1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: Hey guys, ed here this week, we're coming to you 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: with a special episode from the archives. It's my chat 3 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: with the Emmy Award winning political commentator Rachel Maddow. Rachel 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: is also the host of the hit show Ultra, and 5 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: back in twenty twenty three, she and I sat down 6 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: to talk about our fascination with history, the eerily prescient 7 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: stories in our respective podcasts, and why we do the 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: work we do. It's probably one of my favorite chats 9 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: I've ever had on this podcast, and so I'm really 10 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: excited to share it with you again today. Keep listening, 11 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: and we'll be back with a regularly scheduled episode next week. Enjoy. 12 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: Welcome back, SNAFU listeners. We're back to discuss a dicey subject, 13 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: a far right coup, an attempt to overthrow the democratically 14 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: elected government of the Night States of America. Because you'll 15 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: never degue our country with wis you have to show 16 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: strength when you have to be strong, we have Nope, 17 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: not that one. In the United States District Court Washington DC, 18 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: Chief Justice Edward C. Iiker, besides, at the trial of 19 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: thirty elled seditionists, here we go. That's the one that's right, 20 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 1: My friends, back in nineteen forty four, the Nazis tried 21 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: to overthrow the US government with the help of some 22 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: US congressmen know less. I'm talking about the Great Sedition 23 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: Trial of nineteen forty four, which is the subject of 24 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: a history podcast hosted by Rachel Maddow called Ultra Now. 25 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: Ultra and Snafu have a lot in common. Both podcasts 26 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: are deep dives into important moments in American history which 27 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: are largely forgotten, and yet they feel oddly prescient to 28 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: our world today. So naturally, I wanted to sit down 29 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,239 Speaker 1: and talk with Ultra's creator. So today I'm coming into 30 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: your feed with a treat my conversation with Rachel Maddow 31 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 1: about Ultra and Snaffu. We talk about these two extraordinary stories, 32 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: forgotten history in general, the roots of authoritarianism, and how 33 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: it all weaves into current events. Rachel is well known 34 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: for being a rigorous on air journalist, author, and podcaster. 35 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: She's curious, a deep thinker, profoundly insightful, and pretty damn funny, 36 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 1: all of which makes her a hell of a lot 37 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: of fun to talk to. I really enjoyed this conversation. 38 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,119 Speaker 1: I learned a lot, and I think you will too. 39 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: So here it is my chat with Rachel Maddow. Hello, 40 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: Hi and Rachel Maddow. It's so cool to meet you. 41 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: This is awesome to meet you too. 42 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: It's great. This is very exciting. 43 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 1: Indeed, I agree, thanks so much for jumping into our 44 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: SNAFU universe. So what's happening? Where are you? 45 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 3: I'm in rural dirt road, western Massachusetts. 46 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: Dirton Road. I don't know that. 47 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 3: It's kind of the ambient vibe where I We're really 48 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 3: out in the middle of nowhere. 49 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: It's fantastic. 50 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: What are you hiding from, Rachel? What's going on? 51 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 2: Humans? 52 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that's fair. Are you in a bunker? 53 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 2: What's weird? Actually? And this is true. 54 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 3: The cottage that I'm in right now, this little house 55 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 3: in which we built this studio, audio studios and stuff 56 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 3: so I can do my TV show from here, has 57 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 3: a legit nuclear bomb shelter in the basement. 58 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: Because you built it or because it was already there. 59 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 2: No, it was there. 60 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 3: It was built by whoever had this house in the fifties. 61 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 3: And it's got concrete like this and triple rebar and 62 00:03:58,000 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 3: when we came in to like flatten out the floor 63 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 3: and make everything normal, the contractor was like, we have 64 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 3: to leave the basement. 65 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: Can I tell you something. I'm not like a crazy 66 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: prepper kind of doomsday person, but like I would like 67 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: to have a bunker. 68 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 2: It just seems like a nice option. 69 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well this is fun. I would love 70 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: to go deeper into apocalypse preparation, but we have some 71 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,799 Speaker 1: really fun stuff to talk about. First of all, your 72 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: podcast Ultra was the number one podcast on Apple for 73 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: what like five. 74 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 3: Weeks, A bunch of weeks, A bunch of weeks it 75 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 3: was number one, and then it was less than number one, 76 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 3: and then it was back up to number one again. 77 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 2: So it was really a surprise and very exciting. 78 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and very well deserved. I listened to it twice. 79 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: I just had it was so fun. I listened to 80 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: it all the way through, and then I was like, 81 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: I gotta hear that again, but I don't have as 82 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: much time, so I listened to it at like one 83 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: point eight. And it's funny when you listen to something 84 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: sped up like that, everyone sounds unbelievably intelligent. 85 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 3: I had the opposite problem, which is that my doctor, 86 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 3: who is you know, my doctor like kind of my friend, 87 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 3: but my doctor texted me all concerned that there was 88 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 3: something wrong with me because he had listened to Ultra 89 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 3: and he was like, you really, I know you've had 90 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:26,919 Speaker 3: issues with depression and stuff in the past, and you 91 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 3: really turns out he was listening to it on zero 92 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 3: point seventy five. 93 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: Oh my god, he thought I was really down. That's amazing. 94 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 3: He thought he had special medical insight into what was going. 95 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: On with Yeah, that's amazing. Great Ultra. It is an 96 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: extraordinary story. It is extremely well told. It's incredibly engaging 97 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: and really really fun and I would love to just 98 00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: for our Snafoo listeners, if you haven't heard Ultra, can 99 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: you break it down? Just like, what's the basic story? 100 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 3: The basic story is in the lead up to World 101 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 3: War Two there was a really really big Nazi and 102 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 3: I mean that specifically. 103 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 2: I don't mean like Nazis. 104 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 3: I mean were the Nazis big Nazi effort to try 105 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 3: to exploit what the Germans called kernels of disturbance in 106 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 3: the United States, and so they were trying to propagandize 107 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 3: us really heavily. They supported a bunch of American native 108 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 3: fascist movements that were way scarier than we remember them 109 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 3: in history, and they paid a bunch of members of 110 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 3: Congress and senators to be on their side for this effort, 111 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 3: and it all sort of culminated in the Great Sedition 112 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 3: Trial of nineteen forty four, when nearly thirty of the 113 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,559 Speaker 3: folks who were involved with the Nazis in these various 114 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 3: plots got put on trial and they got off. 115 00:06:58,240 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 2: There was a mistrial, and they were all let go. 116 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: It's so profound, this story, It is so intense, and 117 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: it's totally mind blowing. In your description just now, you 118 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: said that trial was the Great Sedition Trial of what 119 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: nineteen forty forty four? That implies that this was like 120 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: a landmark event that we all know and understand. What's 121 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: so incredible about this story? To me, among there's lots 122 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: of things incredible about it, but one of the most 123 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: incredible things is how forgotten it is. And it's something 124 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: that I think our podcasts share, which is the sort 125 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: of forgotten history stories that are that are insanely important. 126 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: And one of the historians in your podcast actually says 127 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: at one point, I'm a PhD in history, and most 128 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: of my colleagues who are PhDs in history have never 129 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: heard of this, and so then of course the general 130 00:07:55,480 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: public has no idea, and I wonder why is it forgotten? 131 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 3: Well, it's you know, I was thinking about the parallels 132 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 3: with that and with Able Archer, with what you cover 133 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 3: in Snaffu, and I think there there is something that's 134 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 3: like important for us to reflect on as people who 135 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 3: tell stories and who are interested in history, which is 136 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 3: that sometimes the reason something is forgotten is because of 137 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 3: who won and who lost. Right, Like the goods, history 138 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 3: is told by the winners, and sometimes what the winners 139 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 3: most want is for us to forget that the thing happened. 140 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 3: And that's definitely I feel like that's a little bit 141 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 3: of the story that you unfold in in Snaffu, Like 142 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 3: with the CIA doing its assessment of what happened with 143 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 3: Able Archer and whether it was a close call, They're like. 144 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 2: No, no, no, it was fine. It was no big deal. 145 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 3: And that's part of the history that you uncover and 146 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 3: that you tell in the story. But it's also important 147 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,680 Speaker 3: that the CIA wants it to be minimized, not to 148 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 3: be remembered as a significant thing. And a sort of 149 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 3: different version of that happens in my story, where the 150 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 3: good news ending to the extent that there is one 151 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 3: is that all of the elected officials who were part 152 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 3: of this plot, who are the real bad guys here, 153 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 3: the public knew enough, they found out enough about what 154 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 3: those guys were up to that they voted them all 155 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 3: out of office, like all but one of them got 156 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 3: voted out of office. And so even though a lot 157 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 3: of them were household names, really influential members of the 158 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 3: House in the Senate at the time, once they got 159 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 3: turfed out by voters who were disgusted by their behavior, 160 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 3: they went from being big deals to being losers. 161 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 2: And the losers get forgotten. 162 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 3: And so part of the history that we have to 163 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 3: contend with is how much are the players here minimized 164 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,439 Speaker 3: in history, either because it's convenient for somebody or because 165 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 3: the good guys won, And how much does that affect 166 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 3: whether this story is easy to find or easy to 167 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 3: be told. So I find that dynamic interesting because you 168 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 3: have to put yourself then in the story in terms 169 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 3: of how hard it is for you to find these things. 170 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: Well, it's a little bit of a scary reality when 171 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: you think the forgotten stories of history are very often 172 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: some of the most important, because the reason that they're 173 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: forgotten is that they were either painful or embarrassing or 174 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: extremely problematic, and yet those are the things that we 175 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: do have the potential to learn the most from. 176 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 3: And the other the other circumstance in which that happens 177 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 3: is because it was a really scary thing and some 178 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 3: Americans or some characters in the story rose up and 179 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 3: did the right thing and neutralized the danger, right, and 180 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 3: then the heroes. Yeah, but that's also those heroes. We 181 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 3: also need to learn that story, you know. So it's 182 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 3: it's it can't It can be like a deliberate shunt 183 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 3: this a way, let's not think about it, But it 184 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 3: can also be a like who close call, let's forget 185 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 3: about it? 186 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, Yeah, okay, So how the hell did 187 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: you find it? Like with SNAFU, we just we wanted 188 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: to do a podcast, and we wanted to do something 189 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 1: kind of history and irreverent, and we set about looking 190 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: for the thing. Did you know you wanted to do 191 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: a podcast and look for something exciting and meaningful or 192 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: did you just dig up this story or stumble on 193 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: it and then say this has to be told? 194 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 2: So I was. 195 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 3: I sort of feel like the all the best stories 196 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 3: that I've ever been involved in telling come out of ignorance, 197 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,439 Speaker 3: like come out of legitimate curiosity, like I don't understand 198 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 3: where this came from, or this thing that everybody thinks 199 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 3: makes sense to them doesn't make sense to me. And 200 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 3: I was going through that sort of train of thought 201 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 3: just as part of my news you know, my day 202 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 3: job at MSNBC, thinking about Holocaust denial. So we're having 203 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 3: this big upsurge in anti semitism and kind of anti 204 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 3: semitism wedded to political power. 205 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 2: Which is a very dangerous thing. 206 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 3: And at the core of all of it is this 207 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 3: sort of burbling thing where people say the Holocaust didn't happen. 208 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:06,719 Speaker 2: And I've always felt like it's not obvious to me 209 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 2: how that. 210 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 3: Can exist intellectually, sure, like it's one thing to be prejudiced, 211 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 3: it's another thing to say this obvious thing and history 212 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:17,079 Speaker 3: of which we have all this proof. 213 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 2: I choose to contend that it didn't happen. 214 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 3: And so I was interested in where that came from, 215 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 3: and particularly where it came from in the first instance, 216 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 3: like how early on did people start denying it? 217 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 2: And what I. 218 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 3: Found, to my surprise, is that Holocaust denial really came 219 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 3: from the United States. It didn't come from Germany, and 220 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 3: it happened really early on. It happened in the forties, 221 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 3: which is nuts because there's all these American gis and 222 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 3: refugees from Europe, including refugees from Germany coming here, who 223 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 3: are eyewitnesses, who are survivors who had family members killed 224 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 3: or who were liberating the concentration camps. I mean, so 225 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 3: all this irrefutable evidence, and yet this thing emerges in 226 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 3: the late forties in the United States and then starts 227 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 3: pinging around the world. We're going to say that didn't happen. 228 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 3: So interested in where the hell did that come from 229 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 3: and why and who were the characters who dreamed this 230 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 3: out knowing that it was false, but concocting it for 231 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 3: a political reason, And in trying to figure that out, 232 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 3: which is a story I'm still going to tell, but 233 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 3: I haven't gotten there yet, I realized that actually those 234 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 3: folks came out of this milia during World War Two 235 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 3: in the United States that we've forgotten about, and they 236 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 3: all went on trial and oh my god, the judge 237 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 3: died in the middle of the trial and they were 238 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 3: all set free. And then what happened to them is 239 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 3: so it ended up being kind of the prequel to 240 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 3: the story that I wanted to tell, but I realized 241 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 3: there was enough there that I should probably tell it. 242 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: That's that is fascinating. I feel like that's kind of 243 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 1: how some of the best stories do come about. 244 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 2: Can I ask you a SNAFU question about that? 245 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: Please? Yeah? 246 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 3: I thought the thing that I most admired about the 247 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 3: storytelling in SNAFU was your sort of fearlessness about casting 248 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 3: doubt on the story. So obviously there's I mean, for 249 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 3: everybody listened to it, like, there's lots of twists and 250 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 3: lots of you know, backing up and reconsidering stuff that's 251 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 3: earlier been presented. And I wondered, when you constructed the 252 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 3: story and when you decided to do it, did you 253 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 3: know about the doubt and uncertainty and sort of woliness 254 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 3: of the bottom line of that story when you started, 255 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 3: or did you think it was a more certain story 256 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 3: when you started and you only got to that you know, 257 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 3: more mature, complex bottom line once you were into it 258 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 3: in the middle of the research. 259 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was the latter. Like everything you read about 260 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: Able Archer in the sort of to the extent that 261 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: it's in the zeitgeist, just little blips and blurbs. It 262 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: sounds like a very cut and dry thing, but like anything, 263 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: the more you dig, the more nuanced it becomes. And 264 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: then it became for us as storytellers just feeling a 265 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: kind of response. It's ability to reflect that nuance and 266 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: the complexity. You know, even some even historians have some 267 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: different perspectives on it that are that are very meaningful. 268 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. We really wanted to lean into the 269 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: integrity of it, and that made it a little bit 270 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: messier of a story. But ultimately the messiness kind of 271 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: gave rise to some really exciting questions and kind of pontifications, 272 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: and that's really where we wound up kind of putting 273 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: the focus in that last episode. 274 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 3: Well, it makes it more profound and more real. It 275 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 3: also makes it more of a contribution to the history 276 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 3: of it. Right to have all the interviews that you 277 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 3: do and to have an honest reflection of the real 278 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 3: you know, the legitimate contention with the various facts and 279 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 3: the various perspectives on it. It's a it's a it's 280 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 3: a real work of history with all all the jokes included. 281 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 3: But also it does get you to a more profound 282 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 3: place in terms of getting I think encouraging critical thinking 283 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 3: about seemingly cut. 284 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 2: And dry episodes. 285 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 3: I just thought that was really, like I said, mature 286 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 3: and complex and cool. 287 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: Go on. 288 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 2: Also, you guys, you're just so handsome. 289 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: And it was No, that's I'm literally like getting chills. 290 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: That means so much to hear from you. Yeah, Rachel, 291 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: I really really appreciate that, And yeah, we really put 292 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: a ton of work into it, and so that means 293 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: a lot. 294 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 3: I think you had it harder than I did, because, 295 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 3: in my case, the Great Sedition Trial of nineteen forty 296 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 3: four is forgotten. The only histories of it have been 297 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 3: written by people who sympathized with the fascist defendants, and 298 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 3: so all the histories of it have all been about 299 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 3: how they were railroaded and it was terrible that these 300 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 3: people were put on trial, and how ridiculous this contention 301 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 3: that the Nazis were working with any Americans? Do you 302 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 3: believe how prejudiced the Department of Justice is against good 303 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 3: American conservatives, And so all the history, all the history 304 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 3: of it was really biased and all in the same direction, 305 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 3: and nobody had ever revisited that history looking at it 306 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 3: from a more balanced perspective, And so I didn't have to. 307 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 3: I didn't have to contend with sort of you know, 308 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 3: great nuanced, honest broker perspectives on both sides. There was 309 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,199 Speaker 3: just a bunch of clap trap written about it, and 310 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 3: nobody had ever done a broader, less I think, in 311 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 3: my from my perspective, less biased look at the evidence. 312 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 1: Wasn't I thought Roggy wrote a book? But were you 313 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: able to dig that up? Is that is that findable? 314 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 2: Ish? 315 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: Yeah? 316 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 3: I mean, if you want to get a copy of it, 317 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 3: I can maybe give you a deal. I think I 318 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 3: own all the copies of it there were. It never 319 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 3: had like a second printing, It never went anywhere. 320 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: He really tells us, sorry, tell us who Roggy is, 321 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: because I just brought him up out of the blue. 322 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 3: So Roggy is O John Roggy, who is a German American. 323 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 3: Interestingly enough, he grows up in the United States, son 324 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 3: of German immigrants, speaking German at home, and he's this 325 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 3: wonderkins lawyer and prosecutor and Justice Department official. And he 326 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 3: ends up being the crusading prosecutor who tries to bring 327 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 3: the sedition trial home, who tries to finish it, who 328 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 3: fights against the mistrial and the great twist in my 329 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 3: story in Ultra is when as the trials falling apart, 330 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 3: Ragi gets leave to go to Germany and he gets 331 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 3: to try to prove his contention that these weren't just 332 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 3: conservative Americans who had their own anti Semitic fascist ideas 333 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,239 Speaker 3: that were actually working with the Nazi government. They're being 334 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 3: paid by the Germans in many instances. He gets to 335 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 3: prove that from the German side, and he interviews all 336 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 3: these Nazi prisoners and they in fact give him all 337 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 3: the dirt on all the Americans they were working with, 338 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 3: and so he's able to prove the collusion, if you will, 339 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 3: from the other side. And by the time he brings 340 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 3: those findings home to the United States, we have won 341 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 3: the war. 342 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 2: Everybody wants to move on. 343 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 3: Roggy has become a political figure in a way that 344 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 3: he is. He is very much demonized by one side 345 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 3: and then ultimately by the other side, and nobody really 346 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 3: wants to hear it. And so he does create this 347 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 3: really valuable historical record. But by the time it lands 348 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 3: he finally gets it published, he has to fight with 349 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 3: the Justice Tournament to get it declassified and all this stuff. 350 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 3: By the time it finally lands in the public record. 351 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 3: It's nineteen sixty one, and this is ancient history, and 352 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 3: nobody buys the book, and nobody reviews it, and nobody 353 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 3: stocks it in their archives, and it just disappears until 354 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 3: you know, all these decades later, that story ends up 355 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 3: being of interest to me because of its resonance with 356 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 3: our current situations. And thank god he did it, because 357 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 3: the record's there, even though nobody cared about it in 358 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 3: his life time and he died in obscurity. 359 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: It just raises so many fascinating questions and issues. Okay, 360 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: so anti semitism or racism in all its forms, these 361 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: are things that most people agree are bad, right, They're 362 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: just bad, bad, and gone. Yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah. 363 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: They also seem embedded in most modern emergencies of fascism. Yeah. 364 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: I know, throughout history, totalitarianism pops up in many different 365 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: forms all over the political spectrum. But fascism, and I 366 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: ask this not as any kind of indictment of conservatism, 367 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: but fascism in particular, seems to bubble up from the right. 368 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 1: Why do you think that is? 369 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 3: Well, I mean I do think that there's you know, 370 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 3: there's different types of authoritarianism, right, and there's definitely you know, 371 00:20:54,760 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 3: left wing authoritarianism as well, of course, and the when 372 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 3: you're talking about you know, tyrannical forms of government. Right 373 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 3: wing authoritarianism, which in some instances is fascism. Not always, 374 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 3: but sometimes this is fascism ends up having a recurrent 375 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 3: appeal in our country and in other Western democracies. I 376 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 3: think because people don't like democracy. I mean, the basic 377 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 3: idea of democracy is that everybody gets a say. And 378 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 3: if you think that you and people like you should 379 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 3: get a say but other people shouldn't, that's an instinct 380 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 3: that people have. And there can be left wing authoritarianism, 381 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 3: which is a different drive and comes from a different 382 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 3: place and leads to murder, leads to mass murder and 383 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 3: terrible as much becomes as well, just as much Mayham. 384 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 2: But on the right. 385 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 3: The way it works is me and my people were 386 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 3: the only people who should count as citizens. The other 387 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 3: people who are technically you're telling me how to be 388 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 3: part of this democracy are lesser than or evil or 389 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 3: their interlopers, and we not only need to exclude them 390 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 3: from the decision making process, but we need to blame 391 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 3: them for all the things that are going wrong here, 392 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 3: and we need to exclude them from the decision making 393 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 3: process and punish them for all the terrible things they've done, 394 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 3: because if it was just us in charge, everything would 395 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 3: be fine. And that's the basic idea. And that's why 396 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 3: authoritarianism on the right almost always. 397 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 2: Comes with anti semitism. 398 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 3: It's either going to be anti semitism or it's going 399 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 3: to be some other thing that looks like anti semitism 400 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 3: that is directed towards some other minority group because you 401 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 3: need some out group to define as the source of 402 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 3: all the problems, because you, the in group, are perfect 403 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 3: and if you were just given full control, everything would 404 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 3: be fine. And it's just it's dumb and it's simple, 405 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 3: and it's recurrent. 406 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: And humans we're dumb. Yeah, humans are dumb. 407 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 2: We do dumb things, and we don't remember what the 408 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 2: old dumb things were, so the new dumb things come. 409 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 3: Around and we're like, whoa, yeah, you're telling me it's 410 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 3: the juice, you know. 411 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 2: Shocker. 412 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: There's that great Hegel quote. The only thing we've learned 413 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: from history is that we learn nothing from history. And 414 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: I wonder if you have any thoughts on how we 415 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: can do better. It feels like in with modern technology 416 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: we should be able to be better at learning from 417 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: from history, but maybe we're just not wired for it 418 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 1: in our DNA. 419 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 3: I think that you know, fart jokes helps, you know, 420 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 3: like when you know you did that whole riff on, 421 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 3: like the Valentines, Like I have so many treasons that 422 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 3: I love you, like Valentine's for Spies, and like the 423 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 3: well fake game show that you inserted into, like like 424 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:47,719 Speaker 3: the it's storytelling skill and up being the entertainment quotient 425 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 3: in direct ratio with the complexity of the story that 426 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 3: you're telling. 427 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 2: That helps. 428 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 3: Like, I don't know that that's technological innovation, but it's 429 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 3: it's an evolution of our sort of ambition to make 430 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 3: these stories understandable, memorable, repeatable, you know, both on TV 431 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 3: and in this podcast and book world that I'm into, 432 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 3: I try to tell stories in such a way that 433 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 3: they stick. And so even if you can't persuade somebody 434 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 3: else to listen to Ultra, or you can't persuade somebody 435 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 3: else to read my book about Spiro Agnew, if you 436 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 3: listen to the podcast or if you read that book, 437 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 3: you will have absorbed the story well on us that 438 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 3: you can give somebody the gist of it and pass 439 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 3: it on, right, And that's what you're doing in SNAFU. 440 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 3: That's the whole idea of doing real history that's rigorous 441 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 3: and honest and intellectually engage with the ambiguities and all 442 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 3: those things. But it's also fun and is also not homework. 443 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 3: It's just it's something that's a pleasure. And I think 444 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 3: that's you know, if you've got those skills, that's a 445 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,879 Speaker 3: that's a mitzvah. That's a service to humanity into our 446 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 3: country to use them that way. 447 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, you got to give give people some some candy 448 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: with the vegetables, right, you. 449 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 2: Gotta do you gotta do your Nancy astrologer stuff. It's important. 450 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 2: It turns out to be important, it is. 451 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 1: It's crazy how important astrology was in the Reagan administration. 452 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: It's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. 453 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 3: Growing up in the eighties in San Francisco, I have 454 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 3: to tell you the fact that Nancy's astrologer was in 455 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 3: San Francisco, I remember being like. 456 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:24,679 Speaker 2: Kind of proud. 457 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh that's funny. 458 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 3: This idea, like the rasputant pulling the strings in the 459 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 3: Reagan White House might be. 460 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 2: This lady in Bob Hill was actually like a source 461 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 2: of regional pride for me. 462 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: Oh that's great. I think the thing that I feel 463 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: like is missing is and maybe this is a maybe, Rachel, 464 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 1: maybe this is a book pitch for us. Maybe we 465 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 1: do a book together, and it's basically like the lessons 466 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: of history. These are the lessons, and then here are 467 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 1: the events that teach us those lessons. So you can 468 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: no longer say like, well I don't know how to 469 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: interpret that, or I don't know what to learn from that, 470 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: Like we need a pendium of the lessons Leason seventeen. 471 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 2: Stop blaming the Jews. 472 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: Okay, here's what. That's what, right, here's what. This is 473 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: a book we need to write. 474 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 3: Have a have a phone that connects between Washington and Moscow? 475 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: How about that? Here's that phone? Yeah, and you and 476 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: use it occasionally. 477 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 2: But I think that. 478 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 3: It's interesting to me that there really is a lot 479 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 3: of interest in documentary and history stuff. Yeah, that's a 480 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 3: surprise to me, Like seeing like how popular documentaries are 481 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 3: on Netflix. When Netflix offers you in with literally equal effort, 482 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 3: like clicking on one side of the screen versus the other, 483 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 3: you can watch anything. So many people opt for documentaries. 484 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 3: There there's something there is an there's a rational and 485 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 3: constructive human hunger to learn stuff, and that's that to 486 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 3: me is very heartening. 487 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 2: You know, I feel like, Okay, that's room to run. 488 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: I agree, I agree with that, and I actually I 489 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: think the success of your podcast to me was very 490 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: reassuring just the you know, I think the lessons baked 491 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: into your podcast are so important and meaningful and prescient, 492 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: and I loved I was just so thrilled that so 493 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: many people were we're getting thank you both of these 494 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: stories able Archer or Snaffo, i should say, and ultra 495 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 1: our podcasts. And you have an incredible career as a broadcaster, 496 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: legendary broadcaster for many many years. How how is this 497 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:46,959 Speaker 1: kind of segue back into audio gone, and how did 498 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: it affect how you consider telling this story. 499 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,920 Speaker 3: It's a good question because definitely sort of falling in 500 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 3: love with the story and doing the research and realizing 501 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 3: like kind of where it was going and what the 502 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 3: bottom line of it was going to be and everything, 503 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 3: it was definitely an open question as to how to 504 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 3: produce it, like make I could I know that I 505 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,440 Speaker 3: could write a book about it, because I'm almost done 506 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 3: with the book about it now, or I could try 507 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 3: to produce it for TV, or try to make it 508 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 3: into a movie or do some other thing, and ultimately 509 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 3: I decided to do it as a podcast because I'm 510 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 3: kind of just in love with audio. I think that 511 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 3: my background in radio was I don't know if that 512 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 3: if it stamped a love for audio on me, or 513 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 3: if I was just wired that way anyway. But when 514 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 3: I even when I when I do TV shows and 515 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 3: stuff like, I don't really think about what stuff looks like. 516 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 3: I think of the visual presentation of whatever's going on. 517 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 3: It's just kind of decoration for the words. And when 518 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 3: you do audio, there's this I don't know, level of 519 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 3: I don't want to say like, I don't want to 520 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 3: be too sappy about it, but there's a sort of 521 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 3: level of intensity, like you're kind of speaking into somebody's 522 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 3: ear rather than sitting in front of them talking, and 523 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 3: it's it's it's can be intense, and it's also unforgiving. 524 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 3: I think you have to be more precise in an 525 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 3: audio environment and than you do when you have the 526 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 3: help of visuals to distract people. So I find it 527 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 3: to be more challenging and more rewarding. It's also kind 528 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 3: of more more the way that I like to absorb information. 529 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 3: I don't like to watch stuff as much as I 530 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 3: like to listen to it. 531 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: That's interesting. I feel similarly, I found myself just devouring 532 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: podcasts and audio books in a way that I never 533 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: really consumed television. I mean I watched TV, of course, 534 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: but I never I was never like a you know, 535 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: addicted to shows or anything. And I but then podcasts 536 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: would just suck me in and I realized, like, this 537 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: is this incredibly powerful vehicle and the way that we 538 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: work with a microphone, it's incredibly intimate, and I love that. 539 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 2: I think it's like, God, I'm pregnant, Oh Jesus, A. 540 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: Very powerful. My voice is very powerful. No. But I 541 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: feel when I watch a documentary, especially something historical, a 542 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: lot of times you can feel the sweatiness of the 543 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,479 Speaker 1: visuals there. They clearly had to dig for something to 544 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: put here, Like okay, we're panning over photographs here, we're 545 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: you know, we've got some weird visual metaphor happening, or 546 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: we're looking at uh like reenactment footage. Sometimes it just 547 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: feels like, okay, we get it, Like you had to 548 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: put something there and you didn't have something. But with 549 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: audio there. You don't, there's no cheating, you just it's all. 550 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 1: It's all there. 551 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 3: It's all speaking right into the person's ear, which is 552 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 3: inside their head, which is right next to their brain. 553 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: It's like a laser. 554 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 2: And I found that in an interesting way. 555 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 3: When we put out the first couple episodes of Ultra, 556 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 3: we didn't make up any of the sound. 557 00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 2: All the sound that we used was was was real. 558 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 3: But a lot of people thought that we had faked 559 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 3: the news broadcasts, that we had found actors who were 560 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 3: going to speak in weird old trans Atlantic accents. 561 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: It is hard to believe that broadcasters spoke in this 562 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: heightened tone like that. Yeah, it's it's it's kind of wild. 563 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 3: But they told ourselves that old timey news was all 564 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 3: very objective and staid and there wasn't any opinion or 565 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 3: emotion in it. Yeah, bs, no, but they really did 566 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 3: talk like this, and then through all sorts of shade 567 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 3: and they were side and they were you know, and 568 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 3: lots of asides and lots of opinion, and that's what. 569 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 2: It sounded like. 570 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: Well, so don't tell us what's happening next with Ultra, 571 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: because there's a very exciting sort of next step. 572 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is I kind of can't believe it. 573 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 3: But Steven Spielberg optioned Ultra to make a movie out 574 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 3: of it, and so he's this. 575 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 2: You know, he's an up and comer, is the one 576 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 2: that sort of one to watch. 577 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: First of all, huge congratulations and no brainer. This makes 578 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: perfect sense. The story is so riveting. 579 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 2: I hope that that is true. 580 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 3: I mean what I am learning is as I am 581 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 3: sort of tiptoeing into this side of the world where 582 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 3: I have never been before, is that a movie is 583 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 3: going to be made? 584 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: Is you know, like we're going to ruin it with visuals? 585 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 2: Well no, but like is a movie going to be made? 586 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 3: Like until someone is buying a ticket, receiving their change 587 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 3: and walking into a dark room where a projector is running, 588 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 3: I don't believe the movie exists, you know. 589 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 2: What I mean? Like, there's a lot that goes in. 590 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 3: Between optioning a movie and then it actually coming into 591 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:38,080 Speaker 3: the world. 592 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 2: And so I believe that it's going to be a movie. 593 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 2: But we'll see. I know, I'm you know, I did this. 594 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 3: My previous podcast was called Bagman, was about Spiro Agnew 595 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 3: and that's also in the movie making process. That's going 596 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 3: to be a focus features film, but it just takes 597 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 3: a long time, and there's all sorts of things that happen. 598 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 3: And I mean, I'm I'm used to a daily production 599 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 3: cable news world where you think of something in the 600 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 3: morning and it's on TV at at night, and then 601 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 3: you have to stop thinking about it because you've got 602 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 3: to do something else the next day. 603 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: And that the times that ain't how we make movies, Rachel, 604 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: I know, I'm learning there's a whole rigamarole, and you're 605 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: very wise to uh to kind of hold off on 606 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: on the excitement of having a movie until you're walking 607 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: in the door. But but just having a movie optioned 608 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: by someone like Spielberg is so thrilling. Or focus features 609 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: for the the agnews story, those are those are just 610 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: such credible storytellers and and you can sort of feel 611 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: confident that they'll be these stories will be handled very well. 612 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: I feel like this would be such a cool movie. 613 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 3: Both of them feel like movies to me too, Like 614 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 3: I let you know, I watch as much you know, 615 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 3: streaming television and miniseries and all that stuff as anybody else. 616 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 3: But I do feel like both of these stories like 617 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 3: seem like, you know, sit down for two hours and 618 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 3: watch a single arc in the movie theater like its 619 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 3: just and I would. 620 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 2: I'd just love for it to work in both cases. 621 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: So I also think I should play Oh John Robb Okay, yeah, 622 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: I think I should be Roggy in this movie, right, 623 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: I mean that just feels obvious. 624 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 2: Obvious for sure. 625 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:17,359 Speaker 1: Okay, So both of our podcasts have a lot of 626 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: present day relevance and impressions, and yours I think is 627 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 1: really really intensely relevant to right now. So in at 628 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: what stage in your process did the events of January 629 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: sixth happen? Was that? Were you already working on this podcast? 630 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,240 Speaker 3: No, I wasn't working on the sedition trial by that point. 631 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:49,839 Speaker 2: What was weird is that the. 632 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 3: Resonance stuff, Like I felt like I got a little 633 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 3: kick in the teeth from the universe because when the 634 00:34:55,239 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 3: first episode of Ultra was posted, when we published the 635 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 3: day that the Oathkeepers Sedition trial started, So that was 636 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 3: that was weird. 637 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: Wow. 638 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 3: And then it was eight episodes and by the time 639 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 3: we got to episode eight was when we were waiting 640 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 3: for the verdict. So it was really just that was uncanny. 641 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 3: I just felt like that was a that was a 642 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 3: little that was unsettling almost, But you know it also, 643 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 3: I feel like you do in trying to pick the 644 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 3: right story to tell, you have to believe in the 645 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 3: story on its own terms, sort of regardless of the resonance. Like, yes, 646 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 3: there is going to be resonance, and there are lessons 647 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,400 Speaker 3: to be learned and things to be gleaned from the 648 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 3: past that could help us in our current contention. 649 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 2: But I don't feel like you can. 650 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 3: You can't let that drive, you know, that has to 651 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 3: a little bit of that is just going to be 652 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 3: stuff that you can't see along the way, I was 653 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 3: thinking about it with able archer and snafu with the 654 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,320 Speaker 3: before the Korean airliner was shot down, you highlight how 655 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 3: the Russians were essentially paying, We're giving bounties to their 656 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 3: own side for people who were spotting radar incursions on 657 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,720 Speaker 3: the radar, and so you were essentially saying, like, that's 658 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 3: bad news in terms of what eventually happens with the 659 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 3: civilian airliner being shot down after being misidentified as a 660 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 3: military threat in Russian airspace. Well, you know, just within 661 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 3: the past week, Russia just gave medals to the fighter 662 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,840 Speaker 3: pilots who dumped all that fuel on the US Reaper 663 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:28,399 Speaker 3: drone over the Black Sea. 664 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 2: I mean, it's the same. 665 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure you weren't thinking about that when 666 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 3: you didnable Archer and Snuff. But Russia is doing the 667 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:43,320 Speaker 3: same thing in monetarily and with military awards, rewarding people 668 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 3: for doing incredibly reckless things that threaten conflict between the 669 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 3: East and West. 670 00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: Sure. Well, one of the things that I think was 671 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 1: really profound in Ultra was what this idea that emerged 672 00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 1: that there was no legal remedy for all of this 673 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: horrible behavior. The legal remedies failed, there was a mistrial, 674 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: and then the government basically just gave up on prosecuting 675 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: these misdeeds and because they didn't want the headache. And 676 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: so Roggy sort of makes the case in that Meet 677 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:23,840 Speaker 1: the Press interview that the remedy then must be just 678 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: transparency and information, getting it out there, educating the public. 679 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,280 Speaker 1: That's all you can do. When this bad behavior can't 680 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:38,799 Speaker 1: be actually meaningfully reprimanded in some way, all you can 681 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,800 Speaker 1: do is expose it. And I think that's very powerful. 682 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: It's also a little bit terrifying and disheartening, And I 683 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: wonder if you feel like the January sixth trials have 684 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: they've obviously gone a lot smoother than the Great Sedition trial. 685 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: But but is that evidence of progress? Do you think 686 00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: we're doing better? 687 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 3: It's it's interesting because it really does. I think it 688 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 3: cuts both ways. I think there is a case to 689 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 3: be made by looking back at the fascist movements in 690 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 3: this country that were supported by Nazi Germany, including an 691 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,280 Speaker 3: element of that that operated inside the Congress. There's ways 692 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 3: to look back at that, all that story that I 693 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 3: tell in Ultra and say, you know, some of these 694 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 3: things were legit crimes and people should have gone to jail, 695 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,479 Speaker 3: and that like crimes were committed here and crimes should 696 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 3: have been prosecuted as such, including by some members of Congress, 697 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,760 Speaker 3: where that escaped punishment, I think largely because they bullied 698 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 3: the Justice Department into not into into not coming after them. 699 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 3: And we're seeing a little bit of that happening. We're 700 00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 3: seeing some resonance with some of the stuff that's happening 701 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 3: right now in our new cycle. But the other the 702 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,280 Speaker 3: sort of good news side of what Roggy was preaching 703 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 3: on Meet the Press that day is that you know, 704 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 3: the people need to know this information. The legal remedy 705 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,960 Speaker 3: isn't there The legal remedy is the legal solution has failed. 706 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 3: The legal remedy cannot be used as are the sum 707 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 3: total of our response here. What has to happen is 708 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 3: that the people need to know. And obviously people knowing 709 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 3: isn't an end in itself. That doesn't fix it. What 710 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 3: he means, what goes unsaid, is that when the people know, 711 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:26,920 Speaker 3: they will act if and you can trust Americans to 712 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 3: defend our democracy and to stand up against tyranny and 713 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 3: to reject authoritarianism and anti semitism and all the other 714 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 3: things that go with it, but they need to know 715 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 3: that it's happening. And so that one with alls on 716 00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 3: all of us. Yeah, I mean, it calls on journalists, 717 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 3: it calls on activists, It calls on everybody who can 718 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 3: contribute to the public record, including you know, dorks making 719 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 3: podcasts down the road. But hopefully it means that a 720 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 3: well informed public will make righteous decisions. 721 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 2: And I want to believe that. 722 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 1: I do too, And I think that's a good note 723 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 1: to end on. Rachel, thank you so so very much 724 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 1: for jumping in the booth here and having this chat 725 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,319 Speaker 1: with us. It's just really really fun and I wish 726 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: you the best of luck. With the movie adaptation. 727 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 2: Thanks Ed, Thanks this has been super fun. I appreciate it. 728 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 1: SNAFU is a production of iHeartRadio, Film, Nation Entertainment, and 729 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: Pacific Electric Picture Company in association with Gilded Audio. It's 730 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,360 Speaker 1: executive produced by me Ed Helms, Milan Pipelka, Mike Falbo, 731 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,839 Speaker 1: Andy Chug, and Whitney Donaldson. Our lead producers are Sarah 732 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,840 Speaker 1: Joyner and Alyssa Martino. Our producer is Carl Nellis, Associate 733 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: producer Tory Smith. Our senior editor is Jeffrey Lewis. Olivia 734 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: Canny is our production assistant. Our creative executive is Brett Harris. 735 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: Engineering and technical direction by Nick Dooley. Special thanks to 736 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,279 Speaker 1: Alison Cohen and Matt Aisenstadt.