1 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: I came from a beautiful neighborhood. 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 2: I had a beautiful life. 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: I went to sleep because September seventh was the first 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: day of my high school year. I was going to 5 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: be a senior. At twenty two, I was set to 6 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: start college. I woke up and my life was never 7 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: the same again. Cops came out with guns drawn, and 8 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: I never saw freedom ever since after that. 9 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: It's like roach mode town once you get in and 10 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 2: I can't now. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 11 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 3: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm today. I'm 12 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 3: extremely pleased and honored to have someone I considered to 13 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 3: be I guess, for lack of a better word, innocence royalty. 14 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 3: Michael Morton, Michael, welcome to the show. 15 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 2: Thank you, Jason. 16 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 1: It's good to be here. 17 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 3: So Michael is an extraordinary person in so many ways. 18 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 3: His case is extraordinary, his life post exoneration is extraordinary. 19 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 3: I didn't know him before this all happened, because that's 20 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 3: a long long time ago. But what he's been able 21 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:24,919 Speaker 3: to accomplish, both inside prison and outside, is the stuff 22 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 3: of legend. 23 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 2: But let's go back. Michael. 24 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 3: You served twenty four years and seven months to the 25 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 3: day in Texas Penitentiary for a crime he didn't commit. 26 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: The day that I walked in the penitentiary was on 27 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: March fourth. Day that I walked out was October fourth. 28 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 3: So you were in prison twenty four to seven. Yeah, 29 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 3: that's that for twenty four years and seven months. But first, 30 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 3: I just want to give the audience a sense of, 31 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 3: you know, what kind of a person you were before 32 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 3: all this stuff happened. 33 00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 2: I like to say that. 34 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: I was the statistical bid point in the American demographic 35 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 1: and that I was incredibly average. I went to SFA 36 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: Stephen at Foston State University in Acadocia, since where I 37 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: met my future wife, right and Christine. Yes, I met 38 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: Christine there. It began as some romances. Do you see 39 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: somebody across the room, you know, and it catches your 40 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: eye or she does in my case, make a long 41 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: story short, the whole deal, married, had a child, thinking 42 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: about getting another child on the way here. You know, mortgage, suburbia, cars, 43 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: credit cards. 44 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 2: All that stuff sounds pretty good. 45 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,679 Speaker 1: It's the average. And that's why I call myself the 46 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: statistical midpoint in American demographic because there was nothing unusual 47 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: about my life. We had moved into our second home. 48 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 1: We sold our first, made a nice little piece of that. 49 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: We were doing well and moving up. That was the idea. 50 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: And it's my thirty second birthday. And the next day, 51 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: when I went to pick up my son from the sitters, 52 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: which was part of my routine, the babysitter looked at 53 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: me in a very odd way. What are you doing here? 54 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: She said that my son wasn't there, that my wife 55 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: hadn't bought him in, which was very unusual for our routine. 56 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: Every family has a rhythm that they live in. And 57 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 1: the fact that I had not received any phone call 58 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: from my wife, she hadn't bought him with the sitters, 59 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: it was very bizarre. So I just snatched the sitter's 60 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: phone off the wall and called home, and to my surprise, 61 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: a man answered and identified himself as the sheriff. And 62 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: he wouldn't tell me anything except I needed to come 63 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: home right away, and. 64 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 2: Your heart is now gone a million miles a minute. Yeah. 65 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: I literally ran to my truck and it's about a 66 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: five minute drive home from there, and five minutes doesn't 67 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: sound much time. I mean, even though you're breaking the 68 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: speed limit and run the stop signs to get home, 69 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: because the sheriff just answered, you're you know, you're running 70 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: a mental inventory. What in the world could have happened, 71 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: and you know you run through well, k could have 72 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: been a fire, could have been a burglary, the wife 73 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: may have been attacked, could be rape, and oh my god, 74 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: could be murdered too. And I knew something had happened 75 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: to my wife. And as I literally slid up to 76 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: my house, there were police cars all around the house, 77 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: a very large yellow crime scene ribbon had been wrapped 78 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: all the way around the yard. And saw a couple 79 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: of cops in the front yard, uniform cops. And there 80 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 1: were neighbors, you know, people I knew, were on the 81 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: sidewalks across the street, little clusters, and as I slipped 82 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 1: the curb, you know, they all took note of me. 83 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: It's almost a priferl awareness, you know, because oh my god, 84 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: what's here happening at my house? But you also see 85 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: the things going on around you, or you sense them. 86 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: And I ducked under the crime and seeing ribbon, and 87 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: I was hanging to the front door when the police 88 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: stopped me because they didn't know who I was. And 89 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: the sheriff showed up very quickly when they stopped me 90 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: out in the front yard, and he identified himself and 91 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: he asked me to identify myself. The first words out 92 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: of my mouth were actually about my son, and the 93 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: sheriff told me that he was fine. He was at 94 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 1: a neighbor's house shoot doors down, and when I asked 95 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: about my wife, he informed me in an almost matter of 96 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 1: fact fashion, that she was dead, and because the house 97 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: appeared to look intact, it hadn't been burned. I asked 98 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: if it was murder, and he said it was yes. 99 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 3: So when did you start to get the sense that 100 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 3: they felt that you were a suspect. 101 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: Initially I did not. They were asking some very odd questions, 102 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 1: and I was intellectualizing, Okay, they have to ask these 103 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: rather pointed, uncomfortable questions because they're trying to piece everything together, 104 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: and you know, they have to eliminate me as a suspect. 105 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: I get that, you know, after all, I've watched TV. 106 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: I know how this works. TV and reality don't always mesh. 107 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: But I got that. It wasn't until a few days later, 108 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: when I was interviewed by the police again and again 109 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: that I was quite frustrated with their line of questioning, 110 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 1: and I was also frustrated with what I perceived to 111 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: be their inability or unwillingness to do this, to do 112 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: this investigation property and professionally. And in a moment of frustration, 113 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: I volunteered for a polygraph test. I said, look, if 114 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: I take a polygraph test, will you believe me? And 115 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: they lit up like very very happy children. And very 116 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: shortly after that is when one of my neighbors, an attorney, 117 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: suggested that I retain counsel. That he had a couple 118 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: of friends who were very good criminal defense attorneys, Bill 119 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: White and Bill Allison in Austin, Texas, and I went 120 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: to see them, and it was shortly before that that 121 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: everything went south. They were gunning for me that, for 122 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: whatever reason, they looked around the crime scene, before any interviews, 123 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: before any lab tests, before a single thing had happened, 124 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: as far as in an investigative sense, they decided that 125 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: I was the guy I had done it. 126 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 2: So ultimately, how long was it before you were arrested 127 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 2: and charged? 128 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: It's about six weeks, pardon me. Six weeks after my 129 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: wife's death, I was home with my son, just the 130 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: two of us, in fact, we were making as much 131 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: as he could help. We're making dinner and we're in 132 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: the kitchen and the knock at the door, and I 133 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: picked up my son because you know, you leave him 134 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: in the kitchen with all the you know, hot water 135 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: boil and all that kind of stuff. This hot went 136 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: to answer the door, and to my utter shock, it 137 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: was the sheriff and number of deputies there to arrest me, 138 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: and I was flabbergasted. I did not expect them to 139 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: do this. And as bad as being arrested is the 140 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: worst part was having my son torn up from my 141 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 1: arms because I tried to think about what was he 142 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: going through. Basically got him there on my hip and 143 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: they're wanting to handcuff me. And the last time my 144 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: son has seen the police had been a really bad day, 145 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: as the day as mother is. 146 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 2: Killed and or imaginable Africa. 147 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: And suddenly the police were back and I could feel 148 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: me wrapped his legs around my waist and he didn't 149 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: want to let go, but they, you know, they peel 150 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: him loose. I was trying to comfort him and he's 151 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: calling for me, and that was the worst part. As 152 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: bad as being arrested is, as much worse seeing what 153 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: I was doing to my son, Because any any parent 154 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: knows that before you have a child, you are the 155 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 1: center of your own universe, and then after you have 156 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: that child, your perspective changes. 157 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 3: Now comes to trial, so you're in now in this 158 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 3: bizarre dream NightWare world of the criminal justice system sort 159 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 3: of working exactly the way it's not supposed to and this, uh, 160 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 3: these prosecutors are up there painting you as a murderer 161 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,319 Speaker 3: and saying all sorts of. 162 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: Being on trial for murder. It's not what you think 163 00:09:55,800 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: you know. Most everybody has their perspective of the way 164 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: these things go because of TV and movies and books. 165 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 2: You read about it. 166 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: You think you know about it, but it's a completely 167 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: separate world. It's a different universe. It's a subculture you're 168 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: not familiar with. They have their own language and they 169 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: have customs and they have rituals that you don't know 170 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: anything about. And the only thing you can do is 171 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 1: listen to your attorneys. I mean, they're supposed to know 172 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: what's going on. They've done it before, they know the 173 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: way the system works. And you're torn between taking their 174 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: advice from these experts you've hired as opposed to the 175 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 1: way you feel about what you should do. And when 176 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: you're torn like that between those two worlds, between what 177 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: you think and what you feel, it's always a battle 178 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 1: of what's in control. I mean, is it your head 179 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: or is it your heart? 180 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 2: You have an example of that, Okay. 181 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: One of the purely fabricated issues in my trial was 182 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: that the prosecutor came up with this idea that because 183 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: there was a semen stained on our bed on the sheets, 184 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: that in his mind that meant that I had masturbated 185 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: with my wife's dead hand. 186 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 2: Wow. 187 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I didn't know where that came from. And 188 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: you want to jump up and scream and you know, 189 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: deny it, maybe calling names or just you know that 190 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: kind of insult. You almost want to jump on somebody. 191 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: And yet you know that this is a sort of 192 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: a binary adversarial kind of Okay, you'll get your turn, 193 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 1: sit down, you know, be cool, don't make the jury 194 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 1: think you're some kind of nut, and you know, we'll 195 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: clean this up. And so that's the kind of thing 196 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: that you're torn between. Is you know that you should 197 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: take your attorney's advice because of the stuff that said, 198 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: steak here your very life and yet you have this 199 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: visceral response to some of these accusations that are just bloney. 200 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 2: You know, where did this come from. 201 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 3: Let's talk for a second about the exculpatory evidence that 202 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 3: was withheld. 203 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the great things that the Innocence Project 204 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: does is their DNA exonerations. But you never know what 205 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: a DNA test is going to reveal until you run 206 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: the DNA test. And so before the tests were actually done, 207 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: they had a parallel legal attack on my case, and 208 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: one of them was a Texas Open Records Act, which 209 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: is very very similar to the Freedom Information Act at 210 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: the federal level. And so we actually got access to 211 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: the prosecutor and the sheriff's files from eighty six and 212 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: eighty seven, and at this time, you know, we're in 213 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 1: the twenty first century looking back in this is the 214 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 1: appellate thing. And in those files we found out that, 215 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: despite the request by my attorneys and a direct order 216 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: from the judge, the prosecution and the shriff's department suppressed 217 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: key pieces of evidence that would have pointed to my 218 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: innocence and would have helped immensely at our trial. And 219 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: my attorneys were begging for this kind of stuff, but 220 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: they had no mechanism to get to it because the 221 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: prosecutor was between us and the evidence. And one of 222 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: the things was a check that had been cash after 223 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: my wife's death, a instance of her credit card being used, 224 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: supposedly down in San Antonio few days after her death. 225 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 1: And the biggie was this transcript of a phone call. 226 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: My son, unbeknownst to me, had apparently witnessed my wife's murder. 227 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,599 Speaker 1: Remember now, he was three at the time, and everybody, 228 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: I mean even the police, were concerned about my son. 229 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: And in the time between my wife's murder and my incarceration, 230 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: I had taken him to several child psychologists and some 231 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: he got along with some he didn't. But the gist 232 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: of it all was that they all told me, look, 233 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: he is obviously so offering from what you might call 234 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: separation anxiety because his mother's gone. But we don't believe 235 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: that he has witnessed anything horrible, or more importantly, nothing 236 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: horribly been done to him, and so that was a 237 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: bit of release, but relief. 238 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 2: Rather. 239 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: However, unbeknownst to me, he had told my mother in law, 240 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: his grandmother, that he mentioned a lot of things about 241 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: my wife being murdered, to her, and he mentioned some 242 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: very physical, distinct things about the crime scene that police 243 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: had withheld from the media that only they knew, which 244 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: is part of procedure because if somebody wants to come 245 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: up and confess, they have to kind of prove that 246 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: they did it, or they also want to be able 247 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: to prove or catch somebody who's being interrogated. So, you know, 248 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: here's this transcript of my son's admissions about witnessing my 249 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: wife's murder, which would have been huge because he talked 250 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: about a man with a big mustache and red gloves 251 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: and having to hit mommy and think, goodness, my mother 252 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: law had asked him where why I was? You know, 253 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: was Daddy there? And my son very distinctly said no, 254 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: And so that would have been a wild wonderful thing 255 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: to have a trial. 256 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 2: Well, it would have led to your exoneration. 257 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 3: So the jury is requestered the argument, the closing arguments 258 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 3: have been done. 259 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 2: The jury goes out, how long were they out for? 260 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: I think it was about ninety minutes, but that doesn't 261 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: mean they deliberated for ninety minutes because they also had lunch, so. 262 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 2: It could have been forty five minutes. 263 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: It could have been thirty. Yeah, it depending how fast 264 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: you eat. 265 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 2: So they didn't deliberate it very long, not very long 266 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 2: at all. 267 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: There wasn't how long was the trial. It was ten days, 268 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: two weeks. 269 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 2: Right, so they were ready to go home. Oh yeah. 270 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: And while actually they weren't sequestered, they are instructed, as 271 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: in all criminal cases, you cannot talk to anybody about this, 272 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: don't watch TV, don't read newspapers, don't go in the internet, 273 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: even though there wasn'tn internet back then for most of us. 274 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: And so that was a really quick thing. They were 275 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: back in no time, and you got to stand up 276 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: when they read the verdict. And in my mind anyway, 277 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: I was expecting a not guilty verdict because everything that 278 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: they had brought forward, for the most part, had been 279 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: emotional pleased without any hard data, no irrefutable science. We 280 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: had countered everything they threw out there. 281 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 2: It was purely circumstantial. 282 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: Yes, that courtroom there was standing room only. And here's 283 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: the weird thing. When you're in these really intense, emotional, 284 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: weighty situations, you're focused on the judge and the jury, 285 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: and for just a moment you're not aware of the 286 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: closest people to you being right behind you. You're not 287 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: aware that there are a line of cops very nearby 288 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: ready to seize you. You're not aware of the sounds, 289 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: you're not aware of the temperature. You're very, very focused 290 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: on the people that are going to decide your fate 291 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: for the rest of your life, right here and right now. 292 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: And I had more than an expectation of being found 293 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: not guilty. And when they said guilty, it knocked the 294 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: wind out of me. And I didn't collapse on the ground, 295 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 1: but my knees buckled and I sat down in my chair, 296 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 1: and it was an involuntary act. If the chair had 297 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: not been in there, i'd have fallen to the floor. 298 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: And I did hear the wails of my mother. I 299 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: think some people were surprised, some people were glad. It 300 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: was a real mixed bag. But once the di verdict 301 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: was in, then you become the murderous perv, the boogeyman, 302 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 1: the guy there that everybody hates. 303 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 3: So now you're found guilty and you're sent to Texas prison? 304 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 2: Right? Is it as bad as it sounds. Prison? 305 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: It's not what you think it is. It's a subculture. 306 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: It's very insular. It's not like the outside world. And 307 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: when you get there. I got some great advice while 308 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: I was in County jail. There was an old guy 309 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: in County jail before I went down to the penitentiary, 310 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: and he told me. He said, you'll be okay. You know, 311 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: you're a grown man. You're thirty two. You're not going 312 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 1: down there at nineteen. But he said, in the beginning, 313 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: keep your mouth shut and your eyes open. And I 314 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: found that to be some of the best advice I 315 00:18:51,760 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 1: ever received. The penitentiary is a violent place, in terminal 316 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: boredom and then absolute horror, and that's kind of what 317 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: it's like. But after a while inside you become desensitized 318 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: to the violence. 319 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 2: I've heard you talk about the noise. 320 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: Do you remember inside there's a constant din or roar. 321 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:27,719 Speaker 1: Gates are slamming, PA systems blaring, a lot of people 322 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: talking at the same time. In the mornings, the TV's 323 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: come on in the day room, and late at night 324 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 1: they're turned off. In between, they're on different channels and 325 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,959 Speaker 1: they're on full blast, and you're in a concrete and 326 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: steel room and the sounds bouncing off and people are 327 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: slamming dominoes on metal tables and yelling at each other, 328 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: and it's like Dante's Inferno. What keeps you going is 329 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: what keeps you going. My first year down there, because 330 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: of a similar schedule, I started seeing one guy down 331 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: at the gym whenever I would go to the gym, 332 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: and just by convenience sake proximity, we started talking. Then 333 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: I found out that he had already been there twenty 334 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: years when I just drove up. And our personalities we're 335 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: close enough where we formed something of a friendship to acquaintances. 336 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 1: And one weekend, somebody on our cell block hanged himself, 337 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: died right there, and for a while that was the 338 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 1: talk of the cell block. You know, so and so 339 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 1: killed himself. And my new friend, Lonnie, had been there 340 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: a while, he'd seen this happen quite a few times. 341 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: And I mentioned it to him and he said, oh yeah. 342 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: The guy didn't have anything to look forward to. And 343 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,880 Speaker 1: he told me, he said, you have to have hope. 344 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: It can be remodeling an old house, restoring an old marriage, 345 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,239 Speaker 1: that doesn't matter what it is. You have to have 346 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: something look forward to. And in a very offhanded way, 347 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,239 Speaker 1: he said, like you, it's your son, And that's kind 348 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: of surprised me. I didn't realize that I was being 349 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 1: that transparent. But he said, without hope, without something to 350 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 1: look forward to, no matter what it is, you won't 351 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:13,959 Speaker 1: want to get out of bed in the morning. You 352 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: won't want to live in that place or the rest 353 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 1: of your life. You'll either hang yourself or cut your 354 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: own throat, or jump off the third tier. And I've 355 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: seen guys do all three. 356 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 2: Wow, So your son would visit and he was your hope. 357 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is one of those wonderful, strange, I thank 358 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: God moments, the kind of thing where you have something 359 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: precious and wonderful that you're projecting onto and you're hoping for. 360 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: And I got to see him about every six months, 361 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: and then that changed. While that was a wonderful thing, 362 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: at a certain point, my son reached early puberty, early 363 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: team and he's getting tired of coming down there to 364 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: see his dad, and the people raising him aren't saying 365 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: good things about me, and he wants to end the 366 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 1: visits and he does. And I made him come down 367 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: there and tell me that, and your schedule for to 368 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: our visits in Texas depending on how far away you are. 369 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: And when they came to see me the last time, 370 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: got right to it. And asked him if it was 371 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: our last visit, and he told me it was. And 372 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 1: I turned to my sister in law, the lady raising him. 373 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: I told him, told her to take good care of 374 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: my son. And I told my son that he always 375 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 1: knew where to find me. 376 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 2: And I walked to the visiting room. 377 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: That scheduled to our visit last about two minutes. And 378 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,199 Speaker 1: it's one of you hear that kind of news, You 379 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: go through that kind of thing. And I'd been inside 380 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 1: a while, and I'd already had something of that shell 381 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 1: around me, that tough guy persona, but I still felt 382 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: as if I'd been kicked in the face. I was numb. 383 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: I was kind of walking through a haze. I knew 384 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,120 Speaker 1: the real pain would come later, just like being kicked 385 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 1: in the face. But it's the last time I saw 386 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: him while I was inside, and I still had another 387 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: Oh by then another twelve or fourteen years ago. 388 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 3: So now you your hope is gone. But you didn't 389 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 3: take the let's call it the easy way out. You 390 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 3: saw guys hanging themselves, jumping off tears, slitting their own throats. 391 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 2: What did what happened? 392 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 1: Well, I did something that was very uncharacteristic for me 393 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: at the time, I was completely emotionally, utterly just empty, gutted, wounded, 394 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: and I didn't know what to do or where to go, 395 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: which way to turn. And the uncharacteristic thing that I 396 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: did is I cried out to God, you know, show 397 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: me something. I got nothing here. 398 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 2: But you are't a religious guy at the time. 399 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: Nah, nah, nah, and get I got nothing. You know, 400 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: I didn't hear this voice from above, you know, Michael, 401 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 1: it's gonna rain. 402 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 2: Build a boat. 403 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: It was absolutely nothing. And you know what, in all 404 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: candor that not getting a response was sort of what 405 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: I expected because things had been going so badly for 406 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: so long. Yeah, why is it going to change in 407 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: a heartbeat like this? You know, just because I'm suffering? 408 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 2: Boo hoo. 409 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: And then about a week or so later, completely normal day, 410 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: nothing special, work, jim eat, sleep. It's late at nights, 411 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 1: my usual bedtime. My cell partners on the bottom bunk, 412 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: he's already sleep. I decided to kill the light and 413 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: turn on the radio, go down the dial a few times, 414 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: and call it a night. With your headphones, yes, with 415 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: my headphones on. That was that was my routine. I 416 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: had done this thousands of nights Before this, this was 417 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: just what you do in the penitentiary, and every indicator 418 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: a pellet and otherwise is I was going to be 419 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: doing this for thousands of more nights. This was my life, 420 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: and so I did this. At the time, I was 421 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: in a penitential a little south of Houston, and I 422 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 1: picked up a classical station out of Houston, and there's 423 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: a what sounded to me like a lady playing a harp. 424 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: You know, you might have been a guy, but in 425 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 1: my mind, I'm listening to this lady playing a harp. 426 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: And I don't know about you, but you don't hear 427 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: too much harp music on the radio. It's just. 428 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 2: Or in prison, especially in prison. 429 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: And so I listened to him for a moment because 430 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: that's something of a novelty. And now it's comically apropos 431 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: But after listening to that for just a moment, with 432 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: no warning whatsoever, just boom like that, I found myself 433 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:04,440 Speaker 1: bathed in golden light, inexplicable, wonderful, beautiful, reassuring golden light. 434 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: And I could see nothing but this golden light. And 435 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: I heard this roaring in my ears, and I felt wonderful. 436 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: I don't know if I was, but I felt like 437 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: I might have been floating on my buck I don't know. 438 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: I just this wonderful, fantastic, beautiful sensation, and I was sure, 439 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: without having to be having it explained to me, it 440 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: was self evident that I was in the presence of God. 441 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: And I felt this reassurance and this undeniable, limitless focus 442 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: of love aimed right at me. And it was profound 443 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: and wonderful and reassuring and a fantastic and it changed 444 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 1: everything about me and my perspective and my life. And 445 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 1: then I heard my alarm going off, and I reflexively 446 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 1: just turned it off, like I did every morning, and 447 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 1: I sat up in my bunk and I thought, WHOA, 448 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: I'm not accustomed supernatural experiences. I don't have a psychistory. 449 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: I don't you know all the stuff. And I'm going 450 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: I knew what that was. But like all profound things 451 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: in your life, I think why. It's probably the most 452 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: important question you can ask. And I didn't have a clue. 453 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 1: Why did this happen to me? Here I am some 454 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: guy just sitting the penitentiary. And I spent probably months 455 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 1: chewing on this, thinking, reading, talking to people, giving a 456 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: little praying about you know what's going on here. And 457 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 1: the simplest thing is what you might call Ockham's razor, 458 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: that philosophical notion that the simplest explanation, until proven wrong, 459 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: is probably the best. And it hit me that the 460 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: only thing that had happened is I had asked, you know, 461 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: help God, please show me something. I got nothing here. 462 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 2: You literally had nothing. 463 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: I nowhere to go. And he said, okay, look, And 464 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: I knew this is real because it changed me inside. 465 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: This wasn't some sort of, you know, intellectual conclusion I 466 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: reached after, you know, some kind of investigation. This this 467 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: is something that happened to me. And the reason I 468 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 1: know that it's real and almost irrational but genuine, is 469 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 1: that I'm different. After this happened to me, I wanted 470 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: different things, and I disliked other things. In fact, my 471 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: life did a point eighty. The things that I had 472 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: hated now I was loving them. The things that I 473 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: had loved, now I was hating them, and the whole, 474 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: the good, bad, the right and wrong dynamic. There the 475 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: conundmum we all wrestle with was suddenly plain to me. 476 00:28:51,800 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: It made sense, and things did get better. 477 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 3: It took a long time from there, right, But then 478 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 3: the Innocence Project. Let's talk about the Innocence Project. You are, yeah, 479 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 3: you're a big fan, you can say that. Yeah, what 480 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,719 Speaker 3: happened was early on. 481 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: DNA was just in its infancy when I got convicted, 482 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: and as things started evolving, you started seeing these things 483 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: in the newspaper, were on TV. And not only did 484 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: I write a letter, but my parents did, my aunt did, 485 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: my sister did. Thence to the Instance Project asking for 486 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: you know, hey, look at my case. The Instance Project 487 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: is very above board, very transparent. 488 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's no jumping the line, so to speak, except 489 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 3: for death penalty cases, which of course those have to 490 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 3: go to the front because otherwise it's too late and 491 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 3: there's no reversing that. 492 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: But so, but your case did make it to the 493 00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 2: top of the to the top of the pile. 494 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:07,719 Speaker 1: Case got resolved because in essence of DNA evidence, there 495 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: were lots of questions. We talked about that accusation of 496 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: being the murderous perv with my wife's the dead hand. 497 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: Well there was a stain on the bed sheet, there 498 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: are you know, there was an autopsy. So we start 499 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: slowly getting incremental successes in court about okay, well, test 500 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: that stain test, some of the the swaps from the autopsy, 501 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: and we're and there's also like there's this bandana that 502 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: was found behind our house that had human blood on it. 503 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: But that's as far as they ever went because, you know, 504 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: eighty six eighty seven, there was no advanced scientific way 505 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: of finding out what was what. So we're starting to 506 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: get these tests done and the courts being I don't 507 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: want to say biased, but you know, the the Pellet 508 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: court seemed to lean towards the prosecution. You have, you know, 509 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: you have a conviction here, and you're upsetting the apple a. 510 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 2: Bit, a perfectly good conviction. 511 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, Well what are you trying to 512 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: do here? You're trying to undermine the process. And so 513 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: these things are being tested, but they're coming back either 514 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: negative or inconclusive. For instance, like the stain on the 515 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: sheet that came about with the whole murder's perv accusation, 516 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 1: we'll come to find out that wasn't what they called 517 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: a neat stain. That was what's in every marriage bed. 518 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: It's what they called a mixed stain of both male 519 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: and female fluids. It's in every marriage bed. And so 520 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: that kind of completely blew that whole pervert aspect of 521 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: that accusation. But then also the swaps from the autopsy 522 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: those came back negative, negative, negative, And so it's looking 523 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: like there's less and less to happen here. Things just 524 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: aren't looking good. In fact, I even sent a letter 525 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: to the Instance Project that you know, I understand you've 526 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: been moving head on earth here, but it looks like 527 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: we're not getting much results here and if you have 528 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: to step away, I understand because the Instance Project has 529 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: limited resources and they can't just throw good money after 530 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: bad on an unwin case. And the last piece of 531 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: evidence that they fought, fought and fought and finally got 532 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: access to was this blue bandana that was found behind 533 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: my house that had some blood on it, and they 534 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: finally got it tested and in a almost a supernatural revelation, 535 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: the the are some project aways. Has to have an 536 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 1: attorney of record from the state where they're where they're 537 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: carrying out this appeal, and this one was John Rayley. 538 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: He was a pro bono lawyer out of Houston. He's 539 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: a civil attorney, never done a criminal case in his life, 540 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 1: but he and Nina Morrison with the Instant the Project 541 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: did a lot of the underlying work of this and 542 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: if the hearing before this blue bandana was tested, John 543 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: really says something I was reading the record about it, 544 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: that this bandana, he said, we should test it, your honor, 545 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 1: because it might have the victims DNA on it, it 546 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: might have the assailants DNA on it. It might have 547 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: the key to turning to turning this whole case around. 548 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: But unless you test it or allow us to test it, 549 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: we'll never know. And the Answers Project is willing to 550 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: pay for everything, the lap test that transports everything. Just 551 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: just let us do it and we will either confirm 552 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: your conviction and make it unassailable or will free an 553 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: innocent man. And in a wildly weirdly profought prophetic sort 554 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: of statement, that's what was said in court. And that's 555 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: exactly what happened. Is that bandana had my wife's DNA 556 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: on it, and it also had co mingled DNA with 557 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: hers on that bandana belonging to a male, not me, 558 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: And that's wonderful, But that wasn't a get out of 559 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: JEO free card. 560 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 3: But there was another break in the case, which is 561 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 3: that the actual killer who And this is tragic, another. 562 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 2: Tragic aspect of this, There. 563 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 3: Was a very similar murder nearby in the months after 564 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 3: your wife's murder. 565 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was inside the penitential about seventeen months when 566 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: another murder was committed in Austin. What's bizarre is in 567 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 1: a very creepy way. The victim of this murder was 568 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: a woman named Deborah Baker. I like my wife. She 569 00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: was a woman in her early thirties, long dark hair, 570 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: young child was home alone at the time. There was 571 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 1: no forced entry at either home. They were both beaten 572 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 1: to death about the head and very violent deaths. The 573 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: houses were ransacked a bit, some things were taken, some 574 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: things were left behind. It was very unusual. And this 575 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: it all had happened on the thirteenth of the month. 576 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 2: And it's a lot of coincidence. 577 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: When the DNA from that bandana was run through Cotis, 578 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 1: I actually got news of it on my birthday, a 579 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: few months after the DNA was first found, and there 580 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 1: was a hit on Cotis and this guy named Mark 581 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:33,439 Speaker 1: Norwood was on the bandana and my attorney friend, John 582 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: Rayley's wife and a an legal paralegal and RN had 583 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: gotten together and they were on the Internet and they 584 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: were looking up cold cases in Austin, and they found 585 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 1: this woman's case that paralleled, if not mirrored, my own, 586 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 1: and they brought it to the Austin Police department and 587 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: they said, look, we've got this case and the almost identical. 588 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: We've got your perpetrator who in one case we think 589 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: he's good for the other one. And here's his name, 590 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,839 Speaker 1: here's his DNA profile, and here's his address. We think 591 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: he might want to look at him. And they did, 592 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: and they did the great credit. Oh absolutely, this was 593 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: a different police department than had come after me, and 594 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: they were gung ho and they match it up immediately, 595 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,880 Speaker 1: and within weeks they had after my release, they arrested 596 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:34,879 Speaker 1: this guy. And these two murders were frighteningly similar. And 597 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: that was the impetus to make the prosecutor who was 598 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: handling the Pellet situation for the county, agreed to let 599 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,720 Speaker 1: me out because there was another murder. 600 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 3: You're freed out into the sunshine twenty four years and 601 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 3: seven days, twenty four hours a day. And then things 602 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 3: take another interesting turn, right, which is that it's it's 603 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 3: a crazy thing that in this country, no prosecutor has 604 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:10,280 Speaker 3: ever gone to jail until your case for a wrongful 605 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 3: conviction resulting in incarceration. But Ken Anderson was now a judge, right, 606 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 3: he had been promoted, And that's that's a crazy thing too, Right, 607 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 3: he won District Attorney of the Year after he wrongly 608 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 3: convicted you and ralful convicted you, and it was ultimately 609 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 3: became Ultimately he became a judge. 610 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 2: And so. 611 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 3: The prosecutor from misconduct was uncovered. Right, the fact that 612 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 3: he had in fact had access and was aware of 613 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:43,240 Speaker 3: these pieces of evidence. 614 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: After I got out, they had a quarter of inquiry 615 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: in Texas to determine whether or not anything had happened. 616 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 1: Didn't rely on his memory, didn't rely on what other 617 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 1: people said. There was a record of these things being requested. 618 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,359 Speaker 1: I mean when the judge asked to prosecutor straight up, 619 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 1: do you have anything else, and they say no, that's 620 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: against the law, that violates Brady. And what happened to 621 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 1: Ken Anderson was here's this sitting judge and the state 622 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,799 Speaker 1: bar in the state of Texas. They're coming after him. 623 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 1: And at the end of it all, there were there 624 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 1: were some issues with you know, statue limitations, some other things, 625 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: but the bottom line was there was a plea. At 626 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: the end of it all. He was removed from the bench, 627 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:30,319 Speaker 1: which was a great thing because he can no longer 628 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: do to me what he did other folks. He also 629 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 1: had his law license taken away. He had I think 630 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,240 Speaker 1: it was a five hundred dollar of fine, five hundred 631 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: hours community service. And for all the lawyers are telling 632 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: me that, for the first time that anybody knows of 633 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 1: in America, he was a judge was acted well, a 634 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 1: prosecutor was sent to jail for misconduct and murder trial. 635 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 1: And if you know anybody in the criminal justice world 636 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 1: talks to the lawyers, this sent ripples all across the country. 637 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: This hadn't happened before. And I was amazed at the 638 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: the way that the other lawyers were incensed. Not just 639 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,440 Speaker 1: the defense bar, but the prosecutors hated this too, because 640 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 1: it's like when there's a bad cop revealed, the other 641 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 1: cops dislike it because it makes them look bad. It 642 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 1: makes their job more difficult, because when people don't trust 643 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: the criminal justice system, they'll just opt out. And so 644 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,439 Speaker 1: this was a huge deal. This judge, the sitting judge, 645 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,799 Speaker 1: was held accountable for something he had done, you know, 646 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: twenty five years ago, and took a huge chunk of 647 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:44,240 Speaker 1: my life. And the family of the other victim, Deborah Baker, 648 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,240 Speaker 1: they were heartbroken and incensed at the same time because 649 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 1: had this judge, who used to be a prosecutor, had 650 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,879 Speaker 1: he done a job properly, had he not gone after 651 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: me by suppressing evidence, their mother, wife's sister, that family 652 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 1: Mamber deb A Baker might be a life today. 653 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:03,359 Speaker 2: She likely would be. 654 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 3: And it's really a terrible another terrible outcome of this 655 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:12,840 Speaker 3: whole situation, this whole crooked situation. There's one more wonderful 656 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:18,359 Speaker 3: aspect of this, right, which is that you've gone well, 657 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 3: aside from being on sixty Minutes and having a movie 658 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:26,799 Speaker 3: made about you and getting remarried and re establishing your 659 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,799 Speaker 3: relationship with your son and a book then book is 660 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 3: called Getting Life, Getting Life. But on top of that, 661 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 3: I think the thing that is really going to be 662 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,320 Speaker 3: a big part of your legacy it is the Michael 663 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:41,919 Speaker 3: Morton Act. 664 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:44,879 Speaker 2: And let's talk about that. 665 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,959 Speaker 1: This is a model law that Canaan should be used 666 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,280 Speaker 1: as a template across the country in each state because 667 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 1: each state is ConTroll of it. O criminalisis system. The 668 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 1: bulk of or the essence of it is that if 669 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,359 Speaker 1: you're a charge with the crime. God forbid that the 670 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 1: state should and is required to turn over to the 671 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,879 Speaker 1: citizen the evidence they have against you at trial. They 672 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: just can't make it up. They have to actually have 673 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:15,319 Speaker 1: hard evidence, and they have to share it with you, 674 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 1: just like it happens in a civil trial. That the 675 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 1: criminal justice side of it should be like the civil 676 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: justice side of it, and so sharing of files isn't 677 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:29,840 Speaker 1: undermining the prosecutor side. I've talked to a lot of 678 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:34,360 Speaker 1: prosecutors and prosecutor groups since I've been out. This actually 679 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: protects them from certain appellate review. It makes their cases 680 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,799 Speaker 1: stronger if they can prove, as a byproduct of the 681 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: process that they've been transparent and they've shared everything, that 682 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,839 Speaker 1: they've been above board and it's been a legitimate prosecution. 683 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 1: That they just share their files, the police reports, the 684 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: lab reports. You know, if it shows that the time 685 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:03,440 Speaker 1: of death was something that would clear the defendant, that 686 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,279 Speaker 1: should be known. Or if that time of death really 687 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,759 Speaker 1: nails the guy, that should be shown too. Because we're 688 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: having public trials. And I did not name it, but 689 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: the Michael Mortnack in Texas does that. It codifies Brady 690 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,719 Speaker 1: and it forces them to do what's right. I like 691 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,800 Speaker 1: using the analogy of you're playing cards and you're playing 692 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 1: for money. The prosecutor gets to deal the cards. Well, 693 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 1: it used to be that he would also or she 694 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,200 Speaker 1: would not just deal you the cards, but look at 695 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 1: the cards beforehand and decide whether or not you should 696 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,799 Speaker 1: get them. And that's not a level of playing field. 697 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 1: They shouldn't be able to do that. Number one, it's 698 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,960 Speaker 1: not fair, but it also puts an unfair burden on 699 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 1: the prosecutors that temptation to tilt the field towards them. 700 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,279 Speaker 4: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you 701 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 4: get your podcasts. It really else And I'm a proud 702 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 4: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll 703 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 4: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping 704 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 4: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org 705 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 4: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like 706 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 4: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. 707 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,720 Speaker 4: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR 708 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 4: nominated composer Jay Ralph. 709 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:23,239 Speaker 2: Be sure to. 710 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,799 Speaker 3: Follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook 711 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,840 Speaker 3: at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is 712 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,360 Speaker 3: a production of Lava for Good podcasts and association with 713 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,400 Speaker 3: signal Company Number one