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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 3: This is buried bones. Hey Kate, Hey Paul, how are you?

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Speaker 2: No, I'm doing great. How are you doing this? Time?

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Speaker 1: Fine? Enough small talk.

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Speaker 2: We got a big case that we're kind of talking about, right.

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Speaker 1: I want to jump right into the case of Sam Shepherd,

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Speaker 1: because I know I left you on a cliffhanger, which

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Speaker 1: was this case about this neurosurgeon in nineteen fifty four,

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Speaker 1: Ohio who is under suspicion by police of violently murdering

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Speaker 1: his wife, Marilyn in their lake front home. And Sam

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Speaker 1: Shepherd is a worthless witness essentially because He says he's

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Speaker 1: been knocked out twice by a man whose only description

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Speaker 1: he gives is a bushy haired stranger, which I can't

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Speaker 1: think of a more vague thing to say about anyone. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: not the best description. But we'll find out a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about Sam Shepherd's story that night in just

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Speaker 1: a bit. But that's kind of the quick and dirty

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Speaker 1: summary of this story. He is and on very hard

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Speaker 1: narcotics in the hospital because of all the pain and

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Speaker 1: injuries that he says he has, and the police are

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Speaker 1: now starting to investigate a motive. That's one of the

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Speaker 1: first things I want to talk about, But let me

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Speaker 1: go ahead and get your impressions on some other things.

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Speaker 1: So let's get started.

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Speaker 2: Sounds great.

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Speaker 1: What do you want to start with here? Do you

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Speaker 1: want to talk about the bloodstain pattern on the walls?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's kind of complete the crime scene analysis.

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Speaker 1: I feel like a real investigator, is that what you

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Speaker 1: would say? Let's go ahead and just don't jump ahead, Kate.

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Speaker 1: So this is the photo that we were talking about.

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Speaker 1: We could see in the lower right hand corner Maryland's

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Speaker 1: bed and the massive bloodstain that's there, and then looks

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Speaker 1: like there's a closet door and a bedroom door. The

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Speaker 1: bedroom doors open, closet doors closed, and there appears to

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Speaker 1: be blood spatter primarily sort of at the same level

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Speaker 1: as the bed. Are you reading it like that right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? The photo was taken from the vantage point of,

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Speaker 2: you know, standing kind of at the far side foot

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Speaker 2: of the bed, look towards the front entry into the bedroom,

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Speaker 2: and the entry door is fully open up against what

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Speaker 2: appears to be a closet door, and there are numerous

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Speaker 2: droplets of varying sizes distributed across both doors. And of

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Speaker 2: course I'd love to see what's happening behind the entry door,

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Speaker 2: because if it's let's say it's closed at the time

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Speaker 2: some of this blood pattern was put on there and

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Speaker 2: then it opens up, that would tell me that there's

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Speaker 2: some sequencing information. Right now, I'm going to assume that

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Speaker 2: all the blood patterns that I'm seeing is showing that

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Speaker 2: that door was open at the time that these blood

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Speaker 2: droplets struck it. As I look at this, imagine why

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Speaker 2: is the blood spatter down on the lower third of

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Speaker 2: these doors really at the height of the bed or.

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Speaker 1: Lower below the doorknobs, is how I would describe that.

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Speaker 2: Below the doorknobs and down to the floor and some

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Speaker 2: of I'm you know, some of these droplets. What ends

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Speaker 2: up happening with blood spatter is there's an arcing aspect

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Speaker 2: to them, so they may go up after a blow

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Speaker 2: to a bloody source and then they end up falling

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Speaker 2: down and then you'll see somewhat of a downwards trajectory

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Speaker 2: as they strike these doors. I can't discern that. But

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Speaker 2: there's nothing about Maryland's body and positioning to indicate that

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Speaker 2: she received some blows, let's say, on the floor, and

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Speaker 2: was moved up to the bed. So I'm going to

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Speaker 2: make an assumption that all the blows are inflicted while

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Speaker 2: she's laying on the bed. What is interesting is there's

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Speaker 2: no void in these spatter patterns on these doors. So

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Speaker 2: imagine if an offender is standing on that side of

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Speaker 2: the bed inflicting those blows at the time these particular

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Speaker 2: blows are being inflicted, that offender is going to be

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Speaker 2: receiving the droplets on him and causing a void behind

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Speaker 2: him right.

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Speaker 1: Right, and there's not one there that I can see.

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Speaker 2: I don't see that. And again I don't know how

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Speaker 2: many blows are represented, and it may have been even

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Speaker 2: impossible to determine that. However, you told me the expert

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Speaker 2: said that there is no cast off on the ceiling, correct.

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Speaker 1: Right, They said, this is nineteen fifty four, no cast

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Speaker 1: off on the ceiling. And what they assumed that meant

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Speaker 1: was the blows were made horizontally, not vertically. Does that

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Speaker 1: make any kind of a difference in the investigation at all?

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Speaker 1: Does that say something about height?

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Speaker 2: No, not necessarily, but it helps position the offender when

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Speaker 2: he's inflicting the blows. So if we take a look

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Speaker 2: at some of the injuries to Marilyn's face, they are

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Speaker 2: not up and down, like from the forehead down to

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Speaker 2: the chin. Some of them are actually across her face

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Speaker 2: side to side, and her head is turned somewhat to

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Speaker 2: her right, as if she's facing these doors. So I

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Speaker 2: start to think, well, the offender's not on top of

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Speaker 2: her inflicting these blows. He's standing on the other side

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Speaker 2: of her bed from the front entry, actually between her

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Speaker 2: bed and Sam's normal bed, and is now striking her

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Speaker 2: from that side. But the weapon is coming down while

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Speaker 2: her face is turned away from him towards where these

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Speaker 2: doors are. And so now when you get cast off

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Speaker 2: because of that, type of positioning of the offender, and

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Speaker 2: how the weapon is striking a face that's kind of

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Speaker 2: turned away from him. Now I can see spatter is

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Speaker 2: going to emanate towards these doors without the offender blocking

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Speaker 2: or creating a void. As well as if there is

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Speaker 2: cast off, the cast off comes on the upward swing

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Speaker 2: of the weapon. So now the cast off is coming

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Speaker 2: up in that horizontal plane versus up overhead towards the ceiling.

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Speaker 2: With what I can see, that's going to be something

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Speaker 2: that I would kind of say, is okay. I think

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Speaker 2: the offender, for some of the blows, is standing in

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Speaker 2: the middle part of the room, opposite from the front

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Speaker 2: entry of the bedroom in order to inflict some of

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Speaker 2: the blows. I can't say all the blows.

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Speaker 1: I thought before I saw this photo of the room

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Speaker 1: from this angle, I thought, Okay, she's in her bedroom.

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Speaker 1: The door might be closed. How did he get all

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Speaker 1: the way in between those two beds without her hearing

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Speaker 1: the door open? But now that I see the door open,

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Speaker 1: it looks like it was open when he came in,

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Speaker 1: so he didn't have to open the door quietly. That

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Speaker 1: would make sense. Number One, her husband's downstairs and presumably

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Speaker 1: probably coming upstairs, so she didn't want to shut the door.

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Speaker 1: And when you have a seven year old, I don't

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Speaker 1: know many parents who would shut a door when they

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Speaker 1: have a seven year old in the whole way across

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Speaker 1: the way. So my guess is that this situation made

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Speaker 1: life a little easier on the killer if it's not

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Speaker 1: Sam Shepherd, because he didn't have to open a door

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Speaker 1: and sneak in. The door was open and she was

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Speaker 1: really caught by surprise, is what it looks like to me.

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Speaker 1: Does that seem like that to you too?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a possibility. And you know, of course we

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Speaker 2: don't know how heavy of a sleeper she is. You know,

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Speaker 2: I've been married twice and both wives could sleep through

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Speaker 2: a hurricane to know, And I'm a very light sleeper,

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Speaker 2: you know. I'm the one that gets up if I

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Speaker 2: hear something and check things out. I do think, you know,

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Speaker 2: we don't know right now. I can't discern anything in

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Speaker 2: terms of whether the door was open or closed at

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Speaker 2: the time the offender enters the room. But that bedroom

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Speaker 2: door is open at the time that some of the

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Speaker 2: blows are being inflicted that are creating that blood spatter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about the logical to me motive, and

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Speaker 1: then let's talk about the police's motive that they've come

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Speaker 1: up with. Okay, things that have happened in the house.

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Speaker 1: Sam mentions when he ran upstairs after this fight and

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Speaker 1: he saw Marylyn, he could hear noises downstairs. So the

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Speaker 1: noises are all kinds of rifling through things. The trophies

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Speaker 1: were smashed that Sam had on the ground. They'd been

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Speaker 1: smashed on the floor.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's odd.

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Speaker 1: Whoever had killed her or Sam set this up, had

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Speaker 1: gone through Sam's medical bag. So I'm going to show

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Speaker 1: you that the medical bag had been turned over. Marilyn's

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Speaker 1: watching been found covered in blood. Police surmise whoever killed

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Speaker 1: her killed her she was wearing her watch, took the

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Speaker 1: watch off and then drop the watch. If this is

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Speaker 1: a stranger, the bushy haired stranger dropped the watch he

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Speaker 1: was planning to steal during his fight with Sam. So

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Speaker 1: we've got overturned everything. Marylyn and Sam's desks had both

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Speaker 1: been searched. He knocked over Sam's medical bag. You can see,

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Speaker 1: you know, his equipment on the ground. He has it

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Speaker 1: looks like a nice bureau that three drawers have been

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Speaker 1: yanked out. This of course can be completely staged. We

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Speaker 1: know that that happens.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And as I'm looking at this desk and you

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Speaker 2: have the three drawers pulled out, one of the notable

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Speaker 2: things that experienced burglars do is, you know, it's this

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Speaker 2: efficiency of motion. Imagine if you were to start with

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Speaker 2: that top drawer to see what's in it, in order

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Speaker 2: to see what's inside the next drawer, you have to

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Speaker 2: close the top drawer to open up the next drawer,

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Speaker 2: and so on and so Forthience burglars start from the

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Speaker 2: bottom and all they do is a pole pull pull, pull,

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Speaker 2: And that's what I'm seeing here. So that it doesn't

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Speaker 2: conclude whether or not you're dealing with a stranger. And

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Speaker 2: then this was a financially motivated crime because Sam could

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Speaker 2: easily have done this as well. But it's something that

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Speaker 2: strikes me. And when I see that, I go, Okay,

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Speaker 2: from all the burglaries that I've processed in my life,

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Speaker 2: I'm dealing with somebody who's knowing what they're doing. They're

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Speaker 2: trying to move quick, and they're doing something that many

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Speaker 2: people wouldn't think to do.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that about drawers. That's really interesting. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so now we are a little bit more on the

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Speaker 1: side of this is a stranger who had access to

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Speaker 1: the house, whether he knew the house well or not,

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Speaker 1: and knew what he was doing when he was burglarizing it.

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Speaker 1: So this seems logical to me that this is a

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Speaker 1: stranger a burglar, if you believe Sam Shepherd.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't necessarily conclude that this is a

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Speaker 2: stranger based on what I am seeing. I'm kind of

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Speaker 2: very curious to see what these these items are on

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Speaker 2: the floor in front of the desk, because that looks

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Speaker 2: funny to me. You've got paper that's distributed. Maybe it

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Speaker 2: looks like a I don't know if it's a calendar,

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Speaker 2: but some sort of little notebook. You know, why is

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Speaker 2: the offender taking the time to just do this to

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Speaker 2: paper and some of it looks like it might even

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Speaker 2: be torn up. That looks odd to my eyes right now.

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Speaker 2: But the photo doesn't give me enough information as to

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Speaker 2: what that paperwork is, what that notepad is, So that's odd.

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Speaker 2: You know, if the offender's looking for valuables, why is

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Speaker 2: he taking the time to kind of dump this paper.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't even look like it's something that he needed to

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Speaker 2: get out of the way. In order to rifle through

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Speaker 2: the desk.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you what was discovered. So the

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Speaker 1: police are searching the house. They're looking through the house.

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Speaker 1: Sam is at the hospital. They begin to search the property.

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Speaker 1: So remember this is lakefront property and on a bluff

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Speaker 1: of the lake, which I think a bluff is just

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Speaker 1: sort of the hill leading down from their house to

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Speaker 1: the lakeside to Lake Erie. On the bluff of the lake,

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Speaker 1: they find a green bag that was belonging to the

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Speaker 1: sho Shepherd's and they find it the next day under

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Speaker 1: a bush. The bag itself does not have any blood

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Speaker 1: on it. There were valuables from the shepherd home which

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Speaker 1: included Sam's watch, a class ring, an Onyx class ring

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Speaker 1: he had, and a key chain that had some charms

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Speaker 1: on it. And the watch was stopped at four point

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Speaker 1: fifteen am, we're presuming, and the police said that it

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Speaker 1: looked like it had been water logged around that time.

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Speaker 1: They found some water under the crystal, and so you know,

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Speaker 1: the idea was that maybe someone had stolen all of

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Speaker 1: this stuff, put it in a bag and dropped it

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Speaker 1: in the bush, or maybe hit it later on on

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Speaker 1: his escape and didn't take it with him, and later on,

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Speaker 1: when the police becomes suspicious, they say it's actually Sam

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Speaker 1: who was wearing the watch. He got in the water.

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Speaker 1: There was no real fight. He staged all of this

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Speaker 1: and when he kind of got in the water to

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Speaker 1: get his pants wet to make up this store, the

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Speaker 1: water got into the watch and ruined the watch, and

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Speaker 1: he decided to discard it, which seems pretty elaborate. So

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Speaker 1: is this all going to motive? Why are they not

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Speaker 1: believing his story at this point, he's injured, his wife's dead.

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Speaker 1: What do you think the suspicion? Where does that come from?

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Speaker 1: Because a husband always is the one who.

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Speaker 2: Did it, well, not necessarily, you know, at this point,

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Speaker 2: it's also just trying to reconstruct his movements and a

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Speaker 2: stranger's movement's in order for this to all add up

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Speaker 2: from just an evidence standpoint. So this green bag was

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Speaker 2: the shepherd's bag. It's Sam's bag, right, These items are

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Speaker 2: inside the bag. My first question is where in the

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Speaker 2: house would these various items have been located at.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like on the bottom floor. But one of

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Speaker 1: the things that's interesting is that Sam says, this stranger

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Speaker 1: and I tussled, he knocked me out. He probably took

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Speaker 1: the watch off my wrist at that point, but Sam's

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Speaker 1: pocket had his wallet and that was never taken, So

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Speaker 1: the robbery thing is a little curious. I think that

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Speaker 1: these items were mostly downstairs and maybe found in the

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Speaker 1: desk where he was rifling through, but there also could

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Speaker 1: have been some of her jewelry could have been taken.

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Speaker 1: You know, we don't know. Sam couldn't account for everything, Okay, you.

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Speaker 2: Know that's important information from my perspective. Was it just

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Speaker 2: Sam's items? What was the value of those items? Where

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Speaker 2: were they located at Was there a very obvious source

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Speaker 2: of let's say Maryland's jewelry that was untouched that may

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Speaker 2: have been more expensive. Part of what I would be

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Speaker 2: deconvoluting is trying to determine, you know, was this logical

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Speaker 2: stuff or an offender to be able to quickly grab.

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Speaker 2: Was this bag in a position, this green bag in

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Speaker 2: a position where the offender would easily run across it,

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Speaker 2: or was it tucked in the back of a closet.

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Speaker 2: That's part of the details that I think the original

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Speaker 2: investigators are considering, in addition to maybe you know, the

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Speaker 2: scene is a little weird. Her body was pushing on

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Speaker 2: the bed is a little weird. Also, things aren't quite

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Speaker 2: adding up, and quite frankly, even though he's got the

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Speaker 2: issues with the vertebrae, the blows that are being inflicted

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Speaker 2: on him doesn't appear that they're leaving any obvious marks

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Speaker 2: on him, at least what I can see in that photo.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, this is all what the police are

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Speaker 1: talking about. They're saying, we don't believe a stranger came

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Speaker 1: out here. We're saying it's a big risk for a

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Speaker 1: stranger to come through. They didn't have any suspects, so

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Speaker 1: they start having some discussions about what the real motive

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Speaker 1: is because they're not one hundred percent sure of what's

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Speaker 1: missing and what's not and it does seem like an

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Speaker 1: odd crime scene. And then we have this husband who's useless.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about forensics. Throughout the house, there's a trail

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Speaker 1: of blood drops leading down the stairs and outside, no

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Speaker 1: tailtale signs of a struggle, even with Sam, except for

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Speaker 1: his injuries or a break in. In particular, there are

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Speaker 1: no tailtale signs of sexual assault on Maryland that could

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Speaker 1: be easily determined. There were no violent signs of rape.

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Speaker 1: We know that that doesn't mean anything, right, right, I

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Speaker 1: will say that at least had the foresight of taking

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Speaker 1: a vaginal swap, which was good.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, you know, and obviously here she is. You know,

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Speaker 2: she's left in a position that suggests that there are

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Speaker 2: sexual interaction between the offender and her, and at autopsy

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Speaker 2: they're going to be looking for any injuries as a

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Speaker 2: result of sexual interaction. You know, we have a saying

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Speaker 2: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and so

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Speaker 2: that's where it is possible that sexual interaction could have occurred,

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Speaker 2: but it didn't leave telltale signs of injuries to these

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Speaker 2: parts of her body.

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Speaker 1: This was so violent though, that they found pieces of

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Speaker 1: her teeth in the bed. But you would expect that

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Speaker 1: with the amount of blood and the amount of injuries,

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Speaker 1: more than thirty injuries to her body.

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Speaker 2: She has been bludgeoned to death. This is a typical bludgeoning.

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of curious if they recovered the weapon because

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Speaker 2: then that that informs me a little bit more about

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Speaker 2: how I can interpret the injuries. But all the injuries

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Speaker 2: are focused on her face and head. You know, there's

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Speaker 2: nothing She's not being strangled. Obviously, a knife isn't being used.

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Speaker 2: It's just a bludgeoning.

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Speaker 1: Weapon, right, and we'll talk about the weapon in a

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Speaker 1: little bit more. Forensics fingerprints that they found. There was

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Speaker 1: a fingerprint on the headboard was matched to Sam. I

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Speaker 1: know you're going to ask, was it in blood? No,

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Speaker 1: it was just a fingerprint. I actually had to ask

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Speaker 1: Maren to clarify that because I know from what you

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Speaker 1: would say, it would have been important if his fingerprint

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Speaker 1: were in the blood. But also he could have done

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Speaker 1: it just out of panic after he saw his dead wife.

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Speaker 2: And that's where you know, getting the statements early on

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Speaker 2: about how she was discovered, what did he do becomes important,

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Speaker 2: you know, And most certainly if he's finding his wife

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Speaker 2: dead and bludgeoned in their bed and he's coming up

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Speaker 2: and checking her pulse and seeing if she's alive, he

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Speaker 2: now had blood on his hands. He could be transferring

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Speaker 2: her blood onto the headboard through innocent activities, if you will,

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Speaker 2: not related to committing the crime.

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Speaker 1: Right. But the police are just continuing to gather all

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Speaker 1: of their evidence together. We've talked about how violent the

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Speaker 1: scene was. We've talked about the kind of injuries that

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Speaker 1: she had, and that the coroner said that this was

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Speaker 1: homicide by assault. Marilyn had more than thirty injuries, struck

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Speaker 1: dozens of times, broken teeth, fractures all over her head,

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Speaker 1: very very violent. The coroner announces that there's an inquest

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Speaker 1: which will be on July twenty seconds, so this is

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Speaker 1: a little less than twenty days after this happened at

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Speaker 1: a nearby school gymnasium. They were absolutely looking for motive.

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Speaker 1: The motive here was when they had Sam Shephard testify

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Speaker 1: at this inquest at the school gymnasium. He made a

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Speaker 1: big statement. There were a lot of rumors, Remember we

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Speaker 1: talked about the secret motive that police believe they knew.

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Speaker 1: There were a lot of rumors that Sam had had affairs,

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Speaker 1: at least one affair. He had publicly denied those extramarial affairs.

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Speaker 1: And then Gerber says he's reached a verdict that establishes

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Speaker 1: that Sam is Maryland's killer. Gerber is the corner. So

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Speaker 1: soon Sam is charged with first degree murder and arrested.

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Speaker 1: And Sam said, I didn't have an affair with anyone.

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Speaker 1: I didn't kill my wife. You're looking at the wrong person. Still,

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Speaker 1: the prosecutor ends up charging him with first degree murder

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Speaker 1: and he is very quickly arrested, And it's important to

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Speaker 1: keep in mind for me at least, that the media

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Speaker 1: coverage was, of course unbelievable. The Cleveland Press ran nearly

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Speaker 1: four hundred articles on the case in six months. A

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Speaker 1: lot of the press was skewed that was either directly

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Speaker 1: or implying that Sam was Mariland's killer. And he wasn't

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Speaker 1: even on trial yet. This is just leading up to

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Speaker 1: the trial. And the big question is if it's not him,

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Speaker 1: then who And I'd like to paraphrase he's Sherlock Holmes

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Speaker 1: here when he says, when faced with competing explanations, you

368
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Speaker 1: balance probabilities and choose the most likely. And Sam Shepherd

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Speaker 1: is the most likely in this case, is he not

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Speaker 1: at this point.

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Speaker 2: Well, he's suspicious. But with that Sherlock Holmes statement, you

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Speaker 2: don't choose just most likely to affect an arrest and

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Speaker 2: deny somebody their right to freedom. You have to develop

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Speaker 2: probable cause. So that's where I would be interested. Is Okay,

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Speaker 2: what did the investigators or the prosecutor, you know, what

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Speaker 2: did they develop to be able to say, yes, we

377
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,360
Speaker 2: have risen to a level of we've got probable cost

378
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Speaker 2: to affect an arrest And then the DA's office that

379
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Speaker 2: has confidence that they can go to beyond a reasonable doubt.

380
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Speaker 1: And the DA's office says, we do have probable cause,

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Speaker 1: and that's where we're moving forward. The defense attorney, Sam

382
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Speaker 1: Shepherd's defense attorney says, listen, there's way too much media

383
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Speaker 1: attention here, and in very skew media attention. We need

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Speaker 1: to move this trial. And the judge says no, and

385
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Speaker 1: we're not going to delay the trial either until the

386
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Speaker 1: public clamor dies down. We're staying in Cleveland, where everybody

387
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Speaker 1: knew the story and everybody had been reading these media accounts.

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Speaker 1: So can you talk a little bit about that, about

389
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Speaker 1: the decision of whether to stay or whether to go

390
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Speaker 1: in an area where clearly people know all about this

391
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Speaker 1: story more than a jury should.

392
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Speaker 2: It's not very common for there to be a motion

393
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Speaker 2: to change venue. It is in these high profile cases

394
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Speaker 2: because of the potential for contamination of the jury pool,

395
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Speaker 2: possible prejudice due to what they've been exposed to in

396
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Speaker 2: the media, which it sounds like the press was very

397
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Speaker 2: slanted towards Sam Shephard is responsible for Maryland's homicide. Yep

398
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Speaker 2: I am surprised at the denial for the motion of

399
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Speaker 2: venue change in this case based on what you've told me.

400
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Speaker 2: Now it is predicated on the jury selection process to

401
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:05,919
Speaker 2: find twelve or maybe more impartial jurors, and that's where

402
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,359
Speaker 2: the judge is taking a little bit of a risk

403
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Speaker 2: because this potentially opens up an avenue for appeals if

404
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 2: there is a conviction.

405
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 1: Right, and there are a lot of once we see

406
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 1: how this trial goes through, there are a lot of

407
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:25,160
Speaker 1: problems with the prosecution's case. One issue that Sam has

408
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,399
Speaker 1: is that he has been lying, So the prosecutor is

409
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Speaker 1: framing him as an adulterer who, despite the fact that

410
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Speaker 1: he had no history of being an abusive partner, killed

411
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Speaker 1: his wife because he had an unhappy marriage and didn't

412
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Speaker 1: want to have another child. Remember she's four months pregnant.

413
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Speaker 1: And Sam had said I was not having an affair.

414
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 1: I wasn't having an affair, and now he is saying

415
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Speaker 1: during this trial, okay, I was having an affair. So

416
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Speaker 1: lesson learned. Don't lie to the police in the public right.

417
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Speaker 2: As embarrassing as the detail may be, it's in your

418
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Speaker 2: best interest tell the truth. Did they interview the person

419
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Speaker 2: he was having an affair with. I'm assuming it's a woman.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and they did, and she took the stand. So

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you about that testimony. There have been accusations

422
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Speaker 1: of many affairs. He would only admit to one. He

423
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Speaker 1: said he had an affair with a former coworker named

424
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Speaker 1: Susan Hayes, who testified about the affair during the trial.

425
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Speaker 1: And the defense attorney says, what did Sam say about

426
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Speaker 1: his wife? Did he say nasty things? And she says,

427
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 1: on the contrary, I remember him saying he loved his

428
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:37,479
Speaker 1: wife very much, although not so much as a wife.

429
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Speaker 1: So this is a best friend, co partner situation, it

430
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: sounds like.

431
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Speaker 2: And is this an active affair at the time of

432
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Speaker 2: the homicide.

433
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,479
Speaker 1: I believe so. So I think that this is an

434
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,480
Speaker 1: active affair that he's having, okay, or wrapped up very

435
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: shortly before.

436
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he was just stupid at not divulging that

437
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:57,120
Speaker 2: early on.

438
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: I think that's an understatement. Yes, very stupid. Why people

439
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: do that just because they're freaked out. They think this

440
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:04,959
Speaker 1: is all going to go away. They think somebody's never

441
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 1: going to find this out. Police always find this stuff out,

442
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: you know.

443
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,719
Speaker 2: And Sam's head, he's probably thinking, this woman is in

444
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,880
Speaker 2: love with me, she'll stay quiet and it always unravels

445
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 2: if you are cooperating with police, tell the truth about

446
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 2: these types of things, because when you don't, it becomes

447
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 2: that much more suspicious.

448
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the defense comes in and says, listen, I

449
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: know he was having an affair, but he loved his

450
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,959
Speaker 1: wife and he really was looking forward to having a child.

451
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: He said that just days before Marilynd's murdered, the Shepherds

452
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: have been talking really excitedly about having this baby, and

453
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 1: it suggested to the brothers. Of course it's Sam's brother,

454
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,439
Speaker 1: but it suggested to him that they were in a

455
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: really good place in their marriage. I'm not sure an

456
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,679
Speaker 1: affair will ever be an indicator of any kind of

457
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 1: a good position in your marriage. But they're really trying

458
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: to say that that was not a motive. I have

459
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 1: not read whether or not Marilyn knew about this affair.

460
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 2: And how many times have there been cases where a

461
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 2: woman is killed, the husband or partner is found to

462
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 2: have had an affair, and they become suspicious, and then

463
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 2: later on they're exonerated when it turns out, no, it

464
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 2: really was a stranger who came in. You have these

465
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 2: situations where homicides do occur because the husband is wanting

466
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 2: to move on to a new life. Those happen, but

467
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 2: you also have the opposite. So just this as motive

468
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 2: can cut both ways.

469
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: And there are some silly things that I think are

470
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: brought in. For example, the prosecutor said that the killer

471
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: had to be Sam because the family dog was not

472
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:46,199
Speaker 1: heard from neighbors barking at all. You don't see this,

473
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: but Paul just rolled his eyes. Even I can see

474
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: it from.

475
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 2: Here, you know, hearkening Golden State killer. Again. There are

476
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 2: so many times the victims said, our dogs always bark

477
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 2: when there's a strange man in the house, and for

478
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 2: some reason they not this time around. You know, you

479
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 2: can't rely on that, especially to end up trying to

480
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: stack up a case against the defendant. You have to

481
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 2: have something more substantive.

482
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 1: I think it's a pretty weak case. It really is

483
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 1: the who else could have possibly done it? Scenario? He

484
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 1: gets on the stand, Sam Shepherd literally added nothing. I mean,

485
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 1: he just said the same thing over and over again.

486
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: I was attacked by a bushy haired man, and I

487
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 1: don't remember anything else, and so I don't know if

488
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: it added anything.

489
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 2: No, outside of he's being consistent, you know, and oftentimes

490
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 2: when somebody does get on the stand on their own behalf,

491
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 2: then you know a good prosecutor can start ripping them

492
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 2: apart with all the inconsistencies in evaluating his original statements.

493
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 2: In many ways, if he is lying but he's keeping

494
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 2: the details minimal and vague, it makes it easier down

495
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 2: the road in order to kind of stick to the

496
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 2: same story versus providing all sorts of details. And not

497
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 2: that I want anybody out there to kind of get

498
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 2: a tip on how to get away with the crime,

499
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 2: but I'm now assessing his testimony versus original statements, and

500
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 2: he's being consistent. Now is he being consistent because he's

501
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 2: telling the truth, or is he consistent because he doesn't

502
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: have to remember a whole bunch of details.

503
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,880
Speaker 1: Now let's talk about the forensics. You will remember the

504
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 1: oddly shaped stain that we found on Mariland's pillow. The

505
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,360
Speaker 1: prosecutor is now saying that this conclusively was caused by

506
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: a weapon that had been a medical object, some sort

507
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 1: of a medical tool. I don't know what he's thinking

508
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 1: that is. He was very vague, but he said, based

509
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: on the pattern, could you predict what kind of weapon

510
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: was used? From your point of view? After seeing that

511
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 1: pillow just based on the pattern that didn't make any

512
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 1: sense to me.

513
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 2: There was that one within the larger blood pool, this

514
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 2: one which appeared to be a very symmetrical, almost C

515
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 2: shaped or claw like pattern, which if I saw the

516
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 2: proposed tool, I would might be able to say yes

517
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,639
Speaker 2: or no to saying yes that it could cause that shape. Okay,

518
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 2: but I'm not even sure that that is something that

519
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 2: is from the weapon. You know, that could just be

520
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 2: a coincidental phenomena that occurred within the blood pattern by

521
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 2: just a bloody object pressing down onto this pillow.

522
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: Let me ask you. I'm going to check in with

523
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 1: you now because the jury is getting ready to issue

524
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: its verdict. Is this a first degree murder case? Is

525
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: there enough evidence from what you can hear from Sam

526
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 1: Shepherd for them to convict with a good conscience him

527
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: a first degree or second degree murder was also on

528
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: the table.

529
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 2: No, I don't think that there's sufficient probable cause for

530
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 2: an arrest with the information that I've been provided. He

531
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 2: is in play for sure right now in my mind.

532
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 2: A conclusion as to whether this is a stranger or

533
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: Sam Shepherd, both theories are in play.

534
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, This is where things get interesting. You would

535
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: think this is the end of the story, but it's

536
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: really the beginning of it. The jury comes back December

537
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: twenty first, nineteen fifty four, so this is five months

538
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: almost six months later, and he is found guilty of

539
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: second degree murder, life in prison. So what does that

540
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: mean they think happened that night?

541
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 2: Well, if it's second degree murder and the statutes are

542
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 2: like the statutes in California, it was a homicide that occurred.

543
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: Maybe there was a fight, a disagreement, and in the

544
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: heat of the moment, Sam Shepherd bloods and Maryland to

545
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 2: death and then staged the crime scene, her body, the

546
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 2: stolen items to make it look like a stranger had

547
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 2: come in, and also staged you know, the injuries to himself.

548
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: So this is a heat of the moment. This is

549
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: not pre planned. It something happened and he was just

550
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: quick on his feet.

551
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, Yes, that's what I believe that they are

552
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 2: saying happened that night.

553
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: Okay. So Sam Shepherd is sentenced to life in prison

554
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: and he goes off. He's transferred to a maximum security

555
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: prison outside of Columbus, Ohio, and then less than a

556
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: month later, so this is probably January of nineteen fifty five.

557
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: His defense attorney reaches out to a California criminologist named

558
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,239
Speaker 1: Paul Kirk. So, I know, tell me go ahead and

559
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: talk about Paul Kirk, because I know you you are

560
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: very appreciative of Paul Kirk.

561
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 2: I am you know, of course, he was a criminalist

562
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: out in the Bay Area. I believe he was associated

563
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,959
Speaker 2: with the UC Berkeley for part of his career, if

564
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 2: not all of his career. I'm not sure exactly what

565
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 2: his career path took. But my laboratory, Contracosta County Sheriff's

566
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: Crime Lab in Martinez, California, was founded in nineteen fifty

567
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 2: nine by Dwayne Dillon, who was formerly San Francisco PD.

568
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,959
Speaker 2: He came over but because of Paul Kirk and the

569
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 2: academic studies that were being done at cal Berkeley in criminalistics,

570
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 2: the Contra Costa County Sheriff's Lab hired students of Paul Kirk,

571
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: and so part of the philosophy of Kirk was passed

572
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 2: into my lab and my mentor, if I will, from

573
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 2: a CSI standpoint, a forensic philosophy standpoint, and ethics standpoint

574
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 2: is John Murdoch who was chief of my lab at

575
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 2: the time. I was hired as originally as a friends toxicologist,

576
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 2: and then I took Crimes the Investigation course from John Murdoch,

577
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 2: and then I ultimately when I became chief of the lab,

578
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 2: I hired him back well after he did a almost

579
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 2: two decade stint with ATF. He's a worldwide known firearms examiner.

580
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 2: But I in some ways I look at myself as

581
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 2: sort of being forensic descendant of Paul Kirk.

582
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: Boy. He was really well respected. And I knew about

583
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: Paul Kirk because when I was doing my book American

584
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: Sherlock Oscar Heinrich actually consulted with Kirk on Kirk's very

585
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: first criminal case, and Kirk wrote him a letter and

586
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: I found the letter, and you know, Heinrich was giving

587
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: him some advice, and among the biggest thing is you

588
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: need to simplify what you say to a jury on

589
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,479
Speaker 1: the stand, because Heinrich suffered his whole career from I'm

590
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: sure a lot of forensic scientists you know, who get

591
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: on the stand start spouting out phrases that are five

592
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: syllables long, and you just see the jury glaze over.

593
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: And Rich fought that and he said, you don't do

594
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: that fight to Paul Kirk, you need to simplify everything

595
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: you say, which I thought was great advice.

596
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: Well, that is fundamental to scientific testimony.

597
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 1: Well, Heinrich was a big Paul Kirk fan, and I

598
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: can see why with his work on this case. I

599
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: want to take a slide aside because I know that

600
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: we talk about many of Heinrich's cases, just because I've

601
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,719
Speaker 1: had access to his archive, and I've had a couple

602
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: of inquiries about his name, which is spelled h EI

603
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: n R I C H, and I pronounce it Heinrich,

604
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: and people have said it's Heinrich, it's not, it's hein Rich.

605
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: And the reason I know, let me tell you how

606
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: I know, because I got into his archive and I

607
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: was Heinrich this, Heinrich that. And I got into his

608
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: archive and I found a letter from his assistant to

609
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: a radio station that had done a really extensive piece

610
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: on a train robbery. And in that letter, he ripped

611
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: into that TV station about the way that they pronounced

612
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: his name, and he spelled it out phonetically. Okay, he said,

613
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: it is not Rick, it is Rich. And so I thought, okay,

614
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: we're gonna go with hein Rich because I don't need

615
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: a descendant coming after me by saying his name wrong.

616
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: So yes, folks, I know it's you would normally say

617
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,359
Speaker 1: hein Rich. It is hein Rich, though, and I am

618
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: gonna go to the grave saying hein Rich because I

619
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: want to respect what he wanted.

620
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: You validated it, You found the evidence.

621
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: And this is why you go into archives when you

622
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: do these kinds of projects. So let's get to the

623
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: nitty gritty of what Paul Kirk found. So he launched

624
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: an investigation on his own. And this is not very long.

625
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: I mean it's not like ten years. It's just a

626
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: few months. He publishes a nineteen page report for the

627
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 1: defense attorney that gave a lot of credence to the

628
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: possibility of that Shepherd was not Marilynd's killer. So this

629
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: is now, I want to know, this is your sort

630
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 1: of forensic hero. I want to know what you think

631
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 1: about everything he said. Here are a list of his findings.

632
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: Number one, he believed that the killer was likely left handed.

633
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: Sam is right handed? Is this based on? Now put

634
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: yourself in between the two beds, like you said, we

635
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,720
Speaker 1: and we have the blood droplets in the spray, against

636
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: the doors underneath the door knobs. Do you think that's

637
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 1: how he came to that conclusion? And is that a

638
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: reliable conclusion? It's okay if it's not, Paul, it doesn't

639
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: make you less of a fan. It's okay.

640
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 2: There are times where the cast off patterns if you're

641
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 2: able to reliably position the offender relative to the victim

642
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 2: to be able to accomplish the wounding pattern, that's what

643
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 2: you see, and you can see definitively you know where

644
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 2: cast off is occurring. You can say, yes, some of

645
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 2: the blows after there was a pooled blood source are

646
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 2: indicating that the weapon took this pathway. But would I

647
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 2: conclude right versus left handed? No, you know, I might

648
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 2: say it appears that the effect under is utilizing the

649
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: weapon in the right hand, but that doesn't mean that

650
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 2: the person is capable with their offhand of committing the

651
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 2: same types of blows. And the dynamics of these situations

652
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 2: as the victim is still alive really can complicate that.

653
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 2: So right now I think he is relying on possible

654
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 2: cast off, maybe the wounding patterns and where he believes

655
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,720
Speaker 2: the offender was standing to conclude that I just wouldn't

656
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 2: put it as a definitive statement at all.

657
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 1: Okay, so that's one piece of information that seemed actually

658
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: pretty convincing. I agree with you. All kinds of wacky

659
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: things happen in the middle of a crime. The next

660
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,800
Speaker 1: thing involves the ABO system, which we like to talk about,

661
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 1: you know, blood types. He ran a test that inexplicably

662
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: nobody else ran during this trial, ran a test on

663
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: a large blood stain on the closet door in the bedroom. Okay,

664
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: so there's a blood stain on the closet door that

665
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: we don't have a photo of, and he finds that

666
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,720
Speaker 1: that blood stain is not a match in the ABO

667
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 1: system for either Sam or Maryland. And it's a big

668
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: piece of evidence because it's not a tiny cut, it's

669
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: a large stain. It came from somebody.

670
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 2: Okay. You know, I've actually done ABO testing early on

671
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: in my career, you know, so I am very familiar

672
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 2: with you know, how Paul Kirk would have tested this,

673
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 2: you know, to determine the ABO type from the stain.

674
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 2: And of course that's part of the evidence, is the

675
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 2: blood type. But there also has to be is does

676
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 2: the stain look like it is being deposited contemporaneously at

677
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 2: the time of the homicide. Is this an older stain?

678
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,479
Speaker 2: Where is its location relative to everything else that's going

679
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 2: on In this case, I would need to assess that

680
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 2: blood stain in context with that abo type that isn't

681
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 2: Maryland and Sam's. But I also want to know, well,

682
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 2: what type is it and what type is Maryland and

683
00:37:58,239 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 2: what type of Sam?

684
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,440
Speaker 1: Right, and I don't have that information. I would make

685
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: the assumption that he would be able to know, you know,

686
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: in this time period, and he would because I know

687
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 1: Heinrich did this too. He would be able to know

688
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: whether this was old blood or new blood and what

689
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 1: the context was, right, he thought it was relevant. I'm

690
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: assuming I'm going to.

691
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 2: Make the assumption he does think it's relevant, you know.

692
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 2: And of course that now is a concern, is that

693
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 2: if you have a bleeder that is shedding blood at

694
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 2: the state. And I was meaning to bring this up earlier.

695
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 2: You mentioned this blood trail right leading out of the house. Yep. Okay,

696
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 2: so the evaluation of this blood trail is very important.

697
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:42,280
Speaker 2: Now you have a bloody weapon, okay. So as that weapon,

698
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 2: let's say, is just being held by the offender walking

699
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 2: out of the house and this offender per sam statement

700
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 2: of saying, he's going through the house after the homicide.

701
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,319
Speaker 2: So do we see a dripped trail down stairs? Is

702
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 2: the weapon with dripping blood the source of the blood

703
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 2: trail leading out of the house. There's a finite amount

704
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 2: of blood on this weapon. Typically you do not see

705
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 2: very long blood trails. As the weapon is shedding blood

706
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 2: and creating this dripping pattern, it tails off. He's milling

707
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,280
Speaker 2: about downstairs and then now going out with this weapon.

708
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 2: Supposedly it's that long of a trail. I'm now thinking,

709
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 2: you know what, that sounds like an active bleeder, where

710
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 2: now you have an ongoing source of fresh blood, if

711
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 2: you will, that can feed that trail for as long

712
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 2: as what it sounds like this trail was. Was that

713
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: trail tested by Kirk.

714
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 1: Not that I know of. I think that this is

715
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: less than a year later, imagining that this was all

716
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: cleaned up. They've probably sold the house, I'm assuming by then,

717
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 1: or this had all been cleaned up because they closed

718
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: the case. So I'm guessing not.

719
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is where there would be a failing

720
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 2: of the CSI who's processing the scene to go okay,

721
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 2: I possibly have an active bleeder. I need to sample

722
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 2: the drops of this trail just in case I have

723
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 2: an active bleeder. The offender left with an injury.

724
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm looking back at my notes and it

725
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: says there's a trail of blood drops leading from the

726
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: stairs and outside. What would be the explanation for that?

727
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: If Sam is the killer, if he didn't injure himself visibly.

728
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 2: Sam doesn't appear to have any bleeding injuries.

729
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: No, just some bruising. So where's the blood coming from.

730
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 2: The only way that that trail is occurring is going

731
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 2: to be from the offender, and could be from Marylyn

732
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 2: and the transfer of a large quantity of blood onto

733
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 2: the weapon or onto you know, the fender's hands. But

734
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 2: without seeing photos and having distances of this trail the

735
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 2: way it's you are describing it, it sounds like this

736
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 2: trail is fairly extensive, and you just don't see that

737
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 2: with something where you have blood dripping off of a weapon, right,

738
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 2: you'll get a trail, but it's not going to be

739
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 2: you know, down the stairs and going outside. You know

740
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 2: that that would be unusual.

741
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: When I hear about theories, sometimes if I don't believe them.

742
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,399
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. I call them squishy theories. I think

743
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 1: Paul Kirk has a little bit of a squishy theory here,

744
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 1: but I could be completely wrong. He says that because

745
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 1: he examined the fragments of Marilyn's upper front teeth that

746
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: were found near her bed, that perhaps they were broken

747
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: or pulled out when she was biting her attacker, and

748
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: Sam had no bite marks. So I think he's using

749
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 1: this as a way to exclude Sam. Does that make sense?

750
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I would have thought she'd broken her teeth

751
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,760
Speaker 1: during this horrific fight that she was having with her attacker.

752
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, she's got blows that include her lower face.

753
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 2: Teeth are commonly smashed. You find these teeth, you know,

754
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 2: near the victim's head. If the teeth are actually broken,

755
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 2: this is more consistent with a hard weapon and a

756
00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 2: forceful blow to the mouth than somebody biity and the

757
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 2: person pulling away. I don't buy that at all.

758
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: I agree. Now I'm going to say this word wrong.

759
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: Paul Kirk believes that the weapon that was used to

760
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 1: bludge in Marylyn was not some heavy medical instrument, but

761
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 1: it was something cylindrical. Did I say that right? Cylindrical?

762
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: It was likely something cylindrical like a pipe or a flashlight. Now,

763
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: is there a basis for that?

764
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 2: Paul Kirk must be seeing that the wounding patterns are

765
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 2: very consistent. A pipe produces a linear wounding pattern if

766
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:35,279
Speaker 2: it's using on the side versus being poked. And I've

767
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: seen pipes being used poke. You see this little circular

768
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 2: wound that can happen. But he must be seeing a

769
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: uniformity in her wounding pattern and they're all fairly linear.

770
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 2: And of course the overlapping part can complicate really determining

771
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 2: a lot. But if there's some separate wounds, then he

772
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 2: may have a point there. But it is trying to

773
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 2: definitively say this is the type of weapon. You can

774
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 2: say it's consistent with a pipe, but maybe this other

775
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 2: proposed tool has surfaces that if it happened to strike

776
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 2: Maryland just the right way, would produce the same type

777
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 2: of wound.

778
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: Well, what you're saying that definitely makes sense. However, there

779
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: was some evidence that for Paul Kirk was luckily popped

780
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 1: up a year after this happened. The attack happened, there

781
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 1: was a swimmer who was swimming in the lake right

782
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 1: by his house, right by Sam Shepherd's house and found

783
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: a flashlight, dented flashlight that did not belong to Sam

784
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,919
Speaker 1: Shepherd in the water, kind of embedded in the bank

785
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: near his house that we're now presuming was the weapon.

786
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: Maybe when you think about that, but Paul Kirk, now,

787
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: well it.

788
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 2: Needs to be evaluated. Is that the weapon or not.

789
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: There has to be more association linking it back to

790
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 2: the crime. With the amount of blood that would have

791
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 2: been on this flashlight, she's being hit in the head.

792
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 2: You could have hairs that are caught up some of

793
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 2: the crevices of this flashlight, you know, that would possibly

794
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 2: survive being submerged for a year. I would need to

795
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 2: see greater justification than just so all the shape of

796
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 2: the wounds is consistent with this flashlight. You know, that

797
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,720
Speaker 2: could just be a coincidental thing that was found out there.

798
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 2: There has to be a greater level of association to

799
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,720
Speaker 2: conclude that that flashlight is actually the murder weapon.

800
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: And I don't think they found it, or if it

801
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: were there, it wouldn't have been something that in nineteen

802
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: fifty five could have been detected because it's not mentioned

803
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: in any of his notes. They use this report that

804
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 1: seems fairly convincing and they file a motion for a

805
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: new trial, but the Eighth District Ohio Court denies it

806
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: and says, no new trial, Sam Shepherd, You're going to

807
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: sit in prison for the rest of your life. So

808
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: he's in maximum security prison and in the early sixties

809
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 1: he starts writing with a German woman named Arianna and

810
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 1: they eventually get married while he's in prison, and at

811
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 1: the same time, The Fugitive starts run, which was a

812
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: big TV series in sixty three, and we can't say

813
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 1: for sure, but it's been widely believed to have been

814
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 1: inspired by Sam's case, and this TV series shifted the

815
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: public perception of what happened when we get word that

816
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 1: this was based on Sam Shepherd's case, which is the

817
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:24,240
Speaker 1: complete opposite effect of Jeffrey MacDonald's movie, which was Final Vision,

818
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: which just framed him horribly as a killer of his

819
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 1: wife and two children. The Fugitive really shows the turmoil

820
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: that Sam Shepherd went through. The media is shifting public

821
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: perception of a case.

822
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think we're seeing that in the current day, YEP,

823
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 2: with some of the documentaries done on cases in the

824
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 2: true crime genre, where it can be very biased towards

825
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:49,280
Speaker 2: a certain theory.

826
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 1: I agree. We now have a suspect, and it's interesting

827
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 1: how they get this suspect. So now you need to

828
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: think back and think, Okay, of all the stuff we've

829
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: talked about and all of the question marks we've had

830
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: about Sam Shepherd, does this suspect make sense? So in

831
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: November of nineteen fifty nine, police arrest a man named

832
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: Richard Eberling, who I'll just call Richard from now on.

833
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 1: He was arrested for larceny and they search us home

834
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: and they find this very pretty cocktail ring that they

835
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: recognize as part of the inventory of things that are

836
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: missing from Maryland Shepherd's home. Richard Eberlin was a window

837
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,879
Speaker 1: washer at the Shepherd's home. Oh, so he had been

838
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: in the home before.

839
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 2: Well, now the question that I have is is was

840
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 2: that ring stolen during the homicide or was that ring

841
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:42,839
Speaker 2: stolen just bye Eberling as a burglary before the homicide.

842
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 2: And can they conclusively show that this is Maryland's ring?

843
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 1: They can. He says that he found her ring when

844
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: he was doing work at Sam's brother's house, that he

845
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 1: found various rings from Maryland in a box that was

846
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 1: labeled Maryland's personal items. Sam doesn't know anything about this.

847
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,879
Speaker 2: But Sam's brother had possession of this box.

848
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: Right, that is what happened. But nobody remembers getting a

849
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: box or not getting a box, so they can't there's

850
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 1: no denying or not.

851
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 2: They can't go to Sam's brother and ask, hey, where

852
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 2: was this box? Okay, can you describe the box?

853
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 1: He didn't remember. He didn't remember whether he had got

854
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: I know, it could have been a very long time,

855
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: but Sam was able to say, this is my wife's ring.

856
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 1: So he is this man who now has been arrested

857
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 1: for a different charge, is in possession of Marilyn Shepherd's ring.

858
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 2: You know, I actually have a little bit of an

859
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 2: issue with the confirmation that this is Maryland's ring, because

860
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,280
Speaker 2: look at who's confirming it's Sam, who has an interest

861
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 2: in another man having his wife's ring. And then Sam's

862
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 2: family members and possibly even Maryland's family members possibly have

863
00:47:55,600 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 2: a bias to protect Sam. So at this point I

864
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 2: still think there's a little bit of a question mark

865
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 2: in my head that they can conclude it's Maryland's ring.

866
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 1: I understand that I mean very much along the lines

867
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 1: of the flashlight in the lake. There are many things

868
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: I'm sure people dump in lakes all the time that

869
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 1: we can interpret as weapons. So the police becomes suspicious,

870
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 1: of course, because he has what we presume to be

871
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 1: Maryland's ring, and he has a very squishy, weird explanation

872
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 1: for it. So the police lie to Richard. They lie

873
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: to him and say that they found a tremendous amount

874
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 1: of his blood that they can conclusively say was his

875
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: blood inside the Shepherd home after Maryland's murder, and Richard,

876
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: of course, clueless that the police can actually lie to him,

877
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 1: gives them an explanation. He said that he had been

878
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 1: cut inside that home in the days before she was

879
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,759
Speaker 1: killed on a I'm assuming on a broken window, and

880
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 1: this could have caused a lot of blood. And of

881
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: course the police call bs on this. What do you

882
00:48:59,160 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 1: think about that?

883
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 2: Did they ask him to describe exactly where he cut himself,

884
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,800
Speaker 2: where he went into the house after he cut himself.

885
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 2: I'd want to see is he able to provide details

886
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 2: that make sense and that can be corroborated. You know,

887
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,399
Speaker 2: we talked a little bit about this with Kirk saying

888
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:21,760
Speaker 2: this blood stain larger blood stain is a different ABO type.

889
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 2: So now is this stain deposited at the time of

890
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 2: the homicide. Well, if the blood is just a couple

891
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 2: of days older than the blood that's being deposited at

892
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 2: the time of the homicide, there's really nothing that is

893
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 2: going to tell a forensic scientist that time difference. It

894
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 2: will look the same, you know, unless it's you know,

895
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 2: you're there right after the homicide and you can see

896
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 2: the fresh stains in an older stain. Did they determine

897
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 2: if Everling had the same ABO type as this blood

898
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:54,280
Speaker 2: in the bedroom?

899
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 1: Don't jump ahead, Paul, I have more information, I know.

900
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 2: To me, this is the obvious.

901
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 1: Well I know, I know, so let me tell you

902
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,399
Speaker 1: what happens. Ultimately, they can't pin it on him at all,

903
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 1: so he's cleared. In fifty nine he's totally cleared. He

904
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: took a polygraph test, which, you know, whatever it is inconclusive,

905
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: doesn't say anything. Sam's legal team is constantly filing appeals

906
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 1: and petitions. They're almost all denied. He finally gets a

907
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: lawyer who seems to be able to do something. Flee Bailey.

908
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: I'm sure we're familiar with E. Flee Bailey, Romo J.

909
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 1: Simpson Fame. This is a very young E Flee Bailey,

910
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,240
Speaker 1: And when I hear about Bailey in court cases in history,

911
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 1: it always starts with Sam Shepherd. To me, that's when

912
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: I hear the most about him. He, like others, accuse

913
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 1: the judge in fifty four of not protecting the trial

914
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 1: and moving him out of Ohio or Columbus, and this

915
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 1: time a court agrees, then it gets overturned. It's just

916
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: an on and on saga for Sam Shepherd. Eventually he's

917
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 1: released from prison for posting a ten thousand dollars bail

918
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 1: while the case goes through the legal system after eleven years,

919
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: so he's been eleven years in prison. He's out on

920
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 1: bail because there's enough doubt. I suppose that there are

921
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: all these different avenues that he's going down, and somebody negotiated,

922
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 1: if Lee Bailey negotiated for him to get out. Eventually,

923
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: it makes it all the way to the Supreme Court. Ultimately,

924
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:24,879
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court ends up supporting the original ruling, which

925
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 1: said that the judge should have moved out of Columbus,

926
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 1: that it shouldn't have been in Columbus to begin with.

927
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: The Supreme Court said the judge hadn't adequately insulated the

928
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 1: trial from the overwhelming publicity and all of that media coverage.

929
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 1: So there is a retrial in sixty six and it

930
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 1: wraps up in November. Basic same evidence, except now lots

931
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 1: of reasonable doubt. Now we have a jury that is

932
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:49,800
Speaker 1: twelve years later who doesn't know as much about the case,

933
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: and he is found not guilty.

934
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,800
Speaker 2: And you also have a competent defense attorney.

935
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 1: That's an understatement of fly Bailey. Yes, even at a

936
00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: young age, I'm sure was very competent. So he gets

937
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 1: out of prison in sixty six and in sixty seven

938
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 1: he gets his medical license back. The medical Board renews

939
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 1: his license. This is where things get unfortunate for Sam Shepherd.

940
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: And I did not know any of this. So he

941
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 1: gets his medical license back. After twelve thirteen years, he

942
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 1: comes out and within months of being able to perform surgeries,

943
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: he has sued for several deaths. Two deaths of two

944
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 1: patients okay during surgery, and this makes things very hard

945
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: for him. He gets a divorce in sixty eight from

946
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 1: his wife. He descends into drug and alcohol addiction, and

947
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 1: he has a third marriage. He has a stint as

948
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: a professional wrestler.

949
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 2: Oh wow, that's not what I was expecting. At all.

950
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: Do you know his nickname the Killer?

951
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,360
Speaker 2: Oh? Come on, Sam, I mean Sam poor judgment.

952
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 1: He is then found dead in his home in April

953
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 1: sixth of nineteen seventy and his cause of death is

954
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:01,720
Speaker 1: liverfifl you're at forty six.

955
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 2: Wow?

956
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 1: Does that mean alcoholism? Is that what you think that is?

957
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 2: It would suggest that for sure, you know, based on

958
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 2: his life patterns, heavy drinking, could be various drugs, you

959
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:15,240
Speaker 2: know that he may be taking. I kind of always wondered,

960
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,480
Speaker 2: you know, with this Sam Shepherd being exonerated and out

961
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 2: and about whatever happened to.

962
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 1: Him, right, not good things happen, So we get a

963
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 1: little bit more of a information his little Sam, I

964
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 1: call him Little Sam. I don't know if that's what

965
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 1: they called him. But Sam Reese Shepherd, who was the

966
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,919
Speaker 1: seven year old at the time, always continued to work

967
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:36,800
Speaker 1: to clear his dad's name, and he co wrote a

968
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 1: book called Mockery of Justice that I've flipped through that

969
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: was pretty compelling. It argued that, of course, for Sam's

970
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 1: innocence and said, this guy, this windw washer is the

971
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 1: one who did it. And I don't understand why, you know,

972
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 1: we are not looking closer at it. And I guess

973
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 1: you know, people this was from ninety five, figured that

974
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 1: Sam Shepherd who died in nineteen seventy, it was over

975
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,800
Speaker 1: case closed, he got out, you know, let's let it drop.

976
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: The problem was Richard Eberlin goes on to kill someone.

977
00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: He's given the life sentence for the murder of a

978
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 1: woman in a very similar case, and he dies in

979
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight in prison. Oh okay, but that's not

980
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:18,760
Speaker 1: the end of the story, because I did promise DNA

981
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 1: and now I need help analyzing it. We have Sam Shepherd,

982
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 1: who's now dead, and from nineteen seventy we have why

983
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 1: would consider to be the prime suspect for the bushy

984
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:32,799
Speaker 1: haired stranger who died in ninety eight, And you have

985
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: now investigators who are looking at the development of DNA evidence,

986
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:41,360
Speaker 1: who are saying, let's start looking at this case again.

987
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 1: They have both tests. One comes out in ninety seven.

988
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 1: I asked Maren for clarification because I knew that the

989
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 1: dates were going to be very important to you, because

990
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 1: we all know that it's like every year something new

991
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 1: happens with DNA technology. So two tests run. Both tests

992
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 1: were carried out by the DNA technical manager at the

993
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 1: inn Indianapolis Marion County Forensic Services Agency. Okay, they found

994
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 1: semen which the coroner had not found or missed or

995
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:10,879
Speaker 1: didn't acknowledge.

996
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:12,919
Speaker 2: Off the vaginal swab, Yes, they did.

997
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 1: This expert who ran the DNA in ninety seven was

998
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:20,399
Speaker 1: the first test. The result was that James Eberlin, who

999
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 1: was the window washer, shared a key genetic marker with

1000
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 1: both the blood and the semen taken from the crime scene.

1001
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:34,840
Speaker 1: But it ultimately wasn't conclusive. So shared a genetic marker.

1002
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 1: What does that mean? You look frustrated.

1003
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's awfully vague. So in nineteen ninety seven

1004
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 2: is when the test was done.

1005
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:48,799
Speaker 1: Correct, first test. There's another test, Okay, I hope.

1006
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:53,320
Speaker 2: So at this point, you know, this is a transitionary

1007
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 2: time with DNA technology we've mentioned before. You know, DNA

1008
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 2: first really came into the public awareness here in the

1009
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 2: United States in nineteen ninety five. Of course law enforcement

1010
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 2: had been using it prior to that, but you know

1011
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,840
Speaker 2: it was being presented for you know, the public consumption

1012
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 2: during the oj trial publicity, and you saw so many

1013
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 2: different DNA experts testifying because this was new technology and

1014
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 2: there was also a change in the technology that was

1015
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 2: occurring in the mid nineties, from this old RFLP technology,

1016
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 2: which is what Alec Jefferies used, you know, back over

1017
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 2: in Britain in nineteen eighty eight, and then we were

1018
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:37,439
Speaker 2: seeing a transition to this PCR based technology, which at

1019
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 2: the time you know, was these testing strips dq alpha

1020
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 2: and maybe polymarker at this point in time. So in

1021
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:50,640
Speaker 2: ninety seven, I believe there were labs that were still

1022
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 2: doing RFLP. If that was the test that was being done,

1023
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:58,360
Speaker 2: It's possible that they got just a very very partial

1024
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:04,720
Speaker 2: RFLP profile and then maybe one of the fragments happened

1025
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 2: to match Evering. It would not, in my mind, be

1026
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:11,120
Speaker 2: very strong evidence that the blood and semen was in

1027
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 2: fact Everling's. I would want to see that revisited with

1028
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 2: modern STRs.

1029
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: I agree with you. They ran another test in ninety

1030
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 1: eight and tested samples from Sam's body just to exclude him,

1031
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: and he was excluded as one of the blood donors

1032
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 1: at the scene, So I don't read that they included Ebling,

1033
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 1: but it excluded Sam from the mystery blood that was there,

1034
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: which again I mean, it's helpful to exclude, but I'm

1035
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 1: not sure that really does that tell us any new information?

1036
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 2: You know, with the assumption that this blood was deposited

1037
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 2: at the time of the homicide, then it really opens

1038
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 2: up the door for somebody else present who is bleeding. Right,

1039
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 2: The DNA testing sounds like it's being done and sort

1040
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:03,960
Speaker 2: of like you know, sort of these little spurts if

1041
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 2: you will, you know, so at some point and hopefully

1042
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:13,440
Speaker 2: they didn't consume all these samples. At some point, these samples,

1043
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 2: the semen as well as the bloodstain need to be

1044
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 2: tested with modern DNA technology, you know SDRs. If it

1045
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 2: doesn't match, everling, then you do genealogy on it.

1046
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:28,400
Speaker 1: Let me read you more information that I got from

1047
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 1: our researcher Marin. So based on the person you know, whoever,

1048
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 1: whoever the expert was who pulled it, this is exactly

1049
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 1: what he said. He says in ninety six he received

1050
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:41,640
Speaker 1: a vaginal swab which was taken from Maryland's body after

1051
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 1: the murder and intended to try to extract DNA using

1052
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: the epithelial cells because there was no DNA sample for

1053
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,000
Speaker 1: Maryland in evidence.

1054
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:55,760
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, I understand what he's doing. So they didn't

1055
00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 2: take like a blood standard at autopsy for Maryland.

1056
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:00,880
Speaker 1: Doesn't sound like good. He said he found a tiny

1057
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 1: amount of sperm, which was a surprise because he was

1058
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 1: told that the sample didn't have any sperm.

1059
00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 2: So you know, he has a vaginal swab. It's not

1060
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 2: a surprise that he would detect sperm. And back in

1061
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 2: the day, they didn't observe the sperm. So you have

1062
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 2: to understand at autopsy pathologist takes a vaginal swab, and

1063
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:23,880
Speaker 2: this was a practice in the nineteen fifties all the

1064
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:26,600
Speaker 2: way up really up until mostly through my career.

1065
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you this is very specific and

1066
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 1: you'll understand all of this. So this is directly from

1067
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 1: the study that he did. The DNA from the vaginal

1068
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 1: smear sperm fraction is also a mixture of DNA from

1069
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:45,040
Speaker 1: at least two sources, since four alleles are seen in

1070
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 1: it at h lah DQAI locus qu alpha.

1071
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll just say dqu alpha.

1072
00:59:51,320 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 1: And three alleles at each of the h egg and

1073
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 1: gc loki. So here are the results, Okay, and maybe

1074
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:01,200
Speaker 1: this is I want to make sure that this is

1075
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 1: interpreted correctly. Marilyn Shepherd and Sam Shepherd are excluded as

1076
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 1: part contributors of this DNA. All alleles at the six

1077
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 1: loci type of the DNA from Richard Eberling are present

1078
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:21,920
Speaker 1: in this mixture DNA, and hence he cannot be excluded

1079
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 1: as a part contributor of this mixture DNA. There's more

1080
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 1: of it? Is that enough to give you an idea

1081
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 1: of what's happening?

1082
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 2: Not with this technology, but it sounds like okay, So

1083
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 2: Maryland and Sam are excluded from this mixture. Eberling is included.

1084
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 2: But then there's another person present. That's what he's concluding.

1085
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 1: So he says DNA from Richard Eberling together with one

1086
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 1: or more unknown sources has to be considered to explain

1087
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:52,920
Speaker 1: all alleles from this mixture. The DNA extracted from the

1088
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:56,400
Speaker 1: vaginal smear sperm fraction is also a mixture of DNA

1089
01:00:56,440 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 1: from at least three donors. Because the presence of five

1090
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 1: and possibly six alleles and three alleles blah blah, neither

1091
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 1: Richard Everlan nor Marilyn Shepherd can be excluded as part

1092
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 1: contributors of DNA of this mixed DNA sample, since the

1093
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 1: possible presence of the one point to allele cannot be

1094
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 1: ruled out in this mixture. Although it is not directly

1095
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 1: observed Sam Shepherd cannot be definitively excluded as a part contributor. Nonetheless,

1096
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 1: any combination of DNA from the known subjects tested does

1097
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 1: not explain all alleles of this mixture. Locus blah blah blah,

1098
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 1: and that's it.

1099
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 2: So you know he's utilizing this stop blaw technology. Though

1100
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 2: better than the old technology, the ABO and the enzyme

1101
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 2: testing that we did, it had greater discrimination. It was very,

1102
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:50,120
Speaker 2: very poor when it came to dealing with mixtures because

1103
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 2: you basically are just reading these dots and there's only

1104
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:57,080
Speaker 2: so many dots, so to try to deconvolute, well, how

1105
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:01,560
Speaker 2: many contributors do I have? Which allele? Which markers can

1106
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:05,920
Speaker 2: I attribute to the known individuals? In this case, At

1107
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 2: a certain point you're looking at a mixture and you go,

1108
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 2: I could basically include everybody. So this is where again,

1109
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:16,720
Speaker 2: they need to do this with modern str technology on

1110
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 2: modern instrumentation. So I hope they had enough DNA left

1111
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 2: over after this testing in order to proceed with the

1112
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:25,360
Speaker 2: current technology.

1113
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 1: Let's just say we're not going to be able to

1114
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 1: find out. Let's just say that this case lies where

1115
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:33,640
Speaker 1: it lies right now. Richard Ebling was convicted of killing

1116
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 1: a widow eighty four year old woman in eighty four.

1117
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 1: He was also suspected in murdering this woman who he killed.

1118
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 1: Her sister also was murdered about twenty years earlier. He

1119
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:50,480
Speaker 1: died in prison. He had familiarity with the house. He

1120
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 1: had what we presume what everyone says was Marilynd's ring

1121
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 1: in his possession. There seemed to be something funky happening

1122
01:02:57,520 --> 01:03:00,720
Speaker 1: with the DNA, with the blood or the bad swab.

1123
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:03,520
Speaker 1: Does this line up more to you now to be

1124
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:07,840
Speaker 1: a murder committed by Sam Shepherd or the only real

1125
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:10,560
Speaker 1: other suspect we've had, which is Richard Eberlin.

1126
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 2: You know, at least with the testing done, it's less

1127
01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 2: than satisfactory to me. And I'm not criticizing the lab

1128
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 2: or the analyst who did it. It's just, you know,

1129
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:23,200
Speaker 2: the limitations of this technology and very possibly the evidence

1130
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:26,640
Speaker 2: you are dealing with, very old evidence in the nineties,

1131
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 2: and technology that's not as sensitive as what it is today.

1132
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 2: But I do believe that this creates reasonable doubt that

1133
01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:41,320
Speaker 2: Sam Shephard was involved in Maryland's homicide, and there is

1134
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:48,360
Speaker 2: the possibility to argue probable cause that Everling was involved.

1135
01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:51,360
Speaker 2: Now does it rise to the standard of reasonable doubt?

1136
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 2: I bet in the nineties a prosecutor might have been

1137
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 2: able to argue through circumstances as well as with the

1138
01:03:56,680 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 2: forensic testing and get a conviction. I just know from

1139
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:03,640
Speaker 2: my perspective, I want to be sure and I want

1140
01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 2: the modern technology done on it.

1141
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:09,360
Speaker 1: And that's why the murder of Marilyn Shepherd is still

1142
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:15,840
Speaker 1: technically an unsold case. There's no satisfying, definitive answer from anybody.

1143
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's frustrating. Now, circling back with Sam Shepherd, Everling

1144
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:24,680
Speaker 2: became a suspect in the late fifties, right fifty nine, Yes, okay,

1145
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:28,280
Speaker 2: so Sam Shepherd is still alive. Everling was a window

1146
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 2: washer at the house. Did Sam Shepherd say that he

1147
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 2: had met with Everling at any point?

1148
01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:37,080
Speaker 1: I don't know. I suspect from what I had read

1149
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 1: that it was maybe in passing, if anything.

1150
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, because I was just kind of wondering if

1151
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:44,040
Speaker 2: if they had a close enough relationship. Let's say this

1152
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:47,640
Speaker 2: guy's at the house on a regular basis to wash

1153
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 2: the windows with Sam Shepherd readily recognize Everling as a

1154
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:53,760
Speaker 2: former window washer.

1155
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. Sam Shepherd is a Neurosurgeon's probably

1156
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 1: a pretty busy guy and maybe gone all the time.

1157
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:02,600
Speaker 1: What I find curious, and we can end on a

1158
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:05,840
Speaker 1: little note of mystery. What I find curious is that

1159
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:10,440
Speaker 1: if it is Richard Everling, and if he stole Mariland's

1160
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 1: ring during the murder, after the murder, whatever it was,

1161
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:17,760
Speaker 1: he kept it from fifty four until the police found

1162
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 1: it when they searched him. Sure, is that a trophy souvenir? Souvenir?

1163
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:26,080
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, I prefer the term souvenir. You know,

1164
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:29,960
Speaker 2: this is something that the offender has has taken in

1165
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:33,520
Speaker 2: remembrance of what they have committed, the crime they've committed,

1166
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 2: of that particular victim. It signifies something to them. It

1167
01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 2: also is a source of fantasy material for them. You know,

1168
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 2: they will pull out these souvenirs and relive the crime.

1169
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:47,440
Speaker 2: So this sounds like here you have a thief convicted,

1170
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 2: I mean of larceny, you know, back in the day.

1171
01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:53,680
Speaker 2: So why is he stealing items? He's stealing them for

1172
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 2: financial gain. The only way you get financial gain out

1173
01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:59,000
Speaker 2: of jewelry is you pawn it, you sell it. Whatever.

1174
01:05:59,120 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 1: And he didn't.

1175
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:01,720
Speaker 2: Nope, he wants to keep it.

1176
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 1: That's exactly right.

1177
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, his criminal history, his association with the house,

1178
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 2: the biological evidence inside the house. Though I'm less than

1179
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:15,960
Speaker 2: satisfied with the technology that was employed, but that's all

1180
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:19,280
Speaker 2: they had back in the day, circumstances kind of the

1181
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 2: weakness of a case against Sam Shepherd right now. Yeah,

1182
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:27,000
Speaker 2: I really do think that Everling is likely responsible for

1183
01:06:27,120 --> 01:06:28,400
Speaker 2: Maryland's homicide.

1184
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:32,280
Speaker 1: It's a mystery, and this is an enduring mystery, the

1185
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:34,800
Speaker 1: case of Sam Shepherd. I think I'm sure people will

1186
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:39,720
Speaker 1: always be debating it, and next week I will bring

1187
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:41,960
Speaker 1: you another mystery, I promise.

1188
01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:44,000
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm looking forward to it again.

1189
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:52,360
Speaker 1: Thanks. This has been an exactly right production.

1190
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:55,280
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia

1191
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 2: dot com slash Buried Bones sources.

1192
01:06:57,960 --> 01:06:59,919
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emmer.

1193
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:03,440
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1194
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:06,000
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

1195
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:08,480
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1196
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:10,760
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1197
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:15,160
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1198
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1199
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:19,680
Speaker 1: Baried Bones.

1200
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

1201
01:07:22,680 --> 01:07:25,000
Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

1202
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:27,320
Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now, and

1203
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:32,200
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, my life solving America's cold cases,

1204
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:33,560
Speaker 1: is also available now