WEBVTT - The Bastard Manifesto 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:07.360 M hmm. What's Dick and Matador's. I'm Robert Evans hosted 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:11.360 Behind the Bastards and that is the intro. People requested 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:13.400 that intro, Sophie, I don't need to hear your guff 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:21.800 about it. I do want, you know, people's feedback, but 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:26.079 I don't need guff. Okay, this is a noun. I 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:29.480 don't agree with that. Alright, Well something was Inductor ZUFI. 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:33.960 I think that was, by the standards of my recent introductions, 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:36.320 one of the best ones I've done. I just don't 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:43.800 like Crimes against Potatoes. Well that's actually totally fair. Um, 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:49.200 but that introduction, uh does tie in, yeah, slightly with 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:54.520 with today's episode. Uh so you know, first off, Jamie Loftus, 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:57.320 you are our guest today. How you doing? Jamie co 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:01.800 hosted the Bechel Cast the the creative mind behind Boss 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.480 Whom Is Girl? Which is going to be in Edinburgh 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:07.560 probably by the time this episode drops. The most entertaining 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.560 show I've been to in like the last ten years. 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:14.160 Fly to Edinburgh. I've several times, and if you listen 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:18.080 to this years later and Jamie Loftus is not in Edinburgh, 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:21.080 fly to Edinburgh and demand that they take her back, 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:27.280 Like what happened there? Yeah, there's yeah, yeah yeah, force 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:30.280 it upon the town fathers of Edinburgh. I mean really 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:35.119 optimistic for you to even mention as a possibility as 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:40.040 a time period that will exist. Yeah. Well I'm an optimist. 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:44.280 I'm not I'm not well, I don't know, I'm a 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:48.440 I'm a mix of both, I guess. So today, normally 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:49.800 this is a show where I talk about the very 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:51.720 worst people in all of history. But today we're doing 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:54.680 something a little bit different. We are getting very much 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:58.000 behind the bastards because we're going into some prehistory about 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:02.000 where authoritarianism comes from, where fascism comes from, how it 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:04.240 might be kind of programmed into our brains to an 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:08.160 extent um. This is kind of a weird one, and 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:12.320 it's based on you know, I read about primarily dictators 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:16.280 and terrible unethical political leaders and corporate leaders, people who 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:21.000 abuse power, uh, basically as a more than full time job, 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.200 and having done that for a year and change, you 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:28.359 start to have some ideas about the nature of power 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:32.320 and the nature of authoritarianism and the possibilities of the 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:37.440 human race and stuff. Um, So this is like, uh, 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:40.040 it's not a half asked but it's maybe three quarters 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:42.600 of an asked attempt at me putting some of that 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:46.960 together and explaining some of the conclusions I've drawn, uh 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:51.160 from all of this research, and uh it's not ready 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:54.520 for public consumption, but I'm gonna put it out there 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:56.840 anyway because I'm a hack and a fraud. So that's 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:59.600 where we are. I've got Sophie and Jamie in the 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.480 room to tear me down if if what I'm saying 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:05.920 some nonsense, and Anderson and Anderson, this would be really 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:09.480 fun if your conclusions were actually I was being kind 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:14.119 of dramatic before power is actually really good and I'm 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:17.320 going to work for cook Industries. Bye bye. This this 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:22.440 ends on a on a pro Saddam Hussein rant, Robert 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:32.359 you know what, leave Yeah, I've become a Stalinist. Yeah, 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:34.480 oh god, I just want to hear you refer to 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:39.119 yourself as a bit of a drama queen. Turns out 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.000 this year I've just been a bit of a drama 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:43.320 queen and things are actually fine. He's like, I've just 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:47.440 been binging Mary Kay and Nashley. You know, that's my 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:51.200 new life. As I learned from Mary Kay and Ashley, 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:55.280 Everything's fine as long as you as long as you 0:03:55.400 --> 0:04:00.320 light to your wait, Mary Kay, I was too busy 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:03.800 trying to remember exactly what had happened in uh in 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.360 that movie where they trick their parents into both getting 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:08.480 on a cruise ship with them to make their divorced 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.680 mom and dad get back together. Buddy gun one, isn't 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:15.000 that one? That that is? Isn't that uh parent trap? 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:21.240 Parent trap? Yeah? Not Mary Kane? Actually not actually twins, 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:25.680 that's double Lindsay Lohan. Yeah, and as I miss, wait, 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:27.960 was that Lindsay lohunt? That wasn't even Mary Kay? And Nactually, 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:31.320 goddamn it. I know I think about the such a 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:36.520 that I tried to mention Ariana Grande in casual conversation 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:40.720 last year, and you waited maybe a full ten seconds 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:44.520 by being like, I don't know who you're talking. I 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:46.520 actually bring that up thinking about it once a week. 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:49.080 I bring it up constantly with salespeople when they asked 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:53.080 me why Robert can't pronounce normal words, and I give 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:56.640 them the explanation that he can pronounce some crazy Russian 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:01.840 ship but cannot pronounce Ariana Grande. See this is frustrating 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:04.080 because I feel like if you, if you add up 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:06.640 the number of words that I read every week on 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:11.080 this show, I have above a pronunciation rate. Someone crunched 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:14.160 those numbers. Yeah, I mean we're talking about ten thousand 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:16.359 ish words a week. You know, you get a couple 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:26.320 wrong mistakes are made, but usually the words are like tree, 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:30.200 t look we I love tries and I pronounced them route. 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:34.560 Why did you let us come on the show together? 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:36.960 We're not going to get anything done. I needed I 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:40.719 needed some ship talking of my my, my philosophizing here, 0:05:40.760 --> 0:05:43.080 because if I'm going to do an episode where I 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:46.680 unload of a half baked philosophy, somebody should be there 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:49.040 to like point out when I've made a huge logical 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:53.599 error or pronounce a name wrong. Okay, this actually will 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:56.240 tie in with something we talked about later in the episode. 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:58.840 I didn't plan that ahead of time, but it totally does. 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:02.280 And I'm very proud of myself of now. So let's 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:06.320 get into it. In nineteen eighty nine, Francis fuku Yama, 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.320 a political scientist and author, wrote an essay titled the 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:12.320 End of History Looking forward just a little bit. He 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:14.320 was able to see the fall of the Soviet Union 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:16.919 was on the very near horizon. To fuku Yama and 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:19.000 too many. At the dawn of the nineteen nineties, it 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:22.159 looked as if a new epoch in human society was dawning, 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:25.279 one in which the great historical shifts between empires and 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:27.920 modes of government that had persisted for EON's would cease, 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:33.799 because mankind had clearly arrived at the perfect system, liberal democracy. 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:38.520 So that's Fukuyama's thinking in like nineteen eighty nine. Now 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.080 he turned his essay into a book in nineteen ninety two, 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:43.359 after the fall of the USSR, when he looked like 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:46.800 he basically read the future UH in the end of history. 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:49.720 He wrote that humanity was witnessing quote not just the 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:52.640 passing of a particular period of post war history, but 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.080 the end of history is such that is the endpoint 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:59.719 of mankind's ideological evolution, and the universalization of Western liberal 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:03.200 demonocracy is the final form of human government. So a 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:06.680 bit of a bold claim to make UH and a 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:08.720 little less than thirty years later, in the Year of 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:12.559 Our Lord twenty nineteen, fuki Yama's theories have not aged well. 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:15.920 Rather than living at the end of history, we now 0:07:15.920 --> 0:07:18.160 seem to be living through a period where these once 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:21.680 in vulnerable liberal democracies are dropping faster than fat beats 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:26.560 at a warehouse. Rave. Thank you, thank you for that, Jamie. 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:32.880 That's proud of that one. Under Victor Orban, Hungary has 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:36.679 transitioned to what he calls an illiberal democracy. Under tap 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:40.840 resign uh, Turkey has moved very close to an outright dictatorship. 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:44.160 The elections of JayR. Bolsonaro in Brazil and Rodrigo du 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:47.480 Terte in the Philippines hardly bode any better, But the 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.080 situation is actually even worse than it looks. Based on 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:53.880 all that, researchers with a German institute, Bertelsman stiff Tong 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:56.880 published a study back in March of two eighteen that 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:00.640 analyzed the quality of democracy, the market, economy, and leadership 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:03.640 of some hundred and twenty nine nations. They use this 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.760 to put together what they called a transformation Index that 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:11.160 roughly analyze the overall levels of freedom, authoritarianism, and inequality 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:14.840 in those societies. They found that roughly one billion more 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:19.920 people live under dictatorships now than did fifteen years ago. Wow, 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:22.760 that's insane. Yeah, it's not a great statistic. I don't 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:26.240 like that. M hmm. That's all I have to say 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:29.360 about it. That's my only comment. Not into it. Okay, Sophie, 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:34.680 not a dictatorship fan, bold stance to take considering honestly, 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:37.520 brave of you. I mean we can add to that 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:41.400 because I feel like our relationship Robert is a dictatorship 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:46.400 and I am that dictator. Yes, in which direction nothing 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:50.480 would surprise me. And like Stalin, you regularly throw oranges 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:53.280 at me and make me watch Cowboy movies while you drink. 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:58.160 I've seen it. Yeah, absolutely, I hate to see it 0:08:58.200 --> 0:08:59.920 and I see it. Yeah, but you are I mean 0:09:00.000 --> 0:09:01.680 that you are my son, and I accept you for 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:04.760 who you are. Yeah, except for when I don't want 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:09.480 to watch Cowboy movies. Yeah, not acceptable. Then that's not acceptable. 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:14.360 So uh yeah. So these guys look into the number 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.480 of people living in dictatorships and how that's changed, and 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:18.280 they find out that there's a billion more people living 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:21.160 under such regimes now than we're fifteen years ago. I've 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:22.960 had a write up of this study in the Local, 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:26.520 which is a German newspaper. Quote. Well, the researchers concluded 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:28.640 that the number of people living in democracies rose from 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.040 four billion to four point two billion between two thousand 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.280 and three and two thousand seventeen. They also found that 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:36.319 three point three billion people lived under dictatorship last year 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:39.160 compared to two point three billion in two thousand three. 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.079 So the trends aren't good. Uh. It is said that 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:46.200 the number of countries classified as having exemplary standards of 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:48.439 free and fair elections had dropped from one in six 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:51.080 and two thousand six to one in fourteen last year. 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:53.560 And while seventeen of the hundred and twenty nine countries 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.280 were considered to have completely unrestricted freedom of press and 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:58.600 opinion in two thousand six, that was the case for 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:02.760 just ten countries last year. Okay, so we're not We're 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:06.000 not on a great trend line if you you want 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:09.959 to look at history that way. Um. Now, in every 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:12.360 era there are philosophers whose purpose seems to be to 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:14.200 reinforce in the minds of the great and good that 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:16.560 whatever systems put them in their lofty place are right 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:25.920 and decent and perfect. What would you, Francis fuki Yama 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:28.040 was that man cheering the victors of the Cold War 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:31.000 on and assuring them that their world order would persist 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:33.719 for all time, And now that mankind seems to be 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:37.200 sinking into a darker and more authoritarian era. A new 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:40.640 philosopher has arrived to praise the righteousness of this shift. 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:45.560 His name is Dr Jordan Peterson. Stand about, I was 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:48.559 having a perfectly lovely conversation. Yeah, we were having a 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:50.720 conversation while you were talking, and then I got the 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:54.199 Jordan Peterson momo and I had just had a sharp pain. 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:56.800 But before we get into that sharp pain, what would 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.080 all what would what would you sell the Lofty Place? 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:01.480 What would you sell at the Lofty Place with a 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:04.040 whole sorts of ship? I mean it would be and 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:06.680 also none of it would be It would be I 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:09.920 think probably a front for something else. Like it would 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:12.080 be mostly I don't even know. I'm not I'm not 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:16.120 a very good consumerwards, So yeah, it would be a 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:18.840 shop for Okay, no, it's just supposed to be a shop, 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:22.720 but it's actually a trap. Um so i'll, you know, 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:29.240 like lure in like sword guys and capture Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah, exactly, 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.560 like guys who own swords. And then it's really kind 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:35.199 of like a re education kind of thing, and the 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:38.160 doors snap and then I teach the sword guys a 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:40.160 thing or two about a thing or two, and then 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:43.840 they leave mentally healthier. I can respect that. Back to 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:47.040 Jordan Peterson, well, I mean speaking of sword guys, he 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:49.920 kind of ties in there. But he also ties into 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:53.120 authoritarianism because in his best selling book Twelve Rules for 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.280 Life and Antidote to Chaos, Dr Peterson argues that strict 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:59.720 hierarchies are natural and healthy, at least to some extent, 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:02.520 according to a write up in the conversation quote. To 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:05.360 prove his point, Peterson uses the example of lobsters, which 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:09.120 humans share a common evolutionary ancestor with. Peterson argues that, 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:11.920 like humans, lobsters exist in hierarchies and have a nervous 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:15.200 system attuned to status, which runs on serotonin, a brain 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:18.360 chemical often associated with feelings of happiness. But higher up 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:21.160 a hierarchy of lobster climbs, This brain mechanism helps to 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:23.760 make more serotonin available. The more defeat it suffers, the 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:26.920 more restricted the serotonin supply. Lower serotonin is in turn 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:30.200 associated with more negative emotions, perhaps making it harder to 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:33.040 climb back up the ladder. According to Peterson, hierarchies and 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:36.000 humans work in a similar way. We are wired to 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:40.120 live in them. So that's Dr Peterson, And as much 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.040 as I might personally find him frustrating a disagreeable. He's 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:46.160 not the only person making arguments like this, do we 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:50.160 have a sea? Do we have a second source? I 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:55.000 just don't like his We've got other sources and and yeah, 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:58.800 unfortunately we have other sources. Uh. There's a distressing amount 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.640 of data that reinforces the idea that strict hierarchy may 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:04.880 be more natural to humankind than the egalitarian future those 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:06.760 of us who grew up watching Star Trek the next 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:10.440 generation might prefer. In two thousand eight, a scientific study 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:12.920 on a hierarchy and the human brains started making the rounds. 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.479 Online websites like PBS News Hour summarize it with headlines 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:19.800 like this, social status is hardwired into the brain, study 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:23.120 shows The research this article and others like it discussed 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:25.520 was based on a study conducted by the National Institute 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:27.840 of Mental Health using an FMR I to measure the 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:30.600 brain activity of seventy two people playing a computer game 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:33.319 with financial rewards on the line. According to the press 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.760 release quote, there were assigned a status that they were 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.120 told was based on their playing skill. In fact, the 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:41.079 game outcomes were predetermined by the other players simulated by 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.680 computer participants intermittently saw pictures and scores of an inferior 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.480 and a superior player they thought were simultaneously playing in 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:50.440 other rooms. Although they knew the perceived players scores would 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:53.120 not affect their own outcomes a reward, and were instructed 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.360 to ignore them. Participants brain activity and behavior were highly 0:13:56.360 --> 0:14:00.520 influenced by their position in the implied hierarchy. Now I 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:03.200 found a more detailed breakdown of that study by an 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:07.520 actual scientist, Dr. Kabiz Kamrani, writing on anthropology dot net, 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:11.360 and he notes quote Overall, this observation implies that social 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:14.160 status is highly valued in our subconscious minds, even as 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:16.560 much as money. The press is gorging itself on the 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:18.760 sound bite they just love it when something is complex 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:21.200 as social hierarchy and brain functions are reduced to something 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:25.080 as simple as gaining money. Another interesting observation involved subjects 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:27.760 that were presented a superior competitor in the game. When 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:30.520 that happened at triggered activity in quote, an area near 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:32.640 the front of the brain that appears to size people up, 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:36.360 making interpersonal judgments and assessing social status. A circuit involving 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:38.720 the midfront part of the brain that processes the intentions 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.680 and most motives of others and emotion processing areas deep 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:45.040 in the brain activated when the hierarchy became unstable, allowing 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:48.840 for upward and downward nobility. That it is the prefrontal 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:55.080 cortex is the judge bitch cortex. Y Dr Camrani goes 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:57.720 on to write, these results kind of thwart any utopian 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:01.400 anarchists out there. This data shows that are hierarchical consciousness 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:03.480 seems to be ingrained in the human brains so much 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:06.320 so that there are distinct circuits activated by concerns over 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.920 social rank. So like, so like, what what kind of 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:13.720 a study is this? Like did he how many? It's 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:15.600 an f M r I studies. So they're doing these 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:17.720 sort of things to try to make put people in 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:21.600 situations where they would be specifically like maybe lad to 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.680 think about their rank in a hierarchy, and they're also 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:28.240 measuring their brains at the same time, and they're finding that, like, 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:31.640 because of the way that people's brains react in these studies, 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:35.240 it suggests that parts of our brain are hardwired um 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:39.640 to view ourselves in part of a social hierarchy, as 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.840 opposed to like human beings inherently being egalitarian and social 0:15:43.920 --> 0:15:47.360 hierarchy being something that's falsely imposed on us from outside, 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:53.320 Like the structure of our brain, uh, seems to reinforce hierarchy. 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:56.320 And do we know is there like are we pulling 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.840 from like a wide group of yeah, a sample, yeah, 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.960 not samples. This is this is just one study, um, 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:05.520 but there are other studies that have found similar things 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:09.040 that its specific study does, say the sample size of 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:11.440 the group that he did. Yeah, this one's I think 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.440 a seventy two persons study, this most recent one here. Um. 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:17.360 But there's like this is this is like sort of 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:20.960 emblematic of one sort of strain of research, and there's 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:23.880 a couple of other studies in it that talk about, um, 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.480 hierarchy and stuff. So it's not I'm not trying to 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.640 present this as like the end all be all, but 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:34.280 it is kind of a bummer to read stuff like that, um, 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.239 because it, Yeah, it would seem to push the conclusion 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:40.160 that we are to some extent, at least irrevocably chain 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.760 to hierarchy, to systems of inequality, uh and in other words, 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.800 to a world dominated by bastards. And while that would 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:49.320 mean eternal job security for Sophie and I, it's not 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:51.520 a worry that a world that I want to live 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:54.760 in particularly, so I dug a little bit deeper with 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.760 a little bit of desperation to it. Um, And I 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.480 found evidence to suggest that our primate ants sestors, or 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:02.640 at least many of our primate ancestors, would have been 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:06.400 beings with strict social hierarchies. Scientists think this is plausible 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:08.800 because many of our modern ape and monkey relatives show 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:12.439 evidence of this too. Gibbons are strictly monogamous, Chimpanzees have 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:16.639 elaborate sexual hierarchies, Silverback guerrillas don't exactly work out their 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:20.760 differences in mutual self criticism sessions. UM. I'm trying not 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:23.520 to be too absolutist with anything here, but I think 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:25.880 it's it's fair to say, based on a lot of 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.080 anthropological research, that many of the pre human primates we 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:32.159 descended from would have behaved in similar ways, which is 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:34.600 probably why we have brains that are to some extent 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:40.920 hardwired for hierarchy. UM. Now, this gets more complicated when 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:43.639 you also slot in the fact that an increasing body 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:47.320 of anthropological research suggests that many of our hunter gatherer 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:51.439 ancestors would have lived in egalitarian communities. Which is the 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:55.359 conclusion that scientists increasingly make as they study ancient man 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.959 and modern hunter gatherers, who sort of are seen as 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:02.200 kind of a stand in for our ancestors. Um. Which 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.800 kind of suggests that tens of thousands of years in 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:09.919 our past, at some point, you know, we sort of 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:13.600 evolved with this this like structures in our brain that 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.480 kind of function the same way as like an addiction 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:19.040 to hierarchy, and at some point in our past we 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:21.639 got over it for a period of like thousands and 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:26.800 thousands and thousands of years. UM. So yeah, that's interesting 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:29.960 to me. Now. In two thousan twelve researchers writing for 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.000 the Journal of Human Nature published the results of a 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:34.760 study into a sample of fifty three human societies in 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:39.280 which polyandrous unions were common. Um, I see where we're 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:43.199 going here, Robert. I don't know. This is just a 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:48.359 little bit but not for the most part, nack is 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:51.080 just just a little bit, just a little bit rounded 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:56.040 your lifestyle. I can't believe this. Now we demonstrate that 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:58.399 although polyandry is rare, it is not as rare as 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:00.879 commonly believed as found worldwide it and is in most 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:04.639 common in egalitarian societies. We also argue that polyandry likely 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:08.600 existed during yeah early human history and should be examined 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:11.880 from an evolutionary perspective. Our analysis reveals that it may 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:15.320 be a predictable response. Okay, here's the thing. It's a 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:19.840 predictable response to a high operational sex ratio favoring males, 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:21.600 and may also be a response to high rates of 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:29.280 male mortality and possibly male absenteees. Longer makes sense. No, no, no, no, 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:32.600 that's not what it is. Because men in ancient societies 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:35.240 would have died so often, it didn't make sense for 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:37.440 people to be strictly monogamous. So you should if you're 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:39.400 going to have men dying at a high rate because 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.280 they're out hunting stuff. It makes sense if everyone in 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:44.440 the tribe raises all of the kids, and if people 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:47.879 don't have strong bonds of monogamy. That's what they're saying. Um, 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.320 ancient people weren't polyandrous because they were making an ethical 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:54.080 choice about it being more ethical than monogamy. It's just 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:55.960 if there's a hundred and fifty of you and your 0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:58.800 tribe and people are dropping all the time because they're 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:01.960 out fucking hunting wool and ship it doesn't make sense 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:06.080 to like have oh his her husband died, so now 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:08.440 her kids don't get food. Like, that's not a great 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:10.280 way to if there's not that many of you, you 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:12.640 just can't live that way. You gotta stay hornies, stay 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:16.840 frothy all the time. Yeah, Or it's it's more that like, uh, 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:19.520 Like one of the things that's really common in particularly 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:23.000 a lot of Latin American tribal societies is they have 0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:26.360 these beliefs about sperm that once a woman gets pregnant, 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:29.359 every guy she has sex with after the pregnancy has 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:33.200 started contribute sperm that helps build the child. And so 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:37.040 kids have multiple fathers in the tribe and that means 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:38.639 that like if two or three of them die, you 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:40.520 still got three or four dads, and like they're all 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:43.919 responsible for teaching the kids certain things, which is a 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.560 really logical way to have a society if there's if 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:49.800 you're a hunter gatherer tribe, it makes sense logic. I've 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:54.280 never found more daddies to be I don't need there 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:56.560 to be like girls that have or boys that have 0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:59.760 like more than one dad daddy, unless we're talking about 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:04.880 sugar daddy culture, in which case you do you Yeah, well, 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:07.760 I think you guys and your reaction when I started 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:10.919 talking about polyandry does make sense to me because like 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.800 I'm I'm polyamorous, and I'm I'm familiar with a lot 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:16.240 of frustrating people in that community who will make claims 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:19.080 that like, oh, it's more natural. Um, it's more ethical 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:21.159 because our ancestors did it, And it's important to not 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:23.879 that Like, No, our ancestors, to the extent that they 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:27.000 were polyandrous, didn't do it for ethical reasons. They did 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.280 it because it was like made logical sense for the 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:33.960 world that they lived in. Yeah, it's it's when it's 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:36.400 just something to tweet about. I love when I see 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:40.200 my polyamorous friends and I and uh, you know, I'm 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:43.840 they asked me how my monogamous relationship is going, and 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:46.800 I'm like, oh, it's good, and they're like, well, wow, 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:51.080 you're missing out over here, and I was like, okay, gang, 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:54.360 let's just play the board game, all right, just do 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:57.720 this front, just respectful of each other. And the other 0:21:57.800 --> 0:22:01.159 thing that is important here is if we're talking about 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:03.320 like this book Sex at Dawn, which is a really 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:06.560 interesting book focuses a lot on one of like the 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:10.159 polyandrous species of monkeys bnobos, but ignores that there are 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:12.640 a lot of monogygamous species as well, So it's it's 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:16.240 entirely possible that, like, we descend more from monogamous types 0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:19.000 of primates than we do from polyandrous types of primates. 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:22.160 And if that's the case, then this period of time 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:25.479 in which most human beings were polyandrous isn't a return 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:27.959 to It wasn't like natural for them. It was something 0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:31.360