1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: You're listening to Disinformed, a mini series from There Are 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet. I'm Bridget Todd. The two 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: Democratic candidates actually outperformed Joe Biden among key Democratic constituencies, 4 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: among African Americans, among young people. CBS News projects that 5 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: both Democrats have won those two seats. Really an extraordinary 6 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: development given to not only just about what's changed in 7 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: the state of Georgia, once a ruby red state. The 8 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: morning of January six, I woke up beaming. There had 9 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: been a historic win and the Georgia's Senate runoff election, 10 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: shifting the power of the Senate, and people were crediting 11 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 1: black women like Stacy Abrams for the win. I felt 12 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: like I was truly walking in the power of black 13 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: women and that that power was impossible for anyone to ignore. Y'all, 14 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: we didn't even get a day. Hours later, that feeling 15 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: of power or from the Georgia runoffs was replaced with 16 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: feelings of fear and powerlessness. As I watched violent insurrectionists 17 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: storm the capital. Our moment of joy overshadowed, and the 18 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: worst part, we likely wouldn't even be here if people 19 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 1: with power had just listened to black women. Black women 20 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: have been warning about the spread of disinformation For years. 21 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: It was black women like Shafika Hudson who sounded the 22 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: alarm about coordinated harassment campaigns meant to spread chaos, distortions, 23 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: and confusion on social media. This was years before a 24 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: Senate inquiry would confirm what these women had said all along, 25 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: that bad actors were using social media to spread disinformation 26 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: in the election. The report also confirmed that Black communities 27 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: were their biggest targets. We already know that communities of 28 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: color are disproportionately impacted by disinformation, but also much of 29 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: the foundational work to combat it has been driven by 30 00:01:56,360 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: Black women researchers, organizers, and users. Women like Sharne Mitchell 31 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: have been talking about the ways they saw disinformation target 32 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: our communities since the very beginning. In Sharine created Digital Sisters, 33 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: the first organization dedicated to bringing women and girls of 34 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: color online, and later she founded Stop Online Violence against Women, 35 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: a project that addresses laws and policies to provide protections 36 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: for women online. In January, Sharine authored of report outlining 37 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: the past and present of disinformation campaigns used during election cycles, 38 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: starting from leading up to today. Black women aren't often 39 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 1: cited as experts on disinformation and while it impacts our 40 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 1: communities the most, our stories about it are not often centered. 41 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: Sharne's pretty pissed about this and now on the heels 42 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 1: of the disinformation field riots at the Capitol and as 43 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: more and more institutions and outlets start to see disinformation 44 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,399 Speaker 1: as a real problem, she wonders what took you so long? 45 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: Sharine's life work has been carving out space for women 46 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: of color and black women online and it all started 47 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: in a likely place, an arcade. So you have been 48 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: involved with the internet almost for as long as the 49 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: internet has been a thing. How did you get started online? 50 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: Like Lurrior early experiences on the internet, Like I started 51 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: clothing at ten years old in Harlem in the projects. 52 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: But one of the other things I used to do 53 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: after school every day was to go down the other 54 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: side of the street heading back home, but across the 55 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: street to the arcade room. That's when I fell in 56 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: love with video games, which is we're talking, you know, 57 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: the stand up machines, the early days, pac Man Centerpede, 58 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: Like this is where my age shows up. We're talking 59 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: um Space Invaders, Like we're talking some of the original games. 60 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: I would go and play I didn't realize at the 61 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: time I was the only girl. Uh. The store owner 62 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: didn't want me there because I would play the entire 63 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: time on the single corner, so the store only couldn't 64 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: make any money, and the boys were mad that I 65 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: would beat them, and they didn't want to play the 66 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: games either if I was present. And so the truth is, 67 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: my mom thought that I was going there every day 68 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: in in in hindsight, like we had debates about this 69 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: when I got older. In hindsight, as we were fighting 70 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: about me going there every day, she thought I was 71 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: going because there was some boy there are liked. When 72 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: all I was doing is going to the beat boys 73 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: at the game. Um that um that, you know, there 74 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: was something else going on. So and also she was 75 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: you know Harlem Bronx, you know the life of a 76 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: black girl in spaces like that. When she was like, 77 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: as your mother, I'm just gonna bring you home if 78 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: I can, and she did. So. She was like, if 79 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: you really really really do love these games, then I'm 80 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: gonna buy you know, we're we're poor, but she was like, 81 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna buy you know, the Atari, which is what 82 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 1: she did, and you get to play these games at home. 83 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: And so I'm thinking I get to go play by 84 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: myself with no interference. Heck, yeah, I'm gonna do that. Like, 85 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 1: I don't get the boys acting all stupid, I don't 86 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 1: get the story. Like in my in my view of that, 87 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 1: I was like, absolutely my mom gonna paid now. Mind you, 88 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: she spent a lot of money on that, So I 89 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 1: didn't even understand the cost of that at that at 90 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 1: that particular time, that led me from just the gaming 91 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: to what she when she realized that I actually did 92 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 1: love it, to um to the to the home computer 93 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: that she bought me, and then I started coding. So 94 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 1: it went from that trajectory to there all by myself. 95 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: By the way, my mom didn't understand any of it. 96 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: She just knew this something I love, so she just 97 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 1: bought it. Is is that why you feel compelled in 98 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: your professional life now as an adult to carve out 99 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: these spaces for women of color and black women online 100 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: that we can talk about our experiences on the internet. 101 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: That absolutely, It's like no one even understand what my 102 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: experience was in that moment, and everyone who had were 103 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: projecting upon me were projecting a whole bunch of different 104 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: things than what I was dealing with it was like, 105 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: I just love to play the video game. I just 106 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: love the code, like the concepts of everything else in between. 107 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: By the way, also people telling me, even at ten, 108 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: I can't code because I'm black from Harlem and a girl. 109 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: I'm going quick click click click click, Uh, machine telling 110 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: me I could code. I'm good. Yeah, you're like, you're 111 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: telling me I can, but this machine told me I 112 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: know how to do it. So I don't know. I 113 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: don't know what you're talking about. So the concept of 114 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: someone saying to me or anyone else who looks like me, 115 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: that somehow you can't code just because of what you 116 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: look like, I was like, where does that come from? 117 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 1: I don't know that world? And so yes, So it 118 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 1: fast forwards me into a brother context of why I 119 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: looked at forming Digital Sisters because I wanted to form 120 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 1: Digital Sisters for the girls who weren't me, the girls 121 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 1: who didn't who we sent the message and believe the 122 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: message that they couldn't code, believe that that there's some 123 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: part of their identity made it impossible to for them 124 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: to even know how or the navigate that space. So 125 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 1: I always tell people after forming Digital Sisters, one of 126 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: the things that was very clear to me was the 127 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 1: easiest part of my job was what teaching girls to code. 128 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: The rest of my job was de on with parents 129 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 1: who was stopping her kids from clothings, parents who was 130 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: stopping their kids from getting online, the system in schools 131 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: that we're doing the same thing, the system in general 132 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: where we now move into this text space that we're 133 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: in of dystopia that basically said, we have the right 134 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: to tell you cannot be in the space, so you 135 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: do not belong in the space, and you have no 136 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: reason to even think that you have ownership in this space. 137 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: Vine wanted to reimagine the Internet as a space where 138 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: women and girls of color could feel supported, heard and protected, 139 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: But she also couldn't shake the idea that maybe these 140 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: spaces weren't so safe for these women and girls, and 141 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: that assumed lack of safety was a big problem in 142 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: those moments. There were moments where I had to have 143 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: conversations with parents, especially moms, saying, your daughter will be 144 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: safe if I teach her how to code. Your daughter 145 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: will be safe if she goes online, because that was 146 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why they unpugged their daughters. But 147 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: they had their sons go run them UK online in 148 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: any form right. It was the fear factor, harms on 149 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: their daughters. In some ways, there's a part of me 150 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: that said, here we are in And I was lying 151 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: to those moms didn't know I was lying because it 152 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: wasn't just them being worried about predators, because that really 153 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: wasn't the thing they had to worry the most about. 154 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: They had to worry about their surroundings. More than that. 155 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: It was about the industry of which that would be built, 156 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: that would be built to target them and and and 157 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: and target them in a way that no one would 158 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 1: show up to protect them in any in any fashion. 159 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: So when I formed stop on Violence against Women, I 160 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 1: specifically formed it because I wanted to have a sense 161 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 1: of what women of color saw and what their experience 162 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 1: was online. But it was that moment that I started 163 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: to look at the work around, looking at what online 164 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: violence and and all our harassment was like, specifically to 165 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: women of color, because it was different than white women. 166 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: It was different than men in general, but also um 167 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: white men, and specifically, disinformation, especially when it's weaponized against 168 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 1: women and people of color, doesn't just stay online. It 169 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,839 Speaker 1: could have real world consequences like voter suppression or the 170 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: kind of violence we saw the Capital, and this has 171 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: been a focus of Sharman's work. So how have you 172 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 1: seen disinformation play out, especially as it pertains to women 173 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: of color online? Yes, absolutely, you and I know about 174 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 1: women like Shafika Hussand and Anissa Crockett who basically helped 175 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: to identify you know, you know, uh fake accounts pretending 176 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: to be black women. It's looking at the way in 177 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: which people of color, black people specifically are trying to 178 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: change their their environment, trying to stop the harassment, trying 179 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: to stop being killed by the state, trying to stop 180 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,479 Speaker 1: all these things are happening to them in their communities, 181 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: and they're seen as the problem of which they should 182 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: not be protected, but also of which the any violence 183 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: upon them is acceptable, whether it's digital violence or uh 184 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: in real in real life violence, which we know now 185 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: has translated to organizing events like what happened in Kenosha. Right, 186 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: we have seen this trajectory. But I'm saying is I 187 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 1: have witnessed it and I've collected data on that trajectory. 188 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: I'm saying I not only know that this was going 189 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: to happen where we are in is that I have 190 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: been trying to tell us and prepare us for it 191 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: before we got here. My report in the beginning of 192 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: January that really defined what digital wal suppression was was 193 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: to define what we had already collected data on targeting 194 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: black voters, then which which we define campaigns to do so, 195 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: of which to give strategies to stop it. And nothing 196 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: has been done. We have still not been protected. We 197 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:57,439 Speaker 1: have systems in place, not only from from tech companies, 198 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: but even our government systems that are accept seeing harms 199 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 1: against us. If people with power had listened to women 200 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: lecturing where things have gone differently, what our social media 201 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: platforms been is vulnerable for bad actors to exploit like 202 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: they did in the election. Let's take a quick break 203 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:31,079 Speaker 1: and are back. I think what you just really crystallized 204 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: for me is and I hate to keep relying on 205 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: this and keep going back to this, but you know, 206 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: if we had listened, like so much in our country 207 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 1: might have gone differently, If we had just listened to 208 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: black women who have been talking about this, collecting data 209 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: about this, studying this, raising the alarm about this for 210 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: so long, and here it is. It's it kind of 211 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: seems like people get, people get on have got have 212 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: only just now started to get on board, and it's 213 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: so late it might be too late. I feel strongly 214 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: about that. I feel I feel extremely strongly about that. 215 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I have a pen. I've left 216 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: it up there. I can't remember when I wrote that one. 217 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: I think it was I don't even remember the date 218 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: when I wrote that pen to basically say, I'm going 219 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: to put this moment up here on Twitter, to basically say, 220 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,079 Speaker 1: if we listened to black women, the hacking of twenty 221 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: sixteen would have never happened. And I haven't updated as 222 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: much recently because so much has happened. But when I 223 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: put that up there, it was to stay up there 224 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: forever until people got it. And the sad part is 225 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: from that moment to present, people are coming to me 226 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: now going sharene I get it. And my thing is, 227 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: why didn't you hear me before? Why do you get 228 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: it now? And you know, why do people get it now? 229 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 1: Bridget like, seriously, you know why they get it now? 230 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,959 Speaker 1: Why do you think because it's happening to them, it's 231 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: happening to their families, it's happening in there in front 232 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: of their eyes in the way that they can't look away. 233 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,079 Speaker 1: But when we were speaking, they could pretend, Oh, it's 234 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:01,679 Speaker 1: just us being angry. They could pretend that was just 235 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: us sort of being sort of out of sync with 236 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 1: the rest of the world, not that we were seeing 237 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: what we were knowing going going to happen down the road, 238 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: like that we were predicting it, that we were trying 239 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: to collect the data and present it at which I've done. 240 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 1: We our first report was the our first report was 241 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: the first report to even say the Russia target the 242 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: African Americans overwhelmingly over any other group. Then there's a 243 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 1: report that comes from Oxford report that comes from the 244 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: Senate Intelligence Committee. But my report somehow gets missing in 245 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: the rest of the dialogue, right because they needed they 246 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: needed all these other quote unquote institutions to validate what 247 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: I said. And this has happened, and this happens over 248 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,319 Speaker 1: and over again. There are multiple institutions even in this moment, 249 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: coming up with versions of my report for them to 250 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: validate that I was correct. And other was saying, let 251 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: me credit Sharene and elevate what she's been doing so 252 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: we can have more reports from her, because she knew 253 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 1: what she was looking at. And continue that work. Right, 254 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: That's something that I really I see a lot and 255 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: putting together this podcast about disinformation, how rare it is, 256 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: how rare it is to find black women cited as 257 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: experts on disinformation when we have been the ones who 258 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: have been raising the alarm, studying it, writing, writing the reports, 259 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: trying to legitimize it as an issue for so long. 260 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: Why do you think that is? I mean, like there's 261 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: a hashtag like site black women, right, It's it's really 262 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: very problematic in my opinion in many ways is that, um, 263 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: there's there's a there's a problem with people being able 264 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: to credit black women for the work that they've done. 265 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: I don't know why that is in in its full entirety, 266 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: I think that there is some resistance. I think there's 267 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: some social commentary that which I feel about the way 268 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: in which I grew up, right, which is people still 269 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: telling me that there's no way I can code at 270 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: ten coming from Harlem, Like there was something about the 271 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: body that I have in the existence that the place 272 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: I was born in that says that anything I say 273 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: or do is not valid in comparison to anyone else. 274 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: And so in other words, to validate me somebody else 275 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: has to do it instead of me. That someone else 276 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: actually has to be able to say even my own 277 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: identity is valid externally. And we've we've seen this bridget 278 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: with sixteen nineteen. We've seen this with other aspects of 279 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: us tell our narrative. Catherine Johnson existed, and people still 280 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: pretending that Catherine Johnson is not the reason that the 281 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: that the white man made it to the moon, right, 282 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 1: that that that the concept that we are not a 283 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: part of this historical through on as to why America 284 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: is what it is and all the pieces that we 285 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: were a part of. Instead, what they do is remove 286 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: us out of those pieces. So when I say, um, 287 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: why they don't add us to some of these aspects 288 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: to cite us is to make sure that we're removed 289 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: from the historical narrative. You don't cite me, you don't 290 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: know I exist. What do you think? How do you 291 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: think things might have been different if people had meaningfully 292 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: listened to and centered the black women like yourself, like 293 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: Shafika Hudson when you all try to raise the alarm 294 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: about this, if they had listened to us, even in 295 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: what we're up against now, would have been totally different 296 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: and we've been totally prepared and we've been able to 297 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: knock out most, if not the majority, of the disinformation 298 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: that we're faced with. And that tells me that we 299 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: were never ever wanting to be prepared for reality. We 300 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: wanted to live in a historical framework. Taken us out 301 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: of the timeline means that you get to have some 302 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: version of the world that you feel comfortable with, and 303 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: that you're saying to us that that version of the 304 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: world does not include this. Part of this is just 305 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: me being annoyed on social media, but I can't tell 306 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: you how many times I have seen this, like breaking news, 307 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: new report, you know, bad actors are impersonating black people 308 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 1: on social media to try to influence the election, and 309 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: it's so difficult for me to not reply saying, yeah, 310 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: you could have just listened to the any number of 311 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 1: black women who have been saying this since day one. 312 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: It's so it's so difficult to see people to make 313 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: this discovery over and over and over again. It's a 314 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: bit like being in that movie Groundhog Day, where we 315 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: people black women have been saying this forever, forever, and 316 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: it's sounds a miracle party, a miracle someone discovered it 317 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: a miracle. Someone found this this, these these accounts and 318 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: doing these various things in these various ways, and it's 319 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: like you're just seeing one piece of the stuff that 320 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 1: we've been following since I don't know it is. It's amazing. 321 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: And what's more amazing, it's the way that those people 322 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: get elevated as if they actually did discover it. No 323 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: citations to any of us, no, none of that. And 324 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: that's and then and then when we say something about it, 325 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: we're the bad guys because somehow you just learning about 326 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: it means that, um, it's important. But us who've been 327 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: doing it for years, it's like, oh, we know you 328 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: were doing it, but that was cute. We're doing it 329 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: in this as if we were um, as if we 330 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: were as if it was like a hobby. This is 331 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: that was a cute little hobby that you did know. 332 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: I have data. I can collect data. I've been collecting data. 333 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,640 Speaker 1: We've been doing synopsis. This is not a cute thing 334 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: I have. I have experience in most of this work anyway. 335 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: I eat also my technological background. But to say that 336 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: somehow all my experience and skill sets is not as 337 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: important as some reporter who decided that their beat was 338 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: this info. Yeah. I mean the more I hear from you, 339 00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: the more this sounds like an intentional racing of our 340 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: labor and our contributions at our work. I'm sorry to 341 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: tell you, yes, and it's not new. I let me 342 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: let me also explain to you, like the basis of this, 343 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: Like one of the things that that happens in the 344 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: tech industry is around use cases when you're trying to 345 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 1: build tech, and so multiple aspects of this. You have 346 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: to you have to come up with what you think 347 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: the technology can be, but also what the problem is 348 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: that you think the technology can solve. And so when 349 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 1: whenever I look at use cases, I look at use 350 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 1: cases from my perspective, particularly around my community, issues that 351 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: impact my community, and I think about that from a 352 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: perspective that could help other communities. I do not think 353 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: about technology building from the concept of the people who 354 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: are the most privileged to help them. I think about 355 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: it from centering the most marginalized and building something that 356 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: would help them and save them or protect them, and 357 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: then elevate that to everybody else. We operate in a 358 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: very different system, not just the American system in general, 359 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: but also a technological system. We operate from the top 360 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: tier level, people who are the most privileged, coming up 361 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: with something that works for them, and then trying to 362 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,239 Speaker 1: nudge everybody else below to use it, even at their 363 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: own detriment. And so when you come up with use cases, 364 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: you have to think about, like what are the things 365 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,199 Speaker 1: you're trying to solve, but what one of the other 366 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,239 Speaker 1: pieces of use cases that you think about. You think 367 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: about people's narrative. When you look at someone's narrative and 368 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: you think about how you solve a problem based on 369 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: people's narrative, you have to think about them from a 370 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 1: very diverse perspective in many many ways. I've been in 371 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 1: multiple aspects of these of these events, white papers and 372 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,959 Speaker 1: the like where I have come up with a technology 373 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: that will eventually people want, but the narrative they don't 374 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: want because the narrative is centered on a woman of color. 375 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: And when I think about that, the eraser is they 376 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: will come out of that coming up with some technological solution, 377 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 1: but writing out and wiping out the narrative were originated from, 378 00:20:54,960 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: which is women of color? More After a quick right, 379 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: let's get right back into it. So, how can we 380 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: make sure that our work our labor, our voices don't 381 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 1: go erased in these conversations that are so integral to 382 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: our communities. That is the most important part. And I 383 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: am bridget you and I are in spaces on the 384 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: on the daily basis where we're still struggling to make 385 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: this happen. Um. I have been in aspects with stories 386 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 1: get told by white people instead of us. I've I've 387 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: had people repeat my story in ways that made it 388 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: look like it was not connected to me at all. 389 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: I've I've seen versions. I've also seen people present my 390 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: data as if it was theirs. I've seen so many 391 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: versions of that, and so I think the challenge is 392 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: always for us to decide when we stand up, but 393 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: also decide when we basically hold people accountable. I think 394 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: that what we are seeing in some ways, what people saying, Hey, Shafika, myself, 395 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: uh Dat and others existed, is basically trying to say, 396 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: you just showed up in twenty and this has been 397 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:18,479 Speaker 1: going on. That's seven years. You don't get to have 398 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: ownership over something, I e. Discovering fake accounts pretending to 399 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: be black people, and everybody should be stepping up to 400 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,479 Speaker 1: that because we've documented over and over and over again. 401 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: Anyone that dares to do it should be held accountable, 402 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: and we should all be all of us. Anyone who's 403 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: hearing my voice should be able to say we do 404 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: not allow this to go without us being cited or 405 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: us being quoted in anything that references that conversation. Hell, yes, 406 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: I cannot. I couldnt plus one that enough. It's so 407 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: it's it's so complicated, you know, because I think that 408 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: on the one hand, it's like we're being told that 409 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,719 Speaker 1: we should just be happy to be a footnote on 410 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: something that's ours, that we created. We should just be 411 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: happy to be in the conversation at all, the conversation 412 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: that we started. That's that's exactly right. It's like, oh, 413 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: we're inviting you to this conversation. No, no, no, we 414 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: started this conversation. What are you talking about. You're inviting 415 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: us to the conversation. You are lucky that we would 416 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: even show up to your event, versus you thinking you're 417 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 1: inviting us. It's it's a very different, like just the 418 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: position to be in multiple time. I've been in multiple 419 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: rooms like that, and it's just like no, no, no, no, no, no, 420 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: this conversation is based on our first report. This conversation 421 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: is not like a nuance because other people got their 422 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: hands in it and they come up with other versions 423 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: of it. No, thank you for coming with other versions 424 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: of my report, but my report is first. Erasure of 425 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 1: that is part of this narrative, and this is why 426 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: I've been so so vocal. But the funny thing is 427 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: bridgid leading up to the election. Funny enough, people like, oh, Sharine, 428 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: now we see your report. Oh Sharia, now we know 429 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: what you were saying. And that's the that's the bad part, right. 430 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 1: It's like for those are going, oh, finally I now 431 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: get what you were saying back then, because I didn't 432 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: get it then, right, Fine, you didn't get it then, 433 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: but then you have to credit me for getting it. 434 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: There's a real cost to allowing lies and distortions to 435 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: dominate our political discourse. How many real issues have gone 436 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 1: overlooked because we were too busy discussing a conspiracy theory. 437 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: And now after the attacks at the Capitol, the media 438 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: is still giving conspiracy theorists and bad faith Charlatan's a 439 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: platform to further spread and legitimize their lives. We're we're 440 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,920 Speaker 1: in a This whole year has been basically a culture 441 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 1: of disinformation. We're either talking about the disinformation of talking 442 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: about combating the disinformation. We are not talking about election politics. 443 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: We're not talking about policies, and that's the failure of 444 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: us dealing with disinformation. Right now. We're in the sort 445 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: of the ocean of disinformation. So either we're trying to 446 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: counter it or or we're trying to um or there's 447 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: some levels of it being elevated unwillingly um whether it's 448 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 1: us trying to uh, you know, trying to counter it 449 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 1: and then unfortunately amplifying it, or we have media houses 450 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,880 Speaker 1: who think that they're talking about disinformation, or these these 451 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists, which by the way, drives me absolutely crazy. Bridge. 452 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 1: It's it's the elevation of the conspiracy theorists as if 453 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 1: their mainstream, so much so that we now have candidates 454 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 1: running with conspiracy theories as their marker. I don't know 455 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: how that makes sense and how we can't look at 456 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: that and say, have we elevated conspiracy theories this much 457 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: to the extent that it is considered mainstream instead of 458 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: a conspiracy and should not be considered a part of 459 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: a narrative or conversation to be had. What my struggle 460 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: is is that we aren't having policy discussions. We're having 461 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: dis infold discussions. And I'm not saying that it's wrong 462 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: to have discan foiled discussions. What I am saying is 463 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 1: that because we're having so much more conversation and discold discussions, 464 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: we're not elevating enough of the facts, the real policies, 465 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: the real impacts, the real the lives of people. What 466 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 1: we have done as a society is failed telling more 467 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: of the factual narrative versus a dis info. As we 468 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 1: are all working to stop the disinfo, one of the 469 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: things we have failed at is telling the true stories. 470 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: That's not gonna stop me from doing this work. By 471 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: the way, I'm just making a statement about the visual 472 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: of what that difference is. And so when people think 473 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: they're gonna show up to represent me, or speak from me, 474 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: or speak from my community with no context or understanding that, 475 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: not only is it disingenuous, but the full frontal assault. 476 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: Do you when you look on the horizon, do you 477 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: feel hopeful or does it feel like you don't even 478 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 1: know how we're gonna get out of this mess. I'm 479 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: glad you asked that question because I think that when 480 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: I just and it is also a good way to 481 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: like uplift after what I said, because it sounds like 482 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: everything is horrible. I mean, maybe that's true. Parts of 483 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 1: that is actually true. Um, why would I say, Why 484 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: would I do this if I didn't think that we 485 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: us individuals, not the government who's failing us, not not 486 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: the health care system who has failed black people in 487 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: this country for a long time. I'm not going to 488 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: remove that from this narrative. What I am saying is 489 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: I fully feel, in all of my being, I am 490 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 1: our Ancestor's greatest dreams. Like I know that everything I'm doing, 491 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: all the things I'm embodying, every choice of them made 492 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: so far. To try to fight this from my community 493 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: despite being attacked. Doing so is to make sure that 494 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,880 Speaker 1: I'm helping to protect us in some way. Who else 495 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: is going to protect us? Who else is gonna know 496 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 1: what's going on? So I asked people to show up too, 497 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: for us and for others, to not only protect our 498 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: democracy but protect individuals. What I'm saying is what we 499 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: can do to stop that. Stop the disinformation about the 500 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 1: the virus, the vaccines, stop the disinformation about our democracy 501 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: and the ways in which we can vote, because we 502 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: have the power to change that stop the disinformation from 503 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: the aspects of what what kind of lives we can 504 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: all possibly live if we weren't given tax you know, 505 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: giving giving the wealthiest in this country more tax cuts, 506 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: but we get nothing right like most of people. What 507 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: people don't understand about the disinformation that our culture and 508 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 1: our history has been built on is when we erase 509 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: certain parts of it, disinformation feeds off of it. So 510 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: I'm asking us all to participate in knowing and understanding 511 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: our entire history as to why we got here. But 512 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: also you have the ability to counter the disinformation. Use 513 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: the true sandwich. Basically, you know, if you see something disinformation, 514 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: put out the facts, debunk the disinfo, and put out 515 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: the facts again. You don't have to get into heated debates, 516 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: but do not allow the disinformation to have more space 517 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: in this in our ecosystem than the facts. What I'm 518 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: saying is that I think what's viscerally happening for some 519 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: folks is that they're understanding there's a broader context here, 520 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: there's a power grab here, there's a whole different understanding 521 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: about American exceptionalism. We are not exceptional in any in 522 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: any way, we have horrific versions of our story, and 523 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: we all need to accept that with the hope that 524 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: we can change it and not repeat it. My thing is, 525 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: I am hoping that we understand why so many people 526 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: didn't know Tulsa existed until Watchmen, a TV series sci Fi, 527 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: for people to even believe it existed. Right, It's that 528 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: removal of history in that way that makes it impossible 529 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: for us not to repeat it. So telling that story 530 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: sixteen nineteen, others telling those stories allow us to all 531 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: walk into our truth. There's so many people that still 532 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: think that some of those stories are revisionism of our history, 533 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: when it's the truth of our history, like we That's 534 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: part of why I'm asking people to report disinformation, because 535 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: I'm saying, you get to say this is a false narrative, 536 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: you get to act upon it and tell the truth, 537 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: and you get to report the false narrative. So we 538 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: have a story to tell so they don't repeat any 539 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: of this. So I am hopeful. I do think there's 540 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: a lot more people will understand what's going on. But 541 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: I also know that there in in in all honesty, 542 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,479 Speaker 1: there there's a sliver of this of this country that 543 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: doesn't want to ever ever move forward, and they're okay 544 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: with the horrific nature of this country. I know that 545 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: I'm not oblivious to that. However, what I am saying 546 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: they are more of us that sees what we can be. 547 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: So I don't agree with the narrative this is not America. 548 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: This is America. It's exactly who America has always been. 549 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: But what I'm asking you to do is be hopeful 550 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 1: for with me, is that now that you see who 551 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: we've always been, that you work towards changing to become 552 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: what we should be. Got a story about an interesting 553 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: thing in tech, or just want to say hi, We'd 554 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: love to hear from you at Hello at tangoi dot com. 555 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: Just Informed is brought to you by There Are No 556 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet. It's a production of iHeart Radio 557 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: and Unbust Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tory 558 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: Harrison is our supervising producer and engineer. Michael Motto is 559 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,959 Speaker 1: our producer. I'm your host Bridget Todd. For more great podcasts, 560 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: check out the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 561 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.