1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Alsome Media. 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, welcome back to Behind the Bastards. I'm 3 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 2: Robert Evans, and I am again alone without my producer, 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 2: Sophie Lichterman. 5 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 3: Today. 6 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 2: She is recovering from a health thing of a jig 7 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 2: and we all wish you the best. She will be 8 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 2: back soon. But you know who's not back soon, because 9 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 2: they're here today, Alison Raskin. Allison, welcome to the show. 10 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 4: Oh, thank you so much for having me. 11 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for being on. You and I are 12 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 2: going to have a long conversations about a very weird 13 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 2: dude today. But before we get into that, we should 14 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 2: talk a little bit about you. You are a writer, director, comedian. 15 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: You are the co author of the book I Hate 16 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 2: Everyone But You, which was a New York Times bestseller. Yeah, 17 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:52,480 Speaker 2: is there anything else you want to kind of plug 18 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 2: up at the top here? 19 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 5: Oh? Yes, that feels like an outdated bio a little bit. 20 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 5: I do a lot of a lot of different stuff 21 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 5: these days. I primarily prote myself as a writer still 22 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 5: and then a relationship coach, a mental health advocate. So 23 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 5: I've had two nonfiction books come out about sort of 24 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 5: the intersection of mental health and relationships and then I 25 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 5: have a rom com novel coming out in April called 26 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 5: Save the Date, which is loosely based off of a 27 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 5: multiverse version of my own broken engagement, so a fictionalized 28 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 5: version of what could have happened afterwards. 29 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: Well, that is very appropriate that you work in mental health, 30 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 2: because the guy we're talking about today is one of 31 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,559 Speaker 2: the worst things that ever happened to the mental health 32 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,559 Speaker 2: field in the. 33 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 3: Entire really bad at that. 34 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 2: We are talking about a fella named Bruno Bettelheim. Have 35 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 2: you heard of Bruno Bettleheim. 36 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 4: No, I don't. 37 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 5: I actually do have a master's in psychology. But he 38 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 5: did not come up along that journey. 39 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, he was. 40 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 2: He would have described himself as, and was usually described as, 41 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 2: an expert in child psychiatry and the treatment of autism. Now, 42 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 2: oh no, here's the thing. Number one, absolutely not in 43 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 2: any like legitimate way an expert in child psychiatry, and 44 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 2: also not at all an expert in the treatment of autism. 45 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 2: His primary thing was to declare kids to have autism 46 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 2: and then treat them in a way that we would 47 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 2: just describe as hitting them. Primarily, that's the way this 48 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 2: guy worked. There's a lot more to him than that. 49 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 2: Even he was a very very strange man. It's kind 50 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: of important that you know that the outset that when 51 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 2: we talk about again, the kids that he was working 52 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 2: with were described as having autism and schizophrenia. Today, most 53 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 2: of them we would just describe as kids with like 54 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 2: mild behavioral problems like like twitching a little bit in 55 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 2: class or something, or not being good at doing math. 56 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:56,959 Speaker 3: Right. 57 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: These were not terms that meant the same thing that 58 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,519 Speaker 2: they do today, because diagnostic criteria in the early nineteen 59 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 2: hundreds was just not what it is now. 60 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 5: So it's just a history of misdiagnosing children and also 61 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 5: a lot of racism when it comes to misdiagnosing children. 62 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,959 Speaker 2: Oh, and a lot of racism in the Bruno Bettlelheim's story. 63 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 2: I'm sure there is, yeah, both as a victim and 64 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 2: as a perpetrator, because Bruno came He's an Austrian like 65 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: most of the really fascinating like early twentieth century mental 66 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: health professionals, and his family he came from this like 67 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 2: wealthy subset of the Austro Hungarian Jewish population. That's like 68 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 2: his family comes from money and comes from money within 69 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: like the Austro Hungarian Empire's Jewish population, which is like 70 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 2: a whole separate subset of like the imperial population. He 71 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: would later claim, because he makes a lot of statements 72 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: about his background, again almost none of which are true, 73 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 2: that his paternal grandfather had been an orphan who had 74 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 2: been raised and educated as a rabbi, and like he 75 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 2: got the attention of the Baron Rothschild, who made him 76 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 2: a tutor to his heirs, and he was so good 77 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 2: at teaching these kids that they gave him command of 78 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 2: the family bank, and he made the family fortune doing that. 79 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: Definitely not true, almost certainly is not what happened. That said, 80 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 2: the actual real story of his family name is. 81 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 3: A lot cooler. 82 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 2: And I don't know why he tells this bullshit story 83 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: about like him being a banker, because the name Bettelheim 84 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 2: came from sometime in the seventeen hundreds, the Slovakian nobleman 85 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 2: named Count Bethlin fell for the wife of a Jewish 86 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: citizen and tried to kidnap her on his horse, and 87 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 2: her husband charged in and beat the count in hand 88 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 2: to hand combat. And given like the racial politics at 89 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 2: the time, this was a ballsy move right for this 90 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 2: guy to come in and just like wail On, a 91 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 2: major member of the nobility, and so he got the 92 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 2: nickname Bethlen from the guy he beat up Judah, which 93 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 2: is like you know Jewish, right, And that was like 94 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 2: where the name Bettelheim came from. After a few decades later, 95 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 2: the Habsburg's decreed everyone had to have a last name, 96 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 2: and so that became Bettelheim for reasons I'm not that 97 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 2: don't entirely make sense to me, but it's a pretty 98 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 2: cool origin story. 99 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 4: It's very cool. 100 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, beating the hell out of account, beat it like 101 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 2: a guy on horseback too, which. 102 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 4: Is like, you have some sounds like a tall Jews 103 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 4: itself guy. 104 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 5: Yeah, I did disclaim here that I am Jewish. 105 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 2: So that's where probably where the name Bettelheim cut. Like 106 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: any sort of this is a mid seventeen hundred's family 107 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 2: last name origin story. Maybe none of this is true, right, 108 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 2: we'll never really know whatever the case. Bruno's father and 109 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 2: grandfather kind of make their fortune trading wood. That's where 110 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 2: the family money comes from, right, They like own forests 111 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 2: that they plant and chop down. 112 00:05:58,000 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 6: Uh. 113 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 2: And they're in just kind of like the wood product business, 114 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 2: you know, and they do very well as a result 115 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: of that, the Bruno's dad, Anton, starts a lumber business 116 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 2: in nineteen oh seven with another guy, and Anton and 117 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 2: Paula Bettleheim, Bruno's parents. They first have a daughter, Margaret, 118 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 2: in eighteen ninety nine, and then on August twenty eighth, 119 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 2: nineteen oh three, they welcome Bruno into the world. By 120 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 2: this point, Anton's lumber business was doing very well and 121 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 2: the family was probably maybe not in the top one 122 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 2: percent because like this is an empire and they're not 123 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 2: in the nobility, but like that super far from the 124 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: top one percent, right, They're very wealthy, as is customary 125 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 2: for the rich in this period of time. Bruno's mother 126 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 2: refused to nurse him. He suffled from a professional wet 127 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 2: nurse for the first three years of his life, and 128 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 2: later wrote that his mom was too much the Victorian 129 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 2: lady to do it herself. This is again super normal 130 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 2: at the time, although it also seems to have kind 131 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: of messed with Bruno because he's never he's never cool 132 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 2: with his mom, and he will later project a lot 133 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: of his issues with her onto mothers in general. 134 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 5: Yes, that is also a common theme in early psychology early. 135 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, especially for Austrians. 136 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe a whole deal going on there. 137 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. 138 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: Now again it's kind of he's going to later talk 139 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 2: a lot about his mother being cold and like not 140 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 2: a very kindly person, but in other writings from a 141 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 2: like while he's a young man, he'll describe her as 142 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 2: loving and attentive. And again, he's a guy who makes 143 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: up a lot of stories about the past. So I 144 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 2: don't know if he actually had his mom was actually 145 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: cold to him when he was a kid, or if 146 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 2: something happened later that made him kind of retroactively decide that. 147 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 2: But it's very different from how like other people who 148 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 2: knew them when he was a little kid described their relationship. Too, 149 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 2: We'll never know. Like most boys in the late Victorian era, 150 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 2: he had several brushes with death. He like, he has 151 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 2: this classic thing where he eats poison berries. No, and 152 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 2: this doctor just gives him a shitload of coffee to 153 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 2: fix it. I think the idea is that, like, we 154 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 2: just need to have him pee all of this out 155 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 2: right old time. 156 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 5: So wait, so other people thought that his mother was loving, 157 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 5: hecounts was that okay? Got it? 158 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: Got it? Yes? 159 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: And he will describe at varying points very different kinds 160 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 2: of relationships with his mom, like as a young man, 161 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: he writes that quote, while he was sick, my mother 162 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 2: sat up my bedside, sponging my feverish body and changing 163 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: the cold compresses to give me relief. In moments like these, 164 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 2: I learned to understand and appreciate that a mother makes 165 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: all the difference in the world when one is in need, 166 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 2: in great pain, deeply worried, or even desperate. Now this 167 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 2: is noteworthy, the fact that he has these kind of 168 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 2: two different attitudes about his mom, because, as his biographer 169 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: Richard Pollock notes, no prominent psychotherapist of his time was 170 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 2: as antagonistic to mothers. And that is. 171 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 6: Saying something, Wow, Freud, He's beating Freud in the issues 172 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 6: mom game. 173 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, that's like dunking on Jordan's. So again, there's 174 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 2: not really a clear explanation forthcoming as to this. Bruno 175 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 2: does recall later being raised as an older boy by 176 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 2: his aunt as much as his mother, and often hiding 177 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 2: at her place to avoid his sister Margaret, who he 178 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 2: described as. 179 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 3: A busy body. 180 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: This is all pretty normal kids stuff, you know. 181 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 3: At any rate. 182 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,719 Speaker 2: The overwhelming recollections of the people who knew Bruno and 183 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 2: his family was that his parents were doting and involved 184 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:33,959 Speaker 2: and if anything, his mother may have smothered him a bit. 185 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,559 Speaker 2: His father, Anton was a peculiar man. For the era. 186 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: Germanic fathers are known as being stern and strict, often 187 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 2: like well past what we would describe as abusive. What's 188 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 2: weird about Anton is that, like even today we would 189 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 2: call him kind of a permissive dad, like we would 190 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 2: say today, like this guy could have maybe could have 191 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 2: stood to be a little bit more like strict with 192 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 2: his kids, which is very rare for an Austrian father. 193 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 2: One anecdote Bruce later gave was that he got in 194 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 2: trouble for cursing in front of his mother and she 195 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 2: like went to it. She was like, Anton, your son 196 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 2: just you know, cursed in front of me and her father. 197 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 2: His father became upset, not that Bruno had cursed, but 198 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 2: that he now had to punish his son, and he 199 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 2: even asks Bruno, do I really have to punish you 200 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 2: to get you to stop cursing in front of your mother? 201 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 2: Which you know, the norm would have been probably to 202 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 2: smack him right like, just based on sort of the 203 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: standards of the time. Bruno's education is fairly strict, but 204 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 2: that's normal for his social class and the era. He 205 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 2: attends the finest school in Vienna, and he was an 206 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: excellent student, one of five out of fifty four in 207 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 2: his year to be noted as having been excellent. He 208 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 2: spent the war years World War One, that is, in school, 209 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 2: which is another mark of his good luck. You know, 210 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 2: he's born in this sweet spot where he doesn't have 211 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 2: to go die in on the Italian border, or in 212 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 2: Serbia or in Russia, all of which were like beloved 213 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 2: pastimes of Austrian teenage boys in these years. 214 00:10:57,679 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 4: And he's just like, my mom's too nice. 215 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 3: My mom, my mom's two is too nice to me. 216 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 4: My dad let me get away with. 217 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 2: Stuff, just daydreaming about charging a machine gun nest. No, 218 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: he's not a super militant kid, but he does get 219 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 2: very lucky right now. The war years are difficult even 220 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 2: for the rich. Bruno is better off than most of 221 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 2: the populace. He's never he and his family are never 222 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 2: in danger of starving to death, but they do go hungry. 223 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 2: Everybody does right with it, with the exception of like 224 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 2: the top of the royal family. Everybody in Austria is 225 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 2: going hungry at least a little bit during the war years. 226 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 2: It's just a terrible time, right this. The war is 227 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 2: bad for his family fortunes. Huge tracks of their Bettelheim 228 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 2: land get lit like burnt down own by artillery bombardment 229 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 2: right at the start of hostilities. But his family doesn't 230 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 2: lose everything, and Anton seems to have been an unusually 231 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 2: tenacious and brilliant businessman. By the time the war ended 232 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: and the Habsburg Empire with it, the Bettelheims were still 233 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: comfortably wealthy, right, which is takes a lot that's not 234 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 2: easy to maintain in this period of time. So it 235 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 2: says a lot about Anton. 236 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 4: This guy seems great that that seems he seems. 237 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:09,559 Speaker 2: Like a pretty good dad for the era, about as 238 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 2: good as you get out for Bruno's schooling was mixed 239 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: as a again that he is not going to he's 240 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 2: going to an integrated school, which in itself in Austria 241 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 2: is a pretty new thing. That like you would have 242 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 2: Jewish and Christian boys at the same school. There were 243 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 2: some like you have religious education as part of your 244 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 2: normal schooling. Obviously, the small number of Jewish kids have 245 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 2: a rabbi. Most of the other boys are being talked 246 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 2: to by like members of the Catholic clergy because it's 247 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 2: a majority Catholic country. Bruno would later describe most of 248 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 2: his fellow classmates as anti Semitic bastards, which is almost 249 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 2: certainly accurate. 250 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 3: Austria. 251 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, probably kinds of racism that you would 252 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 2: need like a NASA calculator to rate today. He recalled 253 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: often the case of a classmate who he had consented 254 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 2: ORed a friend and walked to school with daily, who 255 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 2: out of nowhere one morning, punched him in the face 256 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 2: in revenge for the crucifixion of Christ. So that kind 257 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 2: of racism. Yeah, your best friend just hits you one 258 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 2: day because of something that happened two thousand years ago. 259 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 5: But it does like bring up this thing that I 260 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 5: think is happening now, where like these kids will just 261 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 5: be friends with kids, but then they go home and 262 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 5: their parents tell them things and then suddenly they're acting 263 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 5: out and they're deciding this is someone needs to be 264 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 5: punched in the face. 265 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 2: I guess I need to be a huge asshole now, 266 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:34,559 Speaker 2: Okay he. 267 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 4: Learned that somewhere that day. 268 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 2: Before, right, Yeah, that kid didn't come up with the 269 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 2: idea on his own. It was a parent or like 270 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 2: probably a member of the Catholic clergy who was talking 271 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 2: shit one day. Now, this was the tip of the 272 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 2: iceberg in terms of the racism that Bruno endured as 273 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 2: a kid. He would later say, quote, there were the 274 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 2: boys who extorted money, who beat us if we handed 275 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: it over because we were dirty cowards, and who beat 276 00:13:56,880 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 2: us if we didn't because we were miser le Jews. 277 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 2: So really can't win, you know. One of the key 278 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 2: moments of Bruno's education came when he and several other 279 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 2: boys attacked one of their school teachers, again very different era, 280 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 2: who he described later as a simpering fool who spoke 281 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 2: with the voice of a eunuch. 282 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 6: Right. 283 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 2: In other words, he and a bunch of his other 284 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 2: students beat the hell out of a school teacher because 285 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 2: he was a feminate, you know. In the Creation of 286 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 2: Doctor b a biography by Richard Pollock, Pollock rights, so 287 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 2: weak and inadequate was the schoolmaster that one day Bruno 288 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 2: egged on several of his classmates and together they bodily 289 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 2: removed the offending instructor from the room. Bettelheim recalled that 290 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: he immediately began to tremble as he contemplated the consequences 291 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 2: of this rash act, and indeed, the next day the 292 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 2: schools authoritarian director castigated the class and especially Bruno, as 293 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 2: the leader in this unprecedented and nefarious deed. But the 294 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 2: director did not as the troublemaker feared, expel him. On 295 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 2: the contrary, at the end of the scolding, his demeanor 296 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 2: suddenly softened, and in a quiet voice, he said, of course, 297 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 2: I know that if doctor X had behaved as I 298 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 2: expect all masters of this institution to behave, nothing like 299 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 2: this could have happened. So again, he like beats up 300 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 2: a teacher, he like leads a mob to force a 301 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 2: teacher violently out of the classroom. And the director's like, 302 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 2: we yeah, but he shouldn't have been such a girl 303 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 2: about it. 304 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 3: He was asking for it. And then we. 305 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 5: Wonder, like, oh, how did this guy then go on 306 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 5: to perpetuate harm? 307 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 7: Pardiculuses, Yeah, why was this guy a problem later in life? 308 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 3: Well, and it's also. 309 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: White in Austria get involved in so much fucked up shit, 310 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: you know. It really like the fact that this is 311 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 2: the country that is going to like produce Hitler and 312 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 2: that just like gets does the things it does in 313 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 2: World War One, it's like, oh yeah, everybody was like 314 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 2: like this. This is a culture that's kind of out 315 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 2: of its mind in a lot of ways. 316 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 4: You know, I can't living in one of those. 317 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no. Thank god. 318 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 2: We figured it fixed all of our mental health issues. Finally, 319 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 2: human beings are healthy. I haven't read the news in 320 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 2: about eight years, but I think it's going well. So 321 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 2: more than two thirds of a century later, Bruno would 322 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 2: recall this incident as key in his development as an educator, 323 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 2: because it was the first time a figure of authority 324 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 2: at his school had witnessed bad behavior and, in his eyes, 325 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 2: sought to understand its root cause rather than just punishing 326 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 2: it out right. So what he takes from this is 327 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 2: my headmaster punished me, because he does get punished, but 328 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 2: he sought to understand why I had acted out. And 329 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 2: this is like a revelation to him that you wouldn't 330 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 2: just hit a kid for not doing what you wanted 331 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 2: a kid to do. You would try to understand what 332 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 2: was the child thinking when it behaved When they behaved badly, right, 333 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 2: and then you hit him, and then you hit him 334 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 2: and then you hit me. Now, the fact that Bruno 335 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 2: just chose to describe the teacher he disliked as sounding 336 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 2: like a eunuch holds a little more meaning than you 337 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: might guess. As an adult, Bruno reserved special disgust for 338 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 2: the authority figures of his childhood who acted in ways 339 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 2: he considered effeminate, and his kind and retiring father was 340 00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 2: one of these, and an excellent paper on Bettelheim for 341 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 2: Disability Studies Quarterly Griffin Epstein seems to tie this behavior 342 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 2: to Bruno's insecurity over anti Semitism. There was a strong 343 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,159 Speaker 2: heteropatriarchal thrust to the stigmatization of Jews. According to Boyarin, 344 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 2: Jews were understood to defy Western European gender and sexual norms. 345 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 2: Jewish men were seen as effeminate sissies unfit for labor, 346 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 2: while Jewish women, when they appeared discursively at all, were 347 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 2: read as phallic monsters. Jews were perceived broadly as deviant, perverse, 348 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 2: and inbred sexual aberrations. So Bruno is really really sensitive 349 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 2: about the idea of men not behaving in a masculine 350 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 2: way because of the racism that he encounters right, and 351 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 2: this is further complicated by the fact that his dad 352 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 2: catches syphilis. In nineteen oh seven. So this idea and 353 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 2: another anti Semites will often link syphilis to Judaism in 354 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 2: this period, like it is a common aspect of racial politics. 355 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 2: Hitler does it a lot. And so the fact that 356 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 2: Bruno's dad, as kind as he is, catches this very 357 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 2: shameful disease is a big part of why Bruno is 358 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 2: going to be the way he is as an adult. 359 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 2: And it's like this kind of shame that is at 360 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 2: the core of his personality as a kid. Now, the 361 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 2: likely reason Anton catches syphilis is that his wife goes 362 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 2: away one weekend and he sleeps with a sex worker. Right, 363 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 2: That's generally how this thing happened. This was apparently the 364 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 2: only time he did it, although obviously we can't know that, 365 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 2: but the indiscretion has a shattering impact on the family. 366 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 2: His wife doesn't sleep with him for the last twenty 367 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 2: years of their marriage, and she doesn't because she would 368 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 2: get sick and die if she did, right, Like, this 369 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,199 Speaker 2: is an uncurable fatal illness in addition to being a 370 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 2: stigmatized illness. 371 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 4: So word Jilif for twenty years with syphilis. 372 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 2: You do you off. And it takes about twenty fifteen 373 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 2: to twenty years to hit like the tertiary stages, Like 374 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 2: that's not it can it can go differently. But like, 375 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 2: one of the frightening things about syphilis is that you 376 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 2: after the quote unquote indiscretion as it would be, you 377 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 2: know you, so you have a break in your and 378 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,479 Speaker 2: you and you you know, have an unrecommended liaison, you 379 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 2: don't know for years if you got sick from it, right, 380 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 2: And that's part of why this is such a massive 381 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 2: thing in Austrian culture and all in all European culture 382 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 2: in this period, is that like the entire all the 383 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 2: men in the in the society are like constantly scared 384 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 2: of getting syphilis, right, and so are their wives, because 385 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:29,719 Speaker 2: if your husband is sleeping around and he catches it, 386 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 2: you'll get it. 387 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 5: You know. 388 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 4: One of the movies that shaped me so much as 389 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 4: a kid. 390 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 5: Was this this movie called She's Too Young on Lifetime. 391 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 5: Oh god, that was about alis outbreak at a high school. 392 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 3: Oh my god, it was. 393 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 4: Look, it was one of the funniest things I've ever seen. 394 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 5: Not that syphilis is funny, but Lifetime's execution of the 395 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 5: hit film She's Too Young. 396 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 2: She's Too Young, a Lifetime movie about syphilis at high 397 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 2: school does sound pretty rad, but also. 398 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 5: Like it's funny because at that point you just get 399 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 5: a shot like it's not the same because it was 400 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 5: for them, you know, yeah. 401 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 2: No, and it's going to be a big deal until 402 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 2: nineteen forty three, right, Like so it is like, well, 403 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 2: like Bruno is a mature adult in like his thirties 404 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 2: by the time it stops being something that people are 405 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: terrified of. 406 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:21,760 Speaker 3: But you know what. 407 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 2: Isn't syphilis is the sponsor of this podcast, not sponsored 408 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 2: by syphilis. 409 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:29,360 Speaker 4: That was a really good transition. 410 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you. A lot of people praise the 411 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 2: transitions on this show, not our sponsors, notably, and we're back. 412 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 2: I wonder like you could probably rebrand, given like rfk's 413 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 2: position in our society, you could probably rebrand syphilis as 414 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 2: a health tonic, right. 415 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 5: And sort of a way to separate the week from 416 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 5: the week from the chaff, Like who can who can 417 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 5: maintain syphilis for as long as possible? 418 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 2: That's right, You've got all these like Joe Rogan, guys 419 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 2: who really like taking ayahuasca. Syphilis causes hallucinations. I feel 420 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 2: like there's like a possibility here to make this work. 421 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 5: And it's sad that that's probably more true than we think. 422 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 3: In yeah, we're like. 423 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 2: Six months out from this. So the fact that Bruno's 424 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 2: dad catches syphilis is going to deepen the rift that 425 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 2: he has with him, and Bruno will later claim that 426 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 2: he had quote no suitable masculine figures in his life 427 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 2: as a child. In their paper, Griffin Epstein suggests that 428 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 2: Bruno saw his father's sickness and jewishness as a threat 429 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,719 Speaker 2: to his desire to assimilate to Austrian culture. Bruno is, 430 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 2: and this is not an uncommon thing at the time, 431 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:47,640 Speaker 2: an assimilationist right like. He does not he's not particularly religious. 432 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 2: He does not feel a strong separate identity as a 433 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 2: Jew in Austria. He wants to be seen as Austrian, 434 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 2: you know, which. 435 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 4: Is understandable given the environment. 436 00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 2: Of course, it's the most normal thing in the world. 437 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 2: Give In his childhood, as a teen, Bruno found himself 438 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 2: in the Young Wander Vocal movement, which is a it's 439 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 2: basically a hiking movement. This whole idea that you know, 440 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 2: what's healthy is moving your body out in nature, very 441 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 2: new and exciting, and so this is like a young 442 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 2: it's a quasi socialist movement. And one of the things 443 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 2: that's kind of noteworthy is they do a lot of 444 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 2: co ed hiking, right, so men and women are like 445 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 2: moving exercising outdoors together, you know, so there's both this 446 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 2: degree of like this is kind of a cutting edge 447 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 2: social This is like going to ravees. You know, was 448 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:36,719 Speaker 2: when I was a kid, when you and I were 449 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 2: like like twenty something. 450 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 4: This is wild stuff. 451 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, wild stuff. 452 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 2: We're gonna go a hike, you know, we might all 453 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 2: camp together. 454 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 4: Hey overnight. That is pretty risque. 455 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 2: That is risque. And it is through this, at age thirteen, 456 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 2: that he first pursues a woman. But he is this 457 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 2: doesn't go well for him. He gets upstaged, in his 458 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 2: biographer's words, by an older boy, Auto Finishal, who was 459 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 2: a budding psychoanalyst and a few years older than him 460 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: and was already attending Freud's lectures at the University of Vienna. 461 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 2: And obviously this woman that that Bruno is interested in, 462 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 2: well not woman, she's thirty, but they're all kids. This 463 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 2: kid that he is interested in is like attracted to 464 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 2: the fact that this older boy is going to college 465 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 2: and listening to the great Freud's lectures. And Bruno initially 466 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 2: develops a hatred of psychoanalysis because he's so jealous of 467 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,919 Speaker 2: this this older boy, which Pollock writes was quote so 468 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 2: great he could not sleep. He's just so angry about psychoanalysis. 469 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 3: Furious about the idea of Freud. 470 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 5: Look, I thought the you just fan of pure psychoanalysis. 471 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 4: But at least it doesn't keep me up at night. 472 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 7: It just wow, I'm so pissed people are getting therapy. 473 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 2: Just reading Freud's book on cocaine and fuming. So eventually 474 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 2: he does settle upon method for winning the girl's heart. 475 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 2: He would study Freud's work obsessively in order to stage 476 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 2: this younger boy. This sparked what would become a lifetime obsession. 477 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 2: He changes his mind on psychle analysis. He does not 478 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 2: win this girl's heart, and in fact, she grows exhausted 479 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 2: because he in order to impress her, he spends like 480 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 2: a whole weekend talking to her about Freud, and she's like, 481 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 2: I'm not interested in Freud anymore. 482 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 3: I'm done with this. 483 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 8: He's fucked Freud up for me. 484 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 2: Anton Bettelheim dies in April of nineteen twenty six from 485 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 2: a variety of illnesses and ailments that are all tied 486 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 2: to his syphilis, right, the final stages of syphilis literally 487 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 2: like it's boring holes through your brain like a shipworm 488 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 2: in wood, and it causes like it's pretty unpleasant like 489 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 2: to see. And Bruno would have been confronted directly with 490 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 2: the final stages of his father's illness. After his dad dies, 491 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 2: he's forced to take up his father's place running the 492 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 2: family lumber business in order to maintain his family's position 493 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 2: in society. He is twenty three years old, so you know, 494 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 2: he does get like a real childhood. He gets some time, 495 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 2: but at age twenty three, he is the head of 496 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 2: the family. He doesn't really want to do this job again. 497 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 2: He's very interested in psychoanalysis. He is a student at 498 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 2: the University of Vienna, focusing on art history at this point, 499 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 2: but he takes some business courses and he understands that, 500 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 2: like I need to keep my mom and my sister 501 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 2: in the kind of finery that they have become, right, 502 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 2: Like my family is used to being rich. I have 503 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 2: to maintain this style, right, Yes, yes, that's my job. 504 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:38,479 Speaker 3: You know. 505 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 2: And he does this. He's a very like diligent head 506 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 2: of the family. He starts courting a young woman named 507 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 2: Regina Bruno is in love with Regina, and Regina kind 508 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 2: of tolerates him, right, She's not super into Bruno. She's 509 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 2: only available. There's this sexy young artist that she is 510 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 2: in love with, and he's like, I'm a sexy young artist. 511 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 2: I'm not getting married. It's the twenties. I am going 512 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 2: to probably like die of consumption after getting really into Heroin. 513 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 4: You know, some love stories never die. 514 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 2: Some love stories never die. So Regina settles for Bruno 515 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 2: because he's rich, right, She's like, well, he's not this 516 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 2: sexy young artist, but he does have a shitload of money, 517 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 2: and I guess that's as good as you can do sometimes. 518 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,199 Speaker 2: And in the late twenties, it kind of is. In 519 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 2: near the end of the decade, she gets pregnant. She 520 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 2: gets an abortion to avoid marrying Bruno, which should give 521 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 2: you an idea of kind of where her head is 522 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 2: at at the time, considering how much less. 523 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 4: Common that is, you know, right, and dangerous, yes. 524 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 2: And much more dangerous. 525 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 4: Wow, that's a real that's a real sick burn. 526 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 2: That is kind of a burn to Bruno, right, Like 527 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 2: obviously I think like at the time he's going to 528 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 2: read it that way, right, because he wants a family 529 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 2: with this, with this lady. This feeds into a lifetime insecurity. 530 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 2: Bruno would express over his looks. He made frequent comments 531 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 2: about the fact that his mother had called him ugly 532 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 2: on the day he was born, and that he never 533 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,199 Speaker 2: got better looking, which seems unfair to me. Because I 534 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 2: found a picture of him as like a young man 535 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 2: from like around the period we're talking about, and I'm 536 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 2: gonna show it to you. You wouldn't say, like, he's 537 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 2: not like a movie star or anything, but he looks 538 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 2: like fine, he's like a pretty I would say, like, well, judge, 539 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 2: this does dead man's looks as a child. But he's 540 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 2: like a pretty normal looking guy. 541 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, Yeah, that's a standard guy. 542 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 2: That's a standard issue Austrian man. 543 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 544 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 4: And you add a bunch of money to his. 545 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 8: Portfolio, he's looking a lot better. He's looking good, no syphilis. 546 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 8: You know, he's doing about as good as you could 547 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 8: be doing in that period of time. 548 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 5: Yeah, this is a people's insecurities can really end up 549 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 5: causing a lot of harm. 550 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and he is. 551 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 2: He's super insecure about like hair, and he does kind 552 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 2: of he goes bald after this about his nose, and 553 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 2: his ears, and he will obsess over this. 554 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: You know. 555 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 2: I'm bringing it up not to shit on him, but 556 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 2: because this is like an important part of his self image, 557 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 2: and his self in image is further harmed by the 558 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 2: fact that Regina would vomit most of the time when 559 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 2: he visited her, which is not super good for your ego. No, 560 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 2: that's really just just and she would often get Yeah, 561 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 2: she would often puwe at his presence. I think she's 562 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 2: got like other stuff going on, Okay, she's probably. I 563 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 2: think it's some of it is that she feels stressed 564 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 2: out because she has to make a choice, right, Like, 565 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 2: she knows that I've got to make a decision about 566 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 2: whether or not to like pick this guy, and that's 567 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 2: kind of fucking with her. I don't think she's like 568 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 2: disgusted in him. I think it's literally just anxiety. Yeah, 569 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 2: but it fucks with his head, like obviously that's devastating. Eventually, 570 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 2: Gina finds herself out of other options and she marries Bruno. 571 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 2: Now she will always describe him as a wonderful friend. 572 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 2: She genuinely likes him. She's just not into him, you know. 573 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 3: Anyway. 574 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 2: They get married in nineteen thirty and during their years 575 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 2: because they are courting for what you would call an 576 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 2: abnormally long time, although not within their social Their social 577 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 2: circle are like kind of bohemians and artists and intellectuals, 578 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 2: so this is not super weird for the people they 579 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 2: socialize with. So Gina starts like kind of near the 580 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 2: right before they get married, taking therapy from a guy 581 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 2: called Richard Sturba and his wife, Edith Sturba, who are 582 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 2: a husband and wife psychoanalyst couple that are members of 583 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 2: Freud's inner circle. These are famous psychoanalysts right within the 584 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 2: psychoanalyst community. These are like, you know, they're big names. 585 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 2: Urged on by Edith, Gina convinces her husband to essentially 586 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 2: adopt a troubled young girl whose mom had abandoned her. 587 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 2: This girl, Patricia might actually have been someone we would 588 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 2: describe as having autism today, that's how she gets described 589 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 2: back then. But her like, she has a lot of trouble, 590 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 2: like you know, being social and sort of connecting and 591 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 2: you know, making eye contact and whatnot with people. Her 592 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 2: mom is this like wealthy writer basically who comes from 593 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 2: like a wealthy family and is like, I'm not going 594 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 2: to spend my time taking care of this troubled girl. 595 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 2: I'm going to go be a wealthy, famous person. Hey, 596 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 2: you want a kid, and you're interested in child development 597 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 2: and psychoanalysis, figure out my kid, right, That's essentially what happens. 598 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 5: I think a lot of people don't want a kid 599 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 5: that deviates from what they expect a kid to be. Yes, 600 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 5: And then if that kid is different in any way, 601 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 5: it's like, well, this isn't what I signed up for, right, 602 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 5: So right, someone else take care of this child. 603 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 2: And I will say this kid's mom comes through in 604 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 2: the clutch later in this story, but at this point, 605 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 2: she's like, yeah, would you raise my kid for me? 606 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 2: I gotta like do stuff, And Regina says like, yeah, 607 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 2: she really wants to do this. By all accounts, she's 608 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 2: very loving and does like really helps this kid out. 609 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 2: Is a good and Bruno is like Patricia will later 610 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 2: remember Bruno fondly. He does not really take any part 611 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 2: in raising her, which is interesting because he's later going 612 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 2: to be a child development expert quote unquote. 613 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 4: He is just. 614 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 2: Working and making money. But she recalls him as like 615 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 2: a nice man and their household as a pleasant place. 616 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 4: How old was she when she went to live with that. 617 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 2: I think she's like seven or eight something like that. 618 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 2: She's a little girl. Now he is working a lot, 619 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 2: six days a week, providing for the family, and at 620 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 2: this time, as kind of the twenties come to an 621 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 2: end in the early thirties start the Nazi movement is 622 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 2: winding its way closer to power in Germany. Now this 623 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 2: is not something that is initially of major concern to 624 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 2: Bruno or his wife. They are not politically involved. Instead, 625 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 2: he becomes obsessed with finishing his college degree so he 626 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 2: could start training at the Vienna Psychoanalytic Institute. Well, he 627 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 2: focused on what had become a dream. Austria slipped towards 628 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 2: a nightmare. In nineteen thirty three, the same year Hitler 629 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 2: came to power in Germany, a Christian socialist politician named 630 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 2: Engelbert Dolphus suspended parliament in Austria and began ruling by 631 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 2: decree as a reaction to economic calamity and political dysfunction 632 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 2: in Austria's First Republic. Now Dolphus again, he's a Christian socialist. 633 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 2: This is not a Nazi party, but he is an autocrat. Right, 634 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 2: he's ruling by decree. He's cracking down on anyone who 635 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 2: is like this, and this provides fuel for the Nazis 636 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 2: because it's now been normalized, this autocratic rule right Bettelheim 637 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 2: recalled of the chaos at the time they the Nazis 638 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 2: released tear gas and department stores to frighten off shoppers, 639 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 2: smeared house walls with pro Hitler graffiti, set off firecrackers 640 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 2: and patards in many places to cause panic, and eventually 641 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 2: started outright bombings. So the Nazis are an illegal party 642 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 2: at this point. They are literally a terrorist party in Austria. 643 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 2: But Dolphus is not really a whole lot better. He 644 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 2: is more concerned with using the military to crack down 645 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 2: on left wing militias, which culminates on him using artillery 646 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 2: to shell hundreds of apartment buildings in the capitol. He 647 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 2: succeeds in destroying the Social Democratic Party and it's militia, 648 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 2: which had been like the most power, the only militant 649 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 2: force in the country that could compete with the Nazis. 650 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 2: He destroys them so completely that in June of nineteen 651 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 2: thirty four, when one hundred and fifty four Nazis attack 652 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 2: government headquarters, there is no organized left ring resistance against them, 653 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 2: and Dolphus is murdered by the Nazis. 654 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 5: Now this has remind me of a headline I just 655 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 5: read about how the FBI is not going to be 656 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 5: focusing on white supremacists but instead the BLM movement Anti course. 657 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 3: Of course, yeah, it's all good. 658 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 2: You learned nothing, no, no, no one's ever I mean, 659 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 2: that's the lesson of history, is that no one's ever 660 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 2: learned a lesson from. 661 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 4: History, truly. 662 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 2: So Bruno does not react with great concern at first, 663 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 2: even though this is a concerning thing, right, he is 664 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 2: very much he's very good at focusing on just what 665 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 2: interests him. 666 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 3: He does. 667 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 2: He could have afforded to leave, right, he's got money. 668 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,720 Speaker 2: He could have bounced, but doing so would have meant 669 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 2: he could have gotten his family out, but they wouldn't 670 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 2: have stayed super rich, right, you know, it would have 671 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 2: cost him too much, and so he opted to continue 672 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 2: running his business and working on his degree, which he 673 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 2: achieved in nineteen thirty eight. He gets a PhD in aesthetics, 674 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,359 Speaker 2: which is a you know, it's an accomplishment, but that's 675 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,279 Speaker 2: not a degree in psychoanalytics. 676 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 4: Right, what is aesthetics? 677 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 2: It's like art history, and you know that kind of stuff. 678 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 2: It's like art related shit. He would later lie and 679 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 2: claim his degree had been approved personally by a council 680 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 2: of Freud's closest confidants, including his daughter Anna, and then 681 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 2: add that Sigmund Freud had wandered into the room and said, oh, 682 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 2: you know what, a dude with an aesthetics degree is 683 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,759 Speaker 2: just what psychoanalytics needs to develop as a science. He 684 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 2: is such a bad liar. And then Freud walked into 685 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,800 Speaker 2: the room and was like, you're exactly what my field needs. 686 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 4: Smoking a cigar. 687 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 3: He was smoking a cigar. Yeah. 688 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 2: Within days of Bettleheim getting his PhD, the aunchlass begins 689 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 2: and Germany annexes Austria. We're kind of YadA YadA ing 690 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 2: a lot of that history, because that's a story for 691 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 2: another day. But this is a major point at which 692 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 2: the life story that Bruno will tell later diverges from reality, 693 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 2: because the claim that he will give years later once 694 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,399 Speaker 2: he gets to the US is that as soon as 695 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 2: the Nazis annex Austria, he joins the Jewish underground. Right, 696 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 2: he becomes an officer in the underground. He stands armed 697 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 2: guard at facilities. He's afraid the Nazis are going to destroy. 698 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,320 Speaker 2: He helps to hide some of the first Jews targeted 699 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 2: by the Nazis and spirit them away to safety. He 700 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 2: describes himself as a significant figure in the underground army 701 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 2: and says that after demobilizing his men, he fled to Czechoslovakia, 702 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 2: where he is arrested and sent to doc Ou. Now 703 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 2: he definitely is sent to doc Ou, but there's no 704 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,240 Speaker 2: evidence that he is a part of the resistance. Gina, 705 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,399 Speaker 2: his wife, told Richard Pollack this story was nonsense. That like, no, 706 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 2: we were not like he was not doing that. That's 707 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 2: just not what was going on at the time. And 708 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 2: what he was doing was not like like cowardly. He 709 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 2: was trying to take care of his family, you know. 710 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 2: He urges his wife and daughter to flee ahead of him, 711 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 2: And at this point this is kind of like a 712 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 2: selfless gesture. His wife is cheating on him with a 713 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 2: married man, and he urges her to leave with that 714 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 2: guy and his wife, thinking that they'll have better odds 715 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 2: of escaping together at any rate. Gina and Patsy only 716 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 2: escape because Gina's biological mother, a wealthy New York woman 717 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,879 Speaker 2: or not sorry, Patricia's biological mother, right, Like the woman 718 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 2: who had kind of abandoned her kid to this couple 719 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 2: is friends with the US Secretary of State Cordell Hull, 720 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 2: and pull strings for them. And to her credit, this woman, 721 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 2: I think Angie is her name, really like it puts 722 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 2: in a lot of work to rescue them. She's like, 723 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 2: these people save my kid. I have to get them 724 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,760 Speaker 2: out of Austria. So she redeems herself and my eyes 725 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:13,920 Speaker 2: there like she really does, like put in a lot 726 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 2: of effort here more complicated people are complicated. Not a 727 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 2: great mom, but a good friend. In nineteen forty five, 728 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 2: Bruno would later swear an affidavit for the Nurember of 729 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,839 Speaker 2: War crimes trial that in which he discussed the terms 730 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 2: of his arrest and stated that he had not participated 731 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 2: in resistance activity. This is part of why we know 732 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 2: that this is a story he makes up later. Now 733 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 2: the reality is that he witnessed pretty titanic racial violence 734 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 2: in the wake of Nazi annexation. Jews were beaten and 735 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 2: murdered in the streets. One of a common thing was 736 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 2: that they would be forced to clean gutters on their 737 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 2: hands and knees, often with like toothbrushes and then would 738 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 2: be beaten by gangs of Nazi thugs. It was a hideous, 739 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:58,319 Speaker 2: hideous time. And Bruno does not leave as soon as 740 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 2: he could because he's trying to take care of his 741 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 2: mom and his sister, and he's also managing There's this 742 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 2: thing that happens once the Nazis take over, Jewish businesses 743 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 2: are demanded to be handed over to arians. This is 744 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 2: a process called arianization. It is not a fair process. 745 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 2: You get pennies on the dollar, you know, based on 746 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 2: what your businesses had been worth. And Bruno is attempting 747 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 2: to handle this manner in the most financially advantageous way 748 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 2: so that he can get his family out, he can 749 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 2: buy their way out of Austria. He does, however, get 750 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 2: arrested and sent to Docou, which is a very normal 751 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,720 Speaker 2: thing for Jewish men in Austria, Like during this period 752 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 2: of time, a lot of them get sent to the camps. 753 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,919 Speaker 2: Docou is the first of like the formal camps. Right 754 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 2: right after Hitler takes power in thirty three, there's what 755 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 2: are called like wild concentration camps, which are like we 756 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 2: have occupied some government buildings and we're torturing guys there. 757 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 2: Basically right Docau is kind of like the first of 758 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 2: we have actually like built this camp, and while it 759 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 2: is an awful place, I need to like emphasize it's 760 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,919 Speaker 2: not a death camp, right. Those are not operational yet. 761 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,240 Speaker 2: Over the course of the Third Reich, about thirty thousand 762 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,280 Speaker 2: of the two hundred and six thousand or so inmates 763 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,280 Speaker 2: at Dacau will perish there, right, which is like terrible. 764 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 2: That's a nightmarish place. But it's not Auschwitz, right, those 765 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 2: are not operational yet. Is in a death sentence, No, 766 00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,360 Speaker 2: you probably live, right, And in fact, prisoners are generally 767 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,439 Speaker 2: fed enough to survive and are rarely beaten to death. 768 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,360 Speaker 2: It is closer to a prison camp than what is 769 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 2: going to come later. That said, the nicest stay at 770 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 2: a concentration camp is still among the worst things a 771 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 2: person can experience. Bruno and everyone who is sent over 772 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,319 Speaker 2: with him spends days locked in a train with the 773 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 2: heat on full blast and the stifling summer. Just to 774 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 2: fuck with them, They're denied water during the journey. He 775 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 2: gets stabbed with a bayonet during the drive. Jewish prisoners 776 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,479 Speaker 2: are regularly forced to stand at attention once they arrive 777 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 2: in the blaze and heat for hours at a time, 778 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 2: Bruno sees people executed for attempting to escape. When inmates 779 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 2: would fail to make their beds properly, they would be 780 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 2: strung from a tree by their wrists by SS guards 781 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 2: and left there for hours. Like many Austrian Jews. The 782 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 2: official reason for Bruno's incarceration was schutz hoftling yudah or 783 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 2: incarcerated for his own protection. Right, he's locked up to 784 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 2: keep him safe, right while he was from US. 785 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:33,120 Speaker 5: From just a general propaganda we've been viewing against that 786 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:34,320 Speaker 5: you should kill all Jews. 787 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he is. Now this is again he's allowed 788 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 2: communication with his family. He's able to send letters back 789 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 2: and forth. They're able to send him money, he's able 790 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 2: to buy food from the commissary. And while this is 791 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 2: going on, he's constantly talking with Gina, who is working 792 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 2: through her friend through Cordell Hole to try and secure 793 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,400 Speaker 2: him a visa. So this is the whole time this 794 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 2: is going on, he is in communication with his family 795 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 2: who were talking with the US State Department trying to 796 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,399 Speaker 2: get him a visa to get him out. After three 797 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 2: months at Dacau, he is transferred to Bukenvald, which is 798 00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 2: a much worse place. Docou had had some amenities, sufficient 799 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,879 Speaker 2: food and like it has a weirdly good library. None 800 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 2: of that is present at Bukenvald, and the guards are 801 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,880 Speaker 2: on the whole a lot more violent now. Bruno survives 802 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,880 Speaker 2: in part because he gets an indoor job mending socks, 803 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 2: which during the winter stops him from freezing to death 804 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 2: as much as everyone else. He gets frostbite that he 805 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 2: has to get cut off right, so he is still 806 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 2: freezing a lot of the time, but he doesn't freeze 807 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 2: entirely because he has this very rare indoor job, and 808 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 2: we don't really know why. Other inmates at the camp 809 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 2: who were friends of his will say that he was 810 00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,879 Speaker 2: somehow protected and that his indoor job was a very 811 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,359 Speaker 2: very rare setup. We again, really have no idea why 812 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 2: this is the case. He would later allude to having 813 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 2: done things he regretted in order to survive. That is 814 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,879 Speaker 2: a very normal story. A lot of people did. Other 815 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 2: inmates who knew him theorized that one of the capos 816 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 2: or prisoners that were authorized to handle managerial tasks by 817 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,279 Speaker 2: the SS, had a soft spot for him. Another of 818 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 2: Bruno's friends said that there was a quote very very 819 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 2: nice SS officer who protected Bruno and you hear about 820 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 2: that stuff. That doesn't mean these are good people, but 821 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 2: it means that if you were, if you're interned at 822 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 2: one of these camps, you're going to note some of 823 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 2: these guys I can like work with, and some of 824 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:28,200 Speaker 2: them are just satists, you know. So maybe Bruno just 825 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 2: kind of has one of these guys has a soft 826 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,960 Speaker 2: spot for him. There's different stories. We don't really know 827 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 2: what the case was. Bruno credited foremost his luck, but 828 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 2: would later give some other stories. What's odd is that 829 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,399 Speaker 2: Bruno is going to tell some stories that definitely aren't true. 830 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,840 Speaker 2: Later he's going to claim that he was targeted over 831 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 2: the fact that he wore glasses and was beaten as 832 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,800 Speaker 2: a result of it. Bruno's fellow inmates who were interviewed, 833 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,879 Speaker 2: and again these are guys who were his friends, said 834 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,800 Speaker 2: that no, no, no, the guards were like less agro 835 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,760 Speaker 2: to the guys with glass. Again, I don't know who's 836 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,920 Speaker 2: telling the truth here, but there's two different stories, right, 837 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:07,759 Speaker 2: And this is not the only time Bruno is going 838 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,880 Speaker 2: to sort of stretch truths about his time at the camps, 839 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,160 Speaker 2: which is probably and we should probably get to why 840 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:13,720 Speaker 2: that matters. 841 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:14,000 Speaker 1: Now. 842 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,719 Speaker 2: So Bruno spends eight months months at Boutglenwald. So he's 843 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,359 Speaker 2: in camps for a little less than a year, about 844 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,959 Speaker 2: eleven months, it's like ten and a half months something 845 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 2: like that, and he is released due to the relentless 846 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,919 Speaker 2: pleading of his wife and their wealthy benefactor. He gets 847 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 2: a visa. There's also kind of a general amnesty around 848 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 2: this time for Jews who are willing to leave the 849 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 2: Reich immediately, and so he gets out during this period 850 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,120 Speaker 2: of time. He makes his way to the United States 851 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 2: in short order. He is really eager to retake up 852 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,040 Speaker 2: his marriage, but the marriage breaks up as soon as 853 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 2: he gets to the States, right like, they spend a 854 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,319 Speaker 2: night together and it becomes clear this is not going 855 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,960 Speaker 2: to work out obviously. The whole like spending a year 856 00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 2: in a concentration camp and then your marriage breaking up 857 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,200 Speaker 2: pretty stressful, like probably one of the worst things I 858 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 2: can imagine going. 859 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,799 Speaker 8: Through some long term damage that's gonna fuck you up 860 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:09,479 Speaker 8: a bit. 861 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,600 Speaker 2: But he gets an academic job with Rockford College in Illinois, 862 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 2: and in nineteen forty three he publishes the earliest influential 863 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 2: detailed account of life in a concentration camp. This is 864 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:25,040 Speaker 2: like the first influential publication about life in a camp right, 865 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 2: and it is a huge yes. It is titled Individual 866 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,400 Speaker 2: and Mass Behavior in Extreme Situations, and it is a 867 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 2: work of titanic influence. 868 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 3: Dwight D. 869 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,920 Speaker 2: Eisenhower is so impacted by it that it's made required 870 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,319 Speaker 2: reading for all US military government officials in Europe after 871 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:47,400 Speaker 2: the war. This is a big accomplishment, and that's a 872 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:52,520 Speaker 2: problem because he makes some conclusions about what happens to 873 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:56,920 Speaker 2: people in concentration camps that are problematic to say the least. 874 00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,279 Speaker 2: And we're gonna we're gonna get to that, but I 875 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 2: think it's probably time we transmit to ads one last time, 876 00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:12,520 Speaker 2: so we're back. Bruno has become probably the first academic 877 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,479 Speaker 2: to establish himself as an expert on the concentration camp 878 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,359 Speaker 2: system from the inside. And this is an issue because 879 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 2: number one, Bruno doesn't know much about the overall system 880 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,360 Speaker 2: and he's going to fib about some of what he sees. 881 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,360 Speaker 2: And I want to quote from that article by Griffin 882 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 2: Epstein again he attributed the success of camp tactics and 883 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,360 Speaker 2: traumatizing Jews not to Nazi torture, but to inherent Jewish weakness. 884 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,520 Speaker 2: Bettelheim claimed that Jewish prisoners were more likely than others 885 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:43,400 Speaker 2: to regress under repression to types of behavior characteristic of infas, 886 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,040 Speaker 2: infancy or early youth because of failings of the Jewish character. 887 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,920 Speaker 2: He claimed that concentration camps disintegrated the personality of the prisoner. 888 00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,880 Speaker 2: In the final stage of disintegration, Jews would actually become Nazis, 889 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:58,400 Speaker 2: changing their personalities so as to accept the various values 890 00:45:58,400 --> 00:45:59,520 Speaker 2: of the SS. 891 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 5: Problem problemat Anti Semitism do a number on you. 892 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,080 Speaker 3: Oh, Bruno, you got fucked up, buddy. 893 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:14,239 Speaker 9: No, no, now, he would later claim, And this is 894 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:16,799 Speaker 9: what's really problematic to me, is that he was the 895 00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 9: unique inmate who is able to objectively analyze what was 896 00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:21,319 Speaker 9: happening in the camp. 897 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:22,960 Speaker 2: No one else could do it. They didn't have the 898 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 2: strength of mind, right, Only I had. 899 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:30,239 Speaker 7: The psychoanalytical Frankel didn't know what he was fucking. 900 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:35,800 Speaker 4: He was other people's lives. But you know, he was 901 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:36,640 Speaker 4: really a wist. 902 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,799 Speaker 2: He is interned with in his friends at Buchenwald and 903 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:45,439 Speaker 2: at Dacau are psychoanalysts, prominent ones like he's good. He's 904 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:50,760 Speaker 2: there with them, right, and they survive, you know. Pollot 905 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,080 Speaker 2: continues quote. He wrote that he asked hundreds of German 906 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,560 Speaker 2: Jewish prisoners why they had not left Germany rather than 907 00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,520 Speaker 2: submit to the degradation inflicted upon them by the Nazis, 908 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 2: and he asked more than one hundred older political prisoners 909 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,319 Speaker 2: if they would reveal the horrors of camp life if 910 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,759 Speaker 2: they were freed and managed to reach safe territory, and 911 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,040 Speaker 2: that in collecting data for his psychological observations, he came 912 00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:13,320 Speaker 2: into personal contact with at least fifteen hundred prisoners in 913 00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,440 Speaker 2: the two camps. He was able to interact with so 914 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:17,520 Speaker 2: many inmates, he said, because he worked in at least 915 00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,480 Speaker 2: twenty different labor details and slept in five different barracks. 916 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,160 Speaker 2: Given his sockmanning assignment. The first claim seems unlikely. The 917 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 2: second is untrue. Prisoners were required to write their block 918 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,000 Speaker 2: numbers on their correspondence, and Bettlheim marked all his letters 919 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 2: from Dacou Block twenty two and from Bukenwald Block seventeen. 920 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,160 Speaker 2: So again he makes this claim about I was at 921 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 2: all of these different locations, and so I talked to 922 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:42,319 Speaker 2: and that's why that's why there's academic rigor, because I 923 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,279 Speaker 2: talked to a representative sample and we just know that 924 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,360 Speaker 2: he didn't, right, because we know where he marks his 925 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:49,040 Speaker 2: letters from. 926 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 4: When do people start to get skeptical about what he 927 00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:53,160 Speaker 4: had said it? 928 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,400 Speaker 2: Really there is a lot of the Jewish community is 929 00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:00,319 Speaker 2: immediately skeptical, Like people get pissed at this because he's 930 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:05,240 Speaker 2: blaming them, right, But it's like kind of modern Holocaust 931 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,160 Speaker 2: scholarship really starts to come after And we'll talk about 932 00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:10,120 Speaker 2: this some in part two in I think the seventies 933 00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:14,000 Speaker 2: is when that becomes much more common. But this is 934 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,959 Speaker 2: this essay and Bruno, because Bruno writes other things about 935 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,040 Speaker 2: the Holocaust, he is the primary source for the movie 936 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:25,080 Speaker 2: Sophie's Choice. Really yes, yes, And one of the things 937 00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,680 Speaker 2: that's really problematic about that is Sophie's Choice is about 938 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,080 Speaker 2: a death camp, and Bruno doesn't know anything about the 939 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,520 Speaker 2: death camps, and he's very much generalizing his experience in 940 00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,280 Speaker 2: this period of time about it to a later period 941 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,480 Speaker 2: of time in a way that transmits a lot of 942 00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:43,920 Speaker 2: inaccuracies down you know, as a result, because I've. 943 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,760 Speaker 5: Never seen Sophie's Choice, is it? 944 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:47,560 Speaker 4: Is it worth it? 945 00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:48,319 Speaker 7: Don't? 946 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,520 Speaker 2: I don't know how to answer that question. It's not 947 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 2: my my I think the Holocaust movie that I find 948 00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,799 Speaker 2: like most intellectually interesting is this old Soviet era one 949 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,279 Speaker 2: called The Shop on Main Street that is a out 950 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,719 Speaker 2: the air like a village that gets taken by the 951 00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:09,719 Speaker 2: Nazis and the arianization process. But I don't know, like 952 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,520 Speaker 2: that's such a Yeah, I. 953 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,839 Speaker 5: I feel like I prefer to get my examination of 954 00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:17,799 Speaker 5: like fascism through sci fi. 955 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:19,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go. 956 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:21,480 Speaker 4: It's just too it's. 957 00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,920 Speaker 5: Too upsetting to watch a thing that is actually about 958 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,800 Speaker 5: the Holocaust. Yeah, Whereas like the lessons and the morals 959 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,080 Speaker 5: and like the psychological dilemmas and stuff, I'd rather like 960 00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:34,640 Speaker 5: see through the frame of like Aliens the Cardassians. 961 00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,719 Speaker 7: Yes, yeah, it's much easier to to just the Nazis 962 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:38,680 Speaker 7: through Cardassia. 963 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:44,239 Speaker 2: Yeah. So very little complaint is made initially about the 964 00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,560 Speaker 2: time that all of these sources go unnamed. He'll just say, oh, 965 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,080 Speaker 2: believe me because all these guys said this, right, I'm 966 00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:51,520 Speaker 2: not going to tell you who they were, even though again, 967 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:55,000 Speaker 2: there's a lot of other people who survive and his 968 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:59,120 Speaker 2: analysis of how camp inmates react to their situations. One 969 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,480 Speaker 2: of the things people point out is that, rather than 970 00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:05,719 Speaker 2: comporting with other accounts from inside the camps. His analysis 971 00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:09,799 Speaker 2: of how people behave and why comports with Freudian psychiatry. Right, 972 00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:14,279 Speaker 2: and that's worth noting. In a critical article about Bettleheim 973 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:18,480 Speaker 2: for Psychohistory Review, Paul Rosen writes, it is still memorable 974 00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,320 Speaker 2: and shocking how Bettelheim, in his nineteen forty three article 975 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,719 Speaker 2: thought that a prisoner had reached the final stage of 976 00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,680 Speaker 2: adjustment to the camp situation when he had changed his 977 00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,520 Speaker 2: personality so as to accept as his own the values 978 00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,440 Speaker 2: of the Gestapo. In nineteen thirty six and a Freud 979 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:34,400 Speaker 2: in a book written while her father was alive and 980 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,600 Speaker 2: in the spirit of the work of his disciples, Sandor 981 00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:40,799 Speaker 2: Farinsky described the defense of identifying with the aggressor, and 982 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:45,200 Speaker 2: Bettelheim was giving concrete illustrations of this unconscious, self defeating process. 983 00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:50,480 Speaker 2: So the allegation is he is massaging his experiences so 984 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:54,560 Speaker 2: that they fit this psychoanalytic framework, right, that he is 985 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,840 Speaker 2: already accepted as valid, and that he wants to be 986 00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,400 Speaker 2: respected in right, look. 987 00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,120 Speaker 5: For evidence to support the ideas they already believe. 988 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,600 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And one of the real issues here is 989 00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:08,640 Speaker 2: that you know, it's not It's not the case that 990 00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:10,879 Speaker 2: no one in the camps reacted this way, right, there 991 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,400 Speaker 2: are there were prisoners who attempted to ingratiate themselves with 992 00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:17,040 Speaker 2: the SS who you know, who did stuff like what 993 00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:19,719 Speaker 2: Bruno describes. That is a thing that happens. You can 994 00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,239 Speaker 2: find cases like that in all of the camps. But 995 00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,080 Speaker 2: he one of the things so claim is that like 996 00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:29,160 Speaker 2: there isn't prisoner resistance, and there's a ton of prisoner resistance. 997 00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:34,080 Speaker 2: Prisoners are constantly acting to sabotage the camps, to sabotage 998 00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:36,400 Speaker 2: the SS guards. That is a thing that happens at 999 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,320 Speaker 2: every camp. It's a thing that happens at Bukenvald while 1000 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:43,080 Speaker 2: he's there, Right, he knows that there's prisoner resistance, and 1001 00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:47,560 Speaker 2: he he erases that from his story because it doesn't 1002 00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:52,320 Speaker 2: comport with psychoanalytically what he thinks he should be reporting 1003 00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:52,719 Speaker 2: on there. 1004 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,640 Speaker 4: Right, he's a very unethical, unreliable guy. 1005 00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,200 Speaker 3: Yes and yes, yes in ways. 1006 00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:04,799 Speaker 5: There's like not enough other voices to be able for 1007 00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,239 Speaker 5: people to be able to recognize that as quickly as 1008 00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:08,920 Speaker 5: you would hoped they would be able to. 1009 00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:09,680 Speaker 3: Yes. 1010 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:12,080 Speaker 2: And he's also going to he does a lot of 1011 00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:16,600 Speaker 2: victim blaming. He will repeatedly criticize Jews for taking acts 1012 00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:20,319 Speaker 2: that provoke anti Semites, and in nineteen forty seven work, 1013 00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:24,680 Speaker 2: he describes anti Semitism as being caused in part by 1014 00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:27,520 Speaker 2: the failure of Jewish people to see anti Semites as 1015 00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:32,200 Speaker 2: individuals and to understand them. One scholar, Peter Bloss, Doctor 1016 00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,080 Speaker 2: Peter Bloss, has stated many Jews were offended because he 1017 00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:37,560 Speaker 2: felt that to some degree the Jews provoked the actions 1018 00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,400 Speaker 2: of the Nazis. So he is criticized again at the time, 1019 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,600 Speaker 2: but a lot of folks like Eisenhower, who certainly aren't 1020 00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:47,840 Speaker 2: plugged into the community of Jewish survivors, are like, this 1021 00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:48,640 Speaker 2: sounds right to me. 1022 00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,040 Speaker 4: You know, yeah, I am misunderstood. 1023 00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:53,160 Speaker 3: Now. 1024 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,319 Speaker 2: The issue here isn't that Bruno has no right to 1025 00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,759 Speaker 2: a different opinion about these things. Right, Every inmate has 1026 00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,560 Speaker 2: a different experience, and everyone reacts. And I'm not even 1027 00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:07,600 Speaker 2: blaming if prisoners attempt to befriend SS guards to survive. 1028 00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:10,080 Speaker 2: I'm certainly not blaming anybody for doing that. You do 1029 00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:11,960 Speaker 2: whatever the fuck you have to do to get it 1030 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,359 Speaker 2: through that experience, and that's going to include a lot 1031 00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:15,640 Speaker 2: of ugly things, you know, and. 1032 00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,719 Speaker 5: Also acting like you support them is different than what's 1033 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:21,200 Speaker 5: maybe going on internally. 1034 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:22,359 Speaker 3: Yes, I am. 1035 00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:25,200 Speaker 2: I am strongly of the opinion that when it comes 1036 00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:28,359 Speaker 2: to what people do in the camps, we certainly can't 1037 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:32,200 Speaker 2: judge any what it was in that position that said, 1038 00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:35,359 Speaker 2: I think we can judge the stuff that Brunoa is afterwards, right, 1039 00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,800 Speaker 2: And he's going to give a lot of contradictory stories 1040 00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:43,480 Speaker 2: enough that we can't really say in every instance what happened, 1041 00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,880 Speaker 2: but we can safely say he twisted his experiences later 1042 00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,160 Speaker 2: in recollection to make points that he wanted to make. 1043 00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,320 Speaker 2: And again, this is going to have a big influence 1044 00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,760 Speaker 2: on early Holocaust scholarship. The film Sophie's Choice is heavily 1045 00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:59,920 Speaker 2: based upon his recollections of camp life, and much of 1046 00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:03,040 Speaker 2: writing on the matter seems to exist not to reveal 1047 00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,120 Speaker 2: truths about the Holocaust, but to separate himself as an 1048 00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,520 Speaker 2: individual from the massive Jews who suffered and were annihilated. 1049 00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:12,799 Speaker 2: Bruno even admitted later that the quote main problem for 1050 00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:16,320 Speaker 2: him during his time incarcerated was to safeguard his ego 1051 00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:18,600 Speaker 2: in such a way that, by if any good luck, 1052 00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:21,560 Speaker 2: he should regain liberty, he would be approximately the same 1053 00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:23,680 Speaker 2: person he was when deprived of liberty. 1054 00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,960 Speaker 5: I wonder though also that he knew that people were 1055 00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:30,479 Speaker 5: working on the outside to get him out. Yes, yes, 1056 00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,640 Speaker 5: but that probably really impacted how he viewed himself in 1057 00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,000 Speaker 5: the camp because he was like, no one else has 1058 00:54:36,040 --> 00:54:38,799 Speaker 5: like this into the American government trying to get them 1059 00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,920 Speaker 5: a visa, Like I am special, I do deserve to 1060 00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:44,479 Speaker 5: be freed in this way that other people don't, because 1061 00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:46,719 Speaker 5: that's been sort of his m his whole life is, yes, 1062 00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:50,560 Speaker 5: you know, to view himself as better than those that 1063 00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:54,560 Speaker 5: other people assimilate him or view him as being like. 1064 00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that's a really good like this 1065 00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:00,640 Speaker 2: this need for him to feel special and better even 1066 00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:05,600 Speaker 2: than like his fellow inmates. Colors how he writes about 1067 00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,440 Speaker 2: this in a very interesting way. 1068 00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:10,480 Speaker 4: And it allowed him to keep that belief. 1069 00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,200 Speaker 5: Yeahs, because there was an element that he was special 1070 00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,040 Speaker 5: and different because he had these people working for him. 1071 00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,400 Speaker 5: So it was it completely unfounded. 1072 00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:22,480 Speaker 2: And that's another reason why. Also it's so problematic that 1073 00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,600 Speaker 2: because obviously his experiences this is a portion of the 1074 00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:29,319 Speaker 2: Holocaust that's super important to understand the period of time 1075 00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,360 Speaker 2: when he's in these camps, that's a part of the 1076 00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:36,520 Speaker 2: concentration camp story. But the experience of this guy who 1077 00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,360 Speaker 2: number one has a good chance of surviving, knows that 1078 00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,960 Speaker 2: from the outset pretty much, and has people working for 1079 00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:46,160 Speaker 2: him on the outside, as opposed to Hungarian Jews in 1080 00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:51,120 Speaker 2: nineteen forty four, right who there's no one coming, right like, 1081 00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:53,279 Speaker 2: we have fallen off the edge of the planet. 1082 00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:54,240 Speaker 3: You can't. 1083 00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:58,400 Speaker 2: His experience is as different from that person's as a 1084 00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:02,760 Speaker 2: regular person not in camps is from his Bruno's experience, Right. 1085 00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:06,080 Speaker 4: Like these are you're not forced to face the same thing. 1086 00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:10,440 Speaker 5: You're not forced to face the same level of despair 1087 00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:15,279 Speaker 5: and yeah, and certain death and abandonment. And you know, 1088 00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:22,560 Speaker 5: you can avoid this stuff that I think creates it 1089 00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:25,080 Speaker 5: makes you different in your brain that just like fundamentally 1090 00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:26,040 Speaker 5: changes who you are. 1091 00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,040 Speaker 4: He was able to like avoid that, and. 1092 00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:30,320 Speaker 2: He's He's going to come to one other very weird 1093 00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:33,920 Speaker 2: conclusion because one of the results of this is he 1094 00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:37,799 Speaker 2: becomes obsessed with the idea of the total institution, which 1095 00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,680 Speaker 2: the constant tration camp is a total institution, right, one 1096 00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:44,799 Speaker 2: that completely dominates your life right while you're in it. 1097 00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:49,880 Speaker 2: And he starts to wonder, obviously, the Nazis created a 1098 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:53,319 Speaker 2: total institution to destroy people. What if you did the 1099 00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:56,680 Speaker 2: same thing for what if you made a good concentration camp. 1100 00:56:56,760 --> 00:57:00,880 Speaker 2: Oh god, and this is going to be his chief 1101 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:02,920 Speaker 2: motivation as a child development expert. 1102 00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:09,719 Speaker 3: That's a leap. I don't know that I'd go there. 1103 00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:13,719 Speaker 3: Seems kind of problematic. 1104 00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:15,840 Speaker 4: Buddy's but I can't. 1105 00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:21,160 Speaker 2: I did a good one. Well that sucked, but I 1106 00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:22,240 Speaker 2: think I can fix it. 1107 00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:25,760 Speaker 3: Okay. 1108 00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:30,280 Speaker 2: That is the end of part one. How are you feeling, Allison? 1109 00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:34,959 Speaker 5: I feel like I know where we're going and I'm 1110 00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:36,080 Speaker 5: and I'm terrified. 1111 00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:42,720 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it's uh. Next episode we will be Bruno 1112 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,360 Speaker 2: in the United States and we will be talking about 1113 00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:50,840 Speaker 2: how he redefines the care of children with autism. And again, 1114 00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:54,480 Speaker 2: he is not treating kids with autism almost exclusively. Not 1115 00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:58,280 Speaker 2: I mean, presumably some of them are are children with autism, 1116 00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,240 Speaker 2: but most of them are just rich kids that he 1117 00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:03,720 Speaker 2: is abusing. He's abusing all of the kids. Let's be 1118 00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:04,280 Speaker 2: clear about that. 1119 00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:07,720 Speaker 5: And I think it's also I would urge people to 1120 00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:13,280 Speaker 5: look into rfk's wellness farms that he has been speaking about. 1121 00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:17,920 Speaker 4: And there is a there is a an. 1122 00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:22,120 Speaker 5: Instinct that that remains throughout history, that that we could 1123 00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,680 Speaker 5: just shake certain things out of certain people, and it 1124 00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:27,480 Speaker 5: is incredibly harmful and false. 1125 00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:32,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is that is absolutely like the tactic 1126 00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:34,720 Speaker 2: he is going to take, is that, like, if you 1127 00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:37,720 Speaker 2: this is because that's that's his attitude about the total institution. 1128 00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:43,400 Speaker 2: I saw how concentration camps altered the personalities of the 1129 00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:47,240 Speaker 2: people interned there. You can alter a child who is 1130 00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:49,560 Speaker 2: acting in a way that you see as problematic by 1131 00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:52,919 Speaker 2: creating a total institution to reform them, right, And that's 1132 00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:56,040 Speaker 2: his attitude towards what he calls autism, what he calls schizophrenia. 1133 00:58:56,320 --> 00:59:00,800 Speaker 2: We can cure all of these by changing by creating 1134 00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:09,320 Speaker 2: a total institution, you know, So that's problematic? All right, Allison, 1135 00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:11,160 Speaker 2: do you want to plug anything right at the end? 1136 00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:12,920 Speaker 2: Here for where people can find you. 1137 00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:17,080 Speaker 5: Yes, you can order my new romcom novel Save the 1138 00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:18,840 Speaker 5: Date anywhere books are sold. 1139 00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:20,280 Speaker 4: And you can also follow my. 1140 00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:25,080 Speaker 5: Substack Emotional Support Lady for weekly writings about all things 1141 00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:28,480 Speaker 5: mental health. And I'm also available as relationship coach seeing 1142 00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:29,760 Speaker 5: individuals and couples. 1143 00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:34,480 Speaker 2: All right, awesome, Well Alison, thank you so much. We 1144 00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:39,760 Speaker 2: will be back on Thursday. Until then, everybody, try not 1145 00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:41,360 Speaker 2: to do this. 1146 00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:49,360 Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. 1147 00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:53,000 Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media. Visit our website coolzonemedia 1148 00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:56,360 Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 1149 00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:59,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the 1150 00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:03,160 Speaker 1: Bastards this is now available on YouTube, new episodes every 1151 01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:07,000 Speaker 1: Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com 1152 01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:09,160 Speaker 1: slash at Behind the Bastards