just has a totally different world view than us. There 1:07:40.760 --> 1:07:43.440 may be a couple, but nothing that really jumps to 1:07:43.480 --> 1:07:47.880 mind I can think of, Like some comedians like Bill Maher, 1:07:48.120 --> 1:07:52.080 for example, who I disagree with on many, many, many things, 1:07:52.120 --> 1:07:56.120 but who thinks who thinks cancel culture is a problematic. 1:07:56.280 --> 1:07:59.240 He thinks the woke stuff has gone crazy and over 1:07:59.280 --> 1:08:02.200 the top and is saying, um, he thinks that speech 1:08:02.240 --> 1:08:05.000 suppression is bad and that you shouldn't be trying to 1:08:05.120 --> 1:08:08.560 silence people who disagree with you. Um, you know, he's 1:08:08.560 --> 1:08:10.800 he's more of like an old school liberal that way, 1:08:11.240 --> 1:08:13.600 and has very has been very vocal about those things. 1:08:13.600 --> 1:08:15.640 And I respect that that even though I disagree with 1:08:15.680 --> 1:08:18.280 him on a lot of things, he's he gets that 1:08:18.640 --> 1:08:21.800 and and understands that. You know, comedy is about, um, 1:08:21.840 --> 1:08:24.320 you know, sometimes making making you a little bit uncomfortable, 1:08:24.400 --> 1:08:26.240 making you squirm a little bit. It's not just about 1:08:26.479 --> 1:08:30.639 you know, reaffirming you and and not stepping on anybody's toes. Um, 1:08:30.640 --> 1:08:35.880 and anybody who does should be silence outstanding stuff. He 1:08:36.080 --> 1:08:39.559 is Seth Dylan with the Babylon Be. Encourage you to 1:08:39.600 --> 1:08:42.759 follow Seth online while you still can. Hopefully the Babylon 1:08:42.840 --> 1:08:45.800 Be will be back on Twitter in the meantime. UH 1:08:45.800 --> 1:08:48.320 and people can obviously go to your website and see 1:08:48.320 --> 1:08:50.120 all the content that you guys are putting up on 1:08:50.160 --> 1:08:52.920 a day to day basis. I know you've been crazy busy. 1:08:53.040 --> 1:08:55.679 I appreciate the time. What else do you want people 1:08:55.720 --> 1:08:58.040 to know that I didn't give you an opportunity to 1:08:58.040 --> 1:09:01.720 tell them to close out here? I don't know. I 1:09:01.760 --> 1:09:04.240 mean when people people ask for how they can support us, 1:09:04.280 --> 1:09:06.040 and I tell them there's a couple of ways, And 1:09:06.080 --> 1:09:08.160 the first one is not like by setting us money. 1:09:08.200 --> 1:09:11.759 The first one is the a bold defender of the truth. 1:09:11.960 --> 1:09:15.080 When when, when Twitter, when Facebook, when YouTube, when, whoever 1:09:15.120 --> 1:09:16.639 it is tries to get you to say that two 1:09:16.640 --> 1:09:18.679 and two make five, tell them, no, two and two 1:09:18.680 --> 1:09:21.639 make four. And I'm not budging on that. Insist on 1:09:22.080 --> 1:09:25.040 recognizing reality for what it is. Speak the truth boldly, 1:09:25.080 --> 1:09:26.720 even it means, even if it means you pay a 1:09:26.760 --> 1:09:30.120 penalty for it. You know, like I've said before, like 1:09:30.160 --> 1:09:32.400 from the stage at these events, I'm talking about this stuff. 1:09:32.400 --> 1:09:34.280 I'm like, before this ever happened, by the way, before 1:09:34.280 --> 1:09:36.439 we ever got banned on Twitter. I'm like, the greatest 1:09:36.439 --> 1:09:39.439 achievement on Twitter is not going viral or getting verified, 1:09:39.439 --> 1:09:42.520 it's getting banned for saying something true. You know, paying 1:09:42.680 --> 1:09:44.800 paying a price for the truth is an achievement. There 1:09:44.840 --> 1:09:46.280 are people who have been willing to write down their 1:09:46.360 --> 1:09:49.280 lives for for freedom and for the truth, and we're 1:09:49.320 --> 1:09:51.720 not willing to give up our Twitter accounts. I mean, 1:09:51.760 --> 1:09:53.680 it's a it's a big deal with's at stake right now, 1:09:53.720 --> 1:09:55.840 and so the best way to support us is for 1:09:55.920 --> 1:09:58.360 us to rally together. We should all be telling the 1:09:58.360 --> 1:10:01.280 truth boldly and not backing down on that, and eventually 1:10:01.800 --> 1:10:03.800 things will swing back in our direction. They're going to 1:10:03.920 --> 1:10:06.320 have to make changes. They can't ban millions of us, 1:10:06.320 --> 1:10:08.320 tens of millions of us, or they will ban themselves 1:10:08.360 --> 1:10:11.200 into a relevance to make them do that. But beyond that, Yeah, 1:10:11.240 --> 1:10:15.280 go to our website subscribe. That helps too, he set Dylan. 1:10:15.360 --> 1:10:18.920 I'm Clay Travis. This has been Wins and Losses. Subscribed 1:10:18.960 --> 1:10:21.559 to this as well forty five long form interviews. I 1:10:21.600 --> 1:10:23.400 think you will love them. If this is your first 1:10:23.400 --> 1:10:25.880 thanks for checking them out. Go check out more in 1:10:26.000 --> 1:10:28.679 the past, and we'll be back sooner rather than later. 1:10:28.800 --> 1:10:31.040 This has been Wins and Losses.