WEBVTT - BONUS EP 3: Andrea Dunlop in Conversation 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:05.560 Hi, it's Andrea Gunning. Last week, we shared Andrea Dunlop's story. 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:08.320 On this week's episode, Andrea and I sit down for 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:10.760 a conversation about true crime podcasting. 0:00:11.280 --> 0:00:13.160 We get into what this work means for. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.600 Us and how we approach these stories. 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:17.160 We hope you enjoy it. 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:38.159 Andrea, thank you so much for joining me. I'm a 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:42.239 listener and also a huge fan of Nobody Should Believe Me, 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:45.479 which is your show, and you know, we just shared 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:49.520 your story on Betrayal Weekly, and I'm just so glad 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:53.920 our two shows are collaborating because I think that Munchausen 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:55.920 by Proxy, which is what you cover in your show, 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:57.160 shares a lot. 0:00:57.040 --> 0:00:58.560 In common with Betrayal. 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:01.880 Earlier, we were joking that this conversation is kind of 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:05.200 like the Andrea Andrea True Crime Summit, but that's really 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:07.959 what it feels like. So I'm hoping we can really 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:10.880 compare notes about what it's like working in this space. 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.600 Yeah, I'd love to start off with just your background. 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:18.720 How did you get into being a true crime podcaster? 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.919 You know, I often joke that I am a recovering 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:27.440 TV executive, and so I hail from the TV space, 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:30.880 but I work for a company called Glass Entertainment Group, 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:35.440 and we specialize in reality TV and documentaries. And for 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:39.360 about seven and a half eight years, I was overseeing 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:42.759 our business department, so I was the executive in charge 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:46.680 of production, So I did all the boring things in TV, 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:48.640 which is like the budget, the financing, like. 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:49.920 All the hard stuff. 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:54.640 And my colleague Ben and I were constantly working through 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:59.560 legal deals with our development department, and we were seeing 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:06.800 great stories getting passed by TV executives and networks. When 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:10.520 one story that came across our desk, we were working 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:13.519 with Kim Goldman, who is the sister of Ron Goldman 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:17.480 who was murdered by OJ Simpson, and we were trying 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.440 to sell something in TV with her, but a lot 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:24.760 of TV networks weren't interested in the project unless OJ 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:27.639 was involved, or OJ was attached, or we could guarantee 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:30.320 an interview with OJ. And this was back when OJ 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:32.120 was still living I think he had just gotten out 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:34.400 of prison and was living in Vegas at the time. 0:02:35.200 --> 0:02:37.320 But my colleagues and I really. 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:41.480 Believe that there was a story here even without OJ's voice, 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:44.760 So we decided to make it a podcast, and instead 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.919 of telling the OJ Simpson story, we told the story 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:50.480 of people who lived it, and so that's how we 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:52.160 got started in the podcast space. 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:55.560 That's a great answer. I mean I really see like 0:02:55.919 --> 0:03:00.400 that imprint for the work you've done after for that, 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:04.600 you know, and also that just really plugs into what 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:08.720 I think is interesting about true crime stories, which is 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:11.679 the sort of long tail of them and the way 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:15.639 that they impact the people who are pulled into them. 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:16.280 Yeah. 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:20.120 So one of the things you're known for is your 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:23.720 work on Betrayal and now Betrayal Weekly. How did you 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:28.919 come to that story that was the first season of Betrayal. 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:33.520 It's all kind of related. So Jen Fason is the 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.240 subject of season one in her marriage and how the 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:40.240 marriage unraveled. But she works in television. She's in a 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:43.440 television executive producer, so we kind of are in the 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:49.320 same universe. And Jen had heard confronting oj Simpson and 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:53.200 reached out to her agent, and her agent reached out 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:56.080 to me and my colleague Ben for an initial conversation. 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:01.560 But the universe has an interesting way of working because 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.120 at this time, I was getting out of a relationship, 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:08.800 I had moved out of my boyfriend's house. I had 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.640 discovered a lot of deception, not to the magnitude that 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:15.400 Jen had, and I was kind of recovering from understanding 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:17.040 like why was I in this relationship? 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:20.640 Why was I ignoring a lot of signs? 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:22.960 Was I ignoring it or was it like, you know, 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:25.279 all of these questions that were coming to the surface. 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:27.680 So it was like I was meeting Jen at the 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:28.680 perfect time. 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:31.760 I couldn't relate to the magnitude of what Jen was 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:36.000 going through, but I knew, like as it was like 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:37.960 I don't even want to say as a woman, as 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:40.640 a woman, but as a human being, I understood the 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:44.160 pain when she pitched me her story, I understood her 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:48.600 anger and her confusion, and I felt like this emotional 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:53.920 access and I thought, if we could maybe do something 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:59.200 with that, people will relate and maybe heal. And so 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:03.880 just that relatability and that timing of it just so 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:04.760 happened to work out. 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:08.760 Yeah, that's amazing, And I think that that shows up 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:12.800 in the quality of the season and just the emotional 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:14.839 depth of it. And I'm really interested in what you 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:20.360 said about this idea of not coming from a place 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:25.560 of anger. This is a really complicated part of interviewing 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:29.960 people about these stories, right because they have every right 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:34.039 to be angry. You have every right to want to 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:38.440 even go on a sort of revenge journey, but doing 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:43.000 that on a podcast is not actually helpful to anyone, right, 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.920 It's not helpful for the listener. It's not really ethical 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.000 to sort of try and get someone in that energy, 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:51.080 even if it can be compelling. 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:51.440 In its own right. 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.880 And I have the same sort of thing when I 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:58.520 talk to folks who are often dealing with really extreme 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:03.400 betrayals and then on top of that, you know, the 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:06.240 abuse to them or abuse to their children or children 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:11.120 that they care about, and it's I think, really important 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:13.440 to make sure that someone is ready to have that conversation. 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:15.640 It was important to me, you know. I started off 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:19.920 with telling my own story in the first two seasons 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:21.839 of the show kind of bit by bit, and I 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:24.160 sort of revisited pieces of it from time to time, 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:29.920 but like I had to wait, you know, a decade 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:33.320 until I was ready to talk about it. I was like, 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:36.600 it's such a vulnerable thing, and it's such a vulnerable 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:38.640 thing to put out there and then have people react to. 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:44.080 There are so many points along this journey where getting 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:46.440 on a mic would have been the absolute wrong choice 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:49.000 for me, right, and I think there's also like the 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:52.679 expectation setting, because if you're talking about a case where 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:56.479 it's either an unsolved case, or it's a case where 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:58.960 there wasn't a good outcome, or it's a case where 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:02.599 like the person you're talking to wants some action to 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:07.120 be taken by authorities, that's not something that we can 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:08.960 make happen. 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:10.920 Can't always guarantee, right. 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:13.560 And like so I think that that's also like a 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:15.600 really tricky part of it of making sure that who 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:17.920 I'm talking to you, like, Yes, we're gonna put all 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:20.480 this out there, and I think people are going to care. 0:07:20.520 --> 0:07:21.920 I think people are going to get something out of it. 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:23.840 They're going to learn something important, They're going to relate 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.840 with this experience. I hope you get a deep personal 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:30.680 Catharsis from sharing this. But like the cavalry is unlikely 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:34.880 to mount up because unfortunately that's just not often how 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:37.720 it works, And this may not end with the answers. 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:42.560 Yeah, and that was my worry producing There and Gone, 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:45.080 which came out this past summer in twenty twenty four. 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:48.320 And I have to give iHeart a lot of credit 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:51.320 because we pitched them this story and there wasn't an 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.680 ending and we couldn't guarantee that we would find or 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:58.320 solve this case. And so you're taking a lot of risk, 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:01.240 and then the partnerships that you with distributors are also 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:04.920 taking a lot of risk for what's the payoff? You know, 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:07.800 what's the audience going to leave thinking? Are they going 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:12.960 to walk away feeling satisfied? And you know, these are 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:17.280 people like we're studying, and we're exploring stories of people 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:21.640 and their loss and their trauma and their grief, and 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:24.120 so we're not always going to get a payoff that 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:28.480 makes sense to everybody. You know, I like telling stories 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:32.560 that really show the complexity of the human experience, and 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:36.000 I think they'rein Gone is an example of that. 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:38.200 Yeah, can you can you kind of give us a 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:40.440 give us an intro to the case and how you 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:41.480 got interested in it. 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:46.280 Sure, it's the story of Richard Patron and Danielle Imbo 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:51.360 twenty years ago to thirty somethings just literally vanished off 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:55.560 of South Street in Philadelphia, which is basically like the 0:08:55.600 --> 0:09:00.320 Bourbon Street of Philadelphia, the busiest place for nightlife. They 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.000 were seen leaving a bar and then never seen again. 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:06.360 And the until this day, no one knows what happened. 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:10.839 Was in an accident? Was it murdered for hire? And 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:13.000 so I remember this because I was, I think a 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:16.400 senior in high school. And it was terrifying because one 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:19.600 of the victims his parents have a bakery that I 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:23.880 grew up going to, and both of their families look 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.520 so much like mine in different ways. They do Sunday dinner. 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.240 I come from an Italian family. We do Sunday dinner, 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.040 you know, they gamble on Sunday or for football bets, 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:35.880 like I'm wearing my Eagles jersey, like this feels like 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:38.880 this could be my own cousin. This happened too, so 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.040 it was very personal to me. And so it was 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:46.679 just this loss that kind of reverberated throughout our entire 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:52.040 community and continues because how do two people in their 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:57.240 mid thirties just vanish, just literally into thin air. And 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:03.440 when we were exploring doing the story, I thought the 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:06.719 families would be very interested, but we would struggle with 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:07.559 law enforcement. 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:10.280 But then I soon realized that. 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:15.400 The FBI really needed our help because the FBI knows 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:17.840 that the more coverage it can get of this case, 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:20.800 more people will be able to like call in and 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.520 feel like, let me just do my part. Let me 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:25.920 twenty years later. I'm just gonna do it. I'm just 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:27.600 gonna make the phone call. I'm going to say what 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:32.480 I know and be done with it. And I live 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:35.640 in this city, and there are parts of this city 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:40.000 where this crime isn't a big question mark. There are 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:41.880 parts of the city, the neighborhoods in this city where 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.000 people know exactly what happened or they feel like it's 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:45.680 a fact. They communicate it like it's affect. 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:48.199 I know who did it, I know why it's done. 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:49.800 Isn't that crazy? 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:50.720 Yeah? 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:54.200 Like, how a whole neighborhood in one city there's like 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:57.360 this understood rumor of what happened to two random people 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:01.360 that have no connection. How was the neighborhood in which 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:01.960 I lived? 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.120 So to me, it was. 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:08.880 Like, I just want to help these families. You know, 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:12.240 we didn't solve the crime yet, but there was enough 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.440 people that actually wrote into the FBI for them to 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:17.760 reopen in assign new agents. So I feel like I 0:11:17.760 --> 0:11:18.360 did my job. 0:11:18.880 --> 0:11:23.439 Hell yeah, I mean that's amazing. And I think this 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:27.760 is one of the most interesting parts of working in 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:31.440 the true crime sphere and why it's so important to 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:35.560 like take this job seriously and be really responsible. Is 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:38.000 because it does have real world impacts. And yeah, I 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:40.800 mean this question of law enforcement's like, so the case 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:42.720 that I'm working on right now for our next season 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:47.600 is one that I am hoping that some action will 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:51.080 happen on. How realistic that is, who knows, but I 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:54.319 do think that it is and can be a powerful 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:59.800 tool to getting law enforcement involved. And that can be 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:02.520 the kind of thing where you get, you know, political 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:06.520 will for a local prosecutor to actually file charges on 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:09.800 something where they might not otherwise. You can you know, 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:12.560 get people who are making those decisions at the police 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.360 department to assign some extra muscle to it. You can 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:18.079 you know, flush out some new information from the community. 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:20.920 Well, the first thing that just to interject, I think 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:22.840 one of the biggest things that I feel like we 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:29.280 both you know, betrayal, trauma and deception is one thing 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:35.600 your show covers factitious disorder, and although they're very different, 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:40.440 there's so many commonalities between people who you know, live 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:46.120 through or have a relationship with Munchausen's and Munchausen's by proxy, 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:49.560 and people who experience deception and betrayal. The topics we 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:55.960 cover on betrayal are extreme, but sadly they're not uncommon. Yeah, 0:12:56.000 --> 0:13:01.080 And in season three we really focus on and male 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.680 sexual abuse and we learn that one in six men 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:10.640 have experienced this issue. But the really scary reality is 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:15.959 it actually is probably more, but it just goes unreported 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:20.040 because of the stigma around it. And I just feel 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:26.160 like these are two taboo issues, you know, Munchausen syndrome 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:30.480 by proxy, and to take that seriously and talk about 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:34.680 it to help dismantle that stigma, it's such a large hurdle. Yeah. 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:38.360 No, that's a really good point. And we've definitely learned 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.680 a lot from the progress that has been made around 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:44.720 child sex abuse, which I think it still is underreported. 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.600 I think most people except that child sex abuse is 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:54.199 real and not rare. Yeah, certainly anybody that's informed on 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:56.440 the topic knows that, But I think that did not 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:58.480 always used to be that way, right, And it was 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:04.000 seen as this like stranger danger type of aberration, you know, 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:06.840 one in a million sort of thing that happened, and 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:10.000 then our society grappling with it sort of went through 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:14.280 some interesting hurdles along the way, a major one being 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.760 the Satanic panic, where you have all these stories about 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:21.240 you know, daycare workers and underground you know, the McMartin 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:24.280 case and all these like underground tunnels, which my take 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:28.920 on it is that that was society grappling with something 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:31.000 that we really really didn't want to look at, which 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:34.640 is child sex abuse, and that actually it was easier 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:39.760 and more comforting to think that it was satanic daycare workers, 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:44.600 because that's a problem that you can ostensibly solve. But 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.320 I think it's more comforting to think that there's some 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.680 evil system that you can kind of shut down than 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:53.880 it is to confront the reality, which is that this 0:14:54.040 --> 0:15:00.120 is boy scout leaders, priests, coaches, dads, uncles who are 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:02.480 doing this right. So it's most likely to be someone 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.200 that that child knows, and it's not going to be 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:09.000 someone who is an obvious creep all the time. And 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.560 it's so similar with Munchausen. And that's where we get 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:15.280 into kind of the hullabaloo that happened around the Maya 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:18.360 Kwalski case with the film Take Care of Maya and 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:20.840 a lot of the coverage that really followed in lockstep 0:15:20.880 --> 0:15:23.560 with that, where they presented it as a medical kidnapping case. 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.560 Medical kidnapping is our satanic panic. Essentially, it's like, you 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:32.440 know this idea that doctors are just separating families, right, Like, 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:35.400 doctors don't make those decisions. Doctors evaluate abuse. It's a 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:39.920 legitimate subspecialty. There's just so much disinformation around that. And 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:42.880 the Maya Kwalski case was sort of the most high 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:46.120 profile one. But I think that there's a similar dynamic 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:49.520 going on there, and certainly with Munchausen biproxy, it's not 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.400 a one in a million thing. I think the behavior 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:54.440 is a longest spectrum, but I think it's far more 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:57.520 common and getting worse because of social media, because of 0:15:57.560 --> 0:15:59.600 which I would assume actually if some of the behaviors 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:01.680 that I'll talk about on betrayal in this sort of 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:03.720 more male deception and cheating and that kind of thing, 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:06.040 like you're talking to Spencer Heir in case, like social 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:11.600 media has given people unfettered and unlimited access to attention, 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:14.880 and you know, I think it was doctor Romani says 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:19.160 in the TV series like, Oh, that's the dangerous combination, right, 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:22.640 attention seeking plus lack of empathy. I mean that is 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:26.240 exactly how you describe Munchausen biproxy behaviors. And so I 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.680 think there's every reason to believe that it's getting worse, 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:31.640 and that is a scary world to live in. I 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:32.960 hate to be the one to break this to you, 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.960 but like the world is not what you thought. That 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.800 mom of the sick child, who's raising money on GoFundMe 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:44.920 and seems like the most heroic mother you've ever met, 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:48.360 could be the scariest person you've ever met. And so 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:53.480 I think that's why these conspiracy theories around medical kidnapping 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:57.320 get traction because the reporting on it is very thin. 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:01.000 Child abuse professionals do not make good money. Child abuse 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:05.280 pediatrics is a highly trained and not well paid some specialty. 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:08.439 They get trashed in the media, they get accused of 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:11.280 snatching babies. I mean, it's not for the faint of heart. 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:14.440 And also just like that work, like doing that frontline 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:16.720 work of rushing to the hospital to see a child 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:20.879 that's been abused is obviously emotionally grueling work. There isn't 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:23.359 any scenario where you could make it make sense that 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:26.600 doctors just want to do that. It's a nightmare for 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:28.959 the hospitals. The hospitals can get sued, you know, it's 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:32.359 like there's no motivation. But I think the reason those 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:36.360 stories still take off in the media. Is that people's 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:41.119 discomfort around the reality of this abuse is so so deep. 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:59.280 Something that we're constantly confronting in true crime is having 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.600 to tell these hyperbolic versions of true crime stories when 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:06.320 in reality, the more relatable and important ones are the 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:09.399 ones that are kind of in the every day I 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:13.280 remember when we were covering Ashley Linton's case in Riverton, 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:18.280 Utah for Betrayal season two, you reached out to IKAC, 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:22.960 which is in Internet Crimes Against Children's task Force that 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:26.720 every state has, and I remember one of the task 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:31.560 force members asked, why are you covering this case like 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:35.560 I deal with, you know, perpetrators that are ten times 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:41.280 worse than Jason Linton. Why this one? And my response was, 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:47.320 I don't want the hyperbolic version see Sam case. You know, 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:50.640 I want to meet people in a very average, everyday 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:55.760 story because that's actually what's happening. And so I feel 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.200 like that's the same for a lot of these mothers 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:01.080 who are if they're on the new it's like this 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:04.560 monster of a mother that did this, and it's like, 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:08.119 you know, we have to hear about the extremes instead 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.280 of leaning into the reality of what's happening. 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:15.359 Yeah, I mean I became a media outlet because I 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:17.840 was so fed up with the way that media was 0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:21.080 covering this case, right. And it's been interesting over the 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.760 last few years, as I've kind of jumped first, I 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:27.840 guess I've noticed that awareness is increasing, especially because of 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.000 the Gypsy ros blanterd case, which was so high profile. 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:32.439 I do think that there's more of a conversation happening 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:34.280 than there was five years ago. But you know, there 0:19:34.359 --> 0:19:37.080 was like so much reticence to talking about it. Like 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:38.879 I remember when my novel came out, and like I 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.600 had written like an essay for it and that got 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:43.439 killed at the last minute, and there was just like 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:45.119 a lot of like no, no, no, no no. If 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:47.879 there's not a conviction, you can't talk about it. And 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:50.040 I was like, if we're not talking about the cases 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:54.600 where there aren't convictions, then we're not talking about the problem, right, 0:19:55.080 --> 0:20:00.600 Like when you get into the extremes and allow people 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:03.840 to put it at arm's length, that person is a monster, 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.480 that person is a psychopath, that like I would see 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:10.880 coming and this would never happen to me, and that's 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:13.600 not reality. And I think that was why for me 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:15.760 it was so important to talk about my own experience 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:19.040 because the other thing that we do with perpetrators of crimes, 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:22.280 especially if it's something where it just feels so like deeply, deeply, 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:26.000 deeply wrong, we often say, oh, well, that person must 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:28.239 have had a horrible child, that person must have been 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:30.879 abused as a child. There must be some like dots 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:33.320 I can connect. And I think that that's part of 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:37.000 the let me tell myself a story about this that 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:40.040 makes me feel safe, right where, like, as long as 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:42.800 XYZ doesn't happen in my family, we won't end up 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:45.520 with one of these perpetrators in our family. And that's 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:47.520 just not the case, right. I mean, my sister did 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:52.399 not by anybody else's you know, nobody else witnessed anything 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:56.399 dramatic happening to her. You were not raised an abusive household. Like, 0:20:57.000 --> 0:20:59.840 it's not something where oh there's some straight line that 0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:02.480 you can draw. And I think that's really uncomfortable for people. 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:07.040 I think people really want to believe that something awful 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:10.200 has to happen to a person to make them like this, 0:21:10.840 --> 0:21:13.919 and I don't think that's true. I think it is 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:19.800 that combination of lack of empathy and need for attention 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:24.120 that really can supercharge these behaviors totally. 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:27.800 I think one of the things that I also felt 0:21:27.880 --> 0:21:31.960 was really relatable. And the circumstances are so different, but 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:37.480 just knowing your sister's story and having to go in 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:42.360 front of the judge in family court, like you're dealing 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:48.120 with family court and criminal court are two separate things. 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:53.119 And the issues that I've seen a lot of the 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:56.520 women that I deal with on betrayal having to navigate 0:21:57.240 --> 0:22:00.600 the criminal side and once that's over and you know, 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:05.000 the father of their children are released, then they're dealing 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:08.400 with family court either in their divorce or child support 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:14.400 or dealing with visitation. It is a whole other ball 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:19.680 of wax where parents have a ton of rights rightfully so, 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:22.040 but they're in situations. 0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:23.720 Where kids are at risk. 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:27.560 It's a really scary system because they are two separate entities. 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:30.360 Yeah, and I think that that's something that the vagaries 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:32.760 of that like really is lost on people that have 0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:36.040 not had to interact with these systems. And I think 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:38.440 people here and a lot of this again when I'm 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:40.240 talking about like you know, my Kicks and Bogs work 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:43.280 for NBC and his whole Duno harm series, like a 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:47.480 lot of this is I think intentionally created a confusion 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:52.399 where it'll be like courts said, doctors disagree, Like courts said, 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:55.119 you know, uh, this and that right, and you're like, okay, 0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:58.400 which court under what circumstances like give me more information? 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:01.880 Right yep, And everything goes to the family court first 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:05.600 because those are less you know, those investigations take less 0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:07.480 time than the criminal investigation. So we end up in 0:23:07.520 --> 0:23:10.199 a lot of situations where the family court gives the 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:15.040 children back during an active criminal investigation, which just I 0:23:15.080 --> 0:23:20.200 think sounds insane, but that happens all the time. Likewise, 0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:23.399 you know, there's this thing of like, well, doctors at 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:26.239 this hospital said this, but other doctors disagree, without ever 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:29.240 mentioning that those other doctors are people who were hired 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:33.320