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Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Elizabeth Dutton, how's it going. I'm pretty good. I've

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Speaker 2: been waiting for you. Oh yeah, it's fine, but it's fine, Elizabeth.

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Speaker 3: Okay, whatever, I wasn't waiting blood. You know what's ridiculous?

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Speaker 2: I do? Okay? Can I tell you?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I'd love it before Bruce Willis took the role. Bruce

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Speaker 2: Willis out of guy. Lots of other people were offered

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Speaker 2: this part. Arnold Schwarzenegger, he was offered it. He turned

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Speaker 2: it down. Why because he wanted to get into comedy.

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth Sylvester Stallone he turned it down. Clint Eastwood, El Gibson,

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Speaker 2: James Kahn turned it down, Richard Gear turned it down. Finally,

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Speaker 2: the role was offered to Frank Sinatra. He also turned

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Speaker 2: it down. Now that actually made the most sense, even

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Speaker 2: though Frank was in his seventies. Now, why did it

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Speaker 2: make sense to offer a role to Frank sinatchra before

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Speaker 2: Bruce Willis and that role turned out to be die Hard?

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Speaker 3: That was gonna say, That's all I could think when

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Speaker 3: die Hard?

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Speaker 2: Wow, Yes, the role Diehard originally was going to Frank

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Speaker 2: Sinatra was better fit. And I honestly, he can tell you.

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Speaker 2: There's a good reason. Diehard is based on Roderick Thorpe's

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Speaker 2: novel Nothing Lasts Forever. In that novel, retired detective Joe

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Speaker 2: Leland takes on terrorists in the headquarters of the Claxon

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Speaker 2: Oil Corporation on Christmas e. Nothing Last Forever was the

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Speaker 2: sequel to Thorpe's nineteen sixty six novel The Detective. Now,

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Speaker 2: if you know your Sinatra filmography, then you know that

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Speaker 2: that book was also adapted into a movie of the

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Speaker 2: same name, and it came out first obviously in nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty eight. The Detective featured joe Leland as the officer

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Speaker 2: investigating a supposed suicide, and joe Leland was played by

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Speaker 2: Frank Sinatra.

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Speaker 4: One of the.

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Speaker 2: Biggest box office hits of Sinatra's whole career was The Detective.

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Speaker 2: It was one of the highest gropasing movies in nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty Ye you ever heard, I know a lot of

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Speaker 2: people haven't. I've watched it. It's actually kind of enjoyable,

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Speaker 2: really gritty. Yeah. So if Sinatra had returned to the

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Speaker 2: role of John McClain, which they would have still called

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Speaker 2: John Leland, Diehard would have been a sequel.

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Speaker 3: Wow, you know whatdiculous? It's ridiculous. Do you want to

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Speaker 3: know what else is ridiculous?

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Speaker 2: Dude?

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Speaker 3: Do I highbrow Kleptomania? Oh, this is ridiculous Crime a

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Speaker 3: podcast about absurd and outrageous capers, heists, and cons. It's

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Speaker 3: always ninety nine percent murder free and one hundred percent ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: You heard that. How many books do you think you owned?

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Speaker 4: Zarin Books?

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Speaker 2: Jeez?

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Speaker 4: A lot?

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Speaker 2: Like I have a pretty good library. I don't even

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Speaker 2: have all my books with me, like in my living space,

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Speaker 2: so I would thousands.

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Speaker 3: Really. Yeah, My mom has a library in her house

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Speaker 3: and then they are also well they are like bookcases

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Speaker 3: in all the other rooms, so I think her total

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Speaker 3: has to be well north of a thousand.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, he is like, yeah, it's a ten thousand

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Speaker 2: lot of books, a lot of books, stack, a lot

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Speaker 2: of novels and stuff. Real quick.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well, I like I have bookcases and then

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Speaker 3: I have books stacked on the ground in my in

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Speaker 3: my office. And I moved to ebooks because storage was

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Speaker 3: becoming an issue. And then I moved to audio books

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Speaker 3: because I'm an old lady. I'm really enjoying it, like

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Speaker 3: in the garden.

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Speaker 2: Okay, anyway, some old radio shows. I haven't even gotten

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Speaker 2: audiobooks yet.

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Speaker 3: I'm feeling the audiobooks right now. But speaking of books, Yes,

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Speaker 3: what would you say are your top five books? Like,

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Speaker 3: in no particular order. I know it's a tough one,

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Speaker 3: like top five, you know, top five bands or songs.

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Speaker 3: That's really hard. You know, we should we should just

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Speaker 3: have an episode that's us listing our top fives of

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Speaker 3: stuff and then accusing each other of the crime of neglecting.

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Speaker 3: That's my indulgence. But anyway, what would you just, off

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Speaker 3: the top of your head? Top five books.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna go top five, not the top five I

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Speaker 2: think that are best. I'm gonna go with most formative,

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Speaker 2: because I think that's easier for me to exactly. Okay,

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Speaker 2: Number one the Bible according to Mark Twain, Okay, the

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Speaker 2: full title.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And number two Lynston Hughes, The Big Cu. Number three

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Speaker 2: that's his auto that's his autobiography or one of his

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Speaker 2: books is autobiographical. Number three, The Book of Laughter and

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Speaker 2: Forgetting Wlankandera. I really liked that one Fear of Flying

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Speaker 2: Erica Jong because of when I read it, it meant a

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Speaker 2: lot to me, and I love Tropica Cancer by Henry Miller,

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Speaker 2: so I put those kind of together. But if I

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Speaker 2: said Tropic Cancer Hendry Miller is.

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Speaker 3: Just like, really, you were perfect?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly once again, So I'm gonna go with the

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Speaker 2: zipliss f of Erica Jeong on this one instead, So

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Speaker 2: Fear of Flying and then lastly, if I'm being honest,

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Speaker 2: I would say Fear of Fear and Loathing Las Vegas.

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Speaker 2: I read it one day in a park and it

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Speaker 2: was an amazing novel. And I was really young. I

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Speaker 2: was in college, and of course it was the exact

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Speaker 2: perfect time to read a book like that. I was

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Speaker 2: blown away by the use of the language to tell

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Speaker 2: you the storytelling. I mean, so, I thought that was

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Speaker 2: a really powerful book. And I had read other stuff

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Speaker 2: his prior to it. Yeah, I thought that one was

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Speaker 2: just really great and I read it all one sitting,

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Speaker 2: which is I recommend I read to Dartha like that.

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Speaker 3: It's really weird formative.

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Speaker 2: Also, your book Driftwood coming in at U number five

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Speaker 2: is with an asterisk because I feel like you'd be like, no,

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Speaker 2: you can't say that your book drift Woods.

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Speaker 3: Oh, thank you?

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Speaker 2: What? Top five?

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Speaker 3: That's good? Here are my top five. Thank you for asking.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, what are your no particular tell me what

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Speaker 3: Joan Didion's Run River, or if I were to go

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Speaker 3: like nonfiction slouching towards both the Him one hundred Years

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Speaker 3: of Solitude, Gabriel because Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath, or maybe

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Speaker 3: like Travels with Charlie or with cortes Ian Rankins, Knots

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Speaker 3: and Crosses. I don't know that that's the first Inspector

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Speaker 3: Rebis novel.

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Speaker 2: You told me about Inspector I like, I want to

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Speaker 2: check this.

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Speaker 3: And then The Heart is a Lonely Hunter by Carson

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Speaker 3: I think would be like some of these I love

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Speaker 3: for the craft of them, and then some I love

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Speaker 3: because they remind me of the place and time in

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Speaker 3: my life. When I read them, like you were.

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Speaker 2: To formative books, it stayed with me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And so you know, like any like if

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Speaker 3: I would have like a song or a movie or

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Speaker 3: band list, it's shifting sands, you know. It's sort of

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Speaker 3: like in this what you come up with off the

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Speaker 3: top of your head. Listen, rude dudes, tell us your

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Speaker 3: current five top current top five books in the comments

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Speaker 3: on Instagram.

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Speaker 2: Ridiculous crime book clubs.

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Speaker 3: Really eager to see what people love seriously, So yeah,

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Speaker 3: go to Instagram and put your top five in the comments.

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Speaker 3: So anyway, books, I have a ton of books, but

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Speaker 3: I don't have any rare ones. I have like the

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Speaker 3: giant Old Family Bible, but like it's not worth money

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Speaker 3: in the real world.

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Speaker 2: You don't have like a first printing of the de

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Speaker 2: camera On.

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Speaker 3: No, just no, I have. I have assigned Anne LaMotte

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Speaker 3: bird by bird, and she told me she doesn't sign books,

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Speaker 3: but I was like, I was able to browbeat her

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Speaker 3: in the signing.

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Speaker 4: Really.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's like the most you know, high level

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Speaker 3: I have. Do you have any rare books? And then

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Speaker 3: where are they located in your house? And how far

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Speaker 3: are you from the nearest rare bookstealer. I'm just just curious.

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Speaker 2: Just curious. Now. Actually, I do have some books that

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Speaker 2: are worth something. A couple of them are like weird

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Speaker 2: aesoteric books. I've got some really old Freemason books that

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Speaker 2: a friend of mine gave me that are like from

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Speaker 2: the nineteenth century, wow, that are definitely worth something. I

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Speaker 2: have some American history books that are some first printings

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Speaker 2: that are like written by people from American history. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to tell you about where they are

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Speaker 2: because I don't trust you. Call me a freak.

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Speaker 3: Well, there are people who dedicate their lives to rare books.

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Speaker 2: And well some do you do you have any rare books?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 3: I just told you you have none, none.

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Speaker 2: Zero, zero, second time.

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Speaker 3: And LaMotte bird by Bird and then I have a

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Speaker 3: gigantic old family bible that has like deeds in like

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Speaker 3: real estate letters from the gold Rush era. That's all

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Speaker 3: I have. But so people, there are people who dedicate

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Speaker 3: their lives oh their books. Some are like they collect.

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Speaker 3: Some are there to preserve. They really just want to

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Speaker 3: preserve them, the first editions and such and zaren you

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Speaker 3: know what happens when there are valuable objects that are

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Speaker 3: portable and sold with little or no paperwork. Yes, crime, yes,

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Speaker 3: exactly crime. Enter John Charles guilty. My dude was born

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Speaker 3: in Modesto, California.

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Speaker 4: I know where that is.

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Speaker 3: In nineteen sixty eight.

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Speaker 2: I'm wearing a Modesto Nuts minor league baseball cap. Right.

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Speaker 3: Their minor league team is called the Nuts, and you

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Speaker 3: have a hat and you're wearing it. Go Nuts, Go Nuts.

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Speaker 3: It's the craziest looking at Anyway, I've mentioned Modesto briefly before,

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Speaker 3: and you know you laughed at it. But I think

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Speaker 3: it's a I think it's a great Central Valley.

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Speaker 4: Oh.

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Speaker 2: No, I picked because I'm from Davis, so I'm out

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Speaker 2: of the Central Valley, and therefore I look down on

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Speaker 2: Stockton in California.

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Speaker 3: Central Valley feeds the world, and you gotta respect, please,

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Speaker 3: you gotta give respect. Modesto ninety miles east of San Francisco.

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Speaker 3: It's like smack dab in the middle of robust farmland.

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Speaker 2: San Franisco's on your way to the Gold Country.

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Speaker 3: Do you know how the city got its name, by

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Speaker 3: the way, Modesto.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for being a very demure and modest environ Well.

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Speaker 3: It started out as a stop on the railroad that

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Speaker 3: connected Sacramento to Los Angeles. Yeah, Central Pacific. Yeah, eighteen

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Speaker 3: seventies when it was created. One of the founders of

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Speaker 3: the railroad company, Mark Hopkins, he wanted to name it

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Speaker 3: after his associate, a banker named William Ralston, and yeah,

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Speaker 3: Ralston told him to pick something else, don't call it Ralston.

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Speaker 3: And then a railroad employee overheard this conversation and then

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Speaker 3: said really loudly in Spanish that Ralston was a modest man,

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Speaker 3: and so the other founder of the company, Charles Crocker,

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Speaker 3: another big he decided to call the place modest though,

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Speaker 3: in honor of Ralston's Yeah, exactly, the modest one. Moestah,

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Speaker 3: so guilty Modesto's own. I'm not sure if you would

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Speaker 3: call him modest. Well, judge, you'll judge for yourself when.

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Speaker 2: You try not to judge Elizabeth just watching judging.

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Speaker 3: When he was a little kid, he started showing his

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Speaker 3: true colors, you know, as we all do. But his

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Speaker 3: true color was a hue called kleptomenia.

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Speaker 2: Oh.

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Speaker 3: Yes, he could not The kid could not stop stealing.

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Speaker 2: He rant color.

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Speaker 3: When he was nine, he stole a baseball catcher's mitt.

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Speaker 3: He got it home and he realized the mitt was

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Speaker 3: for left handed people and he's right handed. Ramp So

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Speaker 3: where did he get these thieving ways, you know, that's

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Speaker 3: the big question. Well, his parents, they wound up helping

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Speaker 3: him out with that in later years. So I think

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Speaker 3: it was like a nature nurture even balance for this

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Speaker 3: modesto nut Gilkey. He doesn't just love to steal. He

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Speaker 3: has other passions like reading. Oh, he fell in love

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Speaker 3: with reading. Thanks to Richie Rich comic books.

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Speaker 2: Hey got to start somewhere. That's a good place.

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Speaker 3: The Richie Rich character who's called the poor little rich Boy,

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Speaker 3: only child of super wealthy parents, girl's richest kid. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you just want to like smack him. He was so

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Speaker 3: rich that, like his middle name was a dollar sign,

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Speaker 3: so gross, gold toilets all around. Did you ever get

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Speaker 3: into Richie Rich?

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Speaker 2: Look at me? Do you think I wanted to read

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Speaker 2: a Little Rich Boy? No, I wanted.

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Speaker 3: He never did it for me.

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Speaker 2: My sister liked Actually, so they were in the house.

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Speaker 3: I saw, okay, And I told you I had this

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Speaker 3: weird thing where like I felt I could like probably

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Speaker 3: beat him up, and I didn't respect that.

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Speaker 2: I barely Casper the ghost. I mean, I can tolerate

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Speaker 2: that kind of a kid like these, you know, and

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Speaker 2: also like a Heathcliff another one. I'm like, I don't know, Garfield,

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Speaker 2: what is this?

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Speaker 3: So?

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Speaker 4: Uh?

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Speaker 3: You know what? When I was a kid, I had

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Speaker 3: those Garfield books. I can remember like laughing hysterically at them,

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Speaker 3: and then I've looked at them since and.

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Speaker 2: Being like what my parents worried about me?

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Speaker 3: I'm sure at the age of five, what was I on.

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Speaker 2: Well, at least we've got two kids, because this one

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Speaker 2: little that's not right.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So for both of us, and we are speaking,

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to just make my mom proud. So Richie

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Speaker 3: rich comic books. They sent John Charles Guilty into a

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Speaker 3: fantasy world of wealth and instant gratification. And he was

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Speaker 3: there for it. He was living for it.

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Speaker 2: It was his Calvin and Hobbes.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so or bloom County County. So you know you

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Speaker 3: love reading, you love books, you love stealing stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yes, talking about me or friends.

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Speaker 3: We have a mashup on our hands. So in nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety seven, Guilty was twenty nine years old. He went

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Speaker 3: to his first ever antiquarian book fair, Zarin, Where was

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Speaker 3: your first antiquarian book fair?

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth? I'm so pleased to you ask me this question.

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Speaker 2: It's lying there in the promise of the future before

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Speaker 2: me somewhere. I can't quite see it. It's not come

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Speaker 2: into view, but I can feel it approaching an antiquary coming.

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Speaker 2: Do you see it? Are you going to bring it

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Speaker 2: to me?

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Speaker 3: I think so, because it would be my first antiquarian.

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Speaker 2: Did dawn break on the horizon?

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Speaker 3: I bet you'd be cool. So in his first antiquarian

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Speaker 3: book fair, he bought three tomes yes, a first edition

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Speaker 3: of The Dunewich Horror by H. P. Lovecraft, Rosemary's Baby

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Speaker 3: over eleven, and seven Gothic Tales by Isaac Dennison.

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Speaker 2: Likes them dark tails.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a spooky boy. And then you know, he

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Speaker 3: and the vendors, they're charmed by this whole thing. They're

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Speaker 3: just having a great time until the vendors realized that

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Speaker 3: he had paid for all three of them with bad

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Speaker 3: checks and maxed out credit cards. Oops ooopsies. To quote Sophocles,

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Speaker 3: profit is sweet, even if it comes from deception. Then,

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Speaker 3: and to quote Homer, so Gilki he had. He had

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Speaker 3: a real job. Sometimes. He got a holiday temp job

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Speaker 3: at Saxsmith Avenue department store in San Francisco. He was

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Speaker 3: the perfect employee. Everyone loved him. He even got a promotion,

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Speaker 3: which I didn't think was possible for holiday temp work.

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Speaker 3: But what have you. Maybe they promoted him to a

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Speaker 3: full time gig. Either way, he was working. While he

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Speaker 3: was working, what do you mean, Elizabeth, What do you mean, Elizabeth?

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Speaker 3: Great question, Dave. So he was spreading holiday cheer and

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Speaker 3: collecting credit card numbers oh.

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Speaker 2: I love doing that. Hundreds of great way to holiday.

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Speaker 3: He would record a credit card number and then wait

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Speaker 3: a month before using it, which is smart. Yeah, No

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Speaker 3: one suspects that the information was lifted at Sacks. You know,

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00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,360
Speaker 3: could be anywhere after a month. And I figure, if

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Speaker 3: you're shopping at SAX in the holiday season, you're putting

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Speaker 3: some miles on that card. The plastic is getting put

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00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:16,080
Speaker 3: through the paces to melting exactly. That back and forth

305
00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,760
Speaker 3: teaching is that a lot of friction. So once he

306
00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:21,520
Speaker 3: had the card and enough time had passed, he would strike.

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00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,440
Speaker 3: He'd hit up a payphone in a hotel lobby and

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00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,080
Speaker 3: from there he'd place book orders at rare booksellers and

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00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:29,920
Speaker 3: he'd either pick up the book and say that he

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00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:31,880
Speaker 3: was just a friend doing it as a favor for

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Speaker 3: the buyer, or he'd have his dad go pick it up.

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Speaker 3: Oh wow, Yeah, his dad was all about this.

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Speaker 2: They did teach him the life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah. His dad loved criming. So but I

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Speaker 3: don't know if his dad, like I think that Guilkey

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00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,880
Speaker 3: brought his dad into criming. But you have to have

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Speaker 3: some element at home if you can.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or at least you know, you lean that way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so Gilkey and his dad. They researched the Modern

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Speaker 3: Library's list of one hundred best novels looking for potential

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Speaker 3: high value targets. So if you want books that are

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00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,360
Speaker 3: or something, they have to have credibility with the people.

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00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,320
Speaker 3: So guilty steps were impressive. Autograph copies of Mayor of

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Speaker 3: Casterbridge by Thomas Hardy, an Invisible and an autograph copy

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Speaker 3: of Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison. Huh. A first edition

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Speaker 3: of the Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck, which was like,

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Speaker 3: oh my god, unipper O Sarah, founder of the California Missions.

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Speaker 3: Another one of.

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Speaker 2: Those find edition.

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Speaker 3: Just cursed. First editions of Jack Kerouac's On the Road Tennessee,

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Speaker 3: Williams the street Car Named Desire, Kay Thompson's Elouise in Paris,

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Speaker 3: and Mark Twain's Life on the Mississippi first edition. He

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Speaker 3: was racking him up.

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Speaker 2: He's also going for all big names.

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Speaker 3: He was, though, about to cross pads with another character

336
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Speaker 3: in this tale, a white hat on the horizon, ready

337
00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:52,120
Speaker 3: to take down such a vile thief, Ken Sanders, a

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Speaker 3: man named Ken Sanders.

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Speaker 2: Future Kentucky chicken owner, Yeah exactly, and Colonel in the army.

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Speaker 3: Dude was born in nineteen fifty one to some lapsed

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Speaker 3: Mormons in Salt Lake City, Utah, and early on he

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Speaker 3: decided the best way to approach religion was to quote

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Speaker 3: stay the hell away from it. Yes, head, So, Ken

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Speaker 3: Sanders is more than a non Mormon. Though he's a

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Speaker 3: book dealer. He's also the head of security for the

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Speaker 3: Antiquary and Booksellers Association of America a BAA A BAH.

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Speaker 3: Another thing about Ken Sanders, he's an amateur detective, a

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Speaker 3: self appointed quote biblio Dick.

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Speaker 4: Yes that I.

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Speaker 3: Cannot stress how much I love this, the whole thing.

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00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,920
Speaker 3: I'm savoring all the details, so biblio Dick. Sanders. He

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00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,240
Speaker 3: noticed a trend. He heard about more and more book

353
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,080
Speaker 3: dealers who'd been the victim of bounce checks, fraudulent credit

354
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,040
Speaker 3: card charges. Dealers. You know, they report thefts to the

355
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,240
Speaker 3: ABAA A BAA in what are called pink sheets, and

356
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,560
Speaker 3: they're piling up. So when when he notified the police

357
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,360
Speaker 3: of this pattern he was seeing, they just did not care.

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Speaker 2: Whatever.

359
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,280
Speaker 3: Nerds poured a keg on him and like push him

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Speaker 3: into a locker.

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00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,040
Speaker 2: I could, biblio Dick, because it sounds like something Vincent

362
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,920
Speaker 2: Price would play like this really confident nerd.

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Speaker 3: You just would Would the biblio dick be dissuaded?

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00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:08,520
Speaker 4: Yeah?

365
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,400
Speaker 2: I gotta know, are you I doubt it?

366
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,520
Speaker 3: Are you pickling kidding me? So Sanders he sounded the alarm.

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00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,360
Speaker 3: He let other book dealers know about the rash of thefts,

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Speaker 3: and he said, most dealers in rare books are quote

369
00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,480
Speaker 3: a very small mom and pop operation, So losing five

370
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,760
Speaker 3: thousand dollars book is pretty serious adverse economic impact.

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00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:27,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's huge rrect Yeah.

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Speaker 3: You can't have that. So the biblio dick he took action.

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Speaker 2: Oh so he got to like not to shoe leather

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Speaker 2: but book leather.

375
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Speaker 3: Right, he just bounded on up. So Sanders he developed

376
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,400
Speaker 3: an online system to track thefts, and he also came

377
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,520
Speaker 3: up with a way to get the theft notifications to

378
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,520
Speaker 3: other booksellers as quickly as possible, less smart so no

379
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,560
Speaker 3: more pink sheet filing stacking up nineties baby. So, with

380
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,879
Speaker 3: his data set established, he saw a pattern. There was

381
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,520
Speaker 3: one thief who worked pretty much only on the West coast,

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00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,480
Speaker 3: using stolen credit cards, and the books were later picked

383
00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:59,720
Speaker 3: up by a quote friend. But there was a curious

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00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,480
Speaker 3: detas tail in this. The books never resurfaced on any

385
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,800
Speaker 3: market for resale, never came up. Let's take a break.

386
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,680
Speaker 3: When we come back, we'll continue this developing Guilty Biblio

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Speaker 3: Dick Cat and Mouse game.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Hello was.

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Speaker 2: Aaron, Hello Elizabeth. We're talking biblio dis.

390
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:43,440
Speaker 3: Biblio Dick Modesto's own Charles John, Charles Gilkey Utah's finest

391
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,720
Speaker 3: ken Biblio Dick Sanders. I just love saying.

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Speaker 2: It's your heart out Montana.

393
00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,480
Speaker 3: Books are important to both of these fellas, and so

394
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,320
Speaker 3: let's look at Sanders' backstory. His love of books and

395
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,280
Speaker 3: books selling started at a young age, just like Gilkey.

396
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,600
Speaker 3: It started with comic books. He'd sell comic books to

397
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:05,240
Speaker 3: his pals in grade school. His favorite character not Richie

398
00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:10,840
Speaker 3: Rich spider Man, like it, Gordon spider Man, dds spider Man.

399
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:12,320
Speaker 2: I love the crime fighting dentist.

400
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,880
Speaker 3: Sanders explained quote he had powers, but he was messed up.

401
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,360
Speaker 3: What awkward kid wouldn't be attracted to him? God bless My.

402
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,359
Speaker 2: Best friend of was a huge Spider Man. J Charlesworth

403
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:24,320
Speaker 2: loved the Spider Man.

404
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:24,640
Speaker 3: Nice.

405
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:26,400
Speaker 2: I know so much about him just from our bike

406
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:27,600
Speaker 2: riding conversations.

407
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:32,680
Speaker 3: So this guy biblio Dick. His grandparents would take him

408
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:37,120
Speaker 3: to Bertrand Smith's Acres of Books. You ever heard of Acres? Yeah,

409
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,320
Speaker 3: it was a huge independent bookstore in Long Beach, California.

410
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,439
Speaker 3: It's no longer, but at the time it was the

411
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,439
Speaker 3: largest and oldest family owned secondhand bookstore in California. It

412
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,480
Speaker 3: had more than a million books in stock. Yeah, it

413
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,040
Speaker 3: sounds like heaven and it was for Sanders. The future

414
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,320
Speaker 3: Biblio Dick would talk to the owner Bertrand Smith himself

415
00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,520
Speaker 3: about Edgar Allan Poe, Maxfield Parrish, Lewis Carroll, which I

416
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,399
Speaker 3: love Maxfield Parish art. It's cheesy, but I love it.

417
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:06,679
Speaker 3: I love a lot of things.

418
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love a lot of cheesy.

419
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:09,600
Speaker 3: So what do you always say?

420
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 2: What everybody corny?

421
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,440
Speaker 3: Everybody corny? When you embrace that, yeah, it's all okay.

422
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, once you realize you hang out, he probably surprised.

423
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,119
Speaker 2: You're like, oh, man, I was hanging out these people

424
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:19,880
Speaker 2: I thought were whatever, cool, tough with it, and they're

425
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 2: like they were just because you know why I hung

426
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,639
Speaker 2: out with everybody? Everybody corny?

427
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:28,600
Speaker 3: Yeah exactly, So the biblio Dick he corny too. Smith,

428
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,199
Speaker 3: the owner of the bookstore. He was impressed by the

429
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,120
Speaker 3: boy's curiosity, so he would let him into the rare

430
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 3: book room at the store, and that's where Sanders got

431
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:41,600
Speaker 3: to see first hand stuff like first edition Edgar Allan Poe,

432
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:45,679
Speaker 3: the Rate. And so this is how he recalled it, quote,

433
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,440
Speaker 3: I have always been a bookseller. I created Cosmic Aeroplane

434
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,320
Speaker 3: Books out of Steve Jones's old hippie head shop in

435
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,200
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy five, founded my own publishing company, Dream Garden

436
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,120
Speaker 3: Press in nineteen eighty and I've been running Ken Sanders

437
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 3: Rare Bookstown Salt Lake City for the past twenty five years.

438
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 3: My dad joked that when my mom gave birth to me,

439
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 3: I was clutching a book. It's the only world I

440
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 3: ever wished to know. Wow, Yeah, I love this guy.

441
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:11,040
Speaker 2: Cool.

442
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,199
Speaker 3: So you take that love of books and then a

443
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 3: sense of justice and you get biblio Dick.

444
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that that little bit of spider Man. I

445
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 2: can do this, Yes, example don't expect me to, but

446
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:21,679
Speaker 2: I can do this.

447
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 3: So this is how he said quote. I would certainly

448
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,040
Speaker 3: be the last person to deny that I'm obsessed with books.

449
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 3: If you want to say I'm obsessed with book thieves

450
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,440
Speaker 3: as well. I probably wouldn't argue that point either.

451
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:32,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, fair point.

452
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,679
Speaker 3: So one time Sanders chased a book thief on foot

453
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,200
Speaker 3: and then smashed their car window as they were attempting

454
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 3: to drive away. Like he does not play, Ye, Biblio

455
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:42,120
Speaker 3: Dick does not play.

456
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,119
Speaker 2: He's reminding me more and more of my friend exactly.

457
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,879
Speaker 3: Sanders, driven by the love of books, justice detecting, he

458
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,680
Speaker 3: coordinated a sting. Oh yes, so January twenty ninth, two

459
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:54,920
Speaker 3: thousand and three. Gilky's now thirty four years old.

460
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,639
Speaker 2: He got heel like he would bring in furries to

461
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,359
Speaker 2: help him, Like you now, I like this guy. Do

462
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 2: you see the furries who did like the hacking recently,

463
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 2: there's like a team of furries who've been out there

464
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 2: like hacking all these like spaces like then, like shutting

465
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 2: things down and it doesn't matter.

466
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 3: They go, they put on a furry costume, like a costume.

467
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like amateur superhero furries. So there, their superhero

468
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:17,040
Speaker 2: costume is a furry.

469
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 3: They just sweat it up.

470
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, smells bad exactly. But I imagine like that

471
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:24,440
Speaker 2: would be his kind of friends. You know, he could

472
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 2: like call a friend, his friend shows up and like

473
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 2: he's driving over to furry costume in a Honda Civic.

474
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,679
Speaker 3: See. I didn't connect him to the furries, but that

475
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 3: same sense of like righteousness, like and like interest your

476
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 3: own way. Yeah, okay, I'll give it to you. So guilty.

477
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 3: Thirty four years old. January of two thousand and three,

478
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,360
Speaker 3: he got on the phone and he called a rare

479
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:50,360
Speaker 3: bookstore in Santa se California, San is So he ordered

480
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 3: up a rare edition of the Grapes of Wrath by

481
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 3: John Steinbeck, six thousand dollars out the door. So guys like, great,

482
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 3: can I get your credit card numbers? Like sure, it's one, two,

483
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 3: three for jan five, Potato six. Cool. Like what are

484
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 3: you going to pick this book up, mister page r

485
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 3: Bookington And he's like, oh, you know what, ship it

486
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 3: to my hotel in Palo Alto. It's like San Jose

487
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 3: and Palo Alto aren't that far apart. Palo Alto is

488
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,360
Speaker 3: a lovely town that's been ruined by Facebook. Another tech nonsense.

489
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 3: That's another crime for another time. So ship it to

490
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 3: Palo Alto, he says. Little does he know the bookstore

491
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 3: in santase was working with Sanders the Biblio Dick. So

492
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 3: as soon as they got the call and it matched

493
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 3: all the other Hanky patterns, they alerted him and Biblio

494
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 3: Dick went right to the cops. That credit card number

495
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 3: they ran it stolen, So the cops they go to

496
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 3: the hotel and they wait and Guilkey he showed up

497
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,880
Speaker 3: and the police nabbed him. He told him, dude, I'm

498
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 3: nothing but a transient, a mere drifter. Really yeah, yeah, no,

499
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 3: I just made that up.

500
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 2: I am nothing but a mere drifter.

501
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 3: I'm going to go to where there's like police activity

502
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 3: and just walk up to them and be like, I

503
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 3: am nothing. I am a mere transiend I'm mere drifter.

504
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 2: I want you to promise me that you've ever see

505
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 2: news cameras ever walk up and act like you saw

506
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 2: whatever the crime was, and start giving an impromptu interview

507
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 2: on camera.

508
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 3: Now, my grandfather, oh I want for my birthday, Elizabeth,

509
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 3: did you doing a on camera interview as a character.

510
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 3: My grandfather, when I was growing up, he would call

511
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 3: us at the house and be like, you gotta watch

512
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 3: Channel seven six o'clock news, and he's like, just watch

513
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 3: because he would see them doing like in San Francisco

514
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 3: he'd be you know, they'd be filming something like that,

515
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 3: and he would walk back and forth in the background. Yeah,

516
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 3: And we just watched him walk back and forth, back

517
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 3: and forth, and he'd be like, did you see me?

518
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 3: I'm like totally grand book. That's awesome anyway.

519
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 2: See, you got a family tradition double I do.

520
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 3: So I'm a I'm a TRANSI and the moondrifter h

521
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 3: And he's like, someone paid me twenty bucks to just

522
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 3: pick up a book. I don't know what it's about,

523
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 3: but I'll take twenty bucks.

524
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 2: Sure.

525
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 3: So the police let him go, but then they followed

526
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 3: him to where he said the exchange point was going

527
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 3: to be, you know, the like I'm supposed to pick

528
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:02,679
Speaker 3: up this book and take it over here to this

529
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 3: Wiener Schnitzel or whatever. No one shows up, so they

530
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 3: arrest him. He gets booked for credit card fraud and

531
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 3: grand theft. And because of this, a search warrant was

532
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 3: issued for his apartment on Treasure Island in San Francisco Bay.

533
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 2: And where is that, Elizabeth.

534
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 3: It's a fake island. It's landfill. It's a fake island.

535
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 3: It was built for the nineteen thirty nine Golden Gate

536
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 3: International exposition, the World's Fair. It's in the middle. It's

537
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 3: at the midpoint of the Bay Bridge that connects San

538
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 3: Francisco to its better half. Oakland t I as we

539
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 3: call it, or as I call it, or as no

540
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 3: one calls it. It's attached to a real island. You're

541
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 3: a buena. It was a military base top Island, Traysure,

542
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 3: I call it Treysure Island. It was a giant film

543
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,360
Speaker 3: stage at one point. Right now it's been developed out

544
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 3: with housing and little dude had an apartment there. So

545
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 3: when the cops get into his place, he.

546
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: Lived in the middle of a bridge on a fake

547
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 2: If you have to take a bridge to leave house

548
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: in either.

549
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 3: Direction, whatever you're going to do.

550
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:02,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you want to go east, you gotta take

551
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 2: the bridge twice.

552
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 3: Yep, exactly. So they go in and they find twenty

553
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 3: six confirmed stolen rare books, and then they found way

554
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 3: more rare books that they thought are likely stolen, but

555
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 3: they didn't have evidence for those, so they you know,

556
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 3: left and b where Jesus flaying him. But they got

557
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 3: the twenty six that were like, okay, these were actually

558
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 3: reported stolen, so guilty. He told the police that he

559
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 3: was unemployed, and he had no place of residence, which

560
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 3: is surprising since they were to his apartment.

561
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: Since they're in his house.

562
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 3: And then he threw another supreods all your stuff, you

563
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 3: have a house, so like queen for a day. So

564
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 3: he posted bail for fifteen thousand dollars and so where okay,

565
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 3: where'd you get that? Then off he goes, Yeah, off

566
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 3: he goes. So the cops they keep their fingers crossed

567
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 3: that he's going to show up for his hearing scheduled

568
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 3: for February eighteenth, two thousand and three.

569
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 2: I'm going to take a flyer and say he did not.

570
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, he did not. He did not. So we have

571
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 3: we have this fantastic tension with Gilkey the Fraudster book

572
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 3: thief and Sanders the Unstoppable biblio dick. Oh yes, I

573
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 3: think we need to add a new character up the

574
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 3: action of attention. Can I give you Alison Hoover Bartlett.

575
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 3: I know Bartlett. She's a journalist. She wrote a book

576
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 3: called The Man Who Loved Books Too Much. Yeah, she

577
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 3: saw this crazy thing playing out and she not only

578
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 3: wrote about it but inserted herself into the story too.

579
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 2: Joists Oh god.

580
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, Bartlett said quote, we were all tenacious hunters. Guilkey

581
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 3: for books, Sanders for thieves, and me for both of

582
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 3: their stories.

583
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 2: Me for the story.

584
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 3: So Bartlett is sympathetic to Guilkey. She even compares them

585
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 3: to mister Rogers.

586
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 2: Well, they both like sweaters. I suppose they got a

587
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:51,360
Speaker 2: comfortable shoe thing going on.

588
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 3: Railway to a magical world. So here's her assessment of

589
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 3: the biblio dick though quote when people steal from anyone

590
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,199
Speaker 3: in the trade, Ken Sanders feels an almost personal attack

591
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 3: on him, and he wants to do anything he can

592
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 3: to catch these guys. He is determined to catch book

593
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 3: thieves as guilty was in stealing the books.

594
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 4: I don't know.

595
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 2: I don't think I think it's a bad read. I

596
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 2: think that he's more determined. You're selling him short totally.

597
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 3: So Bartlett spent lots of time with Guilkey trying to

598
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 3: understand his motivations. Apparently he used the term quote getting

599
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 3: things for free when he talked about his thefts. I

600
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 3: got this book for free library box, someone handed it

601
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 3: to him. He also complained how he quote didn't want

602
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 3: like to spend his own money. Yeah, no kidding, right,

603
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 3: So me neither kid, But what you know, this is life.

604
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 3: Bartlett figured that guilty quote actually stole for love the

605
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 3: love of rare books. That is so apparently rare book

606
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 3: theft is actually more common than fine art theft.

607
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, more access.

608
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and forgery is also popular, which makes sense. So

609
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 3: like there aren't crazy minting marks and seals on old books,

610
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 3: and the materials aren't too hard to source, like if

611
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 3: you can find old stock of stuff like but when

612
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 3: I talk about the forgery, here's an example. The Great

613
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 3: Gatsby without a dust jacket, like a first edition no

614
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 3: dust jacket is worth one hundred and fifty bucks. Throw

615
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 3: an original dust jacket on that puppy and you're looking

616
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 3: at four thousand dollars. So thieves are going to want

617
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 3: to conjure up some old looking books.

618
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 2: You've got to stop getting rid of my dust jackets.

619
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 3: That's what I'm missing the moral of the story.

620
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 2: And also what about when I put in the fake

621
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: signature autograph from the author? Should I be doing that?

622
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 2: Is that good?

623
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 3: You just got to want to source older ink. You

624
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 3: want to make sure that you're using the time contemporary materials.

625
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 3: Just it's easy. So back to guilty, he eventually went

626
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 3: to trial. He did show up. He didn't plead out

627
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 3: during his trial. You know, he claimed to be innocent,

628
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 3: but at the same time he's telling everything to bartlet

629
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 3: So over the course of a year after the sting.

630
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 3: He then eventually pleads guilty to conspiracy, grand theft, identity theft,

631
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 3: credit card theft, and possession of stolen property.

632
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 2: Did they just run out of charges? Well, that's all

633
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 2: we got. The book is done, bro.

634
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,959
Speaker 3: He stole like about two hundred thousand dollars worth of books,

635
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 3: two hundred thousand dollars with the books mostly inner around

636
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 3: San Francisco between nineteen ninety nine and two thousand and three.

637
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 3: So he gets sentenced to eighteen months in San Quentin Prison. Yeah,

638
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 3: which is a pretty that has a pretty robust library.

639
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 2: As far as that's actually, I've.

640
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 3: Been in San Quentin before. Yeah, it's you know, looks

641
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 3: like a prison from the thirties. It's crazy views outside,

642
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 3: spectacular right on the bay. Did you know that there's

643
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 3: actually a college located inside the prison.

644
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 2: I did know that, Elizabeth, because you told me.

645
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 3: It's called Mount tamil Pias College. It's an independent, nonprofit,

646
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 3: actual college in a prison. It's not connected. It's like

647
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 3: not a state college. The professors are all volunteers from

648
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 3: places like Callan Stanford's amazing, so look it up. Guilkey,

649
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 3: he cooled his heels in sand Do.

650
00:30:58,240 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 2: Have a podcast?

651
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, Houseley, So Gilkey, he's in San Quentin. He gets

652
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 3: released on parole less than two years later. And what

653
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 3: did you do when he got out?

654
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 2: Started stealing books?

655
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 4: Bee?

656
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 3: Hey Bartlett? It was it.

657
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: What's that girl?

658
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 3: Yeah?

659
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: So Bartlett, I couldn't stop thinking about you.

660
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 3: Bartlett asks him, like, what are you going to do

661
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 3: for a job, and he says, quote work. Actually they

662
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 3: do have an opening at a bookstore. Like, oh, your horror,

663
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 3: you nave So they did go to a bookstore together though, okay,

664
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 3: and not for a job.

665
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 2: Search a date.

666
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 3: There is a date, sharn close. I want you to

667
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 3: picture it. Yes, you are John Crichton, owner of the

668
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 3: brick Row Bookshop in San Francisco. It's founded in nineteen fifteen.

669
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 3: The brick Row one of the oldest antiquarian book businesses

670
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 3: in the whole United States. Today it's quiet and you're

671
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 3: behind the counter organizing a new batch of small Victorian

672
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 3: books you picked up recently. Charming little tomes no bigger

673
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 3: than your hand, each with beautifully embossed art new vague covers.

674
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 3: You have KCSM, the local jazz station playing quietly in

675
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 3: the background. The bell dings as the door opens, and

676
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 3: two people enter your shop, A shorter, balding man and

677
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 3: a pleasant looking woman Guilty and Bartlett for those of

678
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 3: us in the know, you're currently not in the know

679
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 3: Zarin aka John Crichton. So these two they chat quietly

680
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 3: to each other as they enter the store and begin

681
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 3: to look around. The guy looks familiar, but you can't

682
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 3: really place him. You ask if they need any help.

683
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 3: They tell you they're just browsing. Where do you know

684
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 3: that guy from it's driving you crazy? Does he live

685
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 3: in the neighborhood? But there's like something about him that's

686
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 3: giving you.

687
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 2: Bad vibes, say my bowling league in the seventies.

688
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 3: But then that's it. You got it. A couple of

689
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 3: years ago you sold a copy of Hardy's The Mayor

690
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 3: of Casterbridge to a guy. Of course, great sale, twenty

691
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 3: five hundred dollars. Then a month after that you got

692
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 3: a call someone was complaining of a twenty five hundred

693
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 3: dollars charge on their credit card, even though they'd never

694
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 3: been to brick rope. For that is the castor bridge

695
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 3: guy man f that guy, you think, so you begin

696
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 3: to follow the pair around. Gilkey loudly complains about rare booksellers.

697
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 3: He moans about how the first editions he bought weren't

698
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 3: first editions after all, how books get described as having

699
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 3: dust jackets but they arrive naked. He goes on and

700
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 3: on about how antiquarian booksellers are all cheaters and liars.

701
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 3: The woman with him is like cringing. She looks like

702
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 3: she's dying inside. You're made to tough stuff. You don't

703
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 3: survive in the cutthroat, scheming, ultra violent, rare book world

704
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 3: without having some grit. It's you just keep following him around,

705
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 3: waiting for him to make a mistake, try and pocket

706
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 3: a book or something. That's when you're gonna go full

707
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 3: John Wick on the guy. He doesn't know about the

708
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 3: network of book assassins that you have, or quick staple

709
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 3: the upstairs filled with tattooed telephone operators waiting to put

710
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 3: a price on this guy's head. Or maybe that's all

711
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 3: just fantasy. Maybe whatever, you're tailing guy and you're enjoying

712
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 3: the jazz playing in the background. Then finally they leave

713
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 3: the store, the bell on the on the door bidding them,

714
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 3: I do you get on the phone? Who are you

715
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 3: gonna call? Kenny Sanders Biblio dick himself. Let's take a break.

716
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 3: When we come back, we'll see how this butting friendship

717
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 3: between the journalist and the thief develops. Welcome, what's up, hi, Bartlett? Yes,

718
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 3: he went with Gilkey to the scene in one of

719
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 3: his crimes, and he peacocked around the place, rubbing it

720
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,479
Speaker 3: in dude's face. In your face. Darn ever, he rubbed

721
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 3: it in your face. So when Sanders found out about

722
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 3: this visit to brick Row, he was pissed. But he

723
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 3: was so pissed he dashed off a strongly worded email

724
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 3: to Bartlett.

725
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 2: Downed a glass of pepsi, and said that man has

726
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 2: it coming.

727
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 3: Quote, I don't want to hear about your sick games.

728
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 3: Ever again, he's not having it. So Bartlet, though, just

729
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 3: kept going deeper and deeper into the enigma that was Guilkey.

730
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 3: She visited with his family and was told by his

731
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 3: mother quote, I mean it's innocent. Maybe he was just

732
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 3: wandering around or looking around with a book, and he

733
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,240
Speaker 3: must have forgot about it and then he got caught.

734
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 2: Ma'am, mom, come on, come.

735
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 3: On, missus Gilkey. She showed Bartlet Gilkey's bedroom quote. His

736
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,760
Speaker 3: shoes were neatly lined up on the floor, and artwork

737
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 3: he had collected hung on the walls. I made a

738
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 3: move to leave, but his mother motioned toward the closet,

739
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 3: which she opened. See how he keeps his things neat,

740
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 3: she said. And look more books, Yes, more books, stacks

741
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 3: and stacks of them. Their spines faced the back of

742
00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,400
Speaker 3: the closet, as if in hiding. This seemed the most private,

743
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 3: most intimate corner of Guilkey's room. But instead of looking

744
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 3: inside to see if I recognize any of the books

745
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 3: he had stolen, I turned away. I was afraid of

746
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 3: what I might find if I drew the books from

747
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 3: the pile, what degree of crime and what degree of

748
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 3: responsibility I might bear in knowing the books were there.

749
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 2: I'm less of an investigative journalist and more of an accomplice. Yeah. Wow,

750
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 2: So so he's living with his mom basically in his

751
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: little boy lifestyle, and his mom I want to see

752
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 2: his room, she like. I made the bed so please

753
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 2: forgive this, and then yeah, the whole like, do you

754
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 2: want to see my boy's room? And then she's say

755
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 2: the books all turned backwards, no spines forward, and she's like,

756
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 2: I don't want to touch the book pile. What did

757
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 2: she glean from this trip?

758
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 3: A book? She wrote a book from it. Yeah, So

759
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 3: Guilkey and Bartlett they keep meeting for interviews over the

760
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 3: course of three years.

761
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 2: Wow and slow dating totally.

762
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 3: Not speak dating. Per book reviewer Joel Hyde quote, it

763
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 3: is easy to blame Bartlett for not cooperating more in

764
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 3: the apprehension of a thief, for embarking instead the fool's

765
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 3: errand of trying to understand his heart. It is easy

766
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,280
Speaker 3: to blame her for blurring the distinction between the desire

767
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 3: to possess books and the desire to steal them, not

768
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,280
Speaker 3: to mention the distinction between the desire to possess books

769
00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 3: and the love of them. And then he goes on.

770
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 3: Every profession affords ethical dilemmas, and being reminded of how

771
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 3: difficult and necessary it is to struggle with those dilemmas

772
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 3: is of some value. It just isn't anywhere near as

773
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 3: valuable as it would be to get back books that

774
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 3: were stolen from.

775
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 2: Us exactly, so you can do both. You can return

776
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:35,280
Speaker 2: the books and then wonder.

777
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, Guilkey, he'd been hard to catch because rather than

778
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 3: resell the pieces he acquired, he hoarded them for himself.

779
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 2: And they never had the markets again.

780
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 3: Right, So it's totally true. According to biblio Dick, these

781
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 3: are iconic, valuable books that everybody knows and they're very distinctive.

782
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 3: But I could never find any trace in the marketplace

783
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 3: of them resurfacing or being sold, so it's not this

784
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 3: is like, oh, he's living on this.

785
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

786
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 3: Guilkey confessed to Bartlett that what he really wanted was

787
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 3: a rare book collection that would be worth millions all

788
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 3: to himself.

789
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 2: Totally. He's like that collector in the Twilight Zone, or

790
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,879
Speaker 2: his glasses break, or he's got all the books.

791
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, so Bartlett, She wrote that Guilkey was

792
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 3: obsessed with quote the image of an English gentleman with

793
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 3: a grand library, and Bartlett said, quote he told me

794
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 3: he wanted to have a fine gentleman's library, and he'd

795
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 3: have a big oak desk with a globe on it,

796
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 3: and he would wear a smoking jacket. People would look

797
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 3: at his book collection and see that this was a

798
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 3: man of culture, an aeradype man, and that's what really

799
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 3: drove him.

800
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: So he wanted to be Thomas Jefferson politics. He wanted

801
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 2: to be Richie rich You want to Ben Franklin. He

802
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:47,879
Speaker 2: wanted to be one of those guys with a big He.

803
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 3: Wanted the world to see him as cultured and debonair.

804
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 3: And that's what he thought would be his ideal self.

805
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 2: Books that smelled of leather.

806
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 3: And so, according to Bartlett, quote, he has the love

807
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,600
Speaker 3: of books, but he also has a love of what

808
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 3: the ownership of books.

809
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:04,720
Speaker 2: Says, Yes, what it means to others.

810
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, just like collectors talk about their books on the

811
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 3: shelves is kind of a memoir that reflects on who

812
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 3: they are and what their interests are. Sure, Guilty's no different,

813
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 3: he told Bartlett. Quote, there's a sense of admiration you're

814
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 3: going to get from other people. So he's doing it,

815
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 3: you know, for four others.

816
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, collecting books that no one ever will see. But

817
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 2: he's doing it so that he could imagine that other

818
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 2: people would find him more interesting, his imagination of others

819
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 2: would perceive them.

820
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 3: So she said that Guilty was trying to build an

821
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 3: identity for himself, and he was trying to keep it

822
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 3: in the world. Yeah, but guilty said quote I never

823
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 3: take books from libraries, yet many people do and then

824
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 3: sell them at large profits. That would be stealing.

825
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 2: I think they're both stealing. I think you can qualify.

826
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:47,280
Speaker 2: It's not like only one of them can be stealing.

827
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:52,760
Speaker 3: So most of his thefts remain unrecovered, and they're believed

828
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,240
Speaker 3: to be in a storage unit somewhere in northern California.

829
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 3: Let's get hunting, let's figure this out.

830
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 2: You could probably find it. I would bet on you.

831
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 3: I could probably find it. So the full extent of

832
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 3: his thefts and the exact whereabouts the whereabouts of all

833
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 3: the books he stole totally unknown. Some think that the

834
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 3: mysterious storage unit contains not just rare books, but like autographs, prints, maps, stamps,

835
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 3: comic books, like Hollywood memorabilia, coins, maybe Guyeri's Lamba Yeah yeah,

836
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:26,319
Speaker 3: and like since there isn't a.

837
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 2: Set on like basically a lottery ticket, and people know

838
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,919
Speaker 2: that he's alive and it's somewhere, yeah, I feel for him.

839
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:37,760
Speaker 3: Yeah. So there's not a specific list of actual items

840
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 3: that have been stolen. And are believed to be in

841
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 3: the unit, So even if they knew where it was,

842
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 3: they don't have probable cause for a warrant. A judge

843
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 3: would never sign up. H Bartlett had all this access

844
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 3: to Guilkey, and Sanders, who'd never actually met him, had

845
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 3: a request. He told Bartlett, quote, ask him to tell

846
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 3: you the location of his storage unit where he hides

847
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 3: the books. It must be near his home in Modesto.

848
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,760
Speaker 3: Gives me a clue. Guilty refused. He heard that request,

849
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:03,760
Speaker 3: was like no.

850
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, He's like, are you kidding? Whatever reason I did all.

851
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 3: This, He's like, whatever, girl, Yeah, you're not mad.

852
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 2: You're not my mom. Only she can make me make

853
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 2: my shoes be straight.

854
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 3: I'm picturing Sanders biblio dick in his like film noir

855
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 3: office with theories and evidence and red string on the walls,

856
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 3: slamming his hand down on the desk when he hears this,

857
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 3: and then the furry at the desk and go for yeah.

858
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 2: You got it.

859
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 3: It's like, I'm so close to like triangulating the location.

860
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 3: Let me just call Elizabeth and we'll work on this.

861
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,480
Speaker 3: It's amazing that it is a much better story, right.

862
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 3: I just imagine like a big lavender tale.

863
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, like an NFL mascot that's sexier. Totally to

864
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 2: that Directionndy, what you want.

865
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 3: Well, this is what biblio Dick has to say.

866
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 4: Quote.

867
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 3: He has this irrational belief that he deserves to have

868
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 3: a fine library, and since he can't afford it, we

869
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 3: who are in the trade, who have all of these

870
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:58,279
Speaker 3: lovely books, deserve to just give them to him, And

871
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 3: since we won't, it's his or ordained right to steal

872
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 3: them from us. He's a dirty little book thief and

873
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 3: there's nothing romantic about it. There's nothing noble about him.

874
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 3: He might have a passion for books, but his passion

875
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 3: is for thievery. As far as I'm concerned, he's the

876
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 3: man who loved to steal books too much. And that's

877
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 3: where you good. Then he's a dirty little book thief.

878
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 2: He ain't no Robin Hood no.

879
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 3: According to Bartlett, quote, he has absolutely no remorse for

880
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 3: his crimes. He told me the details of how he

881
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 3: went about it, which I described in the book, but

882
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 3: he feels that it was his right to take the books.

883
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 3: During a phone conversation, he told Bartlett that it's like

884
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,399
Speaker 3: he feels like he's sixty percent wrong and forty percent right,

885
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 3: and that well, he said that like book dealers are

886
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 3: like keeping these books from the public, which like you

887
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 3: with shoving them.

888
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 2: In them from the public. They're offering them for sale

889
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: to the public.

890
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 4: These books.

891
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 3: One point, he said, quote, how am I supposed to

892
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 3: build my collection unless I'm like this multi millionaire?

893
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 2: Well, has he ever met a thought that actually followed

894
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,479
Speaker 2: through on? Or did you always stop in the middle

895
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 2: and make a turn?

896
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:07,440
Speaker 4: Apparently not so.

897
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 3: During two thousand and nine, a bookseller in Canada got

898
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 3: in touch with Sanders. She'd sold a book for five

899
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 3: hundred dollars, but the check was bad. Name on the check,

900
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 3: John Charles Gilkey, whoa chase was on He's back Fall

901
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 3: twenty ten. Gilkey gets arrested.

902
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,479
Speaker 2: Oh so it wasn't like a copycat doing a little nod.

903
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,919
Speaker 3: No, he was just put his actual name on a check.

904
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 2: That was like a loopan move. He like blaming someone else.

905
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,279
Speaker 3: My god, that would be perfect Fall twenty ten. He

906
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 3: gets arrested, not for kiting checks, stealing credit card numbers

907
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 3: so that he get like a first edition of Ojy's

908
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 3: if I did it. No, he was arrested for threatening

909
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 3: to burn down a print gallery in San Francisco after

910
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 3: the manager declined to sell him an item.

911
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 2: See I'm telling you the boy I wrist.

912
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 3: I was going to say, the boy ain't right, Like

913
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 3: he just burned it all down. December fifteenth, twenty ten,

914
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 3: he gets arrested again in San Francisco trying to steal

915
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 3: two antique maps. Okay, I don't know what became of

916
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 3: those arrests. July of twenty eleven, John Waite the security

917
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:14,359
Speaker 3: chair of a baa Antiquarian Booksellers Association of America. He

918
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:18,839
Speaker 3: posted a circulation please be aware that convicted fraudster and

919
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 3: thief John Gilkey is operating once again, likely out of

920
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 3: northern California. And like the alarms went off and there

921
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 3: were people like, oh my god, put my pants on,

922
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,399
Speaker 3: I got to do this on the phone. Totally, there's

923
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 3: a hustle, there's like network lights loading their weapons the continent. Totally.

924
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 3: That's all I keep saying with this. Antiquarian Booksellers is

925
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 3: like a complete John Wick universe in my head, but

926
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 3: not as ultra violent.

927
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 2: Okay, sure for you whatever for me.

928
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 3: Cartoon violence, Yeah, I love cartoon violence. A comic book

929
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 3: dealer in New York State is his latest victim. In

930
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,240
Speaker 3: addition to rare books, he's moved on to print stamp

931
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 3: comics like.

932
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 2: She worked on LPs. Go Vinyl Right.

933
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 3: He was arrested late last year in San Francisco following

934
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 3: a parole violation, but he was released after he or

935
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 3: someone posted seventy five thousand dollars bail.

936
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:10,799
Speaker 2: Bartlet.

937
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 3: This is this is the detail that's driving me nuts.

938
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 3: He's driving me modesto nuts. He's not selling the books

939
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 3: for cash. His family isn't rich, Bartlett. She wasn't there

940
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 3: for the first bail out, and she's not rich. Who's

941
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 3: bailing him out?

942
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 2: I'm telling you it's Bartlett's my guest.

943
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 3: Do you think so?

944
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 2: I think she loves it over that three years, but

945
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 2: a time I think she's like started to see something

946
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 2: in him. Maybe she's looking for book too. I don't know.

947
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 3: But he's skipped bail, of course, and there's an outstanding

948
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 3: warrant for his arrest and an ongoing San Francisco police investigation.

949
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 3: Really yeah, good luck with that. He basically disappeared, but

950
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 3: he's still active. So John Gilkey, if you're listening, you

951
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 3: are welcome to come on the podcast and tell your story.

952
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 3: We promise not to call Biblio Dick, although I probably will.

953
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 3: She will because amazing for her too. Biblio Dick, if

954
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,399
Speaker 3: you want to come to hook it up, I want

955
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:11,839
Speaker 3: to hear all your ridiculous crime story. I git one

956
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 3: hear your side, Gilkey, hit us up online. Let us

957
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 3: know you're still alive. Tell us what you're going to

958
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 3: steal next. Tell me where the where do you? Where's

959
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 3: your storage in case you need to ride? Do you

960
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 3: need to ride to your storage studio?

961
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I'm gonna be a modesta for a game.

962
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 2: We can go nuts.

963
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 3: I can take you anywhere, just I'll drive you there

964
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 3: as Aaron. What's your ridiculous takeaway?

965
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 4: Wow?

966
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,359
Speaker 2: For this one, I think it's got to be that

967
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 2: Bartlett thought that she would learn anything from this hanging

968
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 2: out with him for all these years. Because everything the

969
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 2: quotes you told me and what we've learned about him,

970
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 2: you're telling of his story, I did learn something. I

971
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 2: don't think we learned anything from her version, because it

972
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 2: seems like her perspective was kind of skewed, if that

973
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 2: makes sense. So I feel it's kind of like ridiculous

974
00:46:56,840 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 2: that she spent so much time around a person that

975
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 2: she should have just been dating, and then apparently she

976
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 2: got a book out of it, you know, So I'm like, oh,

977
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 2: you missed.

978
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fat. I'm fast.

979
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,439
Speaker 2: You're ridiculous takeaway. Thank you for I did not try

980
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 2: that sometimes, Okay, I will.

981
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 3: I'm fascinated by her and her getting sucked into this.

982
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,239
Speaker 3: You know, it makes for a good story. Biblio Dick

983
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 3: hero of all heroes.

984
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 2: Oh, I love me a good Jack Mormon. I grew

985
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 2: up in a town with a lot of Mormons, and

986
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 2: the ones who are ex Mormons fascinating. Well, a lot

987
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 2: of strength of character going against all of your family

988
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 2: and your culture. And really I often like.

989
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,239
Speaker 3: This guy's like so dedicated to books and literature, and

990
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 3: his investment in not just the value of the books

991
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 3: is like you know, commerce, but what they.

992
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 2: Mean and you know to others, not just to him.

993
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 3: Right, And when we're talking about like our top fives,

994
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 3: you think about what those books mean to us, and

995
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,959
Speaker 3: that if you could have like first editions of those

996
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 3: or signed copies, how important that would be to you

997
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 3: and how connected you'd be because of the stories that

998
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 3: these writers have crafted. So if you want a first

999
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 3: edition signed driftwood.

1000
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,320
Speaker 2: That just about a second. If I had the first edition.

1001
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 3: Signed paperback has the better cover, I always go with

1002
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:12,720
Speaker 3: the paperback on that one.

1003
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 2: I would be willing to steal one of those. You know,

1004
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 2: do you have one? Don't answer that, don't ask.

1005
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 3: Well, that's all I have. You can find us online

1006
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 3: at ridiculous crime dot com. There's merch there. I heard

1007
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 3: sometimes no, sometimes yes. We're also at Ridiculous Crime on

1008
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 3: Twitter and Instagram. I quit Twitter? What I deactivated my account?

1009
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 2: You did?

1010
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:35,919
Speaker 3: I did?

1011
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 2: Wow?

1012
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 3: You know up his.

1013
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 2: I'm not as brave as you do.

1014
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 4: Not email?

1015
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 3: Do it? Do not email ridiculous Crime at gmail dot com.

1016
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 3: And then, but please god, why aren't you people leaving

1017
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 3: talkbacks on the iHeart app?

1018
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 2: We do like those. We'll start playing with you.

1019
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 3: I ask very little of the root is and I

1020
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 3: give so much and all I wanted some talkback?

1021
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 2: You have the woman a pete.

1022
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 3: Uh, yeah, that's it. Ridiculous Crime is hosted by Elizabeth

1023
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 3: Dutton and z Aaron Burnett, produced and edited by First

1024
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 3: Edition Dave Cousten's Who Research is by Marissa handbound copy

1025
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 3: of Leaves of Grass Brown and Andrea Brahmstoker's Dracula printed

1026
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,919
Speaker 3: on a silver dagger song Sharpened Hear. The theme song

1027
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 3: is by Thomas Original Nancy Comic in a plastic sleeve

1028
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 3: Lee and Travis Moneyball with no dust jacket. Totally naked,

1029
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 3: totally legal, totally cool. Dutton Executive producers are Sergeant at

1030
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 3: Arms of the A B A A. Ben Bollen and

1031
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 3: Shadow Chancellor of the A B A A. Noel Brown.

1032
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 2: Dus Crime Say It One More Time.

1033
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:59,000
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio four More Podcasts,

1034
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 1: my heart Radios, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1035
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows,