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Speaker 1: Ruby.

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Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Leah Palmery.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Matt still a Welcome to grown up stuff.

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Speaker 2: We are so glad you're here, even though you're probably

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Speaker 2: listening to this on your phone.

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Speaker 3: Yeah that's right. But today we're going to help you

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Speaker 3: learn how to spend a whole lot less time on

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Speaker 3: your phone except for listening to the show of course.

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Speaker 2: Oh the show is always the exception. But you and

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Speaker 2: I have spoken a lot about doing less social media, Matt,

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Speaker 2: and that's what we're tackling today with our guest Catherine Price,

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Speaker 2: who literally wrote the book How to Break Up with

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Speaker 2: Your Phone. She's going to walk us through some practical

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Speaker 2: steps to making it much harder to check our socials

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Speaker 2: and therefore live in the real world.

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Speaker 3: That's where we should all be living. There's no world

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Speaker 3: like the real world.

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Speaker 2: Well, there is the world that's just in my hand

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Speaker 2: at all times, and it sucks me in every day.

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Speaker 3: That's true. Sometimes it does feel like more of a

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Speaker 3: real world in there.

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Speaker 2: But Matt, what is your main social media? Are you

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Speaker 2: a TikTok addict, a threads fiend? What app has your

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Speaker 2: attention most?

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Speaker 3: I refuse to download TikTok because I know that once

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Speaker 3: I do, it's over for me, like I won't have

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Speaker 3: a life anymore. My sister shows me videos all the

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Speaker 3: time and I'm like, this looks fantastic, and i just

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Speaker 3: can't do it because I'm on Reddit too much. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: the main thing for me is Reddit.

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Speaker 1: What about you.

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Speaker 2: I'm an instag girly for sure, but I avoided TikTok

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Speaker 2: for a while and then when it got me, it

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Speaker 2: got me, and I'm like so much that people need

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Speaker 2: to see this. I will screen record and send it

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Speaker 2: to the people who don't have TikTok, even though I

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Speaker 2: also judge them harshly because just get over here already.

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Speaker 2: But I also understand the addiction.

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Speaker 3: If you could be my TikTok curator, that would be fantastic, Like,

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Speaker 3: just send me the best.

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Speaker 2: Of the best, No curator, It's just all there and

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Speaker 2: you just gotta be there, so get on board.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 3: Well, well, Instagram, I'm sure misses you very much. Here

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Speaker 3: is Catherine with some more handy tips on how to

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Speaker 3: keep your hands off your phones.

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Speaker 1: Well stuff.

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Speaker 4: I'm Catherine Price. I'm a health and science journalist and

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Speaker 4: I've written a number of books about how to have

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Speaker 4: healthier relationships with technology, and how to feel more alive,

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Speaker 4: including most relevantly, how to break up with your phone,

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Speaker 4: and another one called The Power of Fun. And I'm

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Speaker 4: working on an upcoming book for kids that's called The

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Speaker 4: Amazing Generation with Jonathan Height from The Anxious Generation, and

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Speaker 4: that is our attempt to help the next generation of

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Speaker 4: kids have lives full of friendship and freedom and fun

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Speaker 4: that are not hijacked by screens.

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Speaker 3: Your lips to God's ears, we.

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Speaker 2: Need it so bad. But take us back a little bit. First,

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Speaker 2: walk us through the moment that you realized we're not

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Speaker 2: just using our phones too much, we are actually being

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Speaker 2: manipulated by them. They are controlling us more than we

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Speaker 2: even realize.

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Speaker 4: Right, I mean, the idea that we're not just using

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Speaker 4: our phones, our phones are using us, I think is

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Speaker 4: really so important. And I think that for me it

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Speaker 4: was definitely a process, as it is for many people.

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Speaker 4: But there was one moment that really stands out in

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Speaker 4: my mind, which was that about ten years ago, my

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Speaker 4: daughter had just been born and I was up late

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Speaker 4: at night with her and I had this moment probably

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Speaker 4: was because of sleep deprivation, where I really could see

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Speaker 4: the scene as if I was on the outside looking in,

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Speaker 4: and there was this person holding a baby. The baby's

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Speaker 4: looking up at her mother, and then her mother's looking

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Speaker 4: down at her phone. And it really upset me because

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Speaker 4: I realized that was not what I wanted my daughter

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Speaker 4: to think about, a human relationship, littleone with her mom.

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Speaker 4: And also that wasn't how I wanted to be living

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Speaker 4: my own life. And so I remember having conversations with

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Speaker 4: my husband soon thereafter about smartphones and this was in

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Speaker 4: twenty sixteen, so quite a while ago, and saying, geez,

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Speaker 4: this is not okay. Look at how attached and dependent

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Speaker 4: everybody already is on these little machines. And you know,

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Speaker 4: I realized this isn't just something that I was struggling with.

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Speaker 4: It wasn't just something that my husband was struggling with.

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Speaker 4: Everyone around us was struggling with this problem. But at

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Speaker 4: that point, there wasn't a big conversation happening around the

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Speaker 4: issue of technology and our relationship with it. And I

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Speaker 4: like to joke that I've got a history of turning

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Speaker 4: my personal issues into professional projects, and so I thought, oh, well,

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Speaker 4: that's interesting. Maybe I could actually write a book about this,

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Speaker 4: and I could actually try to solve my own problem,

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Speaker 4: but also help other people at the same time. And

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Speaker 4: so that's what led to my book, How to Break

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Speaker 4: Up with Your Phone, because I really genuinely wanted to know,

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Speaker 4: you know, what is our screen time doing to us?

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Speaker 4: What's happening to our ability to think and be creative

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Speaker 4: and remember things and all these other things as a

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Speaker 4: result of our relationships with our phones. And then most importantly,

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Speaker 4: what can we do to change things? How can we

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Speaker 4: actually have a healthy relationship with technology.

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Speaker 3: I think that a lot of people feel that way,

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Speaker 3: that this is a personal problem. They're on social media

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Speaker 3: and they're on their phone too much, and they're apologizing

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Speaker 3: a tenor sorr I should put this away, like we

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Speaker 3: feel like it's our problem, but it really isn't. As

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Speaker 3: you've discovered, entirely our faults. These phones are designed to

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Speaker 3: manipulate uniquely human traits. So could you talk a little

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Speaker 3: bit about like what exactly they are exploiting in us? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I think you make a really import point just to

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Speaker 4: emphasize that first, which is that this is not our fault.

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Speaker 4: A lot of times people blame themselves for spending so

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Speaker 4: much time on their phones or on particular apps, and

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Speaker 4: they feel guilty, and they feel ashamed, and then they

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Speaker 4: feel powerless. But the reality is that there's only one

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Speaker 4: of each of us, and there are thousands of people

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Speaker 4: working at technology companies to try to hook us on

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Speaker 4: their products because that's how they make money. They make

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Speaker 4: money from taking our time and our attention from us.

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Speaker 4: So it is not our fault. And the last thing

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Speaker 4: we want to do is feel guilty or ashamed of

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Speaker 4: what we're doing on these apps or on our phones.

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Speaker 4: Is that doesn't help anything. But I think to answer

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Speaker 4: your question about how are these things manipulating us, they're

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Speaker 4: designed to tap into very basic human needs for connection

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Speaker 4: and friendship. The promises that social media companies make, in particular,

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Speaker 4: if you read the mission statements on their websites, they

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Speaker 4: sound great.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 4: Snapchat says it's meant to help empower people to express

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Speaker 4: the full range of human emotions without pressure to be

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Speaker 4: popular or perfect.

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Speaker 6: That seems a stretch, but okay, yeah, I know, right,

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Speaker 6: like okay, But you know, I think that there are

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Speaker 6: genuine reasons we reach for our phones.

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Speaker 4: We don't like feeling bored, so we look for distractions.

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Speaker 4: We don't like feeling lonely, so we look for connection,

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Speaker 4: and we often feel overwhelmed by work, and so we

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Speaker 4: want to have a break.

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Speaker 5: So all of it makes sense.

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Speaker 4: The unfortunate reality is that many of those promises are lies,

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Speaker 4: and the quote connection you find if you turn to

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Speaker 4: social media is not going to feel anywhere near as

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Speaker 4: good as spending time with someone in real life, or

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Speaker 4: even having a virtual conversation like we're having now, you know,

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Speaker 4: with another real person is fundamentally different. So I think

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Speaker 4: they really do take advantage of our basic human needs

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Speaker 4: and kind of distort them for their own purposes, and

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Speaker 4: their own purpose, primarily is just to make more money.

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Speaker 5: One thing that's absolutely essential.

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Speaker 4: For all of us to know is that the way

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Speaker 4: that the app makers who make our most problematic apps

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Speaker 4: make money is by selling advertisements, by basically selling our

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Speaker 4: time and attention to companies that want to show us ads.

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Speaker 4: And what that essentially means is that if an app

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Speaker 4: is free, then you are actually not the customer of

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Speaker 4: that app. You're actually the product that's being sold, or

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Speaker 4: more specific, your time and attention are being sold, and

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Speaker 4: the real customers are other companies that are paying the

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Speaker 4: social media company to put ads for their products in

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Speaker 4: your feed and get you to look at them. So

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Speaker 4: that can be really eye opening for people when they

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Speaker 4: realize that, and something to keep an eye out for.

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Speaker 4: Because the goal of free apps social media being the

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Speaker 4: biggest culprit here is to keep us glued to our

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Speaker 4: screens for as long as possible, And so how do

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Speaker 4: you actually do that? Well, the easiest way to do

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Speaker 4: that is take advantage of our brains dopamine systems. And

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Speaker 4: dopamine is a brain chemical that helps us establish habits.

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Speaker 4: It helps our brains notice and remember things that are

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Speaker 4: important and then motivate us to do them again in

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Speaker 4: the future. So the example I always use is like

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Speaker 4: if you were walking in the woods and you came

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Speaker 4: across a raspberry bush, Well, the red of the raspberry

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Speaker 4: against the green leaf is a dopamine trigger. It will

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Speaker 4: get your brain to automatically release a little bit dopamine.

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Speaker 4: You might also have some vague memory that that type

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Speaker 4: of berry was sweet in the past, and all of

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Speaker 4: those things together will motivate you, often on a subconscious level,

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Speaker 4: to reach for that raspberry on the bush and eat it.

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Speaker 4: And then when you do that and you don't die,

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Speaker 4: and it tastes sweet and you're like, oh, it's a

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Speaker 4: raspberry your brain is going to release dopamine, and then

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Speaker 4: it's going to make it more likely that if you're

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Speaker 4: in the woods in the future, you're going to be

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Speaker 4: scanning for raspberry bushes, even if you don't realize you're

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Speaker 4: doing it, and if you come across one, you're going

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Speaker 4: to be even more compelled to reach for that berry

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Speaker 4: again in the future because of the dopamine habit loop

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Speaker 4: that you've established and that example, dopamine's doing a good thing.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's actually evolutionarily essential because it motivates us

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Speaker 4: to do things that are necessary for survival, like eat

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Speaker 4: and reproduce. Dopamine's released some response to sex as well.

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Speaker 4: But you can see how you can take advantage of

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Speaker 4: that system. Because your brain's not deciding to release dopamine,

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Speaker 4: it's automatic if you encounter a dopamine trigger. And so

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Speaker 4: something that product designers have recognized is that if you

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Speaker 4: want to create a product that hooks people, and if

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Speaker 4: you want to create a product that maximizes the amount

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Speaker 4: of time that people are going to spend on it

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Speaker 4: is very simple. All you need to do is put

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Speaker 4: dopamine triggers into your product, and then on a subconscious

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Speaker 4: biochemical level, people are going to establish the habit of

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Speaker 4: spending lots of time on your product. And the best

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Speaker 4: example of that type of device, a device that manipulates

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Speaker 4: our brain chemistry to keep us coming back, is the

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Speaker 4: slot machine. Slot machines are packed with dopamine triggers and

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Speaker 4: they're widely considered to be some of the most addictive

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Speaker 4: machines in the world. There's actually laws in many states

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Speaker 4: like preventing people under a certain age from even using

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Speaker 4: slot machines because they're so addictive. And that is very

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Speaker 4: concerning because there are so many similarities between smartphones and

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Speaker 4: apps and slot machines that some experts, including Tristan Harris,

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Speaker 4: who's a pretty well known advocate, actually call smartphones slot

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Speaker 4: machines that we keep in our pockets. So, again going

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Speaker 4: back to the idea that if you spend a lot

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Speaker 4: of time on your phone and you find yourself spending

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Speaker 4: more time than you want or realize on your phone,

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Speaker 4: please don't blame yourself. You have actually been brain hacked,

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Speaker 4: which is a term from the industry on a biochemical level,

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Speaker 4: into behaving in ways that benefit the companies and not you,

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Speaker 4: and you didn't even know what was happening, because again,

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Speaker 4: it's brain chemistry. It's this release of dopamine that's causing

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Speaker 4: you to behave in the way that you are. It's

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Speaker 4: very much like we're just conditioned lab raps.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, I feel that because now I'm also hungry for Raspberry,

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Speaker 2: so I'm definitely falling right into that trap.

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Speaker 4: I brainhacked you, did You got there just with my words?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Early in your book you present the idea of

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Speaker 2: just turning your phone off, completely putting it in another

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Speaker 2: room in a drawer. What does it say about me

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Speaker 2: if when you even just mention the fact of turning

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Speaker 2: it off, I got a wave of anxiety.

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Speaker 4: I think that means you're a twenty first century human being.

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Speaker 4: When I get talks, I'll often say like, I challenged

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Speaker 4: you to turn your phone off for the next hour

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Speaker 4: or whatever when I'm giving a talk, and then I'm like,

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Speaker 4: if you even know how to turn your phone off?

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Speaker 4: Because they've made it very difficult. I think it started

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Speaker 4: with the iPhone eleven. I might not be entirely right,

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Speaker 4: but like, it's not easy, and so most of us

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Speaker 4: never turn them off. But just to clarify, in case

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Speaker 4: listeners are like, oh, who is this woman who's telling

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Speaker 4: people to turn off their phones? There was in the

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Speaker 4: context of encouraging people to do an experiment where you

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Speaker 4: take a twenty four hour break from devices, and that's

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Speaker 4: something that is often called a digital sabbath, and it's

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Speaker 4: I mean, I really recommend trying, even if it's just

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Speaker 4: one time. And then if you have the same reaction

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Speaker 4: that you had where you freak out upon even hearing

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Speaker 4: the idea, let alone trying it, that's an invitation for

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Speaker 4: self reflection to be like, oh, that's interesting, Like get

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Speaker 4: curious about it. Why did that make you panic? What

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Speaker 4: are you worried about? What is the root of that anxiety,

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Speaker 4: and what would it be like to try it? And

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Speaker 4: I will say that your reaction is extremely common, okay,

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Speaker 4: but many, many, many people who I've heard from over

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Speaker 4: the years who try that report back and say, oh

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Speaker 4: my god, that was so much easier than I thought

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Speaker 4: it would be and it was so wonderful. They don't

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Speaker 4: even want to turn their phones back on at the

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Speaker 4: end of the twenty four hours.

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Speaker 3: So you've mentioned this sort of sabbath thing, but in

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Speaker 3: the book you developed this thirty day breakup plan that

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Speaker 3: starts with interestingly journaling rather than like immediately cutting the

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Speaker 3: screen time. So why doesn't cold Turkey necessarily work? Like,

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Speaker 3: what is the journaling of it all?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think that cold Turkey isn't realistic for most

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Speaker 4: people because the reality is that there's many practical functions

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Speaker 4: of our phones. But to back up, one of the

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Speaker 4: things I think that makes the breakup plan that I

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Speaker 4: came up with stand apart from some of the other

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Speaker 4: advice I've seen about screen time is that most of

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Speaker 4: the screen time advice I've seen cuts immediately to things

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Speaker 4: like turning your phone to black and white, or turning

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Speaker 4: off notifications, or get your phone into your bedroom. Those

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Speaker 4: are all really important things to do, but they don't

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Speaker 4: address the fundamental question of why you want to change

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Speaker 4: your relationship with your phone to begin with. And if

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Speaker 4: you don't know why you're doing it, then it feels

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Speaker 4: like an arbitrary set of restrictions or changes. It's almost

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Speaker 4: like going on a diet, So you just feel like

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Speaker 4: you're constantly saying no to yourself, but you don't know

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Speaker 4: why you're doing it. So I really wanted to encourage

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Speaker 4: people to spend the initial phases of this breakup getting

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Speaker 4: curious about their own motivations and not saying, oh, I

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Speaker 4: just want to cut back on screen time because I

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Speaker 4: feel guilty or I feel ashamed or whatever, but more like,

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Speaker 4: I want to cut back on my screen time because

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Speaker 4: I want to spend more time on my passions or

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Speaker 4: with my kids or with my loved ones. Have a

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Speaker 4: positive goal. So I ended up including this exercise where

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Speaker 4: you actually write a breakup letter to your phone. And

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Speaker 4: I just love this idea, but it might sound like, well,

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Speaker 4: that's kind of out of left feel like why am

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Speaker 4: I writing a breakup letter to my phone? And I

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Speaker 4: would say a couple of reasons. One is that one

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Speaker 4: of the most interesting things I discovered when I was

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Speaker 4: writing How to Break Up with Your Phone in the

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Speaker 4: first place was that I never had to explain that

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Speaker 4: metaphor to people. No One was like, I don't understand

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Speaker 4: what you mean by breaking up with your phone. I

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Speaker 4: mean they might have thought I meant dumping it, like

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Speaker 4: getting rid of it entirely, and then I always had

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Speaker 4: to clarify that, No, I mean like breaking up with

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Speaker 4: it so you can create a better relationship. But they

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Speaker 4: got the relationship concept very quickly. And I think that's

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Speaker 4: something that makes our smartphones different from most, if not all,

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Speaker 4: other technologies, is that I don't feel like I have

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Speaker 4: a relationship with my laptop. I don't feel like I

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Speaker 4: have a relationship with the microphone I'm using to talk

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Speaker 4: to you guys, but I do have a relationship with

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Speaker 4: my phone. And so that led to me thinking, wouldn't

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Speaker 4: it be interesting to just ask people to write an

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Speaker 4: actual breakup note to their phone? And what I discovered

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Speaker 4: when people did that is they started, you know, with

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Speaker 4: this kind of playful tone, but often their notes got

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Speaker 4: very deep and vulnerable and profound really quickly. There was

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Speaker 4: something about fully embodying the idea that that you are

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Speaker 4: in a relationship with the phone and you need to

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Speaker 4: break up with it that led people to express themselves

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Speaker 4: in ways that I don't think that they would have

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Speaker 4: if I just said, give me a bullet pointed list

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Speaker 4: of five reasons you want to cut back on your

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Speaker 4: screen time. So anyway, all that is to say, for

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Speaker 4: anyone listening, if you just want to play around with

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Speaker 4: any of these ideas, you might want to just like,

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Speaker 4: instead of scrolling through your phone tonight before bed, put

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Speaker 4: it in the other room and then spend ten minutes

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Speaker 4: writing a breakup note to your phone and ask yourself

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Speaker 4: things like what do you love about your relationship with

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Speaker 4: your phone? Why did you get in a relationship with

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Speaker 4: your phone to begin with? When does it feel good?

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Speaker 4: But then also like what's annoying about your phone? What

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Speaker 4: makes you mad about your phone? What has your phone

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Speaker 4: done to you? Your phone hopefully will never read this letter,

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Speaker 4: so you don't have to worry about his feelings.

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Speaker 3: But Tim Cook will, Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 4: You know, people would say like I'm furious that you

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Speaker 4: made me miss out on moments with my child, or

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Speaker 4: like I wasn't present at my own wedding or whatever

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Speaker 4: because I was worried about the images on social media,

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Speaker 4: Like you can express these feelings that you may not

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Speaker 4: even realize you have. Anyway, that's a very long answer,

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Speaker 4: but that was the idea behind that initial journaling prompt.

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Speaker 3: No, I love that, and I think a lot of

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Speaker 3: what you're talking about speaks to mindfulness. For anything in life,

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Speaker 3: you do need a reason to do it. I mean,

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Speaker 3: if there's no reason to your point, it's arbitrary. But

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Speaker 3: if you actually have a very strong reason, like getting

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Speaker 3: more in touch with your family, Like, can't think of

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Speaker 3: a better reason to break up with your phone than that.

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Speaker 3: But one thing I am curious about sometimes I think

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Speaker 3: it's hard for people to think of their phone as

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Speaker 3: an addiction, but it very much can be, and you're

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Speaker 3: probably going to go through some withdrawal if you really

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Speaker 3: begin to remove it from your life. So do you

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Speaker 3: have any advice for people who are having difficulty with

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Speaker 3: that kind of situation? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: So, technically, the American Psychiatric Association is not classified smartphone

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Speaker 4: or social media over use as an addiction, which is

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Speaker 4: interesting because gambling is the first ever behavior to be

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Speaker 4: classified as an addiction. And as we talked about, smartphones

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Speaker 4: are designed to mimxed lot machine. So I think it's

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Speaker 4: a matter of time. But just want to recognize this

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Speaker 4: is not officially a diagnosis yet. But the reality is

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Speaker 4: that the reason that these apps and our phone are

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Speaker 4: so hard to put down is because they're tapping into

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Speaker 4: the exact same brain systems, a dopamine system that's involved

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Speaker 4: in addiction. When you try to cut back in a

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Speaker 4: behavior or a substance you're addicted to, you're going to

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Speaker 4: go through withdrawal. So it doesn't really matter if we

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Speaker 4: call it a strict addiction or not. But if you

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Speaker 4: start to cut back, you might notice that you feel restless,

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Speaker 4: or that you feel kind of blah. Your anxiety might

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Speaker 4: go up, so you might start to see some of

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Speaker 4: these symptoms that actually are signs of withdrawal. It isn't

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Speaker 4: the same thing that happens when people cut back on

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Speaker 4: substances or addictive behaviors. And I would say, don't beat

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Speaker 4: yourself up for feeling bad. Instead be like, yes, this

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Speaker 4: is a sign that this is exactly what I need

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Speaker 4: to be doing right now, and that it's necessary. And

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Speaker 4: if you stick with it without judging yourself, without getting

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Speaker 4: mad at yourself. But if you're able to kind of

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Speaker 4: ride out those emotions and ride out your cravings almost

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Speaker 4: like you can imagine yourself as a surfer that's riding

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Speaker 4: out a wave, then those cravings and those feelings will

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Speaker 4: start to fade on their own. And research has shown

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Speaker 4: that on average, of people are able to take a

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Speaker 4: in this case of herdbreak from for example, social media

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Speaker 4: for about two weeks. That's when the symptoms start to

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Speaker 4: really wane. One of the crucial things, though, is to

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Speaker 4: find a replacement behavior, so say, if you start to

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Speaker 4: feel these bad things as a result of spending less

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Speaker 4: time on whatever your most problematic app is or your smartphone,

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Speaker 4: Like go back to that question. We've been talking about,

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Speaker 4: what do you want to do with your free time,

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Speaker 4: like even things to keep your hands busy, like knitting

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Speaker 4: or like a puzzle. I mean really just anything to

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Speaker 4: kind of give you a replacement activity and then try

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Speaker 4: to ride out this experience because things will get better,

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Speaker 4: but it might be rough for a while.

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Speaker 2: Surfing great replacement activity, as we mentioned.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and then also get a friend to do this

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Speaker 4: with you. It's so much easier if you've got a friend,

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Speaker 4: and then you'll build a stronger relationship and you'll have

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Speaker 4: support along the way.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to embark on this thirty day challenge,

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Speaker 2: but we've sort of talked about like cold turkey is

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Speaker 2: probably not going to work. We've written the letter, what

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Speaker 2: are some realistic goals for less phone time? Like we

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Speaker 2: can't go from like one hundred to zero, so what

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Speaker 2: should we sort of be aiming for.

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Speaker 4: I don't think there's a one specific goal in terms

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Speaker 4: of time that you need to be aiming for, but

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Speaker 4: I do recommend that people calculate how much time they're

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Speaker 4: spending and what it adds up to. I mean, if

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Speaker 4: you spend four hours a day on your phone, that's

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Speaker 4: about sixty.

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Speaker 5: Full days a year.

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Speaker 4: So that's a lot of time, right, I mean, you

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Speaker 4: can keep doing the math, it's like every hour adds

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Speaker 4: up to roughly fifteen days a year, and that's full

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Speaker 4: twenty four hour days. So if you're just talking about

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Speaker 4: your waking time like it's even more so that can

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Speaker 4: be very sobering for people. So I'd go for that

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Speaker 4: wake up call and then ask yourself, geez, like, what

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Speaker 4: could you do with that time if you hadn't spent

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Speaker 4: it on your phone. But I'd also really recommend again

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Speaker 4: do the breakup letter, but identify what do you want

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Speaker 4: to be spending your time on, because if you can

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Speaker 4: fill your time with more of those things, your screen

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Speaker 4: time will naturally decrease. If you have more time with

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Speaker 4: your real life friends, you're not going to be on

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Speaker 4: social media as much because that need for connection will

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Speaker 4: have been fulfilled by being with your friends, and you'll

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Speaker 4: just have fewer hours in the day because you just

439
00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,240
Speaker 4: spent them with your friend. You can't spend those hours

440
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,360
Speaker 4: now on social media vice versa as well. I think

441
00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:06,160
Speaker 4: in terms of like practical steps people should take, ask yourself,

442
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,320
Speaker 4: what do you like about your phone and want to

443
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,879
Speaker 4: keep doing with it? And what do you not like

444
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,080
Speaker 4: and want to spend less time on Because one of

445
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:15,240
Speaker 4: the most difficult parts of this is that our phones

446
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,240
Speaker 4: genuinely are useful tools.

447
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:19,000
Speaker 5: There's many reasons.

448
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,439
Speaker 4: We have them, right, but some apps are much more

449
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,600
Speaker 4: problematic than others. And for many apps it's very clear,

450
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,760
Speaker 4: like Google Maps not a problem for most people. Online banking,

451
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:30,280
Speaker 4: I've never met anyone who's like.

452
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:30,879
Speaker 1: I can't stop.

453
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, I've spent six hours looking at my bank accounts. Yeah,

454
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,840
Speaker 4: so that's not stuff to feel bad about, Like that's

455
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,199
Speaker 4: actually making your life better, more efficient, more enjoyable in

456
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,640
Speaker 4: some way. But then also identify your problem apps. They'll

457
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,880
Speaker 4: probably be social media, they'll probably be the news, games, dating, shopping.

458
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,639
Speaker 4: These are all slot machine apps. They're all designed to

459
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,639
Speaker 4: hack our brains, dopamine system and get us to spend

460
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,679
Speaker 4: more time on them. And if you can identify what

461
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 4: the biggest problems are for yourself, then you can focus

462
00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,680
Speaker 4: your attention on figuring out how to create better boundaries

463
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,000
Speaker 4: on those apps and spend less time on them. So

464
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 4: once you kind of have this sense of good apps

465
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,320
Speaker 4: versus bad, then you can start to take concrete steps

466
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:09,399
Speaker 4: on your phone. Like one thing I always tell people

467
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 4: is that if an app is a huge problem for you,

468
00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,320
Speaker 4: don't keep it on your phone. Like if you were

469
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,400
Speaker 4: trying to quit smoking, you would not hopefully carry cigarettes

470
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,159
Speaker 4: around in your pocket, because everyone knows that would be

471
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,439
Speaker 4: not very effective way to quit smoking. But if you

472
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,879
Speaker 4: know that you've got a problem scrolling through the news

473
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:26,800
Speaker 4: or Instagram or what have you, experiment with getting it

474
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:29,159
Speaker 4: off your phone. I always say experiment instead of just

475
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,000
Speaker 4: get it off your phone because people freak out if

476
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 4: they think, oh, I don't think I can do that.

477
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,479
Speaker 4: You can do it for twenty four hours. Get Instagram

478
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 4: off your phone for the weekend. I actually haven't had

479
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,800
Speaker 4: news apps on my phone since like twenty seventeen, and

480
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,520
Speaker 4: I am not entirely uninformed. I just checked from a

481
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,520
Speaker 4: desktop browser, you know. But like, get it off your phone,

482
00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:48,520
Speaker 4: don't keep it in your metaphorical or literal pocket if

483
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,000
Speaker 4: it's a problem for you, And then I'd also recommend

484
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:52,919
Speaker 4: that you read it is on your home screen and

485
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,520
Speaker 4: your phone to just make it as boring as possible, because,

486
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,439
Speaker 4: as we were just talking about, our phones are deliberately

487
00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 4: packed with dopamine triggers to get us to want to

488
00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 4: spend time on our phones. You can fight back by

489
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,119
Speaker 4: doing things like adjust your settings so it's really easy

490
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 4: to toggle between black and white and color. You don't

491
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:08,920
Speaker 4: want to have to go into the settings to do that.

492
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,399
Speaker 4: You want to make it easy where you just hit

493
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,399
Speaker 4: the side button three times and it will go back

494
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,879
Speaker 4: and forth. Experiment with that for a couple days. It

495
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,280
Speaker 4: is amazing how much less appealing the screen is if

496
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,879
Speaker 4: it's in black and white. Also, clean up your home screen,

497
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,400
Speaker 4: you know, like most people just have all their apps

498
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,159
Speaker 4: on their home screen in the order in which they

499
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 4: were downloaded and in the order in which they just

500
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 4: happened to appear when you got your phone. You have

501
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,399
Speaker 4: control over that. So my homescreen on my phone is

502
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 4: actually entirely empty.

503
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:34,159
Speaker 5: Wow.

504
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just have the app library, and then if

505
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 4: I want to open an app, I just pull down

506
00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,159
Speaker 4: the search bar and I search for the app. And

507
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 4: going back to Matt your point about mindfulness, it's because

508
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 4: I want to be intentional about using an app. I

509
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 4: want to open the app because I had a thought, Oh,

510
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,199
Speaker 4: I want to do X on my phone, and so

511
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,280
Speaker 4: I'm opening the app to do that. I don't want

512
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 4: to have it be Oh I just am kind of

513
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,199
Speaker 4: like looking for something to do in this moment, and

514
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,359
Speaker 4: I turned to my phone and there's the Instagram or

515
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 4: whatever it is. Make your phone boring is basically the

516
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,880
Speaker 4: message here. And also make sure you reduce your notifications

517
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,959
Speaker 4: because the notifications, which I call interruptions because that's really

518
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 4: what they're doing. They're interrupting you for something, and the

519
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 4: technology companies care about they're there to draw your attention

520
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 4: away from your present experience. So make sure that the

521
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 4: ones you allow are things you actually want to be

522
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 4: interrupted for. So if you take those steps just with

523
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 4: the phone itself, that'll make a big difference. And then

524
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,320
Speaker 4: there's just things you can do with your physical environment

525
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 4: to just make it easier to do the things you

526
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,120
Speaker 4: want to spend time on and harder to spend time

527
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,120
Speaker 4: on your phone. So like if you establish you want

528
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 4: to read more books, or you want a journal more,

529
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 4: or you want to work on a craft project, or

530
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 4: you want to practice an instrument, like leave the guitar

531
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:38,920
Speaker 4: out of its case, put a journal on your bedside

532
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 4: table along with a book, like make those things as

533
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 4: accessible as possible, but then also make it harder to

534
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 4: use your phone. So I charge my phone in a

535
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 4: closet at night.

536
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 5: We have a voice.

537
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 4: Over internet phone like a landline that we use so

538
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 4: that if there were an emergency, people could call the

539
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 4: quote unquote landline, which, by the way, some of those

540
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 4: landlines are actually free once you set them up, or

541
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 4: it's a very very low monthly rate. It's very easy

542
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 4: to get a landline these days. And then also keeping

543
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 4: your phone out of your bedroom and getting a standalone

544
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 4: alarm clock, very simple advice that people know, they often

545
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 4: don't do, but when they do it. I cannot even

546
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,480
Speaker 4: tell you how many grown adults have said to me

547
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 4: getting an alarm clock.

548
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, I getting my phone out of my bedroom has

549
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 5: quote changed my life.

550
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 4: And I was like, God, if I knew that, I

551
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 4: didn't have to write the book, I just had to

552
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 4: sell alarm clocks.

553
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 5: Like that would have been so much easier.

554
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 2: Did you get one of those alarm clocks that have

555
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,120
Speaker 2: the weather on it too? Because I feel like one

556
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 2: of those would probably solve my entire life.

557
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 5: You know, I actually just have a child as my alarm.

558
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 6: Okay, I actually haven't used an alarm clock in years

559
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 6: unless I'm traveling because she gets up very regularly or

560
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 6: my husband gets up. But yeah, Like, you make a

561
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 6: really good point, which is basically, identify what your needs

562
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 6: are and then problem solve to figure out how to

563
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 6: do it without your phone. The point is that if

564
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,400
Speaker 6: your phone is your alarm clock, you have to touch

565
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 6: the alarm to silence the alarm, right, So it guarantees

566
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 6: that the first thing you interact with in the morning,

567
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 6: literally the first thing is going to be your phone.

568
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 6: And once people realize that, they're like, oh right, I

569
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 6: don't want that. And the amount of time people get

570
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 6: back just by having the phone out of the bedroom

571
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 6: at night so you can fall asleep and you can

572
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 6: read journal whatever before bed instead of scrolling, and then

573
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 6: starting the day on your own terms, and then also

574
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 6: not getting distracted if you get up in the middle

575
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 6: of the night to use the bathroom and then you

576
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,479
Speaker 6: look at your phone, right, you get like twelve hours

577
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:24,040
Speaker 6: of time.

578
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 5: It's amazing. So I really suggest doing that.

579
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 3: That's been the biggest thing for me and kind of

580
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 3: like dovetails into like why I was so excited to

581
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 3: talk to you because it's something I've been experimenting or

582
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 3: telling anyone who will listen to me talk how much

583
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 3: this has changed my life. I fully sleep with my

584
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 3: phone in the other room now, and I had a why,

585
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 3: which was I wanted to read more. I love reading,

586
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 3: and I was not reading at all unless Instagram and

587
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 3: Reddit counts as reading, which it doesn't. And it's been

588
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 3: such a huge just peace of mind shifted, like it

589
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 3: actually has made my bedroom a more like sanctuary space

590
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 3: where I'm actually getting more sleep because reading a book

591
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 3: on my kindle is far more boring than reading anything

592
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 3: on the slot machine that is my phone, to your point,

593
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 3: and it's made me think about other ways that I

594
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 3: can do this and actually thank you for saying that

595
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 3: thing about the notifications. It's true, like I don't need

596
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 3: to know in the middle of dinner what is going

597
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 3: on in the world, because the terrible thing's going on

598
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,679
Speaker 3: in the world, and if I want to read about it,

599
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,919
Speaker 3: I can open up a browser and go to wherever

600
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 3: I like to get my news and do that intentionally

601
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 3: when I want to.

602
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 4: Just one thing in response to that, because news is

603
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 4: a huge problem for people you know, across the political spectrum,

604
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 4: and I would just say one thing that made a

605
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 4: real difference for me is realizing that my phone is

606
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 4: kind of a Pandora's box of emotions, and once you

607
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 4: open it, you can't shove those emotions back in. There's

608
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 4: just a lot of stuff happening right now, and many

609
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 4: people are very upset by it. And so if you

610
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 4: know that, I would encourage people to have a conversation

611
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 4: with themselves about what they want their relationship with the

612
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 4: news to be and then try to figure out specific

613
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,640
Speaker 4: times where you're going to open that box for yourself.

614
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,159
Speaker 4: But just as you're saying, Matt, do not have that

615
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 4: be all the time whenever a news app decides to

616
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 4: send you a notification. So many people are living in

617
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 4: such a state of anxiety right now and also exhaustion

618
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,439
Speaker 4: and burnout. I think in large part because of this

619
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 4: constant onslaught of news. And keep in mind that while

620
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 4: as a journalist I believe strongly in the need to

621
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 4: have journalists and press, most news organizations actually also make

622
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 4: their money off of advertising, and so they're going to

623
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 4: show you stuff that upsets you because that increases their engagement.

624
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,159
Speaker 4: So while I think it's absolutely essential that we support journalism.

625
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 4: Do recognize that you can stay informed without going nuts,

626
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 4: I guess is what I'm saying. Or maybe you can't

627
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 4: I don't know, but you can at least try to

628
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,479
Speaker 4: minimize your emotions by saying, Okay, I'm going to check

629
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 4: it from my desktop, or some people I know even

630
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 4: have gone back to paper newspapers, yeah right, Or I'm

631
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 4: going to listen to this show during this time and

632
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 4: then I'm not going to listen to it. So all

633
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 4: that is to say, I think that it's a really

634
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 4: important kind of self reflection to determine what you want

635
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 4: to learn about, when you want to learn about, and

636
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 4: how you're going to create boundaries around it so you

637
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 4: can feel as informed as you feel you need to

638
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 4: be without having a negative impact on your own mental health,

639
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 4: because I think a lot of us think that staying

640
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 4: informed is helping other people. It's helping, but in reality,

641
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 4: how much is it helping other people versus getting you

642
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 4: worked up?

643
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 5: And personally?

644
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 4: I believe like you have to take care of yourself

645
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 4: in order to be able to be a positive force

646
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 4: in the world. And so if you're allowing your own

647
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 4: anxiety levels and stress levels to get so high that

648
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 4: you feel paralyzed. It's actually hurting your ability to make

649
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 4: a positive change in the way that you might want

650
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 4: to if you're finding that, despite your best intentions, you can't. Again,

651
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 4: not your fault, but part of my issue with technology

652
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 4: companies is they don't give us built in tools that

653
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 4: actually help us create healthy relationships with their devices.

654
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 5: And so for example, Apple's.

655
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 4: Screen time feature great idea, but that stupid little hourglass

656
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 4: that pops up if you exceed your limit on an

657
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 4: app doesn't actually block you out of the app. It

658
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 4: just asks if you want to extend the time, and

659
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 4: then you feel guilty about yourself because you hit, you know,

660
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,679
Speaker 4: fifteen minutes more. There are a number of app blockers

661
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 4: on the market, and they're both actual apps but also

662
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 4: physical gadgets that you can use to set limits on

663
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 4: your own screen time in particular categories of apps, and

664
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 4: even set schedules for yourself that truly do block you

665
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 4: out of the apps during the times that you specified,

666
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,719
Speaker 4: and I highly recommend that people look into those. Some

667
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 4: of the ones I hear people talk about a lot

668
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 4: are Freedom is a great app. I use that myself,

669
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 4: opal screen Zen, These are apps you can use. There's

670
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 4: a fantastic physical gadget called the Brick.

671
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 2: Matt is the bricks number one fan, So Matt has

672
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: you're just spreading the gospel of bricks.

673
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 3: So just say, you know, yeah, the brick is great.

674
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 5: Oh okay, so people know.

675
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 4: But the brick you scan your phone over it as

676
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 4: if you're paying for something with a credit card on

677
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 4: your phone, and it will actually block your chosen apps

678
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 4: so that you only have the ones you chose to

679
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 4: be allowed.

680
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

681
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 4: Point being like on a weekend or when you're on vacation,

682
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 4: what I do. I'm like, I only want to have

683
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,479
Speaker 4: access to my camera and the actual phone and the

684
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 4: map app yep, maybe a couple other things, right, like

685
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 4: the tickets for the plane, and I block everything else.

686
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 4: And then suddenly your smartphone turns into this not a

687
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 4: temptation but a tool, and you can actually keep it

688
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,239
Speaker 4: with you and use it just for those things, and

689
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 4: it's beautiful, and the reduction and anxiety and the ability

690
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 4: to truly take a break, it's astonishing. So please use

691
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 4: app blockers people. Until the phone companies get the message

692
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 4: that they should build these features into their actual products,

693
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 4: you couldn't agree.

694
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 2: More, we'll be right back after a quick break.

695
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: And we're back with more grown up stuff. How do

696
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 1: I don't.

697
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 3: So we've talked a lot about blocking and removing these distractions,

698
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 3: which are really really important. But I think that people

699
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 3: have this question on the other side of that coin,

700
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 3: which is like you've got all this like free time,

701
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 3: and maybe you're a little bored now, Like I'm curious

702
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 3: kind of like how you think about the situations, like

703
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 3: what do we do now stare at the ceiling, talk

704
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 3: to a neighbor. What is a good way to bring

705
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 3: some good stuff into your life? Or is boredom in

706
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 3: and of itself good?

707
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 4: I mean both the suggestions, the worst ones. Definitely talk

708
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 4: to your neighbors. That's how you build community and feel

709
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 4: less alone. It will be actually much for a rewarding

710
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 4: than spending that same time scrolling through social media. Even

711
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 4: if you find your neighbor annoying, it's human connection. I

712
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 4: don't think there's anything wrong with stereoto ceiling to think

713
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 4: that boredom and space is incredibly important for us to have,

714
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 4: because our brands can't come up with creative and new

715
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 4: thoughts if we're constantly filling them with information from content

716
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 4: on our phone. So I'm a big fan of boredom.

717
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 4: But I also would say, like, prepare to feel a

718
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 4: little bit lost if you've been spending a ton of

719
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 4: time on your phone.

720
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 5: This happened to me.

721
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 4: I wasn't even spending that much time on it, but

722
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 4: during one of those digital sabbaths where my husband and

723
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 4: I weren't using screens at all, and I had this

724
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 4: quiet hour all to myself. You know, my daughter was nappy,

725
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:40,959
Speaker 4: and it should have been this like glorious moment in

726
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 4: early parenthood, and I freaked out because I thought, oh

727
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 4: my god, I actually don't know what I want to do,

728
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 4: Like my whole life is word So the last thing

729
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 4: I wanted to do actually was read a book.

730
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 5: We weren't using TV.

731
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 4: I don't really like TV anyway, but I really had

732
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 4: this kind of existential moment. So don't worry, like it

733
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 4: might get darker before it gets better, but it's an

734
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 4: invitation to get curious about, like what's going on there?

735
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 5: What's that feeling.

736
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 4: One thing I asked people when I was writing the

737
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 4: original How to Break Up with Your Phone that helped

738
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 4: me personally was what's something that you say you want

739
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 4: to do but you supposedly don't have time for because

740
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 4: if you cut back on your phone time, you will

741
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 4: end up with more time. And the answer is different

742
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 4: for everybody, but for me, I remember thinking, oh, I

743
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 4: really want to learn how to play the guitar, Like

744
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 4: I have a guitar, I've never learned to play it,

745
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 4: And I ended up signing up for a class. And

746
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 4: I would say classes are wonderful if you've got a

747
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 4: curiosity about something and you can take a class, do it,

748
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 4: and just know that it's harder to leave your house

749
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 4: and go to a class than it is to sit

750
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 4: at home and scroll on your phone, but you should

751
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 4: do it, because I ended up having this kind of

752
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 4: joyful feeling in this class, just other adults, like learning

753
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 4: to play guitar for no purpose other than the fun

754
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 4: of it. And then I ended up writing an entire

755
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 4: book about the feeling I was having, which I realized

756
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 4: was fun. But I would say, don't be worried if

757
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 4: you freak out, that's part of it. If you feel

758
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 4: empty and confused and like you don't know what to do,

759
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 4: but just start keeping a list of like, what are

760
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 4: things that you're vaguely curious about? What are things you're

761
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 4: interested in doing or trying. They don't have to be huge.

762
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 4: It could be like even a place in your city

763
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 4: or town you've never visited before, or a new restaurant

764
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 4: you want to try, or that book that you kind

765
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 4: of were interested in reading, or you always kind of

766
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 4: wanted to learn a new language or an instrument, and

767
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 4: don't be afraid to use technology to help you with

768
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 4: some of those, like in person is always going to

769
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,479
Speaker 4: be better. But you know, once I got into guitar,

770
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 4: I realized there's an app called guitar Tabs that has

771
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 4: the chords for any song you could possibly ever want

772
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 4: to play. And so now if I get together with friends,

773
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 4: we use that app to create more of a sense

774
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 4: of connection between us because we can now play any song.

775
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 4: I mean, that's an amazing use of technology to immediately

776
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 4: be able to be like, Okay, let's all play this

777
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 4: song anyway. This is some ideas, but I would just

778
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 4: start keeping a running list and then make it a

779
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 4: subject of conversation with your friends. Just have conversations about

780
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 4: what are things you're interested in doing or trying, And

781
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 4: it's kind of a fun way to connect with people.

782
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 4: And then you might end up with some curiosity that

783
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 4: leads to a passion that you never knew you would have.

784
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 4: Whatever you do, honestly is going to be better than

785
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 4: sitting in home scrolling on your phone.

786
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 5: So that's also like bar is low, people, very very

787
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 5: very low.

788
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, my advice is just leave your phone at home,

789
00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 3: go on a walk, and check in with yourself. I

790
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 3: used to work this awful job where I was working

791
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 3: about twelve hours a day. I had no time to

792
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 3: even think about what I was going to eat, much

793
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 3: less like prep and plan a meal and cook it.

794
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 3: And so I just started out of necessity. On Friday,

795
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 3: I would literally walk all the way home. It was

796
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 3: like a two hour walk home just to like ask myself,

797
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 3: like are you okay?

798
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: Like what's going on with you?

799
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 3: And that ended up like changing my life in a

800
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 3: big way because I realized like what I needed to

801
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 3: do and have us take care of myself and how

802
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 3: to kind of like reclaim a little bit of my

803
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 3: life back.

804
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: And so that's the.

805
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 3: Advice I would have for anyone. If your phone is

806
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 3: off or brick or whatever it is, and you're a

807
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 3: little board man, go on a walk and check in

808
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 3: with yourself.

809
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that could be scary, right, Like that space

810
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 4: and that emptiness can feel scary, but it's so necessary.

811
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 4: I think that's what we chase away when we're constantly scrolling.

812
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 4: Is that discomfort that comes from having to think like,

813
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 4: oh is my life what I wanted to be? Or

814
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 4: am I living up to who I want to be?

815
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 5: Like?

816
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 4: That's very uncomfortable, So we just push it away just

817
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 4: by being busy and scrolling. But maybe necessary if you actually, yeah,

818
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 4: you want to be fulfilled.

819
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 2: Well, before we get to our exercise crisis, we're not there,

820
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 2: all right, I mean, well I've been there, But in

821
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 2: this personal conversation, just in this specific one that we're having,

822
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 2: I do want to get to the book that you're

823
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 2: working on, because I do think a big part of

824
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 2: this as well, is how do we prevent the children

825
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 2: in our lives from reaching their existential crisis by the

826
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 2: time they hit kindergarten because they are also addicted to

827
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,720
Speaker 2: scrolling and that's something that already sort of consumes their world.

828
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 2: So what should we be doing or not doing to

829
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: ensure that future generations aren't really succumbing to what we

830
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 2: are experiencing with our addictions to social media?

831
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 5: Now?

832
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you for asking that, because that's one of

833
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 4: my biggest passions now to my own daughters tend so

834
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 4: this is like.

835
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:44,399
Speaker 5: Very top of mine.

836
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,479
Speaker 4: So I actually started teaming up with Jonathan Height, who's

837
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 4: a social psychologist, and he wrote this mega bestseller of

838
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,760
Speaker 4: The Anxious Generation, which if the parents listening, we probably

839
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:53,959
Speaker 4: have heard of it, and if you haven't, you should

840
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 4: run and get a copy immediately. But it's about what

841
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,919
Speaker 4: smartphones and social media and other addictive technologies have done

842
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 4: to Gen Z in particular. And John and I are

843
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 4: now teamed up and we're writing a new book called

844
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 4: The Amazing Generation, which is a book that draws on

845
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 4: both of our areas of expertise and writings. That basically

846
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 4: is our attempt to inoculate the next generation of kids

847
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 4: against the siren songs of screens and technology and show

848
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 4: them the things we've been talking about that you know,

849
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 4: actually social media companies are not out there to connect us,

850
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 4: they're out there to make money from us, and that

851
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 4: you're actually a product, and that the best things in

852
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 4: life usually happen off screens. So that book is geared

853
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:35,280
Speaker 4: towards like fourth through sixth or seventh grader's ish relevant

854
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,720
Speaker 4: whether or not they have smartphones or social media already,

855
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 4: and that's coming out December thirtieth, So I'm incredibly excited

856
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,439
Speaker 4: about it, and hopefully, you know, just try and say

857
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 4: my daughter's generations like, no big deal, really doesn't keep

858
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 4: me up at night or anything, no pressure.

859
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: I do worry about it.

860
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. I have a friend who has a kid, and

861
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 3: the kid came over one day and the kid was

862
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 3: playing a video game while listening to a podcast while

863
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 3: watching a YouTube video at the same time, and I

864
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 3: was like, nope, no, no, no, no, Like, how could

865
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 3: you focus on anything when that's going on all of them?

866
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 5: You can't.

867
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 4: I mean, that stuff literally does keep me up at night.

868
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 4: And I would say for any parents listening. You know,

869
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 4: obviously depends what age your kids are, but I would

870
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 4: say in general, kids do not need screens as much

871
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 4: as we seem to think they do. They are able

872
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 4: to entertain themselves, Like the human brain is incredibly creative

873
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 4: if we give our brain space. So if you've got

874
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 4: a young child at home and you haven't gotten into

875
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 4: the habit of using a screen as a I mean babysitter.

876
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 4: I don't mean to sound judgmental, but that is how

877
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 4: many of us use it right, because it's very effective.

878
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,359
Speaker 4: It's a great babysitter. But if you haven't, don't get

879
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 4: into that habit. Like I remember my husband and I

880
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 4: used to kind of have a go bag of stuff

881
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 4: if we were going out to a restaurant with our daughter,

882
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 4: and it'd like crayons or like toys, like depending how

883
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 4: old she was, but something that could keep her entertained

884
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,240
Speaker 4: that wasn't a screen, and then also try to engage

885
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 4: her in conversation. Little babies like they look at the

886
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 4: world around them, that's how they learn. I think we

887
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 4: really are harming brain development when we put screens in

888
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 4: front of kids at young ages. And I think also

889
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 4: modeling good tech habits ourselves is extremely important for adults.

890
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 4: And also to realize this is a really serious issue

891
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 4: and that your fears about your kid getting left out

892
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:12,959
Speaker 4: are totally justified at the moment because so many kids

893
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 4: do have social media and smartphones at a young age.

894
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 4: But it is much more important to focus on what

895
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,439
Speaker 4: your kids will miss out on if you do give

896
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 4: them access to these things, which is the ability to

897
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 4: live and engaging and fulfilling real life with real relationships

898
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 4: in the real world. And I also think parents need

899
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 4: to educate themselves on how dangerous social media is for

900
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 4: kids and smartphones and unfettered internet access. I could go

901
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 4: on about that, but I think parents need to understand

902
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 4: that it is far more dangerous to allow your kid

903
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 4: to be alone on a screen, chatting with strangers or

904
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 4: doing whatever with unfettered Internet access than it is to

905
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 4: let them go do something on their own in real

906
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 4: life and the majority of circumstances. So adults take this seriously.

907
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 4: Social media is not safe for kids. It should not

908
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 4: be given to kids. You should not give your kid

909
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 4: until they are at least sixteen access to anything guarding

910
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 4: social media. And if you give them a smartphone, they

911
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 4: will have access to social media and they will have

912
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 4: access to the entire Internet. There are a lot of

913
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 4: smartphone alternatives out there you can get your kid that

914
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 4: will allow them to communicate with friends and stay in

915
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 4: touch with people without giving them access to those things.

916
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 4: So look into what your kid needs, for example, a

917
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 4: way to contact you out of the house, or a

918
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 4: way to talk with their friends, and there's a way

919
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 4: to give them that without giving them access to the

920
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 4: entire Internet, and without giving the entire internet access to

921
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:28,720
Speaker 4: your child.

922
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 3: And also you can you can look up interviews with

923
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 3: people who create these apps. You know, people who've worked

924
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 3: at Facebook and metter Like they don't let their kids

925
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 3: use this stuff because they know how bad it is.

926
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you for bringing that up. That's great, great irony.

927
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: Right.

928
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,919
Speaker 4: It's like the CEO of TikTok is on the record

929
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 4: sayne he doesn't let hiss kids use TikTok, Like, it's interesting,

930
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 4: I'll let their own children use their products.

931
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

932
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

933
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 2: Is there anything else that we didn't touch on yet, Catherine,

934
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 2: that you feel is important for people to know as

935
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,479
Speaker 2: they embark on this journey of less screen time.

936
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 4: I think the only thing I would say in that

937
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 4: regard is one of the most inspiring pieces of feedback

938
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,399
Speaker 4: I've gotten from people who have read How to Break

939
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 4: Up with Your Phone and gone through the plan is

940
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 4: that their lives improved dramatically, very quickly. So if you

941
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 4: actually take the step to reevaluate your relationship with your phone,

942
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 4: you may be surprised by how quickly you begin to

943
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 4: experience positive effects, even within a couple of days. And

944
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 4: as soon as that starts to happen, you'll realize, oh, yeah,

945
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 4: this is going to be challenging because these devices are

946
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 4: designed to addict us, but the benefits are so great

947
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 4: and the moment you kind of get a taste of

948
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 4: what life is like on the other side, it's going

949
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,880
Speaker 4: to get a whole lot easier. And so just have faith, like,

950
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 4: take that first step, and you may be pleasantly surprised

951
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 4: by how it's not as hard as you thought and

952
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 4: how much better you feel. You also may go through

953
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 4: a pit of existential despair, but your life will be

954
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 4: better in addition to the one I'm already in right now.

955
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 5: So yeah, I know, right, yeah, exactly.

956
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 2: Well, for people that are ready to accept the challenge,

957
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 2: your book is called How to Break Up with Your Phone,

958
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 2: and remind us the name of the book that comes

959
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 2: out at the end of the year as well.

960
00:39:58,320 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 4: So the book that comes out at the end of

961
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 4: the year is called The Amazing Generation. And the place

962
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 4: that I like writing the most is on Substack, And

963
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 4: I have a Substack newsletter called how to Feel Alive.

964
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 4: So if people want to look for me there, that's

965
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 4: where I get my creative fix. Yes, and I write

966
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 4: about things related to screen life, balance and phones and

967
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 4: fun and connection and community and basically, you know, as

968
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 4: we're talking about, it's where I work out my personal

969
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 4: issues with hopes of helping other people.

970
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 2: So that's where we can read about your existential crisis

971
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 2: on your substack.

972
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, hopefully I'll make it funny.

973
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:31,879
Speaker 2: Okay, great, well, Katherin, thank you so much for this.

974
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm going to go look at my phone

975
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 2: after this, but I'm not gonna like it, but I

976
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 2: am going to feel better about I for the record,

977
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 2: even though turning it off makes me anxious. A lot

978
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 2: of times, I will take breaks on the weekends just

979
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 2: from social media completely. So everything you say is correct,

980
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 2: because truly, by the end of Sunday night, I am

981
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 2: like I don't even care what's on there anymore.

982
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 5: Like I'm good.

983
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,879
Speaker 2: But thank you for reinforcing all of that. I loved

984
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 2: your book and I loved this conversation today because it

985
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 2: was very enlightening and very motivating.

986
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 5: Let's go, let's go.

987
00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 4: Thank you both so much for the opportunity to share

988
00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 4: this stuff, and hopefully our conversation will help inspire some

989
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:02,719
Speaker 4: other people.

990
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 2: Yes, you could do it ride the wave, so yeah.

991
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, all right, thank you, Catherine.

992
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 2: Okay, Matt, which of these ideas have you already put

993
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 2: into motion when it comes to your social media usage.

994
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 3: So the coolest thing that has happened since this episode

995
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 3: aired is that the brick app now actually does what

996
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 3: Katherine was talking about with the schedule. So essentially, you

997
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 3: could break your phone, and the only way to unbrick

998
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 3: it was to like find the little physical device and

999
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 3: like tap your phone to it. But now you can

1000
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 3: do a schedule. So what I've done is I basically

1001
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 3: at nine point thirty my phone automatically just oh, I

1002
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 3: can't use it at all. It's fully like non functional.

1003
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 2: What if you're at like a concert or something though

1004
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 2: you got to get home.

1005
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 3: Well, that's true, and you have to be preemptive about

1006
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 3: unbricking before you leave if you were going to be

1007
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 3: out for a night. So call me when I'm like,

1008
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 3: I can't get anoop to in the morning because I

1009
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,760
Speaker 3: break myself. But then it goes back on at seven

1010
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 3: but it doesn't have the social media apps.

1011
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:05,759
Speaker 2: Oh I love that.

1012
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 3: So I'm working right, So that's for the working hours,

1013
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,600
Speaker 3: and then like around seven pm, I'll allow the social

1014
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 3: apps to come on for two hours and I'm typically

1015
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 3: like having dinner at that time or whatever, so I'm

1016
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 3: probably not I'm cooking or something. Yeah, and then it

1017
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 3: goes back off at nine thirty again, and it's been amazing.

1018
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 3: I love not having to constantly brick around. But it's

1019
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 3: kind of like I've scheduled time for myself to do

1020
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 3: the things when it's helpful and not when it's not,

1021
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 3: and I just love it. So that's a big, big

1022
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 3: change on the brick app is scheduling. Way to go, guys,

1023
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 3: that is huge.

1024
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 2: Good job, proud of you. That is so good.

1025
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 3: Another thing that I've tried after talking to Catherine is

1026
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 3: I didn't realize it, but when she was talking about

1027
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 3: how you can modify your home screen to be as

1028
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 3: boring as possible, I went back and I was listening

1029
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:48,719
Speaker 3: to that, and I was thinking, like, you know what

1030
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 3: I do a lot, which kind of like bodes with

1031
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 3: the slot machine. Thing she was talking about is I'll

1032
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,280
Speaker 3: just look at my apps. I'm just scrawling through them. Yeah,

1033
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 3: I'm like, which one should I look at? And I

1034
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 3: don't need to look at any of them. And I

1035
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 3: liked what she said about like she has nothing on

1036
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,719
Speaker 3: her homescreen if she needs to use an app it's

1037
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 3: because she needs to use it and she'll like type

1038
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 3: it into search for it. And so I did this

1039
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 3: literally yesterday. I just deleted everything from my homescreen. I

1040
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 3: made it black and white.

1041
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 2: Wow.

1042
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 3: I added a picture of my loving wife. And so

1043
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 3: now I can't scroll through the apps anymore. There's nothing

1044
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,760
Speaker 3: to scroll through. I've been like just typing in everything

1045
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 3: if I need to do something, and it's like I

1046
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 3: love that. Wow, it's so cool.

1047
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 2: This gives me anxiety, but I am so proud of you.

1048
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 3: I'll update you the next time we see show Yes

1049
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 3: do it's only been like twelve hours.

1050
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 2: Make sure I take my beta blocker before you tell

1051
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 2: me about it.

1052
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 3: But what about you?

1053
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 2: I don't have any notifications except you know who has

1054
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: been notifying me du a lingo and they are so

1055
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 2: aggressive sometimes.

1056
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 3: They really are. That little parent is like just won't

1057
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 3: shut up.

1058
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 2: But I feel like that's a good notification because it's like, okay,

1059
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 2: I'm learning. So I'll accept that one. But the rest

1060
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 2: are called will allow Yeah, I'll allow that one. The

1061
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 2: rest are gone.

1062
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,800
Speaker 3: The rest are gone, They're gone. I feel very free, amazing.

1063
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 3: So news apps like oh.

1064
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 2: No news, no news, no, somebody liked your post. No,

1065
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 2: somebody commented on your post, none of that. So when

1066
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 2: I do go to a social media app and I

1067
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 2: open it up and somebody has commented or liked or

1068
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 2: slid into those dms, it's a fun surprise for me.

1069
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 3: Well, I am going to add one more notification back

1070
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 3: into your life, which is a notification that we'll be

1071
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 3: back in two weeks with another episode.

1072
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 2: That's a good one. I'll accept that notification. I'm very

1073
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 2: excited for that, and so until next time, good luck

1074
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 2: being a grown up.

1075
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 3: This is a production of Ruby Studio from iHeartMedia. Our

1076
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 3: executive producers are Leapel, Mary and Matt Stillo.

1077
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,240
Speaker 2: This episode was edited and engineered by Sierra

1078
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 3: Spreen and we'd like to thank our teammates at Ruby Studio,

1079
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 3: including Sarah you, Ethan Fixel, Rageiswan krasnov Lydia Kim, Abby Aguilar, Harper, Wayne,

1080
00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:04,240
Speaker 3: Deborah Garrett, and Andy Kelly.