1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. 3 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 2: Hi, welcome to a new episode of Noble Blood. I 4 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 2: am talking today with Peter k Anderson, who is a 5 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 2: senior lecturer in history at Oraboro University in Sweden and 6 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 2: author of the new book Fool in Search of Henry 7 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 2: the Eighth's Closest Man, which is a book about the 8 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 2: personal history, but also I would say, the social and 9 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 2: political history of Henry the Eighth's fool, William Summer, and 10 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 2: also just of royal fools in general. Hi, how are you. 11 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 3: I'm good. It's a pleasure to be here. 12 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us all the way 13 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 2: from Sweden. Let's just start with the basics. Who was 14 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: William Summer, or, as he was sometimes known, Will Summer. 15 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, William or will Most people who were named William 16 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 3: were nicknamed will In this period. Will Summer was Henry 17 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 3: the Eighth's fool, so he is known mostly as the 18 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 3: King's fool, but he was not just Henry the A's fool. 19 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 3: He was the court fool at the British Royal Court 20 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 3: from about fifteen thirty up until his death in fifteen sixty, 21 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 3: and that's when Queen Elizabeth First had just been crowned. 22 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 3: So he was a royal fool with Mary and King 23 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 3: Edward and up until Elizabeth First. 24 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: And also considering Henry's famously rocky marriage situations, this is 25 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 2: one of the longest term relationships he had in his life. 26 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 3: Yes, that's true. I've never thought about it that way, 27 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 3: but yeah, they must have had some sort of special relationship, 28 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 3: so to speak. What the nature of that relationship was 29 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 3: we will discuss, but it's not very clear cut. As 30 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 3: the title indicates, he was a person who was very 31 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 3: close to Henry the eighth in one way or another. 32 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 2: Before we get into Summer's biography or what we know 33 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 2: of his biography. I think people when they hear, you know, 34 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 2: medieval fool, they sort of think of a juster hat 35 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 2: with bells and shoes with pointed feet. How close is 36 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 2: that popular perception to the reality. 37 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 3: Not particularly in this case. I think there were fools 38 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 3: in Motley wearing the cap with bells and so on, 39 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 3: but mostly this seems to have been some sort of 40 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 3: stereotype about the fool. When we come to this period, 41 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 3: the Renaissance, most fools, at least the fools we find 42 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 3: in portraits. The fools that are depicted and that we 43 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 3: can identify, they don't look anything like that. If you 44 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:55,080 Speaker 3: see a typical portrait of a Renaissance fool, you wouldn't 45 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 3: know that it was a fool if you didn't look closely. 46 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 3: There is very little too identify them as fools in 47 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 3: their portraits. And this goes especially for Will Summer, who 48 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 3: was depicted many times in portraits, but always looking very mysterious, 49 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 3: very brooding, never smiling or anything like that, a very 50 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 3: sort of mysterious and almost dark figure. 51 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 2: So what do we know about the life of Will Summer? 52 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,839 Speaker 2: Who was this man who was so prominent at one 53 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 2: of the most famous Renaissance courts in history. 54 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 3: We know very little about him, and the sort of 55 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 3: contemporary references to him you could fit them on one 56 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 3: piece of paper. Really. The thing about Will Summer is 57 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 3: that quite a legend grew around him after his death. 58 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 3: So when you look at the late sixteenth century and 59 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 3: the period of Shakespeare and so on, there's quite a 60 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 3: lot of references to him. 61 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 2: There. 62 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 3: There's some sort of mythology around him, and he is 63 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 3: invoked as a sort of mythological gesture of the past, 64 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 3: a sort of almost godlike figure in comedy, so to speak, 65 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 3: and a lot of playwrights include him in place about 66 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 3: the reign of Henry the Eighth, where he's depicted as 67 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 3: a very sort of jesting and shrewd comic, and a 68 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 3: lot of books were written about him in that period, 69 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 3: but very little of what you can find in that 70 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 3: period is truthful. And when you start to move closer 71 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 3: in on his own period and the sources that are 72 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 3: closest to his life, you see that he was quite 73 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 3: a different character. He was probably what was called in 74 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 3: those times a natural fool. You had this distinction between 75 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 3: natural and artificial fools, and artificial fools constituted what we 76 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 3: would call a comedian, basically someone who was skillful at 77 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 3: being funny. But natural fools were employed based mainly on 78 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 3: what we would today called an intellectual disability. It could 79 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 3: be other things as well. It could be persons with 80 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 3: a very sort of rural or common background who would 81 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 3: be a contrast to the other peoples at court in 82 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 3: a way that would be considered amusing. But natural fools 83 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 3: were not the sort of shrewd wits that they are 84 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 3: sometimes depicted as in Shakespeare place or later fiction. 85 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: One thing that I found so fascinating about your book 86 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 2: is how you sort of trace how some are the 87 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 2: character in fiction. In plays is depicted as this famous wit, 88 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 2: as a man of the people, who sort of this 89 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 2: outside observer who's able to comment on the insanity of 90 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 2: court or the indulgences of the church, even though as 91 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 2: you lay out in Summer's lifetime, he almost certainly wasn't, 92 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 2: at least, you know, a famous wit by anything that 93 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 2: he was doing purposefully. How did that shift happen? 94 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 3: That's a good question, really, it's difficult to say. I mean, 95 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 3: it's very The image that you describe is, of course 96 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 3: very attractive to us. We like to think of the 97 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 3: fool as someone who sort of looks through all the 98 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 3: performances and all the role playing going on at court, 99 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 3: and who is a bit more like us, perhaps, and 100 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 3: who sort of represents our perspective on this period. But 101 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 3: it wasn't like that, and it's difficult to say how 102 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 3: this shift in the image of will Summer happens. But 103 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 3: when we go a bit closer to his own lifetime, 104 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:37,239 Speaker 3: you see anecdotes about him, stories told about him where 105 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 3: you can find perhaps a grain of truth. You can 106 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 3: find little facts and little nuggets of information that you 107 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 3: can single out because they don't really have any purpose 108 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 3: in the anecdote. So it's just something that is mentioned 109 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 3: in passing. Things like the fact that he came from Shropshire, 110 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 3: apparently that he had a strange ability to fall asleep 111 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 3: in odd places, which is mentioned in a posthumous biography, 112 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 3: but also in his own lifetime and so on. So 113 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 3: there are little things when we get closer to his 114 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 3: own lifetime that might have a basis in the truth. 115 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 2: I love that detail of him frequently falling asleep because 116 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 2: listeners might be familiar with the fictional novels of Hilary Mantel, which, 117 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,559 Speaker 2: as you point out, she briefly alludes to Will Summer, 118 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 2: but paint him almost as a narcaliptic, which I love 119 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 2: when fiction just takes it a detail. 120 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 3: She does a big thing about that that he has 121 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 3: you know, he has to have an attendant when he's 122 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 3: in town so that he doesn't fall asleep in the 123 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 3: street and so on. There is no source about that, 124 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 3: but we have these indications that he might have had 125 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 3: that sort of condition. So she does a funny thing 126 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 3: about that. 127 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that you alluded to earlier, the fact 128 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 2: that Summer is featured in numerous portraits I think four 129 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 2: that we know for sure, sometimes with Henry the Eighth 130 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 2: at his side. Was that common for fools at the 131 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 2: time or does it say something about Summer's relationship with 132 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: Henry the Eighth? 133 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 3: It wasn't that common in England. Actually. The only other 134 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 3: example is there's a portrait of Thomas Moore with his family, 135 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 3: which includes his own fool. And you can find examples 136 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 3: from other countries, the Spanish court for instance, as on, 137 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 3: but in England this doesn't seem to have been a convention. 138 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 3: So that's quite interesting to find him in several portraits. 139 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 3: There are no portraits of William Summer alone, we haven't 140 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 3: been able to find anything like that, but he is 141 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 3: included in a lot of family portraits, dynastic portraits where 142 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,319 Speaker 3: he is standing in the background, and when you compare 143 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 3: all these different portraits to each other, you can easily 144 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 3: recognize this man, and you can also see a bit 145 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 3: how he gradually becomes older and older as time passes. 146 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 3: There are, of course posthumous portraits he was invoked and 147 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 3: used as a sort of mascot of the court even 148 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 3: up until the time of Elizabeth First, So he was 149 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 3: probably viewed and used as a source of symbol of 150 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 3: the continuity of the Tudor court. 151 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 2: That's fascinating that these portraits of him are less to 152 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 2: feature him as an individual and more just what he 153 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 2: represented as a symbol. One other sort of I think 154 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 2: maybe modern stereotype we have about the medieval and Renaissance 155 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 2: fool is the idea of jester's privilege, that the gester 156 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 2: gets to say anything that he wants and he won't 157 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 2: get in trouble to speak truth to power. In the book, 158 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 2: you refer to it as the legendary fool's license. Can 159 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 2: you talk a little bit about that idea? 160 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 3: Yes, and that, as I said, it connects a bit 161 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 3: with this myth that has grown around fools as literary characters. Really, 162 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 3: you find that a lot of course in shakespeare place, 163 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 3: which often include a fool character that is very sort 164 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 3: of shrewd and very amusing and clever and so on. 165 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 3: The thing about the fool's license and so on, that 166 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 3: that is a bit of a myth, really, because when 167 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 3: you look at the real fools in the period before this, 168 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 3: they were not treated very very respectfully. They were they 169 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 3: were definitely not sort of taken seriously in any way. 170 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 3: I would say that perhaps they had a sort of 171 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 3: cart blanche in a way that they weren't taken seriously, 172 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 3: and they were considered fools, so they could in a 173 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 3: way say what they wanted, but what they said was 174 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,839 Speaker 3: so little regarded, so it wasn't really a thing or 175 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 3: or something that would sort of have any political importance. 176 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 3: So the natural fools, which were sort of the majority 177 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,719 Speaker 3: of fools in this time, they were not licensed in 178 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 3: any way like that. They had a relevance. Of course, 179 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 3: they were entertainers in one respect, they were also sort 180 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 3: of symbols of the deviance of something different, something curious. 181 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 3: In a way. They were in a way sort of 182 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,680 Speaker 3: part of the royal curiosity collections. The role was something 183 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 3: quite different from the sort of myth that emerged in 184 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 3: literature later. I mean, it comes partly from Shakespeare, partly 185 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 3: from writers like Erasmus of Rotterdam, who wrote about the 186 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 3: Praise of Folly pamphlet and so on. But then it 187 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 3: starts actually to influence the role of actual court fools. 188 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 3: When you come into the seventeenth and early eighteenth century. 189 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 3: Then you find fools that are more artificial fools. They 190 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 3: begin to be called court justice more than earlier, and 191 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 3: that's a different type of fool. 192 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 2: Really. 193 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 3: They are more sort of clever and shrewd, and they 194 00:11:53,960 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 3: do have the odd moment of sarcassm and criticism. Archie 195 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 3: art Armstrong was the main fool in the English court 196 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 3: in the in the seventeenth century, and he got into 197 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 3: trouble a few times for saying witty or shrewd things 198 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 3: that weren't very popular with the king. 199 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 2: And sometimes fools like will Summer were disciplined quite harshly. 200 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 2: It wasn't necessarily an easy or fun life. There are 201 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: some violence that you remark on in this book. 202 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 3: Yes, they were disciplined, and especially Will Summer, we see 203 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 3: was subjected to physical punishment and chastisement. As a contemporary 204 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 3: play by a court poet called John Heywood, he sort 205 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 3: of references the conditions of court fools at this time, 206 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 3: and he has a long list of how they are treated. 207 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 3: Some beat him, some bob him, some job him, some 208 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 3: job him, some tug him by the ass, some lug 209 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 3: him by the ears, some spitted him, some on him, 210 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 3: and the list goes on and on and on. So 211 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 3: it was quite an obvious thing at this time that 212 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 3: the fool was someone who was physically punished a lot. 213 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 3: And this long monologue ends saying that not even will 214 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 3: some o, the king's own fool, can avoid this kind 215 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 3: of treatment. So he was definitely treated in the same 216 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 3: way as other fools, and by the way, as children 217 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 3: and servants in this period. 218 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 2: And there's an allusion you make in the book to 219 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 2: a fool, possibly Summer, who said something that insulted the 220 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 2: queen and princess that insulted court. Can you speak. 221 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 3: We don't know if it is will Summer. Possibly it is, 222 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 3: And in that case, there's an ambassador who mentions this 223 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 3: in a letter home to Spain, and he he says 224 00:13:54,240 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 3: that the king's own fool slandered the king's mistress and 225 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 3: the king flew into rage and nearly nearly murdered him 226 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 3: or threatened to murder him or something like that, and 227 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 3: the fool had to go in hiding. So this isn't 228 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 3: really the only the only sort of proof we have 229 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 3: that the King Henry would have become physically violent himself 230 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 3: towards his fool. But it is very interesting and it 231 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 3: shows that, Yeah, the carte blanche fool's license and so on, 232 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 3: but you could over overstep the mark, of course, and uh, 233 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 3: and even though you were just a fool who just 234 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 3: said foolish things, perhaps now and then there were moments 235 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 3: when when when the fool said things that could enrage 236 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 3: the king. Of course, possibly this this is not Will 237 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 3: Summer at all. Possibly this is some sort of clever 238 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 3: fool who had a very brief stint at the royal court. 239 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 2: So we made brief for by his lack of tact exactly. 240 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, And maybe Will Summer was better in that respect 241 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 3: because he didn't. There are no other other sources really 242 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 3: of him being critical or anything like that. 243 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 2: One thing that I find very interesting about your book 244 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 2: is how you talk about the influence that the Renaissance 245 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 2: fool has on the modern stand up comedian, and you 246 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 2: sort of suggest that that link isn't as clear as 247 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 2: some historians like to believe, and that it's almost as 248 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 2: if the idea of the Renaissance fool is what influenced 249 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 2: the idea of modern comedians more than the actual fact. 250 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, we like to think of medieval fools 251 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 3: sometimes perhaps some sort of precursor to the modern stand 252 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 3: up comedian. They stood up in front of the dinner 253 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 3: guests and had like a monologue or something like that. 254 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 3: There is some there's a Woody Allen film where he 255 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 3: plays a medieval fool in just the same way as 256 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 3: he is normally. That's, of course a very appealing thought, 257 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 3: but I don't think it was quite like that, especially 258 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 3: not when we spoke speak about the natural pools of 259 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 3: the Renaissance. The link that I try to sort of 260 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 3: put forth in my book is that the taste for 261 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 3: natural foolery in the Renaissance was based on a sort 262 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 3: of comic taste for the natural, for the spontaneous comedy 263 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 3: and some sort of authenticity, and that this should in 264 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 3: some way have been taken further with the with the 265 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 3: image of the court fool in Shakespeare and related to literature, 266 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 3: and in that way, the sort of because Shakespeare expresses 267 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 3: this sort of pension for more sort of natural and 268 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 3: spontaneous and comedians who don't laugh at their own jokes 269 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 3: and so on, that's that's the sort of things that 270 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 3: Hamlet says he likes in that place. So possibly there 271 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 3: is a line to identify there, which goes forward to 272 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 3: today when we perhaps often think of spontaneous comedy or 273 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 3: a sort of natural streak in comedy as something to 274 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 3: be strived after. Hmm and yeah, so so. But but 275 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 3: it's not very it's not a sort of straight line 276 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 3: from from the medieval fool to the stand up comedian. 277 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 2: Shakespeare is famous for his fools that he's written, except 278 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 2: in his History Henry the Eighth, he specifically does not 279 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 2: include Will Summer. Why do you think that is? 280 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 3: I don't know. I think I think there are There 281 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 3: have been different explanations for that. One is that his 282 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 3: regular clown actor, Robert Armand wasn't available at that time. 283 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 3: I don't think Shakespeare wanted to do what all the 284 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 3: other playwrights did, so he left Will Summer out of 285 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 3: his play. But he but he still he has a 286 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 3: prologue that says to the audience, you know, you won't 287 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 3: find this fool in this play that you might expect 288 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 3: in a play about Henry the Eighth. So apparently the 289 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 3: fool's absence had to be explained away. And this shows 290 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 3: that it was on sort of a convention to include 291 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 3: Will Summer and in these very popular history plays about 292 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 3: the reign of Henry. 293 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 2: Yet, as you say in your book, the information we 294 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 2: have about Summer's life is incredibly sparse, and you almost 295 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 2: have to read between the lines in various legends and 296 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 2: secondhand anecdotes that we get about him. Why as a 297 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 2: historian were you drawn to this figure. 298 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 3: I've had a long standing obsession with court fools as 299 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 3: a sort of historical problem. Really, I mean, naturally, there 300 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 3: have been earlier historians writing books about this, the history 301 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 3: of the fool from the antiquity really too up until today. 302 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 3: And I've written a book myself in Swedish unfortunately, called 303 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 3: the History of the Comedian, where I tried to see 304 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 3: this sort of long history. There is something special about 305 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,439 Speaker 3: the court fool and the fool in the Renaissance or 306 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 3: the early modern period. They aren't, as I said, the 307 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 3: sort of typical precursor of the modern comedian. They are 308 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 3: not just entertainers. If we look at Will Summer, for instance, 309 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 3: he is never listed in payments or accounts together with 310 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 3: other entertainers. You have a list of the sort of 311 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 3: the minstrels and the musicians and all those people. He 312 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 3: is never among those. He is always listed separately, perhaps 313 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 3: together with stable boys or something like that. Very strange, 314 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 3: So apparently he belonged to a different category. And that's 315 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 3: also what you see when you look closely at the 316 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 3: Renaissance fool, that they had a sort of ceremonial or 317 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 3: almost ritualistic purpose, which you can sort of trace back 318 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 3: to earlier times when the fool had a sort of 319 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 3: almost scapegoat symbolic importance. And of course there's also a 320 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 3: lot of theology involved in this, and the image of 321 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 3: the fool in the Bible and so on. 322 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 2: You speak to the contradiction of the fool as a 323 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 2: figure someone who is sometimes physically disciplined in a cruel way, 324 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 2: treated cruelly laughed at, but that there is this almost 325 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 2: religious side where they're considered almost godly, closer to God 326 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 2: in that sense. Can you speak to that contrast a 327 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 2: little bit. 328 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,679 Speaker 3: Yes, that's very interesting because not even modern scholars have 329 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 3: really been able to resolve that contradiction. If you look 330 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 3: at theological writings on fools or references to fools, you 331 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 3: can find both a sort of tradition about the so 332 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 3: called holy fools, the image as you said, that fools 333 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 3: were closer to God or had some sort of innocent 334 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 3: connection with God and so on. And this tradition is 335 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 3: very clear if you look at authors Christianity. I think 336 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 3: if you look at Russia, for instance, you can find 337 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 3: a lot of ideas about holy fools. But then there 338 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 3: are other ideas which also say that that fools are 339 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 3: almost like devils, they are godless, And there's a Psalm 340 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 3: line the fool hath said in his heart there is 341 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 3: no God and so on. So there is like a 342 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 3: tradition connecting atheism to foolishness, because it's foolish to deny 343 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 3: the existence of God. And this also sort of implicates 344 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 3: and comes into play where when people speak about fools 345 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 3: in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, so it was 346 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 3: very much ambivalent, and I think this is visible also 347 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 3: when you look at the treatment of ordinary fools like 348 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 3: Will Summer. 349 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 2: It almost is is an interesting through line to how 350 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 2: people in the Renaissance and early modern period viewed mental 351 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 2: disability intellectual disability. 352 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 3: Absolutely, and that's a big issue of coursed which a 353 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,479 Speaker 3: lot of historians have treated and are beginning to study 354 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 3: more and more. What you can say about that is 355 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 3: of course that it's difficult to apply our terminology on 356 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 3: that period, because the terminology back then was completely different, 357 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 3: and the definitions and what you sort of what was 358 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 3: and wasn't a disability then was different. But even there 359 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 3: you can see this ambivalence. You can see a lot 360 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 3: of empathy and a lot of care, especially in communities 361 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,400 Speaker 3: taking care of people with a disability and so on, 362 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 3: but also the cruelty and the beating and the sort 363 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:46,479 Speaker 3: of very cruel humor that fools are subjected to. The 364 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 3: fool is a sort of bully victim really in a 365 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 3: lot of situations, and that's often the most obvious modern 366 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 3: parallel when when you study fools this time. 367 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 2: Bully in the sense that they were the ones being bullied. 368 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, bully victims very much so. So there aren't 369 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 3: any more obvious bullies in history than Henry the Ah. 370 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 3: So it's very suitable this particular fool, but also in 371 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 3: other cases. 372 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 2: Of course, you mentioned earlier the sort of nebulous position 373 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 2: that Will Sommer had in court, not part of the chamber, 374 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 2: but also not quite part of the household. What might 375 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 2: his daily life have looked like. Obviously we don't know, 376 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 2: but just if you had to. 377 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 3: Imagine, yeah, that's very interesting. Some people earlier suggested that 378 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 3: he had his own sort of quarters in the royal 379 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 3: palaces and so on. I don't think that was the case. 380 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 3: I well, in that case, a very something very simple 381 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 3: and perhaps together with servants or stable boys or something 382 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 3: like that. There's even a reference in one of the 383 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 3: anecdotes about him. It says that after he had been 384 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 3: entertaining the king, he went into a corner of the 385 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,239 Speaker 3: room to sleep with the spaniels, so suggesting that that 386 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 3: he slept in the dog basket basically. And there are 387 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 3: theories about fools and dwarfs at this time being sort 388 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 3: of human pets. And you can see that image sometimes 389 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 3: when you when you see him falling asleep and being 390 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 3: sort of in the background, lounging around, being quite comfortable really, 391 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 3: but also treated with this combination of sympathy and and 392 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 3: cruelty that that you might compare with the pets. So 393 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 3: so there is that dimension in it, really. So possibly 394 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 3: his his daily life would be something like that. He 395 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 3: would it would be around, especially when called for, but 396 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 3: he would also probably live outside of the court, and 397 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 3: his life outside of court we know very little about. 398 00:24:54,960 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 3: So there is a there is a a documentary in 399 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 3: the Royal Archives with payments for him being washed and 400 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,439 Speaker 3: shaved and his feet being washed. And this is in 401 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,680 Speaker 3: connection with the coronation of Mary Tudor. So it's quite 402 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 3: possible that he was not at court before that, but 403 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 3: he was taken in. Maybe some servant was sent out 404 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 3: to find him in a tavern in London or something, 405 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 3: and he was taken in because you had to have, 406 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 3: of course Henry the Eighth Fool around for the coronation. 407 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 3: So he was taken in, he was shaved, he was 408 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 3: fitted with new clothes, washed and so on. 409 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 2: And I believe he was also president at the coronation 410 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 2: of Elizabeth as well. 411 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, that's one of the last sort of records 412 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 3: we have of him in his life. 413 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 2: That sort of also image of the fool as more 414 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 2: of a pet or mass got I think also fits 415 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: with this idea of him being featured in portraits. What 416 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 2: sort of information have you gleaned about Willsommer from the 417 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 2: visual aspect of him that we get in his portraits. 418 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 3: Well, it's quite difficult to I mean, it's very easy 419 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 3: to get ahead of yourself and draw foregone conclusions based 420 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 3: on his appearance. We can't really say anything about his 421 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 3: appearance based on the portraits apart from the fact that 422 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 3: he was simply but nicely dressed. Sometimes you can even 423 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 3: identify the clothes he wears in the portraits with records 424 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 3: from the wardrobe accounts where these specific items of dress 425 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 3: are ordered for him. His hair was cut short, which 426 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 3: was common in fools. There's also a portrait of the 427 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,719 Speaker 3: Queen's fool at one point, Jane Fool. We know very 428 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 3: little about what she is. Also, she also has her 429 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 3: head shaved, so this was this was something that was 430 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 3: done in other fools as well. Apart from this, you 431 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 3: can'tantly say anything about him from based on the portraits. 432 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 3: But it's very frustrating, of course, because you have these 433 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 3: portraits and you can recognize him, and in the very 434 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 3: good portraits, of course, you can really see this is 435 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 3: a real person. So you get very intrigued and very 436 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 3: and you want to know more. But then you have 437 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 3: to go to other types of sources to be able 438 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 3: to learn something more substantial about who he was. 439 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 2: One point that you make in the book that I 440 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 2: just found so fascinating is this idea of what folklore 441 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 2: historians called tradition dominant that when folk heroes are sort 442 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 2: of being added to the cultural lexicon, they're almost like 443 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,919 Speaker 2: slotted into cultural archetypes that already exist that you know, 444 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 2: you'll just apply a local hero to a trope of 445 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,199 Speaker 2: a type of hero that people already know about. So 446 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 2: with that said, we don't really know any specific justs 447 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,679 Speaker 2: that Will Summer did specifically, because he might have just 448 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 2: been used as you know that we mean, you know, 449 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 2: we know. 450 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 3: I mean, there are of course contemporary records that I 451 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 3: study in the book which are sort of references to 452 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 3: him saying things, and that seems to have been the 453 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 3: main sort of appeal of him, that he had. He 454 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 3: had a tendency to put his foot in his mouth, 455 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 3: to say things that others found funny, that that sounded stupid, 456 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 3: or something like that. Sometimes it's like it's difficult to 457 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 3: say is he being intentionally funny here or is it 458 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 3: just a gaff that people have sort of recorded here. 459 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 3: And that's also interesting, of course, because was he sort 460 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 3: of doing something himself deliberately or was he simply a 461 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 3: bolivicly subject to circumstances and too other people's mockery and 462 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 3: so on. But you can actually find that's the most 463 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 3: interesting sources where people in letters or pamphlets say something 464 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 3: that Will Summer has said, or that they have heard 465 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 3: that he has said. Absolutely, Yeah, you get closest to him. 466 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 3: But it's also very very strange because you never you 467 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 3: never hear his own voice. 468 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,479 Speaker 2: Absolutely, I just met sort of the larger stories that 469 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 2: have surrounded him. Also as the decades went by, I 470 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 2: was wondering if you had a favorite just that had 471 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 2: been attributed to him, either correctly or incorrect. 472 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 3: Okay, oh, that's a good, good question. I mean, he 473 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 3: doesn't seem to have been, and that also sort of 474 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 3: says something about his personality. He doesn't seem to have 475 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 3: been like a practical joker or a physical comedian, which 476 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 3: other fools at this time could be. There are other 477 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 3: stories of fools, you know, eating a lot of laxatives 478 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 3: and then sitting on top of the face of someone 479 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 3: who's sleeping, something like that. 480 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 2: It's always funny. It was funny hundreds of years ago, 481 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 2: it's funny today exactly. 482 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 3: And I mean, who wouldn't love studying court fools in 483 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 3: the Renaissance when you read a story like that. But 484 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 3: Will Summers everything is much more subtle and therefore it's 485 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 3: very much more interesting, but also very difficult to sort 486 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 3: of get at him. But the things he said and 487 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 3: the quotes from him are funny in themselves. But the 488 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 3: thing that the sort of the motto that he had 489 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 3: that most people who quote him refer to is you 490 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 3: should you shouldn't abide by anything I say, And that 491 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 3: becomes us a sort of figure of speech among courtiers 492 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 3: in this time. Oh as Will Summers says, you shouldn't 493 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 3: abide by anything I say, they sort of remark in passing, 494 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 3: and that's just a fool who. Yes, maybe he had 495 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 3: a tendency to put his foot in his mouth and 496 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 3: so on, but maybe he was also a bit self 497 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 3: conscious about this. Wouldn't he have have become that after 498 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 3: all these years being being a court fool? So there 499 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 3: you see just a hint of a person back behind 500 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 3: those words. I mean, it's not quite Gratio Marx. I 501 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 3: wouldn't belong to a club that would have me as 502 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 3: a member, But it's not that far from it, because 503 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 3: there is some sort of self consciousness there about the 504 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 3: silliness and the foolishness of the fool, and also perhaps 505 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 3: a bit of you know, sadness about how he had 506 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 3: ended up and what his status was as a man. 507 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 3: Don't abide by anything I say. That's that's the sort 508 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 3: of that's his message in a way which I think 509 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 3: you can Yeah, you can go on and analyze that 510 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 3: for quite a long time. 511 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a brilliant place to wrap up 512 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 2: the sort of subtle tragedy of a man who's lefele 513 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 2: has far outlived him. Peter Anderson, thank you so much. 514 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 2: This has been such a pleasure. If you're interested in 515 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 2: learning more about Will Summer or the cultural and political 516 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 2: history of the Fool, pick up fool. Thank you so much, 517 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 2: and have a lovely evening. I'll enjoy my day in 518 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 2: Los Angeles and you enjoy your evening in Europe. 519 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 3: Yes, thank you. It's a pleasure really. 520 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm and 521 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: Mild from Aaron Manky. Noble Blood is created and hosted 522 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: by me Danashboard, with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston, 523 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: hannah's Wick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman. The 524 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: show is edited and produced by Noemi Griffin and re 525 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: i'ma il Kahali, with supervising producer Josh Thain, and executive 526 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: producers Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more 527 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 528 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.