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Speaker 1: M hmm. What's Dick and Matador's. I'm Robert Evans hosted

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Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards and that is the intro. People requested

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Speaker 1: that intro, Sophie, I don't need to hear your guff

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Speaker 1: about it. I do want, you know, people's feedback, but

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Speaker 1: I don't need guff. Okay, this is a noun. I

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Speaker 1: don't agree with that. Alright, Well something was Inductor ZUFI.

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Speaker 1: I think that was, by the standards of my recent introductions,

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Speaker 1: one of the best ones I've done. I just don't

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Speaker 1: like Crimes against Potatoes. Well that's actually totally fair. Um,

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Speaker 1: but that introduction, uh does tie in, yeah, slightly with

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Speaker 1: with today's episode. Uh so you know, first off, Jamie Loftus,

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Speaker 1: you are our guest today. How you doing? Jamie co

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Speaker 1: hosted the Bechel Cast the the creative mind behind Boss

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Speaker 1: Whom Is Girl? Which is going to be in Edinburgh

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Speaker 1: probably by the time this episode drops. The most entertaining

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Speaker 1: show I've been to in like the last ten years.

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Speaker 1: Fly to Edinburgh. I've several times, and if you listen

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Speaker 1: to this years later and Jamie Loftus is not in Edinburgh,

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Speaker 1: fly to Edinburgh and demand that they take her back,

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Speaker 1: Like what happened there? Yeah, there's yeah, yeah yeah, force

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Speaker 1: it upon the town fathers of Edinburgh. I mean really

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Speaker 1: optimistic for you to even mention as a possibility as

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Speaker 1: a time period that will exist. Yeah. Well I'm an optimist.

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Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not well, I don't know, I'm a

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Speaker 1: I'm a mix of both, I guess. So today, normally

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Speaker 1: this is a show where I talk about the very

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Speaker 1: worst people in all of history. But today we're doing

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Speaker 1: something a little bit different. We are getting very much

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Speaker 1: behind the bastards because we're going into some prehistory about

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Speaker 1: where authoritarianism comes from, where fascism comes from, how it

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Speaker 1: might be kind of programmed into our brains to an

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Speaker 1: extent um. This is kind of a weird one, and

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Speaker 1: it's based on you know, I read about primarily dictators

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Speaker 1: and terrible unethical political leaders and corporate leaders, people who

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Speaker 1: abuse power, uh, basically as a more than full time job,

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Speaker 1: and having done that for a year and change, you

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Speaker 1: start to have some ideas about the nature of power

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Speaker 1: and the nature of authoritarianism and the possibilities of the

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Speaker 1: human race and stuff. Um, So this is like, uh,

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Speaker 1: it's not a half asked but it's maybe three quarters

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Speaker 1: of an asked attempt at me putting some of that

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Speaker 1: together and explaining some of the conclusions I've drawn, uh

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Speaker 1: from all of this research, and uh it's not ready

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Speaker 1: for public consumption, but I'm gonna put it out there

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Speaker 1: anyway because I'm a hack and a fraud. So that's

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Speaker 1: where we are. I've got Sophie and Jamie in the

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Speaker 1: room to tear me down if if what I'm saying

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Speaker 1: some nonsense, and Anderson and Anderson, this would be really

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Speaker 1: fun if your conclusions were actually I was being kind

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Speaker 1: of dramatic before power is actually really good and I'm

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Speaker 1: going to work for cook Industries. Bye bye. This this

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Speaker 1: ends on a on a pro Saddam Hussein rant, Robert

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Speaker 1: you know what, leave Yeah, I've become a Stalinist. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh god, I just want to hear you refer to

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Speaker 1: yourself as a bit of a drama queen. Turns out

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Speaker 1: this year I've just been a bit of a drama

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Speaker 1: queen and things are actually fine. He's like, I've just

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Speaker 1: been binging Mary Kay and Nashley. You know, that's my

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Speaker 1: new life. As I learned from Mary Kay and Ashley,

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Speaker 1: Everything's fine as long as you as long as you

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Speaker 1: light to your wait, Mary Kay, I was too busy

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Speaker 1: trying to remember exactly what had happened in uh in

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Speaker 1: that movie where they trick their parents into both getting

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Speaker 1: on a cruise ship with them to make their divorced

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Speaker 1: mom and dad get back together. Buddy gun one, isn't

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Speaker 1: that one? That that is? Isn't that uh parent trap?

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Speaker 1: Parent trap? Yeah? Not Mary Kane? Actually not actually twins,

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Speaker 1: that's double Lindsay Lohan. Yeah, and as I miss, wait,

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Speaker 1: was that Lindsay lohunt? That wasn't even Mary Kay? And Nactually,

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Speaker 1: goddamn it. I know I think about the such a

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Speaker 1: that I tried to mention Ariana Grande in casual conversation

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Speaker 1: last year, and you waited maybe a full ten seconds

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Speaker 1: by being like, I don't know who you're talking. I

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Speaker 1: actually bring that up thinking about it once a week.

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Speaker 1: I bring it up constantly with salespeople when they asked

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Speaker 1: me why Robert can't pronounce normal words, and I give

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Speaker 1: them the explanation that he can pronounce some crazy Russian

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Speaker 1: ship but cannot pronounce Ariana Grande. See this is frustrating

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Speaker 1: because I feel like if you, if you add up

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Speaker 1: the number of words that I read every week on

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Speaker 1: this show, I have above a pronunciation rate. Someone crunched

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Speaker 1: those numbers. Yeah, I mean we're talking about ten thousand

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Speaker 1: ish words a week. You know, you get a couple

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Speaker 1: wrong mistakes are made, but usually the words are like tree,

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Speaker 1: t look we I love tries and I pronounced them route.

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Speaker 1: Why did you let us come on the show together?

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Speaker 1: We're not going to get anything done. I needed I

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Speaker 1: needed some ship talking of my my, my philosophizing here,

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Speaker 1: because if I'm going to do an episode where I

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Speaker 1: unload of a half baked philosophy, somebody should be there

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Speaker 1: to like point out when I've made a huge logical

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Speaker 1: error or pronounce a name wrong. Okay, this actually will

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Speaker 1: tie in with something we talked about later in the episode.

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Speaker 1: I didn't plan that ahead of time, but it totally does.

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Speaker 1: And I'm very proud of myself of now. So let's

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Speaker 1: get into it. In nineteen eighty nine, Francis fuku Yama,

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Speaker 1: a political scientist and author, wrote an essay titled the

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Speaker 1: End of History Looking forward just a little bit. He

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Speaker 1: was able to see the fall of the Soviet Union

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Speaker 1: was on the very near horizon. To fuku Yama and

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Speaker 1: too many. At the dawn of the nineteen nineties, it

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Speaker 1: looked as if a new epoch in human society was dawning,

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Speaker 1: one in which the great historical shifts between empires and

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Speaker 1: modes of government that had persisted for EON's would cease,

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Speaker 1: because mankind had clearly arrived at the perfect system, liberal democracy.

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Speaker 1: So that's Fukuyama's thinking in like nineteen eighty nine. Now

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Speaker 1: he turned his essay into a book in nineteen ninety two,

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Speaker 1: after the fall of the USSR, when he looked like

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Speaker 1: he basically read the future UH in the end of history.

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Speaker 1: He wrote that humanity was witnessing quote not just the

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Speaker 1: passing of a particular period of post war history, but

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Speaker 1: the end of history is such that is the endpoint

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Speaker 1: of mankind's ideological evolution, and the universalization of Western liberal

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Speaker 1: demonocracy is the final form of human government. So a

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Speaker 1: bit of a bold claim to make UH and a

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Speaker 1: little less than thirty years later, in the Year of

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Speaker 1: Our Lord twenty nineteen, fuki Yama's theories have not aged well.

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Speaker 1: Rather than living at the end of history, we now

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Speaker 1: seem to be living through a period where these once

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Speaker 1: in vulnerable liberal democracies are dropping faster than fat beats

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Speaker 1: at a warehouse. Rave. Thank you, thank you for that, Jamie.

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Speaker 1: That's proud of that one. Under Victor Orban, Hungary has

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Speaker 1: transitioned to what he calls an illiberal democracy. Under tap

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Speaker 1: resign uh, Turkey has moved very close to an outright dictatorship.

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Speaker 1: The elections of JayR. Bolsonaro in Brazil and Rodrigo du

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Speaker 1: Terte in the Philippines hardly bode any better, But the

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Speaker 1: situation is actually even worse than it looks. Based on

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Speaker 1: all that, researchers with a German institute, Bertelsman stiff Tong

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Speaker 1: published a study back in March of two eighteen that

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Speaker 1: analyzed the quality of democracy, the market, economy, and leadership

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Speaker 1: of some hundred and twenty nine nations. They use this

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Speaker 1: to put together what they called a transformation Index that

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Speaker 1: roughly analyze the overall levels of freedom, authoritarianism, and inequality

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Speaker 1: in those societies. They found that roughly one billion more

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Speaker 1: people live under dictatorships now than did fifteen years ago. Wow,

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Speaker 1: that's insane. Yeah, it's not a great statistic. I don't

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Speaker 1: like that. M hmm. That's all I have to say

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Speaker 1: about it. That's my only comment. Not into it. Okay, Sophie,

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Speaker 1: not a dictatorship fan, bold stance to take considering honestly,

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Speaker 1: brave of you. I mean we can add to that

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Speaker 1: because I feel like our relationship Robert is a dictatorship

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Speaker 1: and I am that dictator. Yes, in which direction nothing

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Speaker 1: would surprise me. And like Stalin, you regularly throw oranges

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Speaker 1: at me and make me watch Cowboy movies while you drink.

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Speaker 1: I've seen it. Yeah, absolutely, I hate to see it

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Speaker 1: and I see it. Yeah, but you are I mean

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Speaker 1: that you are my son, and I accept you for

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Speaker 1: who you are. Yeah, except for when I don't want

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Speaker 1: to watch Cowboy movies. Yeah, not acceptable. Then that's not acceptable.

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Speaker 1: So uh yeah. So these guys look into the number

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Speaker 1: of people living in dictatorships and how that's changed, and

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Speaker 1: they find out that there's a billion more people living

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Speaker 1: under such regimes now than we're fifteen years ago. I've

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Speaker 1: had a write up of this study in the Local,

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Speaker 1: which is a German newspaper. Quote. Well, the researchers concluded

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Speaker 1: that the number of people living in democracies rose from

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Speaker 1: four billion to four point two billion between two thousand

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Speaker 1: and three and two thousand seventeen. They also found that

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Speaker 1: three point three billion people lived under dictatorship last year

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Speaker 1: compared to two point three billion in two thousand three.

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Speaker 1: So the trends aren't good. Uh. It is said that

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Speaker 1: the number of countries classified as having exemplary standards of

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Speaker 1: free and fair elections had dropped from one in six

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Speaker 1: and two thousand six to one in fourteen last year.

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Speaker 1: And while seventeen of the hundred and twenty nine countries

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Speaker 1: were considered to have completely unrestricted freedom of press and

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Speaker 1: opinion in two thousand six, that was the case for

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Speaker 1: just ten countries last year. Okay, so we're not We're

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Speaker 1: not on a great trend line if you you want

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Speaker 1: to look at history that way. Um. Now, in every

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Speaker 1: era there are philosophers whose purpose seems to be to

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Speaker 1: reinforce in the minds of the great and good that

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Speaker 1: whatever systems put them in their lofty place are right

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Speaker 1: and decent and perfect. What would you, Francis fuki Yama

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Speaker 1: was that man cheering the victors of the Cold War

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Speaker 1: on and assuring them that their world order would persist

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Speaker 1: for all time, And now that mankind seems to be

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Speaker 1: sinking into a darker and more authoritarian era. A new

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Speaker 1: philosopher has arrived to praise the righteousness of this shift.

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Speaker 1: His name is Dr Jordan Peterson. Stand about, I was

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Speaker 1: having a perfectly lovely conversation. Yeah, we were having a

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Speaker 1: conversation while you were talking, and then I got the

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Speaker 1: Jordan Peterson momo and I had just had a sharp pain.

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Speaker 1: But before we get into that sharp pain, what would

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Speaker 1: all what would what would you sell the Lofty Place?

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Speaker 1: What would you sell at the Lofty Place with a

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Speaker 1: whole sorts of ship? I mean it would be and

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Speaker 1: also none of it would be It would be I

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Speaker 1: think probably a front for something else. Like it would

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Speaker 1: be mostly I don't even know. I'm not I'm not

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Speaker 1: a very good consumerwards, So yeah, it would be a

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Speaker 1: shop for Okay, no, it's just supposed to be a shop,

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Speaker 1: but it's actually a trap. Um so i'll, you know,

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Speaker 1: like lure in like sword guys and capture Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: like guys who own swords. And then it's really kind

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Speaker 1: of like a re education kind of thing, and the

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Speaker 1: doors snap and then I teach the sword guys a

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Speaker 1: thing or two about a thing or two, and then

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Speaker 1: they leave mentally healthier. I can respect that. Back to

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Speaker 1: Jordan Peterson, well, I mean speaking of sword guys, he

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Speaker 1: kind of ties in there. But he also ties into

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Speaker 1: authoritarianism because in his best selling book Twelve Rules for

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Speaker 1: Life and Antidote to Chaos, Dr Peterson argues that strict

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Speaker 1: hierarchies are natural and healthy, at least to some extent,

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Speaker 1: according to a write up in the conversation quote. To

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Speaker 1: prove his point, Peterson uses the example of lobsters, which

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Speaker 1: humans share a common evolutionary ancestor with. Peterson argues that,

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Speaker 1: like humans, lobsters exist in hierarchies and have a nervous

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Speaker 1: system attuned to status, which runs on serotonin, a brain

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Speaker 1: chemical often associated with feelings of happiness. But higher up

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Speaker 1: a hierarchy of lobster climbs, This brain mechanism helps to

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Speaker 1: make more serotonin available. The more defeat it suffers, the

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Speaker 1: more restricted the serotonin supply. Lower serotonin is in turn

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Speaker 1: associated with more negative emotions, perhaps making it harder to

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Speaker 1: climb back up the ladder. According to Peterson, hierarchies and

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Speaker 1: humans work in a similar way. We are wired to

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Speaker 1: live in them. So that's Dr Peterson, And as much

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Speaker 1: as I might personally find him frustrating a disagreeable. He's

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Speaker 1: not the only person making arguments like this, do we

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Speaker 1: have a sea? Do we have a second source? I

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Speaker 1: just don't like his We've got other sources and and yeah,

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Speaker 1: unfortunately we have other sources. Uh. There's a distressing amount

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Speaker 1: of data that reinforces the idea that strict hierarchy may

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Speaker 1: be more natural to humankind than the egalitarian future those

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Speaker 1: of us who grew up watching Star Trek the next

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Speaker 1: generation might prefer. In two thousand eight, a scientific study

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Speaker 1: on a hierarchy and the human brains started making the rounds.

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Speaker 1: Online websites like PBS News Hour summarize it with headlines

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Speaker 1: like this, social status is hardwired into the brain, study

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Speaker 1: shows The research this article and others like it discussed

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Speaker 1: was based on a study conducted by the National Institute

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Speaker 1: of Mental Health using an FMR I to measure the

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Speaker 1: brain activity of seventy two people playing a computer game

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Speaker 1: with financial rewards on the line. According to the press

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Speaker 1: release quote, there were assigned a status that they were

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Speaker 1: told was based on their playing skill. In fact, the

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Speaker 1: game outcomes were predetermined by the other players simulated by

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Speaker 1: computer participants intermittently saw pictures and scores of an inferior

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Speaker 1: and a superior player they thought were simultaneously playing in

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Speaker 1: other rooms. Although they knew the perceived players scores would

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Speaker 1: not affect their own outcomes a reward, and were instructed

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Speaker 1: to ignore them. Participants brain activity and behavior were highly

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Speaker 1: influenced by their position in the implied hierarchy. Now I

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Speaker 1: found a more detailed breakdown of that study by an

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Speaker 1: actual scientist, Dr. Kabiz Kamrani, writing on anthropology dot net,

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Speaker 1: and he notes quote Overall, this observation implies that social

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Speaker 1: status is highly valued in our subconscious minds, even as

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Speaker 1: much as money. The press is gorging itself on the

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Speaker 1: sound bite they just love it when something is complex

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Speaker 1: as social hierarchy and brain functions are reduced to something

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Speaker 1: as simple as gaining money. Another interesting observation involved subjects

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Speaker 1: that were presented a superior competitor in the game. When

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Speaker 1: that happened at triggered activity in quote, an area near

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Speaker 1: the front of the brain that appears to size people up,

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Speaker 1: making interpersonal judgments and assessing social status. A circuit involving

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Speaker 1: the midfront part of the brain that processes the intentions

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Speaker 1: and most motives of others and emotion processing areas deep

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Speaker 1: in the brain activated when the hierarchy became unstable, allowing

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Speaker 1: for upward and downward nobility. That it is the prefrontal

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Speaker 1: cortex is the judge bitch cortex. Y Dr Camrani goes

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Speaker 1: on to write, these results kind of thwart any utopian

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Speaker 1: anarchists out there. This data shows that are hierarchical consciousness

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Speaker 1: seems to be ingrained in the human brains so much

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Speaker 1: so that there are distinct circuits activated by concerns over

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Speaker 1: social rank. So like, so like, what what kind of

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Speaker 1: a study is this? Like did he how many? It's

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Speaker 1: an f M r I studies. So they're doing these

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Speaker 1: sort of things to try to make put people in

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Speaker 1: situations where they would be specifically like maybe lad to

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Speaker 1: think about their rank in a hierarchy, and they're also

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Speaker 1: measuring their brains at the same time, and they're finding that, like,

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Speaker 1: because of the way that people's brains react in these studies,

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Speaker 1: it suggests that parts of our brain are hardwired um

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Speaker 1: to view ourselves in part of a social hierarchy, as

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Speaker 1: opposed to like human beings inherently being egalitarian and social

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Speaker 1: hierarchy being something that's falsely imposed on us from outside,

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Speaker 1: Like the structure of our brain, uh, seems to reinforce hierarchy.

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Speaker 1: And do we know is there like are we pulling

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Speaker 1: from like a wide group of yeah, a sample, yeah,

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Speaker 1: not samples. This is this is just one study, um,

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Speaker 1: but there are other studies that have found similar things

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Speaker 1: that its specific study does, say the sample size of

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Speaker 1: the group that he did. Yeah, this one's I think

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Speaker 1: a seventy two persons study, this most recent one here. Um.

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Speaker 1: But there's like this is this is like sort of

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Speaker 1: emblematic of one sort of strain of research, and there's

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Speaker 1: a couple of other studies in it that talk about, um,

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Speaker 1: hierarchy and stuff. So it's not I'm not trying to

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Speaker 1: present this as like the end all be all, but

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Speaker 1: it is kind of a bummer to read stuff like that, um,

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Speaker 1: because it, Yeah, it would seem to push the conclusion

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Speaker 1: that we are to some extent, at least irrevocably chain

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Speaker 1: to hierarchy, to systems of inequality, uh and in other words,

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Speaker 1: to a world dominated by bastards. And while that would

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Speaker 1: mean eternal job security for Sophie and I, it's not

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Speaker 1: a worry that a world that I want to live

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Speaker 1: in particularly, so I dug a little bit deeper with

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Speaker 1: a little bit of desperation to it. Um, And I

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Speaker 1: found evidence to suggest that our primate ants sestors, or

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Speaker 1: at least many of our primate ancestors, would have been

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Speaker 1: beings with strict social hierarchies. Scientists think this is plausible

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Speaker 1: because many of our modern ape and monkey relatives show

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Speaker 1: evidence of this too. Gibbons are strictly monogamous, Chimpanzees have

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Speaker 1: elaborate sexual hierarchies, Silverback guerrillas don't exactly work out their

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Speaker 1: differences in mutual self criticism sessions. UM. I'm trying not

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Speaker 1: to be too absolutist with anything here, but I think

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Speaker 1: it's it's fair to say, based on a lot of

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Speaker 1: anthropological research, that many of the pre human primates we

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Speaker 1: descended from would have behaved in similar ways, which is

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Speaker 1: probably why we have brains that are to some extent

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Speaker 1: hardwired for hierarchy. UM. Now, this gets more complicated when

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Speaker 1: you also slot in the fact that an increasing body

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Speaker 1: of anthropological research suggests that many of our hunter gatherer

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Speaker 1: ancestors would have lived in egalitarian communities. Which is the

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Speaker 1: conclusion that scientists increasingly make as they study ancient man

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Speaker 1: and modern hunter gatherers, who sort of are seen as

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Speaker 1: kind of a stand in for our ancestors. Um. Which

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Speaker 1: kind of suggests that tens of thousands of years in

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Speaker 1: our past, at some point, you know, we sort of

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Speaker 1: evolved with this this like structures in our brain that

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Speaker 1: kind of function the same way as like an addiction

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Speaker 1: to hierarchy, and at some point in our past we

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Speaker 1: got over it for a period of like thousands and

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Speaker 1: thousands and thousands of years. UM. So yeah, that's interesting

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Speaker 1: to me. Now. In two thousan twelve researchers writing for

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Speaker 1: the Journal of Human Nature published the results of a

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Speaker 1: study into a sample of fifty three human societies in

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Speaker 1: which polyandrous unions were common. Um, I see where we're

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Speaker 1: going here, Robert. I don't know. This is just a

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Speaker 1: little bit but not for the most part, nack is

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Speaker 1: just just a little bit, just a little bit rounded

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Speaker 1: your lifestyle. I can't believe this. Now we demonstrate that

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Speaker 1: although polyandry is rare, it is not as rare as

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Speaker 1: commonly believed as found worldwide it and is in most

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Speaker 1: common in egalitarian societies. We also argue that polyandry likely

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Speaker 1: existed during yeah early human history and should be examined

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Speaker 1: from an evolutionary perspective. Our analysis reveals that it may

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Speaker 1: be a predictable response. Okay, here's the thing. It's a

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Speaker 1: predictable response to a high operational sex ratio favoring males,

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Speaker 1: and may also be a response to high rates of

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Speaker 1: male mortality and possibly male absenteees. Longer makes sense. No, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: that's not what it is. Because men in ancient societies

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Speaker 1: would have died so often, it didn't make sense for

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Speaker 1: people to be strictly monogamous. So you should if you're

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Speaker 1: going to have men dying at a high rate because

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Speaker 1: they're out hunting stuff. It makes sense if everyone in

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Speaker 1: the tribe raises all of the kids, and if people

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Speaker 1: don't have strong bonds of monogamy. That's what they're saying. Um,

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Speaker 1: ancient people weren't polyandrous because they were making an ethical

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Speaker 1: choice about it being more ethical than monogamy. It's just

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Speaker 1: if there's a hundred and fifty of you and your

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Speaker 1: tribe and people are dropping all the time because they're

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Speaker 1: out fucking hunting wool and ship it doesn't make sense

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Speaker 1: to like have oh his her husband died, so now

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Speaker 1: her kids don't get food. Like, that's not a great

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Speaker 1: way to if there's not that many of you, you

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Speaker 1: just can't live that way. You gotta stay hornies, stay

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Speaker 1: frothy all the time. Yeah, Or it's it's more that like, uh,

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Speaker 1: Like one of the things that's really common in particularly

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Speaker 1: a lot of Latin American tribal societies is they have

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Speaker 1: these beliefs about sperm that once a woman gets pregnant,

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Speaker 1: every guy she has sex with after the pregnancy has

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Speaker 1: started contribute sperm that helps build the child. And so

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Speaker 1: kids have multiple fathers in the tribe and that means

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Speaker 1: that like if two or three of them die, you

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Speaker 1: still got three or four dads, and like they're all

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Speaker 1: responsible for teaching the kids certain things, which is a

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Speaker 1: really logical way to have a society if there's if

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Speaker 1: you're a hunter gatherer tribe, it makes sense logic. I've

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Speaker 1: never found more daddies to be I don't need there

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Speaker 1: to be like girls that have or boys that have

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Speaker 1: like more than one dad daddy, unless we're talking about

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Speaker 1: sugar daddy culture, in which case you do you Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: I think you guys and your reaction when I started

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Speaker 1: talking about polyandry does make sense to me because like

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm polyamorous, and I'm I'm familiar with a lot

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Speaker 1: of frustrating people in that community who will make claims

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Speaker 1: that like, oh, it's more natural. Um, it's more ethical

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Speaker 1: because our ancestors did it, And it's important to not

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Speaker 1: that Like, No, our ancestors, to the extent that they

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Speaker 1: were polyandrous, didn't do it for ethical reasons. They did

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Speaker 1: it because it was like made logical sense for the

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Speaker 1: world that they lived in. Yeah, it's it's when it's

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Speaker 1: just something to tweet about. I love when I see

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Speaker 1: my polyamorous friends and I and uh, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: they asked me how my monogamous relationship is going, and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, it's good, and they're like, well, wow,

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Speaker 1: you're missing out over here, and I was like, okay, gang,

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Speaker 1: let's just play the board game, all right, just do

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Speaker 1: this front, just respectful of each other. And the other

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Speaker 1: thing that is important here is if we're talking about

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Speaker 1: like this book Sex at Dawn, which is a really

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00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 1: interesting book focuses a lot on one of like the

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Speaker 1: polyandrous species of monkeys bnobos, but ignores that there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of monogygamous species as well, So it's it's

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Speaker 1: entirely possible that, like, we descend more from monogamous types

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Speaker 1: of primates than we do from polyandrous types of primates.

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Speaker 1: And if that's the case, then this period of time

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Speaker 1: in which most human beings were polyandrous isn't a return

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Speaker 1: to It wasn't like natural for them. It was something

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00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,360
Speaker 1: that they evolved to do, and no more natural than

402
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,359
Speaker 1: like a cell phone, and like a cell phone was

403
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Speaker 1: essentially like an adaptation people developed over time in order

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Speaker 1: to increase their odds of survival, which is what I'm

405
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Speaker 1: getting to here. It is a bigger point than polyandry.

406
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Speaker 1: What else can increase your chances of survival? Products and

407
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 1: services it's an ad break, Damn they will, especially if

408
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 1: it's dick Pills, which fits right into what we're talking

409
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: about God, but also fun cook Industries, Fox News right, yeah, right, yeah,

410
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 1: fuck like monkeys. Thanks to Dick Pills products, we're back,

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Speaker 1: and I'm I'm continuing to build to my larger point,

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Speaker 1: which is gonna keep going on. So there's a two

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Speaker 1: thousand fifteen study by the University College of London, which

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Speaker 1: put forward the same suggestion that men and women in

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Speaker 1: pre agricultural human society has likely lived in relative equality.

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Speaker 1: Mark Dibble, lead author and the study, said sexual equality

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Speaker 1: is one of the important changes that distinguishes humans. It

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Speaker 1: hasn't really been highlighted before. So again, this guy is

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Speaker 1: saying this is a change it was. It's not a

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Speaker 1: thing that came naturally to us. It's something that we

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Speaker 1: adapted to for specific benefits. So these two studies are

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Speaker 1: part of an surprisingly large, to me, pretty convincing body

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Speaker 1: of research which makes the case both at the now

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Speaker 1: standard nuclear family has not been the norm for much

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Speaker 1: of human history, and that human society in the days

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Speaker 1: when life was nasty, brutish and short was also a

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Speaker 1: lot more equal and less exploitative than it does today,

428
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,159
Speaker 1: not just for reasons of the kind of sexual bonds

429
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 1: people had. I'm gonna quote from a Guardian report on

430
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 1: the matter. The first real splash in this arena came

431
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: from the anthropologist Lewis Morgan and his book Ancient Society.

432
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: In the book, Morgan presented the results of his study

433
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 1: of the Iroquois, a Native American hunter gatherer society, and

434
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 1: upstate New York. The Iroquois Morgan observed lived in large

435
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 1: family units based on polyamorous relationships, in which men and

436
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: women lived in general equality. Morgan's work had a broader

437
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,400
Speaker 1: audience when it was taken up by Friedrich Ingle's, most

438
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,919
Speaker 1: famous for being the co author of the Communist Manifesto.

439
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: In his book The Origin of Family Private Property in

440
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 1: the State, Ingles drew on Morgan's data, as well as

441
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: evidence from around the world, to argue that prehistoric society

442
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 1: has lived in what he called primitive communism. Other anthropologists

443
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,359
Speaker 1: now called this fierce egalitarianism, societies where families were based

444
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 1: on polyamory, in which in would people lived in active equality,

445
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 1: i e. Equality is enforced. And that's the key part here.

446
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: Enforced In our society, rules are enforced unevenly and imperfectly

447
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 1: by law enforcement of varying stripes. But we all accept

448
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: that most of the things we consider crimes will not

449
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,879
Speaker 1: be punished. Most drug users won't be busted, most men

450
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 1: who beat their wives won't go to jail. Roughly of

451
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: murderers get away with their crimes. And I probably don't

452
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 1: need to point out to this audience that the number

453
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 1: of rapists who don't get punished for their crimes is

454
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: way higher than UM. So we can understand that statistic,

455
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: and that's you can. You can you can have a

456
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,360
Speaker 1: society that more or less functions with those statistics when

457
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: there's hundreds of millions of you, and there's way more

458
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 1: food than everyone needs to eat, and the margins of

459
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: survival for our social groups are pretty wide. Primitive hunter

460
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: gatherer humans, however, lived in small bands of several dozen

461
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 1: to perhaps a hundred and fifty or so at the

462
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: large end of things. They lived in a world in

463
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: a time in which the margins of life and death

464
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: were much thinner. Their tribes could not survive people stealing

465
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: food from each other or committing multiple murders. This is

466
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why some scientists suspect polyamory was

467
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: so common among humans in this period. And um or

468
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: do I miss it? Did you say the average lifespan

469
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: around this time? That's not a super useful statistic because

470
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: of of of infant mortality. Like one of the mistakes

471
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 1: a lot of people make when they think about the

472
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: past is like, oh, the average lifespan was thirty five.

473
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: That means that thirty year an old man. No, if

474
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: you make it to thirty, you're probably gonna live to

475
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: fifty or sixty at least, and seventy wouldn't even be crazy.

476
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 1: It's just that so many fucking babies are dying back

477
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: then that it drops the average a lot. Yeah. Yeah,

478
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 1: it's not at all weird for people who make it

479
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: to thirty to live to like sixty even back then.

480
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 1: You know, maybe fifty would be a lot more common.

481
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: Sixties still really old then, but people aren't. It's not

482
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: the norm to die at thirty. It's the norm to

483
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 1: die as a baby. I mean, yeah, it's like I mean,

484
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: by the time you're thirty, you're on a roll in

485
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 1: terms of being alive. Yes, you're probably a pretty tough

486
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: son of a bitch if you make it to thirty

487
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 1: in that kind of world, or daughter of a bastard um,

488
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 1: although there would not have been a lot of bastards

489
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 1: back then because societies couldn't survive them, which is the

490
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: point I'm building too. So yeah, So, ancient tribal people

491
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: had a huge number of what are called leveling mechanisms

492
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 1: that's the anthropological term, to defend themselves against dangerous members

493
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: of the group and This is where I get to

494
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 1: tell you, guys, one of my very very very very

495
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 1: very favorite stories. Have you ever heard of the shaming

496
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 1: of the meat? No? No, it doesn't has nothing to

497
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: do with sex. It has something to do with gender,

498
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 1: but nothing to do with sex whatever. Richard borche Lee

499
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: is a Canadian anthropologist who has spent a huge amount

500
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: of time living with and studying and writing about modern

501
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: hunter gatherer people's like the and the ju Juanci, both

502
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: of which I'm sure I've mispronounced the names of. Like

503
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: the you have to do like a weird I I can't.

504
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 1: I just I'm not gonna be able to. But they're

505
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: the Ekong people. Uh. These are people who exist today

506
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 1: in our modern, connected world, but the rhythms of their

507
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 1: lives and tactics of their societies are seen by anthropologists

508
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: as sort of a window into the human past. Uh.

509
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: Studying them is not a perfect look at our ancestors,

510
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: but it's about as good as we can get. In

511
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies, Richard spent time living with the Kong,

512
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: and near the end of this period embedded with them.

513
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: It just so happened to coincide with Christmas and out

514
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: of a sense of festivity and a desire to express

515
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: his gratitude towards the tribe for hosting him. Richard Lee

516
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: bought a gigantic ox to present them so that everybody

517
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: could have a sweet ass feast. Now, the ox he

518
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: picked weighed twelve hundred pounds, which meant that it was

519
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: enough meat for every man, woman and child among the

520
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: tribues with to get like four pounds of meat. So

521
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: he's like, this is fucking awesome, Like I've made this

522
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: is gonna be a great gift. This is a great

523
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: way to show my gratitude to them. They're gonna love

524
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: this ship. So I go a quote now from what

525
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: he wrote about this experience, which is a basically an

526
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: article titled Eating Christmas in the Kalahari, which you can

527
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: find online. It will be in the source notes. It's

528
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: a great read quote. The next morning, words spread among

529
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: the people that the big solid black one was was

530
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: the ox chosen by Unta my bushman name. It means

531
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: roughly whitey for the Christmas feast. That afternoon, I received

532
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: the first delegation. Binnah, an outspoken sixty year old mother

533
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: of five, came to the point slowly where were you

534
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: planning to eat Christmas right here, I replied, a loner

535
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: with others, I expect to invite all the people to

536
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: eat Christmas with me. Eat what I have purchased. You

537
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: have as black ox, and I am going to slaughter

538
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: and cook it. That's what we were told at the well,

539
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 1: but refused to believe it until we heard it from yourself. Well,

540
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: it's the black one, I replied expansively, although wondering what

541
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: she was driving at. Oh no, ben A groaned, turning

542
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: to her group. They were right. Turning back to me,

543
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: she asked, do you expect us to eat that bag

544
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: of bones? Bag of bones? It's the biggest ox here, big, yes,

545
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: but old and fin. Everybody knows there's no meat on

546
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: that old ox. What did you expect us to eat?

547
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: Off it? The horns? Everybody chuckled at ben as one

548
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: liner as they walked away. But all I can manage

549
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: was a weak grin. Are you wondering where this is going?

550
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: You're gonna fucking you. You're gonna fucking love it. Okay,

551
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: I'm excited great. Over the next several days, tribesmen and

552
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: women and children would make repeated mocking gibes to Richard

553
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: about the scrawny size of the enormous ox that he

554
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: bought them. No, I don't know, Lee, but reading his

555
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: writing you get the fielding. He's a very open minded,

556
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: friendly and hard to rattle sort of dude, which you'd

557
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: expect from an anthropologist who spent his whole life like

558
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: living among different tribal groups around the world. But even

559
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: he started meat story, yeah, it's it's frustrating. Will they

560
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: keep harping on him? Dozens and dozens of of Like

561
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: everyone in the tribe is making fun of him for

562
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: days about this, So he starts to get frustrated and

563
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: even angry as this goes on, and eventually some of

564
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: his good friends among the tribe explained to him that

565
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: this was common behavior, particularly from other members of the

566
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: tribe towards their young hunters. You you just make fun

567
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: of people for the shittiness of whatever they hunt, regardless

568
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: of how big it is, when it's time to like

569
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: help them clean and cook it. So, in frustration and confusion,

570
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: Lee asked one of his friends, why insult a man

571
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: after he has gone to all that trouble to track

572
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: and kill an animal, and when he is going to

573
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: share the meat with you so that your children will

574
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: have something to eat. Arrogance was his cryptic answer. Arrogance. Yes,

575
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: when a young man kills much meat, he comes to

576
00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: think of himself as a chief or a big man,

577
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: and he thinks of the rest of us as his

578
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: servants or inferiors. We can't accept this. We refuse one

579
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: who boasts, for someday his pride will make him kill somebody,

580
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: So we always speak of his meat is worthless. This

581
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: way we cool his heart and make him gentle. So

582
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: this is like the meat version of like humility. Yeah,

583
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: this is how you enforce humility among a hunter gathered. Try.

584
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: This is how you attack and fight the male ego

585
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 1: when you can't afford to let it go out of

586
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 1: control like it gets to do in our society. Wow. Yeah,

587
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: that's kind of beautiful. I mean, you like to text

588
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: me all the time telling me that you're embarrassed by

589
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: your gender, which I just wanted to bring up for

590
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: no reason. I get frustrating a lot. That's nice, I mean,

591
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: I do think it is also funny that it's like, Okay,

592
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: how do we get through to the men. It's like, okay,

593
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: let's just rap a moral and a bunch of meat

594
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: and maybe they won't taste it on the way down.

595
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: This is kind of very Texas by any means necessary.

596
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: I like dream texts. This story is so Robert. Now.

597
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: There are some scientists who theorize that sarcasm and humor

598
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: itself evolved in human culture as a leveling mechanism, as

599
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: a way to cool the hearts of arrogant young men

600
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: before they went mad with power. So that's like why

601
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: we have humor. That's why we have deadpools things, things

602
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: have gotten mutated, but like that was its initial purpose,

603
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 1: is to allow us to because like humor is a

604
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: making fun of somebody, Insulting somebody is a way to

605
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: attack them without physically fighting and getting into a physical

606
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: battle where people die and are injured. So that's sort

607
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: of the theory that like maybe this is kind of

608
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: the evolutionary use of a sense of humor or at

609
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: least one of them. If being good at insults is

610
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: just uh not attacking someone I'm a you know, fucking samurai.

611
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean there's a reason why in so

612
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 1: many cultures around the world, like it's pretty common for

613
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 1: people's grandmas to be like both kind of in charge

614
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 1: of the family and also talking shit about everybody all

615
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: the time, like, um, yeah, we the evolution of sarcasm

616
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: is what what a what a dark road to go down?

617
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: Target the other day, I said, sarcasm, it's how I hug.

618
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: I think it really speaks to your point. Uh. And

619
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: also a funk that shirt and anyone that's ever worn it.

620
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: It's gotten out of hand end in the modern era,

621
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: but we can see where it started. Yeah, dead Pool

622
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: Robert mistakes are made. Yeah. So there's a body of

623
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: scientific research that suggests possessing power impacts the brain and

624
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,720
Speaker 1: manner similar to brain damage. Dr Keltner, a psychology professor

625
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: at u C. Berkeley, is one of the scientists on

626
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,720
Speaker 1: the forefront of this field of study. From the Atlantic quote,

627
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: subjects under the influence of power, he found, in studies

628
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: spanning two decades acted as if they had suffered a

629
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 1: traumatic brain injury, becoming more impulsive, less risk aware, and

630
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: crucially less adept at seeing things from other people's point

631
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: of view. Uh. Suke Vender Opie, a neuroscientistic master University

632
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: in Ontario, recently described something similar. Unlike Keltner, who studies behaviors,

633
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: Opie studies brains, and when he put the heads of

634
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: the powerful and the not so powerful under a transcranial

635
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,760
Speaker 1: magnetic stimulation machine, he found that power in fact impairs

636
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 1: a specific neural process, mirroring that maybe a cornerstone of empathy. Now,

637
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: before we take too much out of this, there's a

638
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 1: lot of debate about the validity of this research and

639
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: the extent to which it can tell us anything about

640
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 1: the real world. I found an interesting neuroskeptic article that

641
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: points out that power priming, which is the kind of

642
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: studies that were conducted to get these results, power priming

643
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: studies have real flaws when we try to apply their

644
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 1: lessons outside of a research context. But I think the

645
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 1: lived experience of the I Kung and other hunter gatherers

646
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: seems to support at least the conclusion that a lot

647
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,280
Speaker 1: of people who live on like traditional more hunter gatherers

648
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 1: societies kind of understood that power was bad for people

649
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: and it made them more dangerous to themselves and others,

650
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,760
Speaker 1: and that they needed to be like egalitarianism was then again,

651
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 1: not an ethical decision. It's a defensive reaction to the

652
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: dangers of power. So I find it that interesting. I think, yeah,

653
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 1: that that definitely tracks with a lot of That's part

654
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 1: of why I do think that like powerful people using

655
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: social media is so extremely interesting, as you can almost

656
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:05,959
Speaker 1: like see the rot on the edges of their brain.

657
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: And like even like Trump aside, there's like there's so

658
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: many examples of just like you can just see in

659
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 1: real time the brain rot forming the famous people. Yeah yeah,

660
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 1: but I mean just like influential people who have too

661
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,919
Speaker 1: much money for your own good, Like you can even

662
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: like social media influencers your corrosion. Well, they're chaotic, evil.

663
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: I don't even include them. But like I think, like

664
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 1: the best example of that I've seen recently is Elon

665
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: Musk's bizarre crusade against crediting artists, which is like if

666
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,680
Speaker 1: you had sat down with him, if he'd never gotten

667
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: on Twitter, and you just sat down with him be like, oh,

668
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: if you share the work of an artist you like,

669
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: you should add their name to it, he would have

670
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 1: been like, oh, yeah, of course that makes total sense. Yeah,

671
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: but because of the way social media works, somebody says

672
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 1: that on Twitter and he just immediately attacks them. It's

673
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: like this, why are you having this fight? Elon Musk?

674
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 1: I mean, his entire online presence like it should be

675
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: there should be a thesis paper on it, because it is.

676
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: It's like you you can just see his brain turning

677
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: to dust its very eyes, yeah, like and interest seeing.

678
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that that's an extension of things that

679
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,839
Speaker 1: have been going on, you know, since the beginning of time,

680
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,240
Speaker 1: but like actually getting to observe it and having people

681
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 1: volunteer that information to you is fascinating. I suspect I

682
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: don't I can't know this, but like, if we can

683
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 1: imagine a world in which Donald Trump never had Twitter

684
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: but also still got elected president, my suspicion is that

685
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: he'd suck less. Not I don't think you would have

686
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: been elected without never without Twitter, But yeah, I think

687
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: it's been bad for him. Yeah, I think that I

688
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 1: had worked in his favor during the election, and then

689
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,439
Speaker 1: during his presidency it's been just like a giant Yeah. Yeah,

690
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 1: You're welcome swners for that sound effect. Back to my

691
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 1: my theory here that I'm still building towards. There's a

692
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 1: lot of like I'm taking you on, like the journey

693
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: of just ship I've been thinking about for the last

694
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: year and a half. So this is kind of like

695
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: the pattern my brain has taken it as best as

696
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: I can recreate my brain rot that's what we're touring.

697
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: So there's a tendency and progressive thought, and it's something

698
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: that I fight against a lot to look at groups

699
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: like the Iroquois and other research into our egalitarian ancestors

700
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: and make the point that such forms of social organization

701
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 1: are more natural and thus healthier than the supremely hierarchical

702
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: societies we live in today. But I tend to think

703
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 1: the evolution of leveling mechanisms like the shaming of the

704
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: meat suggests kind of the opposite, well, at least not

705
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: about the healthy thing, but about it being natural. Hierarchy

706
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:50,760
Speaker 1: is natural for human beings. It's something our brains slide

707
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: into without careful vigilance. Our ancestors were not egalitarian because

708
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 1: it felt natural. They evolved to enforce egalitarianism with great

709
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,800
Speaker 1: vigilance as a defense mechanism against the dangers of power.

710
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 1: And this presents perhaps a less utopian view of man's

711
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: inherent nature, but I think it also posits a more

712
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: optimistic picture of our future, because if Homo sapiens beat

713
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: the problems of ingrained hierarchy once, then we can fucking

714
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 1: well do it again. Yeah, thank you. And that leads

715
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: pretty naturally to my next question. If our ancestors once

716
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 1: lived free, fucking egalitarian lives, sleeping under the stars, probably

717
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: taking hell of mushrooms and not enforcing strict gender hierarchy,

718
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:36,919
Speaker 1: wh whoa who went wrong? How did we go from

719
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,439
Speaker 1: all that to the last you know, ten thousand years

720
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: or whatever of human history, which you know has kind

721
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: of been a ship show. But but do you know

722
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: what is not a ship show? Ship the products and

723
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: services that support the show. Oh I was I was

724
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 1: about to drop the ball yet again and be like,

725
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 1: how do you mean? What do you mean? I'm Robert,

726
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: thank you, product X. We're back. So we're talking about

727
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 1: why this egalitarian order of the human race that seems

728
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: to have existed at a point in the distant past,

729
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 1: what made it fall apart? Uh? And I found a

730
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: good rite up on this subject in New Scientist magazine

731
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: by a researcher named Deborah Rodgers. She cites social anthropologist

732
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: Christopher Bohm, who believes the suppression of the dominance hierarchies

733
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 1: of our primate ancestors was a quote central adaptation of

734
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: human evolution. Bom thinks we would not have spread across

735
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: the world without the adaptation of egalitarianism. He notes, inequality

736
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 1: did not spread because it is a better system for

737
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 1: our survival. So why then, did inequality eat the world? Well,

738
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 1: that's a question that's been posed by a number of histories.

739
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 1: Great thinkers. Jean Jacques Rousseau theorized in seventeen fifty four

740
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: that inequality started with the idea of prime at property.

741
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 1: Social Darwinists in the eighteen hundreds thought that inequality was

742
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: the inevitable result of the struggle of survival of the fittest,

743
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: in which the more fit and almost inevitably white people

744
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: formed a natural aristocracy by dint of their evolutionary success.

745
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: But this thinking has continued to evolve in the twentieth century.

746
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: According to Deborah Rogers quote, by the mid twentieth century,

747
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: a new theory began to dominate. Anthropologists including Julian Steward,

748
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,359
Speaker 1: Leslie White, and Robert Carniro offered a slightly different versions

749
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: of this following story. Population growth mean we needed more food,

750
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 1: so we turned to agriculture, which led to surplus and

751
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 1: the need for managers and specialized roles, which in turn

752
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: led to corresponding social classes. Meanwhile, we began to use

753
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 1: up natural resources and needed to venture ever further afield

754
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: to seek them out. This expansion bread conflict and conquest,

755
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: with a conquered becoming the underclass. The more recent explanations

756
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,280
Speaker 1: have expanded on these ideas. One line of reasoning suggests

757
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 1: that self aggrandizing individuals who lived in lands of plenty

758
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,359
Speaker 1: ascended the social ranks by exploiting their surplus, first through

759
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 1: feasts or gift giving, and later by outright dominance at

760
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: the group level, argues and argue anthropologist Peter Richardson and

761
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,879
Speaker 1: Robert Boyd. Improved coordination and division of labor allowed more

762
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: complex societies to outcompete the simpler, more equal societies from

763
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: a mechanistic perspective. Others argued that once inequality took hold,

764
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 1: is when uneven resource distribution benefited one family more than others,

765
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 1: it's simply became ever more entrenched. The advent of agriculture

766
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 1: and trade resulted in private property inheritance and larger trade networks,

767
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: which perpetuated and compounded economic advantages. So it's like when

768
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: you're in college and you have to do a group

769
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: project and you have some people that are either like

770
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 1: not available or like bad or and then you have

771
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: the people that are busy bodies and want to do everything.

772
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: And then you have the people that you know, have

773
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 1: the special tutors, so they know how to do everything

774
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: because they have help. And then you people get a

775
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,919
Speaker 1: better grade and then things, people get jobs, people don't

776
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: get's like college. It's like college. It's a group. Or

777
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 1: do you leave sad and in debt and you may

778
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,839
Speaker 1: or may not get a job, and you probably are

779
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 1: not getting a job in the thing you studied. Or

780
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,879
Speaker 1: it's like college, and that the people who didn't go

781
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: wound up without tens of thousands of dollars in debt,

782
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: and so uh wind up a lot wealthier again, so

783
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,840
Speaker 1: they benefit from the fruits of the labor of others.

784
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: And then the higher I see, Okay, it's so it's college.

785
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: It's like college. Yeah. Now, if we find this new

786
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:41,280
Speaker 1: school of thought credible, then hierarchy and authoritarianism itself seemed

787
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 1: not like the natural order of things, but more like

788
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: a virus, one that was forcibly beaten down and almost

789
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 1: wiped out for thousands of years, but persisted in some

790
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: isolated corners until the development of agriculture and the evolution

791
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 1: into larger, more organized societies provided it with a chance

792
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 1: to escape and replicate on a mass scale. Once more so,

793
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: we always has had these sort of tendencies towards hierarchy

794
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 1: and authoritarianism programmed into our brains, and for a long

795
00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: time we fought it in these tiny societies. But once

796
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 1: we started building these larger societies, it's sort of escapes

797
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 1: and kind of runs wild. It's almost like how measles

798
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: was nearly wiped out by vaccines until enough dumb people

799
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 1: stopped vaccinating their kids that it was able to spread

800
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 1: and get a toe hold again. Thank you, Jessica Bille,

801
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 1: Thank you Jessica Bile. Some people might argue that hierarchy

802
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: and authoritarianism and Jessica Bile make for stronger and more

803
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 1: competitive societies, and that's why these forms of organizations spread

804
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: across the globe. Yeah, that's certainly an arguable point. Deborah

805
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,760
Speaker 1: Rodgers and other researchers, however, have found in their research

806
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 1: some data that would seem to argue against that point.

807
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,240
Speaker 1: Quote in a demographic simulation that ohm Car desh Pondi,

808
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 1: Marcus Feldman, and I conducted at Stanford University, California, we

809
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: found that rather than imparting advantages to the group, unequal

810
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 1: access to resources is inherently to stab realizing and greatly

811
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: raises the chance of group extinction and stable environments. This

812
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,760
Speaker 1: was true whether we modeled inequality as a multi tiered

813
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: class society or what economists call a Peretto wealth distribution,

814
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: in which as with the one percent, the rich get,

815
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: the lions share. Counterintuitively, the fact that inequality was so

816
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 1: destabilized and caused these societies to spread by creating an

817
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 1: incentive to migrate in search of further resources. The rules

818
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,720
Speaker 1: in our simulation did not allow from migration to already

819
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: occupied locations, but it was clear that this would have

820
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: happened in the real world, leading a conquest of the

821
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: more stable egalitarian societies, exactly what we see as we

822
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: look back in history. In other words, inequality did not

823
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:38,800
Speaker 1: spread from group to group because it is an inherently

824
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: better system for survival, but because it creates demographic instability,

825
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: which drives migration and conflict and leads to the cultural

826
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 1: or physical extinction of egalitarian societies. And it's interesting if

827
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,799
Speaker 1: you look into like who a lot of the Europeans

828
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: who sailed to the New World, as they called it,

829
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 1: were there were a lot of second and third and

830
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 1: fourth sons of wealthier emilies who like weren't going to

831
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 1: inherit the family wealth and so had to go make

832
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:07,280
Speaker 1: their fortune elsewhere. So like this seems like a really

833
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: strongly arguable point to me. And it also it also

834
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: feels more like this comparison that I keep making to

835
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,080
Speaker 1: a virus, because like the way virus is spread, they're

836
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 1: not viruses aren't sustainable, they're not stable. They need to

837
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 1: continually like destroy populations of of living things and need

838
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,280
Speaker 1: to spread to new populations in order to stay alive.

839
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 1: So like I think authoritarianism, comparing it to a virus,

840
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of Uh. I think it's

841
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: a useful way to look at it. Um. Yeah, yeah,

842
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: so it's it's kind of weird that, Yeah, you don't

843
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: really hear like social movements or trends ever referred to

844
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 1: as a virus. I mean, I've never heard that comparison before.

845
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,879
Speaker 1: We talk about virility a lot when we talk about ideas,

846
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think looking at authoritaryianism virally um can

847
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 1: spread much like a meme of a cat. Yeah, it does.

848
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: It spreads just like a cat mame. Yeah, fascist dictatorships

849
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: spread like a cat mat a dictatorship. Right. Yeah. So

850
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 1: uh obviously, like you know, we could try to like

851
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 1: argue at which points in history authoritarianism hit its peak.

852
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: It's probably more apt to say that it ebbed and

853
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 1: flowed in different places across distance and time, and every

854
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:31,720
Speaker 1: now and then individual societies would evolve like ancient Athens

855
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: or the Iroquois, who established, you know, cultures that were

856
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,240
Speaker 1: more egalitarian than those around them, but in a global sense,

857
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 1: strict hierarchy and authoritarian means of rule where the order

858
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 1: of the day for the majority of people across the

859
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: last several thousand years. And again I'm I'm gonna oversimplify

860
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 1: here because I'm not a historian and like this is

861
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: not a historic like like like an academic paper, but

862
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say broadly that the last

863
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 1: eight hundred years or so have seen a major push

864
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: back towards egalitarianism and against authoritarian means of control across

865
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 1: the globe. And if you're going to pick an arbitrary

866
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: start point for this, you might choose the signing of

867
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 1: the Magna Carta in June of twelve fifteen, and there

868
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 1: would be a variety of other dates that would be important,

869
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: like seventeen seventy six, uh, like eighteen sixty five, like

870
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 1: nineteen really patriotic for a second there. And my my

871
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: dates picked are very Western centric because I don't know

872
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 1: as much about like Chinese history, Japanese history. But you know,

873
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 1: I think nineteen seventeen the Russian Revolution would be another

874
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: point in that. Uh. And of course nineteen forty five

875
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 1: would be another big moment in the sort of eight

876
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: hundred year or so push back against authoritarianism. Um. And

877
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,320
Speaker 1: if we're going to keep rolling with my viral authoritarianism analogy,

878
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: we might look at the global defeat of the ACCESS

879
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:52,879
Speaker 1: in World War two is equivalent to a max backs

880
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 1: in mass vaccination campaign. Uh. And if we want to

881
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: extend the analogy even further, we could compare people like

882
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 1: Cia or actor Alan Dulas and has been shant for

883
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: authoritarian regime changes in Latin America to the anti vaxers

884
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 1: like Jessica Bial people who saw socialism. Yeah. So Jessica

885
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 1: Bill and Allan Dulas, who're the same fucking guy. Yeah damn.

886
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 1: I would read that piece on medium dot com. Thank you,

887
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 1: thank you. Medium dot com is where it would put

888
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 1: this if I weren't such a narcissist with a podcast.

889
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: Um but he's dictatorship. You must put your call. You

890
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 1: guys got to shame my meat. I'm calling hr Anderson. Yeah,

891
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: so you've got like this. Uh so. Yeah. The last

892
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 1: several decades of creeping authoritarianism in our own society have

893
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: been driven in large part by the fact that decades

894
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: of American leaders have supported dictators and strongman across places

895
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 1: like Latin America. The crisis of the Border, which provided

896
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: such fuel to the American right, has been driven largely

897
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:04,200
Speaker 1: by refugees fleeing from places like Guatemala and El Salvador. Well,

898
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 1: the US supported and trained death squads and assassinated democratically

899
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 1: elected leaders. Um you could also make a point about

900
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: our failure to intervene in Syria, all the refugees who

901
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: fled from Bashar al Assad's fascistic campaign of extermination, and

902
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 1: how that fueled the far right in Europe and in

903
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 1: the United States. Um So, the plight of those refugees,

904
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 1: in their decision to flee the safety of the US,

905
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 1: has invigorated a right wing movement that has grown stronger

906
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 1: and more dangerous over the decades, starting with KKK border

907
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 1: patrols in the nineteen seventies and ending with concentration camps

908
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 1: in Texas and Donald Trump in the White House. Um, now,

909
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 1: I'm not the only person thinking along lines similar to

910
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 1: this when I was doing my final research for the

911
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 1: War on Everyone. The audio book that I swear is

912
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: coming out soon. I just finished reading it. It's being edited. Yeah,

913
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,240
Speaker 1: it's being edited right now by the audio people. So, Daniel, Yeah,

914
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 1: it is coming out. I came across this, Hey, Daniel,

915
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 1: this It actually might be up at the time people

916
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 1: listen to this episode. I don't know. Um. I came

917
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 1: across a study of how fascists were using the internet

918
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: back in the late nineties and early two thousands to

919
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 1: keep their movement alive. The starting study was written up

920
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 1: by a researcher named Less Black, and in it he

921
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 1: cites a book called A Thousand Plateaus Capitalism and Schizophrenia

922
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,279
Speaker 1: from six Now, the book was written by a pair

923
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: of philosophers to Lose and Guitari and I don't pretend

924
00:51:23,040 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 1: to understand the overall thrust of the text because I

925
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 1: am so bad at reading political theory. But Black cites

926
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 1: a piece of that book that seems to be making

927
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:33,760
Speaker 1: a similar argument to the one I've been making, albeit

928
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 1: with a slightly different analogy. Quote delusing Guitari argue that

929
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,359
Speaker 1: part of the nature of fascism is a proliferation of

930
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,240
Speaker 1: molecular focuses in interaction which skipped from point to point

931
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 1: before beginning to resonate together. This comment might well have

932
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,799
Speaker 1: been made about the lateral connectedness found in cyberspace, rather

933
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 1: than seeing fascism and shrined in a totalitarian bureaucracy. They

934
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,320
Speaker 1: argue that fascism was and is manifest in the micro

935
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: organization of everyday life. The power of fascist culture here

936
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: is in its molecular and supple segmentarity, with flows capable

937
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 1: of suffusing every cell. What makes fascism dangerous is its

938
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: molecular or micro political power, for it is a mass

939
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 1: movement of cancerous body rather than a totalitarian organism. Yeah,

940
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: m all right, So I don't even really want to

941
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: comment on that. I think it's it's deep. Yeah, yeah, anyway,

942
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: that's what I got so far. Robert presented your worldviews

943
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:41,399
Speaker 1: very suctinct. This was like Robert's ideology on life more

944
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 1: or less Yeah, it's a fascism isn't something that's imposed

945
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 1: from the top down. It's something that bubbles up from

946
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 1: within groups of human beings. And if you're going to

947
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:54,840
Speaker 1: stop it, it requires constant vigilance, like the vigilance of say,

948
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:56,839
Speaker 1: a group of kung who makes sure to keep an

949
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 1: eye out for a young man who gets too big

950
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 1: of an idea of his own importance because it brought

951
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 1: down a fucking gazelle. And like a virus can move

952
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 1: and change and and and go away, but you can

953
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 1: come back, I mean, and you can you can basically

954
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 1: erase the metaphor at that point of like, how like

955
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 1: fascism is spreading like a virus now, because it's spreading

956
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,239
Speaker 1: like a virus in the Internet sense, to like it

957
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: is truly one and the same. I think I will. Okay,

958
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 1: So Robert, how do we how do we fix it? Yeah?

959
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 1: And uh, not hearing any answers. Well you know I didn't,

960
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 1: you know, I only had so much time to comprehensive Well,

961
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 1: you know, it does. That is a little bit of it, Sophie.

962
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,160
Speaker 1: Like one lesson we can take out of human prehistory

963
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 1: in terms of how we fight fascism is that It's

964
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,720
Speaker 1: not something we fight by voting for the right person.

965
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 1: It's something we fight on a day to day basis

966
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:55,319
Speaker 1: in our daily lives. It's something we fight not just

967
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 1: by keeping an eye out on other people, but by

968
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 1: fighting the fascists within our own cell, by fighting like

969
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 1: those authoritarian impulses and urges that we all have because

970
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: it's coated into our brain. Um, it's it's a constant

971
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 1: battle that starts at the bottom. And if it doesn't persist,

972
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 1: and if there isn't discipline at every level of society

973
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 1: to watch against it, it will come back terrifying. Okay,

974
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:23,879
Speaker 1: so the call has been coming from inside the house

975
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 1: the whole time. Call the fascism has been coming from

976
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,280
Speaker 1: inside your brain this whole time. Yeah, Okay, good gat

977
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 1: good by, bolt Cutters. It's one tool that you can

978
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 1: use against fascism, only brain out. I think that's really

979
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:42,839
Speaker 1: a good answer. Yeah, if we could just yank out

980
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 1: the judge bitch cortex from our brain, Cutters, that's you're

981
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 1: pretty close to some things. Kurt Vonnegutt was theorizing about

982
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 1: near the end of his life. There he was like,

983
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 1: if we were all just dumber, this would work so

984
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:58,480
Speaker 1: much better. Yeah, it's like it's just everyone, just us

985
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 1: to just get a light bother me. Yeah, being smart

986
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: is not worth it. I don't happen to hold to

987
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 1: that idea, but I'm willing to admit that Kurt Vonnegutt

988
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:09,480
Speaker 1: was way smarter than I will ever be, and he

989
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 1: might have been right. So it's I mean, base level.

990
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 1: I haven't revisited that phase of Kurt Kurt Vonnegut in

991
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:20,359
Speaker 1: a while, but sounds fun. But Robert, you wouldn't agree

992
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:23,800
Speaker 1: with that because you are not a judge bitch. Well,

993
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 1: I try not to be, but I will admit that

994
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 1: I think when Kurt Vonnegutt was a judge bitch, he

995
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: was right to be a judge bitch. Fair. I mean, yeah,

996
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 1: I choose your moments. I'm constantly yeah, I mean constant

997
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 1: suppression of the judge bitch within is necessary. I keep

998
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 1: her loressed up. Yeah, I keep her locked up until necessary. Yeah,

999
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 1: But there are moments where it's like, oh, there she is. There,

1000
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 1: she's coming out wearing that outfit sometimes right, and doing

1001
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 1: that superhero pose, ready to save the fucking day. Well yeah,

1002
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 1: and it's it's like she has bolk cutters, she's got

1003
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:01,040
Speaker 1: bold cutters. Yeah, they can be used for good or evil.

1004
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: Much like authoritarianism. It's not always the wrong thing like

1005
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 1: we have it. Like, it's useful in certain situations. Um.

1006
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 1: You know, if you've got well, if you've got like

1007
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 1: a wildfire, you need one person being like okay, you

1008
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 1: go here, you go here, you go here, Like this

1009
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:17,799
Speaker 1: is what we're going to try to do, like our podcast,

1010
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 1: like our podcast, or like a military unit, where to

1011
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:24,399
Speaker 1: some extent there's certain kinds of hierarchy that you want

1012
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:27,839
Speaker 1: in a military unit like our podcast, like our podcast,

1013
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 1: or like uh uh, that's that's about it. Um. I

1014
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 1: don't think it's useful nearly as often as we use it,

1015
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 1: but it's not useless, but it has to be carefully controlled.

1016
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 1: Yeah okay, yeah, so like maybe if we're going to

1017
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 1: keep having presidents, we execute every president after they finish

1018
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 1: their term of office, and that way only people who

1019
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 1: are truly selfless take the job. Now we're out in

1020
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 1: the crazy crazy town. Yeah, it was like, well, now

1021
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:04,719
Speaker 1: we're just shull. It's not the Hunger Games if you're

1022
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 1: just killing the person at the top. True true, true,

1023
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:12,320
Speaker 1: still not still not. Um, I've only seen the first

1024
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 1: one does it end well, that's right. Are the Hunger Games?

1025
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 1: A good idea for society is that the conclusion should

1026
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:22,880
Speaker 1: get a shot, should give a shot, should be hunger

1027
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 1: someome games, but instead of children, it's like members of

1028
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: the cabinet sick love it great? Oh now that would

1029
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 1: be amazing and at the end of like a presidential

1030
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 1: because like then I'd be really excited about some of

1031
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 1: the people who have been in Trump's cabinet because I

1032
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 1: would love to see Steven Miller and Steve Bannon fighting

1033
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 1: with like homemade spears over a pit of lava. Like

1034
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: it would be a blast. That would be the fucking greatest.

1035
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 1: Jared Pushner would hide the whole time, and then somehow

1036
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 1: Win would hide the whole time five ft beneath the

1037
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 1: ground and which is zombie out of just a Banka

1038
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: Trump and the Betsy Divos just throttle each other with

1039
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,480
Speaker 1: like fucking scarves or something. Yeah. That that that's fun.

1040
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 1: That's fun to think about. Reference It's almost like he's

1041
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 1: already got the graphic novel storyboarded. Yeah. I don't have

1042
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 1: more detailed solutions than that, but this is where my

1043
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 1: thinking's gone in the last eighteen months or so. Of

1044
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 1: doing this podcast. So now you all have to deal

1045
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 1: with it too. Sorry, I know I think it's good.

1046
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:36,439
Speaker 1: I think, well not the takeaways are dire. But yeah,

1047
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 1: I've never heard it put succinctly like that. Well, I

1048
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:41,960
Speaker 1: don't know if i'd call it succinctly. I've been talking

1049
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 1: for fifty nine minutes or so. But I did my best.

1050
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 1: It was only one part. Yeah, it was only one part.

1051
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 1: Only one part. Well, I would not agree to do

1052
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:57,919
Speaker 1: two parts, Jamie. Wow. Yeah, no, I was forced into

1053
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 1: doing this one part. Well, I'm glad that you were

1054
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 1: unlike too, because this is just a whole new experience

1055
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 1: of Sophie've never had were we can just make eye

1056
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 1: rolls to each other directly and then say what we're thinking.

1057
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 1: I know, can you measure if Robert was here, Oh,

1058
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 1: I'd be I'd be I rolled into a coma by

1059
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:22,720
Speaker 1: this unconscious. You would just be tied up. Yeah. We

1060
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:26,840
Speaker 1: would have gone out onto the the Poisonous spell cat

1061
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,680
Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah, the poison room. I would have cracked

1062
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 1: it open with my podcasting machete, can't Yeah, you do

1063
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 1: have a machete. That's like that has says podcasting on

1064
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: the Blade. I am wearing my throwing Bagels behind the

1065
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:45,080
Speaker 1: massa T shirt right now, so I need to get

1066
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:47,520
Speaker 1: one of those. I have one for you. Oh yeah,

1067
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:49,920
Speaker 1: I'm wearing my what if Fraser were a part of

1068
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 1: the Fantastic four T shirt today? I love what if

1069
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 1: Frasier were a part of the Fantastic Four. Well, that's

1070
00:59:55,800 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 1: the very question this T shirt explores. Everyone think about that,

1071
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 1: and also, how do we fight against the monster coated

1072
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 1: into our brains? Hitler is almost inevitable? Yeah, both of

1073
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 1: those things, Yeah, in that order. Please have have the

1074
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 1: answers on my desk by Monday. If there's a better

1075
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 1: symbol for creeping authoritarianism in the human spirit than the

1076
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 1: television show Frasier, I haven't found it. Yeah, all right, Jamie,

1077
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 1: you want to plug your plug doubles. Sure you can

1078
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:36,560
Speaker 1: listen to the Bechdel Cast every Thursday Feminist Movie podcast,

1079
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 1: or follow me on Twitter at Jamie Loft His Help,

1080
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:42,600
Speaker 1: or come see my show at Edinburgh Fringe Fest in

1081
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 1: Scotland all August. Yeah, and uh, Sophie, you want to

1082
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: plug my plug doubles because you're on the thing too

1083
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:56,120
Speaker 1: and we have the same podcast. Well, um, I didn't

1084
01:00:56,160 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 1: agree to that in my contract, but follow Robert on Twitter,

1085
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 1: I write, Okay, thank you didn't discussing. I mean, I

1086
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 1: just think we could have titled it better. Um at

1087
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 1: bastards Pod on Twitter and Instagram behind the Bastard's dot

1088
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: com for the sources for this pod t public. We

1089
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 1: have t shirts, we have totes, we have phone cases,

1090
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 1: we have um not bolt cutters but soon to be

1091
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 1: bolt cutters. We have we have, we have, we have

1092
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 1: a couple. We have a couple of new new designs

1093
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 1: up there, so check it out. Good stuff and they

1094
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 1: have sales like all the time. Yeah, and you can

1095
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 1: find Sophie on Twitter at at Bastard's pod because she

1096
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:45,920
Speaker 1: runs the Twitter So if you want to tell her

1097
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 1: to be less or more mean to me, you can

1098
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 1: let her know the direct channel. But in reality, don't

1099
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:58,760
Speaker 1: do that. Don't do that. Uh and but do yeah,

1100
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:02,400
Speaker 1: maybe get some bolt cutters, um. Certainly keep an eye

1101
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 1: out for creeping authoritarianism in your own daily life and

1102
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:08,640
Speaker 1: try to shame some meat on your way home. If

1103
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:11,480
Speaker 1: you'd like to humble Robert, please find me on Instagram

1104
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 1: at so underscore right Underscore up Underscore Sunshine and let

1105
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 1: me know your opinions on Robert, so I can tell

1106
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:20,280
Speaker 1: it to him to its face and make sure that's

1107
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 1: great that he doesn't know the size of his I

1108
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 1: don't want to say meat because I don't instagram and

1109
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 1: get or shame shame. Let's go shame, Let's go shame.

1110
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 1: I don't want to say I don't like I just

1111
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,840
Speaker 1: don't enjoy the phrase size of meat in general. No,

1112
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 1: I think that a meat shaming T shirt is called

1113
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:44,400
Speaker 1: for at this point. Yeah, yeah, there was serious Robert

1114
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 1: influences here. The meat shaming story really is? That is

1115
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 1: gonna so Texas. It's fucking amazing. Yeah. Yeah, one of

1116
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 1: those things I read a while back and has stuck

1117
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 1: with me ever since. They should turn it into a

1118
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 1: children's book. They should the shame of the meat with uh,

1119
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 1: what's that? What's that? Curious chimpanzee? He seems like the

1120
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 1: right character for that. Yeah, are you referring to George? Yeah, George,

1121
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:13,440
Speaker 1: if you'd like to keep my meat big, please message

1122
01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 1: me and tell me how cute my dog is there.

1123
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 1: All right, Well, this has been a rambling enough exit

1124
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 1: the episodes done, go yeah, buy it? I love you.