1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: Time for a vault episode. This is an older episode 4 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: of our show. This one originally published March seventeenth, twenty 5 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: twenty two, and it's part two of our series on 6 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: Finn McCool, the legendary Irish hero. Welcome to Stuff to 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, welcome to 8 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb 9 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two 10 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: of our series about the legendary Irish hero Finn McCool. 11 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: If you haven't heard part one, you should go back 12 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: and listen to that one first. This one will make 13 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: a lot more sense if you do. But at the 14 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: end of the last episode, we promised you that this 15 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: episode would be the one that's all thumb, because, of course, 16 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: one of the great legends about Finn McCool is the 17 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: so called Thumb of knowledge. We teased it a few 18 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: times in the previous episode, but now we're finally here. 19 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: We're finally to the thumb factory. That's right, Finn is 20 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: not merely a warrior and a hunter and a defender 21 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: of his people. He also has the gift of divination. 22 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: His prescience puts him in keeping with the likes of 23 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: Paula Treads, But he doesn't take spice or enter a 24 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 1: Prana Bindu trance in order to see the future, or 25 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 1: is it sometimes described to gain wisdom. Instead, he puts 26 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: his thumb in his mouth. Is the most heroic thing 27 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: I can picture. I mean, imagine the movie poster. It's 28 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: like your action movie hero. They've got the sword, their 29 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: hair is blowing in the wind, maybe their armor is 30 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: splattered with blood and mud. And also he's just got 31 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: his thumb in his mouth. Now. In the last part 32 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: of the series, we referenced a few works by a 33 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: scholar named James McKillop, who has written extendly on Finn 34 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: McCool and on Irish smith and legend. For example, I 35 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: cited him when I was talking about the version of 36 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 1: the Giant's Causeway story that involves that involves the the 37 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: Ben and Donner Giant, the rival giant being replaced with 38 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: one named Kucullen, which is totally confusing because that's the 39 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: name of a different Irish folk hero. But this was 40 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: also the version of the story where Finn McCool bites 41 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: off the rival giant's finger when the giant is tricked 42 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,919 Speaker 1: into putting the finger into his mouth. But I think 43 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: you were also reading something by James McKillop on on 44 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: the origins of this thumb story, right, yeah, yeah. According 45 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: to McKillop, the details on how the thumb is utilized 46 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 1: vary according to the you know, the different tellings. Sometimes 47 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: it's described as a sucking of the thumb, much like 48 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: an infant would would suck on a thumb or fingers. 49 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: Other Times it's described as a chewing of the thumb, 50 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: And sometimes it's specifically that the thumb is placed behind 51 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: the upper teeth, which I guess is something that is 52 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: as more or less happening with any kind of infantile 53 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: sucking of the thumb anyway, but they seem to make it. 54 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: Sometimes the point is made that it's like the thumb 55 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: is coming into contact with the palette and pressing. All right, So, 56 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: as amusing as the image of an action hero sucking 57 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: his thumb might be the idea of an action hero 58 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: biting his thumb, that's pretty close, But that seems a 59 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: little more maybe on the money, especially when you take 60 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: into account some historical considerations, because the idea of biting 61 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: his thumb immediately made me think of the classically confusing 62 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: scene from Shakespeare the infamous do you bite your thumb 63 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: at us, sir? The scene from Romeo and Juliet, rob 64 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: Do you remember coming across this in school and having 65 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: no idea what to make of it? Yes, I distinctly 66 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: remember this, probably when we were watching an adaptation of it, 67 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: and yeah, there's the whole scene with I bite my 68 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: thumb at you, and I remember everyone getting a real 69 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: kick out of that. Yeah, it's like it's one of 70 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: those where you know what it means, but you don't 71 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: know what it means, Like you get the gist, but 72 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: you don't understand what they're talking about. Because so the scene, 73 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: for anybody who hasn't read it, it's in Romeo and Juliet, 74 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: Act one, Scene one. We get servants of the two 75 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: rival houses, the Montagues and the Capulets. They run into 76 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: each other in the street and they're they're trying to 77 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: stir things up there. They're trying to provoke a fight 78 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: because they hate each other. And so a character from 79 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: one house says, do you bite your thumb at us, sir? 80 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: And the guy from the other house says, I do 81 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: bite my thumb, sir? Do you bite your thumb at us, sir? 82 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 1: And then the guy who's biting his thumb lead leans 83 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: aside to his friend and he says, is the law 84 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: on our side if I say I? And his friend 85 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: says no, it is not. So he says, no, sir, 86 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: I do not bite my thumb at you, sir. But 87 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: I bite my thumb, sir. So it's it's sort of 88 00:04:56,880 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: like I'm just punching the air, and if you happen 89 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 1: to walk into the air that I'm punching, you know, 90 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 1: so be it. I think the implication is that if 91 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: he says outright that he is biting his thumb at 92 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: the other guy, then if a fight breaks out, it'll 93 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: be considered his fault because he provoked it. So he's 94 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: just saying, no, I'm just biting my thumb. In general, 95 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: all right, makes sense, makes sense. It's kind of like 96 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: if here is, if there's a difference between flashing the 97 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: middle finger and making a middle finger and scratching your face, 98 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: you have plausible deniability and saying I know, I wasn't 99 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: floping you off, I was. I just the side of 100 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 1: my face itches and I needed to relieve it. And see, 101 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: my middle finger is my longest finger, and therefore it 102 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: is the ideal finger to use for scratching. Said notes. Right, Oh, 103 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: oh it's itching again. Oh here I go again. Oh 104 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: now both sides are itching. Yeah. So yeah, that is 105 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: clearly what's going on in the scene. But it is 106 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: interesting to ponder, like, what is what is the origin 107 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: of this thumb biting thing, because of course this was 108 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 1: localized to specific cultures, but it's clear what it means 109 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: in context. It seems to bite one's thumb at someone 110 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: was a gesture of disrespect or contempt. It was kind 111 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: of like giving the finger. It was a way of 112 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: saying you stink. And in trying to find something about 113 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: the origins of this gesture, I found an excerpt from 114 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: a book called How to Behave Badly in Elizabethan, England 115 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: by a British historian named Ruth Goodman, and she writes 116 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: as follows quote in modern sicily, you can still see 117 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: a form of this gesture and use an upright thumb 118 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: held so that the pad points outwards. Is tucked behind 119 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: the top front teeth and then flicked forwards out of 120 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: the mouth towards the intended insultee. Okay, so are you 121 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: picturing that It's not the thumb going straight into the 122 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: mouth as you might think with like when a child 123 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: is sucking their thumb. Instead, it's like the thumb kind 124 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: of goes upward into the mouth behind the top teeth, 125 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: and then you kind of flick the thumb out pad out. Yeah. 126 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 1: But then DMan also writes, I've also seen a version 127 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: in action on the outskirts of Venice, although I don't 128 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: know if it was a native Venetian performing it, where 129 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: the pad of the thumb was placed horizontally between the 130 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: top and bottom teeth in a bite, and then flicked out, 131 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: rotating as it went so that the bitten pad was 132 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: thrust forwards. And so because of the Finn McCool biting 133 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: the thumbthing, I started to wonder if there were any 134 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: interesting connections between this gesture we see in Shakespeare that 135 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: appears to have mostly gone out of style today, though 136 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: maybe you might still see it in isolated cases here 137 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: or there, such as in Sicily or somewhere in Italy. 138 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: But I'm going to have to say that for me, 139 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: this investigation was a failure. I couldn't find any evidence 140 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: of a connection between these two story elements, though it 141 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: did raise interesting questions on its own, like where would 142 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: this type of thumb biting gesture come from? And from 143 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: what I turned up. Like many obscene gestures, its origins 144 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: are unknown. But I did find a book that had 145 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: some interesting informed guesses, and this was in an academic 146 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: book called Historical Social Psychology by Kenneth Gurgen and Mary Gurgan, 147 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: published by Taylor and Francis, twenty fourteen. And so, first 148 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: of all, they dispense with a few alternatives. They say, well, 149 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: you know, maybe the thumb biting insult gesture has something 150 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: to do with thumb sucking, but that doesn't really fit 151 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: what's described in the Shakespearean usage. And they say the 152 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: same goes for the act of biting the knuckle of 153 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: your thumb, which is a gesture that sometimes people still 154 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: use today, but it seems demean something different. Biting the 155 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: knuckle of your thumb seems to denote someone desperately trying 156 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: to contain rage, and that also it also just doesn't 157 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: fit what's described in these sources. So instead, they argue 158 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: that the thumb biting described by Shakespeare is something that 159 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: has generally fallen out of fashion today, it's mostly not 160 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: used anymore, and that in order to understand it we 161 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: would need to look to the historical context. So what's 162 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: the context? Well, I thought their answer was pretty interesting. 163 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: They write, quote. The clue, it seems, is to be 164 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 1: found in the fact that during the latter half of 165 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: the sixteenth century, men were in the habit of wearing gloves, 166 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: and these were usually removed prior to any confrontation, not 167 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 1: unlike the present day Irish habit of taking off one's 168 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: jacket to show that one means business. In fact, the 169 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: practice of removing and throwing down one's glove had become 170 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: ritualized as a challenge long before Shakespeare's time, and it 171 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: is common knowledge that medieval knights use this device to 172 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: invite each other into the lists. It seems likely that 173 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: the medieval convention, or some version of it, was still 174 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: around in a stylized form during Shakespeare's time, but it 175 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: had become abbreviated to the point where an intention movement 176 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: of removing one's gloves would suffice. So how does an 177 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: early modern hater remove a glove, well, one way would 178 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: be to remove it with the opposite hand, but another 179 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: way would be to bite at one of the fingers 180 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: of the glove with your teeth and then pull the 181 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: hand away from inside. You've probably seen people take gloves 182 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: off this way. The latter method they claim is well attested, 183 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: and it was not unusual to remove a glove this 184 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: way by by biting the thumb and pulling the hand out. 185 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: Though when I was trying to imagine doing this myself, 186 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: to just sort of give it a quick thought experiment check, 187 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: I think you probably can do it, though it seems 188 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: to me be easier to get to get your hand 189 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: out of the glove by biting one of the long 190 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: fingers than by biting the thumb. But I'm no glove expert. 191 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: Well this makes sense, Yeah, the gloves are off. This 192 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: is the classic challenge, and I had to We had 193 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 1: to check this with Seth whose Simpsons knowledge knows no bounds. 194 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: But on the Simpsons we had the episode where we 195 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: had the glove slap, where our Homer is challenging everyone 196 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: to a duel in town by slapping them with his glove, 197 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: which he has removed right so in this case, the 198 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: authors suggest their hypothesis is that over time, this familiar, 199 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 1: highly salient activity of taking off a glove to demand 200 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: a duel could be abbreviated to a simple gesture of 201 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: just biting your thumb to show scorn or disrespect, whether 202 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: or not you're actually wearing a glove. They do say 203 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: they could find no direct evidence supporting this hypothesis, though 204 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: it does fit well with the observation that the gesture 205 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: mostly fell into disuse when dueling disappeared as a legitimate 206 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: way of settling beef. So anyway, I think interesting question 207 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: on its own, but I couldn't really find that this 208 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: much informs Finn McCool right, right. I think that's one 209 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: of the things that makes the thumb of knowledge here 210 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: so fascinating, is that it does, to a certain extent, 211 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: feel like kind of an island in mythology, Like it's 212 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: something that it's not like there's something universal about heroes 213 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 1: biting or sucking their thumb or placing their thumb in 214 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: their mouth. But but we'll get into some of the 215 00:11:51,640 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: connections that are in place in a bit here. The 216 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: next question is, of course, well, why what's the story 217 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 1: There's got to be a story. There's always a story 218 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 1: behind why something is the way it is in mythology, 219 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: and the main origin story for the miraculous thumb of 220 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: Finn McCool is the salmon of knowledge. Salmon is in 221 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: the fish, the delicious fish, where we're familiar with, and 222 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: McKillop points out that, Okay, in addition to this, the 223 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: salmon has plenty of mystical connotations, in part due to 224 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: it's observed leaping out of the water. So it wasn't 225 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: a stretch to think there might be something magical about 226 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: a salmon. It's not like an inherently secular animal or 227 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 1: mundane animal. It is one that already has all these 228 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 1: various mystical connotations, and so it makes sense that it 229 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: might play into such a story. Rob Can I reveal though, 230 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: when I was trying to see, okay, are there other 231 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: magical salmon out there? So I google the phrase magical 232 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: salmon and the first result is, of course, Chef Paul 233 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: Prudom's salmon Magic seasoning blend. There you go. I'm sure 234 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: it was a magical recipe that that he earned by 235 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: catching a magical fish, because that's that's that's basically what 236 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: we have going on here. So the stories goes that 237 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: you have a druid by the name of Phinegus who 238 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 1: lives on the banks of a river, and he has 239 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: long waited for and intends to catch the salmon of Knowledge. 240 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: There are other versions of the story that say that 241 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: he's he's camping out at a waterfall, or that there's 242 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: some sort of a you know, some sort of an 243 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 1: underground reservoir sort of situation going on. But the idea 244 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: is that at some point this uh, this marvelous salmon 245 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,719 Speaker 1: is going to present itself, and if the druid can 246 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: catch it, he can eat it and he can gain 247 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: all of that wonderful wisdom for himself. Now, is it 248 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: ever explained how he knows that the salmon, the salmon 249 00:13:57,559 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: of knowledge, will give him all this wisdom? Or is 250 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: that just he is just something he knows? Well, there 251 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: are a few different There's at least one really good 252 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: uh story behind this, and this is account. This is 253 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: an account mentioned by Patricia Monigan in Celtic Mythology and Folklore. 254 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 1: According to this author, the fish is sometimes identified is 255 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: Finton a bard who lived many lifetimes in many incarnations. 256 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: Thus he has all of this accumulated knowledge, and in 257 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: this incarnation he just happens to be a salmon. And 258 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: so I guess, you know, through the druidic arts, this 259 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: particular druid knows, hey, I can catch him this time, 260 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: and if I eat him, and I'll gain all of 261 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: that knowledge. So it's it's literally that I'm going to 262 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: eat your brains and gain your knowledge logic, right, well, 263 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: you know, but not maybe not. The brains may just 264 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 1: all that delicious. Uh maybe, I don't know. I don't 265 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you have to eat like absolutely 266 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: all of the fish, or you have to eat the brain, 267 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: but you're already cooking a salmon, so you might as 268 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: well make a meal out of it. I don't know. Well, 269 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: I actually I guess, as Wills, we're about to learn 270 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: it's not just the brains, and in fact that it 271 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: may be a little more subtle than that, because what 272 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: apparently happens is the druid finally succeeds in catching it 273 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: after waiting for it for seven years, which incidentally, it's 274 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: been seven years since Finn McCool was born, and seven 275 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: year old Finn McCool is hanging out there at the 276 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: druid camp with him, and you know he's shadowing him, 277 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: you know, as you do. And so Finnegus he's caught 278 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: the salmon. He's overjoyed. So he starts cooking the salmon, 279 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: puts it on a spit. It's roasting there, and Finn's 280 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: trying to help out, and he accidentally burns his thumb 281 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: on the cooking fish. And what does he do? What 282 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: do you do in your thumb is burnt, while you 283 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: immediately seek to soothe that pain by thrusting your thumb 284 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: into your mouth. And Finn does just this, and when 285 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: he does, he inherits the power of the salmon before 286 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: the old druid even gets a shot at it. So 287 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: it's the oil from the salmon that contains the knowledge. 288 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: It's not eat your brains and gain your knowledge. It's 289 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: eat your omega threes and gain your knowledge right right now. 290 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: In some variations, however, he gains he said to gain 291 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: the power of divination by eating magical hazel nuts, or 292 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: he gains it from the salmon because the salmon ate 293 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: magical hazel nuts. There's also one version in which he 294 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: enters a fairy mound. Fairy mounds are these circular ancient dwellings, uh, 295 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: you know, from from ancient Ireland that were later associated 296 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: with supernatural tales, and you know, stuff like the two 297 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: author to done and so anyway, he enters a fairy ground, 298 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: he gains the magical ability from three fairy women he 299 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: encounters there, but then as he's leaving, he accidentally smashes 300 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: his thumb in the door of the fairy mound. But 301 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: it seems like the fish version of the story, the 302 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: Salmon of Knowledge is the primary tale. It's the most 303 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: popular now. It's it's often stated that it's not just 304 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: putting the thumb in his mouth that sets off the 305 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: divination trance, but that Finn also has to recite a 306 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: kind of poetic chanting incantation called the I think probably 307 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: pronouncing this wrong, but the teinem latia lata. And this 308 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 1: also may have some connection to hazel nuts, according to 309 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: mccellop in the Dictionary of Celtic Mythology. McKellop adds that 310 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: the thumb allowed him to enter quote and I love 311 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: this an altered visionary state in which he could see past, 312 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: present and future in which he could see present. Wow, 313 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: I mean that that is a real well maybe maybe 314 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: it means he could see all of the present, like 315 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 1: things that are not present with him at the present, 316 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: or to see the present clearly. I don't know. There's 317 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 1: another interesting wrinkle here. The Celtic languages and literature professional 318 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: Patrick k Ford suggests that one connection here may be 319 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: that the Old Irish word for thumb was ordu, which 320 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: may also signify a morsel, particularly a morsel of meat, 321 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: that you would you consume. And McKellop points out that 322 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: that the consumption of a morsel of magical flesh is 323 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: a common folkloric motif. So if I'm to understand this correctly, 324 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: the interpretation would mean that Finns morsel slash thumb becomes 325 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: the sacred flesh by coming into burning contact with the 326 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: cooking sacred fish of the Salmon of wisdom. But is 327 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 1: it also suggesting that there may possibly have been the 328 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: kind of semantic contagion in the evolution of this story, 329 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: where originally the story was about eating a magical morsel 330 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: of meat, but because you can use the same word 331 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: for morsel of meat and thumb, that it came to 332 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 1: represent a thumb in later tellings. Yeah, that's absolutely the 333 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: sense I'm getting from this. Yeah, So we have, you know, 334 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: a semantics and linguistic shift going on here in addition 335 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: to just a you know, a cool story of magic 336 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: fish consumption. Oh this is great because I'm imagining other 337 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: variations of that kind of evolution of a story. Like 338 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: the thumb slash morsel makes sense because like a little 339 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: morsel of meat that might be about the size of 340 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: your thumb. But there are other ways that we use 341 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: body parts to measure quantities in reality. Like I'm thinking 342 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: of people who would say, hey, I want two fingers 343 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: of whiskey in the glass. So you could have a 344 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 1: story about somebody who drinks a magical draft of something. 345 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: They get two fingers of it, but then in later 346 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,959 Speaker 1: tellings it gets confused and it's like, well, yeah, they 347 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: drank their own fingers and then they gained this power. Yeah, 348 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: you could have like a sort of a Popeye Asque 349 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 1: character if he has if he's sticks two fingers in 350 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: his mouth, then he gets all riled up and is 351 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: ready to fight, puts him into a drunken brawling spade. 352 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: So as we'll discuss. The thumb pops up in a 353 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: few other places, but it's largely thought to be quite 354 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: emblematic of Finn McCool his only real defining feature in iconography. 355 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: I think sometimes they're our hounds or dogs that are 356 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: associated with Finn McCool. But but the thumb especially is 357 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 1: something where you know, historians and art historians are looking 358 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: at various images. If they see the thumb being, you know, 359 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 1: poked towards the mouth, they can they can generally say 360 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: with some certainty that this must be Finn McCool. And 361 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: I haven't found an example of this online or in 362 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: the books I was looking at, but apparently many Celtic 363 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: crosses have various figures in the design, and sometimes you'll 364 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: see this thumb brandishing Finn McCool. Characters pop up, or 365 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: it's assumed that it's Finn McCool because who else would 366 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: it be. So if you've if you've never, if you 367 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: can't imagine what a Celtic cross tense will look like, 368 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 1: they tend to be be a cruciform shape. But then 369 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 1: with all these kind of compartments for further illustrations and symbols, Now, 370 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: how is it the thumb is usually emphasized in the psychonography. 371 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: Is it like glowing or something? Or is he sucking it? 372 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: Is it in his mouth. Um. Well, like I said, 373 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: I couldn't find a direct example of this that stood 374 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: out to me, but I I just they're they're they're 375 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,199 Speaker 1: going to be smaller figures and they're I don't think 376 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: they're gonna's going to be necessarily obvious that like the 377 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 1: thumb is glowing or anything, but just by by virtue 378 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: of having some sort of emphasis on the thumb and 379 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: a visible thumb or even a thumb in the mouth, 380 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: it's going to be pretty obvious that it's Finn McCool. 381 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 1: Now this is not related to the thumb, but just 382 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: as a quick side note on you mentioned that some 383 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: stories of Finn McCool emphasizes dogs. I was reading a 384 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 1: few of those. There are actually some really great dog 385 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: buddy uh legends of of Finn, and one of them 386 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: is about how he how he gains a wife who 387 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 1: is a person who I think she's like a fairy, 388 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: but in any case, she's transformed into a fawn by 389 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: an evil wizard and uh, and he finds her by 390 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: by virtue of the fact that he's out with his 391 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: hunting dogs and when he comes across this fawn, his 392 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 1: dogs don't go after the fawn and like attack it, 393 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: but instead settle down and cuddle with it. And so 394 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: then he brings the fawn back with him to his castle. 395 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 1: And once they arrive there, the fawn turns into this 396 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,199 Speaker 1: woman who becomes his wife. But then unfortunately she is 397 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: she is tricked and stolen away by the evil wizard. 398 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: Again interesting. Interesting. Now, in terms of other accounts of 399 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: thumbs in Celtic mythology, I did run across another interesting example, 400 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: and this was this is from the ninety two or 401 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: ninety three Nordic Celtic Legends Imposium, an article by Rannock 402 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: Ogan titled music Learn from the Fairies, And according to 403 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: the author here there are many tales of mortals learning 404 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 1: the music of fairy folk music from beyond our world, 405 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: and usually they learn it by hearing it in just 406 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: the right place at just the right time, you know, 407 00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: something like an ancient ruin strange rocks in the world woods, 408 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: you know, the sort of place that fairies might appear 409 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: or hang out, and such was also around the time 410 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 1: of Solin, like this is the time of the year 411 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 1: when the veil is thin between our world and the next. 412 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 1: And there's at least one account in in Celtic tradition 413 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: of a man hearing fairy music. He's you know, he 414 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: hears it in the woods or wherever, and what does 415 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: he do. He sticks his thumb in his mouth whilst 416 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: hearing the music, and as a result he remembered the music. 417 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: And of course this this caused to mind Finn McCool interesting. 418 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 1: I mean, what does that suggest about our intuitions about 419 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: the power of sucking a thumb that it like, I 420 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: don't know what that means, That it has some kind 421 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:48,239 Speaker 1: of grounding power that it can like cause you to uh, 422 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: sort of like hold fast against maybe currents of magic 423 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: or forgetfulness that would otherwise wash away the memory. Well, yeah, 424 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: this is a great question because I guess on one hand, 425 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: let's let's start by let's go ahead and assume that 426 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: that sticking your thumb in your mouth actually doesn't have 427 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: any effect on you know, your your your memory, or 428 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,400 Speaker 1: your your your your stress level or anything like that. 429 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 1: It does make you wonder if there is, if there's 430 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: something culturally in place where where just the idea of 431 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: sticking your thumb in your mouth is like a novel 432 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: thing that is done that is associated with insight. Um 433 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: I wonder if it is the kind of thing where 434 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: you could stick your thumb in your mouth thinking about 435 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: this tradition and it would actually help you remember something better, 436 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: because it's also like that thing I heard while I 437 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: was sticking my thumb in my mouth. Oh that's interesting. 438 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: In fact, that even connects to a mnemonic device I've 439 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 1: I've heard of before, which is basically like, if if 440 00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: suddenly something happens and you want to remember it very well, 441 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: you should do something really weird immediately so that you 442 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: like form a link in your mind between that weird 443 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: memory bol thing you did, and whatever thing it is 444 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: you're trying to remember. Interesting now, of course, the thing 445 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: is when it comes with thumb sucking, it doesn't seem 446 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 1: to be just a completely neutral gesture, if you will. 447 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: And we actually have quite a lot of research out 448 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 1: there on thumb sucking, particularly as it relates to children. Right, 449 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 1: So I was actually reading a brief article in a 450 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: pediatric medicine journal reviewing the existing literature on thumbs sucking 451 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: as of two thousand and eight. So this article was 452 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: called Thumb and Finger Sucking by Lynn Davidson in the 453 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: journal Pediatrics in Review. Again, this was the year two 454 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, and a few major takeaways from this 455 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: brief ride up. Number one is that different studies across 456 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: time have found some different rates of the prevalence of 457 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 1: thumb sucking or finger sucking. A lot of times these 458 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: studies just lump thumb and finger sucking in together, so 459 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: you're not necessarily getting a breakdown by which finger it is. 460 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: But I think it is clear that thumbs are the 461 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,280 Speaker 1: most most common finger for infants to suck. But older 462 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: studies found rates in the range of seventy to ninety 463 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: percent of children showing a thumb or finger sucking behaviors, 464 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: and more recent studies have found rates more like thirty 465 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: percent by the end of the first year after birth, 466 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: along with forty percent using a pacifier. Though with that 467 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: thirty to forty percent, I don't know if that's an 468 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: either or situation or an and situation to some children 469 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 1: suck thumb and a pacifier, I'm not sure. I don't 470 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: I don't have a lot of direct experience with that, 471 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: but I mean, I guess in some cases you're going 472 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: to have a situation where the child is gravitating towards 473 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: sucking on on digits and you want to get a 474 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: pacifier in there instead, and you're like, here, here, you 475 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: use this instead. Anyway. There's some variations on these rates 476 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: with the within the first few years of life, but 477 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: Davidson writes that by the time most children reach the 478 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 1: age of four, these rates have gone way down. On average, 479 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: only twelve percent of children in one study sucked a finger, 480 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: including a thumb, by the age of four, and pacifier 481 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 1: use had gone down to four percent by that time. 482 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 1: Now here's something I thought was interesting. Apparently, during the 483 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,959 Speaker 1: first few months of life, infants are most likely to 484 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 1: suck their thumbs during sleep, but by the end of 485 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: the first year more infants do it while awake. There 486 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: were no differences in rates of thumb sucking prevalence by sex. 487 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: And oh, and I thought this was interesting. Up to 488 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: fifty percent of children who suck their thumbs or fingers 489 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,400 Speaker 1: also tend to hold a special object while doing so. 490 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: This is, yeah, sort of the classic I suck my 491 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,719 Speaker 1: thumb or my fingers and I have to hold on 492 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: to a special blanket or a special stuffy that sort 493 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: of thing. Yeah. Now, there have been a number of 494 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: historical explanations for thumb sucking. One that must be cited 495 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: unfortunately as Freud. Freud being Freud believed it to be 496 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 1: an expression of what he called quote infantile sexuality, and 497 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: that when it persisted beyond infancy, it was a symptom 498 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 1: of emotional disturbance. Obviously, Freudianism held a lot of sway 499 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: for a while, despite it being profoundly weird and not 500 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,479 Speaker 1: actually being subject to empirical testing. But there are some 501 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,360 Speaker 1: more recent theories that seem better grounded and experimental research, 502 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 1: and they generally suggest that thumbsucking grows out of instinctual 503 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,959 Speaker 1: behaviors in infants, that sucking behaviors are a universal instinctual 504 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: behavior in newborns that they use for breastfeeding or bottle feeding, 505 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: and that after that, for some reason, in some children, 506 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: this instinctual behavior continues beyond the point of nutritional relevance, 507 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: and the instinctual behavior might be reinforced through conditioning, and 508 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: in some cases it just continues with a substitute, such 509 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: as a thumb or a finger. I don't know if 510 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: there is a good agreed upon answer as to why 511 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: this reinforced behavior would be continued in some children but 512 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: not others, Like what makes the difference? I'm not sure. However, 513 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: it might be informative to note that some studies have 514 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: found that thumb sucking appears to be especially common when 515 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: children are bored, tired, or anxious, and this suggests that 516 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: it plays some kind of self soothing role. Yeah, and 517 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: I was finding some evidence to back this up as well. 518 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: There's a twenty fifteen article published in Minerva Pediatrica that 519 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: concluded that quote, a thumbsucking subject puts the thumb in 520 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: the mouth to stimulate the nasal pilatal receptors of trigeminists 521 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: and obtain muscular balance and a release of physical and 522 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: psychological tension. Now that's also interesting when you think about 523 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: the Okay, we have Finn McCool doing this as an adult. 524 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: You can certainly find adult thumbsuckers who speak to the 525 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: calming effects of the practice. So I wonder if it 526 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: is too much of a stretch to imagine an Irish 527 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: warrior of old who you know, you know, he's his 528 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: wonderful hunter and warrior in all this, but he needs 529 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: to calm down every now and then, and this stressful 530 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: role in society, And if you're going to ponder an 531 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 1: important decision, you need to reach a place of relative peace, 532 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: and perhaps placing his thumb inside of his mouth allows 533 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: him to do so, and maybe you end up seeing 534 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: the creation of magical explanations for what's going on here, 535 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: as opposed to just saying, well, he never quite stopped 536 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: sucking his thumb when he's nervous or stressed. Oh man, 537 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: that would be an amazing origin story. Yes, so it 538 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: begins with this beast of a warrior, great hunter, you know, 539 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 1: blow the hunting horn. I will defend the shores of Ireland. 540 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: But I also suck my thumb and people are like, 541 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: why is he sucking his thumb? And somebody else is like, well, 542 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: it's what he does when he needs to, you know, 543 00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: see into the future. Yeah, now another possible connection. I 544 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: was thinking about a related connection. Anyway, Sometimes there's more 545 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: stress placed on the idea that Finn is placing his 546 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: thumb behind his upper teeth, and of course thumb sucking 547 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 1: itself impacts the palette. I was reminded of traditions in 548 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: meditation that you encounter in which one is asked to 549 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: hold the tip of one's tongue to the roof of 550 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 1: the mouth. Sometimes this is described in terms of you know, 551 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: of course, bodily energy flow, other times as just being 552 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 1: a way of altering the flow of saliva in the mouth, 553 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: though it is sometimes described as a way of eliminating 554 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: negative thoughts or even a way of sort of weeding 555 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: out speech based thoughts. Well, and I'd wonder if you 556 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 1: know any kind of meditative practice that involves unusual activities 557 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:55,239 Speaker 1: with the body is essentially just trying to trying to 558 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: direct your concentration away from the sort of default mode 559 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: flow of thoughts that arise normally. If if you're thinking 560 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: about doing a sort of strange repetitive action with your body, 561 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: you're probably less inclined to start thinking about, oh, man, 562 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: next Thursday. I really yeah, yeah exactly. So I feel 563 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: like that is I couldn't find any like real research 564 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,959 Speaker 1: on this, and perhaps I'm missing something, but this seems 565 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: plausible to me, like if there was some sort of 566 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: like ritual we see in meditation. This is a ritual 567 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: touching of something to the roof of your mouth that 568 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: is then associated with some degree of anxiety relief and 569 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: some degree of relaxation. We see some evidence to support 570 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: the idea that that thumb sucking itself can reduce anxiety, 571 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: and then We have this idea too that just sort 572 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: of novel behaviors and rituals of relaxation, rituals of grounding 573 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: can can very much be be helpful. I'm not advising 574 00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:00,040 Speaker 1: anybody to take up sucking of the thumb as a 575 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: as a way to try and uh, you know, find 576 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: balance or to see into the future, but I feel 577 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: like there's some there's some interesting leads here to potentially 578 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: pull on to sort of try and make sense of 579 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: of where this may come from, and uh and and 580 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: how such a either at the very least such a 581 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: myth comes together, but but also the possibility that this 582 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: is something that had could have been practiced to some 583 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: limited degree in uh, you know, in Ireland of Old. Yeah. 584 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: Also another note, Yes, so we were not encouraging thumb 585 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: sucking for adults, especially because that can cause dental problems 586 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: if if you're doing chronic thumb sucking after the baby 587 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: teeth have been replaced. Yeah, that's the that's of course, 588 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: the the prime reason that that adults discourage the act 589 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: and want to to wean kids away from the sucking 590 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: of fingers and thumbs, because yeah, once the baby teeth 591 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: are going, you've got the adult teeth going in. You 592 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: can you can jack up those adult teeth by continually 593 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: pressing the thumb up there into the palette. It's seems 594 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: like the methods used to discourage thumbsucking and train children 595 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: not to do it have become more humane over time, 596 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: because I was reading about some of the older methods 597 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: people used to try to, you know, get their kid 598 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: to get the thumb out of the mouth, and it 599 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,240 Speaker 1: was brutal, like one was about these ideas of having 600 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: the sharp implements put on the backs of the teeth 601 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: that would like cause pain in the thumb. Have you 602 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: read about this, Yeah, yeah, I think I've heard about 603 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: that before. Yeah, obviously that does not sound good. Or 604 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: of course putting putting noxious chemicals or something on the thumb. Yeah, 605 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 1: I think I think people have better methods now. Yeah. Now, 606 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: one of the interesting thing we talked about, this idea 607 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: of the thumbsucking being, you know, the thumb in the 608 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 1: mouth being kind of an island for this mythology of 609 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 1: Finn McCool and certainly again it is a defining one 610 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: of the defining factors of this particular hero. But you 611 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: do see thumb sucking, thumb in the mouth motifs popping 612 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: up with some other heroes, particularly. A few examples that 613 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: have come to mind include um Sigurd, the hero there. 614 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: Actually I saw an image of him that it's like 615 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: a carving, and you see him with thumb in the mouth, 616 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: So that seems to be very much related to what 617 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: we're looking at here. Another hero that we see lined 618 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: up with the thumb is Taliesin, So there seems to 619 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: be some connection between Finn McCool and these heroes as well. Yeah, 620 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: McKillop notes in his book that there was a controversial 621 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:36,879 Speaker 1: suggestion by Robert Graves that Heracles or Hercules, the Greek hero, 622 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: was associated with the thumb in the same way that 623 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: Achilles is associated with the heel, kind of these body 624 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,240 Speaker 1: parts that are emblematic of the person. But McKillop brings 625 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: that association up specifically in the context of it being 626 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: kind of kind of doubtful. Now, outside of these these 627 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: three heroes, I wasn't really really finding much that that 628 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: even resembled Finn McCool. But there is an interesting thumb 629 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: sucking bit of myth making that pops up in Hindu traditions. 630 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 1: In the Hindu Epic, the Mahabarata. There's the story of 631 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: King yuvan Ashva, who apparently has trouble conceiving a child 632 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: with any of his concubines, and so he winds up 633 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: drinking a magic potion that makes him pregnant. So when 634 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 1: this occurs, his he realizes, well, there's some additional problems 635 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 1: now that I have to deal with. So he turns 636 00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: to the divine physicians and they cut open his thigh 637 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: so that he can actually give birth to the baby. 638 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,240 Speaker 1: But then how is he to nourish the child? Well, 639 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,959 Speaker 1: then we have Indra, the King of Davis, to cut 640 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: open his thumb and this allows milk to leak forth 641 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: from the thumb so that he can nurse his infant 642 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: son in this manner. And this is why the story 643 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: goes that babies sometimes suck their thumbs. Wow. Interesting, Yeah, 644 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 1: no direct connection between this and Finn McCool, but just 645 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: another kind of cool thumbsucking mythology to reference here. The 646 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: more I think about the idea of a of a 647 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: thumbsucking warrior action hero, the more I love it, Like 648 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 1: I want to see a movie like this. Or it 649 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,359 Speaker 1: doesn't have to be thumbsucking, it could also be um, 650 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: you know, your your great warrior, great swinger of the sword, 651 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: like has a blankie. Yeah yeah, I mean we had 652 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: let's see, who's the tell us of all his character? 653 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: That does it? Kolchak uh Kojack that that had the 654 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,319 Speaker 1: sucker like that was his whole thing, right, Oh, lollipops 655 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: the lollipop. Yeah, uh, that's not too far removed from it. 656 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 1: I cannot do detective until I get my lolly. Yes, well, Rob, 657 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: I have greatly enjoyed this journey into Finn McCool. Yeah, 658 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: this one has been a lot of fun. Like I say, 659 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: I wasn't super familiar with Finn McCool prior to this, 660 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: and I certainly had had somehow skipped over or forgotten 661 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 1: anything about the Thumb of Knowledge. So this was this 662 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,640 Speaker 1: was a fun journey into Irish mythology. Always fun to 663 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 1: do that around this time of year. You know. On 664 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: previous episodes of the show, we have talked about our 665 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:11,319 Speaker 1: love for the time Life Enchanted World books that were 666 00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,080 Speaker 1: fabulously advertised on TV commercials with Vincent Price where you 667 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,399 Speaker 1: know he's I love to carl up with a good book. 668 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 1: Did his eyes glow green in those commercials? I think so? 669 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: They may have, well, a couple of the volumes of 670 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: the Time Life Enchanted World have stories of Finn McCool, 671 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: and they're you know what I got to say, By 672 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 1: and large, those books are really good. They're good syntheses 673 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: of their sources and pretty well written, much better than 674 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: you would expect for something that was advertised on TV 675 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: that way. Oh absolutely, yeah. I'm actually reading through the 676 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,120 Speaker 1: Dragon volume from that collection right now with my son, 677 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 1: and there's some sections of it that I feel like 678 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,880 Speaker 1: we're a little a little wordier than they need to be, 679 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 1: but we're having a lot of fun with it. You 680 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 1: have the longer sections, the short order sections, you have 681 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:05,920 Speaker 1: this wonderful mix of original artwork as well as traditional 682 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:11,239 Speaker 1: artwork to illustrate these tales. So yeah, there there are 683 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:12,919 Speaker 1: a lot of fun do you do? You have them all? Joe? 684 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 1: It was a wonderful gift from my wife, Rachel got 685 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: me the complete Time Life Enchanted World collection. Oh nice. 686 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: It's something like twenty something volumes all told. Right, Uh, 687 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 1: that might be about right. I haven't read them all yet. 688 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: So the stories about Finn McCool are in the ones 689 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: called Acts of Valor or maybe Tales of Valor. This 690 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:33,719 Speaker 1: the one with Valor and the title, and then the 691 00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:37,439 Speaker 1: one called Fabled Lands. Yeah, okay, I have one of those, 692 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: but not the other. For the longest I just I 693 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: kind of assumed that I had the full collection that 694 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: had been gifted to me from an aunt when I 695 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,319 Speaker 1: was a child. But I've come to realize, oh, I 696 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: don't have them all. So, like, just the other day, 697 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: as we were recording this, I was looking at oh, 698 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,000 Speaker 1: which I was looking at, like, Okay, which ones do 699 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: I not have that I really should have? And I 700 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: noticed that I had two of the Black books, not 701 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: the third. So I immediately had to order that one up. 702 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: One of the great things about these books is that 703 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: I guess they were just so mass produced. You can 704 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,279 Speaker 1: pick these volumes up for you know, for reasonable sums. Uh. 705 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: You know, sometimes you'll find one's even like dirt cheap. Uh. 706 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: So there there are plenty. There's plenty of Enchanted World 707 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: to go around if anyone's interested. I'm incredibly proud of 708 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,919 Speaker 1: my Enchanted World collection. It's a it's a treasure all right, 709 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: where we're going to go ahead and close it out here. 710 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: And and I guess I wish everybody to Saint Patrick's 711 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 1: day while we're at it. But we'd love to hear 712 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:34,839 Speaker 1: from everyone out there. We'd love to hear from uh 713 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 1: Irish folk and non Irish folk alike regarding these uh, 714 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,360 Speaker 1: these myths, these these tales, uh you know, thumbs in 715 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 1: the mouth, thumbsucking in general, or even just an enchanted 716 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,360 Speaker 1: world book chat. What's your favorite volume? Did you have 717 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 1: these growing up or did you just want them? Have 718 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 1: you have you rectified this in your adult life, etc. 719 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: Just let us know we'd love to hear from you. 720 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: In the meantime, you can find core episodes of Stuff 721 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:04,880 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the 722 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed On Mondays, we 723 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: do listener mail. On Wednesdays we do an artifact or 724 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,080 Speaker 1: a monster fact. The one we did this week is 725 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,399 Speaker 1: also Irish themed. And then on Fridays we set most 726 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 1: serious matters aside and we just talk about a strange film. 727 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,239 Speaker 1: Huge thanks, as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 728 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,719 Speaker 1: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 729 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 1: with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 730 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: to suggest topic for the future, or just to say hello, 731 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,439 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at Stuff to Blow 732 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 1: Your Mind dot com Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 733 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,760 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, 734 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening 735 00:41:51,160 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.