WEBVTT - The Alabama Murders - Part 4: The Protocol 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:25.356 Pushkin previously on Revisionist History. 0:00:26.436 --> 0:00:31.276 People had an idea of what had happened. When a 0:00:31.316 --> 0:00:36.476 person gets something in their mind, you know, it's kind 0:00:36.476 --> 0:00:38.316 of hard to change. 0:00:38.916 --> 0:00:43.156 I can't remember how soon they figured out that he that, 0:00:43.356 --> 0:00:46.636 you know, the preacher had finished the job and all that, 0:00:46.796 --> 0:00:50.516 but it was, you know, it was pretty obvious, pretty quick. 0:00:52.196 --> 0:00:54.916 Senate does it. The timing makes a lot more sense. 0:00:54.916 --> 0:00:59.116 He shows up after they've left, Stabs calls, stabs and calls. 0:01:00.556 --> 0:01:02.876 I mean, there's no sense in even having a jury 0:01:03.916 --> 0:01:07.276 if you if you're going to be able to overturn 0:01:07.516 --> 0:01:09.636 the jury, if a judge can overturners. 0:01:18.516 --> 0:01:20.756 I don't know how much Tom Hafflan explained to you. 0:01:20.756 --> 0:01:23.836 But he just told me you were okay to talk to. 0:01:24.196 --> 0:01:26.236 Oh, that's very kind, and we're just. 0:01:26.356 --> 0:01:30.956 We're very John Parker's very very dear to me, and 0:01:31.036 --> 0:01:33.516 I'm just very protective. I wouldn't want to do anything 0:01:33.596 --> 0:01:37.916 to hurt he or his family. Yeah, but other than that, 0:01:38.036 --> 0:01:39.236 I'm willing to talk. 0:01:39.996 --> 0:01:44.196 This is Tom Perry Junior, Big Guy Beard from Demopolis, Alabama, 0:01:44.636 --> 0:01:47.316 who on the third Saturday of every month for years 0:01:47.596 --> 0:01:50.236 and years, would spend a day on death row in 0:01:50.356 --> 0:01:54.396 Donaldson prison just outside Birmingham. I called him up because 0:01:54.476 --> 0:01:57.396 John Forest Parker's lawyer told me, if you want to 0:01:57.476 --> 0:02:00.916 understand something more about Parker, talk to Tom Perry. 0:02:01.796 --> 0:02:03.716 I want to tell you something, Malcolm. Then I don't 0:02:03.756 --> 0:02:06.676 need to take over your interview now. But I'm no, 0:02:06.876 --> 0:02:09.676 I'm no really do Gooder. I'm just an old God 0:02:09.716 --> 0:02:13.316 has fallen short every day. I just happened the Lord 0:02:13.476 --> 0:02:18.236 uses me in the penitentiary setting because of my my shortcomings. 0:02:18.236 --> 0:02:19.196 If that makes sense. 0:02:20.796 --> 0:02:24.796 Now, you're I can't resist almost everyone I've been talking 0:02:24.796 --> 0:02:26.836 to you with a story so far as Church of Christ. 0:02:27.276 --> 0:02:29.596 I am not in your Methodist what I don't understand 0:02:29.596 --> 0:02:31.276 why you're not Church of Christ. What's going on? 0:02:32.756 --> 0:02:37.596 I don't know. I'm just maybe I like the cocktail 0:02:37.676 --> 0:02:39.476 too much of the Church of Christ. 0:02:45.276 --> 0:02:47.316 In this episode, I'm going to tell you about what 0:02:47.396 --> 0:02:50.836 happened to John Forrest Parker after he was sentenced to death, 0:02:51.876 --> 0:02:53.876 and give you a meditation on a phrase from the 0:02:53.956 --> 0:02:56.716 Jesuit priest James Keenan that I have come back too 0:02:56.716 --> 0:03:01.196 many times sin. It's a failure to bother to care. 0:03:03.316 --> 0:03:06.156 This is the story of someone who bothered to care 0:03:06.636 --> 0:03:11.836 and someone else who couldn't be bothered at all. My 0:03:11.956 --> 0:03:16.116 name is Malcolm Gladwell. This is the Alabama Murders, Episode four. 0:03:17.076 --> 0:03:29.636 The protocol. In the time that you were doing ministry 0:03:29.676 --> 0:03:33.756 at Donaldson, how many men that you were working with 0:03:34.076 --> 0:03:34.876 got executed? 0:03:35.996 --> 0:03:43.636 I believe I've been with thirteen, maybe twelve. 0:03:44.356 --> 0:03:47.836 Yeah, Perry got involved working with people on death row 0:03:47.916 --> 0:03:49.676 through a mentor of his. Ben. 0:03:49.716 --> 0:03:54.516 Shehad like when I first went back, Big Ben Sheriff says, now, look, 0:03:55.756 --> 0:03:58.356 if you come back here and you start coming and 0:03:58.436 --> 0:04:00.876 these guys ask you to go all the way with them, 0:04:01.036 --> 0:04:02.876 you got to be willing to go. And if you're not, 0:04:03.156 --> 0:04:06.076 I understand, but don't come back. And I said, what's 0:04:06.116 --> 0:04:08.356 all the way? He said, well, you know, bet, if 0:04:08.396 --> 0:04:12.116 they're executed, if they have living family, they don't necessarily 0:04:12.156 --> 0:04:14.796 want their family to watch them die or to be 0:04:14.836 --> 0:04:17.836 their only member. But we need somebody there that loves them. 0:04:17.836 --> 0:04:19.876 And if they ask you to be with them, you 0:04:19.956 --> 0:04:21.796 need you can't. You need to be willing to go, 0:04:21.836 --> 0:04:25.076 and if you're not, just don't come. And at the time, 0:04:25.156 --> 0:04:27.796 we had had an execution in Alabama in a very 0:04:27.836 --> 0:04:31.196 long time. And I said, sure, Well, you know I 0:04:31.196 --> 0:04:32.996 didn't know what I was getting into. But I mean, 0:04:34.796 --> 0:04:39.236 and like when I say at twelve or thirteen, Malcolm 0:04:39.276 --> 0:04:41.516 ten or eleven of them, I was praying with their 0:04:41.556 --> 0:04:43.036 families at the time they died. 0:04:43.476 --> 0:04:48.356 What that's a hard thing to go through. Loose thirteen 0:04:48.636 --> 0:04:49.436 thirteen men? 0:04:50.556 --> 0:04:57.556 You like I want. I want to tell you the 0:04:57.596 --> 0:05:00.796 honest to goodness true. I don't want to we joke. 0:05:00.876 --> 0:05:04.276 He gally call it, you know, stupid Christians, but uh, 0:05:04.596 --> 0:05:07.436 I don't. My one little witness I'll give you is 0:05:07.956 --> 0:05:13.676 he gives you the now. When it's over, I usually 0:05:13.756 --> 0:05:18.236 have need somebody to drive me home, But up until then, 0:05:19.236 --> 0:05:21.396 you just have the strength to do it. But it's 0:05:21.476 --> 0:05:23.836 so hard you wouldn't believe. And it affects you. 0:05:26.196 --> 0:05:29.916 John Forest Parker was one of those thirteen and maybe 0:05:29.956 --> 0:05:31.436 the one closest to his heart. 0:05:32.316 --> 0:05:35.956 And no, man, I love John Parker. I sure do 0:05:36.076 --> 0:05:39.436 miss it nuts. The only reservations I have about doing 0:05:39.476 --> 0:05:42.516 this is you know that fifteen years it kind of 0:05:42.956 --> 0:05:44.596 makes me miss him a little more. 0:05:48.156 --> 0:05:50.556 The jury in John Parker's trial voted ten to two 0:05:50.676 --> 0:05:54.076 for life without parole, but under Alabama lot at the time, 0:05:54.276 --> 0:05:57.716 a judge was allowed to override a jury's recommendation, and 0:05:57.756 --> 0:06:02.116 this is what the judge, INGA. Johnson did. Johnson sentenced 0:06:02.196 --> 0:06:05.716 Parker to death in nineteen eighty nine. He was remanded 0:06:05.756 --> 0:06:09.676 to Donaldson Prison and placed on death row four ourselves 0:06:09.996 --> 0:06:13.556 in two blocks of twelve, and there Perry began to 0:06:13.636 --> 0:06:17.236 visit him. Making the two hour drive from Demopolis to Donaldson. 0:06:17.996 --> 0:06:20.756 Perry would go with his friend Ben Sherrid. A handful 0:06:20.756 --> 0:06:23.796 of others would join them. When Perry first met Parker, 0:06:24.436 --> 0:06:25.836 Parker wouldn't come out of his cell. 0:06:27.036 --> 0:06:30.516 Sometimes we would take food, and if we took food, 0:06:30.596 --> 0:06:32.516 John would come out to eat. You know, we had 0:06:32.596 --> 0:06:35.836 really good food. But then his first chance, he'd go 0:06:35.876 --> 0:06:38.076 back to his cell. But if we didn't have food, 0:06:38.156 --> 0:06:40.356 John didn't come out. Well, of course we learn as 0:06:40.396 --> 0:06:43.876 I developed my relationship with him. You know, Reverend Senate 0:06:44.636 --> 0:06:48.036 is who hired them. So he did when you said 0:06:48.436 --> 0:06:52.876 religion and preachers, and he wanted nothing to do with it, 0:06:52.956 --> 0:06:56.396 because you know, he still equated that with Reverend Senate. 0:06:57.436 --> 0:07:00.356 Then Perry met Parker's mother. He told her that her 0:07:00.356 --> 0:07:01.556 son wouldn't leave his cell. 0:07:02.276 --> 0:07:04.356 She said he didn't come out and said, no man, 0:07:04.916 --> 0:07:07.516 She said, next month we went every month. She said, 0:07:07.516 --> 0:07:10.716 you tell him his mama said better come out. So 0:07:10.796 --> 0:07:12.676 I had and told him that. He said, I'll be there. 0:07:12.756 --> 0:07:15.716 That he never missed. The next month, he never missed, 0:07:15.756 --> 0:07:17.876 and he and I became very very good friends. And 0:07:18.556 --> 0:07:19.876 he can find it a lot in me. 0:07:19.956 --> 0:07:21.596 So what was he like? 0:07:24.316 --> 0:07:28.356 Now you understand, Malcolm, I do believe that the Good 0:07:28.396 --> 0:07:35.556 Lord changes people. John was very intelligent, very well read, 0:07:36.916 --> 0:07:42.516 heck of a nice guy, just a wonderful person. He's 0:07:42.556 --> 0:07:44.276 just the kind of guy you wanted to hang out with. 0:07:44.716 --> 0:07:47.396 He told me. He said, you know, since then I've 0:07:47.436 --> 0:07:50.316 come in here, I've learned to read better and write 0:07:50.396 --> 0:07:52.396 better and do things better. 0:07:53.196 --> 0:07:56.236 In prison, he was sober and off drugs for the 0:07:56.276 --> 0:07:57.676 first time since he was twelve. 0:07:58.676 --> 0:08:02.236 Spoke very open, with openly with me about his crime, 0:08:03.316 --> 0:08:08.676 and I mean I remember one thing he said, and 0:08:08.756 --> 0:08:13.836 he he was adam it with me. This was very 0:08:13.836 --> 0:08:16.796 difficult for John because he knew they were going to 0:08:16.876 --> 0:08:22.316 give him last words at his execution. And he said, 0:08:22.956 --> 0:08:25.996 you know, I didn't kill miss Stennett. I said, yeah, 0:08:26.036 --> 0:08:29.316 I know that, he said, but I was involved, and 0:08:30.156 --> 0:08:33.436 that's a horrible thing I was involved in. And he said, 0:08:33.436 --> 0:08:36.596 I've been in prison, probably not long enough. But he said, 0:08:36.596 --> 0:08:39.476 but I didn't kill him, And he said, we snapped 0:08:39.476 --> 0:08:42.596 out of it. You know, they told us that, you know, 0:08:42.716 --> 0:08:45.636 Reverend Sennet came home and killed her. I don't know. 0:08:45.716 --> 0:08:51.836 Are you aware of that? And he and he said, well, 0:08:51.876 --> 0:08:55.796 I mean, he said, I remember hitting her. And it 0:08:55.916 --> 0:08:58.316 was like a light bulb went off, like what the 0:08:58.316 --> 0:09:02.476 hell are you doing? And he said, but that was horrible. 0:09:02.556 --> 0:09:05.476 And I'm not sure I've been in prison long enough. 0:09:06.156 --> 0:09:12.036 Yeah, And you said, was your were you was? Was 0:09:12.076 --> 0:09:15.916 the ministry part of your visiting explicit? Or how much 0:09:15.956 --> 0:09:17.836 of how much of this were you trying to bring 0:09:17.876 --> 0:09:19.436 the message of Jesus to these men? 0:09:19.556 --> 0:09:24.396 Or it was that was that was absolutely central? But 0:09:24.516 --> 0:09:31.476 you gotta understand. I realized quickly that our ministry, more 0:09:31.516 --> 0:09:36.636 important than any words, was a ministry at presence, the 0:09:36.796 --> 0:09:40.316 fact that you showed up every time that prison would 0:09:40.356 --> 0:09:43.716 let you. On the third Saturday, we'd go and they'd 0:09:43.796 --> 0:09:48.116 let us stay two or three hours, but on twice 0:09:48.156 --> 0:09:51.316 a year we would stay for three. We'd go in 0:09:51.516 --> 0:09:56.196 on a Thursday evening, well, going on Friday morning, stay 0:09:56.276 --> 0:10:00.276 all day, and then go on Saturdays, stay all day 0:10:00.356 --> 0:10:02.236 and go on Sundays and that's called a three day 0:10:02.276 --> 0:10:05.636 WEEKI and we would do that twice a year. 0:10:06.356 --> 0:10:09.076 Tom, you, this is a commitment. 0:10:10.196 --> 0:10:13.276 It was a tremendous commitment. But I talked to my 0:10:13.356 --> 0:10:15.716 wife about it. I had young children at the time, 0:10:16.516 --> 0:10:18.956 and my wife says, you know, look, I have to say, 0:10:18.996 --> 0:10:21.196 it makes you a better person, a better day, and 0:10:21.356 --> 0:10:23.476 a better husband. So go forward. 0:10:24.836 --> 0:10:28.156 Their visits went on for twenty three years as Parker's 0:10:28.196 --> 0:10:31.876 appeals wound their way through the legal system. Finally, his 0:10:31.996 --> 0:10:36.116 execution date was set six pm June tenth, twenty ten. 0:10:38.236 --> 0:10:40.996 Parker was moved to home in prison in Atmore, in 0:10:41.076 --> 0:10:44.116 the far south of the state, near Mobile. That's where 0:10:44.156 --> 0:10:47.796 the state's execution chamber is. He was put in a 0:10:47.836 --> 0:10:50.836 special holding cell. In the days letting up to his execution, 0:10:52.356 --> 0:10:55.596 he filed two last appeals in his final week to 0:10:55.636 --> 0:10:58.876 the Alabama Supreme Court and then the US Supreme Court. 0:10:59.676 --> 0:11:03.956 Both failed. On his last day, he skipped breakfast, but 0:11:04.036 --> 0:11:07.276 chose a dinner of fried fish, French fries, and iced tea. 0:11:08.116 --> 0:11:11.836 He gave his mother his gold watch, a mirror, seven stamps, 0:11:11.876 --> 0:11:14.716 and a box of pictures. He gave his two nephews, 0:11:14.756 --> 0:11:19.236 his belt, and his wallet. He died by lethal injection 0:11:19.716 --> 0:11:29.996 at six forty one pm. Tom Perry was there with him. 0:11:27.796 --> 0:11:31.196 And then you know, he was finally gone. But then 0:11:33.076 --> 0:11:36.316 after that, I have to get back on that van 0:11:36.796 --> 0:11:38.916 and I go back to the hotel where about the 0:11:38.996 --> 0:11:44.276 other people had been in there praying with his family, 0:11:44.676 --> 0:11:46.196 and I have to go in and tell him, you know, 0:11:46.316 --> 0:11:50.236 John's gone. He was peaceful, he didn't appear to suffer. 0:11:54.236 --> 0:12:12.156 He didn't appear to suffer. We'll be right back. To 0:12:12.276 --> 0:12:15.996 understand the particulars of John Parker's execution, you have to 0:12:16.036 --> 0:12:19.996 go back to nineteen seventy seven in Oklahoma City. In 0:12:20.036 --> 0:12:23.276 the mid seventies, the Supreme Court had just lifted a 0:12:23.356 --> 0:12:27.436 long moratorium on capital punishment. The court had been concerned 0:12:27.476 --> 0:12:31.916 that existing methods like the electric chair violated the constitutional 0:12:31.956 --> 0:12:36.836 prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment. Watching someone die on 0:12:36.876 --> 0:12:40.356 the electric chair was like watching a horror movie. Public 0:12:40.396 --> 0:12:44.356 scrutiny was high. The court said that states could only 0:12:44.396 --> 0:12:46.876 bring back the death penalty if they found a more 0:12:46.956 --> 0:12:50.716 socially acceptable and legally rigorous way of applying it. 0:12:51.916 --> 0:12:55.876 So at that point, there were several things going on 0:12:55.956 --> 0:12:59.156 First of all, there were journalists who were threatening to 0:13:00.116 --> 0:13:03.716 litigate so that they could see the next execution, and 0:13:03.756 --> 0:13:07.276 Oklahoma and other states such as Texas were very concerned 0:13:07.316 --> 0:13:11.916 about that. They thought they these executions would be videotaped 0:13:12.316 --> 0:13:13.596 and displayed to the world. 0:13:14.316 --> 0:13:17.436 This is Deborah Deno, who teaches law at Fordham University 0:13:17.476 --> 0:13:19.436 in New York City and is one of the countries 0:13:19.676 --> 0:13:21.836 leading legal experts on capital punishment. 0:13:22.476 --> 0:13:26.556 Number two Ronald Reagan, then Governor Ronald Reagan a few 0:13:26.636 --> 0:13:31.116 years earlier, had sort of made a pronouncement of why 0:13:31.196 --> 0:13:34.316 don't we just execute inmates the way we put horses down? 0:13:34.876 --> 0:13:38.076 In case you're wondering, this is what Reagan said. Being 0:13:38.116 --> 0:13:40.876 a former farmer and horse razer, I know what it's 0:13:40.956 --> 0:13:43.916 like to try to eliminate an injured horse by shooting him. 0:13:44.356 --> 0:13:47.196 Now you call the veterinarian, and the vet gives it 0:13:47.236 --> 0:13:50.116 a shot, and the horse goes to sleep. That's it, 0:13:50.956 --> 0:13:51.196 you know. 0:13:51.796 --> 0:13:54.116 I think there was a pressure to have a method 0:13:54.116 --> 0:13:58.476 that looked more humane than electrocution and lethal gas. Those 0:13:58.516 --> 0:14:01.756 were the pressures that that was on the state. 0:14:02.316 --> 0:14:06.436 So from the beginning, you know, these are states terrified 0:14:06.476 --> 0:14:10.836 of journalists being able to videotape what's happening, So their 0:14:10.876 --> 0:14:14.396 concern is really with what this looks like to the world. 0:14:14.676 --> 0:14:19.796 That's right the perception world, Yes, absolutely. 0:14:20.716 --> 0:14:20.796 So. 0:14:21.476 --> 0:14:25.796 Oklahoma City, nineteen seventy seven, a state senator named Bill 0:14:25.836 --> 0:14:29.356 Wiseman takes up the court's challenge. He wants to find 0:14:29.396 --> 0:14:32.396 a way to make capital punishment more humane, and one 0:14:32.476 --> 0:14:35.036 day he gets a call from the Oklahoma State Medical 0:14:35.076 --> 0:14:39.676 Examiner AJ Chapman, who has heard about Wiseman's crusade and 0:14:39.756 --> 0:14:44.036 has an idea. He gives Wiseman a rough outline for 0:14:44.116 --> 0:14:47.276 what would come to be known as lethal injection, two 0:14:47.396 --> 0:14:51.996 drugs in sequence. First a sedative like a barbituate to 0:14:52.036 --> 0:14:55.436 put the prisoner to sleep, then a paralytic something to 0:14:55.476 --> 0:15:00.916 immobilize them. Later, Chapman added a third drug, potassium chloride, 0:15:01.036 --> 0:15:04.276 which is the main ingredient in chemical fertilizer and which 0:15:04.396 --> 0:15:08.716 in elevated doses causes hyperkalemia, which is like flipping the 0:15:08.756 --> 0:15:12.796 powers switch on your heart. Wiseman took Chapman's idea and 0:15:12.876 --> 0:15:16.676 put it before the Oklahoma State Legislature. It passed by 0:15:16.716 --> 0:15:20.636 an overwhelming margin. I'm reading now from an editorial in 0:15:20.716 --> 0:15:25.516 the Vista the student newspaper at Central State University in Oklahoma. 0:15:26.516 --> 0:15:30.196 Lethal injection is not only less traumatic on the prisoner, 0:15:30.476 --> 0:15:33.516 but it would also be easier on witnesses, for they 0:15:33.556 --> 0:15:37.316 would not have to endure the grizzly site of roasting flesh, 0:15:37.676 --> 0:15:46.716 bulging eyeballs, or squirting blood. But Chapman's protocol was never tested. 0:15:47.276 --> 0:15:49.716 I mean, how could you test it. You're trying to 0:15:49.796 --> 0:15:54.396 kill someone. Everyone you would experiment on would die as 0:15:54.436 --> 0:15:58.236 a result. No one really knew how it worked. In 0:15:58.236 --> 0:16:02.436 his memoirs, published years later, Chapman argued that knowing the 0:16:02.476 --> 0:16:06.796 precise method of action didn't matter, since quote, the properties 0:16:06.836 --> 0:16:10.396 of the drugs were extremely well known. The three drug 0:16:10.436 --> 0:16:13.476 combination was just a variation on a protocol that was 0:16:13.516 --> 0:16:17.476 being used for anesthesia every day in hospitals all around 0:16:17.516 --> 0:16:24.116 the world. But of course that isn't quite true, is it. 0:16:24.116 --> 0:16:27.036 It's not the same procedure that's used for medical anesthesia, 0:16:27.436 --> 0:16:30.636 because the intention of medical anesthesia is to keep the 0:16:30.636 --> 0:16:34.636 patient alive, and the intention of lethal injection is to 0:16:34.676 --> 0:16:37.836 give those same drugs in doses so large that the 0:16:37.916 --> 0:16:44.476 patient dies. That's actually totally different. Did Chapman how much 0:16:44.516 --> 0:16:49.676 thought did he put into this three drug protocol. 0:16:49.516 --> 0:16:51.636 You know, I mean that's a question for him. I 0:16:51.676 --> 0:16:53.676 do know that they came up with this in the 0:16:53.676 --> 0:16:54.836 course of an afternoon. 0:16:56.916 --> 0:16:59.236 We reached out to Chapman for an interview, but he 0:16:59.316 --> 0:17:03.476 declined to talk to us. The Oklahoma protocol would become 0:17:03.516 --> 0:17:07.316 the method of choice in thirty other American states. It's 0:17:07.356 --> 0:17:10.916 even with a minor variation what countries like Canada use 0:17:10.956 --> 0:17:16.516 today for euthanasia. But how exactly does it work? I 0:17:16.556 --> 0:17:18.796 know this seems like a pedantic point, but it is 0:17:18.876 --> 0:17:21.876 the settled position of the United States, in fact of 0:17:21.956 --> 0:17:24.596 most of the world that a mark of a civilized 0:17:24.636 --> 0:17:29.676 society is that its punishment is humane. You can't torture people. 0:17:30.396 --> 0:17:32.916 Even if you've decided to kill a prisoner, you have 0:17:32.996 --> 0:17:36.836 to do it the right way. So, once again, how 0:17:36.876 --> 0:17:38.716 does lethal injection kill people? 0:17:39.876 --> 0:17:43.756 So I was given a stack of autopsies of prisoners 0:17:44.396 --> 0:17:46.756 executed and here in the state of Georgia. 0:17:47.556 --> 0:17:52.516 Joel Zivitt, an anisesiologist at Emory University in Georgia. 0:17:52.796 --> 0:17:59.276 There's an automatic autopsy that was that's performed on these prisoners. Interestingly, 0:17:59.396 --> 0:18:01.916 by the way, the cause of death that's written on 0:18:01.956 --> 0:18:04.476 the death centerficate is homicide. 0:18:05.076 --> 0:18:08.756 Because he's an anestesiologist, and lethal injection is basically the 0:18:08.796 --> 0:18:12.756 homae subtle version of anesthesiology. As if it was approached 0:18:12.756 --> 0:18:15.236 by a group of lawyers who had a client on 0:18:15.316 --> 0:18:18.796 death row. They had a technical question, could he tell 0:18:18.956 --> 0:18:21.796 from looking at the blood work of executed prisoners whether 0:18:21.836 --> 0:18:25.236 they were conscious at the point of death. The operating 0:18:25.236 --> 0:18:29.636 assumption behind lethal injection was that they were unconscious, that 0:18:29.636 --> 0:18:33.356 they would be fully anesthetized when the potassium chloride hit 0:18:33.396 --> 0:18:35.956 their heart. But did we know that for a fact? 0:18:36.636 --> 0:18:39.756 So I just I read the autopsy, read the first 0:18:39.796 --> 0:18:42.556 autopsy and kind of was going through it and saw 0:18:42.756 --> 0:18:48.516 this finding that was surprising, which was that in this 0:18:48.596 --> 0:18:52.436 first one that I read that the lungs were what's 0:18:52.476 --> 0:18:53.996 called heavy. 0:18:54.036 --> 0:18:56.156 This had nothing to do with the question he'd been 0:18:56.156 --> 0:18:59.236 asked to answer. It was completely unexpected. 0:18:59.796 --> 0:19:02.156 As part of an autopsy, the lungs are removed from 0:19:02.156 --> 0:19:04.956 the body and just flopped on a scale. And all 0:19:04.996 --> 0:19:08.876 these lungs were heavy. Why were they heavy? They were 0:19:08.876 --> 0:19:14.436 heavy because they were full of bloody, frothy fluid. And 0:19:14.916 --> 0:19:19.076 this bloody, frothy fluid could not have gotten into the 0:19:19.156 --> 0:19:20.316 lungs after death. 0:19:21.516 --> 0:19:24.396 If you're dead, your heart has stopped working, so there's 0:19:24.436 --> 0:19:26.676 no way for fluid to get pumped into your lungs. 0:19:27.316 --> 0:19:30.156 It had to have happened while the prisoner was still alive. 0:19:33.756 --> 0:19:36.876 And what was assumed, I think by me and others 0:19:36.916 --> 0:19:39.436 I hadn't really thought about it was that the body 0:19:39.476 --> 0:19:42.756 would be essentially Christine, you know, there wouldn't be this 0:19:42.916 --> 0:19:48.196 kind of destruction of organs within the body. But when 0:19:48.196 --> 0:19:50.556 I went through the whole list, almost eighty percent of 0:19:50.636 --> 0:19:53.556 the time, so eight out of ten times, there was 0:19:53.596 --> 0:19:57.156 this finding of this frothy, bloody fluid. So you could 0:19:57.236 --> 0:20:00.396 cut into the windpipe and the fluid would be just 0:20:00.476 --> 0:20:03.316 frothing right in there without being pardon me, too graphic. 0:20:04.076 --> 0:20:07.076 So the question then was how did it get in there? 0:20:07.796 --> 0:20:11.116 I conferred with a lithologist colleague of mind. We kind 0:20:11.116 --> 0:20:13.996 of puzzled over this for a while, and it occurred 0:20:14.036 --> 0:20:16.236 to us that you know, what we think, what I 0:20:16.316 --> 0:20:20.316 think is that it's actually the way the penta barbitol 0:20:20.836 --> 0:20:21.556 is prepared. 0:20:22.436 --> 0:20:25.196 Pent To barbitol is the first of the drugs used 0:20:25.236 --> 0:20:29.556 in the fatal injection protocol. It's the sedative and it 0:20:29.556 --> 0:20:30.996 has a high pH. 0:20:31.916 --> 0:20:35.516 This is sort of basic chemistry. The pH scale goes 0:20:35.596 --> 0:20:40.236 from one to fourteen. Seven is neutral. The other thing 0:20:40.276 --> 0:20:42.996 important to know about the pH scale is that it's 0:20:42.996 --> 0:20:45.756 a log scale, so it means that every time you 0:20:45.836 --> 0:20:48.916 move one number, you're going up by a factor of ten. 0:20:49.956 --> 0:20:53.396 You know, for a reference, the Richter scale of earthquakes 0:20:53.596 --> 0:20:56.356 is also a log scale. That's why an earthquake of 0:20:56.396 --> 0:20:58.636 four and a half, you know, you kind of you know, 0:20:58.716 --> 0:21:01.676 will maybe shuffle the ground underneath you, but an earthquake 0:21:01.716 --> 0:21:04.116 of eight and a half will split the world in half. 0:21:04.316 --> 0:21:06.396 So it's a huge, powerful difference. 0:21:07.436 --> 0:21:11.116 The body's normal pH is between seven point three five 0:21:11.676 --> 0:21:14.796 and seven point four to five. If you drop below 0:21:14.876 --> 0:21:20.276 seven or rise above eight, you'll probably die. The pen 0:21:20.356 --> 0:21:24.116 to barbitol is between nine and eleven. Now, when pent 0:21:24.196 --> 0:21:27.436 to barbitel is used in ordinary medicine, this fact doesn't 0:21:27.476 --> 0:21:31.156 matter that much. The dose is pretty small. It burns 0:21:31.196 --> 0:21:33.236 a little, but the body compensates. 0:21:35.076 --> 0:21:38.836 But now imagine giving ten times that quantity and pushing 0:21:38.836 --> 0:21:43.556 it into a small vein. It travels rapidly to the heart, 0:21:43.636 --> 0:21:46.796 where the heart comps it immediately into the lungs, and 0:21:46.876 --> 0:21:50.556 it tears the lungs apart. Basically, they get burned from 0:21:50.556 --> 0:21:54.676 the inside and then the separation of air and blood. 0:21:55.516 --> 0:21:59.036 There's a very fine layer of tissue there that gets 0:21:59.196 --> 0:22:03.996 destroyed and the blood just pours into the lungs. And 0:22:04.116 --> 0:22:08.356 I'm sorry as I'm saying this, it's awful, and this 0:22:08.556 --> 0:22:12.156 is what this is how lethal injection actually kills you. 0:22:12.596 --> 0:22:16.716 It kills you by burning your lungs up, and you're 0:22:16.756 --> 0:22:21.356 also paralyzed, so you can't complain that this is happening. 0:22:22.236 --> 0:22:24.156 And then to finish you off, of course, you know 0:22:24.196 --> 0:22:27.876 you're probably begging for the potassium at that point, because 0:22:27.916 --> 0:22:32.916 that finally stops your heart and stops this process. But 0:22:32.956 --> 0:22:35.796 in the meantime, you know this has been gone on 0:22:35.916 --> 0:22:40.196 for a few minutes, so the last thing that you know, 0:22:40.276 --> 0:22:43.156 you may know, is that you're on fire from the 0:22:43.196 --> 0:22:46.876 inside and the blood is filling up your lungs as 0:22:46.916 --> 0:22:50.716 you die. Is this too graphic? 0:22:52.516 --> 0:22:55.756 Of course it is, But that's the point, because the 0:22:55.796 --> 0:22:59.076 reason lethal injections started in the first place was it 0:22:59.116 --> 0:23:01.756 Even the proponents of the death penalty were eager to 0:23:01.796 --> 0:23:05.556 find a method that was humane, that didn't involve fixing 0:23:05.676 --> 0:23:08.836 metal plates to someone's head and frying their brains with 0:23:08.876 --> 0:23:12.756 a of electricity, and Zevit's point is that this is 0:23:12.796 --> 0:23:16.916 not actually more humane, it just looks that way. Death 0:23:16.956 --> 0:23:21.996 penalty advocates were trying to satisfy the constitutional prohibition against 0:23:21.996 --> 0:23:26.316 cruel and unusual punishment, but their innovation only spared the 0:23:26.316 --> 0:23:30.596 suffering of the witnesses to an execution, not the subject 0:23:30.716 --> 0:23:34.516 of the execution. The whole thing was an illusion. But 0:23:34.596 --> 0:23:37.836 even that's not the issue. The real issue is that 0:23:37.876 --> 0:23:41.316 the lethal injection protocol was dreamt up on the back 0:23:41.356 --> 0:23:44.756 of an envelope, and until joel' vivid came along by 0:23:44.836 --> 0:23:49.116 accident fifty years later, none of the people who championed 0:23:49.196 --> 0:23:52.316 lethal injection could get around to wondering just how their 0:23:52.356 --> 0:23:56.476 preferred method worked. And it's not like the evidence wasn't available. 0:23:57.556 --> 0:24:01.396 In many states, there's an autopsy on everyone who's executed. 0:24:02.076 --> 0:24:05.716 The autopsies were just sitting there in a drawer somewhere, 0:24:06.076 --> 0:24:09.876 hundreds of them, and in almost every case they were 0:24:09.956 --> 0:24:15.516 characterized by the same inexplicable finding. Here's what I don't understand. 0:24:15.876 --> 0:24:17.556 Nobody noticed this till you. 0:24:19.196 --> 0:24:19.876 Apparently not. 0:24:21.236 --> 0:24:22.916 Isn't that astonishing. 0:24:24.436 --> 0:24:25.116 Astonishing? 0:24:25.916 --> 0:24:27.396 Well, I don't know. 0:24:27.556 --> 0:24:30.076 I made a guess though, you know, I guess it's astonishing, 0:24:30.156 --> 0:24:33.116 but you know what you have to be. You have 0:24:33.156 --> 0:24:38.676 to be curious, I suppose, or care or or I mean, 0:24:38.876 --> 0:24:40.956 what's astonishing to me is the fact that it was 0:24:41.036 --> 0:24:45.996 noticed every time by pathologists. No one said anything. It's 0:24:46.036 --> 0:24:49.436 not like a pathologist said, wow, look at this finding 0:24:49.476 --> 0:24:52.156 and brought it to that I'm aware of, like when 0:24:52.156 --> 0:24:56.156 I first had the In my job as an antecycologist intentivist, 0:24:56.476 --> 0:24:58.436 I look at autopsies, but I don't, you know, it's 0:24:58.476 --> 0:25:01.116 not I don't make a living at autopsies. So to 0:25:01.156 --> 0:25:02.716 be sure that I was seeing what I thought I 0:25:02.756 --> 0:25:05.556 was seeing, I sent it to my colleague of mine, 0:25:05.636 --> 0:25:10.276 Mark Edgar, who's a pathologist. I said, look, I've got 0:25:10.276 --> 0:25:13.476 this list. I'm not telling you what this is, okay, 0:25:13.996 --> 0:25:16.356 just tell me what you see, you know, what do 0:25:16.396 --> 0:25:19.596 you see? And and he came back and said, well, 0:25:19.676 --> 0:25:21.396 all these you know, that's all these heavy lungs, like 0:25:21.396 --> 0:25:23.516 there's all this pompiliar demail, Like what what is that? 0:25:23.676 --> 0:25:28.876