1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:25,356 Speaker 1: Pushkin previously on Revisionist History. 2 00:00:26,436 --> 00:00:31,276 Speaker 2: People had an idea of what had happened. When a 3 00:00:31,316 --> 00:00:36,476 Speaker 2: person gets something in their mind, you know, it's kind 4 00:00:36,476 --> 00:00:38,316 Speaker 2: of hard to change. 5 00:00:38,916 --> 00:00:43,156 Speaker 3: I can't remember how soon they figured out that he that, 6 00:00:43,356 --> 00:00:46,636 Speaker 3: you know, the preacher had finished the job and all that, 7 00:00:46,796 --> 00:00:50,516 Speaker 3: but it was, you know, it was pretty obvious, pretty quick. 8 00:00:52,196 --> 00:00:54,916 Speaker 1: Senate does it. The timing makes a lot more sense. 9 00:00:54,916 --> 00:00:59,116 Speaker 1: He shows up after they've left, Stabs calls, stabs and calls. 10 00:01:00,556 --> 00:01:02,876 Speaker 2: I mean, there's no sense in even having a jury 11 00:01:03,916 --> 00:01:07,276 Speaker 2: if you if you're going to be able to overturn 12 00:01:07,516 --> 00:01:09,636 Speaker 2: the jury, if a judge can overturners. 13 00:01:18,516 --> 00:01:20,756 Speaker 1: I don't know how much Tom Hafflan explained to you. 14 00:01:20,756 --> 00:01:23,836 Speaker 4: But he just told me you were okay to talk to. 15 00:01:24,196 --> 00:01:26,236 Speaker 1: Oh, that's very kind, and we're just. 16 00:01:26,356 --> 00:01:30,956 Speaker 4: We're very John Parker's very very dear to me, and 17 00:01:31,036 --> 00:01:33,516 Speaker 4: I'm just very protective. I wouldn't want to do anything 18 00:01:33,596 --> 00:01:37,916 Speaker 4: to hurt he or his family. Yeah, but other than that, 19 00:01:38,036 --> 00:01:39,236 Speaker 4: I'm willing to talk. 20 00:01:39,996 --> 00:01:44,196 Speaker 1: This is Tom Perry Junior, Big Guy Beard from Demopolis, Alabama, 21 00:01:44,636 --> 00:01:47,316 Speaker 1: who on the third Saturday of every month for years 22 00:01:47,596 --> 00:01:50,236 Speaker 1: and years, would spend a day on death row in 23 00:01:50,356 --> 00:01:54,396 Speaker 1: Donaldson prison just outside Birmingham. I called him up because 24 00:01:54,476 --> 00:01:57,396 Speaker 1: John Forest Parker's lawyer told me, if you want to 25 00:01:57,476 --> 00:02:00,916 Speaker 1: understand something more about Parker, talk to Tom Perry. 26 00:02:01,796 --> 00:02:03,716 Speaker 4: I want to tell you something, Malcolm. Then I don't 27 00:02:03,756 --> 00:02:06,676 Speaker 4: need to take over your interview now. But I'm no, 28 00:02:06,876 --> 00:02:09,676 Speaker 4: I'm no really do Gooder. I'm just an old God 29 00:02:09,716 --> 00:02:13,316 Speaker 4: has fallen short every day. I just happened the Lord 30 00:02:13,476 --> 00:02:18,236 Speaker 4: uses me in the penitentiary setting because of my my shortcomings. 31 00:02:18,236 --> 00:02:19,196 Speaker 4: If that makes sense. 32 00:02:20,796 --> 00:02:24,796 Speaker 1: Now, you're I can't resist almost everyone I've been talking 33 00:02:24,796 --> 00:02:26,836 Speaker 1: to you with a story so far as Church of Christ. 34 00:02:27,276 --> 00:02:29,596 Speaker 1: I am not in your Methodist what I don't understand 35 00:02:29,596 --> 00:02:31,276 Speaker 1: why you're not Church of Christ. What's going on? 36 00:02:32,756 --> 00:02:37,596 Speaker 4: I don't know. I'm just maybe I like the cocktail 37 00:02:37,676 --> 00:02:39,476 Speaker 4: too much of the Church of Christ. 38 00:02:45,276 --> 00:02:47,316 Speaker 1: In this episode, I'm going to tell you about what 39 00:02:47,396 --> 00:02:50,836 Speaker 1: happened to John Forrest Parker after he was sentenced to death, 40 00:02:51,876 --> 00:02:53,876 Speaker 1: and give you a meditation on a phrase from the 41 00:02:53,956 --> 00:02:56,716 Speaker 1: Jesuit priest James Keenan that I have come back too 42 00:02:56,716 --> 00:03:01,196 Speaker 1: many times sin. It's a failure to bother to care. 43 00:03:03,316 --> 00:03:06,156 Speaker 1: This is the story of someone who bothered to care 44 00:03:06,636 --> 00:03:11,836 Speaker 1: and someone else who couldn't be bothered at all. My 45 00:03:11,956 --> 00:03:16,116 Speaker 1: name is Malcolm Gladwell. This is the Alabama Murders, Episode four. 46 00:03:17,076 --> 00:03:29,636 Speaker 1: The protocol. In the time that you were doing ministry 47 00:03:29,676 --> 00:03:33,756 Speaker 1: at Donaldson, how many men that you were working with 48 00:03:34,076 --> 00:03:34,876 Speaker 1: got executed? 49 00:03:35,996 --> 00:03:43,636 Speaker 4: I believe I've been with thirteen, maybe twelve. 50 00:03:44,356 --> 00:03:47,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, Perry got involved working with people on death row 51 00:03:47,916 --> 00:03:49,676 Speaker 1: through a mentor of his. Ben. 52 00:03:49,716 --> 00:03:54,516 Speaker 4: Shehad like when I first went back, Big Ben Sheriff says, now, look, 53 00:03:55,756 --> 00:03:58,356 Speaker 4: if you come back here and you start coming and 54 00:03:58,436 --> 00:04:00,876 Speaker 4: these guys ask you to go all the way with them, 55 00:04:01,036 --> 00:04:02,876 Speaker 4: you got to be willing to go. And if you're not, 56 00:04:03,156 --> 00:04:06,076 Speaker 4: I understand, but don't come back. And I said, what's 57 00:04:06,116 --> 00:04:08,356 Speaker 4: all the way? He said, well, you know, bet, if 58 00:04:08,396 --> 00:04:12,116 Speaker 4: they're executed, if they have living family, they don't necessarily 59 00:04:12,156 --> 00:04:14,796 Speaker 4: want their family to watch them die or to be 60 00:04:14,836 --> 00:04:17,836 Speaker 4: their only member. But we need somebody there that loves them. 61 00:04:17,836 --> 00:04:19,876 Speaker 4: And if they ask you to be with them, you 62 00:04:19,956 --> 00:04:21,796 Speaker 4: need you can't. You need to be willing to go, 63 00:04:21,836 --> 00:04:25,076 Speaker 4: and if you're not, just don't come. And at the time, 64 00:04:25,156 --> 00:04:27,796 Speaker 4: we had had an execution in Alabama in a very 65 00:04:27,836 --> 00:04:31,196 Speaker 4: long time. And I said, sure, Well, you know I 66 00:04:31,196 --> 00:04:32,996 Speaker 4: didn't know what I was getting into. But I mean, 67 00:04:34,796 --> 00:04:39,236 Speaker 4: and like when I say at twelve or thirteen, Malcolm 68 00:04:39,276 --> 00:04:41,516 Speaker 4: ten or eleven of them, I was praying with their 69 00:04:41,556 --> 00:04:43,036 Speaker 4: families at the time they died. 70 00:04:43,476 --> 00:04:48,356 Speaker 1: What that's a hard thing to go through. Loose thirteen 71 00:04:48,636 --> 00:04:49,436 Speaker 1: thirteen men? 72 00:04:50,556 --> 00:04:57,556 Speaker 4: You like I want. I want to tell you the 73 00:04:57,596 --> 00:05:00,796 Speaker 4: honest to goodness true. I don't want to we joke. 74 00:05:00,876 --> 00:05:04,276 Speaker 4: He gally call it, you know, stupid Christians, but uh, 75 00:05:04,596 --> 00:05:07,436 Speaker 4: I don't. My one little witness I'll give you is 76 00:05:07,956 --> 00:05:13,676 Speaker 4: he gives you the now. When it's over, I usually 77 00:05:13,756 --> 00:05:18,236 Speaker 4: have need somebody to drive me home, But up until then, 78 00:05:19,236 --> 00:05:21,396 Speaker 4: you just have the strength to do it. But it's 79 00:05:21,476 --> 00:05:23,836 Speaker 4: so hard you wouldn't believe. And it affects you. 80 00:05:26,196 --> 00:05:29,916 Speaker 1: John Forest Parker was one of those thirteen and maybe 81 00:05:29,956 --> 00:05:31,436 Speaker 1: the one closest to his heart. 82 00:05:32,316 --> 00:05:35,956 Speaker 4: And no, man, I love John Parker. I sure do 83 00:05:36,076 --> 00:05:39,436 Speaker 4: miss it nuts. The only reservations I have about doing 84 00:05:39,476 --> 00:05:42,516 Speaker 4: this is you know that fifteen years it kind of 85 00:05:42,956 --> 00:05:44,596 Speaker 4: makes me miss him a little more. 86 00:05:48,156 --> 00:05:50,556 Speaker 1: The jury in John Parker's trial voted ten to two 87 00:05:50,676 --> 00:05:54,076 Speaker 1: for life without parole, but under Alabama lot at the time, 88 00:05:54,276 --> 00:05:57,716 Speaker 1: a judge was allowed to override a jury's recommendation, and 89 00:05:57,756 --> 00:06:02,116 Speaker 1: this is what the judge, INGA. Johnson did. Johnson sentenced 90 00:06:02,196 --> 00:06:05,716 Speaker 1: Parker to death in nineteen eighty nine. He was remanded 91 00:06:05,756 --> 00:06:09,676 Speaker 1: to Donaldson Prison and placed on death row four ourselves 92 00:06:09,996 --> 00:06:13,556 Speaker 1: in two blocks of twelve, and there Perry began to 93 00:06:13,636 --> 00:06:17,236 Speaker 1: visit him. Making the two hour drive from Demopolis to Donaldson. 94 00:06:17,996 --> 00:06:20,756 Speaker 1: Perry would go with his friend Ben Sherrid. A handful 95 00:06:20,756 --> 00:06:23,796 Speaker 1: of others would join them. When Perry first met Parker, 96 00:06:24,436 --> 00:06:25,836 Speaker 1: Parker wouldn't come out of his cell. 97 00:06:27,036 --> 00:06:30,516 Speaker 4: Sometimes we would take food, and if we took food, 98 00:06:30,596 --> 00:06:32,516 Speaker 4: John would come out to eat. You know, we had 99 00:06:32,596 --> 00:06:35,836 Speaker 4: really good food. But then his first chance, he'd go 100 00:06:35,876 --> 00:06:38,076 Speaker 4: back to his cell. But if we didn't have food, 101 00:06:38,156 --> 00:06:40,356 Speaker 4: John didn't come out. Well, of course we learn as 102 00:06:40,396 --> 00:06:43,876 Speaker 4: I developed my relationship with him. You know, Reverend Senate 103 00:06:44,636 --> 00:06:48,036 Speaker 4: is who hired them. So he did when you said 104 00:06:48,436 --> 00:06:52,876 Speaker 4: religion and preachers, and he wanted nothing to do with it, 105 00:06:52,956 --> 00:06:56,396 Speaker 4: because you know, he still equated that with Reverend Senate. 106 00:06:57,436 --> 00:07:00,356 Speaker 1: Then Perry met Parker's mother. He told her that her 107 00:07:00,356 --> 00:07:01,556 Speaker 1: son wouldn't leave his cell. 108 00:07:02,276 --> 00:07:04,356 Speaker 4: She said he didn't come out and said, no man, 109 00:07:04,916 --> 00:07:07,516 Speaker 4: She said, next month we went every month. She said, 110 00:07:07,516 --> 00:07:10,716 Speaker 4: you tell him his mama said better come out. So 111 00:07:10,796 --> 00:07:12,676 Speaker 4: I had and told him that. He said, I'll be there. 112 00:07:12,756 --> 00:07:15,716 Speaker 4: That he never missed. The next month, he never missed, 113 00:07:15,756 --> 00:07:17,876 Speaker 4: and he and I became very very good friends. And 114 00:07:18,556 --> 00:07:19,876 Speaker 4: he can find it a lot in me. 115 00:07:19,956 --> 00:07:21,596 Speaker 1: So what was he like? 116 00:07:24,316 --> 00:07:28,356 Speaker 4: Now you understand, Malcolm, I do believe that the Good 117 00:07:28,396 --> 00:07:35,556 Speaker 4: Lord changes people. John was very intelligent, very well read, 118 00:07:36,916 --> 00:07:42,516 Speaker 4: heck of a nice guy, just a wonderful person. He's 119 00:07:42,556 --> 00:07:44,276 Speaker 4: just the kind of guy you wanted to hang out with. 120 00:07:44,716 --> 00:07:47,396 Speaker 4: He told me. He said, you know, since then I've 121 00:07:47,436 --> 00:07:50,316 Speaker 4: come in here, I've learned to read better and write 122 00:07:50,396 --> 00:07:52,396 Speaker 4: better and do things better. 123 00:07:53,196 --> 00:07:56,236 Speaker 1: In prison, he was sober and off drugs for the 124 00:07:56,276 --> 00:07:57,676 Speaker 1: first time since he was twelve. 125 00:07:58,676 --> 00:08:02,236 Speaker 4: Spoke very open, with openly with me about his crime, 126 00:08:03,316 --> 00:08:08,676 Speaker 4: and I mean I remember one thing he said, and 127 00:08:08,756 --> 00:08:13,836 Speaker 4: he he was adam it with me. This was very 128 00:08:13,836 --> 00:08:16,796 Speaker 4: difficult for John because he knew they were going to 129 00:08:16,876 --> 00:08:22,316 Speaker 4: give him last words at his execution. And he said, 130 00:08:22,956 --> 00:08:25,996 Speaker 4: you know, I didn't kill miss Stennett. I said, yeah, 131 00:08:26,036 --> 00:08:29,316 Speaker 4: I know that, he said, but I was involved, and 132 00:08:30,156 --> 00:08:33,436 Speaker 4: that's a horrible thing I was involved in. And he said, 133 00:08:33,436 --> 00:08:36,596 Speaker 4: I've been in prison, probably not long enough. But he said, 134 00:08:36,596 --> 00:08:39,476 Speaker 4: but I didn't kill him, And he said, we snapped 135 00:08:39,476 --> 00:08:42,596 Speaker 4: out of it. You know, they told us that, you know, 136 00:08:42,716 --> 00:08:45,636 Speaker 4: Reverend Sennet came home and killed her. I don't know. 137 00:08:45,716 --> 00:08:51,836 Speaker 4: Are you aware of that? And he and he said, well, 138 00:08:51,876 --> 00:08:55,796 Speaker 4: I mean, he said, I remember hitting her. And it 139 00:08:55,916 --> 00:08:58,316 Speaker 4: was like a light bulb went off, like what the 140 00:08:58,316 --> 00:09:02,476 Speaker 4: hell are you doing? And he said, but that was horrible. 141 00:09:02,556 --> 00:09:05,476 Speaker 4: And I'm not sure I've been in prison long enough. 142 00:09:06,156 --> 00:09:12,036 Speaker 1: Yeah, And you said, was your were you was? Was 143 00:09:12,076 --> 00:09:15,916 Speaker 1: the ministry part of your visiting explicit? Or how much 144 00:09:15,956 --> 00:09:17,836 Speaker 1: of how much of this were you trying to bring 145 00:09:17,876 --> 00:09:19,436 Speaker 1: the message of Jesus to these men? 146 00:09:19,556 --> 00:09:24,396 Speaker 4: Or it was that was that was absolutely central? But 147 00:09:24,516 --> 00:09:31,476 Speaker 4: you gotta understand. I realized quickly that our ministry, more 148 00:09:31,516 --> 00:09:36,636 Speaker 4: important than any words, was a ministry at presence, the 149 00:09:36,796 --> 00:09:40,316 Speaker 4: fact that you showed up every time that prison would 150 00:09:40,356 --> 00:09:43,716 Speaker 4: let you. On the third Saturday, we'd go and they'd 151 00:09:43,796 --> 00:09:48,116 Speaker 4: let us stay two or three hours, but on twice 152 00:09:48,156 --> 00:09:51,316 Speaker 4: a year we would stay for three. We'd go in 153 00:09:51,516 --> 00:09:56,196 Speaker 4: on a Thursday evening, well, going on Friday morning, stay 154 00:09:56,276 --> 00:10:00,276 Speaker 4: all day, and then go on Saturdays, stay all day 155 00:10:00,356 --> 00:10:02,236 Speaker 4: and go on Sundays and that's called a three day 156 00:10:02,276 --> 00:10:05,636 Speaker 4: WEEKI and we would do that twice a year. 157 00:10:06,356 --> 00:10:09,076 Speaker 1: Tom, you, this is a commitment. 158 00:10:10,196 --> 00:10:13,276 Speaker 4: It was a tremendous commitment. But I talked to my 159 00:10:13,356 --> 00:10:15,716 Speaker 4: wife about it. I had young children at the time, 160 00:10:16,516 --> 00:10:18,956 Speaker 4: and my wife says, you know, look, I have to say, 161 00:10:18,996 --> 00:10:21,196 Speaker 4: it makes you a better person, a better day, and 162 00:10:21,356 --> 00:10:23,476 Speaker 4: a better husband. So go forward. 163 00:10:24,836 --> 00:10:28,156 Speaker 1: Their visits went on for twenty three years as Parker's 164 00:10:28,196 --> 00:10:31,876 Speaker 1: appeals wound their way through the legal system. Finally, his 165 00:10:31,996 --> 00:10:36,116 Speaker 1: execution date was set six pm June tenth, twenty ten. 166 00:10:38,236 --> 00:10:40,996 Speaker 1: Parker was moved to home in prison in Atmore, in 167 00:10:41,076 --> 00:10:44,116 Speaker 1: the far south of the state, near Mobile. That's where 168 00:10:44,156 --> 00:10:47,796 Speaker 1: the state's execution chamber is. He was put in a 169 00:10:47,836 --> 00:10:50,836 Speaker 1: special holding cell. In the days letting up to his execution, 170 00:10:52,356 --> 00:10:55,596 Speaker 1: he filed two last appeals in his final week to 171 00:10:55,636 --> 00:10:58,876 Speaker 1: the Alabama Supreme Court and then the US Supreme Court. 172 00:10:59,676 --> 00:11:03,956 Speaker 1: Both failed. On his last day, he skipped breakfast, but 173 00:11:04,036 --> 00:11:07,276 Speaker 1: chose a dinner of fried fish, French fries, and iced tea. 174 00:11:08,116 --> 00:11:11,836 Speaker 1: He gave his mother his gold watch, a mirror, seven stamps, 175 00:11:11,876 --> 00:11:14,716 Speaker 1: and a box of pictures. He gave his two nephews, 176 00:11:14,756 --> 00:11:19,236 Speaker 1: his belt, and his wallet. He died by lethal injection 177 00:11:19,716 --> 00:11:29,996 Speaker 1: at six forty one pm. Tom Perry was there with him. 178 00:11:27,796 --> 00:11:31,196 Speaker 4: And then you know, he was finally gone. But then 179 00:11:33,076 --> 00:11:36,316 Speaker 4: after that, I have to get back on that van 180 00:11:36,796 --> 00:11:38,916 Speaker 4: and I go back to the hotel where about the 181 00:11:38,996 --> 00:11:44,276 Speaker 4: other people had been in there praying with his family, 182 00:11:44,676 --> 00:11:46,196 Speaker 4: and I have to go in and tell him, you know, 183 00:11:46,316 --> 00:11:50,236 Speaker 4: John's gone. He was peaceful, he didn't appear to suffer. 184 00:11:54,236 --> 00:12:12,156 Speaker 1: He didn't appear to suffer. We'll be right back. To 185 00:12:12,276 --> 00:12:15,996 Speaker 1: understand the particulars of John Parker's execution, you have to 186 00:12:16,036 --> 00:12:19,996 Speaker 1: go back to nineteen seventy seven in Oklahoma City. In 187 00:12:20,036 --> 00:12:23,276 Speaker 1: the mid seventies, the Supreme Court had just lifted a 188 00:12:23,356 --> 00:12:27,436 Speaker 1: long moratorium on capital punishment. The court had been concerned 189 00:12:27,476 --> 00:12:31,916 Speaker 1: that existing methods like the electric chair violated the constitutional 190 00:12:31,956 --> 00:12:36,836 Speaker 1: prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment. Watching someone die on 191 00:12:36,876 --> 00:12:40,356 Speaker 1: the electric chair was like watching a horror movie. Public 192 00:12:40,396 --> 00:12:44,356 Speaker 1: scrutiny was high. The court said that states could only 193 00:12:44,396 --> 00:12:46,876 Speaker 1: bring back the death penalty if they found a more 194 00:12:46,956 --> 00:12:50,716 Speaker 1: socially acceptable and legally rigorous way of applying it. 195 00:12:51,916 --> 00:12:55,876 Speaker 5: So at that point, there were several things going on 196 00:12:55,956 --> 00:12:59,156 Speaker 5: First of all, there were journalists who were threatening to 197 00:13:00,116 --> 00:13:03,716 Speaker 5: litigate so that they could see the next execution, and 198 00:13:03,756 --> 00:13:07,276 Speaker 5: Oklahoma and other states such as Texas were very concerned 199 00:13:07,316 --> 00:13:11,916 Speaker 5: about that. They thought they these executions would be videotaped 200 00:13:12,316 --> 00:13:13,596 Speaker 5: and displayed to the world. 201 00:13:14,316 --> 00:13:17,436 Speaker 1: This is Deborah Deno, who teaches law at Fordham University 202 00:13:17,476 --> 00:13:19,436 Speaker 1: in New York City and is one of the countries 203 00:13:19,676 --> 00:13:21,836 Speaker 1: leading legal experts on capital punishment. 204 00:13:22,476 --> 00:13:26,556 Speaker 5: Number two Ronald Reagan, then Governor Ronald Reagan a few 205 00:13:26,636 --> 00:13:31,116 Speaker 5: years earlier, had sort of made a pronouncement of why 206 00:13:31,196 --> 00:13:34,316 Speaker 5: don't we just execute inmates the way we put horses down? 207 00:13:34,876 --> 00:13:38,076 Speaker 1: In case you're wondering, this is what Reagan said. Being 208 00:13:38,116 --> 00:13:40,876 Speaker 1: a former farmer and horse razer, I know what it's 209 00:13:40,956 --> 00:13:43,916 Speaker 1: like to try to eliminate an injured horse by shooting him. 210 00:13:44,356 --> 00:13:47,196 Speaker 1: Now you call the veterinarian, and the vet gives it 211 00:13:47,236 --> 00:13:50,116 Speaker 1: a shot, and the horse goes to sleep. That's it, 212 00:13:50,956 --> 00:13:51,196 Speaker 1: you know. 213 00:13:51,796 --> 00:13:54,116 Speaker 5: I think there was a pressure to have a method 214 00:13:54,116 --> 00:13:58,476 Speaker 5: that looked more humane than electrocution and lethal gas. Those 215 00:13:58,516 --> 00:14:01,756 Speaker 5: were the pressures that that was on the state. 216 00:14:02,316 --> 00:14:06,436 Speaker 1: So from the beginning, you know, these are states terrified 217 00:14:06,476 --> 00:14:10,836 Speaker 1: of journalists being able to videotape what's happening, So their 218 00:14:10,876 --> 00:14:14,396 Speaker 1: concern is really with what this looks like to the world. 219 00:14:14,676 --> 00:14:19,796 Speaker 5: That's right the perception world, Yes, absolutely. 220 00:14:20,716 --> 00:14:20,796 Speaker 4: So. 221 00:14:21,476 --> 00:14:25,796 Speaker 1: Oklahoma City, nineteen seventy seven, a state senator named Bill 222 00:14:25,836 --> 00:14:29,356 Speaker 1: Wiseman takes up the court's challenge. He wants to find 223 00:14:29,396 --> 00:14:32,396 Speaker 1: a way to make capital punishment more humane, and one 224 00:14:32,476 --> 00:14:35,036 Speaker 1: day he gets a call from the Oklahoma State Medical 225 00:14:35,076 --> 00:14:39,676 Speaker 1: Examiner AJ Chapman, who has heard about Wiseman's crusade and 226 00:14:39,756 --> 00:14:44,036 Speaker 1: has an idea. He gives Wiseman a rough outline for 227 00:14:44,116 --> 00:14:47,276 Speaker 1: what would come to be known as lethal injection, two 228 00:14:47,396 --> 00:14:51,996 Speaker 1: drugs in sequence. First a sedative like a barbituate to 229 00:14:52,036 --> 00:14:55,436 Speaker 1: put the prisoner to sleep, then a paralytic something to 230 00:14:55,476 --> 00:15:00,916 Speaker 1: immobilize them. Later, Chapman added a third drug, potassium chloride, 231 00:15:01,036 --> 00:15:04,276 Speaker 1: which is the main ingredient in chemical fertilizer and which 232 00:15:04,396 --> 00:15:08,716 Speaker 1: in elevated doses causes hyperkalemia, which is like flipping the 233 00:15:08,756 --> 00:15:12,796 Speaker 1: powers switch on your heart. Wiseman took Chapman's idea and 234 00:15:12,876 --> 00:15:16,676 Speaker 1: put it before the Oklahoma State Legislature. It passed by 235 00:15:16,716 --> 00:15:20,636 Speaker 1: an overwhelming margin. I'm reading now from an editorial in 236 00:15:20,716 --> 00:15:25,516 Speaker 1: the Vista the student newspaper at Central State University in Oklahoma. 237 00:15:26,516 --> 00:15:30,196 Speaker 1: Lethal injection is not only less traumatic on the prisoner, 238 00:15:30,476 --> 00:15:33,516 Speaker 1: but it would also be easier on witnesses, for they 239 00:15:33,556 --> 00:15:37,316 Speaker 1: would not have to endure the grizzly site of roasting flesh, 240 00:15:37,676 --> 00:15:46,716 Speaker 1: bulging eyeballs, or squirting blood. But Chapman's protocol was never tested. 241 00:15:47,276 --> 00:15:49,716 Speaker 1: I mean, how could you test it. You're trying to 242 00:15:49,796 --> 00:15:54,396 Speaker 1: kill someone. Everyone you would experiment on would die as 243 00:15:54,436 --> 00:15:58,236 Speaker 1: a result. No one really knew how it worked. In 244 00:15:58,236 --> 00:16:02,436 Speaker 1: his memoirs, published years later, Chapman argued that knowing the 245 00:16:02,476 --> 00:16:06,796 Speaker 1: precise method of action didn't matter, since quote, the properties 246 00:16:06,836 --> 00:16:10,396 Speaker 1: of the drugs were extremely well known. The three drug 247 00:16:10,436 --> 00:16:13,476 Speaker 1: combination was just a variation on a protocol that was 248 00:16:13,516 --> 00:16:17,476 Speaker 1: being used for anesthesia every day in hospitals all around 249 00:16:17,516 --> 00:16:24,116 Speaker 1: the world. But of course that isn't quite true, is it. 250 00:16:24,116 --> 00:16:27,036 Speaker 1: It's not the same procedure that's used for medical anesthesia, 251 00:16:27,436 --> 00:16:30,636 Speaker 1: because the intention of medical anesthesia is to keep the 252 00:16:30,636 --> 00:16:34,636 Speaker 1: patient alive, and the intention of lethal injection is to 253 00:16:34,676 --> 00:16:37,836 Speaker 1: give those same drugs in doses so large that the 254 00:16:37,916 --> 00:16:44,476 Speaker 1: patient dies. That's actually totally different. Did Chapman how much 255 00:16:44,516 --> 00:16:49,676 Speaker 1: thought did he put into this three drug protocol. 256 00:16:49,516 --> 00:16:51,636 Speaker 5: You know, I mean that's a question for him. I 257 00:16:51,676 --> 00:16:53,676 Speaker 5: do know that they came up with this in the 258 00:16:53,676 --> 00:16:54,836 Speaker 5: course of an afternoon. 259 00:16:56,916 --> 00:16:59,236 Speaker 1: We reached out to Chapman for an interview, but he 260 00:16:59,316 --> 00:17:03,476 Speaker 1: declined to talk to us. The Oklahoma protocol would become 261 00:17:03,516 --> 00:17:07,316 Speaker 1: the method of choice in thirty other American states. It's 262 00:17:07,356 --> 00:17:10,916 Speaker 1: even with a minor variation what countries like Canada use 263 00:17:10,956 --> 00:17:16,516 Speaker 1: today for euthanasia. But how exactly does it work? I 264 00:17:16,556 --> 00:17:18,796 Speaker 1: know this seems like a pedantic point, but it is 265 00:17:18,876 --> 00:17:21,876 Speaker 1: the settled position of the United States, in fact of 266 00:17:21,956 --> 00:17:24,596 Speaker 1: most of the world that a mark of a civilized 267 00:17:24,636 --> 00:17:29,676 Speaker 1: society is that its punishment is humane. You can't torture people. 268 00:17:30,396 --> 00:17:32,916 Speaker 1: Even if you've decided to kill a prisoner, you have 269 00:17:32,996 --> 00:17:36,836 Speaker 1: to do it the right way. So, once again, how 270 00:17:36,876 --> 00:17:38,716 Speaker 1: does lethal injection kill people? 271 00:17:39,876 --> 00:17:43,756 Speaker 6: So I was given a stack of autopsies of prisoners 272 00:17:44,396 --> 00:17:46,756 Speaker 6: executed and here in the state of Georgia. 273 00:17:47,556 --> 00:17:52,516 Speaker 1: Joel Zivitt, an anisesiologist at Emory University in Georgia. 274 00:17:52,796 --> 00:17:59,276 Speaker 6: There's an automatic autopsy that was that's performed on these prisoners. Interestingly, 275 00:17:59,396 --> 00:18:01,916 Speaker 6: by the way, the cause of death that's written on 276 00:18:01,956 --> 00:18:04,476 Speaker 6: the death centerficate is homicide. 277 00:18:05,076 --> 00:18:08,756 Speaker 1: Because he's an anestesiologist, and lethal injection is basically the 278 00:18:08,796 --> 00:18:12,756 Speaker 1: homae subtle version of anesthesiology. As if it was approached 279 00:18:12,756 --> 00:18:15,236 Speaker 1: by a group of lawyers who had a client on 280 00:18:15,316 --> 00:18:18,796 Speaker 1: death row. They had a technical question, could he tell 281 00:18:18,956 --> 00:18:21,796 Speaker 1: from looking at the blood work of executed prisoners whether 282 00:18:21,836 --> 00:18:25,236 Speaker 1: they were conscious at the point of death. The operating 283 00:18:25,236 --> 00:18:29,636 Speaker 1: assumption behind lethal injection was that they were unconscious, that 284 00:18:29,636 --> 00:18:33,356 Speaker 1: they would be fully anesthetized when the potassium chloride hit 285 00:18:33,396 --> 00:18:35,956 Speaker 1: their heart. But did we know that for a fact? 286 00:18:36,636 --> 00:18:39,756 Speaker 6: So I just I read the autopsy, read the first 287 00:18:39,796 --> 00:18:42,556 Speaker 6: autopsy and kind of was going through it and saw 288 00:18:42,756 --> 00:18:48,516 Speaker 6: this finding that was surprising, which was that in this 289 00:18:48,596 --> 00:18:52,436 Speaker 6: first one that I read that the lungs were what's 290 00:18:52,476 --> 00:18:53,996 Speaker 6: called heavy. 291 00:18:54,036 --> 00:18:56,156 Speaker 1: This had nothing to do with the question he'd been 292 00:18:56,156 --> 00:18:59,236 Speaker 1: asked to answer. It was completely unexpected. 293 00:18:59,796 --> 00:19:02,156 Speaker 6: As part of an autopsy, the lungs are removed from 294 00:19:02,156 --> 00:19:04,956 Speaker 6: the body and just flopped on a scale. And all 295 00:19:04,996 --> 00:19:08,876 Speaker 6: these lungs were heavy. Why were they heavy? They were 296 00:19:08,876 --> 00:19:14,436 Speaker 6: heavy because they were full of bloody, frothy fluid. And 297 00:19:14,916 --> 00:19:19,076 Speaker 6: this bloody, frothy fluid could not have gotten into the 298 00:19:19,156 --> 00:19:20,316 Speaker 6: lungs after death. 299 00:19:21,516 --> 00:19:24,396 Speaker 1: If you're dead, your heart has stopped working, so there's 300 00:19:24,436 --> 00:19:26,676 Speaker 1: no way for fluid to get pumped into your lungs. 301 00:19:27,316 --> 00:19:30,156 Speaker 1: It had to have happened while the prisoner was still alive. 302 00:19:33,756 --> 00:19:36,876 Speaker 6: And what was assumed, I think by me and others 303 00:19:36,916 --> 00:19:39,436 Speaker 6: I hadn't really thought about it was that the body 304 00:19:39,476 --> 00:19:42,756 Speaker 6: would be essentially Christine, you know, there wouldn't be this 305 00:19:42,916 --> 00:19:48,196 Speaker 6: kind of destruction of organs within the body. But when 306 00:19:48,196 --> 00:19:50,556 Speaker 6: I went through the whole list, almost eighty percent of 307 00:19:50,636 --> 00:19:53,556 Speaker 6: the time, so eight out of ten times, there was 308 00:19:53,596 --> 00:19:57,156 Speaker 6: this finding of this frothy, bloody fluid. So you could 309 00:19:57,236 --> 00:20:00,396 Speaker 6: cut into the windpipe and the fluid would be just 310 00:20:00,476 --> 00:20:03,316 Speaker 6: frothing right in there without being pardon me, too graphic. 311 00:20:04,076 --> 00:20:07,076 Speaker 6: So the question then was how did it get in there? 312 00:20:07,796 --> 00:20:11,116 Speaker 6: I conferred with a lithologist colleague of mind. We kind 313 00:20:11,116 --> 00:20:13,996 Speaker 6: of puzzled over this for a while, and it occurred 314 00:20:14,036 --> 00:20:16,236 Speaker 6: to us that you know, what we think, what I 315 00:20:16,316 --> 00:20:20,316 Speaker 6: think is that it's actually the way the penta barbitol 316 00:20:20,836 --> 00:20:21,556 Speaker 6: is prepared. 317 00:20:22,436 --> 00:20:25,196 Speaker 1: Pent To barbitol is the first of the drugs used 318 00:20:25,236 --> 00:20:29,556 Speaker 1: in the fatal injection protocol. It's the sedative and it 319 00:20:29,556 --> 00:20:30,996 Speaker 1: has a high pH. 320 00:20:31,916 --> 00:20:35,516 Speaker 6: This is sort of basic chemistry. The pH scale goes 321 00:20:35,596 --> 00:20:40,236 Speaker 6: from one to fourteen. Seven is neutral. The other thing 322 00:20:40,276 --> 00:20:42,996 Speaker 6: important to know about the pH scale is that it's 323 00:20:42,996 --> 00:20:45,756 Speaker 6: a log scale, so it means that every time you 324 00:20:45,836 --> 00:20:48,916 Speaker 6: move one number, you're going up by a factor of ten. 325 00:20:49,956 --> 00:20:53,396 Speaker 6: You know, for a reference, the Richter scale of earthquakes 326 00:20:53,596 --> 00:20:56,356 Speaker 6: is also a log scale. That's why an earthquake of 327 00:20:56,396 --> 00:20:58,636 Speaker 6: four and a half, you know, you kind of you know, 328 00:20:58,716 --> 00:21:01,676 Speaker 6: will maybe shuffle the ground underneath you, but an earthquake 329 00:21:01,716 --> 00:21:04,116 Speaker 6: of eight and a half will split the world in half. 330 00:21:04,316 --> 00:21:06,396 Speaker 6: So it's a huge, powerful difference. 331 00:21:07,436 --> 00:21:11,116 Speaker 1: The body's normal pH is between seven point three five 332 00:21:11,676 --> 00:21:14,796 Speaker 1: and seven point four to five. If you drop below 333 00:21:14,876 --> 00:21:20,276 Speaker 1: seven or rise above eight, you'll probably die. The pen 334 00:21:20,356 --> 00:21:24,116 Speaker 1: to barbitol is between nine and eleven. Now, when pent 335 00:21:24,196 --> 00:21:27,436 Speaker 1: to barbitel is used in ordinary medicine, this fact doesn't 336 00:21:27,476 --> 00:21:31,156 Speaker 1: matter that much. The dose is pretty small. It burns 337 00:21:31,196 --> 00:21:33,236 Speaker 1: a little, but the body compensates. 338 00:21:35,076 --> 00:21:38,836 Speaker 6: But now imagine giving ten times that quantity and pushing 339 00:21:38,836 --> 00:21:43,556 Speaker 6: it into a small vein. It travels rapidly to the heart, 340 00:21:43,636 --> 00:21:46,796 Speaker 6: where the heart comps it immediately into the lungs, and 341 00:21:46,876 --> 00:21:50,556 Speaker 6: it tears the lungs apart. Basically, they get burned from 342 00:21:50,556 --> 00:21:54,676 Speaker 6: the inside and then the separation of air and blood. 343 00:21:55,516 --> 00:21:59,036 Speaker 6: There's a very fine layer of tissue there that gets 344 00:21:59,196 --> 00:22:03,996 Speaker 6: destroyed and the blood just pours into the lungs. And 345 00:22:04,116 --> 00:22:08,356 Speaker 6: I'm sorry as I'm saying this, it's awful, and this 346 00:22:08,556 --> 00:22:12,156 Speaker 6: is what this is how lethal injection actually kills you. 347 00:22:12,596 --> 00:22:16,716 Speaker 6: It kills you by burning your lungs up, and you're 348 00:22:16,756 --> 00:22:21,356 Speaker 6: also paralyzed, so you can't complain that this is happening. 349 00:22:22,236 --> 00:22:24,156 Speaker 6: And then to finish you off, of course, you know 350 00:22:24,196 --> 00:22:27,876 Speaker 6: you're probably begging for the potassium at that point, because 351 00:22:27,916 --> 00:22:32,916 Speaker 6: that finally stops your heart and stops this process. But 352 00:22:32,956 --> 00:22:35,796 Speaker 6: in the meantime, you know this has been gone on 353 00:22:35,916 --> 00:22:40,196 Speaker 6: for a few minutes, so the last thing that you know, 354 00:22:40,276 --> 00:22:43,156 Speaker 6: you may know, is that you're on fire from the 355 00:22:43,196 --> 00:22:46,876 Speaker 6: inside and the blood is filling up your lungs as 356 00:22:46,916 --> 00:22:50,716 Speaker 6: you die. Is this too graphic? 357 00:22:52,516 --> 00:22:55,756 Speaker 1: Of course it is, But that's the point, because the 358 00:22:55,796 --> 00:22:59,076 Speaker 1: reason lethal injections started in the first place was it 359 00:22:59,116 --> 00:23:01,756 Speaker 1: Even the proponents of the death penalty were eager to 360 00:23:01,796 --> 00:23:05,556 Speaker 1: find a method that was humane, that didn't involve fixing 361 00:23:05,676 --> 00:23:08,836 Speaker 1: metal plates to someone's head and frying their brains with 362 00:23:08,876 --> 00:23:12,756 Speaker 1: a of electricity, and Zevit's point is that this is 363 00:23:12,796 --> 00:23:16,916 Speaker 1: not actually more humane, it just looks that way. Death 364 00:23:16,956 --> 00:23:21,996 Speaker 1: penalty advocates were trying to satisfy the constitutional prohibition against 365 00:23:21,996 --> 00:23:26,316 Speaker 1: cruel and unusual punishment, but their innovation only spared the 366 00:23:26,316 --> 00:23:30,596 Speaker 1: suffering of the witnesses to an execution, not the subject 367 00:23:30,716 --> 00:23:34,516 Speaker 1: of the execution. The whole thing was an illusion. But 368 00:23:34,596 --> 00:23:37,836 Speaker 1: even that's not the issue. The real issue is that 369 00:23:37,876 --> 00:23:41,316 Speaker 1: the lethal injection protocol was dreamt up on the back 370 00:23:41,356 --> 00:23:44,756 Speaker 1: of an envelope, and until joel' vivid came along by 371 00:23:44,836 --> 00:23:49,116 Speaker 1: accident fifty years later, none of the people who championed 372 00:23:49,196 --> 00:23:52,316 Speaker 1: lethal injection could get around to wondering just how their 373 00:23:52,356 --> 00:23:56,476 Speaker 1: preferred method worked. And it's not like the evidence wasn't available. 374 00:23:57,556 --> 00:24:01,396 Speaker 1: In many states, there's an autopsy on everyone who's executed. 375 00:24:02,076 --> 00:24:05,716 Speaker 1: The autopsies were just sitting there in a drawer somewhere, 376 00:24:06,076 --> 00:24:09,876 Speaker 1: hundreds of them, and in almost every case they were 377 00:24:09,956 --> 00:24:15,516 Speaker 1: characterized by the same inexplicable finding. Here's what I don't understand. 378 00:24:15,876 --> 00:24:17,556 Speaker 1: Nobody noticed this till you. 379 00:24:19,196 --> 00:24:19,876 Speaker 6: Apparently not. 380 00:24:21,236 --> 00:24:22,916 Speaker 1: Isn't that astonishing. 381 00:24:24,436 --> 00:24:25,116 Speaker 6: Astonishing? 382 00:24:25,916 --> 00:24:27,396 Speaker 4: Well, I don't know. 383 00:24:27,556 --> 00:24:30,076 Speaker 6: I made a guess though, you know, I guess it's astonishing, 384 00:24:30,156 --> 00:24:33,116 Speaker 6: but you know what you have to be. You have 385 00:24:33,156 --> 00:24:38,676 Speaker 6: to be curious, I suppose, or care or or I mean, 386 00:24:38,876 --> 00:24:40,956 Speaker 6: what's astonishing to me is the fact that it was 387 00:24:41,036 --> 00:24:45,996 Speaker 6: noticed every time by pathologists. No one said anything. It's 388 00:24:46,036 --> 00:24:49,436 Speaker 6: not like a pathologist said, wow, look at this finding 389 00:24:49,476 --> 00:24:52,156 Speaker 6: and brought it to that I'm aware of, like when 390 00:24:52,156 --> 00:24:56,156 Speaker 6: I first had the In my job as an antecycologist intentivist, 391 00:24:56,476 --> 00:24:58,436 Speaker 6: I look at autopsies, but I don't, you know, it's 392 00:24:58,476 --> 00:25:01,116 Speaker 6: not I don't make a living at autopsies. So to 393 00:25:01,156 --> 00:25:02,716 Speaker 6: be sure that I was seeing what I thought I 394 00:25:02,756 --> 00:25:05,556 Speaker 6: was seeing, I sent it to my colleague of mine, 395 00:25:05,636 --> 00:25:10,276 Speaker 6: Mark Edgar, who's a pathologist. I said, look, I've got 396 00:25:10,276 --> 00:25:13,476 Speaker 6: this list. I'm not telling you what this is, okay, 397 00:25:13,996 --> 00:25:16,356 Speaker 6: just tell me what you see, you know, what do 398 00:25:16,396 --> 00:25:19,596 Speaker 6: you see? And and he came back and said, well, 399 00:25:19,676 --> 00:25:21,396 Speaker 6: all these you know, that's all these heavy lungs, like 400 00:25:21,396 --> 00:25:23,516 Speaker 6: there's all this pompiliar demail, Like what what is that? 401 00:25:23,676 --> 00:25:28,876 Speaker 6: Like he saw it immediately without prompture, Like believe is 402 00:25:28,916 --> 00:25:33,996 Speaker 6: evidence free, right, So the people who believe this, you know, 403 00:25:34,156 --> 00:25:38,036 Speaker 6: were immune to evidence or immune to. You know, I 404 00:25:38,076 --> 00:25:43,996 Speaker 6: don't know an impartial appraisal, so and I was surprised. 405 00:25:44,156 --> 00:25:46,916 Speaker 6: I was. I just didn't think of it. 406 00:25:46,956 --> 00:25:47,116 Speaker 7: You know. 407 00:25:47,156 --> 00:25:51,236 Speaker 6: It's like the failure of imagination, where you just couldn't 408 00:25:51,236 --> 00:25:55,036 Speaker 6: imagine it. But now that it's been seen, of course, 409 00:25:55,076 --> 00:25:56,276 Speaker 6: you can't unsee it. 410 00:25:58,716 --> 00:26:02,836 Speaker 1: Zivitt wrote an academic article describing his findings, thinking he 411 00:26:02,916 --> 00:26:04,756 Speaker 1: had to share what he'd found with the world. 412 00:26:05,756 --> 00:26:10,516 Speaker 6: I've had trouble getting this published. So it's now available 413 00:26:10,556 --> 00:26:14,236 Speaker 6: as something called a pre print, so it's easy to 414 00:26:14,276 --> 00:26:18,156 Speaker 6: find as a pre print, and it goes over this. 415 00:26:19,236 --> 00:26:22,316 Speaker 1: I certainly, why have you had trouble getting it published? 416 00:26:22,636 --> 00:26:25,516 Speaker 6: Because people don't want to publish it. You know, it's 417 00:26:25,596 --> 00:26:30,076 Speaker 6: like it's something that I can't place. You know, it's 418 00:26:30,156 --> 00:26:34,116 Speaker 6: so I don't know, grizzly unusual that put it in 419 00:26:34,156 --> 00:26:37,116 Speaker 6: the medical journal, you know, it just doesn't can't seem 420 00:26:37,156 --> 00:26:39,636 Speaker 6: to find the journal for it. 421 00:26:41,796 --> 00:26:44,036 Speaker 1: We are now at the second stage of the failure 422 00:26:44,076 --> 00:27:00,156 Speaker 1: cascade indifference. We'll be right back. Let us tell the 423 00:27:00,236 --> 00:27:04,596 Speaker 1: story of John Parker's execution a second time. Tom Perry 424 00:27:04,636 --> 00:27:07,116 Speaker 1: was there. Remember he pledged that he was willing to 425 00:27:07,156 --> 00:27:07,996 Speaker 1: go all the way. 426 00:27:09,156 --> 00:27:12,916 Speaker 4: Section day you know. We started. We went in early 427 00:27:12,956 --> 00:27:17,796 Speaker 4: that I think John was executed around six. But we 428 00:27:17,916 --> 00:27:24,196 Speaker 4: go in and it's just a good day. John's family 429 00:27:24,316 --> 00:27:26,916 Speaker 4: was close to us. We tell the family any time 430 00:27:27,676 --> 00:27:29,876 Speaker 4: you need a minute, and you don't want us here. 431 00:27:29,916 --> 00:27:32,596 Speaker 4: It's probably about five or six of us. I think 432 00:27:32,636 --> 00:27:35,996 Speaker 4: they limit the room to fifteen people. On the visting 433 00:27:36,076 --> 00:27:38,556 Speaker 4: we caught the visiting yard, but it's just a little room. 434 00:27:38,916 --> 00:27:41,996 Speaker 4: In fact, my Christian community air conditioned and put in 435 00:27:42,076 --> 00:27:45,676 Speaker 4: new chairs because it was so uncomfortable. It was these 436 00:27:45,716 --> 00:27:50,316 Speaker 4: big metal picnic tables of these little round metal benches 437 00:27:50,356 --> 00:27:53,996 Speaker 4: that were just tortured. We bought some chairs and tables 438 00:27:54,316 --> 00:27:57,396 Speaker 4: and put air conditioning in, you know, so the inmates 439 00:27:57,436 --> 00:28:00,716 Speaker 4: can have some comfortable They visit, but we just visit. 440 00:28:01,436 --> 00:28:03,356 Speaker 4: We sing a little bit, then they say we're getting 441 00:28:03,356 --> 00:28:05,756 Speaker 4: two louds, so we have to quit singing. But we 442 00:28:05,956 --> 00:28:08,196 Speaker 4: just talk and visit and get to know some of 443 00:28:08,276 --> 00:28:12,396 Speaker 4: John's family that we had not met before. So John 444 00:28:12,436 --> 00:28:16,036 Speaker 4: and anybody else can have a soft drink anything they want. 445 00:28:16,356 --> 00:28:19,276 Speaker 4: One thing I will tell you that I think goes unsaid. 446 00:28:20,196 --> 00:28:25,556 Speaker 4: The death squad, the officers that perform it and act more. 447 00:28:25,956 --> 00:28:31,316 Speaker 4: They do everything in their power to make it as dignified. 448 00:28:32,876 --> 00:28:35,636 Speaker 4: Anything they could do for John and any of the 449 00:28:35,676 --> 00:28:39,076 Speaker 4: twelve or thirteen I've been with, within reason, they would 450 00:28:39,076 --> 00:28:42,956 Speaker 4: do to make that last day as good as they 451 00:28:42,996 --> 00:28:46,316 Speaker 4: could for the inmate. They don't get enough credit for that. 452 00:28:46,516 --> 00:28:49,316 Speaker 4: I mean, there's certain rules they can't break, but anything 453 00:28:49,396 --> 00:28:52,036 Speaker 4: they do within reason they do it. But anyway, so 454 00:28:52,076 --> 00:28:55,596 Speaker 4: we go, and then you can tell when the clock 455 00:28:55,676 --> 00:29:00,436 Speaker 4: starts getting and we'll have, you know, we'll do some 456 00:29:00,556 --> 00:29:02,876 Speaker 4: serious praying and then we will call it circle up. 457 00:29:02,916 --> 00:29:05,276 Speaker 4: That's something we would do on our weekends. Before we leave. 458 00:29:05,836 --> 00:29:09,596 Speaker 4: We make a big circle and we pray out for 459 00:29:09,756 --> 00:29:13,276 Speaker 4: you for me with the song. Surely the presence, Surely 460 00:29:13,756 --> 00:29:17,356 Speaker 4: the presence of the Lord is in this place. I 461 00:29:17,436 --> 00:29:22,916 Speaker 4: can feel his mighty power and his grave. You know, 462 00:29:22,956 --> 00:29:25,916 Speaker 4: I can hear the brush of angels wings, I see 463 00:29:25,956 --> 00:29:30,756 Speaker 4: glory on each face. Surely the presence of the Lord. 464 00:29:33,676 --> 00:29:37,076 Speaker 1: They sang that a couple of times together for a prayer. 465 00:29:37,756 --> 00:29:39,836 Speaker 1: Then they made their way to the execution chamber. 466 00:29:40,516 --> 00:29:43,596 Speaker 4: We're over here, and the Senate family's over there, and 467 00:29:43,676 --> 00:29:46,316 Speaker 4: John's in the middle, and there's glass and I can 468 00:29:46,396 --> 00:29:49,356 Speaker 4: see them, but I can't hear them and they can 469 00:29:49,396 --> 00:29:53,916 Speaker 4: see me and John's in the middle, and you know, 470 00:29:53,956 --> 00:29:56,316 Speaker 4: and then he looks up at me, you know, and 471 00:29:56,436 --> 00:30:00,516 Speaker 4: he says, you know, I love you, brother, and I 472 00:30:00,596 --> 00:30:03,716 Speaker 4: thank you for everything you did for me, and you know, 473 00:30:03,836 --> 00:30:06,236 Speaker 4: take care of my mom and dad. I promised him 474 00:30:06,276 --> 00:30:13,516 Speaker 4: I would continue to communicate and follow up with him. 475 00:30:08,636 --> 00:30:08,716 Speaker 7: And. 476 00:30:11,156 --> 00:30:13,916 Speaker 4: And then he says, with the Senate family, I'm sorry 477 00:30:13,956 --> 00:30:17,436 Speaker 4: I got involved in this situation a hundred times. I 478 00:30:17,436 --> 00:30:20,396 Speaker 4: wish they're gonna taken him back. I was strong out, 479 00:30:20,476 --> 00:30:22,516 Speaker 4: I was young, and I was stupid, and I hope 480 00:30:22,596 --> 00:30:25,716 Speaker 4: that you know, what happens today can give you, you know, 481 00:30:25,876 --> 00:30:30,836 Speaker 4: some peace. And then when they started, you know, he 482 00:30:30,916 --> 00:30:33,716 Speaker 4: was a lethal injection and he rolled his hand that 483 00:30:33,716 --> 00:30:36,076 Speaker 4: that's sort of a symbol. We get to hang with him, 484 00:30:36,076 --> 00:30:37,636 Speaker 4: but when we split up, they won't let me more 485 00:30:37,636 --> 00:30:40,876 Speaker 4: physical contact. When we leave, and as we go, we 486 00:30:40,876 --> 00:30:42,916 Speaker 4: you know, that was our that was our deal. It 487 00:30:42,956 --> 00:30:46,716 Speaker 4: means I love you, So that was our sign. And Cairos, 488 00:30:46,756 --> 00:30:49,476 Speaker 4: you know, I love you brother. He rolled his hands 489 00:30:49,556 --> 00:30:52,116 Speaker 4: up on there and did that, and then you know, 490 00:30:52,356 --> 00:30:55,716 Speaker 4: I watched his uh bottom jaw. I remember it just 491 00:30:55,756 --> 00:30:59,116 Speaker 4: seeing it start quivering and it, and you know it was. 492 00:30:59,236 --> 00:31:01,116 Speaker 4: It takes a lot longer than you think. 493 00:31:04,596 --> 00:31:09,716 Speaker 1: Yes, it does take a lot longer than you think. First, 494 00:31:10,116 --> 00:31:13,676 Speaker 1: one hundred milli leaders of a sedative. After the sedative, 495 00:31:13,996 --> 00:31:18,556 Speaker 1: Alabama's regulations require that quote, the team member position at 496 00:31:18,556 --> 00:31:22,356 Speaker 1: the condemned inmate's left side, will assess the consciousness of 497 00:31:22,396 --> 00:31:27,116 Speaker 1: the condemned inmate by applying graded stimulation as follows. The 498 00:31:27,116 --> 00:31:29,916 Speaker 1: team member will begin by saying the condemned inmates name. 499 00:31:30,476 --> 00:31:33,756 Speaker 1: If there's no response, the team member will gently stroke 500 00:31:33,836 --> 00:31:37,876 Speaker 1: the condemned inmate's eyelashes. If there is again no response, 501 00:31:38,516 --> 00:31:41,956 Speaker 1: the team member will then pinch the condemned inmate's arm. 502 00:31:42,756 --> 00:31:48,396 Speaker 1: John Parker, John Parker, Stroke, Stroke, Pinch, Pinch. Then comes 503 00:31:48,476 --> 00:31:52,956 Speaker 1: sixty mili leaders of row coronium bromide that's the muscle relaxant. 504 00:31:53,596 --> 00:31:57,036 Speaker 1: Then one hundred and twenty mili leaders of potassium chloride 505 00:31:57,556 --> 00:32:01,596 Speaker 1: that's supposed to stop the heart. Remember what Tom Perry said. 506 00:32:01,876 --> 00:32:04,836 Speaker 4: It was tasteful. He didn't appear to suffer. 507 00:32:05,836 --> 00:32:10,516 Speaker 1: Well, yes, and no, he didn't appear to suffer. That's 508 00:32:10,556 --> 00:32:13,636 Speaker 1: because he was strapped down to a gurney and sedated 509 00:32:14,076 --> 00:32:17,156 Speaker 1: and given a paralytic so he couldn't struggle or cry 510 00:32:17,196 --> 00:32:20,396 Speaker 1: out even if he wanted to. But of course he suffered. 511 00:32:21,116 --> 00:32:23,876 Speaker 1: His lungs were burning up from the inside, and he 512 00:32:23,916 --> 00:32:27,996 Speaker 1: had a long, extended moment of absolutely excruciating pain. 513 00:32:31,116 --> 00:32:33,436 Speaker 4: Of course, his parents break down and they hugged me, 514 00:32:34,076 --> 00:32:37,676 Speaker 4: and then I walk out. Then I basically I have 515 00:32:37,716 --> 00:32:40,476 Speaker 4: a very good friend. He kind of takes me and 516 00:32:40,556 --> 00:32:42,636 Speaker 4: takes care of me because I break down after I 517 00:32:42,676 --> 00:32:45,756 Speaker 4: talk to the family. But did that kind of describe 518 00:32:45,796 --> 00:32:52,076 Speaker 4: it for you? It's a hard, hard day in many ways, 519 00:32:52,116 --> 00:32:57,116 Speaker 4: it's a joyous day up until because you just see 520 00:32:57,516 --> 00:33:01,596 Speaker 4: this goodness everywhere up until as far as John was concerned. 521 00:33:04,396 --> 00:33:07,156 Speaker 4: Have you ever seen a picture of John? No, I 522 00:33:07,196 --> 00:33:09,996 Speaker 4: haven't told him. I've got It's funny. I keep this 523 00:33:10,076 --> 00:33:12,436 Speaker 4: from my office right by my license. 524 00:33:12,716 --> 00:33:16,716 Speaker 1: You keep that that memorial right here, and I've got 525 00:33:16,996 --> 00:33:17,876 Speaker 1: next to your license. 526 00:33:18,836 --> 00:33:21,556 Speaker 4: Yeah, actually in the frame. I stick it in the 527 00:33:21,556 --> 00:33:25,396 Speaker 4: frame and I keep it here. So well, this is 528 00:33:25,476 --> 00:33:33,316 Speaker 4: this is uh you can see me a much younger version. Yeah, 529 00:33:33,516 --> 00:33:36,316 Speaker 4: I think it was June of twenty ten. This is 530 00:33:36,396 --> 00:33:40,516 Speaker 4: John's father, pe D Parker, his mother Joan Parker. That's 531 00:33:40,556 --> 00:33:43,956 Speaker 4: his brother Bert and John in the middle, and that 532 00:33:44,116 --> 00:33:47,836 Speaker 4: was the day of his execution. The institution took the 533 00:33:47,916 --> 00:33:50,356 Speaker 4: pictures for us. That means a lot. They don't give 534 00:33:50,396 --> 00:33:53,316 Speaker 4: them three or four pictures in the entire family, one 535 00:33:53,356 --> 00:33:56,716 Speaker 4: of me and their family photograph. I mean that. That's 536 00:33:56,716 --> 00:34:04,836 Speaker 4: why I cherished this. Now, Malcolm, I'm trusting you because 537 00:34:04,876 --> 00:34:09,956 Speaker 4: I don't want anything to degrade or insult John's memory. 538 00:34:10,076 --> 00:34:14,756 Speaker 4: So please don't do that. I will not John Tom 539 00:34:14,796 --> 00:34:17,356 Speaker 4: Hefflin told me you were okay, or I wouldn't have 540 00:34:17,356 --> 00:34:21,276 Speaker 4: spoken to you because I would be heartbroken. Yeah, something 541 00:34:21,356 --> 00:34:24,956 Speaker 4: defamatory about John. No, no, no, don't please don't do that. 542 00:34:25,276 --> 00:34:27,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, don't don't be You should have no concern. 543 00:34:27,916 --> 00:34:30,916 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I'm trusting you now, Malcolm, not to do 544 00:34:30,996 --> 00:34:32,436 Speaker 4: that to John and his memory. 545 00:34:33,956 --> 00:34:45,876 Speaker 1: Tom Perry was the one who bothered to care. If 546 00:34:45,916 --> 00:34:49,156 Speaker 1: you're wondering why people get so upset about the death penalty, 547 00:34:49,756 --> 00:34:52,796 Speaker 1: it's this. It's that the people who are in favor 548 00:34:52,796 --> 00:34:55,676 Speaker 1: of it like to believe that it represents some great 549 00:34:55,716 --> 00:34:59,956 Speaker 1: symbolic manifestation of society's judgment, but in fact their method 550 00:34:59,996 --> 00:35:02,396 Speaker 1: of choice is something that some guy dreamt up in 551 00:35:02,436 --> 00:35:05,436 Speaker 1: an afternoon, and no one ever got around at checking 552 00:35:06,436 --> 00:35:11,556 Speaker 1: symbolic manifestations of society. Judgment should not be dreamt up 553 00:35:11,556 --> 00:35:14,356 Speaker 1: on the back of an envelope. And if you're wondering 554 00:35:14,356 --> 00:35:17,316 Speaker 1: why we're spending so much time on this, it's because 555 00:35:17,356 --> 00:35:19,516 Speaker 1: the story of the long day in maw of the 556 00:35:19,556 --> 00:35:24,996 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Senne case is about to get worse, much worse 557 00:35:29,196 --> 00:35:30,716 Speaker 1: next time on revisionist history. 558 00:35:31,716 --> 00:35:33,476 Speaker 4: Thank you. Just got home from work and you know 559 00:35:34,516 --> 00:35:36,556 Speaker 4: they come And he said, well, mom, can you come? 560 00:35:36,636 --> 00:35:38,356 Speaker 1: He said, the police are here. 561 00:35:39,716 --> 00:35:42,876 Speaker 5: Then I went to at Moore, which is where Holman 562 00:35:43,036 --> 00:35:45,076 Speaker 5: is visited with Kenny. 563 00:35:45,156 --> 00:35:49,556 Speaker 3: That morning we were still waiting for the Eleventh Circuit's decision. 564 00:35:51,196 --> 00:35:53,676 Speaker 6: What is taught either at nursing school or as an 565 00:35:53,716 --> 00:35:57,676 Speaker 6: emt or as a doctor cannot be lifted into the 566 00:35:57,796 --> 00:36:01,676 Speaker 6: death chamber, like it's not the same place. If these 567 00:36:01,796 --> 00:36:05,796 Speaker 6: people are not patients, you know, they're not collaborators to you. 568 00:36:07,556 --> 00:36:10,116 Speaker 7: It's been a great deal of media covering, both local 569 00:36:10,236 --> 00:36:15,396 Speaker 7: and national, about what happened in Kenney Smith's execution chamber. 570 00:36:16,596 --> 00:36:19,876 Speaker 7: Much of that coverage has seemingly been openly sympathetic to 571 00:36:19,996 --> 00:36:23,676 Speaker 7: Smith in his cause, even with some going so far 572 00:36:23,796 --> 00:36:26,636 Speaker 7: as to advocate for the abolishment of. 573 00:36:26,676 --> 00:36:27,516 Speaker 4: The death penalty. 574 00:36:38,036 --> 00:36:41,516 Speaker 1: Revision's History is produced by Lucy Sullivan, Ben the daf Haffrey, 575 00:36:41,876 --> 00:36:45,556 Speaker 1: and Nina Bird Lawrence. Additional reporting by Bend, Daph Haffrey 576 00:36:45,716 --> 00:36:50,196 Speaker 1: and Lee Hedgebeth. Our editor is Karen Schakerji, fact checking 577 00:36:50,236 --> 00:36:54,156 Speaker 1: by Kate Furby. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Production 578 00:36:54,276 --> 00:36:58,756 Speaker 1: support from Luke LeMond, Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence, original 579 00:36:58,836 --> 00:37:02,116 Speaker 1: scoring by Luis Kira with Paul Breinerd and Jimmy Bodd. 580 00:37:02,956 --> 00:37:07,756 Speaker 1: Sound design and additional music by Jake Krsky. I'm Malcolm Verlan. 581 00:37:18,236 --> 00:37:22,036 Speaker 1: You can get this entire season now add free by 582 00:37:22,156 --> 00:37:26,196 Speaker 1: subscribing to Revision's History on Pushkin Plus, sign up on 583 00:37:26,276 --> 00:37:30,116 Speaker 1: the show page on Apple Podcasts, or at Pushkin fm 584 00:37:30,516 --> 00:37:35,636 Speaker 1: slash Plus. Pushkin Plus subscribers can access ad free episodes, 585 00:37:36,076 --> 00:37:41,036 Speaker 1: full audiobooks, exclusive binges, and bonus content for all pushkin 586 00:37:41,116 --> 00:37:41,396 Speaker 1: shows