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Speaker 1: The postcard shows the Twin Towers on fire, rendered artistically

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Speaker 1: in black and white, haunting monochromatic carnage compressed onto four

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Speaker 1: by six cardstock. The view is from Brooklyn. You can

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Speaker 1: tell because the South Tower burns to the left. Smoke

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Speaker 1: rises up to a jagged line mimicking the edge of

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Speaker 1: a burnt piece of paper. At the top, in calligraphy,

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Speaker 1: it says, everyone who knew me before eleven believes I'm dead.

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Speaker 1: From my Heart Radio, this is missing on nine eleven,

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Speaker 1: The story of one woman who vanished on the eve

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Speaker 1: of history and my quest to find her. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: John Wallzac. In November two thousand four, a man named

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Speaker 1: Frank Warren created an art project called post Secret. The

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Speaker 1: idea was simple and brilliant. Write a secret on a postcard,

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Speaker 1: mail it to him anonymously, and if it was good,

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Speaker 1: he would post it on his blog. It quickly blew up,

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Speaker 1: landing Frank's speaking gigs and book deals and permeating pop

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Speaker 1: culture to appearing most notably in the music video for

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Speaker 1: the hit two thousand five song Dirty Little Secret by

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Speaker 1: the All American Rejects. Post Secret had something for everyone.

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Speaker 1: Writer's got catharsis a chance to share deep, dark personal truths.

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Speaker 1: Readers got voyeurism plus an opportunity to see who shared

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Speaker 1: their secrets. And Frank got thousands of postcards, including the

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Speaker 1: nine eleven postcard. By now it's one of his most famous.

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Speaker 1: He even incorporated it into a Ted talk. It's a remarkable,

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Speaker 1: mind boggling singular secret, the idea that someone quote died

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Speaker 1: on nine eleven. But hey, guess what they're alive. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's bonkers. Of course, I wanted to learn more about

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Speaker 1: the postcard. When was it mailed, where was it mailed from?

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Speaker 1: Could snay Ha have sent it? And by the way,

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Speaker 1: I'll put it on Twitter at at John wallzac j

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Speaker 1: O n w A l c z A K. In

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Speaker 1: June two thousand and six, snay Haunts Disappearance got a

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Speaker 1: burst of attention when New York Magazine ran an article

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Speaker 1: on it. That article, by Mark Fast is the reason

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Speaker 1: why it didn't just fade away, why it lives on today.

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Speaker 1: For the first time, people seriously considered the idea that

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Speaker 1: snay Ha used nine eleven to run away, to voluntarily disappear,

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Speaker 1: to essentially fake her owned So I wanted to know

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Speaker 1: did Frank get the mysterious postcard before or after the

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Speaker 1: article ran. If before, I'd be more inclined to think

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Speaker 1: it's legit. If after, though, especially right after, I'd be

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Speaker 1: more inclined to think it's a hoax, a fake, bullshit

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Speaker 1: secret sent in by publicity hungry crank. Unfortunately, Frank wouldn't

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Speaker 1: tell me when he got the postcard, so I bypassed

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Speaker 1: him www dot archive dot org copies of his old site,

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Speaker 1: and then there it was. The postcard first published on

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Speaker 1: March fourth, two thousand five, fifteen months before the New

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Speaker 1: York article. Now, obviously that doesn't prove it's legit, but

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Speaker 1: for argument's sake, let's say that it is someone thought

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Speaker 1: to have died on eleven actually survived and never came

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Speaker 1: forward except through this anonymous postcard. Well, who sent it.

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Speaker 1: The list of possible candidates is extremely short because there's

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Speaker 1: irrefutable proof that most nine eleven victims died d n A, eyewitnesses,

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Speaker 1: phone calls, etcetera. With snay Haa, though there's nothing, no evidence.

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Speaker 1: So yes, she is at the top of my list

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Speaker 1: of who could have sent it if it's legit. Let

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Speaker 1: me say also that although Frank wouldn't tell me when

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Speaker 1: he got the postcard. He did send me a high

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Speaker 1: resolution image of it, and not gonna lie, the first

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Speaker 1: thing I did was throw it into Photoshop to see

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Speaker 1: if I can make out anything like a postmark through

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Speaker 1: the image on the front alas no luck, but it

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Speaker 1: was worth a shot. Finally, I asked an art expert

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Speaker 1: to look at the postcard. He told me that whoever

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Speaker 1: drew the towers likely used either a graphite pencil or

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Speaker 1: soft charcoal. That's stuck with me. Remember in the mid nineties,

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Speaker 1: snay Hall left med school for a year and spent

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Speaker 1: six or seven months painting in Italy. Many people who

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Speaker 1: knew her, including Dr E one of her supervised there's

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Speaker 1: at Cabrini Medical Center, said she wanted to be an artist,

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Speaker 1: not a doctor. I can't describe her paintings and detail

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Speaker 1: I vaguely remember. I just remember she was always sketching,

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Speaker 1: and I remember commenting at times that they were beautiful,

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Speaker 1: and she would write she liked writing, and so I

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Speaker 1: saw some for writing. She like kind of showed them

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Speaker 1: to me when she was helping me write something. So

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Speaker 1: when you say sketching, um, do you remember was it pencil?

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Speaker 1: Charcoal pencil or charcoal. I don't remember colors. The first

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Speaker 1: time I spoke to Dr E by phone, I asked

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Speaker 1: if she knew about the postcard, if she had ever

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Speaker 1: seen it. She said no, So I emailed it to her. Wow. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's really creepy, right, that's very bizarre for whoever said that,

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Speaker 1: whoever sent that. Doctor E has long believed that snay

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Speaker 1: How used nine eleven as cover to escape to start

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Speaker 1: a new life. The snay How she knew, both professionally

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Speaker 1: and personally, was unhappy. She wanted to escape. Is it

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Speaker 1: just your gut feeling or do you have you have

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Speaker 1: anything to indicate that that might have been the case. No,

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Speaker 1: So just to go up feeling. But just knowing her,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, there's no way, Like she's out there.

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Speaker 1: I really believe she's alive. Just my strong, strong up feeling.

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Speaker 1: I just knew her personality too. Well. I don't see her.

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Speaker 1: I just don't see your running to the the building. Number one, Sorry,

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Speaker 1: I don't see her doing that. And number two, I

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Speaker 1: she was so like, kind of manipulative and bright, and

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Speaker 1: you know she could play people, you know. Mark Boguton,

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Speaker 1: the attorney hired by snayhouse husband Ron after nine eleven

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Speaker 1: doesn't buy it could be that she ran away for

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Speaker 1: whatever reason, was living in European drinking espresso at some

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Speaker 1: cafe somewhere in either large meetings the size or small

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Speaker 1: European city. It's one possibility. But in order for that

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Speaker 1: to be feasible, they have to he should have some

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Speaker 1: means of support that have to have been some type

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Speaker 1: of evidence of preparation, bank withdrawals, credit card expenditures, anything

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Speaker 1: like that. And they went through all the credit card records, records,

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Speaker 1: bank records, they went through you know, whatever computer history

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Speaker 1: she had and things like that. There's no evidence of

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Speaker 1: any type of preparation, any means of financial preparation for

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Speaker 1: any type of fugitive secretive existence. And also there were

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Speaker 1: just some basic things like when Ron got to the apartment,

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Speaker 1: her travel papers with her passport was in the apartment.

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Speaker 1: I believe even he's like, her eyeglasses were in the apartment.

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Speaker 1: So people that say that she just decided she saw

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Speaker 1: what happened and decided to up and flee and take

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Speaker 1: advantage of the moment, that's so, that's crazy. How many

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Speaker 1: people did that. I'm like, look at this. The trade center.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to Paris and we will find me. Now,

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Speaker 1: I'm not letting, I'm not thinking my glasses the right passport. No, No,

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Speaker 1: that's crazy. It's just loot. Chris, He's not wrong. It

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Speaker 1: is ludicrous at least the idea. Retired NYPD detective Richard Stark,

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Speaker 1: who investigated the case, also thinks it's crazy. How does

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Speaker 1: somebody just get a new passport? No, I d that

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Speaker 1: quick and just disappear. But she planned it. But I

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Speaker 1: don't see that either. Would that be so hard though?

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Speaker 1: If I'm having personal problems and you know, this is

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Speaker 1: twenty years ago, so when technology was more in its

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Speaker 1: infancy to what convinces you that it would be so

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Speaker 1: difficult to disappear? Because so many people, so many thousands

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Speaker 1: and tens of thousands of people do it every year.

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Speaker 1: What makes you doubt that? In particular because it a

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Speaker 1: closeness to her mother. But she couldn't do that to

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Speaker 1: a family, not Ron maybe I don't know, but father,

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Speaker 1: no way, they were very close family photos I saw

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Speaker 1: and she told her mother every day. This is the

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Speaker 1: key piece of evidence most people cite to write off

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Speaker 1: the idea that snay Haw used nine eleven as cover

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Speaker 1: to voluntarily disappear. She loved her mom. She wouldn't do

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Speaker 1: that to her family. I get it. But every year,

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Speaker 1: all over the globe, people run off. It's an age

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Speaker 1: old story. Father's abandoned children, husbands, their wives, children, their parents.

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Speaker 1: No one wants to think someone they love could just

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Speaker 1: run away, but thousands do every year. White Detective Stark,

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Speaker 1: you might say, well, what about her passport, her credit card,

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Speaker 1: her glasses. Wouldn't she need papers, wouldn't she need help?

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Speaker 1: I'll concede that, yes, it would be nearly impossible for

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Speaker 1: someone to spontaneously run off and escape detection without some help.

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Speaker 1: But remember, say stayed somewhere on the night of September ten.

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Speaker 1: She stayed with someone, and that person never came forward.

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Speaker 1: So can I see that person helping Snayha escape? Yes?

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Speaker 1: I can say Snayha woke up on nine eleven, turn

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Speaker 1: on a TV and saw the attacks. Maybe she'd decided

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Speaker 1: to stay put wherever she slept a night of the tenth,

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Speaker 1: and then later decided not to go home, or say

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Speaker 1: she was walking home, saw the attacks, turned away and

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Speaker 1: melted back into the city. Then what multiple studies have

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Speaker 1: examined the behavior of people who voluntarily and spontaneously disappeared

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Speaker 1: and were later found in a paper titled Living Absence

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Speaker 1: The Strange Geographies of Missing People. One woman said, I

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Speaker 1: felt free when I left. As soon as I walked

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Speaker 1: out the door, I felt free. Researchers found that women

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Speaker 1: were more likely than men to plan in absence, but

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Speaker 1: planning usually occupied only a small window of time. Many

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Speaker 1: people who chose to disappear did so without any idea

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Speaker 1: of how long they would actually be gone. They just

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Speaker 1: decided to leave, then figured out what to do. Most

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Speaker 1: began by walking in urban environments. One woman told researchers

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Speaker 1: my mind was going nineteen to a dozen. I could

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Speaker 1: sit still. I had to keep moving because my mind

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Speaker 1: was in such disarray. The pacing was to try to

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Speaker 1: keep up with the anxiety I was feeling inside. I

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Speaker 1: just desperately needed to keep on the move all the time.

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Speaker 1: And then when I started walking along in the streets,

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Speaker 1: I was walking really quite quickly. Initially, the decision to

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Speaker 1: move was just a physical need to move. The pacing

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Speaker 1: up and down, and the stomach churning was getting so

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Speaker 1: intense it was painful. So the only thing that seemed

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Speaker 1: to relieve it was walking fast. Researchers learned that people

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Speaker 1: who voluntarily vanished went to great lengths to keep their

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Speaker 1: location secret. They changed their physical appearance and clothes. They

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Speaker 1: wore dark clothing and or clothing to conceal their face.

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Speaker 1: They used fake names, and their immediate journeys were nonlinear,

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Speaker 1: characterized by circles, loops, or squares lost in chaotic thought.

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Speaker 1: When considering whether or not to return home to family

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Speaker 1: and friends, they were racked with gilt, uncertainty, and fear

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Speaker 1: fear of how they would be received as that person

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Speaker 1: who did that to their family voluntarily. A second study

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Speaker 1: characterized the absence of people who voluntarily disappeared as quote

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Speaker 1: accidentally deliberate, or enacted as an unplanned crisis. A third

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Speaker 1: study listed common factors which led adults to voluntarily disappear,

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Speaker 1: including historic and current traumatic experiences, strong emotions related to

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Speaker 1: being unable to cope, feeling trapped and powerless to talk

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Speaker 1: about or share their feelings, and stress and depression. Initially,

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Speaker 1: when they escaped, they felt elation, but soon that jubilant

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Speaker 1: feeling was replaced by quote crisis mobility. They tried hard

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Speaker 1: to avoid detection to buy space and time to think,

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Speaker 1: to decide whether or not to go home. I knew

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Speaker 1: I had to stay away from authority, and I had

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Speaker 1: to stay away from people I knew because they were

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Speaker 1: already looking for me. For weeks, I just traveled about

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Speaker 1: and after every couple of days, I get myself some

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Speaker 1: fresh clothes, go and get cleaned up and washed and

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Speaker 1: dumped my other stuff. I didn't want to be seen.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to be found. That's the hardest thing

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Speaker 1: coming home again. Going away is easy. Shortly after nine eleven,

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Speaker 1: there was at least one possible sighting of snay Ha.

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Speaker 1: On September thousand one, a reverend named Charles Bakin spoke

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Speaker 1: with a woman he thought was snay Ha at a

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Speaker 1: doctor's office in Manhasset, Long Island. He told the NYPD

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Speaker 1: that the woman strongly resembled snay Ha, but he wasn't

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Speaker 1: sure it was her. The woman had a strong Indian accent,

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Speaker 1: he said, but snay Haa did not have an accent.

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Speaker 1: Neither the NYPD nor her family think the woman Baking

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Speaker 1: spotted was actually snay Ha. Unfortunately I can't interview Bachan.

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Speaker 1: He died in on January two thousand four. The NYPD

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Speaker 1: got an alert that ongoing activity associated with snay Haa

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Speaker 1: was connected to an address in Los Angeles. By this point,

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Speaker 1: Detective Stark was no longer on the case, so a

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Speaker 1: different investigator picked it up. He asked the l a

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Speaker 1: p D to send officers to the address. Was snay

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Speaker 1: Hall alive? Did she live there? Well, she didn't live there,

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Speaker 1: but Ron did. It appears the alert was a false alarm,

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Speaker 1: some kind of database error. Ron spoke with two l

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Speaker 1: a p D cops then called the NYPD. In July

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Speaker 1: two thousand three, he said he moved back to California,

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Speaker 1: his home state, to restart his life to pick up

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Speaker 1: the pieces. After nine eleven, the new YPD investigator asked

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Speaker 1: Ron again about the mysterious phone call placed at four

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Speaker 1: oh five am on nine eleven from his apartment landline

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Speaker 1: to his cell phone. Ron Quote thought about it for

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Speaker 1: a while and came to the conclusion he was so

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Speaker 1: distraught over his wife that he woke up still half

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Speaker 1: asleep and called his cell phone to check the messages

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Speaker 1: to see if she called. The investigator told ron Quote,

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Speaker 1: there's no physical evidence that supports the theory that his

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Speaker 1: wife died in the world Trade Center incident. There are

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Speaker 1: no witnesses to her being there. Obviously ron knew that,

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Speaker 1: but still he assumed it's probably how Snaha died at

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Speaker 1: the Trade Center on nine eleven. When I started investigating

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Speaker 1: this case, one of the first things I did was

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Speaker 1: searched for signs of snay Haa on social media and

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Speaker 1: in public databases along shot I know, so I was

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Speaker 1: surprised when sna did show up in databases after two

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Speaker 1: thousand one, linked to addresses in California, including the home

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Speaker 1: where ron lived, the address the L A p D visited.

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Speaker 1: I also found a LinkedIn profile connected to one of

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Speaker 1: snay house email addresses, strange for multiple reasons. LinkedIn wasn't

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Speaker 1: even founded until two thousand three, two years after nine eleven.

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Speaker 1: The profile has no activity and no friends. It's listed

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Speaker 1: in the United Air Memorates or U A E. I

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Speaker 1: reached out to that snay Hah, but she never responded,

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Speaker 1: complicating things and providing a probable answer. There's a different

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Speaker 1: snaiha and without any fillip into U A E. The

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Speaker 1: likeliest answer then to explain why snay has shows up

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Speaker 1: post nine eleven connected to addresses in California and to

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Speaker 1: a LinkedIn profile in the u a E is simple

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Speaker 1: database errors. Earlier this year, during COVID, I sat down

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Speaker 1: outside freezing at a Brooklyn cafe with an expert on

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Speaker 1: pseudo side faking your own debt, Elizabeth Greenwood, and the

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Speaker 1: author of Playing Dead, a Journey through the world of

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Speaker 1: death fraud. Okay, and tell us a little bit about

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Speaker 1: the book. So, Playing Dead is a non fiction book

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Speaker 1: about what it would take to fake your death in

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Speaker 1: the twenty one century. I found myself mired in Sorry,

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Speaker 1: funny Bonnie is Greenwood's dog. We'll take that when I

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Speaker 1: get funny, come here, you're being a diva on set. Um.

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Speaker 1: I found myself in a lot of student loan debt,

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Speaker 1: like so many of my generation, to the tune of

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Speaker 1: six figures, and wasn't really thrilled about that. Wasn't really

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Speaker 1: thrilled about my life decisions that brought me there. Um.

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Speaker 1: So I just had the kind of fantasy of, man,

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Speaker 1: what if I could find a rickety country the beach

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Speaker 1: and no extradition policy, It just slip through the cracks.

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Speaker 1: And a friend of mine very jokingly said, oh, or

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Speaker 1: you could fake your death, And just that idea really

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Speaker 1: got me sent to the races about what is that about?

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Speaker 1: Can people still do that in the twenty one century

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Speaker 1: with all this technology? Can that help you or hinder you?

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Speaker 1: And you know, I wanted to approach this question from

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Speaker 1: a really broad purview, you know, because we have heard

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Speaker 1: so many great pop culture lure about Elvis faking his

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Speaker 1: death for example. UM So I was just really interested

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Speaker 1: in approaching this topic very broadly, very holistically, to see

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Speaker 1: what this thing is all about. Is it possible to

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Speaker 1: fake your death or to disappear and have nobody find

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Speaker 1: you in or even to say twenty years ago in

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Speaker 1: two thousand, two thousand one, Well, anything's possible. The problem

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Speaker 1: is proving a negative is really hard to do. Right So,

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Speaker 1: if we think the people successfully fake their death or disappeared,

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Speaker 1: we don't really have proof of that. Of course, if

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Speaker 1: it's a fake death, you don't have a body you

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Speaker 1: can prove to say I did this. I think the

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Speaker 1: real burden of proof kind of falls on people not

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Speaker 1: being found, right, on people um not having um, you know,

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Speaker 1: anything turn up to suggest that they they did in

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Speaker 1: fact fake something. So it's a kind of tricky thing

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Speaker 1: to quote unquote prove. Can you talk about the top

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Speaker 1: motivations people have for faking their own deaths, and then

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Speaker 1: kind of the breakdown between men and women. So I

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Speaker 1: think that the type of fake death we hear about

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Speaker 1: the most is UH for life insurance fraud. So this

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Speaker 1: is a kind of fake death for profit. It's almost

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Speaker 1: too tempting, right You see that you can take out

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Speaker 1: this policy and pay a fraction of what your eventual

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Speaker 1: payout would be in your death, and people think, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to wait and I want to be

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Speaker 1: around for that money. So that's a really common one.

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Speaker 1: Of course, there's a lot of life insurance fraud cases

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Speaker 1: where they'll try to file the claim still without a body.

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Speaker 1: Um in those take seven years to pay out, or

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Speaker 1: people in certain cases will try to pass off bodies

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Speaker 1: that are not theirs as their own, which is a

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Speaker 1: whole other thing. And from my experience and from interviewing

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Speaker 1: various private investigators who look at this sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: it does seem to skew very male um this particular

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Speaker 1: type of death fraud, but in general, faking your own

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Speaker 1: death is very much a male thing, right right, So

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Speaker 1: again this gets us into this fishy burden of proof.

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Speaker 1: So the people who fake their deaths and get caught

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Speaker 1: our men. Right, So people who fake their deaths and

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Speaker 1: don't get caught we don't know about. We presume they're dead.

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Speaker 1: So it's very possible that these are more women who

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Speaker 1: do that. But the ones that we can prove who

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Speaker 1: get caught, do you tend to be men? It's I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to I'm trying to let you speak and not

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Speaker 1: laugh too much as you're speaking. But um, why do

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Speaker 1: you think women would be better at faking their own deaths? Well?

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Speaker 1: I think that women. If we're going to go with

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Speaker 1: the premise that women don't fake their deaths as much,

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Speaker 1: which I think is true, and they don't fake their

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Speaker 1: deaths because women just you know, are culturally conditioned to

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Speaker 1: be caretakers, to be the people who stick around. We

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Speaker 1: have a term deadbeat dad. We don't have a term

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Speaker 1: called deadbeat mom, even though of course that happens in

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Speaker 1: certain cases. Women are just feel i think, a greater

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Speaker 1: burden of responsibility for their families, for their lives, for

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Speaker 1: their dependence. So for a woman to fake her death,

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Speaker 1: the motive I think would have to be much more

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Speaker 1: serious than trying to cash out on an insurance fraud

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Speaker 1: policy trying to light out with your second emily, which

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Speaker 1: is another reason men fake their debts. Uh. So, I

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Speaker 1: think when women do fake their deaths, they are doing

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Speaker 1: it for much more serious reasons, usually for threat of violence,

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Speaker 1: usually because they're really trying to save their own lives.

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Speaker 1: There for the stakes are just a lot higher. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I think that at least in a lot

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Speaker 1: of the men that I spoke with who fake their debts,

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Speaker 1: there was this kind of like oh wow factor that

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Speaker 1: they wanted to share with people, so they would do it,

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Speaker 1: get away with it, and then like lab to people

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Speaker 1: that they did it because they are so proud of themselves.

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Speaker 1: I don't think women have that same ego thrust. Of course,

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking in very broad generalizations right now, but when

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Speaker 1: I look at the breakdown, when I look at the

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Speaker 1: different cases, that that does seem to be a truism.

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Speaker 1: So in terms of motives, am I pronouncing his last

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Speaker 1: named Frank herne Okay. Frank said, typically his client Frank

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Speaker 1: by the way, helps people disappear um. Typically client motives

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Speaker 1: number one money, number two, violence, and the bronze medal,

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Speaker 1: occasionally love. And he said between two thousand one to twelve,

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Speaker 1: he helped about fifty people disappear and charged about thirty

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Speaker 1: dollars per case, but that if a woman came to

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Speaker 1: him an imminent danger that he would not charge them. So,

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Speaker 1: what are some of the steps that you would take

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Speaker 1: to fake your own death? And is it something that

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Speaker 1: you think you could do on a spur of the

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Speaker 1: moment if you hadn't been planning it before, and get

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Speaker 1: away with it. Um. So to the latter part of

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Speaker 1: your question, absolutely not, I think to successfully fake your death.

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Speaker 1: And again this is coming from taking from the experiences

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Speaker 1: of people who did fake their deaths successfully for you know,

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Speaker 1: a matter of years. In some cases, it's really hard

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Speaker 1: to speak to these ones that we just don't know

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Speaker 1: that are presumed dead. Of course, these are people who

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Speaker 1: put in lots and lots of very thoughtful planning about

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Speaker 1: what they were going to do later on, how they

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Speaker 1: were going to support themselves, how they were really going

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Speaker 1: to stay off the grade or at least cut off

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Speaker 1: from their previous life. So to the former part of

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Speaker 1: your question about how you would fake your death, this

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Speaker 1: is a question I asked a lot to everyone, from

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Speaker 1: people who did it themselves, to investigators to law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: and they always came back with the same question to meet,

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Speaker 1: which is, well, who's looking for you? If you are

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Speaker 1: a hedge fund person like Sam Israel the Third who

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Speaker 1: staged his death in two thousand and eight after absconding

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Speaker 1: um with half a billion dollars of investor money, there

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Speaker 1: there's quite a few people looking for you, right, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, from the FBI to private investigators, sec like

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Speaker 1: you name it. If you're just a regular Joe who

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Speaker 1: isn't evading law enforcement or legal consequences or debt collectors

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Speaker 1: like of the FBI, or you know, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: mafia level or something, people who really care about their money, right,

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Speaker 1: I think that it's it's a bit easier, So it's

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Speaker 1: really a question about who cares about you. That also

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Speaker 1: kind of circles back to family. I mean, if you

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Speaker 1: are someone who doesn't have a lot of families strange

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Speaker 1: from your family, where where the family who's left behind

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Speaker 1: and grieving and confused, isn't going to hire a private

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Speaker 1: investigator to look for you, you know, that's also a

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Speaker 1: bit easier. So I think that's that that's really the

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Speaker 1: big question. And when it comes to how you do

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Speaker 1: it and the level of subterfuge. You need to employees

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Speaker 1: who's looking for you. So some of these cases, I'm

404
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:50,399
Speaker 1: gonna list them off, And then I was wondering if

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Speaker 1: you could talk about them the Sam Israel the Third,

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Speaker 1: Benny went John Darwin and then Lisa boosin y Um,

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Speaker 1: can you just kind of run us through and tell

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Speaker 1: us some about these individual cases? Sure? So. Sam Israel

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Speaker 1: the Third was the founder of the Bayou Hedge Fund Group,

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Speaker 1: and in two thousand and eight it came to light

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Speaker 1: that it had been a rather large ponzi scheme. At

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Speaker 1: that time, it was the largest ponzi scheme in US

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Speaker 1: history until Bernie made Offs came out came to light

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Speaker 1: just a few months later. There's a great book about

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Speaker 1: Sam Israel the Third called Octopus by Gee Lawson, which

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Speaker 1: I highly recommend because Sam faking his death is like

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Speaker 1: the least crazy thing in Sam's story. So, Anny you,

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Speaker 1: he had stolen essentially this money and it all came out.

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Speaker 1: He faked his death by staging what was to appear

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Speaker 1: suicidal plunge off the Bear Mountain Bridge in upstate New York,

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Speaker 1: about thirty miles north of the city. He parked his

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Speaker 1: car on the bridge in the windshield. In the dust

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Speaker 1: on the windshield wrote suicide is Painless also happens to

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Speaker 1: be the theme song from mash Uh. So he jumped

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Speaker 1: off the bridge. He landed in construction nets that had

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Speaker 1: been strung below, and you know, kind of mcgever style

427
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: like hand over hand, crawled out to the other side,

428
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: to the New York state side, where he was picked

429
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 1: up by an accomplice and then lit out in an

430
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: RV and no one found him for almost a month.

431
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: He was staying at campgrounds around New York. In New England,

432
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 1: he saw himself on America's Most Wanted at one point,

433
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 1: and he turned himself in. So even with this many

434
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 1: people looking for him, and people were pressing his family

435
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,120
Speaker 1: and telling them they were going to go to jail

436
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: and all this. You know, he turned himself in, So

437
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: make what you will of that. From the start, absolutely yeah,

438
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: I think Frank said it that. Do you know the

439
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: FBI didn't show up and say, oh, he left a

440
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 1: suicide note, let's go home. Guys like you know this,

441
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: this was suspicious from the beginning, again because of the

442
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: circumstances of his life at the time. So the next one,

443
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: Benny went disappeared in nine UH and he left behind

444
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: a grieving fiance and a four year old daughter from

445
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: a previous marriage. I guess you know, i'd ask you

446
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: in relation to that, the people that whose cases you examined,

447
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,399
Speaker 1: or the people that you interviewed, what kind of role

448
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 1: did family play, how close they what are their family?

449
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 1: How many people were looking for them? Were you know,

450
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: certain people were willing to do this even if they

451
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: were very close to or loved members of their family. Yeah.

452
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: The family piece is really interesting because in a lot

453
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: of cases, some people's family members, whether it's a spouse

454
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: or a son or daughter, we're in on it with them,

455
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: especially in the life insurance fraud cases, because you need

456
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: someone to claim the UH policy the payoff right, so

457
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: they'd have to be conspiring with you. In certain cases,

458
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: people had no idea, and you know, did go to

459
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: a great deal of trouble and expense and hiring investigators

460
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: to check into all these things. But family, interestingly enough,

461
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: is one of the main ways in which people give

462
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: themselves up. Because I think we have this idea that

463
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: when we fake our own deaths were leaving behind who

464
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: we were becoming someone else. So there's an example in

465
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: the book to like kind of scale it out for

466
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: people who don't think about faking their deaths all the time.

467
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess there are people out there like that.

468
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: You know, it's the same idea. If you think about

469
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: if you were to move to California, say, and you

470
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: would be this totally different, improved, better optimized version of

471
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: yourself in California. Well, you get to California and ship

472
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: you're still you. If that's the gag, that's kind of

473
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 1: the bad news, right. So when people fake their deaths, similarly,

474
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: they think that they're going to be able to kind

475
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: of leave behind all the parts of themselves that were crappy,

476
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: that had committed crimes, that had made all these terrible mistakes,

477
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: and still maintain some part of them that is precious

478
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: and is special to them. But do you fake your death,

479
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: it really means cutting off everyone and everything. It's a

480
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: complete severing. So the ways in which a lot of

481
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: people have gotten caught over the years is because they

482
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: can't make that clean cut. They still want to call

483
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: mom on her birthday. You still want to check in

484
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: on your daughter and see how things are going, and

485
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: unfortunately you just can't. So We've seen a lot of

486
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: people get caught in that very way. Those those are

487
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: the people who whose families actually believe that their loved

488
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: ones died. But can you talk a little bit about

489
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: some of the people whose families we're in on it?

490
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 1: So John Darwin is probably the most interesting part of

491
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: or case in the book. Can you talk about him? Yeah?

492
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: Absolutely so. John Darwin um is an Englishman and in

493
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: two thousand two he staged his death at sea. He's

494
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: kind of that phrase, okay, I never understand the exception

495
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: that proves the rule these ages as at see, and

496
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: did it quite successfully for I believe almost it's a

497
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: two thousand seven he's got five to six years anyway.

498
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: John Darwin, English guy. He had worked jobs such as

499
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: being a teacher, a prison guard, kind of mid level

500
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 1: um civil servant jobs, and at the time he had

501
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: gotten himself into a bit of real estate and credit

502
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: card debt. So he had the brilliant idea to stage

503
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: this kayaking accident at sea collect life insurance along with

504
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: um wow, an interview. Yeah, what's it called when you

505
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'm saving such a brain fart right now?

506
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: When you um retire like you're like ever, let's say

507
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: yes exactly, thank you, thank you, thank you. It would

508
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 1: have taken me a long time to get there. Thanks

509
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: a lot, and in collect pensions that his wife would

510
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: collect after he was deceased. So one day in March

511
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: two thousand two, Darwin packs his kayak with some dry clothes,

512
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: some food, paddles out, has a few witnesses that see

513
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: him do it. We're walking their dogs on the beach,

514
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 1: capsizes his canoe. They call it canoe in England, it's

515
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: really kayak here, of course, swims to shore. His wife

516
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: a few hours later picks him up. She's in on this,

517
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: of course, and drives him to the train station. He

518
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 1: takes a train to the west coast of England, where

519
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,720
Speaker 1: he then goes and camps out on the beach for

520
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 1: a few months, gets completely gaunt like, grows a weird beard.

521
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 1: All this. A few months later his wife at picks

522
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: him up and brings him back home where he lives

523
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: next door to his own house. So in the intervening time,

524
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: she was completely playing the part of the grieving widow.

525
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: They had two adult sons who thought that their dad

526
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: was dead. Um she let them believe that, and she'd

527
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: started the process of starting to collect some of these payoffs,

528
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: so that the crazy thing about Darwin is that he

529
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: did live next door to his own house. You know,

530
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: his sons would visit here and there, and you know

531
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: he made himself scarce at those times. Of course, just

532
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: to emphasize how crazy this is, in two thousand two,

533
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: John Darwin faked his own death. His wife was in

534
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: on it. He moved home and the entire time his

535
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 1: sons thought he was dead, Darwin didn't get caught. He

536
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 1: did turn himself in eventually. He says it was because

537
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 1: he couldn't take Lyne to his son's anymore. Okay, so

538
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: let's talk specifically about this case. Say, Philip, had you

539
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: heard of her before I contacted? I had not heard

540
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: of her, and I was so excited I saw this

541
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 1: case because I think it's completely fascinating. But no, I

542
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: had not heard of her. Was thirty years old on

543
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 1: nine eleven UM. She was a medical resident, just gribe

544
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: by many people as brilliant, really smart, extroverted, but also troubled,

545
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: maybe dealt with mental illness, substance abuse affairs. Somebody who

546
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: knew her told me that she really didn't want to

547
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: be a doctor, that she came from a conservative, traditional

548
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: Indian family that kind of pushed her into medicine, but

549
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 1: that her love was art and poetry. It seems crazy,

550
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: like it's it's fascinating. And because there is no physical

551
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 1: evidence that she died at the trade center, none of

552
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: there's been no DNA match, none of her belongings have

553
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 1: been positively identified. And when you combine that with the

554
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: fact of who she was as this kind of brilliant,

555
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: confident person, you know, really really smart by all accounts,

556
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: and the fact that nobody knows where she stayed on

557
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: the night of September. If there was someone who could

558
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 1: or would try to successfully pull this off, it seems

559
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: to be heard. So I thought it was fascinating. I

560
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: was reading this book and I didn't know if you

561
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: were aware of this case obviously when I read the book.

562
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: But you say missing person's reports and the immediate wake

563
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: of the attacks climbed over six thousand, but the official

564
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 1: lives lost total two thousand, eight hundred and one at

565
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 1: the first year of commemoration. Of those more than three

566
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: thousand misidentified deaths, forty four were claims for people who

567
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 1: were either still alive or people who did not exist.

568
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 1: So those forty four are numbers that come from um

569
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: what the n y p D called Operation Vulture Sweep,

570
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 1: and that was for people who were just like very

571
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:38,479
Speaker 1: flagrant fraudsters, like inventing a spouse who they say worked

572
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: at Cantor Fitzgerald, and they were really just trying to

573
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: very boldly exploit charities and collect money. And these were

574
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 1: like very easily disproven. And then the next passage, this

575
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: is what really got me, and I I highlighted it.

576
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: I put a bracket, and then I put a giant

577
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: highlighted star on the page. Imagine coming up from the subway,

578
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: recognizing the tragedy, immediately computing it as an opportunity, and

579
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 1: opening and slinking away. Nothing filed, no attempt at life insurance,

580
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 1: just a split second decision to vanish. Why nine eleven,

581
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: Why did you put that in the book before you

582
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: were even aware of this case? Why does it fascinate you?

583
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: You know, I think it's in our whole collective memory.

584
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: It's just such a seared moment for all of us, right,

585
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: it was just like this utter chaos and you couldn't

586
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: wrap your mind around it. Right, So I think the

587
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: idea that someone could make something I don't want to

588
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: necessarily say positive, but that someone could see this utter

589
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,279
Speaker 1: tragedy and destruction and see how a kind of a

590
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: lightbulb moment. I think maybe it's just that contrast that

591
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: is really what kind of gets into my imagination, at

592
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 1: least something that Frank said. He used the phrase austere elegance,

593
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 1: which stuck out to me. Having looked at this case,

594
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:22,919
Speaker 1: what's your general impression, Man, It's so interesting. It's it's

595
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 1: just so fascinating. I mean, there's so many really compelling

596
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: loose ends. She herself is such an interesting person, I think.

597
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 1: I think that's that's what really gets me about this case,

598
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: is that, you know, she seemed to be embroiled in

599
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,720
Speaker 1: quite a bit of paradoxes. You know, I can't, I don't.

600
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: I don't obviously know her. I don't know the situation,

601
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 1: but you know, it sounded like she was in a

602
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: marriage but maybe had other identities that she was trying

603
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,919
Speaker 1: to express at the same time. So I just think

604
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: about her and I think, you know, now you said

605
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 1: this thing about being a doctor but really wanting to

606
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: be an artist. You know, just these forces at her

607
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: that were at odds um and you know, sounds by

608
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: all accounts like a really brilliant and interesting person when

609
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: you think about you're kind of fake death hero, which

610
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: I never found in the course of my research in

611
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: terms of someone who fakes their death for what seems

612
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: like an altruistic or legitimate purpose, someone who's not just

613
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: kind of like a you know, bottom feeder trying to

614
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: scam money out of these things. You know, she seems

615
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 1: like she could be that person. She had maybe some

616
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: interesting motivations. Also, it sounds like had some some trouble

617
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 1: with UM, perhaps substance abuse and as you suggested, mental illness,

618
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: which again, when you think about the mindset of kind

619
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,919
Speaker 1: of desperation of trying to make this calculus add up

620
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: that this is the best course of action, perhaps some

621
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: of those impulses could have led her there. So I

622
00:39:58,000 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 1: think she's so interesting. And then, of course, you know,

623
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: you just have that last image of her, you know,

624
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: the last images of her at Century twenty one buying Lingerie.

625
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: Of course, that's like very lifetime movie and super scintillating,

626
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 1: I guess. But also I think it's that her husband

627
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: said that there was perhaps someone who looked like her

628
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 1: that was seen standing in front of the elevators of

629
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 1: her building and then turning around. I mean, it's all

630
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: just so elliptical and mysterious and just completely fascinating. Well,

631
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 1: the question too, is like she stayed. She either was

632
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 1: alive on the night of September ten or she wasn't.

633
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: And most likely obviously she was alive, so she stayed somewhere.

634
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: So where did she stay the night of September ten?

635
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it's if it was anybody, If it was

636
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: a family member or a friend, I mean, obviously they

637
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 1: would have come forward. So then what what are the alternatives?

638
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: Is that she stayed with someone with whom she was

639
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 1: having an affair maybe and they didn't want to come forward.

640
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 1: But you start to run through your mind. Can am

641
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: I missing anything? Can you think of any logical alternatives?

642
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: And where she might have been the night of the tent? Oh? Me, No,

643
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,919
Speaker 1: definitely not. I mean, I think unfortunately, when we look

644
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 1: at these cases of women in particular disappearing, you know, unfortunately,

645
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: it's usually because they've been abducted and oftentimes murdered. Unfortunately,

646
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: you know it from what I've seen these cases, it's

647
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 1: it's not what we want them to be. It's not

648
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: this projection of sovereignty and freedom and reclamation. It's often

649
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: almost always violence at the hands of someone else. Have

650
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: you ever seen this postcard? No? Oh, that's eerie, right.

651
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,479
Speaker 1: This is a postcard sent to post Secret. It says,

652
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 1: everyone who knew me before nine eleven believes I'm dead

653
00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 1: over a picture of the burning Twin towers. So you've

654
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: never seen that before. So the idea that anybody out there,

655
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:10,760
Speaker 1: that there's somebody out there who use line eleven as

656
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: a cover to to disappear, because you wouldn't even say

657
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: necessarily fake their own death because they didn't cause line eleven,

658
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: I mean, they just do you think that that's feasible

659
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: at all? Gosh? I mean, I've thought about this a

660
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 1: lot over the years, and I have loved to kind

661
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: of think about this dark fantasy of someone who's on

662
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,760
Speaker 1: their way to work on the morning of nine eleven,

663
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 1: gets out of the subway, sees what's going on, and somehow,

664
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 1: in that instant and that split second, is able to

665
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 1: do this calculus and take advantage of that situation for

666
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: the means of disappearing. I think that's more in the realm,

667
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 1: still a fantasy and art. I mean, it just seems

668
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:05,760
Speaker 1: so impossible to not only lay the groundwork. Of course,

669
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 1: during September eleven there was such a great deal of

670
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: chaos that in that initial aftermath, the first few months after,

671
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: when things are in disarray, it seems like you probably

672
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: couldn't you know, been able to get away with it

673
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 1: for for a short period of time. I don't think

674
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 1: in the long run, though, I think there's there's so

675
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: many steps that one needs to take two go about

676
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: making a believable identity that's going to really hold water

677
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 1: over the course of years. Well, when you talk about

678
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,720
Speaker 1: a believable identity, though, I mean, there are eleven million

679
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: undocumented workers in this country who don't all have quote,

680
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: you know, by the legal sense, believable identities. I mean,

681
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,759
Speaker 1: would you really need to have all that lined up?

682
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 1: I mean, what's what would stop you from going to

683
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,399
Speaker 1: make you know, Los Angeles or another city and kind

684
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: of blending in I mean with even without an idea. Sure,

685
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 1: so if you take the example of undocumented workers, you're

686
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: absolutely right. But you know, when we're talking about undocumented workers,

687
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 1: the type of work these people are doing is usually

688
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: off the books, is usually kind of labor that is

689
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: extremely difficult, often very dangerous. The people who are educated,

690
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: um just wouldn't do or won't do for a long

691
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: period of time. So I think when you think about

692
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: having a quote unquote believable identity, you either go very

693
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: kind of analog like in this way where everything's off

694
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: the books, you're staying completely offline, everything's in cash. Or conversely,

695
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: you've invested quite a bit of money and time and

696
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: resources into getting pristine documents, into building a credit history

697
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 1: of another person, so you look like a believable person

698
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 1: who didn't just you was born yesterday and had this

699
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: you know, your thirty seven with a line of credit. Right.

700
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 1: And the third option I guess would be having somebody

701
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 1: in on it who had money or who was willing

702
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: to support you. Right, yeah, but what do you do?

703
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: What do you do though over the long haul? Right? Like,

704
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: that's the question. I mean, I think you can do

705
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,959
Speaker 1: that for a few years maybe, but when you think

706
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: about decades, right, and if you are a person from

707
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 1: a professional background and you do have very specific profile,

708
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: portfolio of interests, it's really hard to just erase all

709
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: of that and become someone so so countered who you

710
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: were The thing is, though, the idea that stay Hot

711
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 1: used nine eleven to disappear twenty years ago and the

712
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:56,280
Speaker 1: idea that she's still alive are two different things. Studies

713
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: show that missing women are at a much higher risk

714
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: of dying by murder or suicide. It's depressing, I know,

715
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 1: But even if Sna did survive, if she did abscond,

716
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: there's no guarantee that she's still alive. She could be

717
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: a Jane Doe somewhere. But if she did successfully disappear,

718
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 1: do he just kind of want to let her disappear

719
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 1: in peace? That's a good question. I think if personally

720
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,479
Speaker 1: I would if I found her somehow, I I would

721
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:29,800
Speaker 1: leave it up to her whether or not she wanted

722
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 1: to come forward. Like that's it's a really good question.

723
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 1: There's there's a good ethical Well, first of all, I

724
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: mean by that point, you know we've made it pretty

725
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 1: far in the investigation. No, that's that's a great ethical question. Um,

726
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: I haven't thought too much. No, I don't know the

727
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 1: answer myself. I just think if she's able to get

728
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 1: away with it for this long, what I would what

729
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,240
Speaker 1: I would do is personally, if I were to magically

730
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: find her, I would approach her. I talked to her,

731
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: I wouldn't you know all of a sudden blast out

732
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: that I had found her where she was. It's not

733
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: my place to judge, and I think I probably would

734
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: treat her like a source. I'd probably say, I have

735
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 1: all these questions. You absolutely fascinate me, You fascinate the world.

736
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: This is incredible. But I'm I'm happy to respect your

737
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: anonymity and your privacy in terms of where you are,

738
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: what your identity is. But it's it's tough as a journalist.

739
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 1: And I also just look at there are other people

740
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 1: doing it and doing it with like really like some

741
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 1: of the like some of the headlines from when she disappeared,

742
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: like under you know that the post it was like

743
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: it's like the most like salacious thing, and some of

744
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 1: some ofhow it was initially reported or even in the

745
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: court case it was like she's conducting bisexual acts and

746
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: it's like, what you know is this like you imagine

747
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 1: that like puritan like, oh, we are in a court

748
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:55,879
Speaker 1: of law, like but um no, I mean, that's that's

749
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: a good question. But I guess you know that's it's

750
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 1: a fair ethical point. I would ask you separate from

751
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:06,280
Speaker 1: the show separate. Wouldn't this wouldn't she be? I feel

752
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: like I don't want to say the most magical example. Absolutely.

753
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 1: I mean people ask me all the time like, oh, so,

754
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: did you ever talk to someone who faked their death

755
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: and they were still presumed dead? And no, I never have, like,

756
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 1: never got that phone call. I would love to and

757
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 1: I'm available if anyone wants to talk, but um no,

758
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 1: she would be everything to speak to that experience. If

759
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:35,720
Speaker 1: presuming she did disappear and has managed to stay gone

760
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: for almost twenty years now, I would live to talk

761
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: to her, just to have a coffee with her and

762
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 1: ask her what that's been like and everything, and try

763
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 1: to leave it at that, let her go back to

764
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:49,920
Speaker 1: her wherever she is. Well, I guess I would ask

765
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: you the same question, because you know I'm working on

766
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:56,359
Speaker 1: this project specifically, but you worked on the broader perspective here.

767
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 1: How would you handle that ethically? Let's say you were

768
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: resar saying this story and you found her sending at

769
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 1: a cafe or an apartment Los Angeles or something. How

770
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 1: would how would you handle it? If she said, I

771
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 1: don't want you to report that I'm still alive. Would

772
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: you respect that or would you find a balance between

773
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 1: that's a doozy, that's a real doozy. I think what

774
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 1: I would do is I would try to stay on

775
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 1: her as gingerly as possible. That's always kind of my

776
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 1: m O in probably years two. When you go into

777
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 1: this kind of work, you don't easily take no for

778
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 1: an answer. So I think I would try to stay

779
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 1: on her, build some trust, hopefully. I think I would

780
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: try to meet or talk on the phone under the

781
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 1: cover of total anonymity, total privacy, And I don't know,

782
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: maybe it's cowardly, but maybe there's some way you can

783
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 1: split the difference where you can say you did speak

784
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: with her, but not reveal any of the details she

785
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 1: I agree with you, Like, it's really hard, especially this

786
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 1: Your family's out there, you know, and if they would

787
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 1: have who knows me. Maybe the families usually know more

788
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,799
Speaker 1: than they led on. So yeah, you have all these

789
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 1: ethical and then maybe even legal implications, So like, I

790
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:21,919
Speaker 1: don't know, it's interesting. You'd also have to be really

791
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 1: careful about how you approach her. It couldn't just be

792
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna place a phone call and then the

793
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: minute that somebody gets a hold hold of my phone records. Well,

794
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 1: the book is playing dead. We're not live, but I'm

795
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 1: going to give you the br treat. My guest today

796
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:43,879
Speaker 1: on this cold COVID death winter about to snow day

797
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 1: as we're shivering, is Elizabeth Greenwood. Did I miss anything?

798
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 1: Is there anything else you want to say? Any important points?

799
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 1: I don't think those really good questions. So in the end,

800
00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 1: can we rule out the idea that stay hot use

801
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 1: nine eleven as cover to voluntarily disappear? No, I don't

802
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 1: think so. She was a brilliant woman, unhappy with life,

803
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: her marriage, and her profession. The idea that she ran away, well,

804
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: the only remarkable thing about it is nine eleven. Otherwise

805
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 1: it's not unique. Thousands of people disappear every year. The

806
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 1: postcard says, everyone who knew me before nine eleven believes

807
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 1: I'm dead. Change nine eleven to any other day? Is

808
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:38,760
Speaker 1: it really that crazy? Next week we're going to release

809
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 1: a special bonus episode. We'll be back with a brand

810
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 1: new full episode the week after that. Homework One, did

811
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,839
Speaker 1: you successfully fake your own death and get away with it?

812
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 1: Do you know anyone else who did? Two? Did you

813
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 1: send a nine eleven postcard to post Secret? If so,

814
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 1: whether it's real or oaks, I'd love to hear from you.

815
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,320
Speaker 1: I'll protect your identity. You can reach us by phone

816
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 1: at one eight three three new Tips that's one eight

817
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 1: three three six three nine eight four seven seven again

818
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: one eight three three six three nine eight four seven seven,

819
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,399
Speaker 1: or you can reach us via email at tips at

820
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,359
Speaker 1: iHeart media dot com. That's Tips, t I p s

821
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 1: at iHeart media dot com. Ben Bollen is our executive producer.

822
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 1: Paul Decan is our supervising producer, Chris Brown is our

823
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 1: assistant producer, Seth Nicholas Johnson is our producer. Sam T.

824
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 1: Garden is our research assistant, and I'm your host and

825
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,760
Speaker 1: executive producer, John Wallzack. Cover art by Pam Peacock. Please

826
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: donate to the Internet Archive. It's a vital resource. Go

827
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:51,839
Speaker 1: to archive dot org slash donate Missing Person Studied participants

828
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:55,720
Speaker 1: voiced by Samantha McVeigh, Any Reese, Brandy Supra, Paul Decan,

829
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 1: and Alice Chelf Sara Wong. Special thanks to Tamika Campbell

830
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 1: at iHeart and at Christoph Zapprey in New Orleans. Also

831
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: thank you to Dr e Mark bogutin Detective Richard Stark

832
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:09,839
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Greenwood and ASoP Rock. Go by Elizabeth's book Playing Dead,

833
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 1: a journey through the world of death fraud. She's a

834
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: great writer and it's a fun book. Elizabeth also has

835
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 1: a brand new book coming out this month called Love Lockdown, Dating,

836
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 1: Sex and Marriage in America's Prisons. Original theme music by

837
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 1: ASoP Rock. Check out Asop's website at ASoP rock dot com.

838
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at at john wallzac

839
00:53:30,239 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 1: j O n w A l c z a K.

840
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 1: If you like the show, check out our first season,

841
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 1: Missing in Alaska, about the nineteen seventy two disappearance of

842
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 1: two congressmen. Missing on nine eleven, is a co production

843
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Greenfork Media.