1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of My 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, there's guest 4 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: producer Roll over there, and that makes this Stuff you 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: Should Know about dogs. We love dogs, heart them. We 6 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: talk a lot about dogs, have dogs, We have dogs. 7 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 1: Just love dogs in general. They're the best. Train them 8 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: up the end the end, train them right though. Yeah, 9 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: this was an interesting one for me because I am 10 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: terrible at dog training. Uh and I just I do 11 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: a mix of so many things. I'm just my poor 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: dogs don't even know what to do. None of their 13 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: behaviors their fault. Well, yeah, I think my fault. That 14 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: seems to be true among um like like I want 15 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: to say, not high end, but a good dog trainers, 16 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: like professional dog trainers. Trainers. Yeah, they they would agree 17 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: that not just with you, but any dog's bad behavior 18 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: as a result of their human not training them well 19 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: or properly, are at all true. Although I will say, 20 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: I mean any dog can be trained supposedly. I've seen 21 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: those shows. But uh, you know, my dog Nico is 22 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: just so hot wired when someone comes over. Now, she's 23 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: the uh brindle, just so hot wired when people come 24 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: over that I just don't know what to do. What 25 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: do you mean hot wired? Just so excited and like 26 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: so excited she's about to implode into a nuclear fission reaction, 27 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: like just really really low knows he knows, Nico. It's 28 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: like it's very very tough to rain her in when 29 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: someone knocks on that door and comes over. Chill out 30 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: after ten minutes, but it's just hard to not get 31 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: her to jump up on people and stuff because they 32 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: got to be in on it too, you know. Well, 33 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: I would say that probably any high end dog trainer 34 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: would would say that you should give her tranquilizers all 35 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 1: the time, especially when somebody's coming over, but you better 36 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: sleep her life away. Your instinct as a dog owner 37 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: is when someone comes over and your dog jumps on him, 38 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: it's to say, now, Nico, get down, get off of them, 39 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: and even like pull them off. But this article says like, 40 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: like no, even a scolding is reinforcing that behavior, because 41 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 1: all that dog wants his attention, even if it's a scolding, right, 42 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: and and if you if you say no or whatever, 43 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: the dog gets the attention. It prefer positive attention where 44 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, jump up, that's great, but it'll take 45 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: you know, Nico or any other dog will take UM 46 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: will take the the know what they say to do 47 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: is to just ignore it. Just ignore the dog until 48 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: they're doing what you want them to do, and then 49 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: reward the dog. And I think that what you said, 50 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 1: and I'm glad you said this because we really need 51 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,399 Speaker 1: to get this across. What people have been discovering more 52 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: and more about dog training in the last like twenty 53 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: years is that having a dog and raising a good 54 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: dog is requires way more than we previously thought. It did, 55 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: way more attention, way more research, way more patience, way 56 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: more persistence, way more than it used to and and 57 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: rightfully so, I mean it should require this and one 58 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: of the reasons why it does require more is because 59 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: there's been a real shift in mentality over what direction 60 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: you should take to train a dog. I keep saying 61 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: raise a dog. I think that's a good way to 62 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: put it too, but um that it used to be different, 63 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: and that still is that way for some people. Who 64 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: is we'll see, but there there. It used to be 65 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: much easier because you just asserted yourself physically, psychologically, you 66 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: yelled at your dog, you spanked your dog, and you 67 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: basically showed your dog who was boss, and then after 68 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: that they would just kind of behave. They're saying like, no, 69 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: don't do that anymore. That's not good. It really has 70 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: really terrible effects on the dog, harms your relationship with 71 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: the dog, and instead, um, you really need to just 72 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 1: give a hundred and ten percent whereas before you're giving. 73 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: Maybe that's right. So what you're talking about are the 74 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: two main approaches dominance or positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement is 75 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 1: a straight up operat conditioning technique where you reward your 76 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: dog for good behaviors or I guess we shouldn't even 77 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: say good and bad. They say not to do that 78 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: with children and dogs, desirable behaviors and a focus on 79 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,919 Speaker 1: what a dog should do, whereas dominance is a technique 80 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: to discourage unwanted behaviors what you should not do. And 81 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 1: the whole dominance theory is based on this idea, and 82 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: this has been around since well who knows where it 83 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: got its original start, but at least since the seventies. 84 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: They're these dog training monks in Cambridge, New York called 85 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: the news Skeet Monks and they are monks who raise 86 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: and breed German shepherds and write dog training books. Right, well, 87 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: I mean that the monks are supposed to give something 88 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: back to the world. Someone throw beer, and these guys 89 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: trained dogs. I like the beer brewers better. But um, 90 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: it's been at least around since then. But this is 91 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: based on the the idea that dogs are really just 92 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: wolves two point oh in dogs clothing. Yeah, and that wolves. 93 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: We should look at the behavior of wolves and they 94 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: are pack animals with an alpha male and an alpha female. 95 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: Will get more into that, and we can extrapolate that 96 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: to dogs. And so that's how and this is what 97 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,919 Speaker 1: these monks say too, that's what you should be doing 98 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: is mimicking what wolves do. And well it's about to 99 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: say in the wild, not that not the case. Really 100 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 1: what wolves have been studied doing in captivity, which is 101 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: a key point. Right And then like because they have 102 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 1: packs with the leader calling out alpha male and alpha female, 103 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: the alpha male and female um maintain their position um 104 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: through dominance, through acts of like aggression, violence, and that 105 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: they're constantly challenged for these positions. So that so much 106 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: so that this constant struggle over dominance and alphadom, uh 107 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 1: is what shapes wolf society, and that that if you 108 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: take that and you just assume, like you said, that 109 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: dogs are just a different type of wolf, that they're 110 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: so closely related to wolves and descended from wolves, that 111 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: the same kind of mentality applies to dogs. If you 112 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: create that kind of situation in your own home, you 113 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: will have a happier, more obedient dog who understands its 114 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: place in this household, which to your dog is just 115 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: a pack. That's right. Uh. This has started in the 116 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. There were a bunch of studies observing these 117 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: wolf packs and their social structures. I saw it even 118 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: earlier than that. I saw a guy named Rudolph Schenkel 119 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: was doing this in n and that he's the one 120 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: who coined this ide the idea and the term alpha. 121 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: And he was also the guitarist for the Scorpions. If 122 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, I think you're thinking of John Fogerty's guitarists, 123 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: which is I think was his brother Rudy Schenko. Rudy Schenko. 124 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: So uh yeah, So they're they're observing these wolves and 125 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: they're saying that, um, there's a continual pattern in the 126 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 1: in the pack of the male members vying for control, 127 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: challenging the alpha, and then the alpha putting it down, 128 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: usually physically and also psychologically. I guess as much as 129 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: you can get into the psychology of a wolf. And um, 130 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: here's the thing. I mean, should we go ahead and 131 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: say what the deal is? I feel like that's there. 132 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: Should that be a third ex spoiler? No? No, I 133 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: think we can go ahead all right? That I said 134 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: they were studying captive wolves. That's the that's the rub 135 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: here is that they're studying wolves in captivity. And it 136 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: took this the guy and the when was that then? 137 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: The nineties? Yeah, David meck, Yeah, that actually studied wolves 138 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: in the wild. And he's like, that's not what's going 139 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: on at all, because you're it's like studying humans in 140 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: a refugee camp or a prison, Like the behaviors aren't 141 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: gonna be the same. What I'm observing is these animals 142 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: that follow what most animals in the animal kingdom do 143 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 1: or many, which is uh, their their families. And the 144 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: alpha is the alpha because he's the dad, right exactly. 145 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: That Like when they said like, oh, no, wolves are 146 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: constantly you know, under these physical attacks for their status 147 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,959 Speaker 1: is the alpha alpha wolf. Um. They what they were 148 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: saying was like, these these wolves are in a completely 149 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: unnatural setting in situation, and you've got a bunch of 150 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,439 Speaker 1: different alpha's who are trying to figure out who's in charge. 151 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: And yeah, there was a lot of aggression and dominance. 152 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: But this was a terrible thing to base this idea 153 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: on how to train a dog because it was a 154 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: totally artificial situation. And it wasn't until I think, what 155 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: did you say that mec he actually revised in earlier book. 156 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: He wrote a book in nineteen eighty that took these 157 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: earlier ideas and said, yeah, these are totally correct. And 158 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: now he's like, I wish I'd never I got it 159 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: so wrong. Yes, there is dominance, there are alpha's, but 160 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: it's like you said, Chuck, their mom and dad that's 161 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: what we would call him, just in the same way 162 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: that your mom and your dad are the boss of 163 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: you when you're a kid, same thing in a wolf pack. Yeah, 164 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: and dad goes out and gets the food. Uh, moms 165 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: takes care of the kids and protects the kids and acts, 166 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: as you know, the defensive guard over their den. And 167 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: that's just how it works. And then after a couple 168 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: of years. Um, the male puppies, I guess leave. They've 169 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 1: become alpha's of their own families. And he observed the 170 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: stuff over where is it Canada's Elsmere Island every summer 171 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: for thirteen years and they have the that island has 172 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: the best carnival in Canada. It really changed the way 173 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 1: people look at wolves and ergo dogs. Yeah for the 174 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: UM what the revision of it or the earlier stuff, Well, 175 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: the revision of it, sure, yeah, it totally did because 176 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: everybody realized that this dominance based training that people have 177 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: been doing, where you basically beat up your dog if 178 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: there if there is like a sense of like alpha 179 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,199 Speaker 1: dom that your dog is following, your dog is basically 180 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,719 Speaker 1: like my dad is beating me up and yelling at 181 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: me all the time, and I'm just scared and anxious 182 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: about everything. So the dog training world realized that this 183 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: is what was happening, that it was based on faulty 184 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: preliminary original research, and they switched. They change. They went 185 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: to a much more respectful, happier, friendlier UM way of 186 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: training that doesn't involve punishment, it involves basically rewards. An 187 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: extinction is well, we'll look at later on. All right, well, 188 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: let's take a break. We were talking about beating up 189 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: your dog, but when we come back, we'll talk about 190 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: specific techniques the people that subscribe to the dominance theory believe. 191 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: And all right, so you talked about people beating up 192 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 1: their dogs. I know you're sort of kidding, um, but 193 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: there are actual physical things that they say to do 194 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: in dominance training. Uh. And they are as follows. One. 195 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: It's called the alpha roll, uh not R O L 196 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: E R O L L. So this is when the 197 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 1: trainer will are you know, I guess if you're the owner, 198 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: and trainer will pin the dog on its back and 199 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: hold the dog there by the chest or the throat 200 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: until the dog gives in and and stops the struggle. Okay, 201 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: that is slightly different than dominance down. That is pinning 202 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,479 Speaker 1: the dog on its side until the dog stops struggling. 203 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: So same thing. I mean, you've got a dog that 204 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: is doing something that you don't want it to do, 205 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: so you are pinning it. You're physically restraining it in 206 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: an aggressive manner until it just basically dies inside. I 207 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 1: will say that I have have done the dominance down 208 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: before because of a dog fight between my two dogs, 209 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: getting the dogs separated, and then you know, pinning one 210 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: down until they calm down. One thing I saw um somewhere. 211 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: I don't remember where I saw it, but the um 212 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: Actually i've heard it. I heard it a little while ago. 213 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: The way that you break up a dog fight is 214 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 1: you grab them by the back legs. Is to rub 215 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: yourself a steak. Right, you just walked through and be like, 216 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: who's a steak? Why fight when you can have steak 217 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: grabbed the back legs? Yeah, that makes sense. Here's the 218 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: thing though, if you've ever been involved in a dog 219 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: fight up close, it's an adrenaline rush. You don't know 220 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 1: quite what to do. Uh, and it's scary. It's like 221 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: super scary. Yeah, well, your brain just becomes totally Like 222 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: my brain becomes clouded. When like Momo starts barking at somebody, 223 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: I'm like, I get all flustered and whatever. A dog 224 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,359 Speaker 1: fight is like it is one of the most flustering, 225 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 1: like clouding experiences you can you can have. I've heard 226 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: through a water on them, I could see that. I 227 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: could also see him just fighting right through the water. 228 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: If the fight's bad enough. Yeah, I mean my dog Lucy, 229 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: who isn't with us, gotten to a fight with my 230 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: former co dog, Jake, the pit bull who you know, 231 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: my prince justin ended up taking and it was ugly, man, 232 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: and they're both not with us, and they're both really 233 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: sweet dogs, but they looked at each other wrong and 234 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: it was on from the get go, and like Lucy 235 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: took off part of Jake's ear and it was just 236 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: like it was bad. He was scary. You don't know 237 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 1: what to do, right, And so a person who um 238 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: who is who subscribes the dominance theory training says, you 239 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: need to show that both of those dogs that you're 240 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: in charge, and you tell them they're not fighting there, 241 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 1: that they're acting out their misbehaving because they don't understand 242 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: their role. But at the same time, I would be like, well, no, 243 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: it sounds like that doesn't necessarily mean that they don't 244 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: think you're the alpha. They're trying to figure out what 245 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: their position over one another in this packet or just 246 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: dogs being dogs, man, that's another way to look at it. 247 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: For sure. You know, like Lucy got attacked at a 248 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: dog park when she was young, and from that day 249 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: forward was you know, if a dog was slightly aggressive, 250 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: it was on and scary. Yeah, so we couldn't take 251 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: around other dogs, that's the up shot. Yeah, and they 252 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: would say so. One of the other things I want 253 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: to call out here, rather than waiting, um, when a 254 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: dog acts aggressively, every trainer I've seen on both sides 255 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: says that it's fearful that the dog is actually afraid. 256 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 1: That was for sure Lucy's case. Yeah, so yeah, and 257 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: it's that's why I thought of that, because you know, 258 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: she had a negative experience and she was afraid, so 259 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: she would act aggressive in the face of fear. So 260 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why people criticize dominance training, as 261 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: we'll see, is that you're physically and aggressively punishing aggressive behavior. 262 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: So you're you're punishing a dog for feeling fearful, which 263 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: is going to make it more fearful of whatever it 264 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: is it's afraid of at that moment, which means it's 265 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: actually probably likelier that it will become more aggressive rather 266 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: than it's like a human kid too. You know, if 267 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: you have a kid who has learned to be aggressive, 268 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: in your way of discipline them is to hit them, Like, 269 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: what do you think is gonna happen? I don't know, 270 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: I don't know anything about human kids. I only know 271 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: about dogs. They're the same. So back to the uh, 272 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: the physical methods of dominance training. There was alpha role 273 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: dominance down. There's the scrub shakes when you grabbed the 274 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 1: dog's jowls they're scruff with both hands and shake it 275 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: really hard and stare them, stare them in the eyes. 276 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: Leash jerk if you're on a on a walk with 277 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: your dog and they're pulling you let them get up 278 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: ahead and then jerk back really really hard. Uh. And 279 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: then using choke collars or pinch collars or shot collars 280 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: uh instead of like the more humane gentle leaders what 281 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 1: they call them. This sort of looks like a muzzle, 282 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: but when the dog pulls, it just sort of pulls 283 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: their nose down and they don't like that. Right. The 284 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: that's for the other kind. Physically hurting them when they 285 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: pull on the leash correct or when you jerk the 286 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: leash back right or the choke pinch or shot collars 287 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: are all all dominance or there's psychological methods to um 288 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: staring at the dog until the dog looks away like 289 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: I'm boss, who's gonna blink first? You dog? You? Or 290 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: Growling at a dog or making dog noises to the 291 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: dog is another dominance technique. Yeah, psychological dominance. So so 292 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: you've got all these techniques and UM as far as 293 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: dominance training goes. If you employ them in a UM 294 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: consistent manner, eventually your dog is going to figure out 295 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: who's boss. And they the people who subscribe to dominance 296 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: theories say this is actually a gift to your dog, 297 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: because if your dog is acting improperly, if it's misbehaving, 298 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: if it's being aggressive, it's asserting itself because it doesn't 299 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: realize that you're the alpha because you haven't asserted yourself 300 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: over your dog, and so somebody's got to be the alpha. 301 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: So this dog is confused and is trying to step up. 302 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: So if you assert your dominance over this dog, you 303 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: will reassure that there is an alpha in charge and 304 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: it can just relax and be a good, happy dog. 305 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: That's what people who who subscribe to dominance theory say 306 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: is the whole purpose of dominance theory. Right on the 307 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: other side, you have people saying, no, your dog is 308 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: not just becoming super happy because they know you're in charge. 309 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 1: They're going on into shutdown mode. Basically, because they're afraid 310 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: to do stuff and they're basically living in a state 311 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 1: of shutdown mode because they're afraid of being alpha rolled 312 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: or barked at or pinned or whatever. Yeah, and so 313 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: that what they'll do is is here's the thing, and 314 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: this is really important to remember. Nobody's saying dominance training 315 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: doesn't actually, at least in the short term, curb problem 316 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: behavior and dogs. But the way that you're doing is 317 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: actually like breaking the dog's spirit. You're not you're not 318 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: providing it this comfortable position in the household. It's pack 319 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,719 Speaker 1: You're basically just breaking a spirit so that it it 320 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: it doesn't do anything until you tell it to do something. 321 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: It's that shutdown that you were just talking about. And 322 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: people who subscribe to the other way. So no, there's 323 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 1: a there's a different, better way to do this which 324 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: doesn't involved breaking the dog, which allows the dog to 325 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: lead a happier, healthier life. And and there's um what's 326 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: called the least intrusive, minimally aversive list of how to 327 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:18,199 Speaker 1: train a dog and using dominance theory techniques are at 328 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: the bottom of this list. Yeah, I think they listed 329 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: six things, and that was number six was positive punishment, 330 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: which is a bit of a contradiction in terms I guess, 331 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 1: but yeah, let's talk about that. Yeah, that's what the 332 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: whole list or just the positive punishment, well, just about 333 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,480 Speaker 1: the punishment problem. Yeah, I mean, that's when you're delivering 334 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: what they called an aversive consequence or I guess averse 335 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 1: consequence to reduce probability that a behavior will occur. Yeah. 336 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: So in this in this sense, positive and negative doesn't 337 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: necessarily mean like good or bad. It means the introduction 338 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: or the removal of something. So so you can have 339 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 1: a negative reward where something bad is removed in reward 340 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: for the you know, the dog doing the behavior you want. 341 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: And then you also have negative punishment, where you remove 342 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: something good when the dog does something you don't want 343 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: it to do. You also have positive rewards, which is 344 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: basically giving a treat to a dog it does something 345 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: good and you say hey, here you go, or praise 346 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 1: or something like that. And then positive punishment, which sounds 347 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,479 Speaker 1: like okay, that's an alright kind of punishment, that's actually 348 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: the worst of all of them as far as the 349 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 1: most professional dog trainers are concerned. That is where you're 350 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: introducing punishment because the dog is doing something. So you're 351 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: yelling at the dog, you're alpha rolling the dog, you're 352 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: spanking the dog, you're introducing a punishment as a response 353 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: for an unwanted behavior in this hope to train the dog. 354 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: And so they say, well, here's there's the basic problem 355 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: right there with dominance theory and dominance training is that 356 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: eventually you're going to come to positive punishment. It's woe 357 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: even into the fabric of dominance theory. And if you're 358 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: punishing your dog, if you're yelling at your dog or 359 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: outa rolling your dog, you're going to create this shutdown dog. 360 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: And what's more, it seems that positive punishment, as far 361 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: as training techniques, conditioning operat conditioning techniques go, is the 362 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: least effective of all of those four. And not it's 363 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: not just dog trainers saying that. Even B. F. Skinner himself, 364 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 1: who created a Skinner box and raises poor little barefoot 365 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: electrocuted children, and he said, yes, positive punishment is the 366 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 1: least effective of all of these. Yeah, they say, the 367 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: number one on that list is health, nutritional and physical factors. 368 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: And this is basically setting up your house then being 369 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: assured that your dog is like healthy and well fed 370 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: and like there's nothing physically wrong with a dog. Like 371 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: if your dog is peeing in the house and won't 372 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 1: get housebroken, they're saying, the first step you should do 373 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: is take your dog to a vet and make sure 374 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: it doesn't have like a urinary tract infection. Yeah, I mean, 375 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: let's go over this list, because that's really helpful. There 376 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: was um The Association of Professional Dog Trainers have a 377 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: list of misinterpretations. Urinating the house is one of them. 378 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 1: A dominance explanation would be like, no, they're peeing on 379 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,719 Speaker 1: your bed, because they're trying to show say like this 380 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: is my territory. It's it's a really paranoid place to 381 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: come from, kind of you know, all the dog, the 382 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:27,479 Speaker 1: dog thinks it's better than me. What is really going on, 383 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,919 Speaker 1: they say, is that it's just the house training has 384 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: been inconsistent, Yes, which or you have a urinary tract 385 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 1: infection or something right, and you would find that out 386 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 1: by taking that first step, which is taking the dog 387 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: to the vet to make sure there isn't a health 388 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 1: or medical issue that can solve this problem, because again, 389 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: it all comes down to this problem behavior. Why is 390 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: the dog doing it or what do you want the 391 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: dog to do instead right, jumping up on people. This 392 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: is Nico Steele. A dominance explanation would be that that 393 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: she's doing this to assert their height and rank over you, 394 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 1: like I'm just as big as you are, Whereas what's 395 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: really going on is she wants to lick your face 396 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,880 Speaker 1: and it's fun and she's excited and wants to say hello. Right, 397 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: So what you would do is you would say, teach 398 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: your dog to sit um whenever you go to open 399 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: the door something like that, or if your dog is 400 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: jumping up um, to to ignore it until it's sitting 401 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: with all all four paws on the floor and then 402 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 1: you reward it. Because it's, like you were saying, one 403 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 1: of the easiest ways to train your dog is accidentally, 404 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: And what you're doing is training your dog to do 405 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 1: all the stuff you don't want your dog to do. Yeah, 406 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: I mean, you come home from vacation and Nico jumps 407 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: up on you, like your first instinct is to kiss 408 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: her face and tell her how good it is to 409 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: see her, and that's the wrong thing to do. Like 410 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: I'm good at that, Like I can come in and 411 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: just turn my back and ignore and it works. But 412 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 1: you gotta get people coming in the house, all your 413 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: friends coming in and family, like everyone's got to be 414 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,040 Speaker 1: on board. Yeah, Like like Momo barks that stranger is 415 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: when they come into her house. She does not like, 416 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: like say a contractor coming over to to bark or 417 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: to come to her house. She just doesn't like it. 418 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: So ideally I would give the stranger a treat, say 419 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 1: the contractor treat. I'd be like, by the way, can 420 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: you show up five minutes early to our appointment. I'm 421 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: gonna give you a dog treat. Slide a treat under 422 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 1: the door. You and I are going to go and 423 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: sit and get situated at the at the table, at 424 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: the dinner table, and we're gonna just talk calmly. And 425 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 1: then my wife is going to bring my dog into 426 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: the room and you're going to give her a treat. 427 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: Don't stand up in the presence of my dog. Once 428 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: my wife removes our dog, then we can go on 429 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: with our appointment. That would be the ideal thing. What this, 430 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: what this thing says to do is Okay, instead of 431 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 1: all that, just keep your dog outside. Go hang out 432 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,719 Speaker 1: outside with your dog. Make it say your dog has 433 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: no idea. Anybody even came over. Yeah, that's easier sometimes. Yes, 434 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,359 Speaker 1: that's the number two thing that you're supposed to do 435 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: after taking the dog to a vet. Um is just 436 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: changing the dog's world so that the problem behavior doesn't exist, 437 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: because the thing that creates that problem behavior isn't part 438 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: of the dog's world anymore. Yeah, the situation last week 439 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: where I was out of town. You know, we had 440 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: our house worked on in the contractor. The framer guy 441 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: who was there most of the time, like hands on, 442 00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: really loves dogs and loves our dogs, but he had 443 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 1: to come over and do something. He hadn't been over 444 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: in a while, and I was gone, and I was like, 445 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: you know, I can tell you how to get in 446 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: my house if you want to go put them in 447 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: the in the bedroom so the plumber can come in. 448 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: I was like, this is on you, man, if you 449 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: want to do this. He's like, sure, I'll do it. 450 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: And he came in and texted me afterwards that said 451 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: that Charlie. He said, as soon as I walked in, 452 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 1: bolted and ran into the bedroom basically, and that Nico 453 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 1: like barked and barked, and then it was just like 454 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: downstairs trembling and afraid, and he eventually was like, come on, Nico, 455 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: come on up, and he got her into the bedroom. 456 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 1: That is that is so sad. It's but it's also 457 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: really sad too when you think about your dog, um, 458 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: you know, barking or being aggressive or something like that, 459 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: when you're just like, oh, it's so obnoxious, be quiet, 460 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: But then if you realize like they're actually doing it 461 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: because they're scared, witness makes the whole thing just heartbreaking. 462 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 1: But I think it's a really important thing to remember 463 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: too because it changes your perspective on it. It It goes 464 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: from being like, stop being aggressive, stop being hostile, you know, 465 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: to to realizing you're saying, stop being afraid, you know, 466 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,199 Speaker 1: stop being a chicken. That's no way to talk to 467 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: something that you love. And that holds true for a 468 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: dog too, so to think that really kind of changes 469 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:45,479 Speaker 1: your perspective. The advice of my monologue, uh and then 470 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: a couple of other behaviors pulling on a leash. A 471 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 1: dominance explanation might be that no, they're trying to assert 472 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: that there the Aleph and get out in front of 473 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 1: you and be in charge. Whereas what's really good going 474 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 1: on as your dogs excited to be on a walk 475 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: and they love to get out there and smell things, 476 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: and um, that's why they're pulling. Uh and then finally 477 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: running through the doorway. First I get run over by 478 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 1: my dogs all the time trying to get outside. Um. 479 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 1: And the dominance theory is that they're trying to push 480 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: you out of the way to show you there in 481 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: charge again. Uh. They what they're doing is pushing out 482 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 1: of the way because you're blocking them from getting outside 483 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: where they love life a lot more. Right So, and 484 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: this really kind of I think, does a beautiful job 485 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: Chuck of putting side by side the dominance theory and 486 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: the um the What is the positive positive reinforcement I 487 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: guess yeah, positive reinforcement theory, those are the two main ones. 488 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: But just the the almost night and day ways that 489 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: they see dogs like what makes dogs dogs? That to 490 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: a dominance theory person, the dogs just like I'm in 491 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: charge of you, get out of my way. Where the 492 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,679 Speaker 1: the positive reinforcement theory says, no, dog just likes to 493 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: go have fun and it's really not very concerned with, 494 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: you know, social niceties of letting you go first. It 495 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: wants to go have fun immediately. It doesn't really have 496 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: anything to do with you it's a dog exactly. I 497 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: just I don't know if if everyone's figured this out 498 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 1: or not, but I tend to fall a little more 499 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 1: on the positive reinforcement side of that same here. So 500 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: let's take a break then and talk about a little 501 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 1: bit more about the problems with dominance training, but then 502 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: the joy and the goodness that is positive reinforcement beautiful. Alright, 503 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: So earlier in the show, you said that dominance training 504 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: can achieve results. No one argues that that can be 505 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: effective at times, but we talked about why it's effective 506 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: that your dog is being shut down. Essentially, your dog 507 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: might be fearful. Uh. And one of the other problems 508 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: besides harming the relationship between you and your dog that 509 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: you might even know it's harmed, is that if your 510 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: dog is aggressive at all, this can really ramp that up, 511 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: and that can be a big problem. Yeah, because again, 512 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: you're punishing your dog for being fearful if it's if 513 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: you're punishing it for aggressiveness, and you're just making it 514 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: more fearful. So two of the other big problems that 515 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: can arise from dominance training our injury to the dog. 516 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,040 Speaker 1: If you say, you know, do an alpha role too 517 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: hard and you break its rib or something like that 518 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: that can happen, or if you're instilling further aggressiveness in 519 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: the dog, an injury to you or the trainer or 520 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: somebody else. Yeah, there was a study in two thousand nine, 521 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: so it's a little old, but I imagine it's still 522 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: pretty true. Uh, published in the Applied Behavioral Science. UM. 523 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: I guess journal, Um extravaganza. Uh. They serve a dog 524 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: owners who would reported problem behavior and a rssian. They 525 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: completed the survey about their training techniques and of the 526 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: dogs that were physically punished, hit or kick, which I 527 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: can't even go there in my mind, of those dogs 528 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: responded with aggression, duh um. And then what else if 529 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: you that a dog it was for dogs, Um became aggressive? Okay, 530 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: that staring was the scruff shake of dogs. Um, we're 531 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: aggressive in response. And the alpha role was right. And 532 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: this is one reason, another reason why there's a near 533 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: consensus despite what Caesar Milan might say on dominance training 534 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: not being the way to go. The Association of Professional 535 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: Dog Trainers, International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants, American Veterinary 536 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: Society of Animal Behavior, Pet Professional Guide, and the Certification 537 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: Council for Professional Dog Trainers all say this is not 538 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: the way Caesar. Yeah, they say it's like, not only 539 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: is it bad for the dog, it's not rooted in science. 540 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: That the whole thing that dominance theory was based on 541 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: is not correct. Yeah, the whole wolf thing. Yeah, but 542 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: Caesar will still say I mean, he's still out there 543 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: saying nope. Animals love, they want to be in a 544 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: pack and they want to have a strong pack leader 545 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: and that is up to you to be that pack leader. Yes, 546 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: So this article kind of says that, Um, basically the 547 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: people who are in the dominance are amateur dog trainers, unaccredited, 548 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: and UM, I guess not high end is the way 549 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: I would have put it, you know, twenty minutes ago. Um, 550 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: and the a lot of pet dominance training, UM, tool 551 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: industry people like that sell the shot colors are yes. 552 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: And then people who watched Caesar melt right because he 553 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: is He's a force onto himself as far as dominance 554 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: training goes, because people watch his show and they're like, oh, wow, 555 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: this really works. You can go to a dog and 556 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: the dog will like stop doing what you want to do, 557 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: and and so he does. He produces results. But again 558 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: that that question of what what kind of a dog 559 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: or what kind of a mentality he's producing in the dog, 560 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: or that that kind of training produces in a dog, 561 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: that's the that's what's that question that's also heavily edits 562 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 1: the TV show. We have to remember it is well, 563 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: you know, he got in a lot of I don't 564 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: want to say he got in a lot of trouble 565 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: um water, maybe a little bit. But there was like 566 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: a petition that got like ten thousand signatures to have 567 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: a show canceled on National Geographic because, um, yeah, the 568 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 1: pig thing where he there was a French bulldog that 569 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: had killed two pot bellied pigs in its past and 570 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: the owner was like, I don't want my dog to 571 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: kill pigs anymore, and Caesar is like, I have just 572 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: the idea. Let's put it in a pen with another pig. 573 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: And apparently it was going very well, but then um, 574 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: they let it off of the lead and the dog 575 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: atta at the pig and took a chunk out of 576 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: its ear. And they aired this um and I'm sure 577 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: they aired it because they were trying to be true 578 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: to their documentary roots, I guess, rather than just editing 579 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: the whole thing out and being like, well, we can't 580 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: show that they included it, and there was a lot 581 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: of outrage and they were like, this is a clear 582 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: act of animal abuse, like this pig was harmed because 583 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: of this shows actions and seizure bonds actions. And there 584 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: was an investigation by Los Angeles County, I think um 585 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: to see whether you know, they could charge him with 586 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: animal abuse, and they cleared him eventually, but it created 587 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: it produced this round of um of interviews for him, 588 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: a lot of publicity for the show, but also he 589 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: did a lot of interviews and in every single one 590 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: he said, I understand that you know, the people who 591 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: are who are who prompted this investigation care about animals, 592 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 1: and they are you know, the people who are doing 593 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: the investigating are doing their job and they should and 594 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: it's it's great and I'll cooperate. But in every single 595 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: one he stood by dominance training. He did not question 596 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,719 Speaker 1: it for a second. That's true. He still believes in it. 597 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: So on the other side, we have positive reinforcement, and 598 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: that's generally like a two pronged thing where you reward 599 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,439 Speaker 1: good behavior. And this next part is really key because 600 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: it's easy to reward good behavior but not accidentally reinforcing 601 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,280 Speaker 1: bad behavior, which she talked about earlier, which is someone 602 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: comes in, Nico jumps on them in my instinct is 603 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 1: to pull her off and say, no, I am reinforcing 604 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: that bad behavior just by giving her even negative attention, 605 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: right exactly. So, So what's the whole point of positive 606 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: reinforcement is ignoring the behavior that you don't want to happen, 607 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: which means you're not accidentally reinforcing bad behavior, and then 608 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: rewarding the behavior that you do want to happen. So, 609 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: in the case of Nico, the um the part where 610 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: you're ignoring it's called extinction, where this idea that the 611 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: unwanted behavior goes away if you do nothing. Um, when 612 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: you come in and she's jumping up, you just turn 613 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: your back to her and ignore and just go about 614 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: your business, say, unpacking your shoes. Maybe you've got a 615 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: wet bathing suit that you need to get out of 616 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: your suitcase with that kind of thing. You know, you've 617 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: just come home from a beach vacation. Did she does 618 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,320 Speaker 1: this when I go get the mail? Okay? All right, wow, okay, 619 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,359 Speaker 1: So you come back and you're looking to your your mail, 620 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 1: your Garnet Hill catalog, and you know, you're thinking, maybe 621 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: I will spend a little more on Halloween decorations than 622 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: last year. And um, you you you're ignoring her. You're 623 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: just doing your thing. And then the moment she sits 624 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 1: quietly and looks up at you, Bam, you're there with 625 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: the treat, with the tug of rope, tug of war rope, 626 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 1: the verbal praise. You're like, you're right there. And then 627 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: you go back to it. She jumps up, and you 628 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: go right back to your mail. You just totally ignore it. 629 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: In the moment her feet are on the floor, Bam, 630 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: you're right back there with another treat. So you're you're 631 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: very consistently. This is really really key. You're consistently rewarding 632 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 1: the behavior that you want, and you're consistently ignoring the 633 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 1: behavior that you don't want. Yeah, and again, I'm pretty 634 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: good at about this with myself. Um, and she doesn't 635 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: jump on me, but it's just it's with other folks. 636 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,919 Speaker 1: So that's the thing. I got to really really work on. 637 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,760 Speaker 1: Some of our closest friends that come over a lot, understand, 638 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: and they ignore her and try and turn their back 639 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: and stuff. Until she comes they hate me. Oh goodness. 640 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: Another thing you can use is the clicker um, and 641 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: that is uh, something you hold in your hand that 642 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: makes us clicking sound and you just sort of reinforce 643 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: that along with the treat. But they hear that click, 644 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: and I guess it's sort of like that Pavlovian response 645 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: where the precision of that click it makes it easier 646 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,959 Speaker 1: for them to to put two and two together. And 647 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,240 Speaker 1: pretty soon you can make that click and they know like, oh, 648 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: you know, maybe I'll just sit down and behave because 649 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: the treats coming my way. Well, you're with the click. 650 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: I think you're more marking the behavior. Like there's five 651 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: different things that she's doing as she says settling in 652 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,320 Speaker 1: or whatever. Maybe she was looking up out the window 653 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: and you said good girl because she was sitting down. 654 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: But to her, you're saying good girl because she's looking 655 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: out the window. If you clicked, if you clicked the 656 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 1: moment she sat down and settled, um, she would know 657 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: that what you were talking about was the seating, the 658 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: sitting part, rather than looking out the window part. The 659 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,320 Speaker 1: clickers just it's it happened so fast. It allows the 660 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,319 Speaker 1: dog to mark that behavior. More than your praise, right, 661 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 1: because it takes a lot longer to say Nicol, you're 662 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 1: so good then that little click, So you'd want to 663 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: click first and then hit her with the praise. But 664 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: the click is like, oh that thing, that's right. And 665 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: the consistency that you were talking about is so key 666 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 1: because you can be going down a good path for 667 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,799 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks and undo it all in a 668 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: couple of days or even a single action if you're 669 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 1: not consistent with you know, this training. But but it's 670 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,280 Speaker 1: like with the being in the house thing, maybe the 671 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: house the house training that you engaged in originally did 672 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: you didn't quite finish, You weren't quite consistent enough, so 673 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: go start over. It's not like it's like, oh, well, 674 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: I'll never have a nice rug again. My dog just 675 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: peas in the house. It's like, no, you you go 676 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,359 Speaker 1: back to house training your dog or you know, if 677 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 1: you have this, uh whatever, the unwanted behaviors, you just 678 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:20,879 Speaker 1: have to go back to it and do it again 679 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,479 Speaker 1: and your dog will pick it up um probably way 680 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,359 Speaker 1: faster the second time, and you just stick to it. 681 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: It's just more consistency, which is why I was saying 682 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: earlier it's you know, a little more involved owning a 683 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: dog than we used to think it was. But the 684 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 1: dogs that were, you know, like sharing our lives with are, 685 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 1: I would argue, are way happier and healthier mentally and 686 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,879 Speaker 1: probably physically too than say they were thirty years ago. 687 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: In general. Yeah, and there is a certain amount you know, 688 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: you don't get dogs and cats if you want to 689 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,839 Speaker 1: have um, well it is not necessarily true, but if 690 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: you need a pristine house that's hairless, you probably shouldn't 691 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 1: have pets. Like, there's a certain amount of giving into 692 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: the fact that, um I mean, and you may have 693 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 1: rules where like pets aren't allowed on any furniture, which 694 00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 1: is great. That helps, but like in my house, their 695 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 1: furniture dogs. So we know, our sunroom couch is never 696 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 1: going to be the nicest, greatest couch in the world. 697 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 1: It's always gonna have some dog here on it. Uh. 698 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: And that's just the way it is. That's fine with us. Yeah, 699 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: you me and I are defiant. We have not one 700 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:32,879 Speaker 1: but two white couches. Yeah, luckily MoMA doesn't shed. But 701 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 1: as as Mom ever thrown up on the couch, no, 702 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,399 Speaker 1: she hasn't. And I know now that I'm saying this 703 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: back at home, she's throwing up on the couch for 704 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: the first time ever. Are you know my friend Justin Uh. 705 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,280 Speaker 1: He and his partner Melissa have a great dog named Fully, 706 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: who is Nico's best friend, and Fully is not allowed 707 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,359 Speaker 1: on their furniture and is really good about it, but 708 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 1: he is allowed on our furniture. So when Fully comes 709 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:00,840 Speaker 1: over for spend the nights and played times, he fully 710 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: milks that stuff. But it doesn't they and I was 711 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: worried it was gonna mess them up at home, but 712 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 1: it hasn't. He gets a difference. Yeah, I think probably 713 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,879 Speaker 1: because dogs are a lot smarter than than we give 714 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: them credit for. Probably, he probably likes a spender. Two. 715 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: I can tell you Mama was very smart. Yeah. My 716 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 1: dogs are smart and dumb, you know. Yeah, Okay, that's 717 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:23,919 Speaker 1: a good way for a dog to be too. It's 718 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 1: like sometimes you think, man, what a smart dog, and 719 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,320 Speaker 1: then you see them eating like poop out of the 720 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: cat litter box and be like, wow, you're really not 721 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,360 Speaker 1: very smart. After and they're like, oh, it's so God. 722 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:35,800 Speaker 1: Or they come around the corner with cat litter on 723 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: their nose. They're like, what I wouldn't do it anything right, 724 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,920 Speaker 1: play it off, just played cool. They don't know anything, 725 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,640 Speaker 1: they can't prove anything. You got anything else about cat poop? 726 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 1: I got nothing else. Don't hit and kick your dogs, man, 727 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,160 Speaker 1: don't beat up your dogs. That's uh well, if you 728 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,480 Speaker 1: want to know more about dog training, there is a 729 00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: lot to go read about on the internet and a 730 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,839 Speaker 1: lot of these conflicting So definitely choose wisely. And since 731 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,919 Speaker 1: I said choose wisely, it's time for a listener mail. 732 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this one. It delighted us. Oh, I 733 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: think you probably read this one. Um, I enjoyed the 734 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:18,439 Speaker 1: short stuff. Guys. On barbed wire, I wanted to share 735 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,280 Speaker 1: the fact that my great great grandfather, one William Harvey Beale, 736 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:27,799 Speaker 1: invented the barbed wire tightener. How about that? Yeah, this 737 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 1: is what enabled ranchers and farmers to install their own fencing. 738 00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 1: I am the twelfth generation and a long line of 739 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 1: Beals that began in the US in the sixteen eighties 740 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 1: from England, first landing in Pennsylvania and gradually by creating westward. Um. 741 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 1: I don't know why that remind have you ever? Do 742 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,400 Speaker 1: you watched what we do in the shadows I have 743 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: seen it here there, yes, so you know it was 744 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,720 Speaker 1: a it was a movie and now it's a TV show. 745 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 1: And the TV show one of the elder vampires, uh 746 00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: any time that you know they're on Staten Island and 747 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 1: talks about Manhattan, he calls it Mannahatta. That's hilarious, but 748 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 1: there's no reason for it to be hilarious, but it 749 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: describes that. I like the TV show more than the 750 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:17,520 Speaker 1: movie because almost exclusively because of Matthew Berry. Really, I 751 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,360 Speaker 1: think anything he's in is just that guy is good. 752 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: It's great. You know, one of the writers on that 753 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:28,320 Speaker 1: show and producers is Tom Sharplin of The Best Show. Anyway, 754 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:29,799 Speaker 1: I don't know how that reminded me of it. I 755 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 1: think I was thinking about them landing in Pennsylvania and 756 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: what it was called back then, Pennsylvana. Back to the letter, 757 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:45,359 Speaker 1: William Barby, whose generation eight was homesteadying in Kansas nine 758 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 1: and took a job as a barbed wire fence salesman, 759 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 1: and he said that Goodness knows, there was plenty of 760 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,239 Speaker 1: fencing being shipped into the country by that time. You 761 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 1: couldn't do any good trying to farm without it. Big 762 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 1: problem there for farmers they got the fence up, was 763 00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,799 Speaker 1: how to pull the wire tight on the post. So 764 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,319 Speaker 1: he tinkered in a forge and developed a device to 765 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 1: pull the wire tight. So kind of patent and was 766 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,840 Speaker 1: soon selling the beal wire tightener to quote every bedevilled 767 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,400 Speaker 1: fence tender for miles around in quote. She sent pictures 768 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 1: of the device and the patent and William working on 769 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,800 Speaker 1: a ranch and that was great, she said. He traveled 770 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: around the West. He traveled around the West for eight 771 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:23,880 Speaker 1: years selling his invention, was able to pay off his debts. 772 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 1: Eventually moved to California, a with the next four generations remain. 773 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,840 Speaker 1: I'm writing from San Diego. I know all these details 774 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: thanks to William's youngest daughter who recorded extensive oral histories 775 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:38,480 Speaker 1: and books. What a great letter. That is a great letter, um. 776 00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:40,399 Speaker 1: I've been listening to show for about five years. Flew 777 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,960 Speaker 1: to Phoenix to see you live last year. Here the 778 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 1: highlight of my week. With love and gratitude, Chandra in 779 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: San Diego. Thanks a lot, Chandra, Pennsylvania to San Diego. No, 780 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: I love it. Over three hundred and forty years the 781 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,600 Speaker 1: Mannahatta Um. That was a great one. Thanks and for 782 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: the pictures too. That was just excellent. If you want 783 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: to get in touch with this, like Sandra did Schaendra right? Yes, okay, 784 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,239 Speaker 1: you can go on to stuff you Should Know dot 785 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 1: com and check out our social links. And if that 786 00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: doesn't work, you can always try a good old fashioned email, 787 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,359 Speaker 1: Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send 788 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:20,880 Speaker 1: it off to stuff podcast at iHeart radio dot com. 789 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,120 Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeart Radios 790 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: How stuff Works. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, 791 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,440 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you 792 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.