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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

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Speaker 2: All of this stuff I never told you production by

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Speaker 2: Heart Radio, and recently we had the pleasure of getting

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Speaker 2: to talk to Olivia and Katie over at the What's

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Speaker 2: Her Name Podcast and it was an excellent conversation. We're

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Speaker 2: still trying to make this Savannah trip happen, but you

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Speaker 2: mentioned in there we had previously interviewed Olivia during early

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Speaker 2: pandemic days and it was such a fascinating conversation, so

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Speaker 2: we thought we would bring this one back for people

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Speaker 2: to listen to. And it's two amazing stories of amazing women,

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Speaker 2: so please enjoy.

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Speaker 3: Hey, this is.

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Speaker 2: Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff Mom told your

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Speaker 2: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 4: So today we are excited to bring another crew who

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Speaker 4: also loves to talk about amazing women in history and

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Speaker 4: talk about all the amazing or even unknown accomplishments they did.

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Speaker 4: So let's welcome Olivia.

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Speaker 1: Olivia.

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Speaker 3: Hi, so happy to be here.

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Speaker 4: Yay, Olivia, thank you for joining us. Can you introduce

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Speaker 4: yourself for us?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, my name's Olivia mikel and I teach women's studies

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Speaker 3: in Denver, Colorado, and I am the host of the

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Speaker 3: What's Her Name? Women's history podcast with my sister and

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Speaker 3: co host Katie Nelson.

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Speaker 4: And we are so excited that you have joined us.

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Speaker 4: You and I actually kind of connected because well, I

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Speaker 4: say you and I because I was the one handling

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Speaker 4: the social media at that point, because we got listed together,

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Speaker 4: and I was like, oh my god, it is cold.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, crossover so exciting.

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Speaker 4: So can you tell a little bit about yourself for

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Speaker 4: our listeners and about your fantastic podcast and the reason

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Speaker 4: you and your sister decided to start all of it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So I was finishing up grad school and jobs

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Speaker 3: were very thin on the ground here. I live in Boulder,

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Speaker 3: and like the people bagging your groceries, to have a

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Speaker 3: master's degree, so it's really hard to get an academic

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Speaker 3: job here. And I was afraid I wasn't going to

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Speaker 3: find anything. Thank goodness, I did, but and I didn't

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Speaker 3: want to do nothing with my degree. It felt like

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Speaker 3: it felt frustrating to not do anything with this degree

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Speaker 3: that I had discerned. And so I called Katie, my sister,

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Speaker 3: who is a history professor, and we had been talking

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Speaker 3: for a while about doing something for women's history since

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Speaker 3: it was the perfect crossover of our interests. And so

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Speaker 3: we thought about writing articles or doing a blog or

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Speaker 3: something to get more women's history into the world. And

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Speaker 3: at that point podcasting was us about to shift from

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Speaker 3: do you know what a podcast is? To do you

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Speaker 3: listen to podcasts? And so we realized if we can

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Speaker 3: jump on this early on, then we have an advantage

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Speaker 3: over all the other podcasts that will start, and this

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Speaker 3: really seems like the venue that we're looking for. We

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Speaker 3: want this to be public and accessible and something that

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Speaker 3: you can use in classes, but also something that your

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Speaker 3: next door neighbor will enjoy. And so we decided to

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Speaker 3: do this to try to find a way to do

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Speaker 3: a podcast. We knew nothing about it at all, and

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Speaker 3: humanity professors learning to audio edit was hilarious, I will

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Speaker 3: tell you, and incredibly frustrating. But so we weren't really

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Speaker 3: exactly sure what we wanted to focus on. Just you know,

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Speaker 3: we knew women's history and that we were frustrated that

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Speaker 3: you keep hearing the same five women's stories over and

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Speaker 3: over again. And there are I don't know if you

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Speaker 3: know this, but there are more women than five who

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Speaker 3: didn't what I thought they were. There might be dozens

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Speaker 3: of women who did stuff throughout history, and Katie's idea

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Speaker 3: was that she really wanted to focus on all the

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Speaker 3: women that have not been talked about the you know,

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Speaker 3: our tagline is fascinating women you've never heard of, And

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Speaker 3: she knows this now. I didn't tell her at the time.

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Speaker 3: I thought it was a terrible idea, because you I met.

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Speaker 3: It was a brilliant idea, but a terrible idea because,

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Speaker 3: as you know, it's really hard to get people interested

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Speaker 3: in women's history anyway, and doing a whole podcast around

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Speaker 3: women that you've never heard of before just seemed like

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Speaker 3: such a hard sell to me, and I was worried

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Speaker 3: that nobody would listen to it. And then I was

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Speaker 3: walking through a graveyard, as one does, I do. I'm

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Speaker 3: informed that people don't, but apparently they I do. And

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Speaker 3: I was walking through this great old cemeterian boulder and

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Speaker 3: I just sort of stumbled across this gravestone that didn't

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Speaker 3: have any name on it. All it said was mother.

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Speaker 3: And I was just horrified. I mean, it gutted me

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Speaker 3: because I'm a mother and I love being a mother.

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Speaker 3: I have three children who I love, and I am

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Speaker 3: not mother. I am Olivia, and I am more than

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Speaker 3: that identity and I just it suddenly just felt so

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Speaker 3: horrifying to me that this woman was gone. And I

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Speaker 3: know that usually there's a larger gravestone with all the names,

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Speaker 3: and you know that it was probably attached to something

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Speaker 3: at one point, but nothing else was there anymore, and

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Speaker 3: all she was was mother. And I freaked out frankly

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Speaker 3: and called Katie on the way back to my car

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Speaker 3: out of the revery. Yes, we're doing it. We're doing

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Speaker 3: the Forgotten Women podcast. We have to rescue these women

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Speaker 3: from obscurity.

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Speaker 1: And that was it.

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Speaker 3: And she claims that since then that I've been forcing

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Speaker 3: her to do it, but it was her idea, so

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Speaker 3: and it's been it's been really fun to do, and

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Speaker 3: it's been way more successful than we expected, especially given

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Speaker 3: that setup of you've never heard of any of these people,

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Speaker 3: but we're going to make you interested in them, and

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Speaker 3: it's been really fun to have it take off and

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Speaker 3: be much much more successful then we anticipated it being.

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Speaker 5: I love that.

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Speaker 4: And it is the last day of March, which is

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Speaker 4: still technically women's first month.

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Speaker 3: We've forgotten it. Oh my god, March No, March ninety eighth,

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Speaker 3: the longest month in the world.

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Speaker 4: It really feels like it's been this month for over

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Speaker 4: two years now, Yeah, because I'm like, wait, I've been

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Speaker 4: in quarantine for how long? Because it feels like six years.

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Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure I died and came back and it's

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Speaker 4: still the same time frame, right as Groundhog's Day all

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Speaker 4: the time.

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Speaker 5: Well, we were so.

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Speaker 4: Excited when talking with you about bringing in some women

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Speaker 4: that you want to talk about, and can you kind

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Speaker 4: of introduce us to who you have brought for our listeners.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I have picked two of our women who

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Speaker 3: I think are some of my favorite stories to tell.

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Speaker 3: And it really is hard. I mean, it's you probably

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Speaker 3: get this one, which is your favorite episode? All of

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Speaker 3: them don't make me choose a child, but I think

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Speaker 3: these are two important ones to tell, and some of

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Speaker 3: the most surprising that they have been erased or that

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Speaker 3: they have been ignored, because some of the women that

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Speaker 3: we profiled are are just genuinely like no one knows

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Speaker 3: about them, accept the person that we talk to, because

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Speaker 3: every episode we have a guest, and some of them

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Speaker 3: just genuinely like this guest found this person and no

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Speaker 3: one in the world knows about them except this person

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Speaker 3: that's talking to us. And those are exciting, but these

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Speaker 3: ones are more well known in certain circles and certain

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Speaker 3: areas of the world, but still just way less celebrated

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Speaker 3: than they should be. So I've chosen Harriet Jacob, who

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Speaker 3: is the author of Incidents in the Life of a

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Speaker 3: Slave Girl and she was a self emancipated slave in

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Speaker 3: the American South, and noor Jahan, who was the only

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Speaker 3: Mughal empress to rule as a co emperor and sort

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Speaker 3: of even more important than her husband. Right, So we're

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Speaker 3: India and the US, yes, a couple of centuries apart. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and opposite sides of the world, right, right.

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Speaker 4: And completely different situations. One was slave, So yeah, I

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Speaker 4: love this variation.

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Speaker 5: So, yeah, tell us about Harriet Jacobs.

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 4: When I was delving into it, we kind of had

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Speaker 4: a similar story from our female first also named Harriet, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of I think we even

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Speaker 3: set up the episode with her similarity to to Harriet Tubman, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: the famous Harriet. Because one of the things that is

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Speaker 3: frustrating about women's history is that we have one slot

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Speaker 3: for each story, right, we have one slot for a

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Speaker 3: runaway slave, and we have one slot for a pilot

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Speaker 3: and we well, we already talked about a black woman singer,

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Speaker 3: so now there's no more room for them, and there's

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Speaker 3: plenty of room for everyone. Absolutely, we talk about all

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Speaker 3: kinds of kings, and we don't just have room for

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Speaker 3: one queen. But her story is bananas, like you couldn't

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Speaker 3: make it up. If you made it up, no one

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Speaker 3: would believe you. And that's what happened, is that her

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Speaker 3: story is so amazing and ridiculous that four one hundred

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Speaker 3: years everybody thought it was fiction. They believe that this

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Speaker 3: must be a composite story trying to invoke the worst

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Speaker 3: possible experiences in order to serve abolition. And instead it's

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Speaker 3: the absolutely factual narrative of this woman who was an

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Speaker 3: enslaved person who emancipated herself and whose story is not

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Speaker 3: at all what we expect. And that's what I love

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Speaker 3: about her, is that we when we think of in

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Speaker 3: the US, when we think of runaway slafe stories, the

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Speaker 3: story is that you run away, that you run north,

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Speaker 3: and you, if you're lucky, you go all the way

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Speaker 3: to Canada. But at least you run to the north.

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Speaker 3: You leave the location and you go somewhere else and

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Speaker 3: that's how you become free, and Harriet Jacobs didn't. She

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Speaker 3: ran away across the street because she was the man

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Speaker 3: who owned her, who probably stole her by forging a will,

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Speaker 3: which is a whole other horrific side of the story.

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Speaker 3: She probably should have been freed, but he forged a

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Speaker 3: will and it comes to own her and is at

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Speaker 3: least sexually harassing her and probably more. She can't tell

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Speaker 3: the truth about this. In nineteenth century eventually threatens to

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Speaker 3: sell her children to try to force her to put

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Speaker 3: up with his sexual advances, and she knows that as

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Speaker 3: long as she is there, he's going to keep trying

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Speaker 3: to abuse her children to get to her. But she

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Speaker 3: doesn't have any way to get north. She doesn't have

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Speaker 3: any funds, she doesn't have a network, she doesn't know

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Speaker 3: where the underground railroad is running, and so she runs

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Speaker 3: away across the street to her grandmother's house, wherein I

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Speaker 3: didn't know this was going to be this appropriate when

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Speaker 3: I chose her for this, but where she self isolates

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Speaker 3: in a coffin sized space in her grandmother's attic for

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Speaker 3: seven years. Now, if we're all losing our minds after

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Speaker 3: two weeks, and we can still go to the grocery

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Speaker 3: store and we can sit up. She is literally laying

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Speaker 3: down in a space that is seven x ten by

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Speaker 3: three feet tall, and it's in the eaves of the attic,

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Speaker 3: so it's three feet tall at the point, but it

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Speaker 3: slopes down to the side. She can lay on one side.

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Speaker 3: She can't even lay down and roll over in this

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Speaker 3: space for seven years. Wow, it's I genuinely don't even

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Speaker 3: know how to think about this, right.

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Speaker 1: My back's already hard and thinking about this, I know.

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Speaker 3: And our guest Mario Indell, who's wonderful. She's a professor

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Speaker 3: at CU Boulder, and she talks about when she teaches

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Speaker 3: this book, she tapes out on the floor these dimensions,

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Speaker 3: and the tables in the classroom are exactly three feet tall,

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Speaker 3: so she teaches it from under the table. Wow, just

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Speaker 3: to help them realize how small this space is. And

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Speaker 3: you know, after one hour she can barely get up. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and I mean very Occasionally, in the middle of the night,

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Speaker 3: they would sneak her down and let her walk around

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Speaker 3: a little, and that's the only and she can walk,

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Speaker 3: but she has physical damage to her body for the

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Speaker 3: rest of her life from this. She has difficulty walking,

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Speaker 3: and she has back problems, and you know, aside from

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Speaker 3: the extreme isolation and the you know, being forced to

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Speaker 3: be in the space, it's also it's North Carolina and

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Speaker 3: it's you know, one hundred and twelve degrees and one

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Speaker 3: hundred percent humidity, and there are bugs. And this is

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Speaker 3: not a modern attic, this is just planks, and it's

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Speaker 3: raining and it's hot, and then it's freezing cold. And

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Speaker 3: she is just entombed alive in this space. And that

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Speaker 3: that to her is preferable to what looked from the

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Speaker 3: outside as a good situation as an enslaved person, I

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Speaker 3: think really drives home. We can tell all the narratives

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Speaker 3: we want about, Oh, slavery wasn't that bad. It was

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Speaker 3: bad enough that this woman spent seven years in a

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Speaker 3: coffin right to escape, right, yeah. And worse than that,

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Speaker 3: to me is that her children didn't even know where

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Speaker 3: she was. Her grandmother knows where she is, and her

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Speaker 3: uncle knows where she is. No one else knows where

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Speaker 3: she is. And so she can see her children in

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Speaker 3: the street, she can hear them visiting her grandmother's house,

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Speaker 3: and they don't know she's there. That I just can't

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Speaker 3: I can't imagine it's brilliant too, because he's not looking here, right,

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Speaker 3: no one would stay here, and he immediately assumes she's

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Speaker 3: gone north, and she plays into that. She is writing

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Speaker 3: letters as if she's in New York and sending them

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Speaker 3: with people to mail back from the north, and he

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Speaker 3: is spending all of this time, He keeps going north

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Speaker 3: and wasting all this time looking for her when she's

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Speaker 3: five hundred feet away and he has no idea she's there.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's brilliant and horrifying and sobering and amazing.

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Speaker 3: Eventually he agrees to sell her children to their father,

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Speaker 3: who's a white lawyer in town, and so she knows

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Speaker 3: her children are safe. He doesn't free his children this lawyer,

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Speaker 3: but at least they're not going to get sold to

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Speaker 3: the plantation anymore. So then she eventually does go north

256
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Speaker 3: and gets incredibly involved in abolition. She's running reading rooms,

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Speaker 3: she is working on running other slaves. You know, she's

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Speaker 3: doing all of this incredible work, but mostly she's focusing

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Speaker 3: on education. She was educated because the woman who owned

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Speaker 3: her before this man treated her well for an enslaved

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Speaker 3: person and educated her, and she knew how important that

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Speaker 3: was to be able to read and write, to be

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Speaker 3: able to escape in a way from the absolute brutal

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Speaker 3: reality of her world. So she starts some of the

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Speaker 3: first colored schools. She starts these massive education programs for

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Speaker 3: all of these escaping and freed slaves. And she is

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Speaker 3: a huge force for black education in the Northern United

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Speaker 3: States and just a hugely important person. And so when

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Speaker 3: she publishes this memoir anonymously, because she at the point

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Speaker 3: she publishes this memoir, she is still officially owned by

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Speaker 3: doctor Norcombe, her the man who owns her, or doctor

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Speaker 3: Norkam's daughter technically owns her. And so she publishes this

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Speaker 3: memoir anonymously, and no one knows who it is, and

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Speaker 3: it eventually gets it's so it's so wild that people

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Speaker 3: assume it must be fake and it must be written

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Speaker 3: by a white woman. And so the woman who writes

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Speaker 3: a preface for her one of her friends, it starts

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Speaker 3: being ascribed to her Lydia child. And even though she

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Speaker 3: keeps saying no, no, no, no, no, I didn't write this,

280
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Speaker 3: but that's how it's taught for one hundred years in

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Speaker 3: school that this is fiction by a white woman. And

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Speaker 3: it's not until the nineteen eighties someone starts putting this

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Speaker 3: together and realizes, wait a minute, this story tracks exactly

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Speaker 3: with the things that that important, famous abolitionist educator, Harriet

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Speaker 3: Jacobs said about her life. Tracks everything down and even

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Speaker 3: to the floor plans of the houses and the description

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00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:28,479
Speaker 3: of all of these places. It matches exactly. And they

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Speaker 3: realized this was Harriet Jacobs who wrote this, So she

289
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,639
Speaker 3: was already important and famous, and no one knew she

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Speaker 3: wrote this book. Wow, it's just unbelievable to me.

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Speaker 4: So it took over a one hundred and forty years

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Speaker 4: almost for them to realize who this belonged to, what right.

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Speaker 3: When, Even though when it first came out it wasn't

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Speaker 3: sold as fiction, it was old as this is a narrative,

295
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Speaker 3: This is a true narrative, but there were some fake

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Speaker 3: narratives floating around. But I think, you know, it's very

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Speaker 3: easy for people to say, well, and I'm sure that

298
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Speaker 3: there was an element of this is very well written.

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Speaker 3: It must be a white woman, and it's not employing

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Speaker 3: all of the tricks that we expect, and so it

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Speaker 3: just it makes me so happy that she's getting credit

302
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Speaker 3: now and it is being taught a lot more in classes.

303
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Speaker 3: But we don't have enough slave narratives, as this genre

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Speaker 3: is called already taught. But when we do read them,

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Speaker 3: we read Frederick Douglas's or we read these men's narratives.

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Speaker 3: When frankly, her story is the wildest story that you

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Speaker 3: have ever heard about. All this, I mean, this is

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Speaker 3: the very pair debt. There's so much more going on

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Speaker 3: in her story than these tiny little vignettes here and

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Speaker 3: you know, running off over and over again or come

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Speaker 3: chruming to find her, and the white family she's living

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Speaker 3: with sending her off with their baby so that she

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Speaker 3: can escape, like no, no one will stop you if

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Speaker 3: you have a white baby with you, go go go,

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Speaker 3: and just astonishing, and the way that she she talks

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Speaker 3: about the importance of emancipating herself, that one of her

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Speaker 3: friends eventually purchases her to free her. And while that's

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Speaker 3: a very kind act, and she acknowledges like that was

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Speaker 3: probably the best way to prevent me from being sold

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Speaker 3: back into slavery, it breaks her heart because once again

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Speaker 3: she's been you know, after decades of being free of

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Speaker 3: her own work, she is again, she said, Now history

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Speaker 3: has a bill of sale that Harriet Jacobs was sold

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Speaker 3: in the nineteenth century in New York City, when I

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Speaker 3: had already freed myself. So it's complicated and it's messy,

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Speaker 3: and it doesn't conform to the ways that we like

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Speaker 3: to tell these stories. And this really was the first

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Speaker 3: one that pointed out that women have an exceptionally specific

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Speaker 3: problem when they are enslaved people. Right that now our

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Speaker 3: standard narrative of slavery and includes sexual violence, But it

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Speaker 3: didn't until that point. No one had talked about it,

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Speaker 3: and it was carefully hidden away as a thing that

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Speaker 3: didn't happen. And she's the one who shone a light

334
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:16,080
Speaker 3: on it and said, women, if you value Christianity, if

335
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,480
Speaker 3: you value fidelity in marriage, you have to abolish slavery,

336
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,879
Speaker 3: because look what's happening right under your nose. It was

337
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,880
Speaker 3: just brilliantly strategic writing, too, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. One of the things I read while we were

339
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Speaker 4: researching this was the quote that our researcher said that

340
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Speaker 4: this was specifically for white women and for them to

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Speaker 4: acknowledge that this is something that's happening and to call

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Speaker 4: out the patriarchy for sexual tyranny.

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Speaker 1: Over black women like herself, and that she.

344
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Speaker 4: Was trying to put it in delicate ways, but to

345
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Speaker 4: let them know this is actually happening, and you were

346
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Speaker 4: allowing this to.

347
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Speaker 3: Happen, and it's happening in your house exactly, because I

348
00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 3: think until it had been talked about, of course, most

349
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 3: women knew this was happening because it's happening in their house,

350
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Speaker 3: but it's not spoken about, and so they don't know

351
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Speaker 3: that it's happening everywhere. It's humiliating and shameful that it's

352
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Speaker 3: happening in my house. But once I find out that

353
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Speaker 3: it's happening everywhere, this is not me. This is not

354
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Speaker 3: a me problem. This is a societal problem. Right. It's

355
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Speaker 3: not that I can't keep my husband's interest, which is

356
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Speaker 3: usually how it was framed, or frankly, it's that this

357
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Speaker 3: system is a system of sexual assault that we have,

358
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Speaker 3: you know, codified, right, and that has to go if

359
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Speaker 3: we're going to call ourselves Christians. Right.

360
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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I did like her point of saying that

361
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Speaker 4: she almost it almost seemed like she was implying and

362
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Speaker 4: you can correct me if I'm wrong, that it was

363
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Speaker 4: a lesser evil to have.

364
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Speaker 1: This love affair with this white man.

365
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Speaker 4: Oh, definitely, in ordered to kind of validate what's happening

366
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Speaker 4: and to actually pull herself from that situation as well.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that her only choices were succumb to. I mean,

368
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 3: in the story she doesn't succumb. But yeah, right, that's

369
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,200
Speaker 3: not a choice you can make to her owner who

370
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Speaker 3: is trying to rape her or have an affair consensually. Whatever,

371
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 3: we can argue about what consent means in this scenario

372
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Speaker 3: with a white man who at least might be able

373
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Speaker 3: to buy her children his children right, and might at

374
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 3: least protect them from this system in a tiny amount,

375
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Speaker 3: and might at least give her some semblance of agency.

376
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Speaker 3: That she made a choice to do this, but she

377
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 3: knows very well that this is a choice that will

378
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 3: be hugely frowned on by these very devout Christian abolitionist

379
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 3: women she's writing to, and that balancing act she has

380
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 3: to do of that's the point. Look, what choices you

381
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 3: left me? You left me no choices. My choices are

382
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,640
Speaker 3: a fair Her owner wouldn't let her marry the man

383
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 3: she wanted to marry, a free black man, so she

384
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 3: doesn't have choices outside of these ones, and she made

385
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 3: the best choice she could, Even though she says repeatedly,

386
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 3: knowing her audience, I know this was wrong, but it

387
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 3: was less wrong than the other choices.

388
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Speaker 4: And that man was Sam Trentwell Sawyer, who ended up

389
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Speaker 4: being in the US House of Representatives.

390
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Speaker 3: Right right, Yeah, and also significant, Yeah, and who sent

391
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 3: who bought his children and then sent them to work

392
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Speaker 3: for his white children as enslaved people. I mean they

393
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 3: they treated them a little better. No, they didn't. They didn't.

394
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 3: He bought his children and put them to work. It's

395
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Speaker 3: just it's not the white Knight story that we wanted

396
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,359
Speaker 3: to be, which is an important thing to pay attention to,

397
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 3: you know.

398
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Speaker 1: And that's kind of the.

399
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 3: There are no white saviors in this story.

400
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that was kind of her point, is Hey,

401
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 4: I think quote she said, to tell you the truth,

402
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 4: let it cost me what it may. Yeah, And that

403
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 4: makes a lot of sense in this, like there's no

404
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 4: good situation.

405
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 5: This is the best that I could do.

406
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 4: And now I'm able to fight for my rise and

407
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 4: for others and let people know the atrocities that are

408
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 4: happening that you are turning a blind eye to, which

409
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 4: is really significant of a conversation in itself.

410
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a I mean, aside from the story, which

411
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 3: is all very I mean, it seems it's the first

412
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 3: time you read it. You know, students reading go, this

413
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 3: can't be true. This is exaggerated, it's verified, it's fact checked.

414
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 3: She is underplaying right story. If anything.

415
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,959
Speaker 4: They literally said that she was kind of trying to

416
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 4: make it mild enough that people would read it.

417
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, you can't tell the truth about what really happened,

418
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 3: or it'll be too vile for ladies to read. I mean,

419
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 3: and walking that line of making it voyeuristically exciting enough

420
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 3: that people want to read it who might not be

421
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:59,200
Speaker 3: interested in abolition, but also not selling out your own dignity.

422
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's a masterful piece of writing. It

423
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 3: really is. And the woman who edited it, Lydia Child. Again,

424
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 3: often even when they said once they realized, oh, she

425
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 3: didn't write this, Harriet Jacobs write it, there are a

426
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 3: lot of people who still say, well, she heavily edited,

427
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 3: but she herself was very upfront and said I did

428
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 3: almost nothing. I moved a few things around. She wrote this.

429
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 3: I didn't fix this. This is how she wrote it.

430
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 3: And that urge to delegitimize her voice. I think is

431
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 3: it tells us a lot and it's upsetting, right, So,

432
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 3: I mean, it's an amazing book. I really strongly recommend

433
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 3: everybody read it. It's just astonishing from a plot perspective,

434
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 3: from a literary perspective, from a history perspective, it's a

435
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 3: gem of a book. And her daughter went on to

436
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 3: become an extremely important educator. And I mean she just

437
00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:00,160
Speaker 3: she really she made a powerful impact on the world

438
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:04,239
Speaker 3: and changed it in really important ways, even when no

439
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 3: one knew that she wrote this. And now that we

440
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,719
Speaker 3: put these things together, that this woman wrote this book,

441
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 3: that's it's amazing. So yeah, Harriet Jacobs, I hope she

442
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 3: deserves a lot more attention than she's getting.

443
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 4: And she died in eighteen ninety seven DC, right, Yeah,

444
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 4: And she was a significant impact in just women in

445
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 4: bondage and slavery and again the horrendous things that were

446
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 4: happening that people oftentimes want to take ignore because it just,

447
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 4: you know, shames their sensibilities.

448
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, the determination of so many people to clean this

449
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 3: up and to convince ourselves that slavery wasn't that bad.

450
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 3: It was so much worse than you can imagine. Imagine

451
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,479
Speaker 3: the worst thing you can imagine about slavery, and it

452
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 3: was worse than that.

453
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 4: And just let's just go it's slavery the word of itself.

454
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 4: Any it is gonna be bad. That's such an obnoxious

455
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 4: conversation in saying ownership is not a bad.

456
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 3: Thing, right, well, as long as you know, as long

457
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 3: as they weren't physically beaten, it wasn't that.

458
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 5: But no, you owned a person, You own a person.

459
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 4: They didn't get paid, they didn't get any kind of conversation,

460
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 4: they didn't get help. They weren't treated as equals. That

461
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,959
Speaker 4: means as bad and whatever. The greatest situation is.

462
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you wouldn't be willing to trade right now,

463
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 3: then it was bad.

464
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 2: We have some more of our conversation, but first we

465
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 2: have a quick break for a word from our sponsor,

466
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: and we're back.

467
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor.

468
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 3: So let's get back into it now.

469
00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 5: Let's go back even further, as you said.

470
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 3: Into the past and on the other side of the world.

471
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 4: Yes, and tell her was about her next famous fabulous woman?

472
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, uh noor Jahan, Empress nor Jahan. I had never

473
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 3: heard of her until I did this interview for this

474
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 3: episode with doctor Ruby Lall of emer University, who's wonderful

475
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 3: and Katie teaches this period in history a lot, so

476
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 3: she had heard of her, but there was still this

477
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 3: whole aspect of the story that she had never heard.

478
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 3: Because noor Jahan is wildly famous in India. She is

479
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 3: a household name. Her story is the story that you

480
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 3: hear from your grandmother and your mother. It is a famous,

481
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 3: famous story. But her story doesn't tell any of her story.

482
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 3: The story that is famous about nor Jahan is about

483
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 3: her falling in love with Emperor Jahangiir and then marrying him.

484
00:28:55,320 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 3: And that's her story, like she she married him the end.

485
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 3: And it's a beautiful love story. I mean it is.

486
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 3: And I think that's important too, for especially those who

487
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 3: said a European history and Western history have this idea

488
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 3: that like love wasn't a thing courtly, you know, until

489
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,719
Speaker 3: courtly love, no one fell in love. Nonsense. The Eastern

490
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 3: world has been talking about love for thousands of years.

491
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,719
Speaker 3: But this love story, this really powerful genre of love story,

492
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 3: is an important thing to talk about in the way

493
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 3: that women influence societies. But it's so frustrating because this

494
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 3: woman was amazing and none of the stuff she did

495
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 3: is in her story that everyone knows. And so Ruby

496
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 3: Lall's biography, which is called Empress, and it's just amazing.

497
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 3: It's so great, and I recommend it really strongly takes

498
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 3: all of that and puts it all back together. And

499
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 3: as not a historian myself, but someone who has studied

500
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 3: a lot of history in women's studies in one of

501
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 3: these related fields, I love when historians ignore knowledge, the

502
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 3: power of literature, the power of mythology, the power of story,

503
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 3: and that it's not just written off as well, that's

504
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 3: the legend, yeah, but the legend has affected the history.

505
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 3: She is as much her legendary self as she was

506
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 3: her historical self now, and so she brings all of

507
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 3: those things in together and talks about the intersection of

508
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 3: those in ways that I really love. But then also

509
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 3: tells us the unbelievable forgotten facts about nor Jehan, such

510
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 3: as she was a world renowned tiger hunter and she

511
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 3: once shot four man eating tigers with six musket shots

512
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 3: from the top of an elephant. I mean, there's not

513
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 3: a better story in the world than that, no matter

514
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 3: what else happened, Like just those sentences, she.

515
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 5: Was our tiger queen.

516
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean at the time when only the king,

517
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 3: only the emperor is allowed to kill a tiger, right,

518
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 3: and she does it, which is how we know she

519
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 3: was the emperor. She was co regent with her husband,

520
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 3: who was either ill or alcoholic or maybe both right

521
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 3: and kind of out of the picture for a lot

522
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 3: of it. She took over and she is running it,

523
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 3: and instead of thankfully running scary sideshows us, she is

524
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 3: rescuing people from man eating tigers on the rampage. But

525
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 3: that I mean, I just muskets have barely been invented.

526
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 3: No one knows how to shoot them. And if anyone

527
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 3: has ever shot an old school like black powder rifle

528
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 3: muskets something, they are difficult and they are wildly inaccurate.

529
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 3: I mean, if you hit anything within an eight foot range,

530
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 3: you did well. And she kills four man eating tigers

531
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 3: in one day with six shuts from an elephant which

532
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 3: you know is not standing there nicely while tiger is

533
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 3: nip at its heels and she's shooting a musket like

534
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 3: this is an impossible job, and she does it. That's

535
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 3: that woman is. I don't care what else she did.

536
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 3: That woman I want to learn about, right, yes, but

537
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 3: she was absolutely incredible. She is taking over this very

538
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 3: male dominated society and ruling and stepping into the role

539
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 3: of emperor. In very public and meaningful ways and doing

540
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 3: it effectively that people love her. She is minting coins

541
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 3: in her own name, which is the number one sign

542
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 3: that you know, that's how in most of history we

543
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 3: know who was in charge there on the coin. And

544
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 3: she's doing executive orders with her own seal, not her

545
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 3: husband's name. Her name. Just really astonishing power that she's wielding.

546
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 3: But like her husband gets kidnapped by people who are

547
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 3: trying to take over, probably one of his sons is involved,

548
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 3: trying to undermine his rule. And rather than send the army,

549
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 3: or send one of her step sons, or do political

550
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 3: channels or whatever you know a good WiFi should do,

551
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 3: she gets on another elephant and storms off across India

552
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 3: to go rescue him. And then when her step son

553
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 3: sells her out and it doesn't work, she gets captured,

554
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 3: and she's now captured with him. Rather than feeling bad

555
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 3: about that, she goes, great, I'm inside the machine. Now

556
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: this will be even easier, and she stages an elaborate

557
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 3: like escape coup from inside the prison camp, raises an

558
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 3: army under the noses of her captors. Because she's a woman,

559
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 3: she couldn't be, and escapes and rides triumphantly back into

560
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 3: town with her husband that she has saved. I mean,

561
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 3: it's just it's made up, crazy, hilarious nonsense, and it

562
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 3: absolutely happened, right, It's impossible that you did that, and

563
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 3: she did it. She was just the coolest, unstoppable force

564
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 3: of this Mughal empress. She dressed like a man. She

565
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 3: would go hunting. She sometimes dressed like a man, but

566
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 3: other times it was like the peak of fashion. She

567
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 3: was a fashion designer and influenced the entire fashion of

568
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 3: one hundred years of India. She designed jewelry, She was

569
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 3: an artist. She designed tombs, she designed buildings. She shifted

570
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 3: the course of Indian architecture forever. Like the most famous building,

571
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 3: the taj Mahal, is based on the tomb she built

572
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 3: for her parents. That was wild and ridiculous, white marble.

573
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 3: Who uses white marble, We use red sandstone. And she

574
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 3: made up this new whole entirely different form and then

575
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 3: everyone went, oh, that's kind of cool and copied it.

576
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 3: And that's where we get the taj Mahal from her

577
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 3: step son. She was just this massive force in society

578
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 3: and that she's known for getting married. It's frustrating right.

579
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 4: Right, because not only would yes, she got married, but

580
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 4: she kind of fixed the mistakes that have been occurring

581
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 4: or what are occurred under the husband's reign, who again

582
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 4: was either sick or an alcoholic or whatever whatnot. And

583
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 4: she's like, nah, I got this, let me let me not.

584
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 4: On top of that, she's like, and you're going to

585
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 4: see me do it. You're going to see that I'm

586
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 4: no one that's making this change.

587
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 3: Right, and that everybody apparently was cool with it until

588
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 3: until she wrote off on an elephant at the head

589
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 3: of the army that seems to have been the line

590
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 3: when her steps and went, okay, stop it, no, I'm

591
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 3: in charge now, you're not a man. But I mean,

592
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 3: it's just it's amazing, and I think it it illustrates

593
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 3: the point that we we as soon as she is

594
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 3: out of power, they erase her again. And they not

595
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 3: only erase her, they debase all women, that all women

596
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 3: are chaotic and unstable, and that's why she was chaotic

597
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 3: and unstable, and therefore she was terrible and we should

598
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 3: not talk about her anymore. And this very effective erasure

599
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,879
Speaker 3: that doesn't just erase her, that we do this over

600
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 3: and over and over again, we act like women weren't

601
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 3: ever in power. And this comes up in the podcast

602
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 3: all the time that we pretend that women ruling is

603
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 3: an aberration that just every once in a while we

604
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 3: get a weird queen victoria. But it's not the norm,

605
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,799
Speaker 3: and it doesn't happen very often, and we shouldn't encourage it,

606
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 3: and that's nonsense. Women are in power all over the

607
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 3: place all the time. And one of our other guests,

608
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 3: Pam Toller, who's wonderful. She has a book called Women

609
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 3: Warriors that's fantastic. She was our guest on another episode,

610
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 3: but she talked about when she went into writing that book,

611
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 3: she had a list of you know, a few dozen

612
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 3: famous warrior women that she knew about and stood by

613
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,240
Speaker 3: the end she had thousands. She had thousands of names

614
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 3: of these women who were rulers and warriors and broke

615
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 3: all of these norms, which means they aren't norms. I mean,

616
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 3: it happens all the time, but we every time we

617
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 3: pretend like, ohoh, this was unusual, and then five years

618
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 3: later happens again and go, oh, unheard of, never seen

619
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 3: this happen before. Maybe pay attention that it happens a

620
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 3: lot and it's normal.

621
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:20,840
Speaker 5: Right.

622
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 3: But as long as we keep women convince that women

623
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 3: have never been in power, women don't ask for power, right,

624
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 3: it's easier to insist that it's not normal. Right.

625
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 4: I think that's one of the conversations that we've had

626
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 4: with past guests is the fact that there's always a

627
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,720
Speaker 4: discovery that when we think we know who did the first,

628
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 4: there was also someone else who may have done that first,

629
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 4: and we just didn't recognize it until them because they

630
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 4: weren't given the credit for the work they had done.

631
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 4: And then as we keep continuing to dig more and more,

632
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 4: we're realizing there's a lot of significant people, specifically women.

633
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 4: Are those who identify as women a non binary that

634
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 4: just got passed over, right, just their idea is stolen

635
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 4: or the credit taken from them, right.

636
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean even when we give women credit, it's

637
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 3: often at the expense of other women, like the famously

638
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 3: and I adore her. Mary Shelley invented science fiction, as

639
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 3: we all are told, No she didn't. Margaret Cavendish invented

640
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 3: science fiction two hundred years earlier, but we don't pay

641
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,280
Speaker 3: attention to it, you know. And I love Mary Shelley,

642
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 3: but she didn't invent science fiction. It was a thing

643
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 3: well before, and that we don't talk about the many,

644
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 3: many generations and layers of women who have been doing stuff.

645
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 3: We picked the one story and Mary Shelley Sorry, is

646
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 3: amazing and fantastic and we should tell it, but we

647
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 3: don't need to add things that, you know, Frankenstein stands

648
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 3: on its own. Whether it was the first time someone

649
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 3: had done something like that or not, it's it is

650
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 3: peak science fiction, right, but it's not the first.

651
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 4: And yeah, and I do love when we talk about

652
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 4: these amazing women, whether it's true or not, we do

653
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 4: have this fantasized level of and we know beauty does

654
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,400
Speaker 4: accentuate and help give some privilege. But the fact nor

655
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 4: John was known as a beauty as one of the

656
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 4: first things as you recognize, and then all of the

657
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 4: soap opera backgrounds, yeah, hinder.

658
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 3: That she was in love with the emperor but had

659
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,720
Speaker 3: to marry someone else. And I mean it's an unusual

660
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 3: story anyway, because now the Empress is someone who is

661
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:30,240
Speaker 3: a widow, right, she's already been married. That's not something

662
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 3: that's supposed to happen, you know, But he loved her

663
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 3: before she got married, so I mean, it's it's an interesting,

664
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 3: unusual story, especially from a Western perspective who doesn't understand

665
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 3: the way these stories work in mingle culture. But it's

666
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 3: it's just it's a wild ride no matter what you

667
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 3: know about her, and Ruby lall had to do all

668
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 3: of this detective work to find out these things about her.

669
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 3: You know that, Yeah, we all Why do they keep

670
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,280
Speaker 3: talking about her hunting? Why is they they're so obsessed

671
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 3: with her hunting tigers? Because they were telling us something

672
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 3: because if you you know, if we don't know until

673
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 3: Ruby Laule digs this up, who was allowed to hunt

674
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 3: tigers the emperor. When they keep talking about this in

675
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,280
Speaker 3: court documents, they're making a point she is the emperor

676
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,359
Speaker 3: that we we don't have the historical knowledge to understand

677
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 3: the clues they've been trying to give us.

678
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 4: You know. And I do love that her fact that

679
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 4: her name was and I'm gonna butcher this mayor Unissa,

680
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 4: that she was born the name which was son among women,

681
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 4: and then the emperor changed her name to nir John, which.

682
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: Is the light of the world, right right.

683
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 4: I love that that kind of is like the transition

684
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,399
Speaker 4: for that as well, to show the significance of how

685
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 4: amazing she was.

686
00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, and influencing the emperor.

687
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean he absolutely that. The love story part

688
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 3: is not a lie. He absolutely adored her. I mean

689
00:40:55,719 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 3: it was a devoted, passionate love affair that also turns

690
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 3: into this astonishing story of female power and political boundary

691
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 3: pushing and historical detective work. It's interesting. It's really the

692
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 3: portraits of her bizarre and fascinating. There's one of her

693
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 3: loading a musket. I mean, have you ever seen a

694
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 3: royal portrait of a queen where she's loading a musket? No?

695
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 3: And she's dressed like a man. The only reason they

696
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,439
Speaker 3: can tell it's a woman is the very small waist

697
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 3: and the henna on her feet. I mean, this broke

698
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 3: every boundary of art. Women all look the same in

699
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 3: Mughal art, Right, it's the same woman, the perfect woman

700
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 3: with different dresses on, and she doesn't look anything like that?

701
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,879
Speaker 3: Was that her? The royal artist who did this had

702
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,439
Speaker 3: never done another portrait like that ever for the rest

703
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 3: of his career. So is she insisting? Is she saying, no,

704
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 3: draw me draw you know? Who knows? And it's so

705
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 3: many fun rabbit holes to go down, like who was

706
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 3: this woman and you know, how did she manage all

707
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 3: of this, all of these grown step sons that are

708
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 3: vying for power as soon as her husband dies. And

709
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 3: it's just it's fascinating. It is She's she's such a

710
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 3: fascinating woman.

711
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 1: I did love that that there was like a poem

712
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: about her.

713
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 4: She He's like though nor John being formal woman in

714
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 4: the ranks of men.

715
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 5: She's a tiger slayer.

716
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:31,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, making it very clear, like, don't mess with her.

717
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 3: She's in charge here, you know.

718
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 4: I mean, unfortunately it does sound like, oh, she's not

719
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:38,320
Speaker 4: one of those women.

720
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:38,879
Speaker 3: Yeah.

721
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 5: Different.

722
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:40,839
Speaker 1: I mean, that's an unfortunate say.

723
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 4: But at the same time, it kind of is the

724
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 4: credit to her that she took a challenge. It was like, nah,

725
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 4: I'm not I'm not going to stay behind. I'm going

726
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 4: to be the forefront of this.

727
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 1: Watch me.

728
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, I will write an elephant into battle and I

729
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 3: will bring my husband home.

730
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: And she did.

731
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just amazing. And I we especially love

732
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 3: the stories where patriarchy ignores women and gets bitten for it,

733
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 3: right that over and over again women, i mean, the

734
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 3: Roman Empire, every single time a woman rises up against them,

735
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 3: they're like, what is this we have never seen a woman.

736
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 3: We had no idea women could fight, and they don't.

737
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 3: They refuse to acknowledge that it's possible. So it keeps

738
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 3: happening over and over and over all. These women defeat

739
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 3: the Roman Empire because they refuse to admit that it

740
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 3: might happen. It just happened three years ago. Many pay attention.

741
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's nothing more dangerous than an underrestimated woman, so.

742
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 3: That when you can use that ideology, you know they're

743
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 3: not going to pay attention to you. You know, so

744
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 3: many spies during the Civil War, spies all the time

745
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,879
Speaker 3: who just are absolutely they know that the men aren't

746
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 3: going to think they're anything, so they can do whatever

747
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 3: they want. I just did an interview about these amazing

748
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 3: teenage girls who were some of the most effective anti

749
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 3: Nazi resistance workers in the Netherlands during World War Two

750
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 3: because they were cute teenage girls, and nobody thought the

751
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 3: cute teenage girl is gonna ride by on her bicycle

752
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 3: and assassinate the Nazi captain, but they did. I mean,

753
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 3: it was just I love those when you take the

754
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,720
Speaker 3: terrible structures you've been given and use them to subvert

755
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 3: the power. Those my favorite stories always.

756
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: I love it.

757
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 2: I'm just so glad people are doing this work because

758
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 2: it is something we talk about a lot. How unfortunately,

759
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 2: these stories have been lost, and there's a part of

760
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,720
Speaker 2: me that when I hear such an amazing stories like these,

761
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 2: I'm so glad to hear them. They're great, but I'm

762
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 2: also angry that I'm learning them so late in life. Yeah,

763
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 2: I would have loved this story about a tiger slayer

764
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 2: when I was a kid.

765
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 3: I would have loved How did this not feature in

766
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 3: our history classes? Come off?

767
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's not a movie like a big

768
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: you know deal.

769
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,279
Speaker 3: They got lots in India, right, there's lots of great

770
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 3: Bollywood versions of this, which I adore Bollywood, so like

771
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,840
Speaker 3: they've done it better than you need more dancing anyway,

772
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 3: so a lot more. We wouldn't have got enough dancing

773
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 3: in that fight. My teenage sons, when they were quite young,

774
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 3: they've grown up watching Bollywood with me and one of them,

775
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 3: we were watching some American, famous American movie I can't remember,

776
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,399
Speaker 3: and my son, at that point, probably about nine, set

777
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 3: The problem with American movies is there aren't enough angry

778
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,760
Speaker 3: dance offs. So that is the problem with American movies.

779
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 4: True, you can only get that in the fifties and sixties.

780
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Galley, Yeah, that's why we love that. Right,

781
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 3: you need more dance offs. And I'm just saying, Hollywood,

782
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 3: get it together. Yes, agreed. And that's the other part

783
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 3: of this, right, that that we the Western world in

784
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 3: scare quotes just feel free to absolutely ignore the entire

785
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,359
Speaker 3: rest of the world, and that you know, with that

786
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 3: story doesn't matter. I mean, come on, that story is

787
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 3: amazing and if you want to make kids. You know,

788
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 3: my son, my younger son, just about a year ago,

789
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 3: just in passing, mentioned that history was boring, and I just,

790
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 3: like his brother, went, oh, don't know what he's like what?

791
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 3: And so I pulled it together because I know what

792
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 3: he means. Right, we tell history so badly. And so

793
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 3: we were out. I was forcing him to walk with

794
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 3: me around this lake, and so for three laps around

795
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 3: the lake, I told him just the story of Henry

796
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,399
Speaker 3: the eighth and his three wives and his six wives, right,

797
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 3: and just all the details, and people walking past were

798
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 3: looking at us like what that's a weird covers and

799
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 3: then she was beheaded. But by the end of the lake,

800
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 3: I said So do you think history is boring? He said, no,

801
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 3: I think my history teachers are boring. That's amazing, thank you.

802
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 5: Mean, but that's that's like so many good stories.

803
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 4: And I think it's from where you're from too, because

804
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 4: growing up in Georgia myself, as you can tell from

805
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 4: my accent, uh, I got a very edited, dumb down,

806
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 4: not completely history of things because you know, when you

807
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 4: are from a very politically angled Yeah.

808
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 5: I don't even know how to say it all of that,

809
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 5: but you.

810
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 3: Know your history is it through a very specific filter variation.

811
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:21,879
Speaker 4: I mean, even to the point when we're talking about

812
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,240
Speaker 4: Harriett Jacobs again, that point of slavery wasn't that bad.

813
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 4: The Civil War wasn't based on slavery.

814
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 5: A little more like.

815
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 3: Every single one of the states mentioned slavery in their

816
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 3: statement of secession. But that's probably just a coincidence.

817
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 5: Right, I mean, that's kind of like a variation of history.

818
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 4: So you start being like, wait, this is not this

819
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 4: history is not pertained And again for me as an

820
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 4: Asian woman, and I could call myself brown woman, and

821
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:49,800
Speaker 4: I'm like, this not pertained to me? Yeah, in that level,

822
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 4: So you have a very like a skewed version, and

823
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 4: I would have loved it. Yeah, hear about this badass

824
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 4: empress who was shooting up tigers and doing her thing,

825
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 4: rescuing her husband and fighting a pretty much a civil

826
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:06,280
Speaker 4: battle with her own stepsons because they were afraid of women.

827
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 4: I'm like, oh my god, where was that at in

828
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,280
Speaker 4: my grow I want to know about those heroes.

829
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, we You know, you can't be what you can't see.

830
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 3: How are we supposed to grow into tiger shooting, elephant

831
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,879
Speaker 3: writing warrior women. No. And I will say, as someone

832
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 3: who adores tigers a lot, like I can't even I

833
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 3: can't even bring myself to watch the Tiger King show

834
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 3: because it will hurt my heart too much. But she's

835
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 3: only shooting man eating tigers that are killing people. He's

836
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 3: not just out shooting tigers. The space send, No, they

837
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 3: send for the emperor to come and rescue them from

838
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 3: the tiger who's killed one hundred people, and then she

839
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 3: shoots the tigers. That's the kind of awesome, badass warrior

840
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:52,320
Speaker 3: queen that I can get behind.

841
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 4: Again, it was fifteen hundred, so that's a whole different level.

842
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:58,360
Speaker 2: We have some more for you listeners, But first we

843
00:48:58,400 --> 00:48:59,919
Speaker 2: have one more quick break for word from ours.

844
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 5: And we're back.

845
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 3: Thank you sponsor.

846
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 4: Well, I mean these stories are not just for like

847
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 4: a feminist perspective. These stories are yeah, the live realization

848
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:26,839
Speaker 4: of how the amazing people are and the fact that

849
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 4: women are very much ignored in or raced through history,

850
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 4: and so we have to acknowledge and go beyond and

851
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 4: be like, hey, listen to this. This is a fascinating

852
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 4: story about a human being. But because she's a woman,

853
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 4: or because she has a vagina, people who chose to

854
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 4: ignore it.

855
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 5: But now it's time.

856
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 4: This is just just listen to the good stories if

857
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 4: you want to.

858
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that, you know, amazingly half of humanity

859
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 3: has done stuff and it's worth talking about. Yeah. I mean,

860
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 3: my my field makes me both very aware of things

861
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 3: and very cynical on some level. Like I'm angry all

862
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 3: the time doing these podcasts, Like some of them are

863
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 3: super inspiring, but a lot of them I end up

864
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 3: just furious, right, furious about these women's lives or the

865
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 3: things they had to endure, or the way they were

866
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 3: erased or you know, it's frustrating. And so I do

867
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 3: this and then I teach women's studies and then I

868
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 3: was writing a lot of women's studies stuff, and finally

869
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 3: my husband said, I think you need a hobby that's

870
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 3: not about feminism, because, like I just it was eating

871
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 3: me alive, and I thought, you were right. I need

872
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 3: something else that is just fun. Right, that's just positive

873
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 3: all the time. But it also makes me unsurprised by things.

874
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 3: So like I have the platonic ideal of a supportive husband.

875
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:46,439
Speaker 3: He is the best there you could not improve as

876
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 3: a person, my husband, and so he is super helpful

877
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 3: and supportive and great on all of this stuff. And

878
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 3: he is consistently surprised by how few men listen to

879
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 3: our podcast, you know, pretty clear demographics. And when the

880
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 3: demographics came through the first time, he came in just

881
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 3: furious and he said, do you how many men?

882
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:07,879
Speaker 2: What?

883
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 3: What percentage of your listeners do you think are men?

884
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,840
Speaker 3: And I said, ah, three? And he looked at me startled,

885
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 3: and he said.

886
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 5: How did how did you know?

887
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 3: How did you why? And he just was so angry,

888
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 3: he was like incandescent with anger that men aren't listening.

889
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 3: He's like, why are men so terrible? Why aren't they

890
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:29,320
Speaker 3: listening to this? Don't they understand that this is just history.

891
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:31,600
Speaker 3: Women's history is not a niche subject, and he like

892
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 3: ranted for a long time, and it was very good

893
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 3: for my soul to see my husband just so angry

894
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 3: that other men just blow this stuff off. You know

895
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 3: that it's not a podcast for women just because it's

896
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 3: about women, Right, you can listen to it boys, exactly.

897
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 4: And I love that. So tell your husband. He gets

898
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 4: an A plus from us, and we are very much approving.

899
00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, those are very valuable. He's like out there, I mean,

900
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 3: he's out there pushing and challenging people like, oh, you

901
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 3: listen to history podcasts? Do you listen to any women's

902
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 3: And they're like, oh, like, here's a list of options

903
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 3: for you. But and it's frustrating, right, it is, just

904
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 3: it keeps repeating, generation after generation. Your trains to believe

905
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 3: that women aren't interesting and didn't do anything. And even

906
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 3: if we do the what we think is progressive version

907
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 3: of it's not women's fault. They didn't do anything. They

908
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 3: just weren't allowed to. Women weren't allowed to write, and

909
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:34,240
Speaker 3: so they didn't write anything good. It's not their fault. Rubbish.

910
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:36,879
Speaker 3: There's so much good stuff that's been thrown out and

911
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 3: this objective standard of only white men are good writers.

912
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 3: Oh interesting, who decided? Oh white men.

913
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 4: Right, who's the one that's the judges and the right

914
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 4: in this moment.

915
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 3: There's so much good stuff, you know, when you watch

916
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 3: I'm a huge fan of The Good Place, the TV show,

917
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 3: because there are so many jokes in that show we've

918
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 3: never heard before in our lives. Right, we've heard every

919
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,439
Speaker 3: joke on sitcoms. You always know where the joke is going,

920
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 3: even when they're funny. You're like, oh yeah, all right there,

921
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 3: and we don't never know where the jokes are going

922
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 3: there because they're written by people who've never written for television.

923
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 3: We've never let them write before. And it's great. It's

924
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 3: not about diversity because we need to check a box.

925
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:22,920
Speaker 3: It's because it's better to have more people talking. There

926
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 3: are new stuff you've never heard before.

927
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 4: Yes, oh we love that well, Olivia, you are amazing

928
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 4: And obviously it's gonna be one of our best friends.

929
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 5: Yay, because we're going to collaborate again.

930
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:38,319
Speaker 3: I have a feeling that's the dream.

931
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 4: Yes, And of course, let your sister know she is

932
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 4: always welcome as well.

933
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 3: Love. Yeah, hopefully she's a she's quarantined. With small children

934
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 3: quarantine with teenagers, so mine are happy to ignore me

935
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:54,480
Speaker 3: and hers are not.

936
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 4: I'm gonna say this women and the mothers with tiny

937
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 4: children and children at all during start times.

938
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 5: Are rock stars and heroes.

939
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 4: Yes, because I'm annoyed with my dog sometimes.

940
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: And I could just tell her to be quiet.

941
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,360
Speaker 2: Can you tell our listeners where to find you?

942
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 3: Yes, we're everywhere. We're everywhere that there are podcasts is

943
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 3: what's her name? All one word with the apostrophe. Some

944
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 3: of them are very picky about getting that apostrophe in there,

945
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 3: or just google us. We're also at what's your namepodcast

946
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 3: dot com and from there there's links to all the

947
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 3: main platforms, and we're also on Spotify and YouTube. Yeah,

948
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 3: our website has tons of pictures and we always try

949
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:37,880
Speaker 3: to have pictures and links and more information about all

950
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,319
Speaker 3: our subjects and our guests who are amazing.

951
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 2: That brings us to the end of that wonderful interview

952
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 2: with Olivia. Definitely go check out their podcast if you

953
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 2: want to learn more about these two women. Are so

954
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:53,840
Speaker 2: many other women, and if you would like to email

955
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 2: us about women. We should be talking about our other podcasts.

956
00:54:57,560 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 3: We should be collaborating with.

957
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:01,799
Speaker 2: You can our email Stuff Media mom Stuff at iHeartMedia

958
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 2: dot com. You can also find us on Twitter at

959
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 2: mom Stuff Podcast and on Instagram at stuff moom Never

960
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 2: Told You. Thanks as always to our super producer producing

961
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 2: from Afar, Andrew Howard, and thanks to you for listening

962
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,399
Speaker 2: stuff mom Never Told You the protection of iHeartRadio. For more

963
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 2: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or

964
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.