WEBVTT - #009 Jason Flom with Michael Morton 0:00:01.840 --> 0:00:03.840 I came from a beautiful neighborhood. 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:06.760 I had a beautiful life. 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:09.720 I went to sleep because September seventh was the first 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:11.920 day of my high school year. I was going to 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:14.040 be a senior. At twenty two, I was set to 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:17.720 start college. I woke up and my life was never 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:21.759 the same again. Cops came out with guns drawn, and 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:24.040 I never saw freedom ever since after that. 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:27.360 It's like roach mode town once you get in and 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:32.920 I can't now. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:55.000 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm today. I'm 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:58.520 extremely pleased and honored to have someone I considered to 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:01.320 be I guess, for lack of a better word, innocence royalty. 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:04.280 Michael Morton, Michael, welcome to the show. 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:05.039 Thank you, Jason. 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:05.800 It's good to be here. 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:10.280 So Michael is an extraordinary person in so many ways. 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:15.000 His case is extraordinary, his life post exoneration is extraordinary. 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:17.360 I didn't know him before this all happened, because that's 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.160 a long long time ago. But what he's been able 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:24.919 to accomplish, both inside prison and outside, is the stuff 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:25.520 of legend. 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:27.520 But let's go back. Michael. 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:31.399 You served twenty four years and seven months to the 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:35.240 day in Texas Penitentiary for a crime he didn't commit. 0:01:36.560 --> 0:01:39.920 The day that I walked in the penitentiary was on 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:43.360 March fourth. Day that I walked out was October fourth. 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:46.480 So you were in prison twenty four to seven. Yeah, 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:49.400 that's that for twenty four years and seven months. But first, 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:51.320 I just want to give the audience a sense of, 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:54.080 you know, what kind of a person you were before 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:55.280 all this stuff happened. 0:01:57.480 --> 0:01:58.360 I like to say that. 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:02.600 I was the statistical bid point in the American demographic 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:07.000 and that I was incredibly average. I went to SFA 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:09.840 Stephen at Foston State University in Acadocia, since where I 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:13.760 met my future wife, right and Christine. Yes, I met 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:21.480 Christine there. It began as some romances. Do you see 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:26.320 somebody across the room, you know, and it catches your 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:30.600 eye or she does in my case, make a long 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:34.560 story short, the whole deal, married, had a child, thinking 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:40.480 about getting another child on the way here. You know, mortgage, suburbia, cars, 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:41.600 credit cards. 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:42.920 All that stuff sounds pretty good. 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.679 It's the average. And that's why I call myself the 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:50.120 statistical midpoint in American demographic because there was nothing unusual 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:54.040 about my life. We had moved into our second home. 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:56.359 We sold our first, made a nice little piece of that. 0:02:56.480 --> 0:03:00.960 We were doing well and moving up. That was the idea. 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:06.160 And it's my thirty second birthday. And the next day, 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:08.240 when I went to pick up my son from the sitters, 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:11.760 which was part of my routine, the babysitter looked at 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:14.520 me in a very odd way. What are you doing here? 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:19.120 She said that my son wasn't there, that my wife 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:21.680 hadn't bought him in, which was very unusual for our routine. 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:25.160 Every family has a rhythm that they live in. And 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:27.519 the fact that I had not received any phone call 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:30.200 from my wife, she hadn't bought him with the sitters, 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.120 it was very bizarre. So I just snatched the sitter's 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:37.720 phone off the wall and called home, and to my surprise, 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:41.720 a man answered and identified himself as the sheriff. And 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:43.960 he wouldn't tell me anything except I needed to come 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.840 home right away, and. 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:51.400 Your heart is now gone a million miles a minute. Yeah. 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:57.040 I literally ran to my truck and it's about a 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:01.880 five minute drive home from there, and five minutes doesn't 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:06.920 sound much time. I mean, even though you're breaking the 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:08.800 speed limit and run the stop signs to get home, 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:11.200 because the sheriff just answered, you're you know, you're running 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:14.560 a mental inventory. What in the world could have happened, 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:18.560 and you know you run through well, k could have 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:22.200 been a fire, could have been a burglary, the wife 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:25.760 may have been attacked, could be rape, and oh my god, 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:30.200 could be murdered too. And I knew something had happened 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:34.000 to my wife. And as I literally slid up to 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:36.720 my house, there were police cars all around the house, 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:40.120 a very large yellow crime scene ribbon had been wrapped 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:43.800 all the way around the yard. And saw a couple 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:47.640 of cops in the front yard, uniform cops. And there 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:49.160 were neighbors, you know, people I knew, were on the 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:54.320 sidewalks across the street, little clusters, and as I slipped 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:56.560 the curb, you know, they all took note of me. 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:00.880 It's almost a priferl awareness, you know, because oh my god, 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:03.400 what's here happening at my house? But you also see 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:05.320 the things going on around you, or you sense them. 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.320 And I ducked under the crime and seeing ribbon, and 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:10.760 I was hanging to the front door when the police 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:14.120 stopped me because they didn't know who I was. And 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:18.920 the sheriff showed up very quickly when they stopped me 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:21.560 out in the front yard, and he identified himself and 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:26.040 he asked me to identify myself. The first words out 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:30.599 of my mouth were actually about my son, and the 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:31.960 sheriff told me that he was fine. He was at 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:35.280 a neighbor's house shoot doors down, and when I asked 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:38.360 about my wife, he informed me in an almost matter of 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:43.479 fact fashion, that she was dead, and because the house 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:47.520 appeared to look intact, it hadn't been burned. I asked 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:49.839 if it was murder, and he said it was yes. 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:52.200 So when did you start to get the sense that 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:54.200 they felt that you were a suspect. 0:05:55.720 --> 0:06:01.120 Initially I did not. They were asking some very odd questions, 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:06.039 and I was intellectualizing, Okay, they have to ask these 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:10.480 rather pointed, uncomfortable questions because they're trying to piece everything together, 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:12.240 and you know, they have to eliminate me as a suspect. 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.040 I get that, you know, after all, I've watched TV. 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:20.360 I know how this works. TV and reality don't always mesh. 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:24.000 But I got that. It wasn't until a few days later, 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:26.800 when I was interviewed by the police again and again 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:30.840 that I was quite frustrated with their line of questioning, 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:35.599 and I was also frustrated with what I perceived to 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:41.000 be their inability or unwillingness to do this, to do 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.680 this investigation property and professionally. And in a moment of frustration, 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:47.360 I volunteered for a polygraph test. I said, look, if 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:50.560 I take a polygraph test, will you believe me? And 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:56.360 they lit up like very very happy children. And very 0:06:56.400 --> 0:07:00.400 shortly after that is when one of my neighbors, an attorney, 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:05.039 suggested that I retain counsel. That he had a couple 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:08.479 of friends who were very good criminal defense attorneys, Bill 0:07:08.520 --> 0:07:12.520 White and Bill Allison in Austin, Texas, and I went 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:18.120 to see them, and it was shortly before that that 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:23.640 everything went south. They were gunning for me that, for 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:27.840 whatever reason, they looked around the crime scene, before any interviews, 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:30.480 before any lab tests, before a single thing had happened, 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:35.440 as far as in an investigative sense, they decided that 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:37.240 I was the guy I had done it. 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:43.560 So ultimately, how long was it before you were arrested 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:44.360 and charged? 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:49.520 It's about six weeks, pardon me. Six weeks after my 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:53.440 wife's death, I was home with my son, just the 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.640 two of us, in fact, we were making as much 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:58.920 as he could help. We're making dinner and we're in 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.640 the kitchen and the knock at the door, and I 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:04.600 picked up my son because you know, you leave him 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:06.520 in the kitchen with all the you know, hot water 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:08.480 boil and all that kind of stuff. This hot went 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:12.560 to answer the door, and to my utter shock, it 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:16.680 was the sheriff and number of deputies there to arrest me, 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:23.000 and I was flabbergasted. I did not expect them to 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:29.800 do this. And as bad as being arrested is the 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.880 worst part was having my son torn up from my 0:08:34.040 --> 0:08:37.680 arms because I tried to think about what was he 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:41.120 going through. Basically got him there on my hip and 0:08:41.200 --> 0:08:47.600 they're wanting to handcuff me. And the last time my 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:50.080 son has seen the police had been a really bad day, 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:51.320 as the day as mother is. 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:54.920 Killed and or imaginable Africa. 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:59.560 And suddenly the police were back and I could feel 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:01.480 me wrapped his legs around my waist and he didn't 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:03.440 want to let go, but they, you know, they peel 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:05.640 him loose. I was trying to comfort him and he's 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.360 calling for me, and that was the worst part. As 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:12.120 bad as being arrested is, as much worse seeing what 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:15.160 I was doing to my son, Because any any parent 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:18.480 knows that before you have a child, you are the 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.559 center of your own universe, and then after you have 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:24.120 that child, your perspective changes. 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:28.760 Now comes to trial, so you're in now in this 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:38.720 bizarre dream NightWare world of the criminal justice system sort 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:42.920 of working exactly the way it's not supposed to and this, uh, 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.199 these prosecutors are up there painting you as a murderer 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:48.319 and saying all sorts of. 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:55.000 Being on trial for murder. It's not what you think 0:09:55.800 --> 0:10:00.280 you know. Most everybody has their perspective of the way 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:02.760 these things go because of TV and movies and books. 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:03.959 You read about it. 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:06.600 You think you know about it, but it's a completely 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:12.520 separate world. It's a different universe. It's a subculture you're 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.360 not familiar with. They have their own language and they 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:18.000 have customs and they have rituals that you don't know 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:22.080 anything about. And the only thing you can do is 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:25.079 listen to your attorneys. I mean, they're supposed to know 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:27.040 what's going on. They've done it before, they know the 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:32.560 way the system works. And you're torn between taking their 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:36.240 advice from these experts you've hired as opposed to the 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:41.559 way you feel about what you should do. And when 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:43.840 you're torn like that between those two worlds, between what 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:49.280 you think and what you feel, it's always a battle 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:51.679 of what's in control. I mean, is it your head 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:52.400 or is it your heart? 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:54.720 You have an example of that, Okay. 0:10:56.320 --> 0:11:02.240 One of the purely fabricated issues in my trial was 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.200 that the prosecutor came up with this idea that because 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:10.280 there was a semen stained on our bed on the sheets, 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:14.800 that in his mind that meant that I had masturbated 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:16.160 with my wife's dead hand. 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:18.280 Wow. 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.360 Yeah, And I didn't know where that came from. And 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:23.120 you want to jump up and scream and you know, 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:26.040 deny it, maybe calling names or just you know that 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:27.960 kind of insult. You almost want to jump on somebody. 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.320 And yet you know that this is a sort of 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:35.840 a binary adversarial kind of Okay, you'll get your turn, 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:39.680 sit down, you know, be cool, don't make the jury 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:44.240 think you're some kind of nut, and you know, we'll 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:46.040 clean this up. And so that's the kind of thing 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:49.280 that you're torn between. Is you know that you should 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:53.280 take your attorney's advice because of the stuff that said, 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:58.880 steak here your very life and yet you have this 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:03.120 visceral response to some of these accusations that are just bloney. 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:05.520 You know, where did this come from. 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:09.040 Let's talk for a second about the exculpatory evidence that 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:09.800 was withheld. 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:13.280 Yeah, one of the great things that the Innocence Project 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:18.960 does is their DNA exonerations. But you never know what 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:21.120 a DNA test is going to reveal until you run 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:24.720 the DNA test. And so before the tests were actually done, 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:28.600 they had a parallel legal attack on my case, and 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:31.920 one of them was a Texas Open Records Act, which 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:34.360 is very very similar to the Freedom Information Act at 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:38.280 the federal level. And so we actually got access to 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:42.160 the prosecutor and the sheriff's files from eighty six and 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.360 eighty seven, and at this time, you know, we're in 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:46.679 the twenty first century looking back in this is the 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:50.440 appellate thing. And in those files we found out that, 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:54.040 despite the request by my attorneys and a direct order 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:59.680 from the judge, the prosecution and the shriff's department suppressed 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.880 key pieces of evidence that would have pointed to my 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:06.640 innocence and would have helped immensely at our trial. And 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:09.160 my attorneys were begging for this kind of stuff, but 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:11.880 they had no mechanism to get to it because the 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:16.040 prosecutor was between us and the evidence. And one of 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:18.240 the things was a check that had been cash after 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:23.040 my wife's death, a instance of her credit card being used, 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:25.160 supposedly down in San Antonio few days after her death. 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:29.720 And the biggie was this transcript of a phone call. 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:36.960 My son, unbeknownst to me, had apparently witnessed my wife's murder. 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:41.599 Remember now, he was three at the time, and everybody, 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.000 I mean even the police, were concerned about my son. 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:49.679 And in the time between my wife's murder and my incarceration, 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:55.000 I had taken him to several child psychologists and some 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:56.480 he got along with some he didn't. But the gist 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:59.000 of it all was that they all told me, look, 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:01.480 he is obviously so offering from what you might call 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:05.040 separation anxiety because his mother's gone. But we don't believe 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:08.600 that he has witnessed anything horrible, or more importantly, nothing 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:11.120 horribly been done to him, and so that was a 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:13.160 bit of release, but relief. 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:13.480 Rather. 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:19.120 However, unbeknownst to me, he had told my mother in law, 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.680 his grandmother, that he mentioned a lot of things about 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:26.200 my wife being murdered, to her, and he mentioned some 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:29.480 very physical, distinct things about the crime scene that police 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:32.840 had withheld from the media that only they knew, which 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:34.920 is part of procedure because if somebody wants to come 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:36.480 up and confess, they have to kind of prove that 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:38.440 they did it, or they also want to be able 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:44.800 to prove or catch somebody who's being interrogated. So, you know, 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:50.440 here's this transcript of my son's admissions about witnessing my 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:53.160 wife's murder, which would have been huge because he talked 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.840 about a man with a big mustache and red gloves 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:00.640 and having to hit mommy and think, goodness, my mother 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:04.160 law had asked him where why I was? You know, 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:07.120 was Daddy there? And my son very distinctly said no, 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:11.440 And so that would have been a wild wonderful thing 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:12.240 to have a trial. 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:14.120 Well, it would have led to your exoneration. 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:20.360 So the jury is requestered the argument, the closing arguments 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:22.040 have been done. 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:24.960 The jury goes out, how long were they out for? 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:30.960 I think it was about ninety minutes, but that doesn't 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:34.800 mean they deliberated for ninety minutes because they also had lunch, so. 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:36.360 It could have been forty five minutes. 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:38.240 It could have been thirty. Yeah, it depending how fast 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:38.520 you eat. 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:40.560 So they didn't deliberate it very long, not very long 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:40.800 at all. 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:44.920 There wasn't how long was the trial. It was ten days, 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:45.560 two weeks. 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:47.520 Right, so they were ready to go home. Oh yeah. 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.200 And while actually they weren't sequestered, they are instructed, as 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.800 in all criminal cases, you cannot talk to anybody about this, 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:55.920 don't watch TV, don't read newspapers, don't go in the internet, 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:58.640 even though there wasn'tn internet back then for most of us. 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.760 And so that was a really quick thing. They were 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:06.320 back in no time, and you got to stand up 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:12.480 when they read the verdict. And in my mind anyway, 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:15.840 I was expecting a not guilty verdict because everything that 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:18.720 they had brought forward, for the most part, had been 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:25.120 emotional pleased without any hard data, no irrefutable science. We 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:27.160 had countered everything they threw out there. 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:28.760 It was purely circumstantial. 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:35.360 Yes, that courtroom there was standing room only. And here's 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:40.360 the weird thing. When you're in these really intense, emotional, 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:49.240 weighty situations, you're focused on the judge and the jury, 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:52.680 and for just a moment you're not aware of the 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:56.240 closest people to you being right behind you. You're not 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:58.440 aware that there are a line of cops very nearby 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:02.400 ready to seize you. You're not aware of the sounds, 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:06.640 you're not aware of the temperature. You're very, very focused 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:08.800 on the people that are going to decide your fate 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:11.040 for the rest of your life, right here and right now. 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:17.040 And I had more than an expectation of being found 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:23.800 not guilty. And when they said guilty, it knocked the 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:28.320 wind out of me. And I didn't collapse on the ground, 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:31.399 but my knees buckled and I sat down in my chair, 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:34.120 and it was an involuntary act. If the chair had 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:35.520 not been in there, i'd have fallen to the floor. 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:40.960 And I did hear the wails of my mother. I 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:45.760 think some people were surprised, some people were glad. It 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:48.119 was a real mixed bag. But once the di verdict 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:52.040 was in, then you become the murderous perv, the boogeyman, 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:54.399 the guy there that everybody hates. 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:10.520 So now you're found guilty and you're sent to Texas prison? 0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:15.400 Right? Is it as bad as it sounds. Prison? 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:20.800 It's not what you think it is. It's a subculture. 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:25.359 It's very insular. It's not like the outside world. And 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:28.000 when you get there. I got some great advice while 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:29.920 I was in County jail. There was an old guy 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:34.600 in County jail before I went down to the penitentiary, 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:39.840 and he told me. He said, you'll be okay. You know, 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:41.560 you're a grown man. You're thirty two. You're not going 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:45.120 down there at nineteen. But he said, in the beginning, 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:50.040 keep your mouth shut and your eyes open. And I 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:51.720 found that to be some of the best advice I 0:18:51.760 --> 0:19:00.680 ever received. The penitentiary is a violent place, in terminal 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:05.359 boredom and then absolute horror, and that's kind of what 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:10.240 it's like. But after a while inside you become desensitized 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:11.480 to the violence. 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:13.240 I've heard you talk about the noise. 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:18.680 Do you remember inside there's a constant din or roar. 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:27.719 Gates are slamming, PA systems blaring, a lot of people 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:30.920 talking at the same time. In the mornings, the TV's 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:34.119 come on in the day room, and late at night 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:37.679 they're turned off. In between, they're on different channels and 0:19:37.680 --> 0:19:40.959 they're on full blast, and you're in a concrete and 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:44.040 steel room and the sounds bouncing off and people are 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:47.720 slamming dominoes on metal tables and yelling at each other, 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:54.520 and it's like Dante's Inferno. What keeps you going is 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:57.840 what keeps you going. My first year down there, because 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:00.800 of a similar schedule, I started seeing one guy down 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:02.680 at the gym whenever I would go to the gym, 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:07.720 and just by convenience sake proximity, we started talking. Then 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:10.000 I found out that he had already been there twenty 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:13.800 years when I just drove up. And our personalities we're 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:17.119 close enough where we formed something of a friendship to acquaintances. 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:23.160 And one weekend, somebody on our cell block hanged himself, 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:27.720 died right there, and for a while that was the 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:29.400 talk of the cell block. You know, so and so 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:34.919 killed himself. And my new friend, Lonnie, had been there 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:39.040 a while, he'd seen this happen quite a few times. 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:42.119 And I mentioned it to him and he said, oh yeah. 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:45.760 The guy didn't have anything to look forward to. And 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:48.880 he told me, he said, you have to have hope. 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:54.200 It can be remodeling an old house, restoring an old marriage, 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:57.239 that doesn't matter what it is. You have to have 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:00.000 something look forward to. And in a very offhanded way, 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.239 he said, like you, it's your son, And that's kind 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:03.920 of surprised me. I didn't realize that I was being 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:07.159 that transparent. But he said, without hope, without something to 0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:12.359 look forward to, no matter what it is, you won't 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:13.959 want to get out of bed in the morning. You 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:15.760 won't want to live in that place or the rest 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:19.120 of your life. You'll either hang yourself or cut your 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:22.800 own throat, or jump off the third tier. And I've 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:24.000 seen guys do all three. 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:29.920 Wow, So your son would visit and he was your hope. 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:37.800 Yeah, it is one of those wonderful, strange, I thank 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:41.080 God moments, the kind of thing where you have something 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:45.080 precious and wonderful that you're projecting onto and you're hoping for. 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:49.000 And I got to see him about every six months, 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:55.000 and then that changed. While that was a wonderful thing, 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:59.720 at a certain point, my son reached early puberty, early 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:01.960 team and he's getting tired of coming down there to 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:04.320 see his dad, and the people raising him aren't saying 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:07.840 good things about me, and he wants to end the 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:12.439 visits and he does. And I made him come down 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:17.879 there and tell me that, and your schedule for to 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:21.320 our visits in Texas depending on how far away you are. 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:26.320 And when they came to see me the last time, 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:28.200 got right to it. And asked him if it was 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:32.400 our last visit, and he told me it was. And 0:22:32.480 --> 0:22:36.040 I turned to my sister in law, the lady raising him. 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:38.320 I told him, told her to take good care of 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:40.879 my son. And I told my son that he always 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:41.679 knew where to find me. 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:43.320 And I walked to the visiting room. 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:49.040 That scheduled to our visit last about two minutes. And 0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:52.199 it's one of you hear that kind of news, You 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:54.840 go through that kind of thing. And I'd been inside 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:57.800 a while, and I'd already had something of that shell 0:22:57.840 --> 0:23:01.920 around me, that tough guy persona, but I still felt 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:05.040 as if I'd been kicked in the face. I was numb. 0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:08.960 I was kind of walking through a haze. I knew 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:11.120 the real pain would come later, just like being kicked 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:15.640 in the face. But it's the last time I saw 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:18.639 him while I was inside, and I still had another 0:23:19.920 --> 0:23:24.520 Oh by then another twelve or fourteen years ago. 0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:30.520 So now you your hope is gone. But you didn't 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:33.320 take the let's call it the easy way out. You 0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:38.880 saw guys hanging themselves, jumping off tears, slitting their own throats. 0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:41.200 What did what happened? 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:44.679 Well, I did something that was very uncharacteristic for me 0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:52.600 at the time, I was completely emotionally, utterly just empty, gutted, wounded, 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:54.240 and I didn't know what to do or where to go, 0:23:54.680 --> 0:23:57.560 which way to turn. And the uncharacteristic thing that I 0:23:57.560 --> 0:24:00.240 did is I cried out to God, you know, show 0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:01.480 me something. I got nothing here. 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:03.280 But you are't a religious guy at the time. 0:24:03.359 --> 0:24:08.080 Nah, nah, nah, and get I got nothing. You know, 0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:10.840 I didn't hear this voice from above, you know, Michael, 0:24:11.080 --> 0:24:11.679