1 00:00:06,790 --> 00:00:10,690 Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host, 2 00:00:10,869 --> 00:00:15,740 Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan. Hey, everybody. 3 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. In the 4 00:00:19,060 --> 00:00:23,060 Speaker 2: summer of 1969, a group of young women followed Charles 5 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 2: Manson into one of the most notorious murder sprees in 6 00:00:26,460 --> 00:00:30,110 Speaker 2: American history. But how did these women fall under his spell? 7 00:00:30,470 --> 00:00:33,070 Speaker 2: And what happened when they finally began to question the 8 00:00:33,110 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 2: man they had followed? The film, Charlie Says, explores those 9 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:41,510 Speaker 2: questions through the experiences of three convicted Manson followers, including 10 00:00:41,650 --> 00:00:47,070 Speaker 2: Susan Sadie Atkins, played by today's guest, actress Marianne Rendon. 11 00:00:47,970 --> 00:00:50,750 Speaker 2: Marianne joins us to talk about stepping into the mind 12 00:00:50,870 --> 00:00:54,660 Speaker 2: of a real-life killer and the disturbing psychology behind one 13 00:00:54,680 --> 00:01:00,140 Speaker 2: of America's most infamous criminal cases. Marianne, welcome to Killer Thriller. 14 00:01:00,180 --> 00:01:02,140 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for talking with me today. 15 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. 16 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: I don't even know where to start with this film. 17 00:01:09,500 --> 00:01:16,270 Speaker 2: I was so deeply unsettled in, I think, an important 18 00:01:16,330 --> 00:01:20,390 Speaker 2: way by this. It's so good, and it's so unlike 19 00:01:20,550 --> 00:01:24,170 Speaker 2: any of the other films and TV shows based on 20 00:01:24,650 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 2: the Manson case and I just really appreciated how it 21 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,819 Speaker 2: digs so deeply into the cult itself and how these 22 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 2: women could have been seduced and brainwashed into doing these 23 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:40,380 Speaker 2: horrible things. But just to start, for anyone who hasn't 24 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 2: seen Charlie Says, tell us a little about the film 25 00:01:44,810 --> 00:01:48,050 Speaker 2: and the woman that you portray, who is Susan Sadie Atkins. 26 00:01:49,430 --> 00:01:53,330 Speaker 4: Yeah, so Charlie Says is, like you said, more of 27 00:01:53,450 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 4: a portrait of Three of the Manson women, they focus 28 00:01:57,690 --> 00:02:04,570 Speaker 4: more on them, you know, Leslie, Patricia, and Susan, Sadie. 29 00:02:05,370 --> 00:02:11,350 Speaker 4: And it really follows how Leslie in particular gets involved 30 00:02:11,410 --> 00:02:15,210 Speaker 4: with the family. So, you know, what brought her to 31 00:02:15,389 --> 00:02:18,870 Speaker 4: the ranch and meeting Manson and meeting the rest of 32 00:02:18,910 --> 00:02:20,740 Speaker 4: the family and, you know, everyone in the cast is 33 00:02:20,750 --> 00:02:21,380 Speaker 4: so wonderful. 34 00:02:22,990 --> 00:02:23,410 Speaker 3: And then it. 35 00:02:23,430 --> 00:02:28,190 Speaker 4: Really shows how easy it was for these really young 36 00:02:28,250 --> 00:02:34,470 Speaker 4: people to just be really easily coerced into anything from, 37 00:02:34,490 --> 00:02:38,510 Speaker 4: you know, sort of like almost torture tactics of sickness 38 00:02:38,669 --> 00:02:45,410 Speaker 4: and drugs and, you know, just having a sense of belonging, 39 00:02:45,430 --> 00:02:51,930 Speaker 4: you know, isolating them so much from their beliefs families 40 00:02:52,030 --> 00:02:55,790 Speaker 4: and their and the people that knew them so and 41 00:02:55,830 --> 00:02:58,250 Speaker 4: then it follows the second half of the film their 42 00:02:58,270 --> 00:03:03,980 Speaker 4: incarceration and their work with um with carlene faith who 43 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:07,340 Speaker 4: was their social worker played by merritt weaver who's incredible 44 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:11,839 Speaker 4: oh incredible um really how she was so instrumental to 45 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 4: their process of de-brainwashing which. 46 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:18,270 Speaker 3: Took a lot of time um And that's, that's really 47 00:03:18,370 --> 00:03:18,730 Speaker 3: the film. 48 00:03:18,790 --> 00:03:22,450 Speaker 4: And, you know, Matt Smith is wonderful as Charlie and, um, 49 00:03:22,490 --> 00:03:24,810 Speaker 4: I think did a really beautiful job and, you know, 50 00:03:24,910 --> 00:03:27,710 Speaker 4: it's what a, what a, what a hard part to play. 51 00:03:27,810 --> 00:03:32,070 Speaker 2: And, you know, yeah, it's so it's, uh, you know, 52 00:03:32,210 --> 00:03:36,070 Speaker 2: when you, when you see it on film, the, one 53 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,540 Speaker 2: of the reasons to me why this is so arresting 54 00:03:38,580 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 2: this particular, um, you know, vision is because you, you 55 00:03:42,660 --> 00:03:47,170 Speaker 2: see it's predominantly women and, He's the only one, like, 56 00:03:47,550 --> 00:03:52,090 Speaker 2: it just really puts into stark relief the manipulation and 57 00:03:52,150 --> 00:03:59,750 Speaker 2: the misogynistic overtones of all of it and how this one, 58 00:03:59,780 --> 00:04:03,339 Speaker 2: you know, I think the screenwriter described him as, like, 59 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 2: a charismatic loser, which I think is an excellent term. 60 00:04:07,260 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 4: Yeah. 61 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,540 Speaker 2: But you really see it, and that's one of the 62 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,570 Speaker 2: ways that it's so heartbreaking is you're watching these, women 63 00:04:16,650 --> 00:04:21,370 Speaker 2: be manipulated and but you know you really can't understate 64 00:04:21,470 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 2: how important the drugs were and how how he gave 65 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,580 Speaker 2: all of the women he was taking the drugs as 66 00:04:29,620 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 2: well but they were given just like constantly and consistently 67 00:04:33,580 --> 00:04:37,250 Speaker 2: and consistently abused and yeah so you, you said that 68 00:04:37,290 --> 00:04:39,770 Speaker 2: you wouldn't have participated in the film if it had been, 69 00:04:39,990 --> 00:04:43,990 Speaker 2: you know, simply just another Charles Manson biopic. So what 70 00:04:44,050 --> 00:04:47,490 Speaker 2: was it about telling this story through the women's perspectives 71 00:04:47,550 --> 00:04:48,530 Speaker 2: that interested you? 72 00:04:48,550 --> 00:04:51,669 Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, I mean, Guinevere's writing, like you said, like 73 00:04:52,190 --> 00:04:54,990 Speaker 4: she really understands, I mean, she grew up in a cult. 74 00:04:55,029 --> 00:04:57,030 Speaker 4: She wrote a really beautiful piece in the New Yorker 75 00:04:57,089 --> 00:05:02,529 Speaker 4: about growing up in that community. What intrigued me was, was, uh, 76 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:10,790 Speaker 4: what you're saying. It wasn't this sensationalized, gory sort of slasher. 77 00:05:10,810 --> 00:05:16,470 Speaker 4: And they weren't one-dimensional characters whatsoever. I mean, they were 78 00:05:16,510 --> 00:05:18,550 Speaker 4: really trying to look at who these people were and 79 00:05:18,810 --> 00:05:20,310 Speaker 4: why they did the things that they did. 80 00:05:21,460 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 3: I find Susan really interesting. 81 00:05:23,820 --> 00:05:28,380 Speaker 4: I mean, she was one of the much darker people 82 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 4: of the family, I think, similarly to Charlie in that, like, 83 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 4: really all she kind of. 84 00:05:32,940 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 3: Knew was a kind of. 85 00:05:35,860 --> 00:05:40,779 Speaker 4: Feeling of being abandoned and having no one seeking out danger, 86 00:05:40,820 --> 00:05:44,900 Speaker 4: seeking out thrill just from, I mean, I obviously didn't 87 00:05:45,100 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 4: know her and she died before, you know, any of 88 00:05:47,660 --> 00:05:52,020 Speaker 4: this came out, but I read her memoir and she 89 00:05:52,060 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 4: wrote it. She eventually became a born again Christian in prison. 90 00:05:56,230 --> 00:05:59,390 Speaker 4: And it was just really interesting to hear about how 91 00:05:59,450 --> 00:06:04,230 Speaker 4: her family lived she grew up around alcoholism and, you know, 92 00:06:04,270 --> 00:06:07,270 Speaker 4: really just this feeling of wanting to belong. And I 93 00:06:07,870 --> 00:06:10,849 Speaker 4: thought in a lot of ways how it was such 94 00:06:10,870 --> 00:06:13,930 Speaker 4: a universal story. And that's what Guinevere is trying to 95 00:06:13,990 --> 00:06:18,450 Speaker 4: express is just like how anyone could, any woman could 96 00:06:18,490 --> 00:06:21,350 Speaker 4: end up in this situation. And I think, you know, 97 00:06:21,410 --> 00:06:26,370 Speaker 4: regardless of being involved in a murder, I think a 98 00:06:26,450 --> 00:06:31,550 Speaker 4: lot of women can relate to being with, someone in 99 00:06:31,870 --> 00:06:35,850 Speaker 4: that kind of power dynamic and losing a sense of 100 00:06:35,890 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 4: themselves doing things that aren't them for the sake of 101 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 4: what they think is love or being loved. 102 00:06:42,980 --> 00:06:47,100 Speaker 2: And it is interesting how this idea of free speech 103 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,870 Speaker 2: and free love and free expression and all of that 104 00:06:51,010 --> 00:06:54,770 Speaker 2: is a part of what he is offering. But that 105 00:06:54,910 --> 00:07:00,849 Speaker 2: actually turns into no freedom whatsoever. It's, it's like, it's, 106 00:07:01,010 --> 00:07:05,580 Speaker 2: it's his version of what that is. And that kind 107 00:07:05,620 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 2: of manipulation is really. 108 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: Scary. 109 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 4: Yeah. 110 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,020 Speaker 3: I mean, without, regardless of being a psychopath. 111 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,230 Speaker 4: There are people that, there are people that are master 112 00:07:18,310 --> 00:07:22,460 Speaker 4: manipulators of, and, and the ability to love bomb you. 113 00:07:22,490 --> 00:07:25,620 Speaker 4: I mean, the way that the women described how, he 114 00:07:25,660 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 4: would just make you feel like you were the only 115 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 4: important person in the world. And who hasn't felt that 116 00:07:32,260 --> 00:07:35,190 Speaker 4: in some, in some way, you know, so, and yeah, 117 00:07:35,210 --> 00:07:37,350 Speaker 4: just this thing of like building them up and then 118 00:07:37,550 --> 00:07:43,970 Speaker 4: immediately tearing them down. And the, and the confusion of 119 00:07:44,010 --> 00:07:47,750 Speaker 4: that and the question, the questioning of that, especially, you know, 120 00:07:47,770 --> 00:07:49,650 Speaker 4: they weren't mature women. 121 00:07:50,230 --> 00:07:53,370 Speaker 2: Right. Right. That's another part that I think we forget, 122 00:07:53,430 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 2: especially because they were, so demonized these women. 123 00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:59,900 Speaker 1: I mean, and rightfully so to a degree. 124 00:07:59,940 --> 00:08:05,739 Speaker 2: But we forget that they were like teenagers and 20 125 00:08:05,740 --> 00:08:10,980 Speaker 2: and not fully formed brains. And that time in history, 126 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: it was just kind of the perfect storm and that 127 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 2: sort of exploitation of wanting to not follow the rules 128 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:25,230 Speaker 2: and not be a part of this system that seemed 129 00:08:25,330 --> 00:08:30,690 Speaker 2: like it was not what anybody wanted. And, you know, 130 00:08:30,810 --> 00:08:32,530 Speaker 2: as a parent, I mean, I have a 14-year-old daughter, 131 00:08:32,570 --> 00:08:35,189 Speaker 2: so I think about these things like, oh, dear God, 132 00:08:35,450 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 2: you know, that thing. 133 00:08:38,510 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: Of, because a couple of these, most of the people. 134 00:08:41,660 --> 00:08:45,220 Speaker 2: I think, and Susan, as you said, included, certainly came 135 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 2: from really troubled backgrounds, and they desperately really needed a 136 00:08:50,620 --> 00:08:55,780 Speaker 2: place to be. But some of them didn't even, I 137 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,620 Speaker 2: think it was Leslie, right. That had a more traditional 138 00:08:58,740 --> 00:09:02,780 Speaker 2: kind of background and urban life that it's like, it 139 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:07,330 Speaker 2: could be, you know, anybody. And I really, so the, 140 00:09:07,450 --> 00:09:11,270 Speaker 2: the film does a great job of almost kind of 141 00:09:11,950 --> 00:09:15,810 Speaker 2: showing how seductive he could be while not there is, 142 00:09:16,230 --> 00:09:18,430 Speaker 2: I want to say straight up. We talk a lot 143 00:09:18,530 --> 00:09:22,970 Speaker 2: on this podcast about, you know, that responsibility of, being 144 00:09:23,030 --> 00:09:25,819 Speaker 2: accountable to someone when you're telling the story of a 145 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,380 Speaker 2: real person and real people who have gone through things. 146 00:09:28,420 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: And I absolutely think this film does that really well 147 00:09:34,300 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: and respectfully. 148 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 2: It does a great job of showing kind of this 149 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 2: slow burn of how you could be seduced by this 150 00:09:45,020 --> 00:09:49,449 Speaker 2: environment where it's all people your age and you have this, 151 00:09:49,790 --> 00:09:53,510 Speaker 2: as we said, freedom that's presented to you. And then 152 00:09:53,650 --> 00:09:57,150 Speaker 2: slowly the abuse comes in. And so there's a really 153 00:09:57,210 --> 00:10:03,140 Speaker 2: powerful scene with you and um manson where he physically 154 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:10,540 Speaker 2: abuses susan and it's particularly upsetting what what she says 155 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: in response to that and it comes at a point 156 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,100 Speaker 2: in the film that really kind of shifts the whole 157 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,780 Speaker 2: story can you talk about shooting that scene a bit 158 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:20,980 Speaker 2: and how that was. 159 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 4: Yeah. Um, I think they did a really beautiful job, 160 00:10:25,059 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 4: like you said, of wanting to show the joy and 161 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,060 Speaker 4: the love like first, you know, just like these people aren't, 162 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 4: you know, they're, they're smart people too. And, and that there, 163 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 4: there was a reason that was, they were staying there. 164 00:10:40,830 --> 00:10:44,150 Speaker 4: And so, yeah, one of the, the dinner scenes where they're, they're, 165 00:10:44,210 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 4: you know, they're finding food in dumpsters and they're, um, 166 00:10:47,540 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 4: they're cooking communally and they're probably eating, you know, rotten salad. 167 00:10:52,500 --> 00:10:58,380 Speaker 4: But my character makes salad and Charlie asks who made 168 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,590 Speaker 4: the salad dressing. And what I had read about a 169 00:11:00,630 --> 00:11:03,969 Speaker 4: lot of, especially with the three girls incarcerated is that 170 00:11:04,690 --> 00:11:08,610 Speaker 4: Sadie was kind of more of the provocateur in terms 171 00:11:08,690 --> 00:11:15,050 Speaker 4: of like giving it back to Charlie, you know, intentionally 172 00:11:15,090 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 4: sort of as for attention. And initially my line wasn't 173 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:23,270 Speaker 4: scripted as it was. And I, I think the line was, well, 174 00:11:23,410 --> 00:11:26,930 Speaker 4: so Charlie says, who made the salad dressing? And Sadie says, 175 00:11:26,950 --> 00:11:31,500 Speaker 4: I did. He's like, well, it tastes like piss. And I, 176 00:11:31,730 --> 00:11:34,370 Speaker 4: and I'm supposed to say, well, hold your nose or something. 177 00:11:34,770 --> 00:11:36,569 Speaker 4: And I just felt sort of as an actor, I 178 00:11:36,590 --> 00:11:38,770 Speaker 4: was like, I think she's got to say something a 179 00:11:38,790 --> 00:11:42,179 Speaker 4: little bit, like, like a little bit more of a, 180 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,990 Speaker 4: you know, being a little shit. So I went to 181 00:11:45,429 --> 00:11:47,570 Speaker 4: behind camera with Mary and Guinevere and I said, can 182 00:11:47,610 --> 00:11:48,189 Speaker 4: I say this? 183 00:11:48,250 --> 00:11:49,370 Speaker 3: And they were like, yeah, that sounds great. 184 00:11:50,090 --> 00:11:53,450 Speaker 4: So I did that and Matt didn't know I was 185 00:11:53,470 --> 00:11:55,950 Speaker 4: going to say what I said. Well, that's because I 186 00:11:55,990 --> 00:11:59,310 Speaker 4: pissed in yours. That's what I had. So then he 187 00:11:59,750 --> 00:12:03,350 Speaker 4: smacks her across the face and then he basically pulls 188 00:12:03,390 --> 00:12:06,710 Speaker 4: her up from the table and really beats her up. 189 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:13,330 Speaker 4: And the reaction shots are all of the girls which. 190 00:12:13,210 --> 00:12:14,670 Speaker 3: I find like very. 191 00:12:14,410 --> 00:12:21,459 Speaker 4: Powerful and that like it's clear that that happens a 192 00:12:21,510 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 4: lot and you're getting to experience it happening for the 193 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,860 Speaker 4: first time for Leslie right. 194 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,020 Speaker 3: And so when I shot that scene. 195 00:12:30,450 --> 00:12:31,830 Speaker 4: At the time I was I mean this was 10 196 00:12:31,830 --> 00:12:33,770 Speaker 4: years ago so I was I was like just out 197 00:12:33,790 --> 00:12:36,809 Speaker 4: of school and I was I was so physically strong 198 00:12:37,370 --> 00:12:39,750 Speaker 4: and Matt and I like did this it was like 199 00:12:39,790 --> 00:12:42,170 Speaker 4: a real we had a we had a fight choreographer 200 00:12:42,220 --> 00:12:44,670 Speaker 4: but like it really did feel like a real fight 201 00:12:45,220 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 4: and I remember we have we had this incredible DP 202 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:54,300 Speaker 4: Crilla Forsberg who was such a physical DP like he 203 00:12:54,340 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 4: was just always right there with you and it was 204 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:00,089 Speaker 4: like this dance with him the whole time and I 205 00:13:00,110 --> 00:13:02,349 Speaker 4: remember him just being like, whoa, Rendon, are you okay? 206 00:13:02,390 --> 00:13:05,270 Speaker 4: And I remember like, I had to put both of 207 00:13:05,350 --> 00:13:09,890 Speaker 4: my hands on the ground because we don't cut. We 208 00:13:09,929 --> 00:13:13,270 Speaker 4: like do the shot and then they follow Leslie. They 209 00:13:13,290 --> 00:13:14,990 Speaker 4: follow me into the kitchen, but I'm in the kitchen 210 00:13:15,050 --> 00:13:17,650 Speaker 4: waiting for Leslie. And I had to tell, cause my 211 00:13:17,710 --> 00:13:18,910 Speaker 4: body thought it was real. 212 00:13:19,830 --> 00:13:20,370 Speaker 1: Yes. 213 00:13:20,490 --> 00:13:20,790 Speaker 2: Right. 214 00:13:20,809 --> 00:13:21,309 Speaker 4: Yeah. 215 00:13:21,330 --> 00:13:22,650 Speaker 3: I had never experienced that before. 216 00:13:22,690 --> 00:13:27,430 Speaker 4: Like I'd done plenty of stage, stage combat and choreography and, 217 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 4: Never before. I mean, I was like, I was like 218 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 4: trying so hard to breathe because I knew we had 219 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 4: to keep shooting. And yeah, that was the first time 220 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 4: where I was like, oh, wow. 221 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 222 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 3: The body doesn't know we're pretending. 223 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 4: Right. 224 00:13:42,470 --> 00:13:44,330 Speaker 1: Cause that's what I was going to ask. 225 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,710 Speaker 2: You know, this material is so, is so dark and 226 00:13:48,870 --> 00:13:52,650 Speaker 2: so complicated and, you know, it's psychologically dark. 227 00:13:52,710 --> 00:13:55,089 Speaker 1: It's physically dark. It's all of that. 228 00:13:55,130 --> 00:13:59,810 Speaker 2: Like, how did you, protect yourself or like how how 229 00:13:59,870 --> 00:14:02,870 Speaker 2: how did you handle that on the daily. 230 00:14:02,510 --> 00:14:07,530 Speaker 4: I'm not sure that I did other than there were 231 00:14:07,550 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 4: just such amazing women around I mean I think that's 232 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,060 Speaker 4: what helped to having like women at the top of 233 00:14:13,140 --> 00:14:18,090 Speaker 4: this whole project for one you know like I I 234 00:14:18,130 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 4: dance naked in the rain and And I get back 235 00:14:21,850 --> 00:14:24,430 Speaker 4: to my trailer and Mary Herron has left me a 236 00:14:24,450 --> 00:14:27,690 Speaker 4: bottle of wine with like a love letter of just like, 237 00:14:27,730 --> 00:14:30,310 Speaker 4: thank you for taking your clothes off for me or 238 00:14:30,330 --> 00:14:34,510 Speaker 4: just for this reason. You know, but also like all 239 00:14:34,530 --> 00:14:38,110 Speaker 4: the rest of, we created a family, like everyone there 240 00:14:38,350 --> 00:14:42,570 Speaker 4: really loved each other. And you could, I mean, I've 241 00:14:42,590 --> 00:14:45,050 Speaker 4: always felt this about California. I've always felt this about 242 00:14:45,090 --> 00:14:48,070 Speaker 4: Los Angeles is like, there is a really dark energy 243 00:14:48,170 --> 00:14:52,140 Speaker 4: there on this sort of underbelly. And it felt, it 244 00:14:52,220 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 4: feels haunted and it, and it, and the, and the 245 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 4: subjects of that felt haunted. I mean, like being in 246 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 4: the neighborhood in which we were shooting those murders felt very. 247 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 3: Very dark. 248 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,820 Speaker 4: So I think the way that I protected myself was 249 00:15:05,860 --> 00:15:07,740 Speaker 4: really just like, we were really checking in with each 250 00:15:07,780 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 4: other a lot. Yeah. 251 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:09,900 Speaker 3: Yeah. 252 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 4: Yeah. And Hannah Murray, who played Leslie and I, I 253 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 4: felt like, you know, we were all staying at the 254 00:15:17,260 --> 00:15:18,380 Speaker 4: same hotel and we. 255 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,700 Speaker 3: Would, We just spent time with each other. We weren't, 256 00:15:20,740 --> 00:15:21,900 Speaker 3: no one was really that isolated. 257 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: Right. 258 00:15:37,330 --> 00:15:41,030 Speaker 2: So Carleen Faith, who is, as we said, played by 259 00:15:41,210 --> 00:15:44,350 Speaker 2: Merritt Weaver, she is an, I mean, well, first of all, 260 00:15:44,410 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 2: Merritt Weaver is an extraordinary actress and, I just, she's 261 00:15:48,300 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 2: wonderful and everything. But so Carlene Faith is an extraordinary 262 00:15:54,230 --> 00:15:57,750 Speaker 2: woman in my opinion. And I didn't actually, this is 263 00:15:57,810 --> 00:16:00,690 Speaker 2: another thing, great thing about this movie is I didn't 264 00:16:00,730 --> 00:16:02,050 Speaker 2: know that she was a real person. 265 00:16:02,950 --> 00:16:07,530 Speaker 1: Like that was never a part of any of the. 266 00:16:09,710 --> 00:16:12,850 Speaker 2: Journalists talking about, like there was, I never even heard 267 00:16:12,890 --> 00:16:15,790 Speaker 2: of her before this, which I find unbelievable. 268 00:16:15,820 --> 00:16:16,620 Speaker 4: Yeah. 269 00:16:17,180 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 2: Considering how vital, she was a vital part of their 270 00:16:21,230 --> 00:16:24,430 Speaker 2: incarceration and the work that she does with the imprisoned women. 271 00:16:24,470 --> 00:16:26,510 Speaker 2: So can you talk a little bit about her and 272 00:16:26,650 --> 00:16:28,810 Speaker 2: your experience of her? 273 00:16:29,650 --> 00:16:32,350 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I know 274 00:16:32,370 --> 00:16:33,170 Speaker 3: she's around. 275 00:16:33,190 --> 00:16:36,270 Speaker 4: I don't know that much about her other than, yeah, 276 00:16:37,190 --> 00:16:42,700 Speaker 4: she was assigned to them in the beginning of their incarceration. 277 00:16:42,740 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 4: And while they were still there, in the spell of 278 00:16:47,300 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 4: what we know as those like iconic photographs and videos 279 00:16:50,220 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 4: of them walking to and from the court and like, 280 00:16:54,900 --> 00:16:56,950 Speaker 4: you know, all the people waiting for them in the 281 00:16:56,970 --> 00:17:01,550 Speaker 4: street and doing sort of almost like performance art roles 282 00:17:01,570 --> 00:17:05,929 Speaker 4: of like about Charlie. And, but what we do in 283 00:17:05,970 --> 00:17:07,780 Speaker 4: the script is, you know, what, what she did is 284 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,740 Speaker 4: she was feeding them a lot of feminist literature and 285 00:17:11,180 --> 00:17:13,540 Speaker 4: You know, Our Bodies, Our Cells, which was like so 286 00:17:14,060 --> 00:17:15,100 Speaker 4: iconic at that time. 287 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 3: Yes. 288 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was huge. 289 00:17:17,260 --> 00:17:20,060 Speaker 4: And, you know, really just trying to ask them what 290 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:27,220 Speaker 4: they thought, you know, trying to provoke their own critical thinking. 291 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,180 Speaker 4: And I think it must have been a huge challenge. 292 00:17:31,830 --> 00:17:37,210 Speaker 2: It was really powerful how you feel like she's starting 293 00:17:37,330 --> 00:17:40,710 Speaker 2: to get across to these people. young women you know 294 00:17:40,750 --> 00:17:43,740 Speaker 2: she's starting to maybe reach them and then the next 295 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 2: time you see them they've all shaved their heads and 296 00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:49,980 Speaker 2: are dressed and standing there going you know this is 297 00:17:50,020 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 2: what charlie wants us to do and it's just. 298 00:17:54,940 --> 00:17:57,020 Speaker 1: Devastating yeah totally. 299 00:17:57,340 --> 00:18:03,130 Speaker 2: And um she so susan atkins she expressed remorse during 300 00:18:03,150 --> 00:18:06,450 Speaker 2: um her imprisonment and as we said she died in 301 00:18:06,470 --> 00:18:10,899 Speaker 2: prison in 2009 Did learning about her later life change 302 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,570 Speaker 2: your understanding of the young woman that you were playing? 303 00:18:15,250 --> 00:18:18,410 Speaker 4: I feel like I tried to read as much about 304 00:18:18,470 --> 00:18:20,010 Speaker 4: all three of them as much as I could. And 305 00:18:20,030 --> 00:18:23,350 Speaker 4: it sort of felt to me, you know, like with 306 00:18:23,410 --> 00:18:26,430 Speaker 4: respect to their families and everything. But like it sort 307 00:18:26,450 --> 00:18:28,189 Speaker 4: of felt to me that like Sadie was kind of 308 00:18:28,260 --> 00:18:31,700 Speaker 4: the one where something was like kind of broken, you know, 309 00:18:31,740 --> 00:18:34,379 Speaker 4: like something. Yeah, I did. I, it's cause it just 310 00:18:34,420 --> 00:18:36,780 Speaker 4: felt to me, it's like swinging from one extreme to 311 00:18:36,820 --> 00:18:40,139 Speaker 4: the other of, of like, you know, the family and 312 00:18:40,180 --> 00:18:44,030 Speaker 4: then going so deep into like a really radical Christian part. 313 00:18:45,710 --> 00:18:48,950 Speaker 3: Right. To me, like she, I actually, I don't know. 314 00:18:49,250 --> 00:18:52,290 Speaker 4: You know, I just, I just felt like if, if 315 00:18:52,490 --> 00:18:56,660 Speaker 4: God was her new Charlie or, yeah, I mean, there's, 316 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 4: there's just, there, there's not the same interviews of her. 317 00:18:59,940 --> 00:19:02,869 Speaker 4: Like there are, Leslie and Patricia of them speaking as, 318 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 4: as older women. 319 00:19:04,060 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: Right. 320 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 4: Cause I find it so moving and I'm, and it's just, 321 00:19:08,020 --> 00:19:11,140 Speaker 4: it's just so heartbreaking that they're the longest serving women 322 00:19:11,180 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 4: in California history still. 323 00:19:13,300 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: Leslie was just released, right? 324 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. 325 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,590 Speaker 4: I remember like the possibility of her parole was coming 326 00:19:20,650 --> 00:19:22,970 Speaker 4: up as we were shooting again, you know, again. And 327 00:19:23,910 --> 00:19:27,670 Speaker 4: I know that like, it was difficult because I know 328 00:19:27,710 --> 00:19:30,990 Speaker 4: Mary and Guinevere also didn't want to like have an 329 00:19:31,030 --> 00:19:31,730 Speaker 4: effect on. 330 00:19:32,330 --> 00:19:35,570 Speaker 2: That right there's a i don't know if it's a 331 00:19:35,670 --> 00:19:39,460 Speaker 2: law or there's a very strong you know belief that 332 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 2: if you're if you're up for parole if there is 333 00:19:42,740 --> 00:19:45,330 Speaker 2: anything in in the news or something that you could 334 00:19:45,380 --> 00:19:49,530 Speaker 2: possibly be benefiting from or something that's storytelling or trying 335 00:19:49,570 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 2: to lean in one direction or another that the person 336 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 2: is a part of, it could really have a negative 337 00:19:55,380 --> 00:19:57,820 Speaker 2: impact on their release, I think. 338 00:19:57,859 --> 00:20:01,340 Speaker 1: And that's probably what they, you know, were concerned about. 339 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,310 Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we had to just keep remembering, like, 340 00:20:05,490 --> 00:20:09,250 Speaker 4: these are real people. They're still there, you know. But 341 00:20:09,330 --> 00:20:13,129 Speaker 4: to think, yeah, just to answer your question about younger Susan, 342 00:20:13,150 --> 00:20:16,669 Speaker 4: I just kept going back to like her need, you know, 343 00:20:16,710 --> 00:20:18,630 Speaker 4: her need to be loved, her need to belong. 344 00:20:19,170 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think that can be underestimated either 345 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,660 Speaker 2: as a, you know, it's one of the most basic 346 00:20:26,740 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 2: human needs, I think, you know, to. 347 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,980 Speaker 1: Feel that, to feel loved, to feel. 348 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 2: Community, to feel seen, like those things are so basic 349 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,270 Speaker 2: and if you're, if you don't have them or if you're, 350 00:20:41,950 --> 00:20:45,790 Speaker 2: you learn them in a very twisted way, you know, 351 00:20:45,890 --> 00:20:48,330 Speaker 2: there's bad things happen. 352 00:20:48,350 --> 00:20:49,250 Speaker 3: Yeah. 353 00:20:49,630 --> 00:20:51,990 Speaker 4: And I was also like, you know, trying to search 354 00:20:52,050 --> 00:20:55,030 Speaker 4: in myself of like, I wasn't a teenager when I 355 00:20:55,090 --> 00:20:57,590 Speaker 4: played it, but you know, I was pretty wild in 356 00:20:57,750 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 4: my teenage years and I, I definitely did things for the, 357 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 4: the thrill of them. And so I was trying to just, 358 00:21:07,290 --> 00:21:11,290 Speaker 4: see what she was doing without judgment. I mean, and, and, 359 00:21:11,790 --> 00:21:17,550 Speaker 4: and how she might've just done them without thinking, you know, or, 360 00:21:17,790 --> 00:21:20,050 Speaker 4: or done them because they didn't feel real. Like nothing 361 00:21:20,090 --> 00:21:22,890 Speaker 4: quite felt real. Everything was almost kind of like nothing 362 00:21:22,930 --> 00:21:25,670 Speaker 4: had consequences. I mean, I think that's part of the 363 00:21:25,850 --> 00:21:31,290 Speaker 4: sixties to the culture of, you know, counterculture, but also 364 00:21:32,170 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 4: with psychedelics where I think like what, what, what's so 365 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:40,149 Speaker 4: amazing is how, how spiritually like possibility becomes larger and 366 00:21:40,170 --> 00:21:43,030 Speaker 4: larger and larger. And I think like when you're just 367 00:21:43,210 --> 00:21:45,530 Speaker 4: in that space all the time, it's like, well, then 368 00:21:45,570 --> 00:21:48,780 Speaker 4: there's no consequence. Nothing is real, you know? And he 369 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,900 Speaker 4: was at a certain point preaching stuff like that. 370 00:21:52,020 --> 00:21:55,580 Speaker 2: Right. That life, there's no difference between life and death 371 00:21:56,060 --> 00:21:58,939 Speaker 2: and these kinds of, the same thing as, you know, 372 00:21:58,980 --> 00:22:04,350 Speaker 2: when your character says after he beats her up, you know, 373 00:22:04,390 --> 00:22:08,090 Speaker 2: there's no difference between being something I'm paraphrasing, but like 374 00:22:08,130 --> 00:22:10,830 Speaker 2: being beaten up by your man and making love to him. 375 00:22:10,869 --> 00:22:12,390 Speaker 1: That's the, there's no difference. 376 00:22:12,650 --> 00:22:15,580 Speaker 2: Like I'm getting what I need, which is just like 377 00:22:16,340 --> 00:22:19,140 Speaker 2: the most out of context is the most twisted and 378 00:22:19,300 --> 00:22:22,460 Speaker 2: backwards and wrong thing you could imagine. But then when 379 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,060 Speaker 2: you see it in the context of what she has 380 00:22:25,140 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 2: been through, you can understand it. And getting back to 381 00:22:29,540 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 2: that scene when you said, cause I think this was 382 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:35,179 Speaker 2: so powerful too, that, when you see the responses of 383 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,110 Speaker 2: the other women, when he does that at the table, 384 00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:42,750 Speaker 2: it very clearly shows, even though we have an audience 385 00:22:42,990 --> 00:22:46,570 Speaker 2: as an audience, haven't seen that before. It's very clear 386 00:22:46,609 --> 00:22:48,710 Speaker 2: that these women have seen this many times. 387 00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:49,540 Speaker 3: Yeah. 388 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 4: And you see on every character's face, you know exactly 389 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,899 Speaker 4: how they feel about it. I mean, even, you know, 390 00:22:56,380 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 4: like so see bacon who plays Patricia, like she's smiling 391 00:23:00,540 --> 00:23:03,490 Speaker 4: through the pain and, Right. But she's, she's just like, 392 00:23:03,890 --> 00:23:05,490 Speaker 4: she's trying to teach Leslie, like it's okay. 393 00:23:05,890 --> 00:23:07,150 Speaker 3: It's all this. It's fine. 394 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 4: And then you see like younger girls and they're used to, 395 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:11,260 Speaker 4: they look really scared. 396 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. That's one of the things I think why it's, 397 00:23:14,140 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 2: it was, it was so hard to watch as a 398 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,939 Speaker 2: woman because I, you, I could see all of the 399 00:23:20,020 --> 00:23:24,540 Speaker 2: things that we do in, in, in far lesser extreme circumstances. 400 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:24,810 Speaker 4: Right. 401 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,730 Speaker 1: But that thing of, Oh, you smile through it. It's okay. 402 00:23:28,990 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 2: Or, you know, your instinct says this doesn't feel right, 403 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,719 Speaker 2: but then you just say, okay, you know, or, or 404 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,810 Speaker 2: say what he wants to hear, you know, all those 405 00:23:39,070 --> 00:23:41,149 Speaker 2: little things that women do. 406 00:23:41,170 --> 00:23:44,230 Speaker 4: Freeze, fight, or fawn. Fawn is a big, it's a 407 00:23:44,270 --> 00:23:46,390 Speaker 4: big one that, yeah, we all know. 408 00:23:46,950 --> 00:23:47,170 Speaker 2: Right. 409 00:23:47,450 --> 00:23:48,820 Speaker 3: And freeze and fight. 410 00:23:48,970 --> 00:23:51,859 Speaker 4: But yeah, Sadie was definitely, she, she could fight. 411 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 412 00:23:53,660 --> 00:23:56,020 Speaker 2: What was maybe the hardest or what were some of 413 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 2: the hardest scenes to film for you? 414 00:23:58,570 --> 00:24:00,290 Speaker 3: Yeah. That the fight was tough. 415 00:24:00,310 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 4: Like we talked to physically, you know, the murders were really, 416 00:24:04,140 --> 00:24:11,820 Speaker 4: it was just really, really dark, really, really dark. And 417 00:24:11,900 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 4: some of the prison, cause it's just, we were, you know, 418 00:24:14,940 --> 00:24:17,530 Speaker 4: I had never spent, I mean, I'd never been in 419 00:24:17,570 --> 00:24:18,130 Speaker 4: a jail cell. 420 00:24:18,890 --> 00:24:19,150 Speaker 2: Right. 421 00:24:19,390 --> 00:24:23,489 Speaker 4: So I'm like experiencing and you're there for you're there 422 00:24:23,510 --> 00:24:27,130 Speaker 4: all day. And, and, and it's this, I mean, not 423 00:24:27,170 --> 00:24:29,690 Speaker 4: like it's anything close to what it actually is, but 424 00:24:29,730 --> 00:24:32,449 Speaker 4: it just puts into context where you're just like, oh, 425 00:24:32,510 --> 00:24:37,310 Speaker 4: I get to leave and go home. Or like, oh, wow, 426 00:24:37,490 --> 00:24:40,430 Speaker 4: this one's actually that small. And like, what do you, 427 00:24:40,609 --> 00:24:44,689 Speaker 4: you know, like the macrame that she would make, they 428 00:24:44,710 --> 00:24:48,330 Speaker 4: would sort of make while they, you know, a lot 429 00:24:48,369 --> 00:24:51,350 Speaker 4: of sewing, a lot of, you know, ways to sort 430 00:24:51,369 --> 00:24:55,389 Speaker 4: of occupy time. And realizing that like, yeah, these are 431 00:24:55,430 --> 00:25:00,430 Speaker 4: not spaces in which healing is made, you know, like 432 00:25:00,450 --> 00:25:05,570 Speaker 4: sort of moving about Carlene's work is like what she 433 00:25:05,590 --> 00:25:07,580 Speaker 4: was trying to do with so little. 434 00:25:07,970 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 2: Right. 435 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,380 Speaker 1: That's one of the things that I'm so impressed with 436 00:25:10,420 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 1: her with. 437 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,020 Speaker 2: I mean, a million things, but that alone, like so 438 00:25:13,140 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 2: little support, so little resources, so literal space, you know, 439 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,340 Speaker 2: in order to do these things. 440 00:25:20,980 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's so many more initiatives now and, you know, 441 00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 4: like working with incarcerated. 442 00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:28,940 Speaker 1: Right, right. 443 00:25:43,619 --> 00:25:47,310 Speaker 2: Getting back to shooting those scenes, the murder scenes, first 444 00:25:47,369 --> 00:25:48,660 Speaker 2: of all, Mary Herron, the. 445 00:25:50,460 --> 00:25:52,570 Speaker 1: She's such a wonderful director um. 446 00:25:52,790 --> 00:25:57,109 Speaker 2: And she had talked about that kind of the the 447 00:25:57,150 --> 00:26:03,570 Speaker 2: difference of making those almost very uh like procedural kind 448 00:26:03,650 --> 00:26:06,510 Speaker 2: of you know where there again no exploitation of it 449 00:26:06,609 --> 00:26:13,739 Speaker 2: but how and and yet showing like really show it's 450 00:26:13,859 --> 00:26:17,620 Speaker 2: quite uh not graphic in the violence, but in what you're, 451 00:26:17,820 --> 00:26:21,660 Speaker 2: what you're feeling and the, the blood spattering and splattering 452 00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:24,979 Speaker 2: and all of that stuff. And Grace Van Dean who 453 00:26:25,020 --> 00:26:28,530 Speaker 2: plays Sharon Tate, you know, is just so wide eyed. 454 00:26:28,609 --> 00:26:32,030 Speaker 1: And so, you know, it's, it's horrible. 455 00:26:32,090 --> 00:26:34,330 Speaker 2: But so what, can you talk a little bit about 456 00:26:34,810 --> 00:26:37,290 Speaker 2: shooting those scenes and what that was like? 457 00:26:39,890 --> 00:26:44,379 Speaker 4: I remember Grace really, she was like really wild. warm 458 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,379 Speaker 4: warmed up and i mean like we were about to 459 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 4: roll and she just got herself into a place that 460 00:26:51,420 --> 00:26:55,060 Speaker 4: uh was just really really difficult to watch but so 461 00:26:55,100 --> 00:27:00,290 Speaker 4: that you know she yeah she really did the work 462 00:27:01,350 --> 00:27:04,810 Speaker 4: and then with hannah i watched on the monitor like 463 00:27:04,850 --> 00:27:07,109 Speaker 4: that that one shot i think you're talking about with 464 00:27:07,150 --> 00:27:10,210 Speaker 4: the blood spider yeah um where it's just like the 465 00:27:10,250 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 4: real close-up of her and to plug her book for 466 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,340 Speaker 4: a second, the make-believe she, she wrote about filming that, 467 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,740 Speaker 4: which I, cause I didn't know what she was going through. 468 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 4: Like while we shooting, um, it's a really wonderful book 469 00:27:24,300 --> 00:27:27,689 Speaker 4: about her own experience with psychosis and, and like going 470 00:27:28,250 --> 00:27:30,550 Speaker 4: to shoot, like being in a cult herself and then 471 00:27:30,590 --> 00:27:31,250 Speaker 4: like shooting. 472 00:27:31,070 --> 00:27:34,430 Speaker 3: About a cult. But then, but she writes about that specific. 473 00:27:34,070 --> 00:27:37,409 Speaker 4: Night and it was interesting to read having watched her 474 00:27:37,450 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 4: on the monitor because she didn't talk about it with Mary. They, 475 00:27:41,460 --> 00:27:44,750 Speaker 4: she didn't, planet she didn't i think she stayed up 476 00:27:44,890 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 4: the night before because she really just wanted to experience 477 00:27:48,900 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 4: um that kind of adrenaline and i think someone said 478 00:27:54,540 --> 00:27:56,459 Speaker 4: something i don't remember if it was on set or 479 00:27:56,500 --> 00:27:58,380 Speaker 4: like or this was in her book but i'm just 480 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,700 Speaker 4: remembering like a sentence about like you know having the 481 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,330 Speaker 4: physical experience of you're like you know when you're stabbing 482 00:28:07,410 --> 00:28:09,229 Speaker 4: someone they're like the way you you're like you hit 483 00:28:09,270 --> 00:28:11,770 Speaker 4: a bone you know like there's something like Like as 484 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,810 Speaker 4: specific as that and how just like even like viscerally 485 00:28:14,850 --> 00:28:23,450 Speaker 4: hearing that, it's horrifying. Yeah, it was really disturbing watching 486 00:28:23,690 --> 00:28:27,389 Speaker 4: on the monitor. You also never, it's kind of the 487 00:28:27,470 --> 00:28:29,790 Speaker 4: only point in the film you kind of see her. 488 00:28:29,910 --> 00:28:34,230 Speaker 4: She's such a quiet character and she just starts like 489 00:28:34,369 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 4: screaming in the shot. And it's sort of like, it's 490 00:28:40,820 --> 00:28:43,420 Speaker 4: sort of like seeing someone become a different person. 491 00:28:44,370 --> 00:28:46,530 Speaker 2: Right. Right. Right. 492 00:28:46,790 --> 00:28:50,450 Speaker 1: Like the full transformation, that moment. 493 00:28:51,270 --> 00:28:51,510 Speaker 4: Yeah. 494 00:28:51,590 --> 00:28:54,090 Speaker 2: And she, I didn't, I didn't know this either until 495 00:28:54,130 --> 00:28:55,630 Speaker 2: I knew I was going to talk with you and 496 00:28:55,670 --> 00:28:58,410 Speaker 2: I did a little more research and I, I didn't 497 00:28:58,470 --> 00:29:02,820 Speaker 2: know that Hannah had what she had been through either. 498 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 2: I can't even imagine making this movie while she, going 499 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 2: through that i don't i mean i don't even know 500 00:29:10,740 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 2: how you do. 501 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 4: That yeah yeah she did and then she wrote so 502 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 4: beautifully about it in hindsight yeah i really enjoyed. 503 00:29:19,260 --> 00:29:24,090 Speaker 2: Her book yeah i'm i will read it so what 504 00:29:24,110 --> 00:29:27,930 Speaker 2: do you think charlie says reveals about these women that 505 00:29:28,450 --> 00:29:32,870 Speaker 2: audiences might not understand from the more kind of conventional 506 00:29:33,070 --> 00:29:36,030 Speaker 2: accounts of charles manson and the murders. 507 00:29:36,670 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 3: I mean, it's interesting. 508 00:29:37,420 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 4: Like I still see so much content about Charlie. and 509 00:29:40,220 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 4: the girls and like, you know, like all these thriller 510 00:29:43,220 --> 00:29:47,460 Speaker 4: docs and on my TV and, you know, my husband 511 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 4: and I will like, it just feels like we always 512 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,900 Speaker 4: come and we're like, wow, they're still there. 513 00:29:51,850 --> 00:29:52,970 Speaker 3: Telling the story, huh? 514 00:29:53,210 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 4: And are like poking at it and carving at it. 515 00:29:56,610 --> 00:30:01,590 Speaker 4: And yeah, what I think, I mean, I just think 516 00:30:02,130 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 4: Mary and Guinevere really set out to do something different 517 00:30:06,500 --> 00:30:10,020 Speaker 4: and they were so successful in trying to. 518 00:30:11,460 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 3: Paint the picture of these young women. 519 00:30:15,700 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 4: And how they got from A to B and how 520 00:30:19,180 --> 00:30:22,670 Speaker 4: they became the most, you know, infamous people in California 521 00:30:23,650 --> 00:30:28,530 Speaker 4: and how it was, it was from such a quotidian thing. 522 00:30:28,810 --> 00:30:31,650 Speaker 4: You know, it wasn't like they, and that's, what's so 523 00:30:32,090 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 4: frustrating about, you know, even reading Helter Skelter. It's like, 524 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 4: it's this sort of like, and don't. 525 00:30:39,740 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 3: Get me wrong. Like I love true crime. I love 526 00:30:42,060 --> 00:30:45,780 Speaker 3: true crime. I love true crime podcasts. I love, I love, 527 00:30:46,180 --> 00:30:47,380 Speaker 3: you know, spooky. 528 00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:51,260 Speaker 4: Stuff, but I think in this instance, like it's just 529 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 4: a different perspective about these, these people are real people, 530 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 4: you know, not saying they're victims necessarily, but like they're 531 00:31:03,090 --> 00:31:07,850 Speaker 4: people that made mistakes and, you know, there are real 532 00:31:08,370 --> 00:31:11,530 Speaker 4: victims from all of it happening that are still in pain. 533 00:31:12,430 --> 00:31:15,430 Speaker 4: And that like, yeah, of course there, I don't think 534 00:31:15,510 --> 00:31:21,890 Speaker 4: Mary herself identifies as a feminist, but, I think it's 535 00:31:21,930 --> 00:31:30,350 Speaker 4: definitely centering women's stories and the coercion and the power 536 00:31:30,370 --> 00:31:37,700 Speaker 4: imbalance of an older, very charismatic man. And that's such 537 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,980 Speaker 4: a universal story, like time and again, no matter if 538 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 4: you're in, you know, 69 or 26. 539 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:43,380 Speaker 3: Right, right. 540 00:31:43,540 --> 00:31:44,770 Speaker 4: And I really.... 541 00:31:48,810 --> 00:31:53,390 Speaker 2: Whenever a project like this is made, I'm thinking of 542 00:31:53,530 --> 00:31:55,210 Speaker 2: one or two other movies because there are a lot, 543 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,980 Speaker 2: where the women are at the center of it, of 544 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,780 Speaker 2: something that we know the story sort of already or 545 00:32:02,940 --> 00:32:06,340 Speaker 2: think we do. And then you're so struck by, oh 546 00:32:07,850 --> 00:32:12,890 Speaker 2: my gosh, no one ever talks about this. Again, saying, 547 00:32:12,910 --> 00:32:15,230 Speaker 2: I can't believe that I didn't know who Carlene Faith was. 548 00:32:15,290 --> 00:32:18,150 Speaker 2: I I didn't even know this person existed or that 549 00:32:18,190 --> 00:32:20,730 Speaker 2: these women had this. The only images that I had 550 00:32:20,790 --> 00:32:24,070 Speaker 2: were these women with their shaved heads and they're singing 551 00:32:24,130 --> 00:32:30,990 Speaker 2: their songs without any context or any real explanation. I 552 00:32:31,730 --> 00:32:36,170 Speaker 2: so appreciate that about this movie. I am very interested 553 00:32:36,190 --> 00:32:39,110 Speaker 2: in why people do the things they do and how 554 00:32:39,130 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 2: we get there and how valuable it is to have 555 00:32:44,860 --> 00:32:47,980 Speaker 2: this medium to be able to tell these things through 556 00:32:48,060 --> 00:32:53,230 Speaker 2: narrative because sometimes that's how we can actually empathize or 557 00:32:53,270 --> 00:32:56,410 Speaker 2: how we can come to understand something, um, in a 558 00:32:56,450 --> 00:32:59,330 Speaker 2: different way. So I, I just think it's really good. And, 559 00:32:59,630 --> 00:33:02,030 Speaker 2: and you're so good in this movie and there's something 560 00:33:02,090 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 2: that's so like just raw and authentic about everyone in it. 561 00:33:07,740 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: And, and that is no small task. Like I know 562 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,750 Speaker 1: how hard that is to, to do on a set, um, 563 00:33:14,370 --> 00:33:15,229 Speaker 1: It's not easy. 564 00:33:15,490 --> 00:33:16,990 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for saying that. 565 00:33:17,090 --> 00:33:17,290 Speaker 2: Yeah. 566 00:33:17,770 --> 00:33:21,410 Speaker 4: It's, it's one of the, one of the things I've, 567 00:33:21,650 --> 00:33:23,350 Speaker 4: I've been most proud of working. 568 00:33:23,390 --> 00:33:23,690 Speaker 1: Yeah. 569 00:33:24,210 --> 00:33:24,410 Speaker 2: Yeah. 570 00:33:24,650 --> 00:33:27,800 Speaker 4: It taught me a lot too, because I was telling 571 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 4: a friend today that she's playing a character who doesn't 572 00:33:31,180 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 4: say very much. 573 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,380 Speaker 3: And there's so many scenes that Susan doesn't talk. 574 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 4: And I loved, I loved that so much permission and 575 00:33:40,460 --> 00:33:43,100 Speaker 4: so much freedom to have sort of this like internal connection. 576 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 3: Internal world and internal dialogue. 577 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,300 Speaker 4: And I find myself when I watch movies, like looking 578 00:33:48,340 --> 00:33:51,300 Speaker 4: at the people who aren't talking because there's so much 579 00:33:51,860 --> 00:33:52,660 Speaker 4: creativity there. 580 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,380 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 581 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,630 Speaker 4: It was, it was a real honor, but thank you. 582 00:34:00,310 --> 00:34:00,630 Speaker 1: Yeah. 583 00:34:00,870 --> 00:34:03,210 Speaker 2: Well, I've so loved talking with you. 584 00:34:03,290 --> 00:34:04,550 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 585 00:34:04,570 --> 00:34:08,970 Speaker 2: You have such a lovely way about you. That's just great. 586 00:34:09,210 --> 00:34:12,390 Speaker 2: And so, I really appreciate your time. The movie is 587 00:34:12,430 --> 00:34:17,430 Speaker 2: called Charlie Says. It is streaming online. I highly recommend it. 588 00:34:17,770 --> 00:34:19,030 Speaker 2: And Marianne, thank. 589 00:34:18,870 --> 00:34:19,470 Speaker 1: You so much. 590 00:34:19,489 --> 00:34:21,890 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. It's so nice to hang out 591 00:34:21,910 --> 00:34:22,850 Speaker 3: with you. You're an icon. 592 00:34:23,790 --> 00:34:27,049 Speaker 1: Oh, you're so nice. Thank you.