Speaker 1: Guess what will what's that man go? So this week
Speaker 1: I was thinking back on one of my favorite Mr.
Speaker 1: Rogers facts. It's about when Coco the Gorilla met Mr Rogers.
Speaker 1: You're on Coco with the Gorilla, right, I love Coco. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she was the one that she knew sign language, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right. So when Coco met Mr Rogers, she was
Speaker 1: already a huge fan. Apparently, scientists used to play the
Speaker 1: program for Cocos. So when he walked in, she got
Speaker 1: really excited. And not only did she give him like
Speaker 1: this big hug, and Coco was I mean like she
Speaker 1: was big, right, yeah, enormous, So you have to imagine
Speaker 1: this giant gorilla just enveloping this rail thin man. But
Speaker 1: then she started taking his shoes off, and he was
Speaker 1: a little surprised, but then he realized she was only
Speaker 1: doing that because it was the same way he used
Speaker 1: to start every single show. I mean, well, everybody loves Mr.
Speaker 1: Rogers exactly, and there are a million stories about how
Speaker 1: good and kind he was in real life and just
Speaker 1: how beloved he was, even by gorillas. But with all
Speaker 1: the tension and politics and general horrible nous going on
Speaker 1: in the world today, we thought it'd be nice to
Speaker 1: do a little Thanksgiving show about one of our favorite
Speaker 1: neighbors and really one of my favorite humans, Fred Rogers.
Speaker 1: Let's dive in, kay. Welcome wartime genius. I'm Will Pearson
Speaker 1: and as always I'm joined by my good friend Man Guesh.
Speaker 1: I ticketter and sitting behind the sound proof glass zipping
Speaker 1: up his card again. Over that another card. It's two
Speaker 1: card against double card again. That's our friend and producer
Speaker 1: Tristan McNeil. Alright, so Ango, we're obviously talking about Mr
Speaker 1: Rogers today, and I'm guessing you watched a ton of
Speaker 1: Mr Rogers growing up. I did, I mean from our generation.
Speaker 1: I really don't know anyone who wasn't influenced by Mr Rogers.
Speaker 1: But at my house, we didn't watch a ton of TV,
Speaker 1: but we watched a lot of PBS, like we watched
Speaker 1: Sesame Street and reading Rambo. We actually subscribed to three
Speaker 1: to one Contact magazine, which actually had an influence on
Speaker 1: Metal Floss and and uh, you know, there were shows
Speaker 1: like Square one and Carmen San Diego. But I definitely
Speaker 1: remember watching Mr Rogers and talking to the screen when
Speaker 1: Mr Rogers would ask questions, and also like learning Little
Speaker 1: tricks from the show for some reason, always cracked me up.
Speaker 1: I love watching kids talk to my kids still do that.
Speaker 1: But so, do you remember what tricks you learned? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean this is kind of ridiculous, but there was
Speaker 1: an episode where he was doing some craft and he
Speaker 1: made a little paper house just out of like a
Speaker 1: single sheet of construction paper, and then he bent and
Speaker 1: cut out a front door so that would open like
Speaker 1: a real door. And for some reason I kind of
Speaker 1: filed that away. And then in kindergarten during this holiday party,
Speaker 1: when we were coloring gingerbread houses, I snuck over to
Speaker 1: this tin of scissors and cut out the front door
Speaker 1: like I had seen just two sniffs, so swing open
Speaker 1: or whatever. And all the adults were so impressed. And
Speaker 1: when everyone asked me how I'd come up with such
Speaker 1: a clever idea, I just kind of shrugged. I took
Speaker 1: credit for it. I know, I totally stole it from
Speaker 1: Mr Rogers, and I will carry that guilt. I would too.
Speaker 1: That's pretty stealing from Mr Rogers. And I'm sure those
Speaker 1: adults are still talking about it too, how creative that
Speaker 1: mango is. But yeah, of course I watched Mr Rogers too,
Speaker 1: but it was. It was always funny how Mr Rogers
Speaker 1: kind of became this thing at at Mental Flaws, it
Speaker 1: was really your thing, and you wrote an article about
Speaker 1: him when we first launched the website. I think it
Speaker 1: was called like fifteen Reasons Mr Rogers was the best
Speaker 1: neighbor ever, something like that. So I honestly think he
Speaker 1: should be America's patron saint. I probably watched a little
Speaker 1: more Mr Rogers than most people because my mom was
Speaker 1: a preschool teacher. And actually, what's funny is that story
Speaker 1: for Mental Flass was actually the second list I'd written
Speaker 1: about Mr Rogers. Really, so what was the what was
Speaker 1: the first? Well, in seventh grade, we had to do
Speaker 1: this writing assignment where we talked about an inspirational figure
Speaker 1: in our lives and we had to get in front
Speaker 1: of the class for five minutes, and it was supposed
Speaker 1: to be serious. I think, uh, some kids talked about
Speaker 1: their grandparents or people they considered heroes, but instead of
Speaker 1: writting something meaningful, I think I was trying to impress
Speaker 1: some girls in my class. So I decided to do
Speaker 1: mine on Mr Rogers and why I thought he should
Speaker 1: be president, and I presented it as a top ten list,
Speaker 1: which was super edgy at the time, but the whole
Speaker 1: thing was full of bad jokes about how he'd make
Speaker 1: America feel special. And I'd also really gotten into Eddie
Speaker 1: Murphy at the time, so I'd seen Eddie Murphy's SNL parody.
Speaker 1: But I also included things like how Mr Rogers had
Speaker 1: actually really influenced my style wearing cardigans and low top sneakers.
Speaker 1: I put so little effort into this thing, and honestly,
Speaker 1: most of my five minutes was spent with me on
Speaker 1: a stool, slowly zipping up my sweater and uh, putting
Speaker 1: on sneakers, just really hamming it off. I don't know
Speaker 1: why this is so easy for me to picture, like
Speaker 1: you giving that same presentation now, but it is funny.
Speaker 1: If you had not mentioned Mr Robinson or Eddie Murphy's
Speaker 1: character on SNL, I definitely was going to there. There
Speaker 1: was a good story about this. I actually read that
Speaker 1: one time Fred Rogers happened to be at thirty Rocks,
Speaker 1: so he decided to sneak in and surprise Eddie Murphy,
Speaker 1: you know, just to meet him in person. So he
Speaker 1: goes up and knocks on his door, and when Eddie
Speaker 1: opens it, He was, of course stunned. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: Mr Rogers just standing there grinning at him, and so
Speaker 1: Eddie was supposedly a little bit embarrassed by the situation,
Speaker 1: but he just gives him a big hug and smiles
Speaker 1: and says, it's the real Mr Robinson. Oh, I love that.
Speaker 1: So so did your class like your presentation? Not to
Speaker 1: go back to that, but it's just I can't stop
Speaker 1: thinking about it. Like it, I think so. But the
Speaker 1: worst part was that the teacher liked it, so for
Speaker 1: the next assignment she made everyone else do a top
Speaker 1: ten list of celebrities that should be president, right, which
Speaker 1: we have now, I guess. But honestly, now that I'm
Speaker 1: saying this out loud, all of it makes zero's sense,
Speaker 1: you know. I know we both read and loved Tom
Speaker 1: Juno's piece for Esquire years later and realized what an
Speaker 1: amazing figure Mr Rogers actually was. There's so many incredible
Speaker 1: parts of the story, but one of the things I
Speaker 1: loved most was that wherever Fred went, people wanted to
Speaker 1: tell him how much he meant to them. Everywhere. Actually,
Speaker 1: I pulled this passage from the story because I wanted
Speaker 1: to read it here. It says um quote. Once upon
Speaker 1: a time Mr Rogers went to New York City and
Speaker 1: got caught in the rain. He didn't have an umbrella,
Speaker 1: and he couldn't find the taxi either, so he ducked
Speaker 1: with a friend in the subway and got on one
Speaker 1: of the trains. It was late in the day and
Speaker 1: the train was crowded with children who were going home
Speaker 1: from school. So of all races, the school children were
Speaker 1: mostly black and Latino, and and they didn't even approach
Speaker 1: Mr Rogers and asked him for his autograph or anything
Speaker 1: like that. They just sang. They sang all at once,
Speaker 1: all together the song he sings at the start of
Speaker 1: his program, Won't You Be My Neighbor? And it turned
Speaker 1: this clattering train into a single, soft, runaway choir. I mean,
Speaker 1: it isn't just great, that's so wonderful. I mean he
Speaker 1: did do eight episodes and thirty one seasons of that show,
Speaker 1: so um I looked up the numbers and it reached
Speaker 1: eight million families every week, So obviously he was bound
Speaker 1: to run into some fans. But that Juno piece is
Speaker 1: honestly one of my favorite magazine stories ever. And for
Speaker 1: those of you listening, it's written as these vignettes of
Speaker 1: him interacting with kids and interacting with the author, and
Speaker 1: you just leave it wondering how can pur and be
Speaker 1: that good? I mean, it sounds ludicrous, but reading that
Speaker 1: story made me want to be a better person. And
Speaker 1: I think you know, wrote that piece in the late nineties,
Speaker 1: and then six or seven years later when you couldn't
Speaker 1: find that story online because so many magazines had pulled
Speaker 1: all their content from the Internet. I I wrote that
Speaker 1: list partially because I generally wanted readers to rediscover that article. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so we'll definitely link out to it from our
Speaker 1: Facebook page. All right, so we we've talked around Mr Rogers,
Speaker 1: but why don't we dive into his actual story here? Sure,
Speaker 1: but why don't we start by each giving one fact
Speaker 1: we learned about him this week? You always want to
Speaker 1: skip right to the facts, be patient, whatever. I can't
Speaker 1: hope that they're so fun. But here's mine. Did you
Speaker 1: know Mr Rogers was the official celebrity captain of the
Speaker 1: Pittsburgh Penguins. Like the hockey. Yeah, hockey doesn't exactly seem
Speaker 1: like Mr Rogers. Yeah, I don't think it is either,
Speaker 1: but for season, and this was the NHL seventy anniversary,
Speaker 1: every team got to pick a celebrity captain, and most
Speaker 1: of the teams picked like a list celebrities or movie
Speaker 1: stars or whatever. But the Penguins picked him. And there
Speaker 1: was even this rookie trading card they made for Mr Rogers.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I love that. So is he wearing
Speaker 1: a hockey uniform in it? I wish it's just a
Speaker 1: picture of him in his neighborhood. But hearing that made
Speaker 1: me like hockey a little more. Um, why why don't
Speaker 1: you tell me about fact you liked? It's hard to
Speaker 1: surprise you with these facts, but there, I mean, there
Speaker 1: are some good ones, like like, once you realize how
Speaker 1: committed he was to kids in childhood development, it makes
Speaker 1: sense that you know, he taught himself to speak slowly.
Speaker 1: I think he spoke at a rate of a hundred
Speaker 1: and twenty four words per minute, because that's actually the
Speaker 1: optimal speed for kids in the you know, three to
Speaker 1: five age range. That's so crazy that he was not committed.
Speaker 1: But h what's your actual fact? All right? Uh? I
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe that he was a vegetarian. He actually
Speaker 1: owns shares in a vegetarian magazine called vegetarian time. That's
Speaker 1: so strange. You know, my mom actually used to subscribe
Speaker 1: to this nice and a lot in common. Well, he
Speaker 1: stopped eating meat in the seventies because he didn't want
Speaker 1: to eat anything with a mother. And when he was
Speaker 1: profiled in the magazine, he said, I love tofu burgers
Speaker 1: and beats. He has to be the only NHL captain
Speaker 1: in history to ever say those. But let's get back
Speaker 1: to this bio. Why don't you give us a quick
Speaker 1: rundown of how Mr Rogers got into TV? Al right,
Speaker 1: I can do that, so, um, Fred mcpheeley Rogers, How
Speaker 1: great is it that his middle name was mcpheel like
Speaker 1: was born in n in Latrobe, Pennsylvania. He grew up
Speaker 1: to be a puppeteer and an ordained minister, but he
Speaker 1: had a suite and fairly ordinary childhood. He was a
Speaker 1: gifted pianist. He was editor of his high school paper,
Speaker 1: president of student council. Not surprisingly, he did really well
Speaker 1: in school, and when he graduated, he decided to go
Speaker 1: to Dartmouth to study Romance languages, but then he transferred
Speaker 1: out a year later than that to go to Rollins
Speaker 1: College because he wanted to pursue music. Yeah, I've read
Speaker 1: that he composed like two songs from Mr Rogers neighborhood. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right. And I actually thought he was playing the
Speaker 1: piano at the start of the show because I knew
Speaker 1: that he could play the piano, and and because he
Speaker 1: does play on the show when he sings. But but
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the show, it's actually his friend,
Speaker 1: the jazz musician Johnny Costa. You know, I hadn't heard
Speaker 1: of Johnny Costa before this week, and I read that
Speaker 1: he and Fred went way back and that this was
Speaker 1: kind of a steady side gig in rough times for him.
Speaker 1: But being friends. Mr Rogers new costas financial situation and
Speaker 1: the salary he offered him was the exact amount Costa
Speaker 1: needed to put his son through college. It's not kind
Speaker 1: of sweet. But from your reading, is Costa famous? Like
Speaker 1: I didn't really know about him. Well, I mean, I
Speaker 1: think people in jazz circles knew him. You know. Apparently
Speaker 1: Ella Fitzgerald's pianist used to tune into the last five
Speaker 1: minutes of Mr. Rogers every day just to quote here
Speaker 1: what Johnny was up to, because he was that good.
Speaker 1: And I do have to add this because it's a
Speaker 1: very Mr. Rogers fact. So Johnny said, children understand good music.
Speaker 1: I would never play piddling nursery rhyme. That's pretty neat.
Speaker 1: But we'll get into Fred Rogers philosophy and a bit.
Speaker 1: But it was never too dumb down anything. It was
Speaker 1: always about respecting the kids and their feelings and their intelligence.
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I heard Sarah Silverman talking about
Speaker 1: a really difficult topic this week, but as she was
Speaker 1: kind of talking herself up to it, she said, quote,
Speaker 1: if it's mentionable, it's manageable, and like that kind of
Speaker 1: stuck with me and I thought, what a nice quote.
Speaker 1: And then as we're doing this research, I realized that's
Speaker 1: actually a Mr. Rogers phrase and one he used about
Speaker 1: talking about difficult topics on his show. But we should
Speaker 1: get back to the biography. Yeah, alright. So so Fred
Speaker 1: goes to college and he meets his wife Jean there,
Speaker 1: who's also a pianist. But when he's home on break
Speaker 1: from school, he watches TV and he sees people throwing
Speaker 1: pies in each other's faces, and he has this pretty
Speaker 1: visceral reaction to it, as you know puts it. Fred
Speaker 1: was quote the soft sun of overprotective parents, but he
Speaker 1: certainly had conviction. And and right then, while watching this
Speaker 1: mean spirited pie throwing Fred realized that if TV is
Speaker 1: going to have this sweeping effect on our culture, he
Speaker 1: wanted to fight against programmings, base or impulses. He wanted
Speaker 1: to fight for what he called broadcasting of grace through
Speaker 1: the land. I don't know exactly what that means, but
Speaker 1: it sounds kind of so. So when he became this
Speaker 1: ordained menace or which which he did at the same
Speaker 1: time that he went through grad school for child development,
Speaker 1: he decided to use all of those skills on television.
Speaker 1: And that's when he started Mr Rogers in Pittsburgh. Well
Speaker 1: not exactly at that point. I mean, he'd done a
Speaker 1: little puppeteering and TV producing, but his first real gig
Speaker 1: as Mr Rogers was actually in Canada, and that's when
Speaker 1: he first got on camera, and the show was called Mr. Rogers. Weirdly,
Speaker 1: for some reason, it was all one word. I'm not
Speaker 1: sure why, but it only lasted a year or two
Speaker 1: because Fred decided he wanted to raise his kids back
Speaker 1: home and and that's when Mr. Rogers Neighborhood really kicked off.
Speaker 1: So I of course want to talk about his pacing
Speaker 1: of the show and how he used that medium for good,
Speaker 1: but I also wanted to take a second to talk
Speaker 1: about his wardrobe. I know a lot of people may
Speaker 1: know that all of the cardigans on the show were
Speaker 1: knit by his mother. Apparently she used to knit one
Speaker 1: sweater a month for family members, and she'd ask Fred
Speaker 1: what color this year, So wearing that cardigan was this
Speaker 1: little tribute to his mom. But taking off his dress
Speaker 1: shoes at the beginning of the show actually had an
Speaker 1: alternate purpose. Really, I mean, I'm guessing it was just
Speaker 1: to make the kids feel cozy. If you remember, back
Speaker 1: in our education episode we talked about the fact that
Speaker 1: it helps kids concentrate better in school when they take
Speaker 1: their shoes off. Was was that what this had to
Speaker 1: do with? Yeah, that might have been a side benefit,
Speaker 1: but his dress shoes also clunked and squeaked, so walking
Speaker 1: around the studio with quieter and less squeaky shoes is
Speaker 1: why he switched to sneakers. Okay, all right, Well, I
Speaker 1: want to get to the actual TV show along with
Speaker 1: some of the heartwarming stories about him. But before we
Speaker 1: do that, why don't we take a quick break, Welcome
Speaker 1: back to Part time Genius. So we're talking Mr. Rogers
Speaker 1: and how he used his neighborhood to educate kids. So
Speaker 1: let's talk for a second about the pacing of the show. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so Rogers like the show to move slow but deep.
Speaker 1: So he talked kids through things like anxiety, telling kids
Speaker 1: they were too big to slip down the drain, or
Speaker 1: talking about how things like haircuts don't actually hurt, or
Speaker 1: even talking about complex things like divorce. And they're also
Speaker 1: field trips around the neighborhood to nurture curiosity and the
Speaker 1: land to make believe was there, you know, the place
Speaker 1: the trolley would go to with all the poppeting. But um,
Speaker 1: what's really interesting to me is how much he studied
Speaker 1: kids nature and the way they learned. So there was
Speaker 1: this one Yale psychology study that compared the effect of
Speaker 1: Sesame Street on kids versus Mr Rogers neighborhood and the
Speaker 1: results were sort of surprising. So why was that. Well,
Speaker 1: the kids who watched Mr Rogers remembered the storylines better
Speaker 1: and they also had a better tolerance of delay. Essentially,
Speaker 1: they were more patient when they've been promised treats. I mean,
Speaker 1: but you've seen old sesame streets though. I mean, I
Speaker 1: know there's some quick moving graphics from time to time,
Speaker 1: but for the most part those shows seem pretty slow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but Mr Rogers really worked to keep the show as
Speaker 1: seamless as possible, Like he'd rehearsed the show over and
Speaker 1: over because he wanted to be thoughtful about every word
Speaker 1: he used, and he didn't want to make too many cuts,
Speaker 1: partially because that can be jarring to viewers watching so intensely.
Speaker 1: You know, it is funny to contrast this show with
Speaker 1: something like SpongeBob or show like that. I remember our
Speaker 1: friend Ethan Trucks and Mental Flass telling us about this
Speaker 1: study from two thousand eleven that the show was basically
Speaker 1: making kids dumber. You know, there was this uv A
Speaker 1: study that that looked at a group of four year
Speaker 1: olds that were allowed to watch an educational cartoons, some
Speaker 1: that watched SpongeBob or spend their time coloring, and after
Speaker 1: nine or ten minutes, they then tested the kids on
Speaker 1: puzzle solving and following instructions and also a tolerance of delay,
Speaker 1: and the kids who watched SpongeBob did by far the worst.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm guessing that's because all those quick cuts
Speaker 1: made it hard to process for kids, right. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: you know, the way the study was argued against was
Speaker 1: pretty hilarious. There was a spokesman from Nickelodeon that started
Speaker 1: out by saying that the show is intended for older kids,
Speaker 1: but then the argument devolved into something like, quote, watching
Speaker 1: a sponge in pants is just a new and unfamiliar
Speaker 1: concept for kids to wrap their head around. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: not sure that's what caused the lower scores. There's also
Speaker 1: that great story of one coming to the studio to
Speaker 1: put a fish on microphone and feed them in the aquarium,
Speaker 1: like Mr Rogers wanted to hear the sound of fish
Speaker 1: eating and and it was all being taped live, but
Speaker 1: the person kept trying to hurry the fish along because
Speaker 1: they just weren't feeding, so uh, they'd say things like
Speaker 1: chow time or dinner bell and Mr Rogers just kind
Speaker 1: of patiently waited. And afterwards he revealed his philosophy that
Speaker 1: it's okay for kids not to have that immediate gratification,
Speaker 1: that they can learn to wait through watching the program.
Speaker 1: It's just remarkable, really. I mean, the other thing Mr
Speaker 1: Rogers was really thoughtful about with social issues, which he
Speaker 1: kind of saws Christian issues as well. So Michael Long
Speaker 1: of HuffPo wrote up a few things he'd noticed, and
Speaker 1: here are some of the things I didn't realize about
Speaker 1: the show. So ten years before Sally Ride, Mr Rogers
Speaker 1: had his puppet character Lady Elaine Fairchild fly to outer
Speaker 1: space and discover new planets. And then two years before
Speaker 1: Barbara Walters broke through as the first female anchor on
Speaker 1: the Evening News, he actually had Lady Elaine break that
Speaker 1: barrier as well. She's just breaking barriers, and you know,
Speaker 1: and and and obviously those are imaginary characters and and
Speaker 1: I do think they affected kids perceptions of what women
Speaker 1: were capable of. But he also had some real people
Speaker 1: on the show to stress these points as well. Right.
Speaker 1: I read that he created a character Mayor Maggie of
Speaker 1: Southwood played by an African American actor in nineteen seventy five,
Speaker 1: which I guess was almost like fifteen years before an
Speaker 1: African American woman would become the mayor of a big city. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And actually the character he created after Martin Luther King
Speaker 1: Junior's assassination in nineteen sixty eight was also really important.
Speaker 1: So he asked this musician friend of his whose voice
Speaker 1: he loved to play the role of officer. Clements and
Speaker 1: Story Corps did this incredible interview with Francois Clements that
Speaker 1: deserves to be listened to. But here's how he described
Speaker 1: it to NPR. Quote, I grew up in the ghetto.
Speaker 1: I did not have a positive opinion of police officers.
Speaker 1: Policemen were sicking police dogs and water hoses on people,
Speaker 1: and I had a hard time putting myself in that role.
Speaker 1: So I think he really struggled with it because he
Speaker 1: liked Fred but was conflicted about the impact he could have.
Speaker 1: But then in nine nine there was this episode where
Speaker 1: Mr Rogers is resting his feet in a kiddie pool
Speaker 1: on a hot day, and as Clements put it, quote,
Speaker 1: he invited me to come over and rest my feet
Speaker 1: in the water with him. The icon Fred Rogers was
Speaker 1: not only showing my brown skin in the tub with
Speaker 1: his white skin as two friends, but as I was
Speaker 1: getting out of the tub, he was helping me dry
Speaker 1: my feet. I mean, that whole story just kills me. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And the thing is is like, it's so hard to
Speaker 1: pick these stories because there are so many of them.
Speaker 1: I actually saw a quote from Clemens where Mr Rogers
Speaker 1: was ending the show the way he always did. He
Speaker 1: was hanging up his sweater and telling the audience you
Speaker 1: make every day a special day just by being you,
Speaker 1: and I like you just the way you are. And
Speaker 1: on that particular day, Clements thought Rogers was looking at him,
Speaker 1: so he walks up to him and asks, Fred, were
Speaker 1: you talking to me? And this is how NPR tells it. Yes,
Speaker 1: I've been talking to you for years, Rogers said, but
Speaker 1: you heard me today. It was like telling me that
Speaker 1: I'm okay as a human being, Clements says, And and
Speaker 1: that was one of the most meaningful experiences I'd ever had.
Speaker 1: I know. They're honestly a million stories of Mr Rogers
Speaker 1: doing kind thing, from how he'd get up at five
Speaker 1: thirty every morning to answer massive piles of mail, like
Speaker 1: every person who wrote in got a note back. He'd
Speaker 1: also make friends with journalists, which made him a really
Speaker 1: hard interview because he take photos of them and their
Speaker 1: time together and then mail those to him, and and
Speaker 1: he keep up with them to ask how their families were.
Speaker 1: One time, he made a limo driver drive to his
Speaker 1: own house Sir Rogers could meet the driver's family, and
Speaker 1: then they played music and sang late into the night.
Speaker 1: And when a father wrote in because his blind daughter
Speaker 1: had heard Mr Rogers feed the fish once but then
Speaker 1: was worried that they had died, Mr Rogers changed his
Speaker 1: daily narration to include a bit where he said the
Speaker 1: fish were fed and doing well. And there's just so
Speaker 1: many heartwarming stories of him telling kids to be brave
Speaker 1: and difficult situations. Yeah, yeah, there's too too many great stories.
Speaker 1: And by all accounts, he was very much the same
Speaker 1: person on an off screen. But we should talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about how he saved PBS and also the VCR.
Speaker 1: So what why don't we do that? After the brink?
Speaker 1: Okay manga. So earlier we were talking about this wonderful
Speaker 1: profile of Mr Rogers and Esquire called can you Say Hero?
Speaker 1: And we were lucky enough to get the author of
Speaker 1: that profile on the line, Tom's you know, welcome to
Speaker 1: part time Genius. Thanks for having me so, Tom, it's
Speaker 1: been I think nearly twenty years since your profile, and
Speaker 1: I think at the time Mr Rogers must have been famous,
Speaker 1: but not top of mind for most people. Why did
Speaker 1: you choose Mr Rogers as a subject? Yeah, I didn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't actually cheer them. It was it was definitely
Speaker 1: one of those profiles that was chosen for me. Um.
Speaker 1: I mean there are two reasons for it. Number One,
Speaker 1: we were doing a story or or an issue devoted
Speaker 1: two American heroes, and you know, one of the editors
Speaker 1: very strongly advocated that that Mr Rogers should be accounted
Speaker 1: on that list. But the second thing that that had
Speaker 1: happened was I had just gone through a bunch of stuff,
Speaker 1: UM regarding Kevin Spacey a year before. I had written
Speaker 1: the story, the cover line for which was Kevin Spacey
Speaker 1: had the secret that sort of danced around outing him
Speaker 1: and it probably did more than dance around so um,
Speaker 1: and that at the time seemed incredibly um transgressive and wrong.
Speaker 1: And you know, I was attacked from all sides, and
Speaker 1: Kevin himself UM called for me to be blacklisted for
Speaker 1: further celebrity profiles, and I was just sort of finishing
Speaker 1: up all that. The editor who advocated Mr Rogers on
Speaker 1: the cover of the Hero's issue advocated that I'd be
Speaker 1: the writers just like you know, not only would it
Speaker 1: be sort of counterintuitive to have him on the cover,
Speaker 1: it would be her extra counter recruited to have a
Speaker 1: notorious comes you know that piece, and so what was
Speaker 1: he interested in having a story on him? Um? You know,
Speaker 1: it's just that it was just a funny thing. I
Speaker 1: you know, he had a lot of protection at the time,
Speaker 1: but I didn't know any of that. I know, contacted
Speaker 1: his UM people, and his people said, okay, well you
Speaker 1: can you can you know, visit him um in New
Speaker 1: York when he's in New York. I didn't know at
Speaker 1: this time that his people were trying very hard to
Speaker 1: dissuade him from talking to me. Don't you know who
Speaker 1: this guy is? Don't you know what he did? And
Speaker 1: it had nothing to do with you know, Fred being
Speaker 1: gay or whatever. That was never part of the equation.
Speaker 1: But it had to do with just me being sort
Speaker 1: of a bad guy, a notorious guy. And that really
Speaker 1: set up the whole dynamic for the story because I
Speaker 1: didn't I didn't know that that was going on. But
Speaker 1: I went and saw him in his apartment in New
Speaker 1: York City, and you know, he he you know, I
Speaker 1: called him up and said, you know, can I come over?
Speaker 1: And he was like, well, Tom, you know, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: in my robe and slippers, I'm taking a nap, you
Speaker 1: can come over, you know, and and you know, and
Speaker 1: I went there and I knocked on the door, and
Speaker 1: you know, by god, he was in slippers and in
Speaker 1: a robe and U and he was in this apartment.
Speaker 1: And just right from the very very start, I started
Speaker 1: asking him questions which he never answered. He did not.
Speaker 1: I mean I thought for it many times. Um, he
Speaker 1: never answered a single one of my questions. He always
Speaker 1: reflected by asking any question about myself, you know, um,
Speaker 1: you know, and and you know part of that is
Speaker 1: in the story, you know, he he asked me. I mean,
Speaker 1: just like I was started asking him about his past.
Speaker 1: And I was like, wow, you know, I was. I
Speaker 1: had a lot of friends back there. I didn't have
Speaker 1: a lot of friends, but I had a lot of
Speaker 1: you know, imaginary friends like stuffed animals and things. I
Speaker 1: bet you had a close friends like that. Two didn't
Speaker 1: you come like? Yes? Then was old Rabbit? Oh, I
Speaker 1: bet you loved old Rabbit very much. And you know,
Speaker 1: and it was it was just, you know, that dynamic
Speaker 1: from the very beginning. And you know, as a journalist,
Speaker 1: I had to decide whether to accept that or not.
Speaker 1: And I did, and I think I did because they
Speaker 1: needed to. I think I was really I was really
Speaker 1: at a tough place in my career. I had just
Speaker 1: gone to Esquire from g Q, and you know, GQ
Speaker 1: was was pretty much a you know, a UM. It
Speaker 1: was like, you know, NonStop um, you know, glory really
Speaker 1: and it was it was just you know, I did
Speaker 1: you know, every story was was kind of greeted, you know,
Speaker 1: and welcomed um, you know, with enthusiasm. And then I
Speaker 1: went to Esquire. My first story was on Kevin Space
Speaker 1: and people just hated it and for a while kind
Speaker 1: of like hated me, and and then said came in
Speaker 1: and really really, um, I think saw that. I think
Speaker 1: he saw that. I think that he saw that I
Speaker 1: needed someone to trust me, and he decided to and
Speaker 1: I decided to trust him. And that was the dynamic
Speaker 1: of the whole story. Wow, that's really interesting, Well, Tom,
Speaker 1: One of the things we haven't seen written about much
Speaker 1: is is his relationship with his sons. Do you happen
Speaker 1: to know much about him as a parent, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't, I really don't. You know. I met his
Speaker 1: wife Joanne many times and I'm still in touch with her,
Speaker 1: but I don't know very much about his relationship with
Speaker 1: his son. Well, you know, I've known he was a minister,
Speaker 1: but he was always so quiet about his faith on
Speaker 1: the show. And I'm curious, why do you think he
Speaker 1: asked you to pray with him during your reporting, because
Speaker 1: I think he was quiet about his faith on the show.
Speaker 1: But I think he lived his face, you know, every day.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know for a fact that he woke up,
Speaker 1: um every morning at five o'clock in order to pray
Speaker 1: for people and to write and to think and to read.
Speaker 1: But from five to seven, with his time by himself
Speaker 1: and UM, part of that was prayer for people. And I,
Speaker 1: you know, I became one of the people he prayed for. UM.
Speaker 1: You know, from the very beginning, he was ministering to me.
Speaker 1: He was not just like a typical profile subject in
Speaker 1: any way at all. He was ministering to me and
Speaker 1: I was okay with it, and in fact I was,
Speaker 1: you know, I needed it, And so that was that
Speaker 1: was really what happened. So but I think that Fred
Speaker 1: was one of those guys. It was, you know, he
Speaker 1: was very private. He was not a person who you know,
Speaker 1: talked about his personal life at all, I mean like zero.
Speaker 1: And but I think that when you got past a
Speaker 1: certain point. I think his life faith was a huge
Speaker 1: component of that private life. So Tom, I was curious,
Speaker 1: what was your relationship like with him after the interview
Speaker 1: and and uh, did you stay friends? Yeah? We did.
Speaker 1: We stayed We stayed friends until he died. And um,
Speaker 1: even though I did not know how sick he was. UM,
Speaker 1: I was not one of the people who um was
Speaker 1: led into that level. But I mean, you know, after
Speaker 1: UM the story came out, we stayed friends. I mean
Speaker 1: I have I don't know, like I don't know how
Speaker 1: many emails I have from friends that he set me
Speaker 1: between in two thousand and three when he died, but
Speaker 1: I mean at least five hundred. And they were just
Speaker 1: they were mostly short. They were mostly there's like, you know,
Speaker 1: praying for Utah and they were praying praying for and
Speaker 1: I mentioned, you know, a family relation who was having
Speaker 1: trouble and she was young, and I know that he
Speaker 1: prayed for her. I mean I know that for I
Speaker 1: know that for a fact, and so so I would
Speaker 1: like call him every once in a while, like one
Speaker 1: I would you know. It was it was just funny.
Speaker 1: I was the other day in Atlanta. I came around
Speaker 1: US exit. That reminded me of Fred because I remember
Speaker 1: the day when I came around that exit and there
Speaker 1: was a snapping turtle crossing it to get to some
Speaker 1: sort of you know, vistigial pond that had been you know,
Speaker 1: developed around and I stopped my car and you know,
Speaker 1: I picked up the snapping turtle and all these people
Speaker 1: all at once came out and helped me. And you know,
Speaker 1: I told I told Fred about it. I called him
Speaker 1: up and told him about it, and he was like,
Speaker 1: isn't that like you you know, like always, you know,
Speaker 1: he always had he always had a kind word to say.
Speaker 1: And the last time I spoke to Fred, Um was
Speaker 1: um on Christmas Eve, Christmas Day. She's down in two
Speaker 1: and on Christmas Eve there has been a a battle,
Speaker 1: uh in my family and it was brought between um,
Speaker 1: my wife and I. But my wife's got involved in
Speaker 1: a practice between me and some you know, some others.
Speaker 1: It was, you know, it was just a typical kind
Speaker 1: of family form. But my wife was really upset that
Speaker 1: night and she couldn't sleep and she was so she
Speaker 1: was so mad about how she had been treated, and
Speaker 1: the thing that got her to sleepers that she thought
Speaker 1: to herself like, what would Fred Rogers do? How would
Speaker 1: Fred Rodgers react to this? That's I mean, that's how
Speaker 1: sort of ingrained um he was to you know, our
Speaker 1: our way of thinking in our family life. And you
Speaker 1: know I called him Um Christmas morning. I called him
Speaker 1: that next day and told him that, and he, you know,
Speaker 1: he gave me that same that same answer. You know
Speaker 1: how how like Tom to call me and tell me that?
Speaker 1: And I did not know that he was dying a
Speaker 1: stomach cancer. He already was. He was, you know, he
Speaker 1: was diagnosed and was sick. He died two months two
Speaker 1: months later, and said your weary two thousand and three.
Speaker 1: And I know, I remember very well how he found
Speaker 1: out that he died. And I went down to my computer,
Speaker 1: looped over my laptop and there was his picture, and
Speaker 1: you know, I just I knew, I knew right away
Speaker 1: with that picture Ned, and you know it was I
Speaker 1: had to give a speech that day here in Atlanta,
Speaker 1: and I wound up UM asking everybody in the audience
Speaker 1: to maintain one minute of silence in UM in tribute
Speaker 1: to Fred. Not something to remember Fred, but because that's
Speaker 1: what he did. That's how that's how he you know,
Speaker 1: opened his speeches, he would count off that minute of
Speaker 1: silence and have people think about someone they loved. We
Speaker 1: had the audience to think about people that they loved,
Speaker 1: and so I did that that day. It was pretty emotional. Wow,
Speaker 1: well it's it's such a great story and I can't
Speaker 1: imagine that story for you having come at a at
Speaker 1: a better time and what a life changing moment. I
Speaker 1: think it's been so remarkable for us as we've been
Speaker 1: preparing to do the episode this week, is just how
Speaker 1: many people there are in the world that feel similarly.
Speaker 1: That we're so positively affected by him and in so
Speaker 1: many ways. But thank you for writing this profile on him.
Speaker 1: I know, again it's been a couple of decades, but
Speaker 1: Mango and I have talked about this one so many
Speaker 1: times over the years. It definitely changed my life and
Speaker 1: you know, definitely changed how I operated. Thank you so much, Tom,
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Welcome back to our time, genius.
Speaker 1: So before the break, I mentioned that we talked quickly
Speaker 1: about Mr Rogers impact on culture and specifically PBS and
Speaker 1: the VCR, and in both instances, Mr Rogers went to Washington.
Speaker 1: It was it was almost out of a Capra film.
Speaker 1: And actually you can see these things going around. You
Speaker 1: still still see them shared all the time on social media.
Speaker 1: Him going in front of Congress, but when PBSS budget
Speaker 1: was going to be cut, he went and spoke passionately
Speaker 1: about how TV can help kids with emotions, and instead
Speaker 1: of a budget cut, the funding jumped from nine to
Speaker 1: twenty two million dollars. That incredible. And when the government
Speaker 1: was debating whether VCR should be allowed in homes because
Speaker 1: recording videos from TV might work against copyright issues, and
Speaker 1: keep mind this was a long time ago, but it
Speaker 1: was actually a pretty heated issue, Rogers convinced them that
Speaker 1: for working families, being able to tape a show and
Speaker 1: then watch it together later was really important, and his
Speaker 1: testimony swayed that decision as well. I mean, he was
Speaker 1: so gentle but so convincing. Burger King rend this commercial
Speaker 1: a while back called Mr Rodney, which was kind of
Speaker 1: a sweet parody. But then they got a call from
Speaker 1: Mr Rogers, who had received letters from kids and parents
Speaker 1: wondering why he was now pushing Burgers. Would be kind
Speaker 1: of a weird fit for a vegetarian, so I guess
Speaker 1: that's why they just decided to transition to that giant,
Speaker 1: weird looking king. That isn't going to parody anything. I
Speaker 1: don't think so. But Mr Rogers had never done any commercials,
Speaker 1: so you know, he hadn't even done those PBS auctions
Speaker 1: that you see during the fundraising drive. So he gently
Speaker 1: asked them to remove the hundred fifty spot because he
Speaker 1: didn't want any of his kids confused, and Burger King
Speaker 1: actually pulled it like the commercial only aired for one week.
Speaker 1: His ability to just call people up and relate to
Speaker 1: them as humans was extraordinary, and even Burger King agreed.
Speaker 1: This is what their spokesperson said, quote it just goes
Speaker 1: to show that everybody will be good if you're spoken
Speaker 1: to in a nice way. Yeah. I mean, he really
Speaker 1: believed in these peaceful resolutions, and even in smaller ways,
Speaker 1: like when gorba Chov visited the US during the tail
Speaker 1: end of the Cold War, he had a guest on
Speaker 1: from a Russian children's program with a translator. He wanted
Speaker 1: to show kids how people can communicate from different parts
Speaker 1: of the world and and how quote, we all want
Speaker 1: friendships and we all want to be cared for. And
Speaker 1: some months later he went to Russia and returned the
Speaker 1: favor with an appearance on Russian TV. Yeah, he has
Speaker 1: this quote, I love uh. Peace means far more than
Speaker 1: just the opposite of war. And there's so many more
Speaker 1: stories to tell. But maybe that's a nice place to
Speaker 1: end this for now. Well, I mean, we can end
Speaker 1: this part of the show, but there's still one more
Speaker 1: part of the show we have to get to, and
Speaker 1: that's the fact. Do you know Mr Rogers was color blind?
Speaker 1: I didn't like literally color blind. Though his family also
Speaker 1: took in foster children of all races. All right, well
Speaker 1: here's one you should love. So Mr Rogers was a napper.
Speaker 1: He got up at five thirty every morning to answer
Speaker 1: mail from from viewers, and then he went swimming, and
Speaker 1: every afternoon he'd tried to get in and app So
Speaker 1: I need to figure out how to get more naps
Speaker 1: into my day. But did you know Mr Rogers created
Speaker 1: his own ice cream flavor for a local dairy. It
Speaker 1: was called Blueberry Go Round and it had a blueberry
Speaker 1: ripple with macaroon chunks in it. His grandmom used to
Speaker 1: make macaroon's for him as a child, apparently, you know,
Speaker 1: And sometimes people forget that he was a loving husband
Speaker 1: and father. So once while playing piano at an event,
Speaker 1: his wife walked in the door, and he joyously stopped
Speaker 1: playing and ran to greet and embrace her. The photos
Speaker 1: he took of journalists and experiences were so he could
Speaker 1: share his day with her, and after he passed, she
Speaker 1: had a really hard time not starting her sentences with
Speaker 1: we oh, that's sad. Well. This is my absolutely favorite
Speaker 1: fact about him, and what I wrote in Mental Flaws
Speaker 1: years ago quote. As an ordained Presbyterian minister and a
Speaker 1: man of tremendous faith, Mr Rogers preached tolerance first. Whenever
Speaker 1: he was asked to castigate non Christians or gays for
Speaker 1: their different beliefs, he would instead face them and say,
Speaker 1: with sincerity, God loves you just the way you are.
Speaker 1: I love that. And you know, on this Thanksgiving, what
Speaker 1: do you say instead of crowning a winner, Let's forget
Speaker 1: about the trophy today. And in this segment the way
Speaker 1: Mr Rogers would end some of his speeches, all right,
Speaker 1: here goes. All of us have special ones who have
Speaker 1: loved us into being. Would you just take along with
Speaker 1: us ten seconds to think of the people who have
Speaker 1: helped you become who you are? Ten seconds of silence.
Speaker 1: We'll watch the time. Thank you for listening to Part
Speaker 1: Time Genius, and thank you for being exactly who you are.
Speaker 1: Thanks again for listening. Part Time Genius is a production
Speaker 1: of how stuff works and wouldn't be possible without several
Speaker 1: brilliant people who do the important things we couldn't even
Speaker 1: begin to understand. Chris and McNeil is the editing thing.
Speaker 1: Noel Brown made the theme song and does the MIXI
Speaker 1: mixy sound thing. Jerry Rowland does the exact producer thing.
Speaker 1: Gay Bluesier is our lead researcher, with support from the
Speaker 1: Research Army including Austin Thompson, Nolan Brown and Lucas Adams
Speaker 1: and Eves. Jeff Cook gets the show to your ears.
Speaker 1: Good job, Eves. If you like what you heard, we
Speaker 1: hope you'll subscribe, and if you really really like what
Speaker 1: you've heard, maybe you could leave a good review for us.
Speaker 1: Do we do we forget Jason? Jason who