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Speaker 1: The whole concept of hosting but then playing at your

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Speaker 1: own home course is kind of strange to me, you know,

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Speaker 1: like it's kind of an unfair advantage, isn't it. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you're hosting and then you get to play at

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Speaker 1: your own home course, like you play that all the time. Um,

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Speaker 1: I think it'd be fair if you hosted but you

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Speaker 1: didn't play there, you know, I think that would be

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Speaker 1: a more fair fair for everybody. Really, put another logal

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Speaker 1: far nobody here is get in time. Welcome to the

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Speaker 1: fire pit with Matt Chinella. Well, here we are almost

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Speaker 1: exactly a week after Brad Hurlbut, the athletic director at

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Speaker 1: Fairleigh Dickinson and member of the local n C Double

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Speaker 1: A championship committee, who walked down the stairs of the

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Speaker 1: University club in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, put his hand on

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Speaker 1: his chest and stomped on the hearts of the assembled crowd.

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Speaker 1: The opening sound bite was Inez Juana Marta, a senior

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Speaker 1: at Purdue who was in that crowd that day and

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Speaker 1: who admitted to me she burst into tears like you, Inez,

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Speaker 1: and the rest of those student athletes. We were all shocked, mortified, confused, angry,

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Speaker 1: and sad, but mostly we wanted answers. Over the course

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Speaker 1: of the next few days, I made several calls and

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Speaker 1: sent a lot of emails, asking players, coaches, and media

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Speaker 1: to recount the specifics of the week, which is Part

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Speaker 1: one of this three part series. Well, I was making

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Speaker 1: calls and emails in search of some answers. Barstool Riggs

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Speaker 1: was making calls and emails to create a consolation championship

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Speaker 1: for the women who lost a chance to finish their

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Speaker 1: year or career on the course, which is Part two.

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Speaker 1: As for Part three, I turned to Jay Billis, the

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Speaker 1: college basketball analyst who once played and coached at Duke

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Speaker 1: and is still a practicing lawyer in North Carolina. Billis

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Speaker 1: has spent the better part of a decade questioning and

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Speaker 1: assessing the dysfunction and flaws of the n C Double A.

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Speaker 1: Billis is brilliant. I always get smarter when I spend

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Speaker 1: time with them. It's Billis, bones, John Smoltz, and Tony

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Speaker 1: Romo who are on my modern Mount Rushmore of sports analysts.

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Speaker 1: Even if I don't care about the teams or the outcome,

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Speaker 1: I'll watch for the education about the sport and what

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Speaker 1: I'm seeing on the screen. In this case, I called

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Speaker 1: Billis to teach us about what we saw on those steps,

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to get a better understanding of the

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Speaker 1: National Collegiate Athletic Association what is the deal with the incident? Like,

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Speaker 1: why is the systemic you know, sort of dysfunction continuing

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Speaker 1: to happen, and how do we get out from underneath it. Yeah. Man,

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Speaker 1: it's been a long, long term problem for the n

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Speaker 1: C Double A, and it's it's all coming to ahead

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Speaker 1: now because of the attention that's been on all of

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Speaker 1: these different spots, in part because the pandemic, but we've

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Speaker 1: seen systemic issues with regard to gender equity where the

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Speaker 1: Double A talks a good game and but they don't

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Speaker 1: walk that talk. The women's basketball tournament, it was exposed that,

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Speaker 1: you know, the n Double I didn't treat the women's

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Speaker 1: tournament the men's tournament the same, and they've been taking

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Speaker 1: and rightfully so, a lot of heat over it. Right now.

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Speaker 1: The lacrosse tournament is in a minor controversy over roster limits,

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Speaker 1: in part having to do with COVID. But we've crossed

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Speaker 1: a lot of different lines with regard to COVID and

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Speaker 1: when the participants are complaining the coaches, administrators and certainly players. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it resonates and and it it rings pretty loudly in Indianapolis.

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Speaker 1: I think what we saw with the women's golf tournament

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Speaker 1: and Double A Tournament regionals at l s U was

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Speaker 1: yet another systemic issue. And I think the question arises,

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Speaker 1: is this really the N Double A's fault or is

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Speaker 1: it the fault of maintenance or the staff at the

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Speaker 1: golf course, or is it the tournament committee whatever it

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Speaker 1: may be. Well, ultimately the responsibility lies with the N

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Speaker 1: Double A. They're in charge of the championship. They put

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Speaker 1: all of these things in place. They're the ones that

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Speaker 1: chose the committee members and and chose the venue and

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Speaker 1: these you know, the rain didn't just pop up, you know,

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Speaker 1: like a pop up shower that lasted for a long time. Uh.

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Speaker 1: There could have been some adjustments and things done, uh

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Speaker 1: to to mitigate this and to to get the tournament in.

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Speaker 1: And you certainly aren't bound, especially in a pandemic, bound

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Speaker 1: by a manual that this manual wasn't carried down by

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Speaker 1: Moses from Mount Sinai on tablets, and you can make

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Speaker 1: adjustments and everybody would understand if the tournament has to

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Speaker 1: be over by Wednesday, that can be extended. That is

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Speaker 1: not that big of a problem. So I think right now,

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Speaker 1: given what we've been through getting to yes and getting

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Speaker 1: to a conclusion where the competitors can compete, it's not

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Speaker 1: good enough to walk down some stairs and tell a

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Speaker 1: bunch of athletes that, well, sorry, this is it and

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Speaker 1: then walk back up the stairs. That's just not good enough.

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Speaker 1: And uh, and I think the n C Double A

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Speaker 1: has to take responsibility for that. I asked Billis if

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Speaker 1: he thought the situation in Baton Rouge was a gender issue.

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Speaker 1: We're a golf issue. Look at the hoops we jumped

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Speaker 1: through to have an n C Double A men's basketball

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Speaker 1: tournament and an n Double A women's basketball tournament. Now,

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Speaker 1: obviously those are big revenue producers, so there there are

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Speaker 1: more resources put towards those events. But if you're gonna

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Speaker 1: put a championship on, you got to put it on

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Speaker 1: the right way, and you have you have to get

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Speaker 1: you have to get this thing in and if it

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Speaker 1: means you're gonna have to make adjustments, if it means

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Speaker 1: you're gonna have to look at your manual and say,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I know what the manual says, but

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Speaker 1: here's what we're gonna do. Anyway. We're not gonna We're

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Speaker 1: not gonna tell these athletes no, um. We We're going

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Speaker 1: to figure out a way to to to play this championship.

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Speaker 1: I think you do it. And if it comes down

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Speaker 1: it's a question of research, like how much do we

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Speaker 1: really care about this? Because whether it's football, basketball, lacrosse, golf,

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Speaker 1: you name it, they're they're of the exact same importance

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Speaker 1: to the participants and the coaches. They may not be

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Speaker 1: of the same importance to viewers or or administrators frankly,

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Speaker 1: but they're they're the same importance to the competitors. And

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Speaker 1: and it's another thing about about talking a good game

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Speaker 1: versus walking it. Uh. The n C double A talks

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Speaker 1: about all these different student athletes, all of them being important,

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Speaker 1: and and then we see what's really important when we

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Speaker 1: this would not have happened. If it were a football game,

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Speaker 1: it would not have happened. If it were a basketball event,

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Speaker 1: it would have been played. But because it's it's a

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Speaker 1: golf event, I don't I don't think it's necessarily men's

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Speaker 1: versus women's golf. But but sadly we're talking about it

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Speaker 1: in women's golf taking a taken another hit. I think

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Speaker 1: if it were football or basketball, they would have figured

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Speaker 1: it out. I really believe that what is at the

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Speaker 1: core of your energy and passion behind you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: d n C Double A as as sort of this institutional,

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Speaker 1: sort of dysfunctional thing that kind of hovers above unpaid

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Speaker 1: athletic competition. I think, Matt, it's my experience with it.

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Speaker 1: You know, when I was in college a million years

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Speaker 1: ago in the eighties, I was a member of an

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Speaker 1: NSTA Double A committee. I was an athlete representative of

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Speaker 1: the n C Double A long Range Planning Committee. I

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Speaker 1: always joke that clearly we didn't do that good of

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Speaker 1: a job. Look where we are out. But I knew it.

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Speaker 1: I just my long range planning skills are so crappy.

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Speaker 1: But when when I was on the committee, I brought

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Speaker 1: up a lot of the same issues that we're dealing

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Speaker 1: with now, transfer issues. I didn't think the transfer policies

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Speaker 1: were fair. Uh then in order I think they're fair now.

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Speaker 1: I did bring up limited issues about athlete compensation, not

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Speaker 1: necessarily being paid, but being allowed to accept things, um

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Speaker 1: that other other students could accept and we wouldn't get

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Speaker 1: in trouble for it. And those things were usually shot

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Speaker 1: down for policy reasons and meetings by athletic directors and

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Speaker 1: commissioners and the like, who were great people and whom

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Speaker 1: I had great relationships with. But back then I was

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Speaker 1: a good soldier. You know, when a decision was made

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Speaker 1: that I didn't agree with, I supported the decision publicly

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Speaker 1: because I was a member of that team. I'm not

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Speaker 1: on that team anymore, you know. Now my job is

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Speaker 1: to analyze, you know, I mean they called me. We

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Speaker 1: used to be called color commentators. Now we're analysts. So

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Speaker 1: if I'm going to analyze the game, in the rules

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Speaker 1: of the game and all that, I have to analyze

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Speaker 1: policy too. I think I'm I'm suited to do it.

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Speaker 1: I think I understand it. I've studied it. Uh So

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Speaker 1: I don't feel shy about saying this is wrong, this

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Speaker 1: is right, this is good, this is bad. Um. I

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Speaker 1: don't feel one ounce of of of a problem in

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Speaker 1: doing that. Uh And I think we've seen though, Matt,

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Speaker 1: over the years, like maybe ten years ago, if I

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Speaker 1: would talk about these things, there were there would be

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Speaker 1: some people that say, I just talk about the game.

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Speaker 1: We don't want to hear about this crap. Just talk

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Speaker 1: about the game. I don't hear that anymore. Um. I

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Speaker 1: think if everybody sees it, given all the money that's

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Speaker 1: involved in these games, all the you know, these schools,

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Speaker 1: it was shown through the pandemic. These schools are media

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Speaker 1: their media rights content providers, and and I hope this

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Speaker 1: doesn't come across the wrong way, but the pandemic showed

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Speaker 1: us we didn't play football and basketball because the kids

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Speaker 1: wanted to play. That was a convenient thing to say, Well,

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Speaker 1: the kids want to play. Well, the quote unquote kids

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Speaker 1: in every other endeavoring university of life, they wanted to

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Speaker 1: participate in their stuff too, and they didn't get the chance.

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Speaker 1: And it's because we didn't sell their We didn't sell

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Speaker 1: their content. You know, we owed that content to media

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Speaker 1: rights companies. And in order to get that content, the

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Speaker 1: schools had to get paid for that content. School had

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Speaker 1: to provide it. So, you you know, one simple question

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Speaker 1: and answer reveals it all. You know, name me one

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Speaker 1: non athlete student that was put on an airplane by

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Speaker 1: a university of the last fourteen months for a university function,

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Speaker 1: and you can't name one because there wasn't one. It

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Speaker 1: was only it was only athletes. And and it even

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Speaker 1: goes to non revenue sports because those sports were content

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Speaker 1: provided uh to UM to the conference networks, you know

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Speaker 1: the SEC network, the SEC Network, Pack twelve network, that

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Speaker 1: they needed all those non revenue sports for their own

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Speaker 1: content uh to be provided. So look, it's a big business.

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Speaker 1: And that's why I talked about it. And that's why

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Speaker 1: these issues are being decided before the Supreme Court. That's

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Speaker 1: why Congress has taken this up. That's why all these

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Speaker 1: states are passing at I L laws and uh. And

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Speaker 1: you know we're seeing it even in golf. Um. You

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Speaker 1: know funny Matt with recently when the U S g

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Speaker 1: A and the RNA made an announcement with regard to

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Speaker 1: competitors being amateurs being allowed to accept more than in

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Speaker 1: the past surprize money. I had been asked about it,

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Speaker 1: and I said, I thought it was a great thing.

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Speaker 1: You know, I thought it was a really important step

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Speaker 1: not only for for amateur golf, but for but for

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Speaker 1: n C double A sports all that. And I got

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Speaker 1: I added, several club pros call me and say, we'd

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Speaker 1: like you to reconsider your stance on that because this

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Speaker 1: is really going to hurt club professionals. That if if

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Speaker 1: at a member local member guest or a member member

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Speaker 1: club championship, if if the competitors can accept prize money

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Speaker 1: and not not apparel through the shop, we're gonna lose

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Speaker 1: a lot of money. And I started really thinking about it.

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Speaker 1: I'm saying, well, jeez, you know, I didn't really think

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Speaker 1: about it that way. But then I started thinking about, well,

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Speaker 1: they're really they're not talking about the principle of amateurism here,

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Speaker 1: that it's wrong for a competitor to accept that and

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Speaker 1: it's wrong for it to be provided. They were saying

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Speaker 1: it's wrong for it not to flow through our pockets,

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Speaker 1: and and but it was really interesting. I'm not I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying they were wrong in voicing concern over it,

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Speaker 1: because everybody's got their their interesting But but even in golf,

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Speaker 1: which I think is the the only true amateur endeavor

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Speaker 1: in sports, as you know, Matt, like an amateur golfer

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Speaker 1: decides when and if he or she will play or practice.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you're if you're practicing for the mid

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Speaker 1: Am or the U s AM and you've got a

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Speaker 1: family wedding coming up, you say, well, you know, I

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Speaker 1: can't practice for the U s AM. I can't even

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Speaker 1: play this year. You know, you think any n C

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Speaker 1: Double A athlete is saying, well, I got a wedding

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Speaker 1: coming up, I can't play. No way you're practicing and

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Speaker 1: you're playing, Um, you're a pro and uh and with

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Speaker 1: amateur restrictions. But amateur golf is different. But but I

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Speaker 1: was surprised at the sort of at the response of

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Speaker 1: the club pro. I didn't I just didn't think about it.

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Speaker 1: And it was an interesting point. But it was interesting.

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Speaker 1: The point wasn't being made on the principle of amateurism.

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Speaker 1: It was being made on We'll wait a minute, the

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Speaker 1: money still has to flow through us or we're going

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Speaker 1: to get hurt. I thought that was really interesting. Do

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Speaker 1: you see a day where the n C Double A

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Speaker 1: gets dismantled and there's a different way of going about

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Speaker 1: amateur athletics in the United States of America? Yes, and

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Speaker 1: no dismantled. No, because multibillion dollar businesses don't just fold

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Speaker 1: up their tent because they have to allow pay to

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Speaker 1: their employees. Um, they're not going to do that. We

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Speaker 1: could we will see a different structure going forward. It

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Speaker 1: maybe that the Power five schools. I don't think they'll

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Speaker 1: break away, but they may form more of their own division.

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Speaker 1: We're certainly going to see things go toward where the

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Speaker 1: money is, just as we've seen with the college football Playoff,

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Speaker 1: that's only going to get bigger. It's only going to expand. UM.

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Speaker 1: And we're gonna see we're gonna see revenue generation enhanced

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Speaker 1: across the board with new revenue streams, streaming, all these

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Speaker 1: different things. Who could have imagined thirty years ago that

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Speaker 1: that conferences would have their own networks? Uh? Now that

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Speaker 1: does that help? Uh? Non revenue sports quote unquote non

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Speaker 1: revenue sports. I think it does. So I think we're

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Speaker 1: going to see all of this continue to expand rather

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Speaker 1: than contract. UM. But but I do believe this that

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Speaker 1: that it's inevitable that athletes will will be compensated for

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Speaker 1: their name, image and likeness. And I believe beyond uh

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Speaker 1: and and it's inevitable that this is going to continue

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Speaker 1: to grow. UM. We've already passed the point of saying, well,

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Speaker 1: these are just extracurricular activities, just like being in the

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Speaker 1: band or the drama, a club, or it's not it's

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Speaker 1: not that UM. We're in the We're in a multi

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Speaker 1: billion dollar entertainment industry, and uh, and it is far

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Speaker 1: different from the U S Amateur. You know, the US

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Speaker 1: Amateur may be funded by the US Open and the

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Speaker 1: U S g A, but it's not run the same way.

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Speaker 1: And and the Southeastern Conferences run the exact same way

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Speaker 1: as the NFL, and and the the SEC Basketball is

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Speaker 1: run the exact same way as the NBA. They're just

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Speaker 1: many nfls and many NBA's. They pay, they pay their

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Speaker 1: coaches the same way. They operate the same way. The

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Speaker 1: only difference is the players are required to be enrolled

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Speaker 1: in school and go to class. That's the only difference.

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Speaker 1: Everything else is exactly the same. Billis makes the point

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Speaker 1: that so much has evolved for amateur sports, the business

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Speaker 1: of being the n C double A, the business of

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Speaker 1: being a school a college coach, the sports complexes and

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Speaker 1: training facilities, the merchandise and especially the distribution contracts, and

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Speaker 1: yet for the athletes, up until some lee, it's pretty

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Speaker 1: much all stayed. The same. Things are changing for the

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Speaker 1: athletes right now, and it's causing a lot of consternation

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Speaker 1: among administrators, like like old guys like you and me,

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Speaker 1: it's causing people a lot of problems. But you know what,

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Speaker 1: we didn't get to this point by accident. We've had

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Speaker 1: a ton of change in the last thirty forty years

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Speaker 1: on the revenue generation side. When I played basketball in college,

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Speaker 1: my coach was Mike Sachowski, same guy's coaching there now.

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Speaker 1: He made like seventy five thou dollars when I played

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Speaker 1: for him. He's making like nine or ten million now.

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Speaker 1: And nobody's complained about all those changes. But it's funny

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Speaker 1: now that the athletes who have remained the same all

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Speaker 1: this time, they're they're being allowed some some rights of

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Speaker 1: movement with transfers, and they're being allowed some a few

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Speaker 1: drips of compensation in n I L. And it's not

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Speaker 1: like we're turning the foss and on. We're just asking

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Speaker 1: how many drips out of that fausage should they be allowed?

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Speaker 1: And and we're talking about doomsday scenarios. Um, I don't

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Speaker 1: buy it. I don't think we're gonna have doomsday. I

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Speaker 1: think the business will will be just fine, just like

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Speaker 1: it's been at every other step. When when all the

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Speaker 1: changes have been on the revenue enhancement side, now it's

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Speaker 1: going to be athlete enhancement some of their compensation and

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Speaker 1: what will be just fine there too. Another issue are

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Speaker 1: the inconsistencies within the rules and guidelines per sport and athlete.

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Speaker 1: Why not evolve the language and structure so they make

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Speaker 1: sense to everyone involved, most notably the young men and

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Speaker 1: women who are being exploited for their ability, namesake, and likeness.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why we're stuck on this um sort

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Speaker 1: of amateurism, uh signifies some sort of love for the game.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it does. I just think it's a

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Speaker 1: it's you know, for for my level of golfer, All

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Speaker 1: it does is mean I can play more often against

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Speaker 1: somebody that I have a chance to compete with. That's

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Speaker 1: all it means to me. Like the big time amateur

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Speaker 1: offers are honestly are professional amateurs. I mean, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you and I have talked about this in

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Speaker 1: our times together when we played or or hung out,

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Speaker 1: but you know, several years ago, I've got a really

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Speaker 1: good friend at a at a club manufacturer. He invited

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Speaker 1: me out to one of their facilities and while I

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Speaker 1: was there sort of getting fitted for clubs and feeling like,

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Speaker 1: you know, feeling like a king and enjoying that. I

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Speaker 1: turned around. There are all these college golfers there that

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Speaker 1: we're leaving there with tons of gear and all this

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Speaker 1: stuff that I know they weren't paying for. And I

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Speaker 1: don't I don't have a problem with it. But that

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Speaker 1: would be like if those were basketball players, they'd be

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Speaker 1: rung up as having violated every amateurism rule of the book.

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Speaker 1: So amateurism is really whatever we say it is at

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Speaker 1: any given time. And and look, it's an elitist concept

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Speaker 1: um because back in the day, in order to be

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Speaker 1: an amateur you had to have money. Amateurism came from

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Speaker 1: a place where the moneyed elites did not want to

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Speaker 1: play against the common man, did not want to compete

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Speaker 1: against the unwashed masses. And the way to eliminate the

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Speaker 1: common man was to make it amateur where the common

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Speaker 1: man couldn't afford to play. And uh, and that's not

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Speaker 1: what it is now. I think we're in a in

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Speaker 1: a more inclusive environment where, especially in golf, we're striving

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Speaker 1: to be more inclusive and to take the game to

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Speaker 1: the masses. But but whether it's golf or the n

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Speaker 1: C Double A or any of these things, like amateurism

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Speaker 1: doesn't enhance your love of the game. It just doesn't.

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Speaker 1: I've never bought that, and um and I don't. I

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Speaker 1: don't think I ever will. Like I love I love

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Speaker 1: these games, whether I'm paid or not. And I think

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Speaker 1: it's true of everyone else too. Just to wrap this

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Speaker 1: up on the n c Double A Women's Regionals and

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Speaker 1: the reason why I went down this rabbit hole and

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Speaker 1: why I'm gonna do this podcast and tell this story

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Speaker 1: in hopes that maybe it, you know, it doesn't happen again.

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Speaker 1: The real crime here is that athletes didn't get a

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Speaker 1: chance to be athletes, to prove that, you know, as

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Speaker 1: both individuals and as a team, that they have of

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to keep advancing and playing for a national championship.

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Speaker 1: The rug got pulled out from underneath athletes. And that's why,

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Speaker 1: that's why it matters really to me. How do how

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Speaker 1: do we make that up to him? That's the thing is,

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Speaker 1: we talk a good game about wanting to let the

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Speaker 1: competitors compete, let them decide it on the field, and

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Speaker 1: I believe that that opportunity existed at the Women's regional

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Speaker 1: that that they could have they could have found a

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Speaker 1: way to play and they chose not to for a

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Speaker 1: variety of reasons, and I'm not saying it came from

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Speaker 1: a bad place or they were bad people. I disagree

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Speaker 1: with the decision, but ultimately, in all of these decisions,

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Speaker 1: the ones left holding the bag are the competitors, the players,

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Speaker 1: and and Matt like this has always frosted me. On

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Speaker 1: the basketball side, I don't know how you feel about this,

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Speaker 1: but or whether you hear it, you're you're far more

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Speaker 1: involved in golf than I am. But on the basketball side,

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Speaker 1: I hear every now and again when we talk about

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Speaker 1: the policy or rules are all there, how things should

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Speaker 1: be done. You hear about our game, protecting our game.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things I've I've said of late

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Speaker 1: is it's not our game anymore. Like I don't play

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Speaker 1: basketball anymore. Um, I'm in a few different positions of

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Speaker 1: leadership or or policy where I'm on a committee here there,

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Speaker 1: But but it's not my game. It's not our game,

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Speaker 1: it's their game. And I feel that way about golf.

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Speaker 1: This wasn't this wasn't the n C Double As Championship.

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Speaker 1: This is the players championship. And I believe that that

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Speaker 1: heaven and Earth should have been moved for them to play,

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Speaker 1: and I think it could have been accomplished and it

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Speaker 1: wasn't and that's a that's a major failing on the

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Speaker 1: part of the n C Double A leadership for that

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Speaker 1: not to have been played. And I think the reaction

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Speaker 1: you've seen and we've seen has been a direct result

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Speaker 1: of of the players not getting a chance to decide

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Speaker 1: it on the field of play. And and you'll never

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Speaker 1: can nobody will ever convince me that the right decision

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Speaker 1: was not to not to try. I'll end all of

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Speaker 1: this with final thoughts on the inc doable A from

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Speaker 1: three players. First, Kole Schroeder, the fifth year senior at

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Speaker 1: Oregon State. Their job and Double A is to do

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Speaker 1: everything in their power to provide student athletes equal opportunity

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Speaker 1: UM to compete at the level that they signed up

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Speaker 1: to compete at. And they failed us thought was not

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Speaker 1: lived up to in any capacity this week. UM. And

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Speaker 1: it's quite sad Ellie Slama, who also plays for Oregon

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Speaker 1: State and who promises to keep peppering the incidently with

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Speaker 1: emails and letters until they make some changes and they

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Speaker 1: apologize for what they did in Baton Rouge. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the n b A is so vocal about having every

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Speaker 1: opportunity for student athletes to play and compete, and especially

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Speaker 1: after COVID last year where our entire postseason and most

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Speaker 1: of our normal season was ripped away. They didn't even

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Speaker 1: give any effort to make this happen, and they didn't

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Speaker 1: take anyone's feelings into consideration that there were a bunch

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Speaker 1: of fifth yer seniors that came back just for this opportunity,

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Speaker 1: and then it was once again just ripped away and

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Speaker 1: finally one more for menez Wanamarta of Purdue. What happens

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Speaker 1: should not have happened. Um, you know we're we're talking

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Speaker 1: about n C Double A Division one year. You know,

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Speaker 1: I expect more. That's that's all I'm gonna say. Hard

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Speaker 1: to argue with, as let's all hope something like this

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Speaker 1: never happens again. Unfortunately, with the n C Double A

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Speaker 1: in charge, competing schools acting as hosts, and with alumni

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Speaker 1: serving on the compromised committees, it seems these systemic failures

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Speaker 1: are here to stay. Now, go watch and support the

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Speaker 1: LTP Classic where they're finally getting a chance to play

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Speaker 1: thanks again to Jay Billis, all of the coaches, athletes,

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Speaker 1: and barstool rigs for making this series possible and thank

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Speaker 1: you for listening. I'd also like to thank Link Soul

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Speaker 1: and part Points for their sponsorship of this podcast and

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Speaker 1: the fire Pit Collective dot com