1 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: Hi. I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson. 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,880 Speaker 1: We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling. Revalry. No, no, sibling. 4 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: You don't do that with your mouth, revelry. That's good. 5 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: I was really excited about this because I just want 6 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: to talk to a professor, you know, I want to 7 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: talk to like a historian, someone who lives and breathes 8 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: and understands and studies this, teaches it in school. And 9 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: I really was just excited to be a Yes, so 10 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: we did. We got to We talked with doctor Khalil m'hammed. 11 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: He's a professor history, race and public Policy at Harvard 12 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: Kennedy School. He's an author. He wrote The Condemnation of Blackness, 13 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: Race Crime, and the Making of Modern Urban America. You know, 14 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: it was we went to school. You know, I went 15 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: to school. I went from Boulder, two years in Boulder 16 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: to Harvard. Yeah. I think I even say that in 17 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: the episode that the Far Crime from Harvard. Yeah, I 18 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: didn't even go to college. But you know what, look, 19 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: we're learning as we go. Honestly, this was one of 20 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: those moments where when we were done with this, I 21 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: kind of got off of the of the call and 22 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: I was like, you know, why have I never learned this? Yeah, 23 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: it does make you kind of realize there's just a 24 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: lot that we don't know. There's a lot that we're 25 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: not taught in school. And I just really appreciated him 26 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: taking the time to discuss matters of race in America 27 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: and well we talked about systemic racism really, you know, 28 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: not just the buzzword of system He really sort of 29 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: broke down what that means, of what cemic racism in 30 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: America means, you know, slavery, how and when policing began, 31 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: and how literature and statistics were used to sort of 32 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: push this narrative. It was a lesson. It was a 33 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 1: lesson where we got to sort of be one on 34 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: one with a Harvard professor and pick his brain. And 35 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: it made me just want to read more. It also 36 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 1: it also made me want to go to Harvard. So 37 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 1: I don't want to go to Harvard. I just want 38 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 1: to take his class on a zoom class just us, 39 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 1: just the just me and him. That's it. Anyway, here 40 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: is doctor Khalil Mohammad. You're a professor at Harvard. Your 41 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: specialty is history race policies. Yes, yeah, Well I'm excited 42 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: to be a student for a couple hours or an 43 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: hour and a half. I know this first time we 44 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: get to We're going to Harvard. I know, I'm so excited. 45 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: I went to Boulder for two years, and it was 46 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: two years for a reason. I had to get the 47 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 1: hell out of there. Let's just say Oliver was a 48 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: far cry away from going to Harvard. Well, I just 49 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: didn't apply myself. Where did you grow up, klil? I 50 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,679 Speaker 1: grew on the South side of Chicago, he did. I 51 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: actually grew up in the neighborhood that Obama I started 52 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: his political career and still owns a home. Oh wow, 53 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's called High Park. High Park, that's right. 54 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: And when, at what point in your young life, I'm assuming, 55 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: did you sort of feel that this was going to 56 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: be your path? You know what I mean? Education? You 57 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: know when did you feel did you know that at 58 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 1: an early age? No, I actually thought I was going 59 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: to be a business person and make a lot of money. 60 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: You know. I came of age in the eighties when 61 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: greed was good, right, that was that was kind of 62 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: the ethos of the time and for being a post 63 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: civil rights baby. The way that my parents understood racial progress, 64 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: in part was like being successful going into the corporate sector. 65 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: I did that turned out I was like, oh, not 66 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 1: quite for me, and then I pivoted and decided to 67 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: go to get a history degree. What was you remember 68 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: the moment? I mean, was there a moment where were like, well, 69 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: wait a minute, this isn't really what I want to do, 70 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: This isn't for me. Do you remember that pivot? Long 71 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: story short, Rodney King was beaten nearly the death by 72 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 1: the California Highway Patrol. My junior year officers were subsequently acquitted. 73 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: Next year was the uprising in LA and all of 74 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: that was like a Trayvon Martin, Mike Brown, Eric Garner 75 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: moment for me as a then eighteen nineteen year old, 76 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,799 Speaker 1: and I had a lot of questions, didn't quite understand. 77 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: Nothing in high school had prepared me to understand race 78 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: and racism, certainly not in the present, and also being 79 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: a kid of Chicago, nothing about the way that the 80 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: nation had explained Bull Connor and German shepherds and Southern 81 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: racists made sense in LA. And so that's what led 82 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: me to begin to think more deeply, like, maybe a 83 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: career in business isn't going to answer this for me, 84 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: Maybe something else. What were those questions though, that you 85 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: were asking after the la riots, you know, when you 86 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: when you were sort of when you were making your pivot, 87 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: I mean, what were those questions? Well, how could this happen? 88 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: How could the beating of Rodney King caught on videotape 89 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: and in the acquittal of all the officers. I mean, 90 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: it just didn't make any sense at all, And more 91 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: particularly because as an African American student at an Ivy 92 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: League university. I was at the University of Pennsylvania at 93 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: the time, we as black students, were also being questioned 94 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: by a conservative presence on campus that saw us as 95 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: having been beneficiaries of an unfair firmative action policy. Some 96 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: of us were taunted engaging in various on campus activities. 97 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: So I was also living with a certain kind of 98 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 1: anti black hostility on campus that then coupled with Rodney 99 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: King having grown up in what, by all accounts was 100 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: a somewhat idyllic, middle class, integrated community on the South 101 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 1: Side Chicago and High Park, where President of Obama has 102 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,600 Speaker 1: spent a good chunk of his adult time. So from 103 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: childhood to college to these national events unfolding, I was 104 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 1: totally confused and unprepared. How did the college deal with 105 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: the Rodney King situation? Was there active conversation going on 106 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: campus during that time? No, the students who were outraged 107 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: by the verdict got together and did an act of 108 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: civil disobedience by essentially taking to Market Street, which is 109 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: one of the main thoroughfares in Philadelphia, and marching to 110 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: City Hall. Had nothing to do with the university, and 111 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: in fact, the university had no role, either negative or positives, 112 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: totally neutral in our decision to protest. Where the university 113 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: got involved was because some of the energy that was 114 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: expressed in a larger climate of concern about police violence 115 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: was also playing out in a kind of culture war 116 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: on campus, as I already mentioned about affirmative action and 117 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: many many other things. That's where the university ended up 118 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: having a problem. It had a problem of both trying 119 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: to balance free speech rights for its white students who 120 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: wanted to describe Martin Luther King as a communist and 121 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: Malcolm X as a hate manger, which was what one 122 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: columnist did in the student newspaper he did it pretty regularly, 123 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: and at the same time recognized that black students, who 124 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: were only five percent of the population, were not feeling 125 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: welcomed at the University of Pennsylvania at that moment, and 126 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: so that tension between those two competing principles and norms 127 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,239 Speaker 1: was never entirely resolved even by the time when I left. 128 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: What about growing up? You know, did your parents, you know, 129 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: where were they at as far as the education of 130 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: race as a young boy? You know, did they sit 131 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: you down and say, look, this is this is our 132 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: world right now, this is going to be your world. Yeah? 133 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: So did I have the talk? Did you have the talk? 134 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: I certainly had the sex talk, I remember, Yeah. I 135 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: still haven't had that with my kids yet when they're thirteen. 136 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: I don't know how don't That is very deliberate. He's 137 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: a very smart guy. Spent his whole career as a photojournalist. 138 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: Won a Pulita Prize for photography covering Ethiopian famine in 139 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five. But I don't really remember a race talk. 140 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: I certainly won't remember a conversation about be careful around 141 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: the police, keep your hands at you know, ten and two, 142 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: don't make any sudden moves. I don't think I had 143 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 1: that talk. My mother, interestingly, who was, you know, in 144 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,439 Speaker 1: many ways, first generation middle class. She went to college, 145 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: ended up with a master's degree and then later a 146 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,599 Speaker 1: doctorate of education. Very unusual on my mother's side of 147 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: the family that she had the kind of attitude like, 148 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: racism is not the problem, ignorance is the problem. So 149 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: I remember as a teenager constantly saying that's racist if 150 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: I thought something was racist, and I remember her saying, well, 151 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: how do you know, that's just not ignorance. So I 152 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 1: think she was trying to sort of figure out how 153 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: to balance like not being angry about racism and sort 154 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: of enjoying being first generation middle class. She was also 155 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: a school teacher worked in an overwhelmingly black school system, 156 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: So I don't really remember a race talk. To be frank, yeah, 157 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: in that we're in that space right now. What is 158 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: ignorance and what is racism? You know, ignorance by definition 159 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: is without knowledge. You know, it's okay, it's okay to 160 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: say that you're ignorant. I think that there's a negative 161 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: connotation to that word for some reason, right, But we 162 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: can be ignorant as long as we want to sort 163 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: of understand where that ignorance is coming from and try 164 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 1: to flip it right. But so, how do you differentiate 165 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: sort of ignorance and racism? Now, you know, well, in 166 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: part that's that's the It was my own ignorance that 167 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: made me feel vulnerable in college led me to get 168 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: a PhD in history. And it's a choice to see 169 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: education as an important ingredient to doing what people call 170 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 1: today anti racist work, whether it's anti racist organizing, anti 171 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: racist teaching, anti racist scholarship, you name it. And so 172 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: part of it is that I now have a clearer 173 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: sense that Americans, including myself, were systematically miseducated about the 174 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: history of race and racism in the United States. Most 175 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: of us were taught that racism was really the purview 176 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: of individual bigots, of individual bad people who do bad things, 177 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: and that we can see them, we can touch them, 178 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: we can smell them. They're obvious to all of us. 179 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: This is kind of like the Bulkcarner and Mark firm 180 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: inversion of what a racist is in America. Now I 181 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: know better. A lot of people are learning now for 182 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 1: the first time. It's certainly wasn't taught in school and 183 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: still isn't taught in school that racism by and large 184 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: is a system, a system designed to categorize people as 185 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: people who are doers and workers, people who don't have 186 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: the same rights and privileges. Certainly, in this country, going 187 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: back to slavery, people defined literally as property, as commodities, 188 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: as assets that could be ensured, that could be traded, 189 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: that could be invested, that could be leveraged for buying 190 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: other things. I mean, just incredible. And so nobody learned 191 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: any of that twenty years ago, thirty years ago when 192 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: I was coming of age, and it's still not widely taught. 193 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: Why do you think it's not widely taught, you know, 194 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: with such a huge part of our history. Yeah, well, 195 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: I think that knowledge is power, Knowledge is politics. The 196 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: story we tell about who we are as a nation 197 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 1: is part of the myth making that makes societies work. 198 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: Every society has a kind of origin story, a myth. 199 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: Our particular myth has never had room to take full 200 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: stock of how the basic wealth creation in this country 201 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: was born of theft from indigenous people and labor exploitation 202 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: from people of African descent, and Americans have been very 203 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: prickly about coming to terms with that because they see 204 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 1: it as a zero sum story. If we tell more 205 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 1: about slavery and racism and what happened to the native populations, 206 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: we'll be telling less about how great we are. And 207 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: that's cost us in many ways, but it's most as 208 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: actually cost people of African descent. It's cost you know, 209 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: in different chapters, people of Mexican ancestry, and its certainly 210 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: cost the indigenous populations of this country. Yeah, it's like 211 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: the more you the more we learn about. Like I 212 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: remember when I first read the People's History, you know 213 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: and aggressive, Yeah, well, I mean we went to such 214 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: a progressive school and so it was, you know, the 215 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: cool thing if you read it from you know, front 216 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: to back. But you know, you start reading it and 217 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: I remember we used to argue and uh, senior year 218 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: in school, like everybody used to argue about why we're 219 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: not taught these things? And you realize that it does. 220 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:40,839 Speaker 1: It sort of breaks down. All these things that are 221 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: celebrated and have been celebrated for so long are just 222 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: destroyed immediately when you start to recognize what they're really 223 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: founded upon. I was watching an interview that you did, 224 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: and this I think it was Bill Bill Bill Moyers, 225 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: and he he was talking about history as interpretation. What 226 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: is truth and what isn't How do we know which 227 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: interpretation of history is the correct interpretation. I wanted to 228 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: see if you could speak to that a little bit. Yeah, well, 229 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: so it's a really great point of this question about 230 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: interpretation of the past. So one easy way that I 231 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: try to describe how history is nothing more than a 232 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: disciplined interpretation of a collection of facts about the past, 233 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: because it's hard to recreate all the conditions of the past, 234 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: and the further we get away from it, the harder 235 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: it is to see everything unfold as it did. But 236 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: if you could understand that, then you certainly can relate 237 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: it to the fact that we could all read today's 238 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: newspaper right. Journalists generally, particularly mainstream journalists, are bound by 239 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: the professional stance of journalism to get the facts right. 240 00:14:55,160 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: The opinion writers interpret, the reading public interprets, but the 241 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: facts are supposed to be accurate. And yet and still, 242 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: we could read the same newspaper and come away with 243 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: a completely view of what the hell is going on 244 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: at any given moment. So imagine when you're looking back 245 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: three hundred years that in many ways it was never 246 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: easy in the present to figure out what the hell 247 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: just happened or how to make sense of it. And 248 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily the facts don't get any clearer. What 249 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: gets clearer is that you have a sense of hindsight. 250 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: So what you have is like, oh, like people thought 251 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: that was going to happen and it didn't turn out 252 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: to be that way. Or people assume that this kind 253 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: of president was going to lead in this way and 254 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: it turned out they didn't. So history gives us perspective 255 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: and hindsight. But we still debate over the facts. We 256 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: still debate over how much weight to give to the facts. 257 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: And in that sense, it is like a lawyer's debate 258 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: between two advocates fighting over how to best interpret what's happened. 259 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: Then how do you how do you pick out how 260 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: do you discover the truth? And and and and and 261 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: this is a question that I wrestle with even today 262 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: because I watch all news just to see the different angles, 263 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: to see where everyone's coming from. How do we interpret 264 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: the truth even today? You know, yeah, yeah, so so 265 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 1: they I mean, probably the best standard will be would 266 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: be the preponderance of evidence standard in a civil trial, 267 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: as opposed to a criminal case where you know it's 268 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: beyond reasonable doubt. So if you think about the preponderance 269 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: of evidence, standard historians rely upon the cross examination of 270 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: different kinds of evidence. Archival evidence is what we describe 271 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: as the papers, the private thoughts, the letters, you know, 272 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: places where people tend to be more honest because they're 273 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: not subject to public scrutiny. All of us say things 274 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 1: that we know the public is listening that is slightly 275 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: more beneficial to our personal reputation than we might say 276 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: if we know no one is listening. So historians apply 277 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 1: the same standards to different kinds of evidence, and you 278 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: try to come away with enough cross examination of different 279 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: kinds of evidence that you say, we have a pretty 280 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: good sense of what Alex Hamilton intended or Thomas Jefferson intended. 281 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: Some things are also easy to document. It is easy 282 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: to know what the founding Fathers generation thought about people 283 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: of African descent because they said a lot of things publicly. 284 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: You don't actually have to dig beneath the surface and 285 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: into it their real hearts and minds. White supremacy as 286 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: an idea in the United States of America as a 287 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,360 Speaker 1: colonial idea, as a founding idea as an anti bellum 288 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: idea was a robust defense of the fundamental idea that 289 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:51,199 Speaker 1: there were hierarchies different kinds of races, with a certain 290 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 1: Northern European type at the top, and then southern and 291 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: Eastern Europeans closer to the middle, and then people of 292 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: Asian ancestry, and then people of African ancestry at the bottom. 293 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: I mean, that's the way things were until the kind 294 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: of the middle of the twentieth century. So you don't 295 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: need to be a detective to figure out what people 296 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: were thinking about races for most of American history. So 297 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: when you think of the Constitution, like, how does that 298 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 1: sit with you? Just generally just that document. Yeah, So 299 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 1: the Constitution is a brilliant document predicated on a universal 300 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: idea that didn't apply to everybody, right, And so what's 301 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,479 Speaker 1: brilliant about it is, as Frederick Douglass, the most famous 302 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 1: nineteenth century abolition is said, is that in the words 303 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: themselves captures the idea of a society that I want 304 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: to live in, or we don't live in that society. 305 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: Because at the end of the day, the founders adopted 306 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 1: a language and a set of ideas that privileged them 307 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 1: as property men of elite standing, because what they were 308 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: really pissed off about was the way that they're years 309 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: in Great Britain were mistreating them, treating them like slaves, 310 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: taking advantage of them, not allowing them the political rights 311 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: and liberties that they felt they were endowed with. And 312 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: so the language they captured was brilliant, but it was 313 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: always self serving, it was self interested. And of course 314 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 1: there was a degree there were anti slavery believers and 315 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 1: there were pure hearted what we call progressive today, who 316 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 1: were among the founding generation, but they were not the 317 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: dominant voice. But these are some brilliant men. How are 318 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: they not understanding or if they are, they're just sweepingting 319 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: under the rug their hypocrisy. Yeah, well, I know, you 320 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's hard to get into their heads. 321 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: But a lot of them understood the contradiction. But it's 322 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: the same contradiction that many of us live with. Right. So, 323 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: if I'm a liberal New Yorker and I moved to 324 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: Brooklyn in bed Stye, they used to be working class 325 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: in black and reflected years of systemic neglect, And now 326 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: I feel good about living in this community because it's safer, 327 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: there's cool black people east of Ray, you know, running around, 328 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, I'm like, oh, where 329 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: am I going to send my kid to school? And 330 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I'm not going to send my kid 331 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: to school because there's all those black people that go there. 332 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: I want a special school just for my kid. So 333 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 1: I just give that example. Because we live with contradiction. 334 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: All of us make choices that don't match our principles 335 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: or at least the self that we want people to 336 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: know about us. Mm hmm. That's deep, man, because it's 337 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: hard to root that shit out. That's deep. When you're teaching. 338 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: You know, when you're starting a class, where do you 339 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: even begin? Oh? Man, well it's been really easy lately. Yeah, 340 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: well what courses do you teach? Yeah? So I teach 341 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: so at the Kennedy School, I teach a course called 342 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 1: Race Inequality and American Democracy, And I start with Believe 343 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: It or Not Breed Newsome, who took that on the 344 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: Confederate flag on the steps of the Columbia South Carolina 345 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 1: Courthouse back in twenty fifteen, just after the Emmanuel Nine 346 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:15,640 Speaker 1: were killed in South Carolina and Charleston. I also connect 347 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: her to Frederick Douglass, who gave a stirring speech on 348 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: July fourth, what is your Fourth of July to the Slave, 349 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: which is a piercing Jeremiah critique of the founding contradictions 350 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: of American society. He gave that speech in eighteen fifty 351 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: two in Rochester. I then connect him to Donald Trump, 352 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 1: who has articulated all of these robust ideas about making 353 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: America great, which are in total contradiction to what Frederick 354 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: Douglas thought one hundred fifty years ago. But here's the 355 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: little fun part. Donald Trump was praising Frederick Douglass as 356 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: a great American when he visited the new Smithsonian African 357 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: American Museum. So like make any sense, right, Yeah? And 358 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: then the final person I open with is Jeremiah Wright. 359 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: Now you may not remember who Jeremiah Wright is, but 360 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: he was Barack Obama's pastor of twenty years, who he 361 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: and Michelle who Fox News turned into a caricature as 362 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 1: a reverse racist black man who hated white people. But 363 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,199 Speaker 1: what I show them is if you listen to the 364 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: actual speech that got him in so much quote unquote 365 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: trouble with you, not God bless America, God damn America. 366 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: All of his facts were absolutely correct. The critique he 367 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: made of American society was absolutely correct, but the politics 368 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: of his critique were out of fashion at the time 369 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 1: that Barack Obama was running for office. So when you 370 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: put all that back together, a black woman activist taking 371 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: on the Confederate flag, a president who has accelerated white 372 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 1: nationalists and white supremacist neo Nazism in the United States, 373 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: and a black pastor who was trying to speak truth 374 00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:00,360 Speaker 1: to power certainly inspired Michelle and Barack, who they sequently 375 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: had to quote unquote distance themselves from. And then Frederick Douglas, 376 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: one of the most eloquent truth tellers in all of 377 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: American history. So, you know, it blows people's heads away 378 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 1: because like, all these things are collapsing on each other, 379 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 1: and we're talking about one hundred and fifty years of history. 380 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: Sounds like a really amazing class. Do you find that 381 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: your students are expressive in the class and incredibly engage 382 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: your Do you find there's like trepidation in how to 383 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: communicate some of these subjects. Yeah? Yeah, So first of all, 384 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: some people might assume that I have mostly black students. 385 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 1: That's not possible where I teach, because we only have 386 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: like four percent black population in a school in various 387 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: programs of the school, and they're about eight hundred students 388 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: who attend the Kennedy School. They're all graduate students, and 389 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: so my classes are about eighty percent white or Asian, 390 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,199 Speaker 1: and I have a small number of Latin X students 391 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 1: and black students they make up about twenty percent. So 392 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: the students white students, many of them are self selected 393 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: students who are interested in this stuff. Some of them 394 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 1: don't know a whole lot. Some of them have learned 395 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 1: a few things, and so it's a mix, but they 396 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: they warm up, and to be honest with you, probably 397 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 1: the biggest takeaway from who my students are what they represent. 398 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,159 Speaker 1: First of all, they're going to be they're going to 399 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 1: be legislators, they're going to run things, They're going to be, 400 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 1: you know, change agents, because that's what the school produces. 401 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: But also they are the kind of people who will 402 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: admit that, hey man, I got the best education in 403 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 1: this country office I went to private school here, I 404 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: am at Harvard. Some of them went to Harvard undergrad 405 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: and they're like, I feel like a freaking idiot in 406 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: this class because no one ever taught me this stuff. 407 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 1: H I mean I watched a piece where you were 408 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: talking about really starting at a kindergarten level, Like how 409 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: do we start to implement some of these studies immediately 410 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: into the classroom? You know, I think it's vital that 411 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: these things are well, it's it's creating different adults. And 412 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: you actually said that you know, different adults, And yeah, 413 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 1: I mean it's an interesting topic right now because of 414 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: course there is an education process that has to happen 415 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: that I'm dealing with with my kids. And you know, 416 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: I personally, you know, am trying to educate myself as 417 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: much as possible number one, and then I'm trying to 418 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: figure out how to communicate some of these things to 419 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: my children, who really they understand what's going on, but 420 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: they don't really understand because they're looking at it at 421 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: some points and they're like, well, why is this happening? 422 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 1: I don't feel this way. This isn't the way that 423 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: I feel. But at the same time, it's important to 424 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: understand your history. And I think sometimes maybe the white 425 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: people are wrestling with do we feel like we're tainting 426 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 1: our kids or we let them just be these free 427 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 1: spirited children. Yeah, so what you're describing is that if 428 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: I didn't have the talk as an appaxton or young person, 429 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 1: that our parents didn't do, which is not I mean, 430 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: I would say a lot of black kids do have 431 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: the talk, But if I didn't have it, think of 432 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: the millions of white kids who didn't have it when 433 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: I was coming of age and don't have it now. 434 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 1: And so the problem, in part is that it's not 435 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: that not talking about race to your child or taking 436 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: some color blind approach, which is a kin to saying 437 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: we don't teach our kids to see color, don't notice color. 438 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: We all treat everybody the same. The problem is that 439 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 1: they're learning both because of the society we live is 440 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: profoundly unequal, and that you can make assessments about who's 441 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: doing well and who's not by simply opening your eyes 442 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,639 Speaker 1: and watching who are the essential workers and who are not. 443 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: What kinds of stereotypes exist about people and in this 444 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: day and age for kids, like the idea that any 445 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: parent of like an eight year old thinks their kids 446 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: not seeing what's happening in the world is totally absurd. 447 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: Social psychologists call this the problem of racial socialization, that 448 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: basically white kids are being racially socialized. They are learning 449 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 1: about race, but they're learning about it in ways that 450 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: actually reproduce the worst racist cultural stereotypes about non white people, 451 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: because that's how the world is currently organized. So what 452 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: I say is like, if you think that your kid 453 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,360 Speaker 1: is less likely to end up with a child as 454 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 1: a teenager, or to contract a sexually transmitted disease, or 455 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 1: to have really retrograde, toxic masculinist thoughts about women and girls, 456 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 1: then the best way to do that is to not 457 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 1: say anything about her gender or to talk about the 458 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: way that we treat people or non gender conforming folks. No, 459 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: of course, not abstinence only is a terrible idea as 460 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: a form of education, and it's been proven. So we 461 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: know that if we want our kids to protect their 462 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 1: bodies and we want we want them to protect other 463 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,200 Speaker 1: people's bodies and to respect difference in terms of gender 464 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: and sexuality, then we have to actually teach them. And 465 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: it's not a one off lesson. It's not a woman's 466 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: history lesson. It is a lesson baked into both what 467 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,239 Speaker 1: we do as parents, but it's also baked into what 468 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: we expect to happen in school, and so we need 469 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 1: to do the same thing when it comes to understanding 470 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: race and racism and other forms of social difference, because 471 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: we know that the consequences are lethal. They cost us, 472 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 1: they cost the individual lives, They hold up all kinds 473 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: of inequalities and forms of discrimination. Then most people say, well, 474 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 1: I didn't sign up for that, But in a way, 475 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: you're part of it. If you're teaching your child to 476 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: you know, or protecting their innocence, is the is the 477 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: better way to put it. Helix celix, helix, he licks helix. 478 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: He I always want to do jingles when when when 479 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: I start the ad, I was I wish there was 480 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,239 Speaker 1: like a jingle I can sing or make up like 481 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: he looks sleep your best nine, or he looks put 482 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: your head on the pillow. No, he looks your back 483 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: will never hurt. Something like that. That's free. Helix. That's free. 484 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: You can just use that. We love our helix, we 485 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: love our helix, helixes or helix I. I'm not sure. 486 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: Grammar was not really a great subject for me. This 487 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: has been a game changing mattress for me, no doubt 488 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: about it. They make it really easy this quiz. It 489 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: matches your body type and sleep preference. To the perfect 490 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: mattress for you, like you know, if the mattress, if 491 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: you like a mattress that's really soft or firm, or 492 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: you sleep on your side or your back, your stomach, 493 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: or if you sleep really hot. There's a specific Mattrex 494 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: mattress for each and everybody's unique taste. And you take 495 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: this test and it sets you up with one. I 496 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: love when companies design things for individuals and everybody. Everybody 497 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: sleeps differently, so it's it's nice. I mean. It has 498 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: been awarded number one best overall Mattress pick of twenty 499 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: nineteen and twenty twenty by GQ and Wired magazine. So 500 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: just go to helix dot com slash sibling take their 501 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: two minute sleep quiz. They'll match you a customized mattress 502 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,239 Speaker 1: and give you the best sleep of your life. Oh, 503 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: it's offering two hundred dollars off all mattress orders, two 504 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: free pillows, two free pillows for our listeners. 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No, 514 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: but it's but it's a coffee, so you don't taste 515 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: the mushrooms at all. I mean it tastes like really 516 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: great coffee, but you're benefiting. Well, the mushrooms are so 517 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: great for you. So it's lions made, which is not 518 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: actual lions made. Lions Made's great for cognitive it supports focus, clarity, 519 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: you feel all the benefits of regular coffee. But it's 520 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,360 Speaker 1: sort of minus the jitters. You don't get that real 521 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: caffeinated jitter, at least I don't. It's easy on my gut. 522 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 1: All four Sigmatic products, all products are they're organic, and 523 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: they're vegan, and they're gluten free, and every single batch 524 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: is tested in a third party lab for heavy metals. 525 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: There's no allergens, there's no bad bacteria, ye smolds, mycotoxins, pesticides, 526 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: insures purity and safety, so you know you're getting the 527 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:59,719 Speaker 1: highest quality of coffee and shrooms. I said shrooms, not 528 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: those kind of shrooms. The best of all. Force Sigmatics 529 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: stands behind their products unconditionally with one hundred percent money 530 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: back guarantee. Love every sip. 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Now to claim this deal, you got 540 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: to go to forsigmatic dot com slash sibling or use 541 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: code sibling at checkout. Go to fo U R S 542 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: I G M A T I C dot com slash 543 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: sibling and fuel your productivity and creativity with some delicious 544 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: mushroom coffee. Full discount applied at checkout. You can't really 545 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: beat that. I actually have a question. This is maybe 546 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: a controversial question. I'm not even sure, but I sort 547 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: of used my own experience as a child whose dad 548 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: left him, right, My our father left and was not around. 549 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: His father left him, and you know, it continued on 550 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: in sort of the Hudson male, you know, than to 551 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: the patriarchy leaving their kids. Right. I wanted to break 552 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,000 Speaker 1: the cycle in a sense, I just I felt it. 553 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: I never wanted to be that person as a young 554 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: as a young man. So should one have any compassion 555 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: for a child a newborn of racism? Meaning they did 556 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 1: did they have a chance to think for themselves? They 557 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: were born into a family of racists, so to speak, 558 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: and this is all that they knew. You know, how 559 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: do we break those patterns? How do we break those cycles? 560 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: Is it their fault? Necessarily? When you have no choice, 561 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: there is no free thinking. This is who you're going 562 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: to be, This is who my parents are, So I 563 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: don't have much of a choice. Yeah. Yeah, I think 564 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,399 Speaker 1: there's a lot of compassion for children who grow up 565 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:33,439 Speaker 1: in you know, staunch racist households, There's no question about that. 566 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: That's why schools are places that build our sense of 567 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: civic well being, places that promote democracy. I mean, school 568 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: is not just some career builder so that you can 569 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 1: get a job one day, as people often think about it. 570 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: The whole point of school was to socialize a sense 571 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: of collective responsibility. How do you learn the social contract 572 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: that we're all supposed to live by? You learn it 573 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: in school. It's yeah, allegiance, right. I think what's really 574 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: interesting about what's happening right now is the sort of 575 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: unveiling of how corrupt our institutions are, how messed up 576 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:17,280 Speaker 1: from the school system, the bureaucracy, and they're antiquated, the curriculums, 577 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,839 Speaker 1: what children are learning, and the money going into the 578 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: school systems, and then you have the police, which you know, 579 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: we'll get into that institution. Then you have the government 580 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: and the corruption inside of the government, and you know, 581 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: I've never spoken of these things because it's something that 582 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 1: is polarizing and sometimes I like to just be Switzerland. 583 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 1: But the reality is is that right now. What's amazing 584 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: about this flare up in history that we're living in 585 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 1: now is this to me is that it's like sort 586 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: of the veil being lifted. It's like, oh, now we 587 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 1: can really talk about how corrupt these you know, that 588 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: these institutions have to change. For this to change, we 589 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: need to talk about race now, not color blindness, like 590 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: there is a real it's like it is about race. 591 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and anyway, sorry, well no, you actually your 592 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: riff there is really important because part of what you're 593 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: describing is a lot of Americans share a mistrust of 594 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: our public agencies. Now they mistrust them for different reasons. 595 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,720 Speaker 1: So if I'm a Southerner and I believe the government 596 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: is evil, then I may mistrust it because I think 597 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: the government's doing bad things. If I'm a Northern Liberal, 598 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: I may mistrust government because the local schools aren't working, 599 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,840 Speaker 1: or they're wasting money, or I feel like they should 600 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: be doing more. So there's a lot of mistrust. And 601 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: the thing that I would say that is not so 602 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: obvious is that we've had about four decades of various 603 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 1: leaders in our country at all levels, federal, state, local, 604 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,319 Speaker 1: kind of breaking government on purpose. Why would we have 605 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: political leaders break government on purpose? Because if you have 606 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: a sense that government's working against your interests, bingo, like, 607 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 1: let's get rid of it. If you have a sense 608 00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,280 Speaker 1: that you want to keep more of your money, because 609 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 1: the people who benefit from government are as. Mitt Romney 610 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: once said, takers instead of makers, then the hell with government, 611 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: Why should we need it? Or if you're working class 612 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,240 Speaker 1: African American and government looks like the way the police 613 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,479 Speaker 1: treats you, then you don't want government in your life either, 614 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 1: because it's abusive. So there's a lot of ways in 615 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: which government not only hasn't been working, but it's also 616 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 1: been kind of deliberately sabotaged. That's partly a consequence of 617 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,479 Speaker 1: Reagan Revolution. Partly. I mean he named it. He said, 618 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: you know, the evil is government itself. But Trump shows us, 619 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: for example, that across agencies, like you don't want the 620 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,359 Speaker 1: EPA to work, hire a fossil fuel person to run 621 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: the EPA, You don't want the State Department to work, 622 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:15,320 Speaker 1: don't replace diplomats, just stop hiring people. So we're seeing 623 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: in this moment a very extreme, deliberate effort to make 624 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 1: a lot of government fail so that it fuels. Yet again, 625 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: the private sector has the answer. I'm a businessman, I 626 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: can run America. Business people are wonderful. So it's complicated, 627 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 1: but that is not something that most Americans think about, 628 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: which is the deliberate sabotaging of our public sector. So 629 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: when you say Switzerland, the reason why those countries, Scandinavian 630 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: countries work is because the citizens over the country know 631 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: that the public sector has to represent our collective interests. 632 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,359 Speaker 1: It has to do well because if it does well, 633 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: we all benefit. But aren't we dealing though with You know, 634 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 1: I had this conversation with a friend yesterday. You know 635 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: how it's like policy and money, right, these are the 636 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 1: two things that are needed. Okay, Policy, Everyone is so 637 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: worried about their constituents. It's the people. The people have 638 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 1: to speak, and you're seeing that now, especially on the 639 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 1: Republican side. I'm sure there's a lot of minds that 640 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 1: are thinking, that are feeling one thing but doing another. 641 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 1: They have to appease their constituents. If the people speak, 642 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: then politicians and that whole process has to shift. Or 643 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: Am I not right? You're right? You know. I mean, 644 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: whether everyone's answering to the people, you answer to the people. 645 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: These lawmakers it's all about their districts, that's it. Whether 646 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: they believe what's in their heart, you know, it seems 647 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: to be put aside a little bit. Their integrity is 648 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,800 Speaker 1: compromised because they just want to be fucking re elected. 649 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 1: For the most part. So you know, pointing out is 650 00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 1: a chicken and egg problem, right, So right here I 651 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: am sort of pinning the problem on the political elites 652 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,280 Speaker 1: and the you know, ambivalence on one end and direct 653 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 1: anks directed towards the system. But you're right. I mean, 654 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,839 Speaker 1: we have also as citizens been demanding, like I don't 655 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,239 Speaker 1: want to pay any more taxes. I don't want to 656 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,719 Speaker 1: you know, pay for a new Hudson Tunnel project to 657 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 1: collect New Jersey to Manhattan so that Amtrak can can 658 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: run better because Amtrak's is already bloated. The hell with 659 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: the post Office because you know who needs it anyway. So, like, 660 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: you're right. And the way that that we try to 661 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 1: understand that political scientists do this more than historians is 662 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 1: that they look at like what messages are people getting, 663 00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 1: Like how are people coming to see taxes as some 664 00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 1: kind of inherent bad when taxes is really the only 665 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,440 Speaker 1: means to fund our collective goods. It's the only means 666 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,880 Speaker 1: to get a road repaired, unless you're going to privatize 667 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 1: the road and tell some billionaire you can make money 668 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: off the charging a toll on the role road. So 669 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: so the degree to which people have the responsibility of 670 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,279 Speaker 1: demanding more of their politicians is the work that's right 671 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 1: in front of us. It's why people are calling for 672 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 1: a green New Deal who are on the left or 673 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,800 Speaker 1: who are progressive, because they're like, look, Earth is about 674 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: to explode and triple up into a dried up raisin 675 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 1: because of greenhouse emissions, and so how do we fix that? Well, 676 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,399 Speaker 1: we have to build an infrastructure to roll back the 677 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: impact of carbon emissions and to sustain the future so 678 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: that grandchildren whatever. That's not going to happen. Because Michael 679 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: Bloomberg writes a big check, he can certainly contribute to 680 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,799 Speaker 1: the cause. But we have to agree that we care 681 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,200 Speaker 1: enough about this collectively in order for that to happen. 682 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 1: And doesn't that translate to what's happening now as far 683 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,799 Speaker 1: as race. I mean, people have to get hip to 684 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 1: what it is to understand history a little bit more, 685 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: to go a little bit deeper instead of just being 686 00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 1: reactionary to some of these things that are happening. I mean, 687 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 1: does this moment feel different to you than in your 688 00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 1: lifetime anyway? And how do we continue this shit? Absolutely, 689 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 1: so I've been asked this question, So yes, this moment 690 00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 1: feels different I've never seen anything like this at every 691 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,239 Speaker 1: level that I could measure. What I'm watching on television, 692 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,839 Speaker 1: what I'm reading in the newspaper, the conversations I've had 693 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 1: with my own daughter, who has been to protest last 694 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:17,879 Speaker 1: six seven days in a row, the teachings that I'm 695 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,839 Speaker 1: doing as a historian, the conversations I'm getting at every 696 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,760 Speaker 1: level of civil society, from folks in the Hollywood community 697 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,839 Speaker 1: who I've gotten to know in various things that I've 698 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,279 Speaker 1: done over the years, to people who are part of 699 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: very elite think tanks in this country. They're all asking 700 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,560 Speaker 1: the same question, how do we move forward? How do 701 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,319 Speaker 1: we deal with this moment? You ask the question, how 702 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,719 Speaker 1: do we take that momentum and sustain it? And to 703 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 1: be frank, I think that mostly the longer people stay 704 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: in the streets, the more momentum will be sustained. Kind 705 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,120 Speaker 1: Of as simple as that. As soon as people move 706 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 1: into discussions behind closed doors, until as soon as people 707 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: hand off all of their power back to elective the officials, 708 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 1: the less likely we are to see the kind of 709 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,360 Speaker 1: transformation that is required at this moment. I want to 710 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,400 Speaker 1: add one quick thing though, on the climate change issue. 711 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: You compared it to race in your original response, You're 712 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 1: exactly right, because if we think about the absurdity of 713 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 1: not only a set of politicians, but also their constituents 714 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:26,279 Speaker 1: saying climate change is a hoax, that scientists are in 715 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,759 Speaker 1: some kind of liberal media conspiracy to convince us to 716 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,399 Speaker 1: do these things. I mean, we elected a president who 717 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,399 Speaker 1: pulled out of an international climate change agreement. I mean 718 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,480 Speaker 1: this is not like just partisan malarkey, as Joe Biden 719 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 1: might say. This is what stakes could not be higher. 720 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,719 Speaker 1: So how do you explain people who really believe that 721 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 1: climate change is a hoax? Well, part of it is 722 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:57,319 Speaker 1: that they have religious beliefs that trump science. They are 723 00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: trusting of authoritarian figures who tell them what to believe. 724 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:07,480 Speaker 1: Race is an equivalent problem. People's beliefs about race are 725 00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 1: trumping the evidence of racism, trumping the evidence of systemic 726 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,360 Speaker 1: white supremacy. And so it's hard to change people's beliefs 727 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 1: once they reach a certain age because just like learning 728 00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 1: a foreign language or learning how to play an instrument, man, 729 00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,719 Speaker 1: it gets really tough after a certain point. So you 730 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 1: have to invest at a younger age in order to 731 00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: educate people. We need kids to be more respectful of science, obviously, 732 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 1: and we need kids to learn a or truthful history 733 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,319 Speaker 1: about what happened in this country and in other parts 734 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,840 Speaker 1: of the world. I mean, I know, this is what 735 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,880 Speaker 1: everybody's talking about, and it's simple and you see it 736 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:49,319 Speaker 1: on social media. But I mean the simple question, what 737 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 1: is systemic racism? Oh man, it's a good question. Yeah, Well, 738 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,359 Speaker 1: systemic is becoming this buzzword. It's a buzz people are 739 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:01,120 Speaker 1: just using it now without understanding the met definition. You have. 740 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,839 Speaker 1: You know, you have like the slides and people slide over. 741 00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,840 Speaker 1: And there's a couple statistics that talk about systemic racism 742 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,960 Speaker 1: and what it is, and it's informative and I think 743 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,399 Speaker 1: it's I think a lot of people have done their 744 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,239 Speaker 1: own looking deeper into it. But while while we have 745 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:19,080 Speaker 1: you here, I mean, what is systemic racism? Yes, let's 746 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:24,560 Speaker 1: do it all right. Exhibit A slavery right, doesn't take 747 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,800 Speaker 1: much to convince someone like, oh, yes, slavery was a system. 748 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:35,360 Speaker 1: It was the dominant economic engine of the colonies until 749 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:41,759 Speaker 1: the revolutionary period, and then it became a major appendage 750 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,760 Speaker 1: to an increasing industrial economy that emerges in the North. 751 00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,880 Speaker 1: So if you have a hard time thinking of slavery 752 00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 1: as systemic racism. Then everything else I'm going to say 753 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,160 Speaker 1: from now on is going to be even tougher. Okay, 754 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,840 Speaker 1: that's exhibit A. Exhibit B would be most people would say, okay, 755 00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:01,240 Speaker 1: a system in the South that emerges. It basically says 756 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:06,239 Speaker 1: that most black people men will work as sharecroppers, and 757 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 1: they will be cheated systematically by white landowners because if 758 00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,320 Speaker 1: they try to negotiate fair terms, they might be lynched 759 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,239 Speaker 1: or hauled away by the local sheriff. And women will 760 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,160 Speaker 1: work in white people's homes taking care of their babies 761 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,960 Speaker 1: as domestics, and the children and the spouses of those 762 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,960 Speaker 1: farm workers will not be able to go to school, 763 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,040 Speaker 1: will not be able to move freely through Southern society 764 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:36,160 Speaker 1: because the dictates of segregation say that that's an upfront 765 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,800 Speaker 1: to white people. So that's systemic racism, right, not an abstraction. 766 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:46,080 Speaker 1: So then we get to this nineteen sixties in the present. 767 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:48,799 Speaker 1: Right now, things start to get a little squishy for 768 00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,719 Speaker 1: people because they're like, well, the civil rights movements solve this, 769 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,360 Speaker 1: so we don't have systemic racism anymore. All those laws 770 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,200 Speaker 1: fixed it. But actually, no, we'd have to go to 771 00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:02,080 Speaker 1: the north to see a better example of what systemic 772 00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,920 Speaker 1: racism looks like. So a lot of people know now 773 00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:10,480 Speaker 1: that this thing called redlining is part of why African 774 00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:15,760 Speaker 1: Americans don't have the same wealth as whites. That on average, 775 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 1: the average black family has about seventeen thousand dollars, the 776 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,640 Speaker 1: average white family has about one hundred and seventy thousand dollars. 777 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,719 Speaker 1: Why because most white people's assets are bound up in 778 00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:27,200 Speaker 1: their house, why don't black people Why aren't more black 779 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,319 Speaker 1: people homeowners? Why don't they have more assets tied up 780 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:35,480 Speaker 1: in real estate? Because private lenders in the early twentieth 781 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 1: century made buyers and homeowners signed restrictive covenants. It said, 782 00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,600 Speaker 1: you cannot sell this house to a black person. Why 783 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,560 Speaker 1: would they do that, Well, one, they were practicing another 784 00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,960 Speaker 1: form of segregation like their southern counterparts, but also because 785 00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:53,799 Speaker 1: the real estate market believed that black people were an 786 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:58,120 Speaker 1: inherent risk to property values, not because black people did anything, 787 00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,520 Speaker 1: but because the idea we have white supremacy meant that 788 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:06,680 Speaker 1: the more social intimacy between blacks and whites, the less 789 00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: desirable was the community. So that moved from the private 790 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,759 Speaker 1: market to the federal government. By the nineteen thirties, the 791 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:22,279 Speaker 1: federal government sanctioned redlining by building into its underwriting policies 792 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:27,280 Speaker 1: when it gave money to builders or gave reduced interest 793 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,920 Speaker 1: rates to homeowners, said you can have this money, you 794 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,359 Speaker 1: can have a piece of the American dream, as long 795 00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,719 Speaker 1: as black people don't live in that neighborhood, as long 796 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:37,560 Speaker 1: as you don't sell to black people. And so the 797 00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:42,520 Speaker 1: term redlining captures how the federal government and private lenders 798 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:47,160 Speaker 1: and banks participated in keeping black people out of white 799 00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:52,279 Speaker 1: communities for most of the twentieth century. Long Island in 800 00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:56,000 Speaker 1: New York just did a major investigation about six months ago, 801 00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:00,160 Speaker 1: and real estate brokers are still steering black people well 802 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,560 Speaker 1: into black neighborhoods and white people into white ones. So 803 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,520 Speaker 1: that's probably the most obvious of our more recent time 804 00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,080 Speaker 1: understanding of what systemic racism we could talk about and 805 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:15,319 Speaker 1: was there and was the reason that happened? Where you know, 806 00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,520 Speaker 1: you cannot sort of integrate or commingle because you're you're 807 00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,440 Speaker 1: not going to you're not where you're not gonna be 808 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,600 Speaker 1: able to borrow? Right, is the reason that that happened? 809 00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:26,920 Speaker 1: Because black people were considered a criminals. Was there a 810 00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:31,120 Speaker 1: criminality attached to black people then, which obviously you go 811 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: back in history again to catch up to the reasons 812 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:39,319 Speaker 1: why this was happening in the first place in the thirties. Yeah, right, right, 813 00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:42,239 Speaker 1: So yeah, this is complicated, right, you're ating. I mean, 814 00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,120 Speaker 1: we're getting into the weeds here a little bit, and 815 00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,200 Speaker 1: so you know, if it gets too much, pull me out. 816 00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:52,800 Speaker 1: But blackness, like the very symbol of blackness, was both 817 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:57,360 Speaker 1: a form of attraction. It made America unique, it shaped 818 00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,040 Speaker 1: our culture. Like the obvious way to understand that that 819 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,720 Speaker 1: is the most popular form of entertainment that America produced. 820 00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,120 Speaker 1: The first form of entertainment not before we get not 821 00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:10,840 Speaker 1: to jazz or blues, it was blackface. Blackface by the 822 00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:19,320 Speaker 1: eighteen thirties was a overwhelmingly white performance tradition that literally 823 00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:25,400 Speaker 1: captivated the hearts and minds of urban European descended immigrants 824 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,720 Speaker 1: and Americans. So we moved from blackface in the eighteen 825 00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,840 Speaker 1: thirties to the first major motion picture d W. Griffiths 826 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:36,279 Speaker 1: film is about white people in black face, telling the 827 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,160 Speaker 1: story about race and the emergence of the Ku Kux Klan. 828 00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:41,680 Speaker 1: Then we moved to the first talking picture, which is 829 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:45,200 Speaker 1: about Al Jolson performing in blackface and the jazz singer. 830 00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,640 Speaker 1: I mean, you can't separate American popular culture with a 831 00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:53,879 Speaker 1: fascination about black people. So what Martin Luther King said 832 00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,160 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty seven and his last book was that 833 00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,759 Speaker 1: America has always had a love hate relationship with black 834 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:03,520 Speaker 1: face people. This form of love hate meant at the 835 00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:06,839 Speaker 1: same time that white people found their groove, they got 836 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:10,879 Speaker 1: their swag on the international stage, they then were captivated 837 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,719 Speaker 1: by jazz, they were engaging in trying to be like 838 00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:17,120 Speaker 1: black people. This wasn't just some new thing that happened 839 00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,560 Speaker 1: more recently. This was going way way back. Also meant 840 00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,320 Speaker 1: that what happened on the stage was not supposed to 841 00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:25,120 Speaker 1: happen in the home. It's not supposed to happen in 842 00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:26,880 Speaker 1: the school. It was not supposed to happen in the neighborhood. 843 00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:28,920 Speaker 1: It was not supposed to happen at work. Because those 844 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,719 Speaker 1: two things were considered separate things, you couldn't actually you 845 00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,399 Speaker 1: could perform like a black person. You could make fun 846 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,480 Speaker 1: of a black person, you could try to be a 847 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,520 Speaker 1: cool white guy by being like a black person, but 848 00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:44,760 Speaker 1: you could not have actual equality with a black person. 849 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,920 Speaker 1: You couldn't have a black neighbor. You couldn't go to 850 00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:51,560 Speaker 1: a black doctor, you couldn't accept black blood. When the 851 00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:56,120 Speaker 1: person who invented blood transfusions, Charles Drew, was able to 852 00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:59,920 Speaker 1: save tens of thousands of people during World War Two 853 00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:03,560 Speaker 1: because of the prospect of Negro blood getting in white veins. 854 00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:08,359 Speaker 1: So I can't tell you exactly the psychosis behind all 855 00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:12,160 Speaker 1: of that. That means, it's really in some ways it's unexplainable, 856 00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:17,160 Speaker 1: but it is why black people were subjected to these 857 00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:21,120 Speaker 1: systemic forms of discrimination to keep them out, because the 858 00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:25,480 Speaker 1: fascination was one thing, the equality was something else. How 859 00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,080 Speaker 1: do you explain white people going to watch black people 860 00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,680 Speaker 1: pay play on football fields? One hundred thousand people gathered 861 00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:33,200 Speaker 1: and one of them takes a knee, and all of 862 00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,440 Speaker 1: a sudden, you know, a good chunk of the fans 863 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,360 Speaker 1: say that guy isn't end grate. He doesn't deserve to 864 00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,520 Speaker 1: be in this country. If he doesn't like America like 865 00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:44,319 Speaker 1: it is, why doesn't get the hell out like it 866 00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:51,479 Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense. It's so crazy. Oh good. Going 867 00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:56,200 Speaker 1: back to slavery, Khalil, what was the justification for slavery? 868 00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,560 Speaker 1: Oh man, this is an easy one. Slavery was always 869 00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:03,839 Speaker 1: mean about I was always about making money. So you know, 870 00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:08,480 Speaker 1: you're the first colonists. The New World quote unquote that 871 00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:14,000 Speaker 1: Columbus discovered quote unquote was always about profiteering. Nobody came, 872 00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:20,840 Speaker 1: Nobody crossed the Atlantic to set up some idyllic utopia 873 00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:22,960 Speaker 1: that everyone would chill the hell out and have a 874 00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:26,319 Speaker 1: good time. That wasn't the point. The point was to 875 00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:30,280 Speaker 1: explore for wealth, creation, for natural resources, and so Columbus 876 00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,040 Speaker 1: came for gold, etc. We all know that story long 877 00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,480 Speaker 1: before we get to sixteen nineteen. For example, the French, 878 00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,680 Speaker 1: the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Dutch had been looking in 879 00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:42,480 Speaker 1: the United and in North America and South America for 880 00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:47,960 Speaker 1: various profitable arrangements, and what they settled on, by and 881 00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:53,160 Speaker 1: large was sugar. Sugar brought Europeans into the New World 882 00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:57,680 Speaker 1: like gangbusters, and so they took the land. They harnessed 883 00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:01,080 Speaker 1: the productive capacity of indigenous population from Brazil all the 884 00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,799 Speaker 1: way up. You know of something like eleven to twelve 885 00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:08,319 Speaker 1: million people who supposedly came to the New World. The 886 00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,240 Speaker 1: vast majority of them ten million or so went to Brazil. 887 00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:14,480 Speaker 1: The six hundred thousand, if I had my latest estimates right, 888 00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,240 Speaker 1: came to North America. It was always about the money. 889 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:20,719 Speaker 1: It was always about the money, never anything else. So 890 00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:24,760 Speaker 1: that's slavery. They settled on a system of chattle slavery 891 00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:27,120 Speaker 1: in the United States what would become the United States, 892 00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:29,960 Speaker 1: because that was the best way to ensure that everyone 893 00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,600 Speaker 1: would know that the poor white people weren't the slaves, 894 00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:36,080 Speaker 1: because there were a lot of them, and if they 895 00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:38,799 Speaker 1: were treated like slaves, they might just kill all the 896 00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,880 Speaker 1: colonial elite. I mean, you know, because these folks were 897 00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:44,680 Speaker 1: far away from home. But if you could if you 898 00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:48,840 Speaker 1: could turn an identifiable group of people by virtue of 899 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:53,120 Speaker 1: skin color and by virtue of being from a part 900 00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,719 Speaker 1: of the world, that is West and Central Africa where 901 00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:57,759 Speaker 1: their language they didn't have shared language. If I was 902 00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,000 Speaker 1: an Irish immigrant or an Irish indentary service, I could 903 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:04,160 Speaker 1: speak English, I could know that you were plotting against me, 904 00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:06,920 Speaker 1: that you were planning to cheat me. But if I'm 905 00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:10,160 Speaker 1: speaking Igbo or Eureba and I don't understand what the 906 00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:11,719 Speaker 1: hell's going on, I'm just a lot. I'm a whole 907 00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:14,440 Speaker 1: lot easier for you to exploit. So you're still the Africans. 908 00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:16,799 Speaker 1: You bring them here and then you say, oh, you 909 00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,840 Speaker 1: know what if we define this system as they're not 910 00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:25,399 Speaker 1: as sophisticated as us, their brains are smaller. They were 911 00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:27,080 Speaker 1: meant to do this kind of work. Look at their 912 00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:30,000 Speaker 1: skin color. Their skin color protects them from the heat. 913 00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,320 Speaker 1: We're not supposed to be bent over and filled in 914 00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:35,840 Speaker 1: rice patties doing this kind of work, or tobacco farming, 915 00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,040 Speaker 1: or eventually doing cotton. This was what God intended for 916 00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:45,520 Speaker 1: them to do. Those ideas eventually were the justification for 917 00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:49,440 Speaker 1: the wealth creation and the labor theft and the enslavement 918 00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:54,680 Speaker 1: of people. Racism came first, Slavery came first. Then all 919 00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:58,560 Speaker 1: of the ideas and the justifications and the mythologies came later. 920 00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:01,879 Speaker 1: Where was the humanity in all of this? Were there were? 921 00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,840 Speaker 1: There were there who were the first activists? You know, 922 00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,600 Speaker 1: were there people back then who were like this shit 923 00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:10,879 Speaker 1: is not right? I mean, what are we doing? These 924 00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:15,320 Speaker 1: are human beings? Was there any humanity? Absolutely? Yes, Oliver, 925 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,160 Speaker 1: there was a There were a ton of anti slavery, 926 00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:23,480 Speaker 1: mostly Christian evangelists, people who knew that the Bible didn't 927 00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,759 Speaker 1: sanction slavery, even though there are references to slavery in 928 00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:29,680 Speaker 1: the Old Testament. And there's a lot of authoritarian children, 929 00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,440 Speaker 1: obey your parents, or you know, you'll lose your arm. 930 00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:34,840 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, nobody actually followed that, right, but 931 00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,600 Speaker 1: they did follow slaves, obey your masters. So so on 932 00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:42,720 Speaker 1: one hand, there were Christians who recognized that the story 933 00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:46,959 Speaker 1: of Exodus was the story of God's vengeance directed towards 934 00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:51,720 Speaker 1: those who would enslave the Hebrews. By the same token, 935 00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:56,919 Speaker 1: the financial incentives, right, we talked about contradictions already, were like, hey, 936 00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:00,600 Speaker 1: you know what, you know, God didn't really mean for 937 00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:04,160 Speaker 1: me not to live long and prosper. And the way 938 00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,600 Speaker 1: you live long and prosper in this arrangement is you 939 00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:09,880 Speaker 1: buy you some slaves and you keep it moving. And so, 940 00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:15,759 Speaker 1: while you're right there were plenty of anti slavery activists 941 00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:19,160 Speaker 1: and believers, there weren't enough of them. And the way 942 00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,040 Speaker 1: that we know that there were a few of them 943 00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:23,960 Speaker 1: was because by the time the nation has founded a 944 00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:27,440 Speaker 1: lot of the northern colonies that had lower economic incentives 945 00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:31,800 Speaker 1: to continue slavery, the soil wasn't as profitable for big plantations. 946 00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:34,600 Speaker 1: The economy was beginning to industrialize by the turn of 947 00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:37,640 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century. By the eighteen hundreds, and so they said, 948 00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:40,760 Speaker 1: you know what, slavery always felt kind of icky in 949 00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:44,880 Speaker 1: the first place. This doesn't really feel right, and so 950 00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:47,080 Speaker 1: you know, and we're not making that much money from it, 951 00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:50,280 Speaker 1: so it's a win win win. Most of the northern 952 00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:53,439 Speaker 1: colonies got rid of slavery during the Revolutionary period through 953 00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,720 Speaker 1: gradual abolition laws. They weren't all saints, and even the 954 00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:01,400 Speaker 1: ones who articulated anti slavery beliefs Bill decided because for 955 00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:04,240 Speaker 1: financial decision that you know, they were going to get 956 00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:06,240 Speaker 1: out of the game. And the way we can know 957 00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:10,000 Speaker 1: that their own contradictions continued is because, unlike most Americans 958 00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:12,880 Speaker 1: who think slavery lived on in the eighteen hundreds up 959 00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:16,480 Speaker 1: to the Civil War was a Southern problem, Nearly all 960 00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:20,080 Speaker 1: of the capital in the United States ran through slave 961 00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:24,760 Speaker 1: plantations into the nineteen hundred into the eighteen hundreds. In 962 00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:28,800 Speaker 1: the industrial sector. The as I already said slaves were 963 00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:31,040 Speaker 1: capital that could be traded, not just traded in the 964 00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:33,720 Speaker 1: United States, but traded in London. We didn't get to 965 00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:35,560 Speaker 1: a cotton revolution just because there was a lot of 966 00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:38,600 Speaker 1: cotton plantations. We got to a cotton revolution because in 967 00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:42,320 Speaker 1: the New England towns of Massachusetts and Rhode Island and 968 00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:45,880 Speaker 1: elsewhere there were tons of mills, and those mills were 969 00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:49,600 Speaker 1: spinning the raw cotton coming off of a slave plantation, 970 00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:52,880 Speaker 1: and people were getting rich. The world was being clothed 971 00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,440 Speaker 1: in cotton and people were getting rich from it. So 972 00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:58,560 Speaker 1: even when slavery began to disappear in the North, the 973 00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:03,600 Speaker 1: financial ass and reach of slavery never stopped until the 974 00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:07,200 Speaker 1: end of the Civil War. And so that's where the 975 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:10,480 Speaker 1: idea of sort of reparations come in, because essentially we 976 00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:14,520 Speaker 1: were built on the backs of slaves America. It seems 977 00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:18,920 Speaker 1: I mean, that's it. Yeah, that's it. It's not. It's 978 00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:23,320 Speaker 1: pretty straightforward. Yeah, yeah, So when we talk about reparations, 979 00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:26,960 Speaker 1: how does that look? You know, how does that How 980 00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:33,880 Speaker 1: could something like that be implemented? You know, and explain that. Yeah. So, 981 00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,640 Speaker 1: first of all, reparations is a processing, out in and outcome. 982 00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:39,360 Speaker 1: So the process is the part that we've never done, 983 00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:41,680 Speaker 1: which is just to come to terms with what happened. 984 00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:47,480 Speaker 1: So you actually have to do the truth and reconciliation 985 00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:51,400 Speaker 1: part of reparations as a part of the process of 986 00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:55,320 Speaker 1: arriving at what the recompense is going to be. The 987 00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:59,560 Speaker 1: reconciliation comes first, then the recompense. Now, there's two things. One, 988 01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:04,400 Speaker 1: people do believe that cash payout is an appropriate recompense 989 01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:07,320 Speaker 1: because in a world shaped by money, that is a 990 01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:11,760 Speaker 1: meaningful punishment and a meaningful form contra, a compensation for 991 01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:16,240 Speaker 1: people who have actually been victimized. Victims of the Holocaust 992 01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:19,720 Speaker 1: have been paid reparations and continue to be paid reparations 993 01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:23,960 Speaker 1: by the country of Germany. Japanese attornees were paid. It 994 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:25,800 Speaker 1: wasn't a lot of money, but it was twenty thousand 995 01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,960 Speaker 1: dollars we're paid to the survivors of the Japanese internment. 996 01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:33,280 Speaker 1: There are a few other examples where a state or 997 01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:39,480 Speaker 1: a government paid recompense precisely because that is the recognizable 998 01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:44,280 Speaker 1: legal format of paying someone who has been harmed. Americans 999 01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:46,640 Speaker 1: like to think of this. They're uncomfortable with that one 1000 01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:48,520 Speaker 1: because they're like, well, when does it end? How much 1001 01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:50,440 Speaker 1: money is it? Is it ten trillion dollars and the 1002 01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:52,800 Speaker 1: estimates are pretty much that high. But we're probably going 1003 01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:54,920 Speaker 1: to spend ten trillion dollars in stimulus money by the 1004 01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:57,640 Speaker 1: time the Corona virus is over, and yes, what we're 1005 01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:01,320 Speaker 1: going to be okay, right, So it tells you something 1006 01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:04,920 Speaker 1: about money. The second thing is people confuse a payout 1007 01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:08,760 Speaker 1: for policy, and a lot of conservatives will say, since 1008 01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:13,160 Speaker 1: the Great Society with the world poverty, Americans have spent 1009 01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:16,600 Speaker 1: all this money trying to help black people that already 1010 01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:20,600 Speaker 1: got their reparations. Well, I can see why people might 1011 01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:25,320 Speaker 1: think that, But a policy solution that is primarily universal, 1012 01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:29,280 Speaker 1: where you're targeting poor people rather than black people, because 1013 01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:34,080 Speaker 1: that's what Medicaid did, that's what new housing policies did. 1014 01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:37,240 Speaker 1: Headstart wasn't just for black kids only, it was for 1015 01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:39,360 Speaker 1: a whole lot of low income white kids all over 1016 01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:45,160 Speaker 1: the country. The vast recipients of Great Society big government 1017 01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:48,480 Speaker 1: money going back to the sixties were actually low income 1018 01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:53,560 Speaker 1: white people. So you can't call Great Society programs reparations 1019 01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:56,920 Speaker 1: for black people, even though it is true that African 1020 01:01:56,960 --> 01:01:59,800 Speaker 1: Americans have benefited from those programs. So we haven't done 1021 01:01:59,840 --> 01:02:03,960 Speaker 1: red operations. And so I resist people saying, well, we 1022 01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:06,560 Speaker 1: just need new policies. The best way I could put 1023 01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:09,560 Speaker 1: it is, if we started agree new deal, you would 1024 01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:13,640 Speaker 1: actually start with, as a policy matter, both a check. 1025 01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:16,400 Speaker 1: We'd have to agree on what that is, and you 1026 01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:18,760 Speaker 1: would say we're going to put as many of the 1027 01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:21,680 Speaker 1: people at the at the most vulnerable and the people 1028 01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:24,400 Speaker 1: who have been most victimized by history at the starting 1029 01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:27,320 Speaker 1: line for these infrastructure jobs so that we can rebuild 1030 01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:32,280 Speaker 1: this country. Mm hmm. Yeah. And how do you find 1031 01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:37,760 Speaker 1: those people though? What's the system in you know, finding 1032 01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:41,680 Speaker 1: the people who have been subjected, you know, the most 1033 01:02:41,920 --> 01:02:44,400 Speaker 1: to it. Yeah, well, that's that's not hard. I mean, yeah, 1034 01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:49,760 Speaker 1: there are like thirty five million African Americans, people whose 1035 01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:52,600 Speaker 1: roots go back to slavery, and some of whom their 1036 01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:54,640 Speaker 1: roots don't go back to slavery, but they've been here 1037 01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:57,880 Speaker 1: three or four generations. They've dealt with the same matrix 1038 01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:01,280 Speaker 1: of white supremacist policies, et cetera. There, you know, we 1039 01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:04,400 Speaker 1: all check the box on the Census African American. You 1040 01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:07,320 Speaker 1: start with that, Like, the notion that we ought to 1041 01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:11,840 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time scientifically surgically identifying the most 1042 01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:15,640 Speaker 1: deserving population makes about as much sense as it made 1043 01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:19,400 Speaker 1: to a white Southerner to pick apart whether the very 1044 01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:22,720 Speaker 1: light skinned person in front of them is one eighth 1045 01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:25,800 Speaker 1: black or full black. Like they didn't give a shit, said, 1046 01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:27,760 Speaker 1: you know, we think you're black. Get to the back 1047 01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:30,360 Speaker 1: of the bus or get off the side of the street, 1048 01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:33,200 Speaker 1: or call me mister, or you name it. So it's 1049 01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:36,280 Speaker 1: a bit of an ironic thing that a system that 1050 01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:40,360 Speaker 1: basically said the one drop rule means any identifiable form 1051 01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:42,720 Speaker 1: of blackness you have makes you a second class citizen. 1052 01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:45,560 Speaker 1: Now on the back end of the reparations debate, would 1053 01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:48,720 Speaker 1: suggest that we need to be really very specific of 1054 01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:51,240 Speaker 1: the deserving black people because we don't want to make 1055 01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:53,280 Speaker 1: sure that any there are any cheeters in the mix. 1056 01:03:54,640 --> 01:04:00,760 Speaker 1: M Yeah, sixteen thirty six. Uh oh, I was reading 1057 01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:04,840 Speaker 1: the timeline and it talks about the night Watch. Yes, 1058 01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:08,320 Speaker 1: that in sixteen thirty six, Boston created the night Watch, 1059 01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:11,320 Speaker 1: which led to the first police force in America. Yeah, 1060 01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:15,840 Speaker 1: so the Boston night Watch was kind of like very 1061 01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:20,600 Speaker 1: low level enforcement. The basic idea was, let's make sure 1062 01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:23,160 Speaker 1: some food doesn't set anything on fire and wipe us 1063 01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:28,800 Speaker 1: all out. I mean, that's that's it. So that's that's 1064 01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:33,280 Speaker 1: the that's the origin story of a kind of vigilant 1065 01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:36,680 Speaker 1: even they even called the Romans called them vigils because 1066 01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:40,520 Speaker 1: in Roman time, those same people their job was to 1067 01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:42,840 Speaker 1: keep an eye on things when everyone else was sleeping. 1068 01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:46,439 Speaker 1: Because less again, someone decided that they wanted to burn 1069 01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:52,720 Speaker 1: down the chapel or the mill and ruin everyone's lives. 1070 01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:57,040 Speaker 1: Most of what we would consider policing function in a 1071 01:04:57,080 --> 01:05:00,440 Speaker 1: place like New England, where you know, population of people 1072 01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:04,360 Speaker 1: in indigenous populations were still small relative to the European colonists. 1073 01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:06,160 Speaker 1: Once they rooted out, all the people they didn't want 1074 01:05:06,160 --> 01:05:09,800 Speaker 1: in their community were religious beliefs, you know, they treated 1075 01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:18,120 Speaker 1: people as heretics. They focused on a lot of morally 1076 01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:22,840 Speaker 1: contemptible behavior. So the policing was neighbored a neighbor minister 1077 01:05:23,040 --> 01:05:27,880 Speaker 1: to parishioner. It wasn't so much a uniformed group of 1078 01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:29,840 Speaker 1: people who were like, you just broke the law. You're 1079 01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:32,520 Speaker 1: going in and I read a bunch about some I've 1080 01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:35,680 Speaker 1: did some interviews. You're talking about the North, talking about 1081 01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:41,080 Speaker 1: the South. You know that that that that loophole, that loophole. 1082 01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:44,320 Speaker 1: You know, let's just let's talk about that, just just 1083 01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:46,000 Speaker 1: for a little bit, you know, I want to get 1084 01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:48,520 Speaker 1: into that so to be fair to Kate. So the 1085 01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:54,000 Speaker 1: sixteen thirty six night Boston Night Watch is happening at 1086 01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:58,600 Speaker 1: the same time as various parts of the country are 1087 01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:00,680 Speaker 1: starting to figure out like how to we keep black 1088 01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:05,320 Speaker 1: people from getting together so that they don't plot insurrection 1089 01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:11,360 Speaker 1: or rebel now because things are much more fluid in 1090 01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:15,360 Speaker 1: the early sixteen hundreds. It takes a while for places 1091 01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:19,720 Speaker 1: like Virginia and South Carolina to pass what become known 1092 01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:22,880 Speaker 1: as Negro Acts or slave codes, and the first of 1093 01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:26,040 Speaker 1: them really kick off around sixteen sixty sixteen seventy. But 1094 01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:29,760 Speaker 1: in a nutshell these slave codes is said that eighty 1095 01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:34,320 Speaker 1: black person is presumptively a slave, and all slaves need 1096 01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:37,200 Speaker 1: to be checked for their papers to make sure they 1097 01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:40,320 Speaker 1: have a right to pass. Because any slave that is 1098 01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:45,640 Speaker 1: found without permission on any road will is either suspected 1099 01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:50,360 Speaker 1: of insurrection, rebellion, running away, and can be subject to 1100 01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:53,400 Speaker 1: corporal punishment on the scene. And there was a lot 1101 01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:56,920 Speaker 1: of intermixture between white indentureds and black folks. The slave codes, 1102 01:06:57,040 --> 01:07:00,720 Speaker 1: they begin around the sixteen seventies, whether it's a northern 1103 01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:04,360 Speaker 1: colony or a southern colony, are really like, we need 1104 01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:08,520 Speaker 1: to separate out poor whites and enslaved people because if 1105 01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:13,240 Speaker 1: they get together, we won't win. I mean like we 1106 01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:17,880 Speaker 1: won't win. So the slave codes began to penalize intermixture. 1107 01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:21,600 Speaker 1: They began to decide. They decide, for example, that any 1108 01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:24,120 Speaker 1: child born to a black woman as a slave. That 1109 01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:26,080 Speaker 1: was the first time in the world that had ever happened, 1110 01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:29,120 Speaker 1: because the status of the child usually followed the status 1111 01:07:29,120 --> 01:07:32,040 Speaker 1: of a father in other societies. And that was obvious 1112 01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:37,240 Speaker 1: because that meant that white men, as slave owners could 1113 01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:42,080 Speaker 1: rape their property and the child would then add to 1114 01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:46,040 Speaker 1: their assets, would become a slave as opposed to a 1115 01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:50,320 Speaker 1: free person. And so those those Black codes essentially said 1116 01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:52,800 Speaker 1: that three or more black people gathered was a threat, 1117 01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:58,240 Speaker 1: and they put in place a force of people men 1118 01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:01,560 Speaker 1: of both landless and land owning status, that is, you know, 1119 01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:05,560 Speaker 1: elite men and working class white men. They had to 1120 01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:08,360 Speaker 1: serve in some cases up to a year. They were 1121 01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:10,959 Speaker 1: duty bound. If they didn't perform the duty, they could 1122 01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:14,080 Speaker 1: be arrested, and they had the full power of colonial 1123 01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:18,559 Speaker 1: government and later the anti Bollum States to dispense corporal 1124 01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:23,120 Speaker 1: punishment against any African American on site, including killing them. 1125 01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:27,720 Speaker 1: And that's pretty much the infrastructure of Southern law enforcement 1126 01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:31,120 Speaker 1: for one hundred I'm sorry, sorry for two hundred and 1127 01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:32,720 Speaker 1: fifty years until we get to the end of the 1128 01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:38,320 Speaker 1: Civil War. So you asked about the loophole. So the 1129 01:08:38,360 --> 01:08:42,879 Speaker 1: thirteenth Amendment is the amendment that abolishes slavery. Right, this 1130 01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:45,439 Speaker 1: is this is transformative, this is this is a big deal. 1131 01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:47,439 Speaker 1: This is the moment we've all been waiting for. Right. 1132 01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:52,639 Speaker 1: Except in an amendment that's really pretty short, it says 1133 01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:56,799 Speaker 1: that slavery nor indentury servitude shall exists in the United 1134 01:08:56,840 --> 01:09:01,000 Speaker 1: States accept as punishment for crime. And they're like, whoa 1135 01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:05,920 Speaker 1: wait a minute, Like it actually says slavery shall not 1136 01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:09,840 Speaker 1: exist except for punishment for a crime. So we can 1137 01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:14,000 Speaker 1: have slaves as long as they're criminals. And that's exactly 1138 01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:17,320 Speaker 1: what happens. It's in the earliest days after the Civil 1139 01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:19,960 Speaker 1: Wars over the South has lost. It's not clear how 1140 01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:22,160 Speaker 1: they're going to be brought back into the government. So 1141 01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:24,120 Speaker 1: they go about their business. They're like, you know, if 1142 01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:26,040 Speaker 1: word's over, we'll also be it. We'll just you know, 1143 01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:28,439 Speaker 1: get our lives back together. So they pass a bunch 1144 01:09:28,439 --> 01:09:31,840 Speaker 1: of crime bills in every Southern Confederate state, and these 1145 01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:35,320 Speaker 1: crime bills basically say everything black people would want to 1146 01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:38,320 Speaker 1: do as free people is now a crime. The only 1147 01:09:38,360 --> 01:09:42,080 Speaker 1: thing black people get to do that we think is 1148 01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:45,040 Speaker 1: okay is work for us. If they don't want to 1149 01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:48,280 Speaker 1: work for us, they're vagrant. That's a criminal to criminal offense. 1150 01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:51,240 Speaker 1: If they challenge our authority, raise their voice at us, 1151 01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:54,280 Speaker 1: that's assault. That's a criminal offense. If they try to 1152 01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:59,200 Speaker 1: go vote for political representation, it's not technically an offense, 1153 01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:01,880 Speaker 1: but intimidate them, and then if they get pissed off 1154 01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:04,599 Speaker 1: about it, that's also we'll put them back in jail. 1155 01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:08,280 Speaker 1: And so you have this incredible moment where basically things 1156 01:10:08,320 --> 01:10:10,400 Speaker 1: look a whole like they had just looked in the 1157 01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:12,800 Speaker 1: midst of the Civil War, before the Civil War, and 1158 01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:15,360 Speaker 1: black people who have been free are now being sold 1159 01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:19,400 Speaker 1: at sheriff's auction back to their former plantation masters, not 1160 01:10:19,520 --> 01:10:22,320 Speaker 1: as slaves, but as criminals to work off their fines. 1161 01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:26,000 Speaker 1: It's incredible, and a lot of that gets overturned because 1162 01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:28,479 Speaker 1: we have a radical Congress. You know, these quote unquote 1163 01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:30,920 Speaker 1: radical Republicans. They see this for what it is. They 1164 01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:35,080 Speaker 1: passed the fourteenth Amendment gives everybody equal protection under the law, 1165 01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:38,639 Speaker 1: due process, under the law, birthright citizenship. I mean, it's 1166 01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:43,040 Speaker 1: the most important legislation in the Constitution that some people 1167 01:10:43,080 --> 01:10:46,519 Speaker 1: call the second Founding, is the fundamental basis for all 1168 01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:49,280 Speaker 1: the freedoms that Americans and newcomers to this country, take 1169 01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:53,840 Speaker 1: for granted, women's rights, LGBTQ rights, marriage equality, immigrant rights, 1170 01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:56,880 Speaker 1: so on and so forth. All happened because these radical 1171 01:10:56,880 --> 01:10:59,720 Speaker 1: Republicans say, we have to pass the constitutional Amendment to 1172 01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:05,559 Speaker 1: keep these former Confederates in Czech And so the point is, though, 1173 01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:13,160 Speaker 1: the criminality becomes the most elastic, useful way to put 1174 01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:15,519 Speaker 1: black people back in their place, to make sure they 1175 01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:18,559 Speaker 1: don't have the full access of their freedom. And it 1176 01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:21,160 Speaker 1: lasts for one hundred years, right, That's what I was 1177 01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:23,599 Speaker 1: about to say, and then but that's it. The die 1178 01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:28,679 Speaker 1: has been cast now because of that, the black black 1179 01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:31,759 Speaker 1: people have been sort of labeled just criminals in general. 1180 01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:34,720 Speaker 1: And am I wrong in thinking that that has just 1181 01:11:35,080 --> 01:11:38,759 Speaker 1: that that's carried on? It is just carried on through time. 1182 01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:41,080 Speaker 1: I'm trying to I'm just trying to get to the 1183 01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:43,759 Speaker 1: bab as I said, and I listened as I'm listening 1184 01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:46,679 Speaker 1: to this, I'm just shocked that I am a forty 1185 01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:51,640 Speaker 1: one year old woman who has never learned this. I 1186 01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:55,920 Speaker 1: grew up going granted I didn't go to college, but 1187 01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:59,920 Speaker 1: with private education by the way, at a super liberal 1188 01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:03,760 Speaker 1: arts school as well. Never I only until now, I mean, 1189 01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:06,200 Speaker 1: I I you know, it's not something that I ever 1190 01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:09,240 Speaker 1: sought to understand either. Yeah, I know, I mean you're 1191 01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:12,680 Speaker 1: you're having that moment that my students have, Yeah, like 1192 01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:15,040 Speaker 1: this this is jacked up. They feel they're like they're 1193 01:12:15,080 --> 01:12:18,479 Speaker 1: angry about it because they're like something, something's not right here. 1194 01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:22,240 Speaker 1: So because you know the basics, you see the movies, 1195 01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:25,559 Speaker 1: you know, and you you read certain books that are 1196 01:12:26,080 --> 01:12:30,800 Speaker 1: beautiful and become very popular, but you don't really understand 1197 01:12:30,960 --> 01:12:35,760 Speaker 1: the ins and outs of what really happened. I think though, too, 1198 01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:38,320 Speaker 1: is what I was trying to sort of get at 1199 01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:43,640 Speaker 1: with just it's it's understanding the whole picture. There's a 1200 01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:46,400 Speaker 1: lot of people who when when I post certain things, 1201 01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:50,960 Speaker 1: you know, you read the comments, right, and yes, there's 1202 01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:55,080 Speaker 1: a lot of just straight up racism. Then there's some ignorance, 1203 01:12:55,400 --> 01:12:58,000 Speaker 1: and then there's react. There's people who are just reacting 1204 01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:03,000 Speaker 1: without under and that is the frustrating part for me 1205 01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:07,160 Speaker 1: right now. And I'm a newbie, right I've been inspired 1206 01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:11,080 Speaker 1: by this like I never have before, and now I 1207 01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:15,120 Speaker 1: feel like I want to, at least on the small 1208 01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:18,960 Speaker 1: platform that I have to just at least get people 1209 01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:22,879 Speaker 1: to just think before they react. There's a lot of reaction, 1210 01:13:23,240 --> 01:13:27,320 Speaker 1: and when you really understand the truth of the criminal 1211 01:13:27,479 --> 01:13:31,479 Speaker 1: justice system and where it all came from, understanding the 1212 01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:37,680 Speaker 1: patterns that have existed throughout black history, and it's like, 1213 01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:41,760 Speaker 1: how was there even how was there a chance? How 1214 01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:45,200 Speaker 1: did anyone have a chance when it was this oppressed 1215 01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:48,280 Speaker 1: for this long and now it has become part of 1216 01:13:48,320 --> 01:13:52,479 Speaker 1: the fabric of America. It is now the DNA which 1217 01:13:52,600 --> 01:13:55,800 Speaker 1: needs to somehow be stripped out. And it feels like 1218 01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:59,880 Speaker 1: a big undertaking. But there is a shift, I think, 1219 01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:04,200 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, that's my interpretation. We meet Keanu 1220 01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:09,920 Speaker 1: Reeves and Laurence Fishburne to come up with that we 1221 01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:12,320 Speaker 1: can all take so we can see the matrix. We're 1222 01:14:12,360 --> 01:14:17,160 Speaker 1: all going to the matrix. I have Alison, we have 1223 01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:20,240 Speaker 1: we're on this doc and she's she's pointing me into 1224 01:14:20,320 --> 01:14:24,559 Speaker 1: this direction of this question. So, by the eighteen nineties, 1225 01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:27,600 Speaker 1: as a way to suppress black freedom, white social scientists 1226 01:14:27,600 --> 01:14:34,599 Speaker 1: presented the new crime data as objective, color blind, and incontrovertible. Incontrovertible. Right, 1227 01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:40,400 Speaker 1: that's from my book, that's from your book. How did 1228 01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:45,519 Speaker 1: they do this? Oh man? So this is fascinating. So 1229 01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:49,320 Speaker 1: it was never fashionable to claim to be a racist. 1230 01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:54,960 Speaker 1: This is counterintuitive, all right, So every generation of white 1231 01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:59,120 Speaker 1: Americans consider themselves to be better than the one that 1232 01:14:59,160 --> 01:15:02,639 Speaker 1: came before. So by the time we get to the 1233 01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:05,800 Speaker 1: end of the nineteenth century, right right around the end 1234 01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:09,479 Speaker 1: of slavery, that generation of white leaders. These were people 1235 01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:12,960 Speaker 1: that I write about who were Harvard professors, they were 1236 01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:18,200 Speaker 1: Northern politicians, they were people like Jane Adams, who was 1237 01:15:18,200 --> 01:15:22,120 Speaker 1: a famous social worker. They basically said, like, we're better 1238 01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:25,479 Speaker 1: than our forebears, and a lot of the shit that 1239 01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:28,799 Speaker 1: we've inherited around race and racism is not our fault. 1240 01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:34,799 Speaker 1: It's our job to do better. Right, So their sense 1241 01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:38,760 Speaker 1: of what had come before them kind of let them 1242 01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:42,920 Speaker 1: off the hook for owning the ways that society had 1243 01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:46,760 Speaker 1: already set up forms of privilege. And so what they 1244 01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:51,759 Speaker 1: said is like, because we're not responsible for what's happened before, 1245 01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:56,160 Speaker 1: we can be more objective because we know that we're 1246 01:15:56,200 --> 01:15:58,719 Speaker 1: not as bad as they were. And in a nutshell, 1247 01:15:59,280 --> 01:16:01,920 Speaker 1: they thought of themselves as post racial. I mean, again, 1248 01:16:02,160 --> 01:16:05,719 Speaker 1: I know it sounds crazy, but they had these civil 1249 01:16:05,840 --> 01:16:08,680 Speaker 1: rights laws. Now they're like black people can kind of 1250 01:16:09,120 --> 01:16:12,160 Speaker 1: do their own thing. So even though we know sharecropping 1251 01:16:12,320 --> 01:16:15,240 Speaker 1: was a shitty deal for black people in second class citizenspship. 1252 01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:18,080 Speaker 1: They were a little more ambivalent about it, just like 1253 01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:21,240 Speaker 1: we've known for a long time that mass incarceration and 1254 01:16:21,320 --> 01:16:24,200 Speaker 1: the crime bill of the nineteen nineties built the biggest 1255 01:16:24,240 --> 01:16:26,200 Speaker 1: prison system in the world. But a lot of people 1256 01:16:26,200 --> 01:16:28,880 Speaker 1: were like, it's full of criminals. Why should I feel 1257 01:16:28,880 --> 01:16:32,559 Speaker 1: bad about this gigantic criminal justice system. So when you 1258 01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:35,000 Speaker 1: go back one hundred years to the eighteen nineties, for 1259 01:16:35,040 --> 01:16:39,960 Speaker 1: the first time, Northerners and Southerners, liberals and conservatives, they 1260 01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:43,360 Speaker 1: are all kind of like, well, the crime statistics tell 1261 01:16:43,439 --> 01:16:46,799 Speaker 1: us that black people commit more crimes than white people, 1262 01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:50,120 Speaker 1: And if the crime statistics are just as bad in 1263 01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:53,600 Speaker 1: Chicago as they are in Birmingham, then it can't be 1264 01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:58,400 Speaker 1: about Southerners. It's got to be about them. And that 1265 01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:03,600 Speaker 1: becomes the most dominant argument in favor of segregation that 1266 01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:07,799 Speaker 1: links that moment one hundred years ago to our time today. 1267 01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:12,360 Speaker 1: The crime statistics show that black people have a crime problem. 1268 01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:15,880 Speaker 1: That's why we put all the police in their community. 1269 01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:19,920 Speaker 1: The crime statistics show that black boys, you know, are dangerous, 1270 01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:22,240 Speaker 1: So why should I send my kid to school with 1271 01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:24,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of black kids? So they can get beat up. 1272 01:17:25,040 --> 01:17:28,280 Speaker 1: The crime statistics emerge in eighteen ninety for the first 1273 01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:31,080 Speaker 1: time as a way of talking about black people as 1274 01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:36,080 Speaker 1: inferior and as dangerous without appearing to be racist. I'm 1275 01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:39,360 Speaker 1: not a racist. They have a crime problem. So while 1276 01:17:39,400 --> 01:17:42,320 Speaker 1: it seems like we think of those people as racist 1277 01:17:42,360 --> 01:17:44,040 Speaker 1: because that was a long time ago, and of course 1278 01:17:44,040 --> 01:17:46,800 Speaker 1: they were more racist than us, they didn't think of 1279 01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:49,440 Speaker 1: themselves as racist because they were looking back at slavery. 1280 01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:51,519 Speaker 1: They were saying, well, those are the real racist, We're not. 1281 01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:55,200 Speaker 1: So it's like the pattern just keeps repeating itself. Well, 1282 01:17:55,200 --> 01:17:58,479 Speaker 1: why were those statistics there in the census? Right? Why 1283 01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:01,960 Speaker 1: why did those stistics exist? Are we going back to 1284 01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:04,640 Speaker 1: that thirteenth Amendment loophole? I mean, is that when this 1285 01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:07,120 Speaker 1: sort of started. Yeah, yeah, it's good question because it's 1286 01:18:07,160 --> 01:18:09,479 Speaker 1: important why eighteen ninety, Like where did that come from? 1287 01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:13,000 Speaker 1: So eighteen ninety is really the first census after the 1288 01:18:13,080 --> 01:18:17,439 Speaker 1: end of slavery to be kind of an authoritative report 1289 01:18:17,479 --> 01:18:21,519 Speaker 1: card on black people. Why because this eighteen seventy and 1290 01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:24,480 Speaker 1: eighteen eighty census, as you could imagine, the South was devastated. 1291 01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:27,559 Speaker 1: I mean, it literally needed to be rebuilt. So the 1292 01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:33,599 Speaker 1: census was not that reliable. Secondarily because this question about 1293 01:18:33,800 --> 01:18:36,720 Speaker 1: who black people really were, what they were capable of. 1294 01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:39,160 Speaker 1: Southerners had said, oh, they're going to turn into primitive 1295 01:18:39,240 --> 01:18:43,760 Speaker 1: cannibals and destroy society. Northern abolitionist said, no, they're just 1296 01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:46,559 Speaker 1: like us. They're just black. So this was a debate, 1297 01:18:47,240 --> 01:18:50,599 Speaker 1: and the Civil War didn't solve didn't answer the debate. 1298 01:18:50,880 --> 01:18:52,960 Speaker 1: So what you had is like people like, oh, well, 1299 01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:56,400 Speaker 1: let's see what they're made of. So by eighteen ninety 1300 01:18:56,439 --> 01:18:59,639 Speaker 1: you had the first generation of African Americans who had 1301 01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:03,280 Speaker 1: never been born as slaves. If I'm born in eighteen 1302 01:19:03,360 --> 01:19:06,280 Speaker 1: sixty five, by eighteen ninety, I'm twenty five years old, 1303 01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:10,439 Speaker 1: and demographers, believe it or not, looked at that birth 1304 01:19:10,479 --> 01:19:14,360 Speaker 1: cohort that generation has said, well, let's see how they're doing, 1305 01:19:14,920 --> 01:19:17,679 Speaker 1: because they weren't slaves, and we pass all these civil 1306 01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:21,200 Speaker 1: rights laws. So if they had their freedom and they 1307 01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:24,760 Speaker 1: weren't enslaved, and if they are doing well, great, we'll 1308 01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:27,519 Speaker 1: give them credit. If they're in prison, well then it 1309 01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:31,320 Speaker 1: turns out Southerners were right after all. Now that's why 1310 01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:35,599 Speaker 1: the eighteen ninety census was so important, and the evidence 1311 01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:38,360 Speaker 1: was that black people were then twelve percent of the population, 1312 01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:41,400 Speaker 1: but they were thirty percent of the nation's prison population. 1313 01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:44,360 Speaker 1: They were almost three times overrepresented, which by the way, 1314 01:19:44,439 --> 01:19:46,960 Speaker 1: is about the same today. Black people are still about 1315 01:19:46,960 --> 01:19:49,200 Speaker 1: thirteen percent of the the population, they're about thirty eight percent 1316 01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:53,080 Speaker 1: of the prison population. So the same disparity in that 1317 01:19:53,200 --> 01:19:57,120 Speaker 1: day and age became proof that, oh, black people are free, 1318 01:19:57,360 --> 01:19:59,400 Speaker 1: and look what they do with their freedom. They turned 1319 01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:03,200 Speaker 1: to crime now quick point. There was no asterisk on 1320 01:20:03,240 --> 01:20:07,160 Speaker 1: the data. The data was never about all those southern 1321 01:20:07,560 --> 01:20:12,559 Speaker 1: racist sheriffs, those plantation owners who cheated black people out 1322 01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:14,880 Speaker 1: of their money and told them you don't raise your 1323 01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:16,879 Speaker 1: voice at me, and I'm going to call the cops. 1324 01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:19,360 Speaker 1: It was not about black people trying to vote when 1325 01:20:19,360 --> 01:20:22,360 Speaker 1: it was illegal for them to vote. So all of 1326 01:20:22,400 --> 01:20:26,960 Speaker 1: the racism that used the criminal justice system to try 1327 01:20:26,960 --> 01:20:31,720 Speaker 1: to re enslave black people was what drove the crime statistics. 1328 01:20:32,120 --> 01:20:35,360 Speaker 1: But most white Americans did not have enough patience to 1329 01:20:35,439 --> 01:20:38,040 Speaker 1: figure all of that out, and when black people complained 1330 01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:42,320 Speaker 1: about it, they were like, eh, nah, I'm good, I'm okay. Yeah, 1331 01:20:42,479 --> 01:20:44,880 Speaker 1: you live in your neighborhood, I'll live in mind. And 1332 01:20:44,920 --> 01:20:46,719 Speaker 1: if you try to move in my neighborhood. The cops 1333 01:20:46,720 --> 01:20:49,479 Speaker 1: are going to come get you out of how things 1334 01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:58,320 Speaker 1: went down. Yep, it's crazy shit, crazy, crazy, crazy shit man, 1335 01:21:00,320 --> 01:21:02,599 Speaker 1: white people. Well go ahead, Kate. I was just say 1336 01:21:02,680 --> 01:21:07,240 Speaker 1: racial scapegoating in the twenties and thirties, and you know, 1337 01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:12,960 Speaker 1: how does this tie into police brutality. Yeah. So again, 1338 01:21:13,040 --> 01:21:16,360 Speaker 1: most of us today, my students, the general public think 1339 01:21:16,479 --> 01:21:20,559 Speaker 1: about racism in the past is a Southern problem. They 1340 01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:22,439 Speaker 1: just think like, oh, you know, I get it right. 1341 01:21:22,520 --> 01:21:25,240 Speaker 1: It was really bad. Now it's better. But when you 1342 01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:28,679 Speaker 1: look at the Great Migration Period, which is the time 1343 01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:31,000 Speaker 1: when African Americans began to leave the South, they were 1344 01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:33,720 Speaker 1: running away from lynch mobs, they were running away from sharecropping. 1345 01:21:33,880 --> 01:21:35,799 Speaker 1: They were coming to big cities. They came to Chicago, 1346 01:21:35,840 --> 01:21:37,960 Speaker 1: they went to la after World War Two, they were 1347 01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:39,559 Speaker 1: in New York by the turn of the twentieth century. 1348 01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:42,919 Speaker 1: They're in all these new cities and they're really tiny population. 1349 01:21:42,960 --> 01:21:45,560 Speaker 1: They're only about five percent of the population by the 1350 01:21:45,640 --> 01:21:51,240 Speaker 1: nineteen tens. But their presence elicits or draws out the 1351 01:21:51,280 --> 01:21:55,800 Speaker 1: same kind of resentment, like remember blackface minstrelsy starts in 1352 01:21:55,800 --> 01:21:58,080 Speaker 1: those big cities. It's one thing to make fun of 1353 01:21:58,080 --> 01:22:00,320 Speaker 1: black people with burnt cork on your face. This is 1354 01:22:00,320 --> 01:22:03,080 Speaker 1: another thing to have them as your extraor neighbor. So 1355 01:22:03,120 --> 01:22:06,400 Speaker 1: when black people show up in these communities, white people 1356 01:22:06,479 --> 01:22:09,560 Speaker 1: start to use the law the same way the Southerners 1357 01:22:09,680 --> 01:22:13,400 Speaker 1: use the lynch mob. They're not happy, and they turn 1358 01:22:13,439 --> 01:22:17,440 Speaker 1: against their black neighbors in their neighborhoods, at the workplace, 1359 01:22:18,040 --> 01:22:20,080 Speaker 1: and the police a bet a lot of this. Even 1360 01:22:20,120 --> 01:22:23,000 Speaker 1: so much as white people begin to know, for example, 1361 01:22:23,000 --> 01:22:26,640 Speaker 1: that you can cork your face commit a crime and 1362 01:22:26,720 --> 01:22:28,759 Speaker 1: the police will just be looking for a black person. 1363 01:22:28,760 --> 01:22:31,559 Speaker 1: There's a report published in nineteen forty one that shows 1364 01:22:31,680 --> 01:22:35,360 Speaker 1: instance after instance after instance of white men corking their 1365 01:22:35,360 --> 01:22:38,040 Speaker 1: face to appear like black people so that they could 1366 01:22:38,160 --> 01:22:41,439 Speaker 1: escape scrutiny. I mean, it's astounding, Like there's nothing new 1367 01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:49,680 Speaker 1: under the sun. Right, How important is how important are 1368 01:22:49,720 --> 01:22:53,719 Speaker 1: white are white people in sort of being a part 1369 01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:56,680 Speaker 1: of the solution here, however long it's going to take. Right, 1370 01:22:57,120 --> 01:23:00,559 Speaker 1: how important are white people in this hole? It's the 1371 01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:04,760 Speaker 1: whole show, my friend, It's the whole show. Yeah, that's it, 1372 01:23:06,320 --> 01:23:10,080 Speaker 1: because the truth is that black folks, not everybody, but 1373 01:23:10,160 --> 01:23:12,639 Speaker 1: you know, black folks have been fighting this battle since 1374 01:23:12,680 --> 01:23:17,400 Speaker 1: the beginning. I mean Christmas Addicts proved his patriotism as 1375 01:23:17,439 --> 01:23:20,479 Speaker 1: the first person to lose his life in the Revolutionary War. 1376 01:23:21,360 --> 01:23:25,000 Speaker 1: Black folks have fought in every war in this country, 1377 01:23:25,040 --> 01:23:27,360 Speaker 1: and by the time of Vietnam were at the front 1378 01:23:27,400 --> 01:23:32,439 Speaker 1: lines and disproportionate numbers. You know, there's no aspect of 1379 01:23:32,479 --> 01:23:37,200 Speaker 1: trying to prove one's worthiness for full participation in American 1380 01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:39,800 Speaker 1: life that you can't point to Black people trying to do, 1381 01:23:41,000 --> 01:23:44,519 Speaker 1: including resistance to racism, including you know, so much of 1382 01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:46,479 Speaker 1: what I'm sharing with you is not because I lived 1383 01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:50,160 Speaker 1: back then. It's because black people who were Harvard educated 1384 01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:52,720 Speaker 1: or who like I B. Wells, who was like one 1385 01:23:52,760 --> 01:23:55,839 Speaker 1: of the first black women freedom fighters, had a printing 1386 01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:58,760 Speaker 1: press in eighteen eighty four, a black woman with a 1387 01:23:58,760 --> 01:24:02,280 Speaker 1: printing press pointing out racism. It also got burned down 1388 01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:04,920 Speaker 1: when she defended her friends who had been lynched by 1389 01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:08,559 Speaker 1: a local white mob in Memphis. So we can know 1390 01:24:08,720 --> 01:24:11,360 Speaker 1: how black people were fighting against these things because they 1391 01:24:11,439 --> 01:24:15,479 Speaker 1: left a record of their efforts. But it's never been enough. 1392 01:24:16,240 --> 01:24:19,719 Speaker 1: And as long as the majority of white Americans, whether 1393 01:24:19,720 --> 01:24:22,720 Speaker 1: they self describe as liberals or as conservatives, stand on 1394 01:24:22,760 --> 01:24:26,720 Speaker 1: the sidelines and convince themselves that blacklack people must be 1395 01:24:26,760 --> 01:24:29,479 Speaker 1: doing something to deserve all of this. Then this stuff 1396 01:24:29,520 --> 01:24:33,120 Speaker 1: is going to continue mm hm. And it starts. It 1397 01:24:33,160 --> 01:24:38,799 Speaker 1: starts locally, I mean, as far as voting local politics, mayors, das, 1398 01:24:38,880 --> 01:24:42,920 Speaker 1: assistant das, you know. I mean there's a I mean, 1399 01:24:43,680 --> 01:24:45,479 Speaker 1: you never want to ask what can I do? And 1400 01:24:45,520 --> 01:24:47,960 Speaker 1: I understand that because I asked that question one of 1401 01:24:47,960 --> 01:24:50,679 Speaker 1: my friends, you know, my friend Don. I texted them 1402 01:24:50,680 --> 01:24:52,880 Speaker 1: and I'm like, I just dur when this happened, and 1403 01:24:53,000 --> 01:24:56,880 Speaker 1: I said, look, I'd love to have a conversation. I 1404 01:24:57,280 --> 01:24:58,920 Speaker 1: don't know where my mind's at right now, and it 1405 01:24:59,080 --> 01:25:01,400 Speaker 1: is before we have this conversation. Read this. And he 1406 01:25:01,960 --> 01:25:05,719 Speaker 1: sent me this article that Benjamin o'keeffrod and it really 1407 01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:08,640 Speaker 1: resonated with me and and it, you know, it was 1408 01:25:08,680 --> 01:25:13,120 Speaker 1: this idea that it's not up to black people to 1409 01:25:13,439 --> 01:25:16,360 Speaker 1: educate white people. You have to sort of ask these 1410 01:25:16,479 --> 01:25:20,080 Speaker 1: questions for yourself and do the research and you know, 1411 01:25:20,600 --> 01:25:24,320 Speaker 1: want to learn, you know, which I have been doing. 1412 01:25:24,320 --> 01:25:26,400 Speaker 1: But at the same time, I texted my friend back 1413 01:25:26,439 --> 01:25:29,679 Speaker 1: and I said, look, you educate. You did teach me something. 1414 01:25:30,040 --> 01:25:32,120 Speaker 1: And I said, I don't expect you to read me 1415 01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:33,960 Speaker 1: all the books, but you pointed me to where the 1416 01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:39,599 Speaker 1: library was, you know, and so you know, you hesitate 1417 01:25:39,640 --> 01:25:44,160 Speaker 1: in asking the question, what's it going to take? You know, 1418 01:25:44,280 --> 01:25:47,759 Speaker 1: as far as white people go, what is it going 1419 01:25:47,800 --> 01:25:52,040 Speaker 1: to take to keep pushing this forward? Aside from taking 1420 01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:54,280 Speaker 1: this taking into the streets, which I agree with, that 1421 01:25:54,400 --> 01:25:57,280 Speaker 1: keeps it, that keeps it present, you know, But what 1422 01:25:57,280 --> 01:26:01,080 Speaker 1: what can white people do on the day to day. Well, 1423 01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:04,719 Speaker 1: they can see the victims of police violence, the victims 1424 01:26:04,720 --> 01:26:08,920 Speaker 1: of housing discrimination as their own flesh and blood. I mean, 1425 01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:14,040 Speaker 1: you know, if you felt like this were happening to 1426 01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:18,400 Speaker 1: someone who you cared about because you had empathy for them, 1427 01:26:18,400 --> 01:26:21,840 Speaker 1: because you identify with them, White people are perfectly capable 1428 01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:26,320 Speaker 1: of showing outrage at the things that happened to other 1429 01:26:26,360 --> 01:26:29,680 Speaker 1: white people. So for example, we know, I mean this 1430 01:26:29,840 --> 01:26:32,320 Speaker 1: is not meant to be controversial, but we know the 1431 01:26:32,360 --> 01:26:35,439 Speaker 1: Sandy Hook shooting of all of those children who were 1432 01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:39,280 Speaker 1: killed by a young man who was mentally disturbed, you know, 1433 01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:41,639 Speaker 1: not only made the President cry, but I'll admit when 1434 01:26:41,640 --> 01:26:45,200 Speaker 1: I heard the news that day, I cry because I 1435 01:26:45,280 --> 01:26:48,439 Speaker 1: have small children. I mean, it's just devastating. The shooting 1436 01:26:48,479 --> 01:26:53,120 Speaker 1: at Parkland, which then led to a group of young 1437 01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:58,720 Speaker 1: student activists who helped to spur some more legislative activity, 1438 01:26:58,760 --> 01:27:02,840 Speaker 1: but still not enough. So there's some people call this 1439 01:27:02,840 --> 01:27:04,639 Speaker 1: an empathy gap. I mean, there's a way in which 1440 01:27:04,680 --> 01:27:08,880 Speaker 1: white people don't think about black suffering as something that 1441 01:27:09,000 --> 01:27:13,719 Speaker 1: is meaningful to them. And again I've tried to suggest 1442 01:27:13,760 --> 01:27:16,800 Speaker 1: that there's some psychological wiring. I mean, you know, when 1443 01:27:16,880 --> 01:27:19,679 Speaker 1: your entire society has been built to say that white 1444 01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:24,080 Speaker 1: lives actually matter and everything else is optional, then that's 1445 01:27:24,120 --> 01:27:27,800 Speaker 1: the message that people have even in twenty twenty. So 1446 01:27:28,280 --> 01:27:31,360 Speaker 1: how do you unravel that. I've suggested that you have 1447 01:27:31,439 --> 01:27:34,400 Speaker 1: to do it with very small children. They have to 1448 01:27:34,439 --> 01:27:38,400 Speaker 1: be built differently, because it's hard for adults to see 1449 01:27:38,479 --> 01:27:41,200 Speaker 1: things differently because they've been seeing them the same way 1450 01:27:41,240 --> 01:27:44,360 Speaker 1: the whole time. It's not impossible, but not only does 1451 01:27:44,439 --> 01:27:46,880 Speaker 1: it take a lot of re education for the adult, 1452 01:27:46,920 --> 01:27:49,000 Speaker 1: but they got to own it like you got to 1453 01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:52,320 Speaker 1: own it. You have to actually push back against your instincts, 1454 01:27:52,600 --> 01:27:56,920 Speaker 1: because at some point, your stomach for fighting racism will 1455 01:27:57,120 --> 01:28:01,240 Speaker 1: give out your appetite for being treated like a pariah 1456 01:28:01,320 --> 01:28:04,280 Speaker 1: when you're around your white peers and counterparts and you're 1457 01:28:04,320 --> 01:28:07,559 Speaker 1: the only ones sticking up for what you're seeing and 1458 01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:10,800 Speaker 1: saying like, look, this is not okay, Like yeah, you 1459 01:28:10,800 --> 01:28:13,880 Speaker 1: you end up crazy totally. Oh I've been I have 1460 01:28:14,080 --> 01:28:16,840 Speaker 1: been that guy so many times. And I think this 1461 01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:20,639 Speaker 1: goes to the psychology of just wanting to be liked, 1462 01:28:21,040 --> 01:28:23,799 Speaker 1: just generally. We were talking to this girl, Kate Shots. 1463 01:28:23,800 --> 01:28:26,200 Speaker 1: I don't know if you heard our talk with her, 1464 01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:28,479 Speaker 1: and she was great, but she used this great thing 1465 01:28:28,520 --> 01:28:30,880 Speaker 1: that I loved where there's like calling out and calling in, 1466 01:28:31,479 --> 01:28:34,759 Speaker 1: you know, when you call someone in, And I really 1467 01:28:34,880 --> 01:28:38,839 Speaker 1: loved that. Yeah, that was good. And I am really 1468 01:28:39,280 --> 01:28:44,240 Speaker 1: loving this time of people wanting to learn, all people 1469 01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:48,400 Speaker 1: wanting to learn more about our history and how it 1470 01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:52,599 Speaker 1: has brought us to where we are today. But that's 1471 01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:56,040 Speaker 1: what I'm my hope is that as we keep the 1472 01:28:56,160 --> 01:29:00,920 Speaker 1: momentum and everybody starts really holding themselves accountable to how 1473 01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:03,479 Speaker 1: they're going to be a part of change, that we 1474 01:29:03,640 --> 01:29:06,800 Speaker 1: continue to call each other in, you know, instead of 1475 01:29:08,000 --> 01:29:12,840 Speaker 1: calling everybody out. I think that's the right formulation. I mean, look, 1476 01:29:12,840 --> 01:29:16,120 Speaker 1: I'm a professional educator, and so I can't do my 1477 01:29:16,280 --> 01:29:19,400 Speaker 1: job if it's about calling people out and embarrassing them 1478 01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:21,960 Speaker 1: about what they don't know. The job. My job is 1479 01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:25,479 Speaker 1: to meet people where they are, to help them find 1480 01:29:25,479 --> 01:29:29,280 Speaker 1: a path that they can own, the journey that they 1481 01:29:29,320 --> 01:29:31,680 Speaker 1: need to take, and then meet them on the other 1482 01:29:31,760 --> 01:29:35,120 Speaker 1: side if they choose to stay on that journey. That's 1483 01:29:35,160 --> 01:29:37,920 Speaker 1: the only way this works. And I would say to Oliver, like, 1484 01:29:38,120 --> 01:29:41,800 Speaker 1: you know, the experiences you've described, I think for the 1485 01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:45,000 Speaker 1: most part, I think a lot of the action is 1486 01:29:45,200 --> 01:29:49,080 Speaker 1: really in all white spaces, so the offense won't be 1487 01:29:49,400 --> 01:29:52,599 Speaker 1: directed towards an African American listener who was like, hey, 1488 01:29:52,640 --> 01:29:56,960 Speaker 1: you didn't say that, right it Really the empowerment should 1489 01:29:56,960 --> 01:30:01,160 Speaker 1: come in how white people socialize each other to understand 1490 01:30:01,200 --> 01:30:04,519 Speaker 1: how racism works, because there just ain't enough black people 1491 01:30:04,600 --> 01:30:09,400 Speaker 1: to spread around, you know, and more Latins. I mean, 1492 01:30:09,479 --> 01:30:12,599 Speaker 1: you know, I mean white people are still sixty five 1493 01:30:12,640 --> 01:30:15,880 Speaker 1: percent of the American population. So even if you know, 1494 01:30:16,120 --> 01:30:21,599 Speaker 1: you'd get that best one one person of color for 1495 01:30:21,680 --> 01:30:25,960 Speaker 1: every two that's right, three yeah, two white people. That's 1496 01:30:25,960 --> 01:30:29,200 Speaker 1: the ratio. So a lot of the action really is 1497 01:30:29,240 --> 01:30:35,799 Speaker 1: about how white people own their ignorance, own the problem, educate, 1498 01:30:36,320 --> 01:30:40,920 Speaker 1: and then organize themselves to to change this country for 1499 01:30:41,000 --> 01:30:45,400 Speaker 1: the better. Well, this has this has been so my god, awesome, 1500 01:30:45,880 --> 01:30:50,040 Speaker 1: You're the best I know. I've learned so much and 1501 01:30:50,280 --> 01:30:53,479 Speaker 1: it's just it's this has been a really great hour 1502 01:30:53,479 --> 01:30:56,479 Speaker 1: and a half. I mean, for real. I actually have 1503 01:30:56,520 --> 01:31:01,080 Speaker 1: one more quick question, just real, just about the silver 1504 01:31:01,160 --> 01:31:03,880 Speaker 1: lining of this administration, if there even is one. It 1505 01:31:03,960 --> 01:31:07,400 Speaker 1: has sort of it's almost like smoking out the cockroaches 1506 01:31:07,439 --> 01:31:12,160 Speaker 1: in a way. This has this has made people feel 1507 01:31:12,360 --> 01:31:16,960 Speaker 1: This administration has made people feel racist, people feel more 1508 01:31:17,000 --> 01:31:21,479 Speaker 1: comfortable in coming out. We get to see the real 1509 01:31:22,360 --> 01:31:25,920 Speaker 1: sort of festering of this country the people in it. 1510 01:31:26,439 --> 01:31:29,040 Speaker 1: I think a lot of the times these people are 1511 01:31:29,120 --> 01:31:32,599 Speaker 1: silently feeling this way, and now you know, their voices 1512 01:31:32,640 --> 01:31:35,600 Speaker 1: are louder, and we get to understand how deep this 1513 01:31:35,800 --> 01:31:40,839 Speaker 1: problem really is. And now now it's out, we can start, 1514 01:31:41,400 --> 01:31:46,160 Speaker 1: you know, the process of making it better. Is there 1515 01:31:46,240 --> 01:31:50,759 Speaker 1: any silver lining there in that this administration has brought 1516 01:31:50,880 --> 01:31:53,479 Speaker 1: up a lot of shit and people are in the 1517 01:31:53,520 --> 01:31:56,920 Speaker 1: streets right now and really vying for change. Yeah. I mean, 1518 01:31:57,280 --> 01:32:00,479 Speaker 1: short answer is absolutely. And no one, no one that 1519 01:32:00,600 --> 01:32:03,639 Speaker 1: I know, would have wished that any of this would 1520 01:32:03,640 --> 01:32:07,760 Speaker 1: have happened since twenty sixteen, or certainly since the start 1521 01:32:07,760 --> 01:32:12,040 Speaker 1: of twenty seventeen. Even the pandemic. Right, no one is 1522 01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:17,160 Speaker 1: really responsible for the way that this pandemic has taken 1523 01:32:17,200 --> 01:32:19,479 Speaker 1: so many lives, both here in other parts of the world. 1524 01:32:19,880 --> 01:32:26,080 Speaker 1: But this administration is responsible for not addressing the underlying 1525 01:32:26,520 --> 01:32:31,679 Speaker 1: structural disadvantages that black and brown people, as quote unquote 1526 01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:35,240 Speaker 1: essential workers are born the greatest burden, not having masks, 1527 01:32:35,360 --> 01:32:40,120 Speaker 1: not having the kind of equipment that they need to 1528 01:32:40,240 --> 01:32:43,639 Speaker 1: keep our utilities and grocery stores and healthcare facilities going. 1529 01:32:44,160 --> 01:32:47,559 Speaker 1: And so you put that in place with what happened 1530 01:32:48,600 --> 01:32:52,759 Speaker 1: with Armard Arberry, or with George Floyd, or with Brehanna 1531 01:32:52,800 --> 01:32:56,320 Speaker 1: Taylor or crazy lady in Central Park who might as 1532 01:32:56,320 --> 01:32:58,479 Speaker 1: well have called this black man is about to rape me. 1533 01:33:00,080 --> 01:33:04,280 Speaker 1: And now it's just too much. It's too much, And 1534 01:33:04,320 --> 01:33:06,200 Speaker 1: a lot of people on the sidelines have said, you 1535 01:33:06,200 --> 01:33:08,799 Speaker 1: know what this is it this is the final straw 1536 01:33:08,920 --> 01:33:12,000 Speaker 1: for me and uh and if that's what it took, 1537 01:33:12,240 --> 01:33:14,400 Speaker 1: then it's time to make a lot of good come 1538 01:33:14,439 --> 01:33:18,920 Speaker 1: from it. Yeah, well, thank you, thank you. Hey. I 1539 01:33:18,960 --> 01:33:21,320 Speaker 1: had a great time and I really appreciate you guys 1540 01:33:21,360 --> 01:33:25,400 Speaker 1: asking such great questions. So look forward to getting together 1541 01:33:25,520 --> 01:33:32,160 Speaker 1: you Yeah, hopefully one day. Thank you. Sibling Revalry is 1542 01:33:32,200 --> 01:33:36,320 Speaker 1: executive produced by Kate Hudson, Olira Hudson and Simsarner. Supervising 1543 01:33:36,360 --> 01:33:40,479 Speaker 1: producer is Alison President. Editor is Josh Wendish. Music by 1544 01:33:40,600 --> 01:33:43,560 Speaker 1: Mark Hudson aka Uncle On