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Speaker 1: Cool Media. Hello, and welcome to Cool People Who did

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Speaker 1: cool stuff? Your weekly podcast, the only podcast that comes

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Speaker 1: out every week. Actually, ah dude, oh no? Are we

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Speaker 1: by weekly now twice a week? I know? Does that

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Speaker 1: make it bi weekly? Or is bi weekly every two weeks?

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Speaker 1: We semi weekly?

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Speaker 2: It means both? Oh wow, I believe bi weekly could

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Speaker 2: mean either way, which feels like very confusing.

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Speaker 1: Mm hm, not the first confusion caused by bye. All right, Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy and with me today is

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Speaker 1: you probably know because you probably listen to Part one

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Speaker 1: is our guest Alison Raskin, who's a New York Times

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Speaker 1: bestselling author, a podcaster, a mental health advocate, and a

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Speaker 1: relationship coach and a master's degree in psychology.

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Speaker 2: It turns out, yes, I've struggled my way through that,

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Speaker 2: and now I get to claim.

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Speaker 1: It as you should.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me back. I'm so excited to

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Speaker 2: have my final verdict done. If I think this is

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Speaker 2: a culture.

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Speaker 1: Not yeah, yeah, no, I mean like I mean, And

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be a two part question is it a cult?

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Speaker 1: And is it a is it cool? They're gonna be

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Speaker 1: separate questions. And our guest producer today is James Stout.

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Speaker 1: How are you. I'm good, I'm very happy.

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Speaker 3: I'm having my tea. I'm listening to cool stories about

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Speaker 3: cool people.

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Speaker 1: Hell yeah, Well our audio engineers Rory. Everyone has to

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Speaker 1: say hi to Rory because otherwise I'm afraid bad luck

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Speaker 1: will happen. I've somehow convinced myself of this thing, and

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Speaker 1: I'm not normally a superstitious person, but Hi Rory, Hi

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Speaker 1: Roy Hior and our theme music was written for us

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Speaker 1: by unwoman. Some weeks I completely forget and it seems

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Speaker 1: to be okay, but whatever, it's gone into my head.

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Speaker 1: Do you all have like weird work things, like podcast

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Speaker 1: things where you're like, I have to do this thing.

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Speaker 2: Well, I have OCD, so I have a lot of things.

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Speaker 2: I got it too, but they're mostly they're mostly related

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Speaker 2: to contamination and cleaning.

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Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I probably h I don't want to

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Speaker 3: self diagnose myself. I have to go for a run

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Speaker 3: before I do a podcast, or my brain just will

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Speaker 3: not be quiet and it will go in lots of

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Speaker 3: different directions.

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Speaker 1: Fair enough. Well, speaking of getting stuff done, Fountain House

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Speaker 1: is getting stuff done where we last left them. For

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Speaker 1: anyone who missed part one. Fountain House is a well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm not going to do it all again,

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Speaker 1: but it's a place that's like people go when they

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Speaker 1: need help with their serious mental illnesses. But that is

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Speaker 1: based on developing agency and giving them a sense of purpose.

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Speaker 1: And Fountain House is starting to come together under the

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Speaker 1: new directorship. From its start, its goal has been what

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Speaker 1: could be called assimilationist, which is like in a lot

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Speaker 1: of radical circles, a word that sounds bad. But the

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Speaker 1: members of Fountain House overall desire to find a way

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Speaker 1: to return to society and not be separated from it

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Speaker 1: by their illness. Interestingly, at least these days, the staff

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Speaker 1: are actually more likely to be radical than the members.

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Speaker 1: But the members, for good reason, are the ones in charge.

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Speaker 1: You know, they have more stake in it, right, They're like, no,

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Speaker 1: we got to make sure that this thing works and

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Speaker 1: we don't want to change it up terribly, right, because

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Speaker 1: this is the thing that allows us to continue to

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Speaker 1: live for a lot of people, and many of the

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Speaker 1: members wanted to be able to work, and they wanted

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Speaker 1: to work so that they can have the independence that

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Speaker 1: money provides, or for something to do. Sometimes people want

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Speaker 1: structure for a while in their lives, and for whatever

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Speaker 1: different reasons, people wanted work, So fountain House started sorting

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Speaker 1: out how to make that happen. In nineteen fifty eight,

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Speaker 1: they started working with what Gut's called transitional employment. Jobs

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Speaker 1: for people with any disabilities, including SMIs, are rarer and

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Speaker 1: they pay substantially worse. There's even like, even if it's

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Speaker 1: not a job that's been set aside for people with

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Speaker 1: serious mental illnesses, they'll be getting I forgot to put

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Speaker 1: the actual number down of my scripts. It's like eight

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Speaker 1: percent less or whatever. You know, there's a wage gap here, right,

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Speaker 1: made me mad? Yeah, Well, in fact, it's perfectly legal

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Speaker 1: for employers to pay disabled people less than they pay

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Speaker 1: their other employees, including paying less than minimum wage. It's

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Speaker 1: called subminimum wage employment. Do you all know about this?

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Speaker 1: That's one would for it.

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Speaker 2: I know there's a huge issue with them with disabled

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Speaker 2: people not being allowed to have savings, and if they

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Speaker 2: have savings, then they lose their benefits. And also a

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Speaker 2: lot of disabled people can't get married because if they

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Speaker 2: get married, then their spouse's income counts towards their income,

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Speaker 2: and suddenly they'll lose their benefits. So there actually isn't

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Speaker 2: marriage equality in this country. After all.

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Speaker 1: It's so evil, It is just so completely evil that

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Speaker 1: these people who are already dealing with so much, it's

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Speaker 1: just on top of it. You're like, and you not

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Speaker 1: even allowed the American dream yourass out.

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Speaker 2: Of this, you know, like and most people don't know, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's like a thing that's like was not talked about

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Speaker 2: unless you are disabled or you know, in that world

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Speaker 2: where people talk abo of these things.

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Speaker 1: No. I remember my friend who was being like, no,

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Speaker 1: I can only work thirteen hours this month. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: if I work more than thirteen hours at the following wage,

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Speaker 1: I will lose all of my money. And they like

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Speaker 1: live with horrible chronic pain and like, you know can't. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, it's also the question of like, what is the

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Speaker 2: logic there, explain how that is an okay policy to me?

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Speaker 2: In any explanation that is not that these people deserve

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Speaker 2: to suffer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, sub minimum wage. The argument that they make

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Speaker 1: is like the Department of Labor. I was like looking

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Speaker 1: at their defense of it, and they're like, well, it's

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Speaker 1: okay because they don't do as the work as much

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Speaker 1: because they and I'm like that's not what minimum wage

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Speaker 1: is about the minimum wages. You just can't pay people

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Speaker 1: less than this unless they're incarcerated, which is also a problem.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, and subminimum wage employment, considering the fact that

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Speaker 1: minimum wage is seven dollars and twenty five cents federally,

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine working for five dollars an hour again,

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Speaker 1: And I did the math. When I first started working,

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Speaker 1: minimum wage was four twenty five and I was working

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Speaker 1: for four to twenty five an hour because I'm bold whatever,

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Speaker 1: And that four to twenty five I earned in the

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Speaker 1: nineties is nine to twenty eight an hour to day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's astonishing that it does not go up,

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Speaker 2: and that we and that California just voted against ending

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Speaker 2: indentured service.

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Speaker 1: The language used was slavery.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was literally, and it literally on the ballot

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Speaker 2: it said no opposition, and people were still like, not

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Speaker 2: for me, Nah, yeah, let's continue this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's fine that we just literally have

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Speaker 1: continued slavery. Sub minimum wage is bullshit. The Department of

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Speaker 1: Labor is right now as I record this, considering getting

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Speaker 1: rid of the program that lets the employers pay less

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Speaker 1: than minimum wage. But the rule wouldn't take place until

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Speaker 1: January seventeenth, twenty twenty five, which famously is three days

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Speaker 1: before Trump comes to office, So we'll see what happens

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Speaker 1: with that. Fountain House, of course, came out the gate

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Speaker 1: with something better, and in these days they're doing something

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Speaker 1: even better still, but we'll talk about that in a minute.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty eight, they started what they call transitional employment. Basically,

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Speaker 1: certain employers would assign certain job slots to Fountainhouse, and

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Speaker 1: then Fountainhouse would fill those slots with its members, who

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Speaker 1: are then supported in those jobs because the job is

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Speaker 1: sort of part of their therapy, right, And so one

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Speaker 1: of these jobs, if you suddenly don't show up to

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Speaker 1: work right because you're dealing with illness, someone else from

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Speaker 1: Fountainhouse will fill that. Either it's another member or it

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Speaker 1: will be a staff person if no one else will

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Speaker 1: do it right. All jobs for Clubhouse members pay the

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Speaker 1: same as anyone else working that job, and transitional employment

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Speaker 1: positions are meant to be temporary, about six to nine months.

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Speaker 1: These are usually fairly uncomplicated jobs. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: say unskilled because that's a myth, but their jobs with

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Speaker 1: a certain amount of routine involved working in the mail

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Speaker 1: room or doing janitorial work, or stocking shelves, this kind

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Speaker 1: of thing, the things that might like minimize the sort

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Speaker 1: of chaos introduced. So there's transitional employment that they offer,

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Speaker 1: and then they also offer supported employment, which are non

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Speaker 1: temporary jobs, but the clubhouse is still and the social

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Speaker 1: workers and such are so interfacing with the employer and

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Speaker 1: offering some support in that workplace. And then there's independent

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Speaker 1: employment where clubhouses will help you get set up to

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Speaker 1: go apply at a regular competitive you know, get a

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Speaker 1: regular job. And one of the most incredible things about

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Speaker 1: clubhouses from my point of view, is that they seem

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Speaker 1: to hit upon these very radical ideas, but then they

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Speaker 1: come to them or prove the worth of these ideas

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Speaker 1: empirically and not ideologically ideologically. I love worker cooperatives. We've

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Speaker 1: talked about them before in the show. We will continue

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Speaker 1: to do so again. But these days Fountain House and

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Speaker 1: many other clubhouses develop worker cooperatives for their transitional employment.

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Speaker 1: Both an Australian clubhouse and one in Michigan started doing

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Speaker 1: worker cooperatives before fountain House did. I'll talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit later. I'm kind of playing with the timing. Later

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the spread of clubhouses around

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Speaker 1: the world and cooperatives makes sense. One of the whole

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Speaker 1: purposes of a clubhouse is to develop people's sense of

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Speaker 1: purpose and agency, and traditional workforces strip you of that,

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Speaker 1: while workplace democracy develops it. If you go in and

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Speaker 1: you're part of making the place work, you have some

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Speaker 1: ownership in it. For full disclosure, my work before it

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Speaker 1: was a podcaster, it was that I worked in cooperative

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Speaker 1: finance and like, so it was really funny. It was

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Speaker 1: really funny to tell my because I've always been this

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Speaker 1: like weird punk kid and like lived in a cabin

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Speaker 1: and while I like lived in an off grade cabinet,

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Speaker 1: to like tell my parents be like, I have a

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Speaker 1: job in finance, I.

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Speaker 2: Was gonna say that it almost sounds like an oxymoron.

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Speaker 2: What does that mean?

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Speaker 1: So actually, okay, as a tangent. Another group that I

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Speaker 1: think is amazing that I don't know if I've ever

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Speaker 1: talked about on the show because it's like newer than

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Speaker 1: I usually cover. It's a group called seed Commons. Oh,

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Speaker 1: we have talked about it when we talked about workers

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Speaker 1: taking over their factories in Argentina in two thousand and

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Speaker 1: three ish. Basically it's a way of financing worker cooperatives

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Speaker 1: and getting them up and going so that they can

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Speaker 1: become profitable businesses. But the money stays in the local

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Speaker 1: economy because there's not this extractive force removing it. And

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Speaker 1: then also everyone who has that job has an ownership stake.

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Speaker 1: And it's cool because like during the pandemic or whatever,

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Speaker 1: it's just totally over and everything's fine now. But during that,

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Speaker 1: you know, restaurants and things like that, especially, we're closing

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Speaker 1: left and right. And we had dozens of worker cooperative

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Speaker 1: restaurants that we supported and none of them closed their

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Speaker 1: doors for good. Because a worker own business is able

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Speaker 1: to be like more agile because they're able to themselves.

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Speaker 1: They're like everyone who's working there as part of it.

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Speaker 1: So they get together and they say, well, what do

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Speaker 1: we have to do and they can kind of like

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Speaker 1: take the hit a little bit more when everyone's an owner,

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Speaker 1: you know. Anyway, I love worker cooperatives, but they don't

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Speaker 1: do it ideologically. They do it because it works and

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Speaker 1: it just made sense for them. It made sense to

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Speaker 1: help build people's sense of agency and purpose, and the

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Speaker 1: way that they did it was also to feel that

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Speaker 1: the traditional way that they were doing. It was collapsing

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Speaker 1: because in the fifties, offices would hire their own janitors

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Speaker 1: and their own mail room staff, and their own landscapers

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Speaker 1: and such like that, right, But nowadays everything is outsourced

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Speaker 1: to different companies. A business hires a janitorial company instead

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Speaker 1: of having their own staff in house. So all the

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Speaker 1: jobs that it used to be set aside for Fountainhouse

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Speaker 1: were starting to dry up and became a problem. And

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Speaker 1: folks were like, fine, will become the company that is

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Speaker 1: outsourced to and so they set up worker cooperatives to

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Speaker 1: do it. And I don't think that this is a

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Speaker 1: total coincidence. The sort of model of being the largest

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Speaker 1: worker cooperative in the US is coincidentally, it's not. It's

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Speaker 1: not related to Fountainhouse, but it's also in New York City.

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Speaker 1: It's called Cooperative home Care Associates and it is a

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Speaker 1: home care agency in the Bronx. It has two thousand employees,

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Speaker 1: well two thousand people hire themselves. This is a worker

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Speaker 1: owned business, right, and it works really well with the

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Speaker 1: sort of precarious workforce like home care. That's what where

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Speaker 1: worker cooperatives often excel. And I think all workforces should

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Speaker 1: be cooperatised, but that's my own, like, you know whatever,

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Speaker 1: utopian visioning. And so transitional employment for most members is

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Speaker 1: more therapeutic than career oriented. They over staff all their positions,

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Speaker 1: so there's like three times the workers that are necessary

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Speaker 1: in order to do one do the job, you know,

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Speaker 1: less stressful, right if you work, And there's just plenty

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Speaker 1: of people doing it. Although I guess there's certain jobs

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Speaker 1: that I would be doing that I would not want

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Speaker 1: that because I would be more stressed. But I'm a whatever.

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Speaker 1: I don't suffer from a serious mental illness, you know.

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Speaker 1: And since Fountainhouse is a nonprofit, it doesn't need to

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Speaker 1: turn a profit and so it doesn't need to be

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Speaker 1: all cutthroat about staffing. They can just be like, well,

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Speaker 1: we make enough money, it's fine, we'll just hire a

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Speaker 1: bunch more people. So some people do transitional work because

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Speaker 1: they want to prove to themselves that they can hold

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Speaker 1: down a job and are going to go on to

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Speaker 1: supported employment and independent employment. And sometimes they just do

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Speaker 1: it temporarily because they want to do it temporarily. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: they take it on because they're talking to their therapists

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Speaker 1: and their therapists or social workers or whatever. Like, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe you could use some external structure right now, just

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Speaker 1: for a little bit, right, you know, you'll get back

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Speaker 1: to painting and you're not depressed, and for now to

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Speaker 1: go make soap. Right. Oh god, that's gonna make it

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Speaker 1: sound like fight club. They do make soap. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about that in a minute.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't be more of a sucker for a fancy

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Speaker 2: bath product.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Well, if you lived in New York City,

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Speaker 1: there's I got a place for you. There's not one

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Speaker 1: of the sponsors of our show. Although whatever, I'm clearly

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Speaker 1: shouting them out, and because also I'm not gonna talk

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Speaker 1: shit on them on like the sponsors of a show.

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Speaker 1: This is not an ad transition. We'll do one in

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Speaker 1: a couple of minutes. And sometimes they're talking to the therapists,

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Speaker 1: and the therapists are like, all right, we can use

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Speaker 1: some external structure. So take on a job for six

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Speaker 1: months to get out of the house and get through

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Speaker 1: this depression spell and then you get back to painting

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Speaker 1: or whatever your real goal in life is or whatever.

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Speaker 1: So it's sometimes it's pre vocational and sometimes it's not.

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Speaker 1: And there's no pressure about that. I love that, right,

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Speaker 1: it's like whatever the individual needs, it relates to it.

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Speaker 1: And so fountain House runs a bunch of these places.

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Speaker 1: They have a store called fountain House and Body that

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Speaker 1: makes and sells high end soap and candles and such.

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Speaker 1: And it's package free, so you can like just go

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Speaker 1: in and they're gonna you can custom order the sense

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Speaker 1: and they'll make it in front of you. It's pretty cool.

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Speaker 2: I would bring my own little baggy though, to keep

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Speaker 2: it from getting dirty.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely. Imagine like walking home with a bar

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Speaker 1: of soap.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's nightmare for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the texture your hand would become so dry.

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Speaker 2: I have very few childhood memories I question for another day,

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Speaker 2: but one of them is like when I went to

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Speaker 2: summer camp, Like I think one summer, like my first

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Speaker 2: night away or something. I had gone and the bathroom

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Speaker 2: was not in the bunk because they specifically had different

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Speaker 2: bathrooms because they didn't want kids from Long Island to

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Speaker 2: go to this camp. So I like when it took

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Speaker 2: my first shower that I was like walking back to

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Speaker 2: my bunk and I like fell and my soap like

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Speaker 2: fell on the dirt and so heartbreaking.

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Speaker 1: And it's like but the soap is meant to make

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Speaker 1: things not dirty. Row the soap is dirty or it

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Speaker 1: now has like a nice texture to it, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's more exfoliation.

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Speaker 2: I branches are always helpful.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I bet you pay extra to put

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Speaker 1: sticks and twigs and soap, you know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you hit the right niche, you could

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Speaker 2: really make a killing off of that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, od crust or I don't know any French, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so fountain House and Body they network with other

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Speaker 1: social enterprises around the world, so you can like go

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Speaker 1: in and buy dish towels made by blind folks who

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Speaker 1: live in Finland or things like that. Right, I believe

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Speaker 1: it's currently closed and not one hundred per cent certain.

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Speaker 1: I think it's moving from Soho to be closer to

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Speaker 1: Fountain House, and it's gonna reopen with like a coffee

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Speaker 1: and tea shop as part of it. Then it becomes

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Speaker 1: like the kind of place where I would just go

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Speaker 1: hang out and do all my writing. I wrote a

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Speaker 1: bunch of my books sitting in a worker cooperative cafe.

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Speaker 1: It's a nice place to do it.

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Speaker 2: I can't write not in my home. Really interesting, okay, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Like I don't know. I've never been a coffee shop writer.

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Speaker 1: Do you write with music, honor in silence.

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Speaker 2: In silence? Me too, Yeah, music feels wild to me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think I had to listen to music when

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Speaker 1: I was writing in coffee shops. Oh, but it can't

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Speaker 1: be music with words unless there are words that I

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Speaker 1: don't understand, which is a lot of words because most

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Speaker 1: of the languages in this world, I have no idea

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Speaker 1: what people are saying.

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Speaker 2: My dad's music taste is like spa.

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Speaker 1: Music nice, so you can write to that, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Like he could. Like we were in the car with

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Speaker 2: him and it was his music was playing and everything

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Speaker 2: was like spa music, and then like the soundtrack to

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Speaker 2: sircd us away.

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Speaker 1: That's worrying. I once traded a massage therapist friend of

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Speaker 1: mine was like sick of all the like be massage

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Speaker 1: music that was available, and I had been. I was

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Speaker 1: thinking to myself, like, I bet I could write an

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Speaker 1: hour's worth of this music faster than an hour. I

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Speaker 1: bet I could write it in less than an hour.

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Speaker 1: And I proved myself wrong. It took me ninety minutes

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Speaker 1: to write a sixty minute track, but a terrible ratio. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So then I traded. I traded my friend this track

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Speaker 1: for a massage, but I made two versions of it

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Speaker 1: because the first version I described as Enya in Hell

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Speaker 1: and uh and it was a little too much.

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Speaker 2: To be honest, Enya all the time. It makes me

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Speaker 2: feel like I'm in hell.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, that's just a personal problem.

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Speaker 1: I might have a similar taste of music as your father.

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Speaker 1: I not sure is an an You're in hell just bulk?

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's true. I mean mine's just like run through

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Speaker 1: some distortion and with more like weird chanting in the background.

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Speaker 1: But okay, Yeah, to make a version without the distortion

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Speaker 1: and the chanting, and that's what I had to do.

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Speaker 1: There's two versions of it anyway, James, are you Are

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Speaker 1: you a quiet or are you a This is totally

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Speaker 1: what we're all talking about today. You're a quiet writer

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Speaker 1: or a music writer?

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Speaker 3: Write my dissertation. I'm a music writer. I did my

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Speaker 3: dissertation of my first book in coffee shops with music.

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Speaker 3: I have to have my headphones on when I write.

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Speaker 3: I have to like, I have to have very specific,

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Speaker 3: like physical feelings to be like feel like I'm like

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Speaker 3: locked in for writing. And it's the same with me

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Speaker 3: for lots of things actually, and I have to have

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Speaker 3: the headphones on, have to listen to music. Okay, as

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Speaker 3: long as I have the headphones on, I have the music,

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Speaker 3: then I can I can write anywhere.

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Speaker 1: You know what else you can do with headphones? Take

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Speaker 1: them off in the middle of the head break? Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can take them off for the next three minutes.

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Speaker 1: Or you can listen to these ads from these amazing

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Speaker 1: products and services, some of which will ruin your life,

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Speaker 1: like gambling. Here they are and we're back, and I

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Speaker 1: have no idea what we were talking. Oh yeah. Other

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Speaker 1: worker cooperatives that they ran or do run. They do

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Speaker 1: messenger work. Their biggest client is meals on wheels, so

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Speaker 1: you know, folks need food deliver to their house. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's people from Fountain House doing it. They have a

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Speaker 1: landscaping business that manages like small plots and rooftop gardens

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Speaker 1: and stuff like that. They run a warm line so

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Speaker 1: that people in crisis, are neared a crisis can call

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Speaker 1: and talk to someone who you know has been through

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Speaker 1: that shit too. That's great, that's pretty cool. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: they also have a non transitional worker cooperative like one

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Speaker 1: that's a more of a permanent employment type place, and

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Speaker 1: it's an art gallery and it's about to have its

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Speaker 1: twenty fifth anniversary, and so they just get stuff done.

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Speaker 2: And long term, like they've persevered through the decades, which

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Speaker 2: is really cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's like, it's funny because I was like

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Speaker 1: the fact that it's still a little bit like workplace focused.

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Speaker 1: It still has a little bit of like a fifties vibe,

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Speaker 1: you know, but not necessarily in a bad way. They're

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Speaker 1: like pulling it off.

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Speaker 2: You know what part of it's a fifties vibe?

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Speaker 1: Oh, I think that like being kind of like work.

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Speaker 1: It's good, go have a job. You know. I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna say work will set you free that I know.

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Speaker 1: I know it went into my brain and I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: not that it went into mind too, Margaret.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Plus if they all dressed like greasers. No they don't,

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Speaker 1: but it'd be.

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Speaker 2: Cool if it.

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Speaker 1: That's why I was hoping it was outfits. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: actually don't think there's like a subcultural element to it

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Speaker 1: that I'm aware of, but I would be fully supportive

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Speaker 1: if there was. And I'm going to go on a tangent.

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Speaker 1: Oh I should That's when I should have done the

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Speaker 1: ad break but it's too late. I already did it.

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Speaker 1: I co host another podcast called Live Like the World

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Speaker 1: Is Dying, and it's about individual and community preparedness. One

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Speaker 1: topic we've covered several times and will continue to cover

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Speaker 1: is preparedness for people who deal with disabilities. About a

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Speaker 1: year ago, episode one hundred and one is with a

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Speaker 1: Canadian activist and writer named Leah Lekshma Piepshma Semersinga, and

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Speaker 1: I think about this episode all the time because people

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Speaker 1: often sort of ask how abled preparedness can apply to

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Speaker 1: disabled communities, But in some ways this is an inverted question.

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Speaker 1: Disability activists in communities have done way more of this

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Speaker 1: work for longer because both individual and community preparedness is

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Speaker 1: often required for day to day life, and so there

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Speaker 1: are networks of people who track each other's needs and

435
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 1: work together to meet them. And there's an awful lot

436
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,159
Speaker 1: thatabled people interested in preparedness can do that they can

437
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 1: learn from the networks that disabled people have put together.

438
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,880
Speaker 1: And when I read about the Clubhouse model and Fountain

439
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 1: House and it's focus on developing agency and healthcare, social

440
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,719
Speaker 1: environments and the workplace, all I can think about again

441
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 1: is like, Oh, these folks are the teachers. Right, these

442
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,919
Speaker 1: are the people who've been trying this and doing this

443
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,200
Speaker 1: and running it through experiments for seventy years. You know, yeah,

444
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: because folks fighting for their rights and agency as neurodiversent

445
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: people have done an enormous amount of work in this field.

446
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,280
Speaker 1: And the people who study this stuff, who are often

447
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 1: neurodivergent people themselves, have done an incredible amount of work.

448
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 1: Fountain House changes people from patients receiving care to people

449
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: who are working to develop their own agency around care.

450
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 1: E L. Desi, one of the founders of self determination theory,

451
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 1: put it like this quote. The main thing about choice

452
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 1: is that it engenders willingness. It encourages people to fully

453
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 1: endorse what they are doing, pulls them into the activity,

454
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,199
Speaker 1: and allows them to feel a greater sense of volition.

455
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 1: It decreases their alienation. And boy, are a lot of

456
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 1: people feeling alienated right now. Like we live in the

457
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 1: golden era of isolation and alienation. And here is a

458
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 1: component to solving that, and that is developing our lives

459
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 1: by creating structures that engender purpose and give us choice

460
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: and give us agency and things. And I don't know,

461
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: I get really excited about it.

462
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 2: It's an interesting time because the country is less religious

463
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 2: and I personally I am not a big proponent of

464
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 2: organized religion, but there was a community element to that

465
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 2: of like seeing the same people every week and going

466
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 2: to church and synagogue and temple it, you know, and

467
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 2: so like we haven't filled the gap in terms of

468
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 2: like how to have community places that people go to

469
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 2: frequently enough that to like the fill the role that

470
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 2: sort of organized religion did for quite some time.

471
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 1: I think that's a a really good point. And you know,

472
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 1: and also that like more and more communities are just online,

473
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 1: and online communities can fill important purposes, but I don't

474
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: think it's everything.

475
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 2: You know, It's hard because I think online communities can

476
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: be so awesome, but it also keeps you like immobile.

477
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 2: It keeps you like locked in to the inside in

478
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 2: a sense, like you know, like that it can make

479
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 2: you more closed in versus like exploring nature with your

480
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 2: friend or you know, going somewhere with them to do

481
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 2: an activity together.

482
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: You mean, like taking care of all pacas. Because that's

483
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: the next part of what I'm going to talk about.

484
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 2: Thank God, I'm so excited.

485
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: Wait though, before we talk about the alpacas, I just

486
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: got really excited about a good transition. But now I'm

487
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 1: not even going to use it. Uh nope, I lost it.

488
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 1: We'll just talk about out pacas.

489
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 2: Oh, thank god? Okay, good, yea good.

490
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: One of the many projects attached to Fountain House is

491
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: called Fountainhouse Farm, which is an appropriate name for a

492
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: farm attached to Fountainhouse. They call it the Farm with

493
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: capital letter, which is a point in the Cult book,

494
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: but you know whatever. This is a four hundred and

495
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: seventy seven acre farm in New Jersey where members of

496
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: Fountain House can go for a few days or a

497
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: month to help grow the food that is served in

498
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 1: the clubhouse. And they get to work together as equals

499
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: with other people, and they get to eat community meals,

500
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: and they get to hang out in animals. And this

501
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: is less like the worker cooperatives and stuff and more

502
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: run like Fountainhouse itself. The work there is volunteer. You

503
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 1: can go there and just hang out. You can go

504
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 1: there and take care of folks. You're taking care of

505
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 1: yourself and your own community. Right. You're like producing the

506
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 1: honey that gets sent to Fountainhouse. Some of it gets sold,

507
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: but that get sent to Fountainhouse to feed people. To

508
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: feed you you. The farm itself has an interesting history.

509
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 1: There's a guy named Alfred Keller from a rich family

510
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 1: who suffered from a serious mental illness, and in the

511
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties he used to run away from institutions. That

512
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I would say he was suffering from the

513
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 1: institutions at least as much he was suffering from whatever. Anyway,

514
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 1: he would run away and he would go hang out

515
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 1: at this farm, and his family never abandoned him, but

516
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 1: he kept getting reinstitutionalized. He was actually a Fountain House member,

517
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 1: but he kept getting reinstitutionalized, and so his family bought

518
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 1: the farm, hoping that one day he would be allowed

519
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: out of the institutions and could just live and work

520
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 1: on that farm. As best as I can tell, that

521
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 1: never happened. Alfred died institutionalized, as I understand, although his

522
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: family then donated the farm to Fountain House. Most of

523
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 1: the articles about the farm are framed kind of condescendingly

524
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 1: in ways I don't like, with headlines like Modern Farmers

525
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 1: twenty fifteen at this New Jersey farm al Pacaz help

526
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: the mentally ill, and you're just like, well, it goes

527
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: in both directions. Yeah, yeah. The opaca is on bringing

528
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 1: their own crumbles. Yeah, like it's actually mutual. Eight is

529
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 1: what's going on? Like the article itself is all right.

530
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: I know writers don't pick their headlines. If you wrote

531
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: that article, I'm not mad at you if you read

532
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: the headline, though, we are mad at your editor. Yeah totally.

533
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 1: But yeah, a fountain House farm people raise sheep and

534
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 1: I'll pack us for wool, and they work with a

535
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: co op that spins that wool. They keep bees, and

536
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: they grow vegetables and fruit and I think maple syrup.

537
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 1: They just do all the stuff. And there's like endless

538
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: good quotes that didn't end up fitting into my script

539
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: from people just being like this rules I get to

540
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: go hang out with animals. They actually put it much

541
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: more eloquently than I just made it sound, but they

542
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: just are like, this is amazing. I love going out

543
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 1: and hanging out with animals. And there's also a lot

544
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: of stuff around, like I say this living in a

545
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: house with only my dog that's curled up at my

546
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: feet right now. Sometimes people have an easier time hanging

547
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: out with animals and with people. You know, I don't

548
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: know anything about that. It just must be other people.

549
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, I mean either. Yeah, this is.

550
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 3: A dream I've been to it. It's interesting. This is

551
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 3: not the only i'll Paka Fom cooperative that we have

552
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 3: covered here.

553
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: On coolcert Media. Yeah, it's rules. Well apparently at the

554
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: first I'm off script here, so I get the details wrong.

555
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Apparently for a while they kept our packers

556
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: and then sold them because that was like there was

557
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: a big boom in alpaca farming and like the early arts,

558
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: the ol paka boom. Yeah, the old packer boom that

559
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: everyone knows about.

560
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 3: Okay, so when I went to was taking our packers

561
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 3: off boomers who had got our packers during the boom

562
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 3: and they could no longer look after them.

563
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: Totally, that actually makes a lot of sense and explain.

564
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 2: This boom to me. People are just like really into

565
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 2: having our packers or they want the our pack of wool.

566
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 3: I think it's the eighties and nineties. You know, people's

567
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:43,720
Speaker 3: wearing bright colored clothes.

568
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's for the wall. I think it

569
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: was like everyone thought it'd be like the good business.

570
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 3: It's having a resurgence. So actually, look, in the last

571
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 3: four or five years, I get way more pr pitched about.

572
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: Our pack of wool.

573
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 3: Can I plug a brand of our packa wool clothing?

574
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 3: I like?

575
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: I mean, as long as everyone knows that's not one

576
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: of our advertisers.

577
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they're not paying us. So the company called

578
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 3: Arms of Andy's who make alpaca wool like pay slayers,

579
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 3: and I love them. They're great. I was hiking the

580
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 3: other day I wore one. I felt good. Hell yeah,

581
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 3: it makes me happy. Yeah, ol pakas they're great. This

582
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 3: podcast brought to you by.

583
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 2: L Packers, by Big Alpaka.

584
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: Yeah one big alpaca Godzilla size, the final boss you know,

585
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: or the biggest friend. Both depends on how you depends

586
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: on what you'd say to it. It's not a boss.

587
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: It's a cooperative.

588
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 3: Our packas are inherently cooperative that they can't have bosses,

589
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 3: no god snow masters, just our packers.

590
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 1: So yeah, they have a farm. They also support their

591
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: members through education. They offer mentoring and tutoring groups. Like

592
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: if people go and seek traditional education, right, they will

593
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: the social workers there will you know, help you do that.

594
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: They offer mentoring and tutoring groups and I think like

595
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: helping people get ready for class and whatever whatever else

596
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 1: folks need, Like a lot of the stuff that happens

597
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: at clubhouse is just like you show up and there's

598
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: someone who can help you figure out how to move

599
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: or find apply for housing, you know, you know, like

600
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: talking to my friends, they're like, oh, you know, what

601
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: did you do today?

602
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 3: Oh?

603
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: I drove around all around town with like a couch

604
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: in the back of the van trying to figure out

605
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: how to get it up the stairs or you know whatever.

606
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: They just go around and are helping people sort stuff out.

607
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 2: That's what these big companies should offer rather than like yoga. Yeah,

608
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 2: right to to be like you need help with some

609
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 2: weird technical issue or scheduling or something, We'll send someone

610
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 2: to be at your place when the cable guy comes. Yeah,

611
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: that's going to be a better benefit than like, you know,

612
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 2: free like yoga or whatever, like the fancy snack.

613
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh my god. There is going to be a

614
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: dark part of the future where this clubhouse model is

615
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: appropriated by big tech.

616
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 2: Absolutely, probably as a result of this episode.

617
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is cool, And I will feel great about

618
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: it as long as they hire me and so it

619
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 1: helps me when I can't. I like live alone in

620
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: the country and every now and then I have objects

621
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: that are too large for me, and I'm like, what

622
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: the hell am I going to do now? You know,

623
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: because I move a large filing cabinet down a hill and.

624
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 2: Your Google helper will show up soon.

625
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly.

626
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well you'll just turniate a disk trying to

627
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 3: do it by yourself.

628
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,719
Speaker 1: That's the more likely thing. And as I as I age,

629
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: I'm like, how do the people who lived here before me? Anyway? Whatever,

630
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 1: there's more about my house than anyone needs to know.

631
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: And so they help people through higher education enough so

632
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: that a two thousand and three study estimated that quote

633
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: the majority of supported education programs available for adults with

634
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: serious mental illnesses were provided by clubhouses. Wow, which is like,

635
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: there's only sixty thousand people who are being held by

636
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: clubhouses in this country right now. So that's bad. It

637
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: shouldn't be the I mean, or there should just be

638
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: a ton more clubhouses. But that's how exceptional in the

639
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: field they are. The clubhouse model spread and it is

640
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 1: still spreading. It took a minute. A lot of the

641
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 1: stuff they pioneered somewhat mainstream now, but it was revolutionary

642
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: at the time. And then throw in the worker cooperative

643
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: stuff and it's still revolutionary. In a literal challenging capitalism sense,

644
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: although again a completely a political project.

645
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 2: I want to push back on that.

646
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: I think they identify as an a political project.

647
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 2: But I think that's a mistake. Okay, but I guess,

648
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 2: I know, I guess it's strategic, right, But I personally

649
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: think that all mental health care has to be political. Yeah,

650
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 2: because so much of our issues are our structures of

651
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: oppression and the way in which society is set up.

652
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 2: And to say that, like it's a big debate like

653
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 2: within like therapists and you know, how political should you

654
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 2: be with your clients. But I'm of the proponent that

655
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 2: you have to be political because so many of these

656
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 2: problems are caused by politics.

657
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: That makes sense to me, and I tend to agree

658
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: with you.

659
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 2: Oh, we should write them a letter. We'll let them

660
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: know totally.

661
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: Well, what's funny is is like it wouldn't be able

662
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 1: to change without the members themselves agreeing to it, right,

663
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: And so it's kind of interesting. So like, yeah, I

664
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 1: recently was like helping a bunch of my friends deal

665
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: with a bunch of pretty intense mental health crises, and

666
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: at the end of it, I was like, if someone

667
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: was able to give you cars that ran most of

668
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: your problems would be your mental health would get better.

669
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:49,399
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, you know, like you can't like positive think

670
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 2: your way out of poverty.

671
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was that study a long time ago. I'm

672
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: sure this number has gone up. There's a study a

673
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 1: number of years ago that money does buy happiness up

674
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: to about seventy thous dollars a year, and then it stops.

675
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 2: I also don't believe.

676
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: That you think it keeps buying happiness or.

677
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 2: Well especially seventy thousand that needs to go up all

678
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 2: the cost.

679
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

680
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 2: But I also, I mean just this whole concept of

681
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 2: like money doesn't give you happiness, It's like that's just not.

682
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: True, because yeah, that's and that's what the study was

683
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: is They're like, oh, actually no, it it directly correlates.

684
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 2: But I do think there's a difference between like I

685
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 2: don't know, I think that there is something like you

686
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 2: can go on vacation. Yeah, like if you are getting

687
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 2: more money than just like your basic needs. I do

688
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 2: think there is something of like, oh, I can take

689
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 2: myself out to dinner, I can treat myself here. I

690
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 2: don't have to worry about that. I can you know,

691
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 2: do what I want to do for my children, like

692
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 2: this idea that like, oh it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.

693
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's being poor. It is very stressful.

694
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, like we just got upgraded to seventy seventy thousand

695
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 3: things thanks to a union, and like, yeah, it's nice

696
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 3: to be like if my truck breaks, I can buy

697
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 3: the pots and fix it, Like I'll be okay. Yeah

698
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 3: that is couldsider be nicer than not being able to

699
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:03,359
Speaker 3: bite depots and fix your drug?

700
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it is interesting because that was actually one

701
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 1: of the part of the conversation I had with a

702
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: friend about this is just like talking about how they

703
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: do not perceive themselves as a political project, except specifically

704
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 1: around these particular things where so many people in this

705
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: field do. And that's it's not a plus or minus

706
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 1: to clubhouse in a lot of ways, right, It's just.

707
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 2: A thing maybe what makes them more effective because the

708
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: world's becomes so politically divided that saying they're a political

709
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,239
Speaker 2: lets them through doors that would otherwise be close to them.

710
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 1: As possible, even though it's like again I'm like, oh,

711
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 1: they're consensus based organization that fights for justice for people,

712
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,479
Speaker 1: or like on an individual level, fights for justice people

713
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 1: with serious mental illnesses who've were forgotten by society and

714
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: builds worker cooperatives and like, to me, they're political as hell,

715
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 1: and they're like envisioning a better world in so many ways,

716
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: but that's not the way they conceive of their project,

717
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: you know.

718
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 2: Right, And that's probably strategic and smart.

719
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. So deinstitutionalization swept across the US in the nineteen

720
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 1: fifties and sixties, and there's a bunch of different reasons

721
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: for it, and I started learning about them, and then

722
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 1: I realized this is only to be about a paragraph

723
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 1: of my script, and I can't take two days of

724
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: learning about this. But overall, psychiatric meds became more available

725
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties and sixties, and that helped an

726
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,479
Speaker 1: awful lot of people, as his own problems as well,

727
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 1: And the political will to keep people locked up like

728
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: chained to things, you know whatever, stopped being there. And

729
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 1: some of it came from a desire to not make

730
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: everyone's lives miserable by putting them institutions whatever. So they're like, oh,

731
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: we're going to de institutionalize. And there was a lot

732
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 1: of like radical movements. I think I'm gonna talk about

733
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 1: more on the show that fought for this, especially in Italy.

734
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: At least that's the one that I started reading about

735
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: before I realized that fountain House was going to take

736
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: up my entire script. Originally, this is going to be

737
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: half and half fountain House and then this Italian thing.

738
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: But for whatever reason, deinstitutionalization swept across the US and

739
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties and sixties, and this meant that half

740
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 1: a million people left institutions to live in the general public,

741
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 1: but without proper access to housing and care and employment

742
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: and shit like that. And there's a reason that there

743
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: are so many abandoned psychiatric hospitals around the country. They

744
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: are a model that has largely been proven ineffective, at

745
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 1: least at the scale they were being used. But uh,

746
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: it's messy, A don't do you know what all I

747
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:27,879
Speaker 1: know about it is messy. I was reading, like, there's

748
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,720
Speaker 1: some implications of how messy it is, but well.

749
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 2: They just took away a resource that wasn't working and

750
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,280
Speaker 2: didn't provide anything else. So like, now you have people

751
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 2: being like, well we should like people like Chrump being

752
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 2: like we should put them back in an institution or

753
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 2: back in a camp or you know, and it's like no,

754
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 2: like those places are not good, but like there has

755
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 2: to be something else, Like there needed to maybe be

756
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 2: more outpatient resources that were given to people, and more

757
00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:00,240
Speaker 2: social services given to people, and better access to mental

758
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 2: health treatment. So you know, if you went for being

759
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 2: in a psychiatric hospital where like I guess maybe you

760
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 2: were at least getting therapy, questionable how good it would be,

761
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 2: but now like you can't even afford any therapy because

762
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 2: no one takes insurance or your insurance will cover it.

763
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 2: Like it kind of went from like, well, we're going

764
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 2: to take over your whole life and not do it

765
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 2: very well to actually, you're completely on your own.

766
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: Yeah that sounds about right. But what supports us and

767
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: so that we're not on our own are podcast sponsors.

768
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 2: That was a good one.

769
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, thank you. This is the only thing

770
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: I'm actually good. Is The part I enjoy the most

771
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 1: is the just pure raw cynicism, much like the cynicism

772
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: with which these ads have crafted their messages to appeal

773
00:39:50,480 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: to you. Here they are back. Sometimes we actually get

774
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: like actual sponsors where I'm like that's kind of cool,

775
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: you know, like that was like for a while, like

776
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: a lot of the ads were like, go outside with

777
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: your friends. National Forest Council says go outside, and I'm like,

778
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: you know what, go outside with your friends. Hell yeah.

779
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 2: I love the ads for Ronald Reagan's son's organization that's

780
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 2: like about being an atheist or whatever. And he's like,

781
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 2: I'm something Reagan and I don't care if I burn

782
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 2: in hell.

783
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: WHOA.

784
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 3: It's a good at you to have to life if

785
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 3: you're a Reagan to be fair, Yeah yeah.

786
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 2: I'm not worried about burning in hell. And I'm like,

787
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 2: that's a ad I can really get behinde.

788
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, hell yeah. Well, the clubhouse model suits de

789
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: institutionalization are all right because it meets former patients and

790
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: folks with serious mental illnesses where they're at. In nineteen

791
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 1: seventy seven, the National Clubhouse Training Program was formed so

792
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: that the model was able to spread. Standards were developed

793
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: in nineteen nine, and Clubhouse International started accrediting clubhouses in

794
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two. Not all clubhouses in the network have

795
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: a credation, meaning there's some sort of like kind of

796
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: like half clubhouses three quarter clubhouses right where they meet

797
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 1: certain parts of the criteria not others. And there's a

798
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 1: lot of projects that are like clubhouses, but fundamentally different

799
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: and aren't associated with Clubhouse International at all. We're going

800
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: to talk about one of those in Japan. At the

801
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 1: very end. There are more than three hundred and seventy

802
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 1: clubhouse model institutions now in thirty three countries. I actually

803
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: don't know institutions right where. It probably isn't that you

804
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 1: don't live there, you know.

805
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 2: None of them. People don't live in them at all.

806
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,839
Speaker 1: Ever. Oh it's funny. I did read all thirty seven

807
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: of the principles, and I can't remember that's on there,

808
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 1: but I think it is.

809
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 2: Okay, it's yeah, got it.

810
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: And they you know, they help you with housing and

811
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: things like that.

812
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 2: But oh great.

813
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 1: In the US, clubhouses serve about sixty thousand members, but

814
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 1: considering there is an estimated fifteen million people in the

815
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: US living with serious mental illness, this is only a

816
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: drop in the bucket. Clubhouse International has developed thirty seven

817
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: standards for credation. It's a good list, and not all

818
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 1: of them come from Fountainhouse. Some of them, and I'm

819
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: paraphrasing here. Membership is voluntary and without time limits. Members

820
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:20,800
Speaker 1: choose the way to utilize the clubhouse. There's equal access

821
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: to all opportunities without differentiation based on your diagnosis or

822
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 1: your level of functioning. All meetings are open to members

823
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: and staff both. There are no staff only spaces in

824
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: any of the buildings. Clubhouses can't be attached to mental

825
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 1: health institutions. Like any other organization, job placement will be

826
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 1: the prevailing wage. And the very last of the thirty

827
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: seven principles standards sorry is quote the clubhouseholds open forums

828
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: and has procedures which enable members and staff to actively

829
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 1: participate in decision making, generally by consensus, regarding governance, policy making,

830
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,399
Speaker 1: and future direction and development of the clubhouse. And it's

831
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: this last part, generally by consensus, that I'm going to

832
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 1: focus on for a second. These days, Fountainhouse has twelve

833
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: hundred active members and seventy staff. Not to put you

834
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: on the spot, but did you do it go to

835
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: any of the like the Occupy era consensus meetings?

836
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 2: I didn't know.

837
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: Okay, in some ways you were lucky. James is now

838
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: twinkling and the Occupy protests of twenty eleven first popularized

839
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: consensus decision making and then kind of through backlash, unpopularized

840
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 1: consensus decision making because everyone was sick of endless meetings

841
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: and the struggles to find consensus, and saw all the

842
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: ways that people can hijack that process. And though, of

843
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 1: course though Occupy was a huge deal, it also didn't

844
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 1: really accomplish its goals, which doesn't really make it seem

845
00:43:57,880 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 1: to be able to say empirically like this is the

846
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:04,720
Speaker 1: that works right right During that period, I was talking

847
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: to one of my friends who works at fountain House,

848
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: and a paraphrase that conversation from memory from thirteen years ago.

849
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: He said, everyone is saying consensus decision making can't work,

850
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: or that it's too hard. We make decisions through consensus

851
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: at fountain House with hundreds of people, all of whom

852
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: have serious mental illnesses, and we reach consensus quickly because

853
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 1: the people at fountain House know that they need to.

854
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: They know that it isn't a game, it's their lives.

855
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: And the reason I love this so much is that

856
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: they didn't decide I know I've said this before when

857
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 1: I beat this point home to you listeners. They didn't

858
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: decide on consensus from an ideological position. They didn't say

859
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 1: we do consensus because it's good and moral and everything

860
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 1: else is authoritarian and bad. They reached the idea of

861
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 1: using consensus because it worked, they tried voting and it

862
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: quickly formed two factions peadily squabbling, and the whole thing

863
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: almost fell apart, which we totally can't think about it. Obviously,

864
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 1: no one in the United States is dealt with anything

865
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: like that recently. Under John Beard for a while, it

866
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: basically was like it wasn't consensus under John Beard for

867
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 1: a while, right, the only factions are John Beard and

868
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 1: then everyone else. And I think it was like a benevolent, accountable,

869
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: transparent dictator basically was the whether who was director. Everyone's

870
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: involved in a lot of decisions, but sort of the

871
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,399
Speaker 1: buck always stopped with him kind of thing.

872
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 2: You know, you know, I really have this belief that

873
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 2: that's the best way, but it's impossible to get a

874
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:35,879
Speaker 2: good person at the top.

875
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,280
Speaker 1: Well, and so what happened is is after that stopped

876
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 1: being the case, he died in nineteen eighty two, when

877
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: he was only fifty nine years old, he was still

878
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: the director. I believe when he died they moved to

879
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: consensus because it worked, and so that was mean.

880
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:52,240
Speaker 2: I don't know what it means.

881
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I take certain things for granted.

882
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 2: But I don't know what.

883
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 1: No, no, no, it's totally fine. Consensus decision making is

884
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 1: when you get everyone to agree instead of voting.

885
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 2: Oh so everyone has to be on board rather than

886
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 2: you just need a majority.

887
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 1: Right, got it?

888
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 2: Got it.

889
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: And consensus is interesting because everyone thinks it's like super

890
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 1: aggressive voting and it's not. It's not getting everyone to

891
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: vote the same way. It's saying, like, what is the

892
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: thing that we can all agree to do? Because if

893
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: you can't reach consensus, like imagine, imagine you and your

894
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 1: friends wanted to commit a crime. I'm just using this

895
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: because it's a heavy thing. Right, there's a consequence to

896
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: committing a crime unless you're sometimes president. Yeah, yes, oh

897
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 1: son off, Yeah, that's true. That's true.

898
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 2: Uh.

899
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 4: Oh.

900
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: I did have a friend. I had a couple of

901
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: friends who were had diplomatic immunity when I was a

902
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 1: teenager because I grew up near DC and the stuff. Anyway, whatever,

903
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,439
Speaker 1: I would have raged. Yeah.

904
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 4: No.

905
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 1: Actually, at one point one of my friends, her dad,

906
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,479
Speaker 1: got promoted back to the country that she was from

907
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 1: because they were sick of her and her brother getting

908
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:07,799
Speaker 1: in trouble and having to bail them out. My very

909
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: first earring was shoplifted by her, and I met her

910
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 1: on the day that she was supposed to be in

911
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 1: court for shoplifting. She decided not to She went to

912
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: a concert anyway before. I talked about international incidents that

913
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: I was involved in when I was younger. So imagine

914
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 1: you and your friends want to commit a crime because

915
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 1: this is somehow better thing to talk about, and there's

916
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: like eighty you and you're like, all right, shouldn't we

917
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 1: go commit this crime? You clearly need to have everyone agree, right,

918
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 1: and if everyone doesn't agree, then all eight of you

919
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 1: shouldn't go commit that crime, right, Because if someone doesn't

920
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,399
Speaker 1: want to, they shouldn't have to go commit the crime

921
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 1: because it's a huge, big risk. And so consensus is

922
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: like a way of finding out what are we all

923
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 1: comfortable with? And maybe you start off with a really

924
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: big crime, but then like for you are like, no,

925
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 1: I don't want to do that, or even two of

926
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 1: you or one of you is like I don't want

927
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 1: to do that, and you're like, well, we all want

928
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,879
Speaker 1: to hang out together, so what do we all want

929
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: to do? I mean, honestly, I could have used going

930
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 1: to a restaurant with your friends as an example. You know,

931
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 1: it's like as the vegan and any given group like it. Basically,

932
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: it's like everything we always have to go places that

933
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: I can eat, you.

934
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 2: Know, same both examples track, Yeah, totally, yeah, exactly.

935
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 1: So that's consensus decision making and that's how they make

936
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,879
Speaker 1: their decisions as with hundreds of people, and they talk

937
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 1: about what they all are down to do together. And

938
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 1: we know the clubhouse model works because there are thousands

939
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: and thousands of people telling us that it works, and

940
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 1: we know that it's a model that we can learn

941
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 1: from about how to build agency and community and alienation

942
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 1: and how to make decisions collectively. We also know it

943
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 1: works because it's been studied time and time again. According

944
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: to a twenty twenty two paper by Joshua Seedman and

945
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 1: Kevin Rice, quote, randomized controlled trials have indicated that clubhouse

946
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 1: members experience a significantly improved quality of life compared to

947
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: those participating in general community services or other models. Also quote,

948
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,800
Speaker 1: clubhouses have further been proven to reduce severe psychiatric symptoms,

949
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: improve self esteem, and decrease internalized stigma, promoting greater recovery experiences,

950
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: thus reducing the need for psychiatric hospitalization. Randomized controlled trials

951
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:21,320
Speaker 1: of clubhouse programs have shown reduced hospitalization of clubhouse members.

952
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 1: Clubhouse costs are substantially lower than partial hospitalization. Thus, clubhouse

953
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:32,760
Speaker 1: membership reduces the overall cost of health care. And study

954
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: after study, and I know this because I read the

955
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,120
Speaker 1: meta analysis study, because that's what I do with my time.

956
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,160
Speaker 1: It shows that clubhouse members have more secure employment, more

957
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 1: friends and more people that they can rely on, and

958
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 1: a higher standard of living, better wages, and fewer rehospitalizations.

959
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:54,359
Speaker 1: And it's not perfect, right, fewer rehospitalizations as I forgot

960
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: to write down the numbers in the script, but it's

961
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: something like it goes down from like forty five percent

962
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 1: to like twenty eight percent, you know.

963
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 2: All right, and it.

964
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: It's not just going to like solve everything, right, you know.

965
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 1: And I think it's also worth pointing out that you

966
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:11,359
Speaker 1: get this like sort of biodiversity thing of like this

967
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 1: is a way of doing this, and not like not

968
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 1: that now the clubhouse should take over the world, you know.

969
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: And to contrast it, I asked my friend at Fountain

970
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,239
Speaker 1: House if there's anything else I should bring up, and

971
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: he told me about a place in Japan called Bethel House.

972
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 1: He went and stayed and visited a while ago. The

973
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: people at Bethel House knew all about the clubhouse model,

974
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 1: but they had their own spin on things. It was

975
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:39,680
Speaker 1: a more radical take, but it started quite similarly. In

976
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight, a group of people who'd just been

977
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 1: discharged from a hospital got together to take care of

978
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: one another. They bought it. This one's even more culty,

979
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: but they also seem totally fine. They bought an abandoned

980
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 1: church and they moved in together. And I just ordered

981
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 1: the only book on English about this place, and I

982
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 1: might end up doing more episodes about it. But for now,

983
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 1: the big us different subjectively between Bethel House and the clubhouses,

984
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,840
Speaker 1: and there are clubhouses in Japan, is that Bethel House

985
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 1: isn't assimilationist. It does not focus on rehabilitation. It forms

986
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: essentially a counter culture. There's no like subcultural elements to

987
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: it that I'm aware of, but it wants to create

988
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: a different They're like, we will interface with mainstream society,

989
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 1: but we're not trying to just go fix ourselves and

990
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 1: be back right. It too doesn't see itself as a

991
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 1: political project, because they'd see it as they see it.

992
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 1: They're not trying to change Japanese culture or politics. They're

993
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,239
Speaker 1: just trying to live their lives outside the system that

994
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 1: they don't participate in or agree with. They are integrated

995
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 1: economically into the small town they're in, and they believe

996
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:49,400
Speaker 1: that they ought to be helping out those around them

997
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 1: as well. There's about one hundred people involved in Bethel House,

998
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 1: so it's a very different scale. These hundred people run

999
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: a ton of worker cooperatives. While my friend was there,

1000
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: they ran a seaweed factory, a restaurant, a radio station,

1001
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:06,439
Speaker 1: a knitting cooperative, and others according to their website. Now

1002
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 1: they also deliver materials to the elderly as one of

1003
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 1: their main businesses. So it's like a really similar set

1004
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 1: of things, right, Yeah, And the way that they make

1005
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 1: their decisions about who's going to work is even more

1006
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 1: like chaos time and super autonomy. It's really interesting. Every

1007
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 1: morning they gather together and the captains from each work

1008
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 1: or cooperative say, all right, well, this is how much

1009
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 1: help we're hoping to get today at the place that

1010
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 1: we work, Right, And people would volunteer to work their shifts.

1011
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: It's paid work, but you know they would decide to

1012
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: go do it. Some people wouldn't bother to work at all.

1013
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: Others would be like, eh, I only want to do

1014
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 1: seaweed for two hours, and I can only do it

1015
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:47,239
Speaker 1: from eleven to one, and I don't want to do

1016
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: it any other at time. Other people would work whole

1017
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 1: shifts a Fountain House. If no one takes a place

1018
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 1: at one of the cooperatives, staff steps up and make

1019
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: sure that that business functions that day, right right at Bethelhouse.

1020
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 1: If no one works at the radio station, then the

1021
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 1: radio station just doesn't run that day. And one of

1022
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: their slogans from the English language section of their website

1023
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: is let's make a workplace where everybody can skip work

1024
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 1: without feeling guilty. Oh it's beautiful. I know.

1025
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 2: I almost feel like this setup would make you feel

1026
00:53:19,680 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 2: more guilty because it'd be like there's no radio station

1027
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 2: today because of me.

1028
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 1: I know, but I think that they, like really, I

1029
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,319
Speaker 1: think they're really strongly like God's fine, all right, uh

1030
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: like not like, well, we're not even gonna do it

1031
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 1: if you all don't do it. It's just like, all right,

1032
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 1: no radio station today, like no one wanted to, Like,

1033
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:37,439
Speaker 1: if no one wants to paint the walls, we can't

1034
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 1: make them paint the walls. They're just not going to

1035
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 1: have the walls painted. You know. Another one of their slogans,

1036
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 1: which I don't know how to entirely I have the

1037
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: way I interpret it, but I assume it's not a

1038
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:50,319
Speaker 1: perfect translation, is no more upward life. We stay with

1039
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 1: downward life. And they honor those among them that hear voices,

1040
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 1: and they call them mister voice or miss voice. And

1041
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 1: they wear pins indicating how they feel that day that

1042
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:05,239
Speaker 1: are like color coded if it's like kind of like

1043
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 1: a don't talk to me today, you know. Yeah, yeah,

1044
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 1: And they're more on like a mad pride vibe than

1045
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 1: the clubhouse model is.

1046
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,320
Speaker 2: But no, but again, they don't live there. They live elsewhere.

1047
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 1: I actually think those people do live there, but I'm

1048
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 1: not sure.

1049
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 2: Ye, I think it's the vibe that they live there,

1050
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:21,399
Speaker 2: but I could be wrong.

1051
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 1: So it was described to me that there's like a

1052
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,359
Speaker 1: group of them that are called nomads where I think

1053
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 1: they have a bunch of different like basically crash pads

1054
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,399
Speaker 1: where anyone can stay at any of them. If you're

1055
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 1: a member of Bethel House, you can just show up

1056
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 1: at any other any Bethel House house and be like,

1057
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 1: I must stay here tonight. So I don't know much

1058
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 1: about them yet.

1059
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 2: Here's a question I have, how do you start a clubhouse?

1060
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,280
Speaker 2: Who is like, how does that? How does a location

1061
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,240
Speaker 2: decide to start a clubhouse? If like, are they like franchises?

1062
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 2: Is there like some overarching person in charge of making

1063
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 2: you know, because some are accredited, some aren't, Like, how

1064
00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:58,240
Speaker 2: does that happen?

1065
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 1: So every clubhouse is autonomous as long as they subscribe

1066
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: to the thirty seven principles, And so I believe one

1067
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,279
Speaker 1: of the principles is that the clubhouses are autonomous, so

1068
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 1: like the decisions are made by those local members and

1069
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 1: things like that. And I know that there is an

1070
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,800
Speaker 1: organization called Clubhouse International that I believe it's not formally.

1071
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 1: I believe Fountainhouse is like the flagship of Clubhouse International,

1072
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 1: but it's not running Clubhouse International. I believe that is

1073
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 1: a separate body. And so I believe that you basically,

1074
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 1: I assume you start a five LLE and C three

1075
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,880
Speaker 1: and intend to create a clubhouse model and ascribe to

1076
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 1: these principles and then get a credation through Clubhouse International,

1077
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,880
Speaker 1: and I assume probably the like financing of it is

1078
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 1: going to come the way that you would have to

1079
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:46,200
Speaker 1: finance any nonprofit through grants and things like that. But

1080
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 1: I've been more certain about things. But that's my inference

1081
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 1: from what I've read a lot of shit about this,

1082
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 1: but I didn't read how to start on.

1083
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:58,240
Speaker 2: And then so you said, there's sixty thousand current members

1084
00:55:58,280 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 2: in America.

1085
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 1: Or that is twe hundred twelve hundred is fountain.

1086
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 2: House, Oh, fountain House, got it?

1087
00:56:05,719 --> 00:56:09,360
Speaker 1: Yeah? And then sixty thousand people in clubhouses across the country,

1088
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 1: of which I believe there's a couple hundred. I know

1089
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 1: it's like either two hundred seventy or three hundred seventy

1090
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 1: I don't remember I said it earlier, but that there's

1091
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 1: a number that is the entire world, and then there's

1092
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 1: a number that's in the US that I forgot to

1093
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:21,719
Speaker 1: write down, but it's like two hundred dish.

1094
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:23,880
Speaker 2: It's a wild yeah.

1095
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 1: And if you there's a map, if if anyone is

1096
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:27,960
Speaker 1: interested in it's like, you know, honestly, this like seems

1097
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 1: like it's for me, right, There is a map, there's

1098
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:34,920
Speaker 1: like a find your local clubhouse, and you know they're

1099
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 1: in places they wouldn't necessarily expect, and all of them

1100
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 1: are perfect, and you will have a perfect time and

1101
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 1: everything will be great and one hundred percent satisfaction guaranteed.

1102
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1103
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 2: You just can't talk to your friends or family, but

1104
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 2: that's fine.

1105
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all. You can give all your money to

1106
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:50,920
Speaker 1: the call I mean the Clubhouse.

1107
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 3: No.

1108
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 1: I like, because if you give the really cliffs Notes

1109
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 1: version of Clubhouse to someone, it sounds kind of wacky, right,

1110
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,840
Speaker 1: because we're so attuned to being afraid, because this is

1111
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 1: the kind of people who are preyed on by cults,

1112
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:08,760
Speaker 1: you know, and even some of the like don't worry,

1113
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 1: We're all just working and work well, you know, set

1114
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 1: you free. Right, There's like cults that get together and

1115
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 1: make products that they're just exploiting people's labor and stuff

1116
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 1: like that. And I think that it's just so interesting

1117
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 1: to see someone not doing that, you know.

1118
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:28,080
Speaker 2: Well, it's like really exciting and kind of a relief

1119
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 2: to know that that can happen, because I feel like

1120
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 2: so many things start off well intentioned and then become evil.

1121
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 2: And so to recognize like this has been around for

1122
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 2: decades and it seems to still be above board and

1123
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 2: doing the intended mission is like really wonderful. Yeah, and

1124
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:49,280
Speaker 2: dare I say cool?

1125
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:53,600
Speaker 1: I know, so is it cool people doing cool stuff?

1126
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 2: It's until I get an email from a listener saying, Alice,

1127
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:01,440
Speaker 2: and how dare you if this is a very problematic institution.

1128
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 2: I will say it sounds like it's cool people doing cool.

1129
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 1: Stuff, and if you want to send that to Alison,

1130
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 1: you's just sending me instead. Although I'm not going to

1131
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 1: give you my email address, but people somehow managed to

1132
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:12,479
Speaker 1: find a way to reach me anyway. Because it's my fault,

1133
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 1: not Allison's.

1134
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 2: Fault, I don't know how they find it. People find

1135
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 2: my email, I'm like, where I know?

1136
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 1: I know, and don't email me to tell me how

1137
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 1: you found my email.

1138
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:23,880
Speaker 2: The best is I would get like these emails out

1139
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 2: are like I figured out your phone number from your

1140
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 2: dog's collar. It is blank, Blake, Blake, Blake Blake. And

1141
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, but that's not it.

1142
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 1: This is why every time I take a picture of

1143
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:39,520
Speaker 1: my dog, I make sure that his collar is covered.

1144
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:41,800
Speaker 2: I know you have to, but it's always been people

1145
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:44,959
Speaker 2: that are like, I'm not creepy. Yeah, I just want

1146
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 2: you to know that someone who is could decipher this

1147
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 2: because I did.

1148
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 1: And this isn't to say that everyone who has reached

1149
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 1: out to me, including by finding my email dress, which

1150
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 1: I think is available in some public place because enough

1151
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 1: people write me that it must be some more publicly.

1152
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:02,919
Speaker 1: Most of these emails are very nice, and I'm oh, yeah, but.

1153
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 2: It's super well intentioned. It's just funny. When they're like,

1154
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 2: and I've cracked it, I'm like, and that's not my number.

1155
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1156
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 1: When the Nazis docks to me, they were like, and

1157
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: you live here, and I'm like, oh no, you've got me,

1158
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 1: don't go to that address.

1159
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, some poor lady, Yeah.

1160
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 1: James, you got any any final thoughts? Clubhouses?

1161
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 3: This is cool. I love a co operative I love

1162
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 3: people helping people. I like this.

1163
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 1: This is cool.

1164
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 3: I'm gonna I'm gonna look them up.

1165
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 1: I'm gonna see you see if it's one name. Yeah,

1166
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 1: And I haven't talked to anyone from any other clubhouse,

1167
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 1: to be clear, but I you know, it's like I

1168
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 1: was waiting for the other shoe to drop. And maybe

1169
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's people have had bad experiences with it, right,

1170
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 1: but overall, I'm really excited about it. I warned Twitter.

1171
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 1: I was like, next week weeks episodes is going to

1172
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 1: be unrelentingly posey but yeah, how could you do it

1173
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 1: to de Margaret? Well, if people want to hear more

1174
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 1: of your voice, how can they do that Besides sending

1175
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 1: you an email?

1176
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 2: They can get the audiobook of my new book I

1177
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 2: Do I Think Conversations about Modern Marriage, which I narrate,

1178
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 2: and it's also available as a hardcover. And then you

1179
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 2: could listen to my weekly podcast called Just between Us.

1180
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 2: And if you just want to hear my thoughts in

1181
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:37,000
Speaker 2: written form, so read my thoughts in written form, you

1182
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 2: could subscribe to my substack called Emotional Support Lady. And

1183
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 2: then I guess if you want to hear from me directly,

1184
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 2: you can go to my website, alisonraaskin dot com, where

1185
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 2: I offer a relationship coaching for both individuals and couples.

1186
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Also, I believe in your listener's ability because

1187
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 1: I do this with podcasters that I listen to. I

1188
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:01,920
Speaker 1: can read their written work and hear it in their voice.

1189
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 2: I get that all the time. People are like, I

1190
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 2: read this exactly how you would say it.

1191
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you know it's like I listen to podcasts

1192
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 1: all the time too. I understand that.

1193
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 2: You know, like I read this in your voice.

1194
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 1: It was fun yeah, James the I think you want

1195
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:17,960
Speaker 1: to plug.

1196
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, I have a Patreon. It's my name, James

1197
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:26,560
Speaker 3: Stout Patreon, dot com, slash James Stout. I believe people

1198
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 3: can read my thoughts there. I'm writing a book for

1199
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:32,440
Speaker 3: a k Press about anarchists at war, and you can

1200
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 3: you can buy that in the coming year, in twenty

1201
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 3: twenty five, it will be done and it will be

1202
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 3: available for purchase.

1203
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 1: I was a come out next year. I'm excited about

1204
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:41,640
Speaker 1: that book. Yeah. Yeah.

1205
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 3: I did the old author questionnaire and like we're closing in,

1206
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 3: I have to I rewrite the Syrian Civil War section

1207
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:50,919
Speaker 3: about every month or so as there's things dramatically changed.

1208
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 1: That's finn for me, but yeah, I know.

1209
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:55,920
Speaker 3: And then then the Me and mar one on the

1210
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:58,120
Speaker 3: other months when I'm not doing the Syria one, I

1211
01:01:58,160 --> 01:01:58,920
Speaker 3: rewrite that one too.

1212
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 1: That's been enjoyable for me. Yeah.

1213
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 2: That's a problem with books, right, Yeah.

1214
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can keep writing them as it turns out. Yeah,

1215
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 3: after you hear this, I'm doing an event to raise

1216
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 3: money for Rajava Rashava Cutistan, Western Kurdistan. But that would

1217
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:18,560
Speaker 3: have been the day before this podcast comes out, so

1218
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 3: you won't be able to attend, but you can still

1219
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 3: donate heavier sore h v YAsO r dot com.

1220
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, if you want to read a book of

1221
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 1: mine and imagine it's in my voice, My most recent

1222
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 1: book is called The Sapling Cage. It came out from

1223
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 1: the feminist press earlier this year, I want to say,

1224
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 1: October twenty fourth. I'm not actually sure, and it is

1225
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:44,240
Speaker 1: about a young trans witch, and it is not technically

1226
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 1: a ya. It is technically a crossover somehow different, and

1227
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I actually do know the differences, but to

1228
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 1: me it's a pedantic difference. But I guess it's not.

1229
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm telling you about this, but

1230
01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 1: you can read the book where I don't discuss that,

1231
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 1: but instead discuss the coming of age of a transwitch

1232
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 1: and a fantasy world. And it's not even mostly about gender.

1233
01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:07,840
Speaker 1: It's mostly a heavy handed metaphor about climate change. Don't worry. Wait,

1234
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 1: that doesn't make it sound better, but I'm sure.

1235
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:16,160
Speaker 2: It's much lighter of a read than you thought. It's

1236
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:17,800
Speaker 2: just a metaphor for climacy.

1237
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, see, exactly, you understand. Anyway, you can catch us

1238
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 1: next week, well, probably just me of the three of us,

1239
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:28,439
Speaker 1: but maybe who knows on Cool People Who Did Cool

1240
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 1: Stuff and we'll talk to you all soon.

1241
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 4: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1242
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 4: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media,

1243
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:45,959
Speaker 4: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

1244
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 4: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1245
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:50,680
Speaker 1: Get your podcasts.