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Speaker 1: Pushkin. So Elvis Costello, welcome to Broken Record.

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Speaker 2: Good to be here.

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Speaker 1: And you are going to talk about your new release

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Speaker 1: of your old release. So tell me what it is.

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Speaker 3: It is the 49th anniversary set presenting My Aim is True,

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Speaker 3: my first record, recorded over the back end of 1976

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Speaker 3: in the first, you know, the first few days of 1977,

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Speaker 3: released in 1977. And other recordings spread over.

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Speaker 2: Four other discs.

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Speaker 3: They are The Blueprint, which is a collection of acoustic

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Speaker 3: guitar performances, songs I wrote in 1975, half of which

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Speaker 3: I sort of held to myself for fear that they

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Speaker 3: maybe revealed my, you know, my, stumbling steps to get

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Speaker 3: to a style I mean they're to my mind at

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Speaker 3: the time I put them away in a drawer because

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Speaker 3: they sounded too much like the people I I liked

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Speaker 3: when I listen to them now I just hear me

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Speaker 3: and I'm you can have a vague sense of somebody

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Speaker 3: I might have heard and songs I tried to write

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Speaker 3: in a different style entirely than the one that informs

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Speaker 3: Mime is True and then of course the demos which

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Speaker 3: you know you can see that coming in coming into

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Speaker 3: focus some recordings I made Prior to that, which were

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Speaker 3: my first attempts to make any recordings with a band.

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Speaker 3: And then the formation of The Attractions, who were put

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Speaker 3: together to, as it were, promote or at least play

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Speaker 3: the music from Miami's True, because the band that played

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Speaker 3: on that album were an American group, Clover, who were

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Speaker 3: not available to me after the recording of the record.

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Speaker 2: They had their own career.

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Speaker 1: You're stumbling attempts to find a style. And I do

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Speaker 1: want to talk about how you developed that style I

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Speaker 1: remember seeing your album when it was first in the

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Speaker 1: record store. And there are artists, I think probably Springsteen's

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Speaker 1: an example, where you follow them along as they develop

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Speaker 1: their style. You were one of those artists for me

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Speaker 1: who seemed to emerge fully formed with that first album.

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Speaker 1: You had the attitude, you had the glasses, you had

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Speaker 1: the great lyrics. So to me, going through this record

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Speaker 1: and this package was fascinating because it's so interesting to

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Speaker 1: see how that came about.

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Speaker 3: You know, I sort of started writing songs when I

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Speaker 3: was about 14, 15 maybe, played in public around that

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Speaker 3: time for the first time, and then, you know, did

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Speaker 3: all the usual things of learning, playing other people's music.

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Speaker 3: I joined a band in Liverpool that immediately became a

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Speaker 3: duo because we realized the singer couldn't sing at the

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Speaker 3: bass player, went to university, which is a very typical

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Speaker 3: teenage band experience.

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Speaker 2: And we carried on for a year or more.

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Speaker 3: And I realized that I had to return to London

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Speaker 3: where I had been born. My parents are from Merseyside.

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Speaker 3: And so my first experiences of even running music evenings

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Speaker 3: were going against the grain of the folk music of Liverpool,

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Speaker 3: which was mostly traditional. And we were trying to sing

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Speaker 3: our own songs and songs by people we liked who

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Speaker 3: were mostly Californian acoustic musicians. And the birds and the

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Speaker 3: band and things like that. I went to London and

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Speaker 3: the beginning of the pub rock scene as it came

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Speaker 3: to be known, although it was never called that by

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Speaker 3: the participants, it was simply bands taking the music directly

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Speaker 3: to the audience rather than going on to the big

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Speaker 3: glamorous stage with dry ice and lame pants. They were

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Speaker 3: just walking up in their day clothes and playing music

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Speaker 3: directly to an audience that could buy a ticket at

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Speaker 3: the door. And Nick Lowe was in a band, Princey Schwartz,

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Speaker 3: who I loved. And I had met Nick when Princey's

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Speaker 3: came to, um, the cabin. I'd met him in the

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Speaker 3: pub opposite the cabin. I got talking with him and

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Speaker 3: then I turned, then I became the guy that would

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Speaker 3: turn up at their gigs and ask him questions. You know,

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Speaker 3: I was trying to find my way. I wasn't asking

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Speaker 3: for favors. I was just asking advice about things, about

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Speaker 3: songwriting and that. I don't remember what our conversations were

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Speaker 3: really about. It was just, I thought he was cool and,

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Speaker 3: you know, we hung out. And, uh, I put a

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Speaker 3: band together for a little while, which were really just

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Speaker 3: a collection of people who happened to play the instruments

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Speaker 3: that made up a band. We didn't really have any

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Speaker 3: other recommendations for being a group than that. And we

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Speaker 3: stumbled around playing a few shows and field by songs.

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Speaker 3: And we took the example of Ebenezer Schwartz in picking

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Speaker 3: particularly obscure songs from American R & B repertoire to

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Speaker 3: put in our set. And the only song that people

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Speaker 3: recognized was bob dylan's knocking on heaven's door which was

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Speaker 3: then in the charts everything else we played was like

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Speaker 3: willfully obscure including my songs which were you know they

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Speaker 3: were the first steps of course that kind of ran

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Speaker 3: out of steam after we did a one recording session

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Speaker 3: and i i went back to that studio with my

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Speaker 3: acoustic guitar a few months later dave robinson was running

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Speaker 3: the studio over a pub which in itself had a

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Speaker 3: basement venue the open anchor and he let me just

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Speaker 3: play every song I had while he was twiddling the dials.

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Speaker 3: He was really working still on the studio. And I

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Speaker 3: think Dire Straits may have done their demos there.

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Speaker 2: I believe they did.

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Speaker 3: And Graham Parker's first record was recorded there. So I

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Speaker 3: just played every song that I had. I'd bought Bruce

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Speaker 3: Springsteen's first record when I lived in Liverpool. I'd listened

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Speaker 3: to that record back to back. And I had one

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Speaker 3: song that sort of sounded like it was, to me,

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Speaker 3: it sounded like I'd me trying to write like that.

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Speaker 3: Another couple of songs sounded like I'd heard Van Morrison

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Speaker 3: around the time of his Bannon Street Choir.

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Speaker 2: All these ideas in my head was I was.

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Speaker 3: Trying on those, as I put in the liner notes,

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Speaker 3: it's like a man trying on hats, you know, does

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Speaker 3: this suit me? And I put those songs away, and

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Speaker 3: then I proceeded on to a style of writing which

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Speaker 3: was informed by records that I loved, particularly Randy Newman's records,

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Speaker 3: but also including Dr. John's Gumbo and Van Dyke Park's records.

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Speaker 3: So they would be literally Americana, not the Americana music

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Speaker 3: of today, but they had a lot of American references

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Speaker 3: and a lot of arcane references. And I was really

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Speaker 3: trying to work out how I could sing about the

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Speaker 3: way I felt, 21, married with a son, on living

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Speaker 3: in the suburbs where nothing in the world I was

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Speaker 3: wanting to enter was within my reach. I had no

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Speaker 3: way to make myself into a suitable face for pop music.

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Speaker 3: And even the scene that was beginning to emerge in 75,

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Speaker 3: I'd had a go at being in it. And those

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Speaker 3: same venues were the venues in which punk began. And

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Speaker 3: I wasn't in tune with that musically. So I proceeded

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Speaker 3: to write these songs that were willfully styled to sound

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Speaker 3: as if they'd been found in a trunk in 1927.

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Speaker 3: And that's the way I wrote Jump Up and Wave

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Speaker 3: a White Flag and a few of the songs that

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Speaker 3: are on this collection. They were experiments of writing songs

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Speaker 3: that were really from the heart.

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Speaker 2: And if you actually read the.

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Speaker 3: Lyrics of Poison Moon, it really talks about being like

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Speaker 3: an outsider. And I didn't know harmony in any formal sense.

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Speaker 3: So everything was just instinctive. Everything was just All my

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Speaker 3: musical learning was from records. I never played a scale

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Speaker 3: in my life. I can't read music.

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Speaker 1: You can to this day?

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Speaker 3: I can write it down and I can orchestrate, but

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Speaker 3: I can't sight-read music back because I never trained my

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Speaker 3: eye to my hand, which you have to do, obviously,

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Speaker 3: as a piano player or as another kind of formal instrumentalist.

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Speaker 3: So I saw that Nick Lowe had released a single

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Speaker 3: and there was this new label, I'd had this demo tape,

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Speaker 3: which I'd made in my bedroom, sent back to me

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Speaker 3: by five, six, seven publishers or record companies that didn't

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Speaker 3: see anything in it at all. And I left my

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Speaker 3: tape there at this little office, never expecting to hear

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Speaker 3: anything about it. And I got a call saying, we

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Speaker 3: want to talk to you. And within a month, I

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Speaker 3: was in the studio with Nick producing, playing bass. And

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Speaker 3: I was introduced to John McPhee and Mickey Shine from Clover,

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Speaker 3: whose records I actually owned. They were pretty obscure. They

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Speaker 3: were on Fantasy, two albums on Fantasy. They had a

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Speaker 3: new lineup with a different drummer from the original band,

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Speaker 3: with a different keyboard player, or I think a keyboard

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Speaker 3: player at all, Sean Hopper. And of course, they had

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Speaker 3: two singers, the original singer, Alex Cole, and Huey Lewis,

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Speaker 3: who was kind of the rabble rouser second lead singer.

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Speaker 3: And I was put into the studio initially just with

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Speaker 3: two members, with Nick playing bass and We cut Mystery Dance,

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Speaker 3: which was, you know, a very simple rock and roll song.

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Speaker 3: And I said I didn't want it to sound like

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Speaker 3: a pastiche. I said I want to play it all downstrokes,

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Speaker 3: you know, so that it was kind of, I'd heard

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Speaker 3: the Ramones by then and I'd heard the Modern Lovers.

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Speaker 3: I thought it needed to be more, actually less swinging

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Speaker 3: in some ways, you know.

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Speaker 1: What's interesting, one thing that, re-listening to this album, is

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Speaker 1: I realized how much of it really had swing to it.

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Speaker 3: Oh.

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Speaker 1: Which is not what you did particularly with the attractions.

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Speaker 3: That's very good that you say that because it saves

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Speaker 3: me from saying it seemed like I'm wise after the fact.

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Speaker 3: But one of the reasons I was excited to meet

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Speaker 3: John McPhee was not just that I had these two

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Speaker 3: records which they'd made. It would have been modest they

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Speaker 3: hadn't made much kind of penetration, they were cult records

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Speaker 3: to say the least. He played on Van Morrison's Tupelo

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Speaker 3: Honey and I wasn't a psychedelic Van Morrison fan in

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Speaker 3: that it took me a while to get to Astral Weeks,

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Speaker 3: but from Moondance on, particularly Bannon Street Choir and Tupelo Honey,

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Speaker 3: These records just made me crazy. And I just wanted

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Speaker 3: to do that. And to have John, who could play

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Speaker 3: pedal steel as well as guitar, but more importantly, Johnny Shambodi,

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Speaker 3: the bass player, who was the most swinging bass player

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Speaker 3: I played with other than Jerry Sheff, who was in

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Speaker 3: the TCB band, later on. But John brought this thing.

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Speaker 3: And I had these models for songs, some of which

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Speaker 3: I'd been working on for a couple of years. And

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Speaker 3: in my head, That figure that's Sneaky Feelings, if you

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Speaker 3: play it slower, it's like... You ain't living till you're loving.

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Speaker 3: In my mind, that's what we were playing, but I

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Speaker 3: couldn't relax enough to be like, and I couldn't sing

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Speaker 3: like Marvin Gaye, as I just proved. I'm not warmed

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Speaker 3: up for singing, but I'm just illustrating. That in my mind,

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Speaker 3: that was the music we were playing. We were playing

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Speaker 3: like Marvin or like the Motown band. But of course,

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Speaker 3: I never mentioned any of that to the global players.

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Speaker 3: I just let them find it because I had no

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Speaker 3: experience of directing musicians of any caliber.

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Speaker 2: And I thought, well, they know what they're doing. These

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Speaker 2: are guys that have already recorded.

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Speaker 3: And everything they played sounded great because not only do

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Speaker 3: you hear these songs being interpreted in a number of

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Speaker 3: different ways.

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Speaker 3: Starting with Clover, then the attractions taking them over, and

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Speaker 3: playing quite faithful to that original model, I have to say,

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Speaker 3: for the first 20 minutes. And then, you know, six

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Speaker 3: or seven months later, you can't even recognize the songs,

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Speaker 3: much less the people playing them. It's a completely different

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Speaker 3: type of music. And then at the end, reunited with Clover,

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Speaker 3: you know, 30 years after we made Miami's True.

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Speaker 2: And guess what?

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Speaker 3: When we went to rehearsals, I said to Pete Thomas,

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Speaker 3: who was deputizing as the drummer, I said, it's the tempo, right?

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Speaker 3: He said, it's the tempo from the record. I said, well,

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Speaker 3: we've never played it like that. He said, I know,

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Speaker 3: but trust it.

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Speaker 2: And we did. And guess what? Back came that swing

220
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Speaker 2: and feel.

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Speaker 3: So sometimes that first information that you get about music,

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Speaker 3: the attempts to copy aren't as important as the leap

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Speaker 3: into the dark often that you make in finding your

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Speaker 3: own voice. And frankly, for me, it was literally about

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Speaker 3: being able to be in a room. Because when I

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Speaker 3: tried to play those intimate songs I was talking about earlier,

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Speaker 3: I would write them at home and they would sound

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Speaker 3: attractive to me. And then I'd take them to a

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Speaker 3: folk club where I was getting booked in 75 as

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Speaker 3: in 76. I'd play down the bill from people I

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Speaker 3: wouldn't be headlining. And when I played those more introspective songs,

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Speaker 3: my people just talked over them. because I didn't have

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Speaker 3: the relationship with the audience that they trusted me. All

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Speaker 3: the people whose music I was listening to at that time,

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Speaker 3: whether it be Randy Newman or Joni Mitchell or John Prine,

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Speaker 3: of course, it established that relationship that allowed them to

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Speaker 3: sing intimately and didn't need to speak out and shout.

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Speaker 2: I just need to speak up for myself.

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Speaker 3: And then I did. And that's my mistrue. And to

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Speaker 3: be really honest, a handful of those songs are really

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Speaker 3: deeply felt. And a couple of them are kind of

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Speaker 3: dashed off. kind of as the sort of things that

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Speaker 3: serve me well to kind of be in that moment.

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Speaker 3: They don't bear too much scrutiny. They sound good as records,

245
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Speaker 3: but they don't sound, you know, you would never read

246
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Speaker 3: the lyrics out and say, hey, listen to this.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're going to put a lot of scrutiny on them,

248
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Speaker 1: see how much they can take. Talking about how you

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Speaker 1: absorb music, how you relearned it, it's reminding me of

250
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Speaker 1: a story from your book, which I loved, your father

251
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Speaker 1: was a musician. He was a big band musician. You

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Speaker 1: share that with Paul McCartney and Paul Simon.

253
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Speaker 2: Whose fathers were all.

254
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Speaker 3: Very different sort of experiences, of course. My father was

255
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Speaker 3: originally wanted to be a bebop trumpet player. He came

256
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Speaker 3: out of the RAF and he played the trumpet and

257
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Speaker 3: like most everybody else, adored Louis Armstrong. And then he

258
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Speaker 3: heard Dizzy Gillespie and he wanted to play that new

259
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Speaker 3: music and got in a lot of trouble and on

260
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Speaker 3: Merseyside trying to play that music.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how good it was because there's no recordings.

262
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Speaker 2: But I mean, that was his ambition.

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Speaker 3: And when my folks went to live in London in

264
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Speaker 3: about 1950, it was my father's idea to get into

265
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Speaker 3: what was then called modern jazz scene. And when I

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Speaker 3: was born, he took the pragmatic role and took a

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Speaker 3: job as a trumpet vocalist and ended up being one

268
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Speaker 3: of the featured singers and probably the best known and

269
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Speaker 3: most successful singer dance band. They were a dance band

270
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Speaker 3: on the Glenn Miller model. So the kind of music

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Speaker 3: which people still really loved from the Second World War times,

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Speaker 3: because Glenn.

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Speaker 2: Miller was a heroic figure in England.

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Speaker 3: My father then just had to sing what was put

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Speaker 3: in front of him. He had to sing the hits

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Speaker 3: of the day. And then by the time I became

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Speaker 3: more aware of what it was he did, it would

278
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Speaker 3: have been around 1963, they had a radio show that

279
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Speaker 3: was a lunchtime radio show which was literally called the

280
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Speaker 3: Joe Lost Pop Show.

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Speaker 1: There's a wonderful scene where you are watching your father

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Speaker 1: and he's got a very early, I'm not sure if

283
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Speaker 1: it was a tape or it was a single, of

284
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Speaker 1: Please Please Me.

285
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Speaker 2: Oh, it was a 45.

286
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Speaker 3: They would be sent A labels, you know, which were

287
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Speaker 3: overprinted with an A so the DJ knew which side

288
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Speaker 3: to play. Or sometimes even acetates from Dick James, from

289
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Speaker 3: Northern Songs. And so all the records on my record

290
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Speaker 3: shelf that are A-labels or acetates are songs my father

291
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Speaker 3: sang on the radio. As strange as it might be

292
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Speaker 3: that they include my generation and reach out and I'll

293
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Speaker 3: be there and see Emily play by the Pink Floyd.

294
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Speaker 3: It's still the only Pink Floyd song I can stand

295
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Speaker 3: to hear. But that's just me. But that's what it was.

296
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Speaker 3: It was a very odd introduction into the mechanics of

297
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Speaker 3: learning songs because I heard my father doing it repeatedly.

298
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Speaker 1: He.

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Speaker 3: Wired a deck of Decalium, which was one of the

300
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Speaker 3: first portable record players up. So the arm would just

301
00:16:39,766 --> 00:16:42,346
Speaker 3: keep coming back onto the record rather than dropping another

302
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Speaker 3: record in the stack. And he would listen to the

303
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Speaker 3: record until he'd memorized it. He usually had sheet music

304
00:16:47,526 --> 00:16:49,786
Speaker 3: as well or a lyric sheet. But a lot of

305
00:16:49,826 --> 00:16:53,486
Speaker 3: these songs were harmonically quite simple. But they still required

306
00:16:53,526 --> 00:16:55,316
Speaker 3: him to learn them, to sing them live. And he

307
00:16:55,366 --> 00:16:56,936
Speaker 3: only had a few days to learn them. He was

308
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Speaker 3: learning five or six songs a week.

309
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Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

310
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Speaker 2: And also recording them as well.

311
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Speaker 3: Sometimes he would go and do sessions, which was like

312
00:17:04,836 --> 00:17:07,896
Speaker 3: a little bit of pin money, as they say. You know,

313
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Speaker 3: it was like off-the-books money where he would go and

314
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Speaker 3: record cover versions of the same songs for producers that

315
00:17:14,196 --> 00:17:17,816
Speaker 3: issued budget records of this. So there was this whole

316
00:17:17,886 --> 00:17:25,326
Speaker 3: industry of songwriting, publisher, covers, radio performance. That's what I

317
00:17:25,366 --> 00:17:28,676
Speaker 3: grew up with, that insight into it. Strangely enough, I

318
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Speaker 3: never picked up an instrument. I never was moved to learn.

319
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Speaker 3: I didn't take piano lessons. I think I took violin

320
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Speaker 3: lessons for a week until they told me stop doing that.

321
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Speaker 3: The usual horrifying things with the recorder that they make

322
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Speaker 3: children go through. But I had a guitar from the

323
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Speaker 3: time I was about nine, I think, that was bought

324
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Speaker 3: as a souvenir from a trip to Spain. But I

325
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Speaker 3: never learned to play it until I was 14 or something.

326
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Speaker 1: And when did the songwriting start?

327
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Speaker 2: Almost right away. I didn't learn three chord tricks.

328
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Speaker 3: I learned the song Man of the World by Fleetwood Mac,

329
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Speaker 3: which I think is 1968.

330
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Speaker 2: So I would have been 14.

331
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Speaker 3: I have no idea why it was that song because

332
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Speaker 3: it's a very complicated song for a novice.

333
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Speaker 2: And I patiently, a.

334
00:18:18,676 --> 00:18:21,946
Speaker 3: Lad who I didn't really know played the guitar. He

335
00:18:21,966 --> 00:18:24,486
Speaker 3: was a couple of years older than us. and heard

336
00:18:24,526 --> 00:18:26,066
Speaker 3: that I liked that song, and he gave me a

337
00:18:26,086 --> 00:18:27,836
Speaker 3: piece of paper with the words on it, with the

338
00:18:27,896 --> 00:18:30,796
Speaker 3: chord symbols over it. I wish I had it, you know,

339
00:18:30,816 --> 00:18:34,436
Speaker 3: the actual chord diagrams, not just the names of the chords.

340
00:18:35,396 --> 00:18:38,656
Speaker 3: And so I painstakingly learned how to play this song.

341
00:18:38,696 --> 00:18:41,376
Speaker 3: It took me ages, you know, it took me months.

342
00:18:42,536 --> 00:18:47,306
Speaker 3: And the unlocking of that harmonic labyrinth, frankly, compared with

343
00:18:47,346 --> 00:18:51,006
Speaker 3: most three-chord songs, made other songs seem really easy to learn.

344
00:18:51,066 --> 00:18:55,576
Speaker 3: And I... quickly learnt a lot of other songs. I

345
00:18:55,636 --> 00:18:58,996
Speaker 3: heard all these other things I couldn't play. But these

346
00:18:59,136 --> 00:19:01,756
Speaker 3: few songs I could play and I immediately started writing

347
00:19:01,856 --> 00:19:04,316
Speaker 3: and there was an opportunity to play in public at

348
00:19:04,356 --> 00:19:08,096
Speaker 3: a local church basement that had a weekly folk club

349
00:19:08,166 --> 00:19:10,946
Speaker 3: and I went down there a few weeks and saw

350
00:19:10,986 --> 00:19:14,366
Speaker 3: a few artists and saw that people put their name

351
00:19:14,406 --> 00:19:17,426
Speaker 3: down as to be what they call floor singers, like

352
00:19:17,486 --> 00:19:20,586
Speaker 3: open mic singers. I happened to put my name down

353
00:19:20,666 --> 00:19:22,366
Speaker 3: and went up there and sang my one song in

354
00:19:22,566 --> 00:19:25,346
Speaker 3: E minor and made a terrible job of it. You know,

355
00:19:25,366 --> 00:19:28,216
Speaker 3: I was really mortified, like didn't do that for a while.

356
00:19:28,276 --> 00:19:30,776
Speaker 3: And then I suppose the next year I went to

357
00:19:30,816 --> 00:19:34,096
Speaker 3: live in Liverpool and there was more of a music

358
00:19:34,616 --> 00:19:38,356
Speaker 3: club scene there, which took a little penetration because they

359
00:19:38,376 --> 00:19:41,476
Speaker 3: didn't really want to hear original songs. Me and my partner,

360
00:19:41,496 --> 00:19:46,066
Speaker 3: Alan Mays, we used to end up having to Negotiate

361
00:19:46,086 --> 00:19:48,906
Speaker 3: with club owners to open up a music night on

362
00:19:48,946 --> 00:19:50,826
Speaker 3: a Tuesday night when they might not have even bothered

363
00:19:50,846 --> 00:19:52,366
Speaker 3: to turn the lights on at all, you know.

364
00:19:53,066 --> 00:19:55,066
Speaker 1: Did you it's going to sound like an odd question

365
00:19:55,206 --> 00:19:57,126
Speaker 1: but did you like being on stage.

366
00:19:57,396 --> 00:20:02,516
Speaker 3: No never no Alan was the much more confident he

367
00:20:02,536 --> 00:20:04,536
Speaker 3: was better looking than me and he was a better

368
00:20:04,576 --> 00:20:08,796
Speaker 3: guitar player and the only thing that he would say

369
00:20:08,876 --> 00:20:11,696
Speaker 3: and I'm is that we tried to write songs together

370
00:20:11,776 --> 00:20:14,016
Speaker 3: and I said it was impossible because I would finish

371
00:20:14,036 --> 00:20:16,416
Speaker 3: them before I had the idea that was the only

372
00:20:16,476 --> 00:20:20,436
Speaker 3: thing in which I was you know more Evidently, I'd

373
00:20:20,456 --> 00:20:23,896
Speaker 3: say it's gifted, but I had capability. And they were

374
00:20:23,956 --> 00:20:27,776
Speaker 3: really halting sort of compositions, but I wrote faster than him.

375
00:20:28,356 --> 00:20:29,596
Speaker 2: I was able to complete the thought.

376
00:20:30,756 --> 00:20:35,176
Speaker 3: And we used to sing mostly other people's material, but again,

377
00:20:35,236 --> 00:20:38,316
Speaker 3: nothing from the charts. We were singing mostly Californian music,

378
00:20:39,836 --> 00:20:42,576
Speaker 3: sung by the band, sung by the birds, you know.

379
00:20:43,136 --> 00:20:45,836
Speaker 1: Your love of Joni Mitchell is well known, but it

380
00:20:45,876 --> 00:20:48,556
Speaker 1: surprised me that you liked so many of those California bands.

381
00:20:49,466 --> 00:20:52,366
Speaker 1: It seems so different to me from your own work.

382
00:20:52,666 --> 00:20:54,806
Speaker 3: Oh, with Joanie, it's an exceptional thing as I came

383
00:20:54,846 --> 00:20:59,166
Speaker 3: to understand it more and actually followed her development as

384
00:20:59,186 --> 00:21:02,406
Speaker 3: a musician album by album. A friend of mine and

385
00:21:02,526 --> 00:21:05,476
Speaker 3: I went to Manchester because the show, a lot of

386
00:21:05,506 --> 00:21:07,766
Speaker 3: tourists didn't come to Liverpool in those days. Liverpool was quite,

387
00:21:08,786 --> 00:21:11,336
Speaker 3: you know, it wasn't the richest town. And we'd go

388
00:21:11,356 --> 00:21:14,316
Speaker 3: to Manchester to see people play. And we went to

389
00:21:14,356 --> 00:21:18,476
Speaker 3: see Joanie, I think the Free Trade Hall maybe, And

390
00:21:18,796 --> 00:21:21,356
Speaker 3: she played the songs from Blue. That was a couple

391
00:21:21,376 --> 00:21:23,456
Speaker 3: of months before the record came out, which was something

392
00:21:23,476 --> 00:21:26,576
Speaker 3: that used to happen then because people couldn't so easily,

393
00:21:26,596 --> 00:21:29,236
Speaker 3: you know, they couldn't capture it on their phone and

394
00:21:29,296 --> 00:21:33,626
Speaker 3: put it online. So artists would debut songs in concert first.

395
00:21:34,246 --> 00:21:37,086
Speaker 3: But Joanie, you can imagine her singing River and Case

396
00:21:37,126 --> 00:21:40,066
Speaker 3: of You. And then you've got to sort of memorize

397
00:21:40,106 --> 00:21:43,456
Speaker 3: them on one hearing. and have the feeling of them

398
00:21:43,496 --> 00:21:45,016
Speaker 3: and the playing. And then you went and sat and

399
00:21:45,056 --> 00:21:46,916
Speaker 3: we listened. We went and bought the record the day

400
00:21:46,956 --> 00:21:49,936
Speaker 3: it came out and sat at Tony's house and listened

401
00:21:49,976 --> 00:21:52,636
Speaker 3: to it for a whole day, like a whole day

402
00:21:52,656 --> 00:21:53,076
Speaker 3: and night.

403
00:21:54,146 --> 00:21:57,166
Speaker 2: We just listened to it. So it went in deep.

404
00:21:58,186 --> 00:22:00,726
Speaker 3: But when you get to the next few records, the

405
00:22:00,766 --> 00:22:02,986
Speaker 3: harmony gets even more intricate and she started.

406
00:22:02,786 --> 00:22:04,246
Speaker 2: To introduce other musicians.

407
00:22:05,866 --> 00:22:08,246
Speaker 3: I know enough about it now that some of those

408
00:22:08,286 --> 00:22:10,566
Speaker 3: musicians thought they knew better than her what the chords were.

409
00:22:11,376 --> 00:22:14,396
Speaker 3: They didn't actually. Her chords were more interesting because they

410
00:22:14,416 --> 00:22:17,916
Speaker 3: were more unusual. Sometimes the jazz musicians would adjust it

411
00:22:17,956 --> 00:22:20,216
Speaker 3: to what they thought she was playing. But what she

412
00:22:20,236 --> 00:22:25,416
Speaker 3: was actually playing was much more original. That's how you

413
00:22:25,436 --> 00:22:29,876
Speaker 3: get to Chord and Spark and particularly Hissing on Summer Alarms.

414
00:22:29,976 --> 00:22:33,896
Speaker 3: And that music is just, there's still nothing like it.

415
00:22:34,076 --> 00:22:36,256
Speaker 3: The only thing that's like it a little bit is Prince.

416
00:22:37,176 --> 00:22:40,176
Speaker 3: And that's why I think he admired her and she

417
00:22:40,216 --> 00:22:42,946
Speaker 3: admired him. This is the only thing that sort of

418
00:22:42,966 --> 00:22:44,526
Speaker 3: has that kind of imagination.

419
00:22:47,966 --> 00:22:52,206
Speaker 1: There's a wonderful clip on YouTube from a party at

420
00:22:52,246 --> 00:22:55,916
Speaker 1: Gordon Lightfoot's house during the Roll of Thunder tour.

421
00:22:56,356 --> 00:22:57,376
Speaker 2: Where she plays Coyote.

422
00:22:57,796 --> 00:22:58,636
Speaker 1: She plays Coyote.

423
00:22:58,696 --> 00:23:00,836
Speaker 3: And McGuinn and Dylan are just looking at her and

424
00:23:00,876 --> 00:23:02,796
Speaker 3: they know they can't follow her because she's playing on

425
00:23:02,836 --> 00:23:03,476
Speaker 3: an open tuning.

426
00:23:03,496 --> 00:23:06,236
Speaker 1: That's exactly it. They play along and then they look

427
00:23:06,256 --> 00:23:07,076
Speaker 1: at each other and think.

428
00:23:07,196 --> 00:23:09,356
Speaker 3: Everything about the performance, and the same is true of

429
00:23:09,386 --> 00:23:13,996
Speaker 3: the performance on The Last Waltz, Everything is so perfectly weighted.

430
00:23:14,356 --> 00:23:18,676
Speaker 3: Her phrasing is perfectly weighted. You know, it's a very difficult,

431
00:23:18,696 --> 00:23:21,536
Speaker 3: long narrative song, and there's no common idioms in it

432
00:23:21,596 --> 00:23:24,696
Speaker 3: at all, hardly. There are lots of very unexpected kind

433
00:23:24,736 --> 00:23:28,716
Speaker 3: of things happening within the narrative of the song, and

434
00:23:28,796 --> 00:23:30,496
Speaker 3: complicated ideas, you know.

435
00:23:31,156 --> 00:23:32,516
Speaker 2: Like, what is the line about?

436
00:23:32,536 --> 00:23:37,206
Speaker 3: My scent on his fingers while he's watching the waitress's legs.

437
00:23:37,276 --> 00:23:39,226
Speaker 2: It's like, what the hell?

438
00:23:39,546 --> 00:23:42,376
Speaker 3: It's a very erotic kind of, Image, but also kind

439
00:23:42,396 --> 00:23:45,666
Speaker 3: of cold as well, like the whole dynamic of that song.

440
00:23:46,406 --> 00:23:49,306
Speaker 3: It's the unique perspective. It's not anything I'd ever like

441
00:23:49,406 --> 00:23:52,306
Speaker 3: try to write like, but it was the fact that

442
00:23:52,346 --> 00:23:56,026
Speaker 3: you could write like that. So many people say, my

443
00:23:56,136 --> 00:23:58,716
Speaker 3: elder brother played me this record by Dion and the Belmonds.

444
00:23:59,476 --> 00:24:04,196
Speaker 3: Even if you chronologically couldn't have known that music firsthand. Well,

445
00:24:04,236 --> 00:24:06,806
Speaker 3: that's why I didn't know who Elvis Presley was. Because

446
00:24:06,846 --> 00:24:09,386
Speaker 3: my parents never listened to any of his records. And

447
00:24:09,426 --> 00:24:11,136
Speaker 3: I knew he existed. And I knew it was a

448
00:24:11,236 --> 00:24:14,176
Speaker 3: name that people really liked. But I'd never heard any

449
00:24:14,216 --> 00:24:17,716
Speaker 3: of his records except by chance. Except a neighbor played

450
00:24:17,756 --> 00:24:21,616
Speaker 3: me It's Now or Never. And she was a Cliff

451
00:24:21,636 --> 00:24:24,096
Speaker 3: Richard fan. And she said, do you think this guy's

452
00:24:24,136 --> 00:24:24,976
Speaker 3: as good as Cliff?

453
00:24:26,056 --> 00:24:26,736
Speaker 2: And it was Elvis.

454
00:24:27,966 --> 00:24:30,246
Speaker 3: And I'd never heard an Elvis Presley record played on

455
00:24:30,286 --> 00:24:34,166
Speaker 3: a record before. And to an eight-year-old, I've got to

456
00:24:34,206 --> 00:24:36,806
Speaker 3: be honest, it sounded like opera. or what I thought

457
00:24:36,886 --> 00:24:39,886
Speaker 3: opera sounded like. I hadn't ever heard any opera, but

458
00:24:39,906 --> 00:24:41,546
Speaker 3: if you think about it, you can imagine it was like,

459
00:24:41,966 --> 00:24:44,906
Speaker 3: I don't understand what this, it's not like it's bad,

460
00:24:44,966 --> 00:24:47,146
Speaker 3: it's well sung, but it's not, what am I supposed.

461
00:24:46,926 --> 00:24:48,966
Speaker 2: To do with this?

462
00:24:48,986 --> 00:24:52,726
Speaker 3: And your responses at that age are very uncomplicated, like

463
00:24:52,746 --> 00:24:54,326
Speaker 3: you either like it or you don't like it.

464
00:24:54,826 --> 00:24:55,936
Speaker 2: You can't really analyze it.

465
00:24:56,936 --> 00:24:59,916
Speaker 3: Later on, John Lennon, next thing, a couple of years later,

466
00:24:59,936 --> 00:25:03,816
Speaker 3: John Lennon sang how important Elvis was. I still wasn't

467
00:25:03,916 --> 00:25:07,446
Speaker 3: really curious about, And I had no access. And all

468
00:25:07,506 --> 00:25:11,096
Speaker 3: I saw were like trailers for his movies. And they

469
00:25:11,116 --> 00:25:15,756
Speaker 3: truthfully looked a bit square. And then like the Motown

470
00:25:15,796 --> 00:25:19,876
Speaker 3: review came in 65. I'm like, you could have Stevie

471
00:25:19,896 --> 00:25:22,076
Speaker 3: Wonder or you could have this music, you know. It

472
00:25:22,116 --> 00:25:25,426
Speaker 3: wasn't until like Suspicious Minds that I thought, oh, now

473
00:25:25,486 --> 00:25:28,566
Speaker 3: I get it. Now I get why he's great. And

474
00:25:28,766 --> 00:25:30,946
Speaker 3: so when I made My Image True, I'd never heard

475
00:25:30,986 --> 00:25:34,986
Speaker 3: the Sun Sessions. You know, I'd like, you might say

476
00:25:35,026 --> 00:25:39,026
Speaker 3: Mystery Dance. is a little bit like a 50s sounding song.

477
00:25:39,626 --> 00:25:42,326
Speaker 3: But I learned that through the Beatles. Carl Perkins, I

478
00:25:42,346 --> 00:25:45,906
Speaker 3: knew who Carl Perkins was. And I knew Chuck Berry.

479
00:25:45,926 --> 00:25:49,506
Speaker 3: I knew Chuck Berry well. And Little Richard, he was

480
00:25:50,106 --> 00:25:52,826
Speaker 3: far and away my favorite rock and roll singer. Him

481
00:25:52,866 --> 00:25:53,506
Speaker 3: and Jerry Lee.

482
00:25:54,626 --> 00:25:56,196
Speaker 1: When did you first hear Little Richard?

483
00:25:57,456 --> 00:25:59,096
Speaker 3: When he was on TV when I was a kid.

484
00:25:59,376 --> 00:26:01,416
Speaker 3: And he'd just come out of being a gospel singer

485
00:26:01,436 --> 00:26:04,596
Speaker 3: and he came on Granada television. And it was backed

486
00:26:04,636 --> 00:26:08,666
Speaker 3: by the Sands Incorporated And he was doing his Lucille

487
00:26:08,706 --> 00:26:12,226
Speaker 3: and things like that. And he put out a new single,

488
00:26:12,246 --> 00:26:16,576
Speaker 3: I think 64, Bama Lama Bama Lou. That was the

489
00:26:16,616 --> 00:26:20,016
Speaker 3: first Little Richard record I owned. And I was far

490
00:26:20,036 --> 00:26:22,936
Speaker 3: and away at Little Richard. It was just like, you

491
00:26:22,976 --> 00:26:25,336
Speaker 3: couldn't be like that or anything. I never ever thought

492
00:26:25,376 --> 00:26:26,916
Speaker 3: of going to the piano and seeing if I could

493
00:26:26,956 --> 00:26:30,756
Speaker 3: play that even. But just in terms of the thrill

494
00:26:31,036 --> 00:26:33,456
Speaker 3: of his voice. And the same with Chuck Berry. The

495
00:26:33,496 --> 00:26:35,466
Speaker 3: first record I heard of Chuck Berry that I owned

496
00:26:36,266 --> 00:26:38,626
Speaker 3: was not one of the ones from the 50s. The

497
00:26:38,646 --> 00:26:40,986
Speaker 3: first Chuck Berry record I heard was No Particular Place

498
00:26:41,006 --> 00:26:44,526
Speaker 3: to Go, which again was after he came out from

499
00:26:44,686 --> 00:26:49,046
Speaker 3: when he was incarcerated. Just read the words down. It's incredible.

500
00:26:50,026 --> 00:26:52,426
Speaker 3: Like all of those songs, they're just incredible. You could

501
00:26:52,466 --> 00:26:55,586
Speaker 3: say they're poetry. They're so well constructed.

502
00:26:56,946 --> 00:26:58,506
Speaker 1: Did that influence your lyric writing?

503
00:26:59,046 --> 00:27:02,566
Speaker 3: It wasn't conscious, but I mean, I think the compression

504
00:27:02,586 --> 00:27:07,236
Speaker 3: of syllables per line It never frightened me. Like a

505
00:27:07,296 --> 00:27:10,836
Speaker 3: lot of words, it's a common observation that I use

506
00:27:10,856 --> 00:27:13,636
Speaker 3: too many words, but they're not. I'm just using as

507
00:27:13,676 --> 00:27:17,646
Speaker 3: many as I need. And that's true. And sometimes I'm

508
00:27:17,706 --> 00:27:22,666
Speaker 3: aware that I'm overpowering the ability to gather them. And

509
00:27:22,846 --> 00:27:24,986
Speaker 3: I think if you gather the sense of what I'm saying,

510
00:27:25,886 --> 00:27:30,036
Speaker 3: then later on you'll hear the emotion or the intensity

511
00:27:30,096 --> 00:27:32,236
Speaker 3: of it, you'll gather the rest of it. Because I

512
00:27:32,256 --> 00:27:35,756
Speaker 3: think you'd be hard pushed to Together, Too Much Monkey

513
00:27:35,776 --> 00:27:38,246
Speaker 3: Business or Maybelline at One. That was the whole thing.

514
00:27:38,686 --> 00:27:41,266
Speaker 3: It's like a movie with a great ending. You go,

515
00:27:41,346 --> 00:27:42,826
Speaker 3: that was a thrill. I have to go back to

516
00:27:42,866 --> 00:27:44,526
Speaker 3: the top of the ride to get to that thrill.

517
00:27:45,026 --> 00:27:48,986
Speaker 3: That's how Chuck Berry songs work. It's like he's throwing

518
00:27:49,066 --> 00:27:50,306
Speaker 3: so many ideas at you.

519
00:27:50,326 --> 00:27:52,906
Speaker 1: What you're talking about reminds me of, of course, the

520
00:27:52,926 --> 00:27:55,786
Speaker 1: first song on My Name is True, which has a

521
00:27:55,826 --> 00:27:57,526
Speaker 1: lot of words. Welcome to my working week.

522
00:27:57,646 --> 00:27:57,886
Speaker 2: Yeah.

523
00:27:58,446 --> 00:28:02,486
Speaker 1: And it has this sort of cadence I hear in

524
00:28:02,526 --> 00:28:05,176
Speaker 1: a lot of your songs, which is The syllables come

525
00:28:05,216 --> 00:28:08,056
Speaker 1: a little slower in the beginning, but then it really

526
00:28:08,096 --> 00:28:09,956
Speaker 1: accelerates towards the end.

527
00:28:10,556 --> 00:28:11,836
Speaker 2: I don't know where it comes from. It's not a

528
00:28:11,896 --> 00:28:13,356
Speaker 2: conscious imitation of anybody.

529
00:28:14,156 --> 00:28:16,276
Speaker 3: I think there are some songs within the blueprint where

530
00:28:16,316 --> 00:28:20,156
Speaker 3: I'm experimenting with the kind of, you know, lyrical voice

531
00:28:20,176 --> 00:28:21,896
Speaker 3: that I heard in other people, and I'm trying to

532
00:28:21,916 --> 00:28:25,096
Speaker 3: get close to that way of using words or the

533
00:28:25,136 --> 00:28:29,016
Speaker 3: kind of images that are incorporated to explain things. But

534
00:28:29,056 --> 00:28:30,416
Speaker 3: I wasn't sitting around analyzing stuff.

535
00:28:30,456 --> 00:28:33,096
Speaker 2: I was just doing it too fast, you know?

536
00:28:33,866 --> 00:28:38,346
Speaker 1: There's some wonderful reproductions of lyric sheets. You said you

537
00:28:38,366 --> 00:28:39,406
Speaker 1: always kept notebooks.

538
00:28:40,026 --> 00:28:43,806
Speaker 3: I did meticulously early on. And I still like to

539
00:28:43,846 --> 00:28:46,396
Speaker 3: write with a pen. I probably will commit too many

540
00:28:46,436 --> 00:28:49,656
Speaker 3: things directly to a screen. But I'm trying all the

541
00:28:49,696 --> 00:28:51,676
Speaker 3: time to get back to writing because I think the

542
00:28:51,716 --> 00:28:57,416
Speaker 3: rhythm and the editorial, which some of these notebooks reveal,

543
00:28:58,336 --> 00:29:02,526
Speaker 3: is a different use of the mind than reading lines

544
00:29:02,586 --> 00:29:04,406
Speaker 3: on a screen where they're all the same they all

545
00:29:04,446 --> 00:29:07,226
Speaker 3: appear to be the same length because there's no rhythm

546
00:29:07,306 --> 00:29:11,106
Speaker 3: to the to the physical handwriting the problem is you

547
00:29:11,126 --> 00:29:14,956
Speaker 3: get excitable you your your own handwriting can be illegible

548
00:29:14,996 --> 00:29:17,246
Speaker 3: so i might write a brilliant verse and not not

549
00:29:17,266 --> 00:29:19,276
Speaker 3: be able to read it back i train myself to

550
00:29:19,326 --> 00:29:22,056
Speaker 3: be able to write in the dark oh yeah it's

551
00:29:22,096 --> 00:29:24,296
Speaker 3: not that much of a trick and it was a

552
00:29:24,316 --> 00:29:26,536
Speaker 3: familiar thing for me to wake up and with something

553
00:29:26,556 --> 00:29:28,866
Speaker 3: would be on my mind and I'd try and write

554
00:29:28,906 --> 00:29:30,266
Speaker 3: it down or enough of it. It wouldn't be a

555
00:29:30,286 --> 00:29:31,946
Speaker 3: whole line. It would be just a couple of words.

556
00:29:32,406 --> 00:29:34,136
Speaker 3: I knew that if I turned the light on, that

557
00:29:34,236 --> 00:29:38,276
Speaker 3: that line would disappear. And we've all had that experience, surely,

558
00:29:38,356 --> 00:29:41,676
Speaker 3: of like apparently being in a story or hearing music

559
00:29:41,676 --> 00:29:43,876
Speaker 3: in a dream. And then you wake up and you

560
00:29:43,876 --> 00:29:45,036
Speaker 3: think you've got.

561
00:29:44,816 --> 00:29:45,696
Speaker 2: It in your head.

562
00:29:45,696 --> 00:29:47,946
Speaker 3: But if you're a musician, and you go to the

563
00:29:47,986 --> 00:29:50,166
Speaker 3: instrument almost instantly, you can't gather it.

564
00:29:50,486 --> 00:29:51,886
Speaker 2: I've had that happen lots of times.

565
00:29:52,746 --> 00:29:53,436
Speaker 1: And you've lost it.

566
00:29:54,166 --> 00:29:56,456
Speaker 3: Yeah, just a melody would come to me in a dream.

567
00:29:56,516 --> 00:29:57,556
Speaker 2: Oh, that's a great tune.

568
00:29:57,616 --> 00:29:59,756
Speaker 3: And I wake up and I think, and I go

569
00:29:59,816 --> 00:30:02,036
Speaker 3: and go to a piano or go to a guitar.

570
00:30:02,436 --> 00:30:03,876
Speaker 3: By the time you've got the guitar out of the case,

571
00:30:03,916 --> 00:30:04,496
Speaker 3: you've forgotten it.

572
00:30:05,896 --> 00:30:06,736
Speaker 2: And I guess if you.

573
00:30:06,656 --> 00:30:09,406
Speaker 3: Can't gather it, then maybe it was only it only

574
00:30:09,466 --> 00:30:11,326
Speaker 3: had its reality in a dream, like a lot of

575
00:30:11,366 --> 00:30:12,526
Speaker 3: things in a dream are illogical.

576
00:30:13,266 --> 00:30:16,406
Speaker 1: But that's how Angels Want to Wear My Red Shoes came.

577
00:30:16,706 --> 00:30:18,286
Speaker 2: That's kind of like a visitation.

578
00:30:18,346 --> 00:30:20,546
Speaker 3: That's a thing that's happened a number of times, and

579
00:30:20,586 --> 00:30:22,676
Speaker 3: I don't want to make anything that mystical about it,

580
00:30:22,686 --> 00:30:24,406
Speaker 3: but it came to me on the back end of

581
00:30:24,466 --> 00:30:27,836
Speaker 3: a train journey from London to Liverpool. And I remember

582
00:30:28,016 --> 00:30:30,796
Speaker 3: the image coming into my head as we pulled out

583
00:30:30,836 --> 00:30:33,636
Speaker 3: of Roncorn Station and went over the bridge, across the Mersey,

584
00:30:34,796 --> 00:30:38,086
Speaker 3: and into the city. And by the time my got

585
00:30:38,126 --> 00:30:40,786
Speaker 3: to lime street i had the whole song in some

586
00:30:40,826 --> 00:30:44,846
Speaker 3: sort of embryonic form and then had of course no

587
00:30:45,106 --> 00:30:49,256
Speaker 3: tape recorder no voice memo device in those days just

588
00:30:49,296 --> 00:30:52,456
Speaker 3: a notebook i'd scribbled a few lines down in and

589
00:30:52,496 --> 00:30:54,396
Speaker 3: a tune going around my head and i usually got

590
00:30:54,436 --> 00:30:57,076
Speaker 3: the bus to my mother's i didn't have a lot

591
00:30:57,116 --> 00:31:00,546
Speaker 3: of money on this occasion i i ran to the

592
00:31:00,566 --> 00:31:03,046
Speaker 3: cab rank and got in a cab and said take

593
00:31:03,066 --> 00:31:06,886
Speaker 3: me to my mother's address and uh I tried to

594
00:31:06,966 --> 00:31:09,206
Speaker 3: sing the song in my head all the time so

595
00:31:09,246 --> 00:31:11,566
Speaker 3: that I wouldn't lose it. And then got to the

596
00:31:11,586 --> 00:31:13,346
Speaker 3: house and barely set a load of it and ran upstairs.

597
00:31:13,386 --> 00:31:15,166
Speaker 3: You know, my old guitar was still sitting on top

598
00:31:15,186 --> 00:31:17,406
Speaker 3: of the wardrobe and I played it and played it.

599
00:31:18,026 --> 00:31:19,806
Speaker 3: She must have wondered where I'd gone because I must

600
00:31:19,826 --> 00:31:22,816
Speaker 3: have been gone an hour playing it until it was

601
00:31:22,876 --> 00:31:25,816
Speaker 3: imprinted on my memory. So I play it and I

602
00:31:25,856 --> 00:31:28,036
Speaker 3: probably changed it a little bit, you know. And even

603
00:31:28,076 --> 00:31:31,516
Speaker 3: within this box set, there's the structure of the song.

604
00:31:31,536 --> 00:31:35,016
Speaker 3: The rhythm wasn't set originally. The lyric and most of

605
00:31:35,036 --> 00:31:37,656
Speaker 3: the narrative was there But before we were putting this

606
00:31:37,716 --> 00:31:39,916
Speaker 3: box together, a friend of mine wrote to me after

607
00:31:39,956 --> 00:31:42,596
Speaker 3: a long time of not being in touch and said,

608
00:31:42,656 --> 00:31:45,996
Speaker 3: I found a tape that you recorded at my house

609
00:31:46,196 --> 00:31:48,666
Speaker 3: in 1976. And I must have just been playing through

610
00:31:48,706 --> 00:31:51,866
Speaker 3: my new songs. And there's a version of The Angels

611
00:31:51,886 --> 00:31:53,766
Speaker 3: From Where I Wear My Red Shoes. And the rhythm

612
00:31:53,826 --> 00:31:59,186
Speaker 3: of it is like Wooly Bully by Sam the Shaman

613
00:31:59,206 --> 00:32:02,586
Speaker 3: and the Pharaohs. I hadn't found what I later sort

614
00:32:02,646 --> 00:32:05,946
Speaker 3: of felt was like the birds kind of spacing. The

615
00:32:05,986 --> 00:32:09,026
Speaker 3: song was set to a totally different motive originally.

616
00:32:10,436 --> 00:32:13,356
Speaker 1: What were the other influences on your lyric writing? Your

617
00:32:13,396 --> 00:32:17,176
Speaker 1: lyric writing is so strong, so unique. What were you

618
00:32:17,216 --> 00:32:17,976
Speaker 1: reading at the time?

619
00:32:19,036 --> 00:32:24,256
Speaker 3: I was reading Pulp Fiction, a lot of it. You know, like,

620
00:32:24,756 --> 00:32:27,326
Speaker 3: that's what's in Watching the Detectives. I read a lot

621
00:32:27,346 --> 00:32:29,226
Speaker 3: of Graham Greene when I was a teenager. He was

622
00:32:29,766 --> 00:32:36,046
Speaker 3: somebody that I think became his impact... on stories and

623
00:32:36,066 --> 00:32:38,546
Speaker 3: the kind of outlook and the moral point of view

624
00:32:38,986 --> 00:32:41,046
Speaker 3: is in some later songs, but I wouldn't say he's

625
00:32:41,086 --> 00:32:44,096
Speaker 3: evident in these songs. But I didn't really have any

626
00:32:44,576 --> 00:32:48,256
Speaker 3: pretensions to any literary sort of.

627
00:32:49,536 --> 00:32:50,196
Speaker 2: Elevation.

628
00:32:51,156 --> 00:32:53,416
Speaker 3: It's very notable that my first five records don't have

629
00:32:53,476 --> 00:32:57,016
Speaker 3: printed lyrics because I honestly believed at that time, and

630
00:32:57,036 --> 00:33:00,366
Speaker 3: I've since revised it, that they had to be heard

631
00:33:00,666 --> 00:33:03,416
Speaker 3: or understood all at once with the music. And I

632
00:33:03,456 --> 00:33:06,456
Speaker 3: kind of thought it a little bit redolent of the

633
00:33:06,476 --> 00:33:10,876
Speaker 3: things I didn't respond to about Californian music that I

634
00:33:10,936 --> 00:33:14,496
Speaker 3: had loved. There was a sort of, a slightly precious

635
00:33:14,596 --> 00:33:18,226
Speaker 3: sort of, now my art, you know? And I didn't

636
00:33:18,406 --> 00:33:20,746
Speaker 3: think that's what we were doing, particularly not that year.

637
00:33:20,766 --> 00:33:24,706
Speaker 1: I had wondered if your interest sort of in gangsters

638
00:33:24,786 --> 00:33:29,816
Speaker 1: and the underworld came a little bit from your father's occupation,

639
00:33:29,856 --> 00:33:32,216
Speaker 1: because he must have known some characters.

640
00:33:32,716 --> 00:33:35,126
Speaker 3: He would talk sometimes about somebody called Sid the Thief

641
00:33:35,206 --> 00:33:37,586
Speaker 3: or something like that. There's characters in the dance hall

642
00:33:37,606 --> 00:33:40,926
Speaker 3: he would sometimes tell me or tell that he would be.

643
00:33:41,386 --> 00:33:42,906
Speaker 3: My parents put up when I was quite young, but

644
00:33:42,946 --> 00:33:45,806
Speaker 3: he would come for supper or come for a Sunday lunch.

645
00:33:46,066 --> 00:33:49,646
Speaker 3: And he regaled us with various stories about different colorful people.

646
00:33:50,656 --> 00:33:52,996
Speaker 3: And I got to kind of like hang out with him.

647
00:33:53,036 --> 00:33:55,216
Speaker 3: Sometimes when I was a young teenager, I'd go to

648
00:33:55,276 --> 00:33:57,196
Speaker 3: a lock-in with him on a Sunday afternoon in a

649
00:33:57,236 --> 00:34:00,416
Speaker 3: pub that was run by his former singing partner. And

650
00:34:00,516 --> 00:34:03,156
Speaker 3: hear him and his friend, who was the guy who

651
00:34:03,176 --> 00:34:08,046
Speaker 3: wrote Hard Day's Night, Alan Owen, who was a would-be

652
00:34:08,306 --> 00:34:11,646
Speaker 3: Brendan Behan kind of character. And they would talk very

653
00:34:11,666 --> 00:34:14,706
Speaker 3: expansively about colorful people. And I probably, in my mind,

654
00:34:14,786 --> 00:34:17,146
Speaker 3: I've embroidered it a little bit to seem like we

655
00:34:17,166 --> 00:34:19,466
Speaker 3: were in a Daman Runyon book, but it wasn't really

656
00:34:19,526 --> 00:34:22,036
Speaker 3: like that. It was just some people kind of having

657
00:34:22,096 --> 00:34:24,436
Speaker 3: a drink, you know. And I'm sitting there with my

658
00:34:24,456 --> 00:34:27,216
Speaker 3: shambi in the corner, like, wondering about the adults, you know.

659
00:34:27,796 --> 00:34:31,876
Speaker 1: Do you remember writing particular lines? I'm thinking of she's

660
00:34:31,916 --> 00:34:34,296
Speaker 1: filing her nails while they're dragging the lake, which I

661
00:34:34,316 --> 00:34:36,526
Speaker 1: think would make any pulp writer pretty proud.

662
00:34:37,696 --> 00:34:38,796
Speaker 2: I wish I could say I did.

663
00:34:38,816 --> 00:34:40,876
Speaker 3: I remember the speed with which I wrote that song

664
00:34:40,896 --> 00:34:45,036
Speaker 3: might have overwhelmed that because I wrote it in one sitting. So,

665
00:34:45,516 --> 00:34:47,236
Speaker 3: you know, I don't think I had time to stand

666
00:34:47,276 --> 00:34:50,076
Speaker 3: back and admire my own work if I even had

667
00:34:50,116 --> 00:34:54,496
Speaker 3: that impulse to do that. I have had occasion in

668
00:34:54,576 --> 00:34:58,936
Speaker 3: going back to assemble this set of when we went

669
00:34:58,996 --> 00:35:01,616
Speaker 3: back to the notebooks that I kept that you mentioned before.

670
00:35:02,236 --> 00:35:03,896
Speaker 3: Of course, one of the things, one of the reasons

671
00:35:03,936 --> 00:35:06,036
Speaker 3: that second disc in the set is called The Blueprint

672
00:35:06,606 --> 00:35:08,786
Speaker 3: is because it quite literally is the blueprint in some

673
00:35:08,826 --> 00:35:15,886
Speaker 3: cases where I had whole couplets, whole stanzas, whole entire

674
00:35:15,906 --> 00:35:21,646
Speaker 3: lyrics that I kept and I discarded the music thinking

675
00:35:21,726 --> 00:35:26,046
Speaker 3: that the songs didn't speak up for themselves enough in

676
00:35:26,066 --> 00:35:30,376
Speaker 3: the musical setting and found entirely different musical settings.

677
00:35:30,396 --> 00:35:31,166
Speaker 2: So Leave a Man.

678
00:35:31,956 --> 00:35:34,716
Speaker 3: The lyrics of Leave a Man Become Accidents Will Happen,

679
00:35:34,776 --> 00:35:37,476
Speaker 3: the words of I Can't Turn It Off become Watch

680
00:35:37,526 --> 00:35:40,226
Speaker 3: a Step, Citizen Junction becomes King Horse.

681
00:35:41,306 --> 00:35:44,386
Speaker 2: And those are very different music. They're not even remotely

682
00:35:44,426 --> 00:35:44,866
Speaker 2: the same.

683
00:35:46,606 --> 00:35:49,266
Speaker 1: Are the words always written with music in mind?

684
00:35:50,346 --> 00:35:52,326
Speaker 3: No, they all exist in music and are on this

685
00:35:52,406 --> 00:35:55,446
Speaker 3: record in the original drafts. And there are in the

686
00:35:55,486 --> 00:35:59,646
Speaker 3: notebooks some titles and even some whole lyrics that I

687
00:35:59,686 --> 00:36:03,386
Speaker 3: don't have music for. There's one called Sad Holiday that

688
00:36:03,426 --> 00:36:06,526
Speaker 3: has lyrics that ended up in Lipstick Vogue. But I

689
00:36:06,566 --> 00:36:08,526
Speaker 3: have no memory of what the original tune.

690
00:36:08,306 --> 00:36:10,306
Speaker 2: Was of that first iteration.

691
00:36:10,966 --> 00:36:13,726
Speaker 3: It's only the ones that I thought well enough to

692
00:36:13,766 --> 00:36:16,666
Speaker 3: demo when I was given the opportunity. I didn't own

693
00:36:16,726 --> 00:36:19,356
Speaker 3: a tape recorder of any consequence, so I used to

694
00:36:19,396 --> 00:36:23,296
Speaker 3: borrow one, RIVOX, to record my.

695
00:36:24,396 --> 00:36:26,616
Speaker 2: I only made a couple of these bedroom demos.

696
00:36:27,436 --> 00:36:29,056
Speaker 3: And then I had the opportunity to go and record

697
00:36:29,096 --> 00:36:34,516
Speaker 3: in Dave Robinson's studio open anchor. And the other things

698
00:36:34,556 --> 00:36:36,936
Speaker 3: that are in this set are literal demos that were

699
00:36:36,996 --> 00:36:42,556
Speaker 3: recorded at Pathway Studios between my first recording session with

700
00:36:43,036 --> 00:36:46,816
Speaker 3: Nick Lowe and John McPhee for Mystery Dance and the

701
00:36:46,856 --> 00:36:51,626
Speaker 3: beginning of working with Clover as a band. And I

702
00:36:51,686 --> 00:36:56,486
Speaker 3: cut six songs in one take, which were most of

703
00:36:56,526 --> 00:37:00,556
Speaker 3: Miami's truth. because I wanted to kill this idea that

704
00:37:00,936 --> 00:37:03,576
Speaker 3: Stiff had at that time, that they were going to

705
00:37:03,616 --> 00:37:05,976
Speaker 3: put me on one side of the record and Eric

706
00:37:06,016 --> 00:37:09,416
Speaker 3: on the other. Kind of like two, what's it called?

707
00:37:09,456 --> 00:37:12,226
Speaker 3: Two guitars, two fabulous guitars. There's a record with Chuck

708
00:37:12,246 --> 00:37:15,546
Speaker 3: Perry and Bo Diddley that's one side each, you know?

709
00:37:16,506 --> 00:37:19,266
Speaker 3: And I remember there was like lots of ideas came

710
00:37:19,366 --> 00:37:22,406
Speaker 3: through in those early days, because I was still working

711
00:37:22,426 --> 00:37:24,486
Speaker 3: in an office. I'd go to Stiff and they'd say,

712
00:37:24,586 --> 00:37:26,126
Speaker 3: we've got this great idea. We're going to put you

713
00:37:26,206 --> 00:37:29,256
Speaker 3: on half a record. And that's not going to happen.

714
00:37:29,606 --> 00:37:32,666
Speaker 3: I was not good at speaking up for myself, but

715
00:37:32,686 --> 00:37:34,706
Speaker 3: I just had to illustrate it. And once they heard

716
00:37:34,726 --> 00:37:36,796
Speaker 3: the other songs, it just made a nonsense of it.

717
00:37:37,406 --> 00:37:41,446
Speaker 1: Were you very competitive as a songwriter, as a performer?

718
00:37:42,046 --> 00:37:46,066
Speaker 1: You were surrounded by some great talent. I mean, Ian Curry.

719
00:37:46,466 --> 00:37:48,846
Speaker 2: It wasn't that confident. Ian, I really loved. We toured.

720
00:37:48,866 --> 00:37:51,976
Speaker 3: The first sort of theater tour that we ever did

721
00:37:52,036 --> 00:37:54,996
Speaker 3: was on a package tour with Nick Lowe and Reckless

722
00:37:55,036 --> 00:37:58,906
Speaker 3: Eric and him. And There was a degree of competition

723
00:37:59,006 --> 00:38:02,856
Speaker 3: because the original idea of the tour was very democratic.

724
00:38:02,936 --> 00:38:07,236
Speaker 3: And there was a rotating bill, which meant that, you know,

725
00:38:08,196 --> 00:38:11,376
Speaker 3: after about three nights or one, really after one time

726
00:38:11,416 --> 00:38:13,926
Speaker 3: around the circle, the first four shows, it became really

727
00:38:14,006 --> 00:38:17,726
Speaker 3: obvious that the other two acts could not follow either

728
00:38:17,806 --> 00:38:19,946
Speaker 3: us or the blockheads.

729
00:38:20,146 --> 00:38:20,766
Speaker 2: They just couldn't.

730
00:38:20,966 --> 00:38:24,506
Speaker 3: It just didn't work as show business. And I probably

731
00:38:24,546 --> 00:38:27,576
Speaker 3: knew that as well as anybody else. that was on

732
00:38:27,596 --> 00:38:30,456
Speaker 3: that tour because I'd watched Show Business at work with

733
00:38:30,496 --> 00:38:33,556
Speaker 3: my father. I said, just in showcraft, this doesn't work.

734
00:38:34,216 --> 00:38:38,256
Speaker 3: Nothing against the quality of the individual songs. Ian's so dramatic.

735
00:38:38,296 --> 00:38:41,686
Speaker 3: He really should have closed every night. He had the

736
00:38:41,706 --> 00:38:44,186
Speaker 3: command as a performer. I was still learning it. But,

737
00:38:45,106 --> 00:38:47,606
Speaker 3: you know, you couldn't say one was a better band,

738
00:38:47,626 --> 00:38:49,986
Speaker 3: but we could both really play. Both bands could play.

739
00:38:50,746 --> 00:38:53,026
Speaker 3: The other three anyway, not me, but the other three

740
00:38:53,066 --> 00:38:56,976
Speaker 3: could play. The Blockheads were a great group. So, of course,

741
00:38:57,026 --> 00:38:59,846
Speaker 3: it was a bit competitive, but only in a sense

742
00:38:59,926 --> 00:39:03,046
Speaker 3: of it. I'm sure all package tours, you know, are.

743
00:39:03,066 --> 00:39:06,686
Speaker 3: I mean, Joyce Moore told me once that, you know, Sam,

744
00:39:07,386 --> 00:39:10,316
Speaker 3: he loved Wilson Pickett, but it was always difficult to

745
00:39:10,376 --> 00:39:12,596
Speaker 3: play on the bill with him because if you played

746
00:39:12,636 --> 00:39:16,416
Speaker 3: before him, he'd be angry with you that you were headlining.

747
00:39:16,496 --> 00:39:18,256
Speaker 3: And if you went on before him, he'd accuse you

748
00:39:18,276 --> 00:39:20,216
Speaker 3: of trying to upstage him. So I don't know how

749
00:39:20,236 --> 00:39:22,616
Speaker 3: true that is, but it rings true, doesn't it? You know,

750
00:39:22,636 --> 00:39:24,276
Speaker 3: because musicians can be competitive.

751
00:39:24,316 --> 00:39:24,456
Speaker 2: Yeah.

752
00:39:27,756 --> 00:39:31,506
Speaker 1: In the liner notes, there's a lovely quote from Roseanne

753
00:39:31,526 --> 00:39:36,806
Speaker 1: Cash who talks about this album coming out. And she

754
00:39:36,866 --> 00:39:39,876
Speaker 1: says that you know, when she heard My Aim Is True,

755
00:39:40,436 --> 00:39:43,076
Speaker 1: she realized she had to up her game, and that

756
00:39:43,116 --> 00:39:45,356
Speaker 1: a song like Seven Year Ache wouldn't have been written.

757
00:39:45,376 --> 00:39:48,056
Speaker 3: That was a big compliment that she paid me. I mean,

758
00:39:48,096 --> 00:39:53,696
Speaker 3: she's such a terrific lyricist. But everybody has to learn.

759
00:39:53,716 --> 00:39:59,536
Speaker 3: And if you think about the comparative shadows of our fathers,

760
00:40:00,836 --> 00:40:04,266
Speaker 3: she lived in the much bigger shadow, not because she

761
00:40:04,306 --> 00:40:07,666
Speaker 3: wrote anything like Johnny, but because people wanted her to

762
00:40:07,706 --> 00:40:11,886
Speaker 3: be her father's daughter initially. And for her to stay,

763
00:40:12,146 --> 00:40:15,216
Speaker 3: she was living in California, and for her to be,

764
00:40:16,036 --> 00:40:19,476
Speaker 3: to have such a singular but separate voice and in

765
00:40:20,016 --> 00:40:22,656
Speaker 3: more recent years to have managed to kind of actually

766
00:40:22,716 --> 00:40:27,416
Speaker 3: acknowledge the gifts that both her parents gave her And

767
00:40:27,456 --> 00:40:30,256
Speaker 3: that musical understanding is something I can really relate to.

768
00:40:30,296 --> 00:40:32,996
Speaker 3: That's probably one of the areas that why we're friends,

769
00:40:33,016 --> 00:40:35,516
Speaker 3: because we can understand that really well.

770
00:40:36,036 --> 00:40:38,796
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about writing Stranger in the

771
00:40:38,836 --> 00:40:44,136
Speaker 1: House and Just a Memory. They're such perfect songs for

772
00:40:44,196 --> 00:40:50,126
Speaker 1: those artists, for Dusty Springfield and for George Jones. Did

773
00:40:50,146 --> 00:40:52,106
Speaker 1: you have them in mind when you wrote those songs?

774
00:40:53,376 --> 00:40:55,976
Speaker 3: George's records were hard to get in england you know

775
00:40:56,016 --> 00:41:00,196
Speaker 3: i learned about george jones and merle haggard and even

776
00:41:00,236 --> 00:41:02,536
Speaker 3: to a degree johnny cash who's most of his hit

777
00:41:02,576 --> 00:41:05,536
Speaker 3: records were novelty records like boy named sue or you

778
00:41:05,556 --> 00:41:07,716
Speaker 3: know one piece at a time most of the ones

779
00:41:07,736 --> 00:41:09,916
Speaker 3: that i was aware of i knew about hank williams

780
00:41:09,936 --> 00:41:12,126
Speaker 3: for some reason i kind of got into hank williams

781
00:41:12,776 --> 00:41:14,806
Speaker 3: but then i started to trace forward and i found

782
00:41:14,846 --> 00:41:18,236
Speaker 3: that so i just had lots of different people's style.

783
00:41:18,436 --> 00:41:22,336
Speaker 2: It was the simplicity, simple chords, and.

784
00:41:22,356 --> 00:41:26,376
Speaker 3: The structure of the song paying off to a refrain

785
00:41:26,396 --> 00:41:31,296
Speaker 3: and the pace and the rhythm. Billy Sherald told me

786
00:41:31,316 --> 00:41:33,516
Speaker 3: he knew it wasn't a Nashville demo because it had

787
00:41:33,536 --> 00:41:35,396
Speaker 3: an electric rhythm guitar on it, and that's.

788
00:41:35,296 --> 00:41:38,136
Speaker 2: How he knew it. It wasn't recorded in Nashville. They

789
00:41:38,156 --> 00:41:40,076
Speaker 2: never would have let anybody play the rhythm part on

790
00:41:40,116 --> 00:41:40,536
Speaker 2: an electric.

791
00:41:40,636 --> 00:41:42,116
Speaker 1: I couldn't afford a thousand strings.

792
00:41:42,196 --> 00:41:43,036
Speaker 2: But it was styled.

793
00:41:45,956 --> 00:41:48,676
Speaker 3: In that Weeper style, you know, that I by then

794
00:41:48,696 --> 00:41:52,656
Speaker 3: had absorbed quite a lot of George Jones and Graham

795
00:41:52,676 --> 00:41:55,756
Speaker 3: as well. I'd say Graham Parsons was also probably in there.

796
00:41:56,596 --> 00:41:59,936
Speaker 3: Because I figured if the Rolling Stones could record Wild Horses,

797
00:41:59,956 --> 00:42:01,596
Speaker 3: then somebody could record Strange in the.

798
00:42:01,496 --> 00:42:04,576
Speaker 2: House, you know, just as easily. You know, I felt

799
00:42:04,656 --> 00:42:05,816
Speaker 2: lucky to do that.

800
00:42:05,916 --> 00:42:09,696
Speaker 3: I think the thing about the song, it's related to

801
00:42:09,856 --> 00:42:13,776
Speaker 3: Alison in a way, in the lyrical sense. in that

802
00:42:13,816 --> 00:42:16,456
Speaker 3: it has this sense of dread about what may happen

803
00:42:16,496 --> 00:42:20,536
Speaker 3: in a deep love that maybe you're not wired to

804
00:42:20,576 --> 00:42:24,906
Speaker 3: be constant. And I suppose when I think about it,

805
00:42:24,956 --> 00:42:28,076
Speaker 3: it was a kind of horrible realization. I think it

806
00:42:28,116 --> 00:42:29,956
Speaker 3: was perhaps more true to life. I think I was

807
00:42:30,016 --> 00:42:32,456
Speaker 3: role-playing when I wrote the song, and then the song

808
00:42:32,476 --> 00:42:35,736
Speaker 3: came true. And that's true of both of those songs.

809
00:42:37,176 --> 00:42:38,756
Speaker 1: Is that true of a lot of your music?

810
00:42:41,506 --> 00:42:42,166
Speaker 2: Thankfully, no.

811
00:42:43,236 --> 00:42:46,296
Speaker 3: You asked about the other one, Losing You. There is

812
00:42:46,336 --> 00:42:49,416
Speaker 3: a song called Losing You on the Blueprint, which is

813
00:42:49,436 --> 00:42:53,206
Speaker 3: a completely different song, except for the chorus, which is

814
00:42:53,266 --> 00:42:57,876
Speaker 3: the same words as the later ballad. And I dispense

815
00:42:57,896 --> 00:43:00,076
Speaker 3: with all the more arcane, and I have to say,

816
00:43:00,496 --> 00:43:05,396
Speaker 3: Asbury Park-ish kind of imagery of the original draft, which

817
00:43:05,436 --> 00:43:08,106
Speaker 3: was my attempt to write like a greetings from Asbury Park.

818
00:43:09,406 --> 00:43:11,766
Speaker 3: That was shameless, I felt. I thought it was obvious,

819
00:43:11,826 --> 00:43:13,866
Speaker 3: but you might not think that when you hear it.

820
00:43:13,906 --> 00:43:17,306
Speaker 3: But I was definitely trying to do that. And it

821
00:43:17,966 --> 00:43:22,536
Speaker 3: pays off to this pretty pure chorus, pure pop chorus.

822
00:43:23,596 --> 00:43:25,656
Speaker 3: So When I had time to think about it, I

823
00:43:25,696 --> 00:43:29,376
Speaker 3: thought those sentiments needed more longing.

824
00:43:29,976 --> 00:43:32,156
Speaker 2: And I came up with the ballad melody, which we

825
00:43:32,196 --> 00:43:32,796
Speaker 2: recorded in 1980.

826
00:43:32,796 --> 00:43:36,976
Speaker 3: And that was totally dusty in my head because she

827
00:43:37,016 --> 00:43:39,206
Speaker 3: already had a song called Losing You, so I changed

828
00:43:39,246 --> 00:43:41,846
Speaker 3: the title to Just a Memory. And then my dream

829
00:43:41,886 --> 00:43:44,686
Speaker 3: came true. She did actually pick it up without my bidding.

830
00:43:45,786 --> 00:43:47,526
Speaker 3: And the next thing, I had a call while we

831
00:43:47,546 --> 00:43:50,926
Speaker 3: were recording Imperial Bedroom. Would I take a call from her?

832
00:43:52,356 --> 00:43:54,796
Speaker 3: And the call came through while we were in a session.

833
00:43:54,816 --> 00:44:00,936
Speaker 3: And she said, I love this song that the producers

834
00:44:01,016 --> 00:44:04,916
Speaker 3: played me, this demo, but it's too short. It was

835
00:44:04,956 --> 00:44:08,986
Speaker 3: only one minute and 30 seconds or something, the demo,

836
00:44:09,586 --> 00:44:12,706
Speaker 3: or one minute and 40. Can you write another verse?

837
00:44:14,246 --> 00:44:17,886
Speaker 3: But nothing too lovey-dovey. That's what she actually said. And

838
00:44:18,186 --> 00:44:20,946
Speaker 3: my heart broke, you know, like, And I did have

839
00:44:20,966 --> 00:44:25,346
Speaker 3: wrote another verse for her. So, you know, that's only

840
00:44:25,386 --> 00:44:28,586
Speaker 3: happened a few times. It happened with her and it

841
00:44:28,606 --> 00:44:31,036
Speaker 3: happened with Chet Baker that I dreamt the song and

842
00:44:31,056 --> 00:44:33,936
Speaker 3: then the person who was intended for it actually recorded it.

843
00:44:34,736 --> 00:44:38,836
Speaker 1: That was almost blue. So that brings us to Alison,

844
00:44:38,856 --> 00:44:44,226
Speaker 1: about which much has been written. What interests me, particularly

845
00:44:44,266 --> 00:44:47,286
Speaker 1: when you listen through on the album, is.

846
00:44:48,806 --> 00:44:54,046
Speaker 1: It's much more adventurous harmonically than the songs that preceded.

847
00:44:55,106 --> 00:44:59,456
Speaker 2: Well, it was written in the informed by Tom Bell.

848
00:45:00,316 --> 00:45:03,336
Speaker 3: Oh. Yeah, because I'd heard Ghetto Child by the Spinners,

849
00:45:03,376 --> 00:45:05,536
Speaker 3: what you call the Spinners, what we call the Detroit Spinners,

850
00:45:06,356 --> 00:45:08,256
Speaker 3: because there was a Spinners group in England, so they

851
00:45:08,276 --> 00:45:12,956
Speaker 3: had to adopt Detroit Spinners. And that record, with its

852
00:45:13,046 --> 00:45:18,726
Speaker 3: sort of halting, Life ain't so easy in your that phrase,

853
00:45:19,166 --> 00:45:19,746
Speaker 3: that's Alison.

854
00:45:19,806 --> 00:45:22,086
Speaker 2: That's where it comes from. You can hear that, right?

855
00:45:22,146 --> 00:45:23,386
Speaker 1: That's where the rhythm comes from.

856
00:45:23,446 --> 00:45:24,466
Speaker 2: That's where the rhythm comes from.

857
00:45:24,526 --> 00:45:28,736
Speaker 1: But also you're using borrowed chords. It starts on a

858
00:45:28,756 --> 00:45:31,496
Speaker 1: suspended chord. It's much different than the things.

859
00:45:31,536 --> 00:45:36,176
Speaker 3: Well, that's Mark Taplin. That's listening to Mark Taplin. That's just,

860
00:45:36,396 --> 00:45:40,236
Speaker 3: I mean, McPhee on the introduction is playing something different,

861
00:45:40,596 --> 00:45:46,246
Speaker 3: but the suspended chord, the suspended five chord is, you know,

862
00:45:46,286 --> 00:45:51,156
Speaker 3: that's something you hear in Tracks of My Tears and

863
00:45:51,176 --> 00:45:54,836
Speaker 3: things like that. I knew those songs. And specifically, that's

864
00:45:54,936 --> 00:45:59,856
Speaker 3: the way Marv Taplin played. I was nowhere near as

865
00:45:59,896 --> 00:46:03,716
Speaker 3: capable a guitar player as he was. But those little

866
00:46:03,776 --> 00:46:06,526
Speaker 3: things where you sort of hear something that makes you thrilled,

867
00:46:07,326 --> 00:46:09,466
Speaker 3: and you try to find a thing that satisfies you

868
00:46:09,846 --> 00:46:10,666
Speaker 3: to the same degree.

869
00:46:10,686 --> 00:46:14,706
Speaker 1: I do want to ask you a little more about Alison.

870
00:46:15,086 --> 00:46:15,506
Speaker 3: Yes.

871
00:46:16,326 --> 00:46:17,686
Speaker 1: I think it was the only song I looked up

872
00:46:18,426 --> 00:46:21,086
Speaker 1: on Wikipedia to see what other people thought.

873
00:46:21,146 --> 00:46:23,026
Speaker 2: That'll make that, there you'll find the truth.

874
00:46:23,826 --> 00:46:28,406
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's why I went there. Which is, some

875
00:46:28,446 --> 00:46:30,246
Speaker 1: people argue it's a murder ballad.

876
00:46:30,286 --> 00:46:35,296
Speaker 3: No, it's not a murder ballad. Neither is watching the detectives.

877
00:46:35,396 --> 00:46:39,276
Speaker 3: It's describing the things that somebody's watching on the television.

878
00:46:39,396 --> 00:46:45,816
Speaker 3: Alison is the sense that your nature may kill the

879
00:46:45,876 --> 00:46:47,696
Speaker 3: love that you cherish most.

880
00:46:49,146 --> 00:46:50,426
Speaker 1: You see, I find Alison.

881
00:46:50,466 --> 00:46:51,446
Speaker 2: That's exactly what it is.

882
00:46:51,506 --> 00:46:54,646
Speaker 1: I've always found it an incredibly tender song.

883
00:46:54,886 --> 00:46:55,166
Speaker 2: It is.

884
00:46:56,046 --> 00:46:58,616
Speaker 3: It's a love song, but it's a love song with

885
00:46:58,636 --> 00:47:02,056
Speaker 3: the possibility of failure written into it. So it's a

886
00:47:02,056 --> 00:47:05,916
Speaker 3: little bit like these lines, you know? Somewhere a broom

887
00:47:05,976 --> 00:47:08,656
Speaker 3: is sweeping up the broken pieces of yesterday's life.

888
00:47:08,876 --> 00:47:11,336
Speaker 2: Somewhere a queen is weeping. Somewhere a king has no wife.

889
00:47:11,636 --> 00:47:15,386
Speaker 3: That's where I got it from. That's Hendrix. I got

890
00:47:15,446 --> 00:47:18,606
Speaker 3: two lessons from Hendrix. One was that song. Moon Cries Mary,

891
00:47:18,646 --> 00:47:22,226
Speaker 3: and the other was the switch in songs on live television.

892
00:47:22,546 --> 00:47:24,406
Speaker 3: They were the two things I learned from Jimi Hendrix.

893
00:47:24,446 --> 00:47:27,816
Speaker 3: I never tried to play like him. I actually truthfully

894
00:47:28,256 --> 00:47:29,996
Speaker 3: love him most of all. It's not to say you

895
00:47:30,036 --> 00:47:32,636
Speaker 3: don't love him as a guitar player, but I love

896
00:47:32,656 --> 00:47:35,646
Speaker 3: him as a ballad singer because I can hear the

897
00:47:35,666 --> 00:47:40,006
Speaker 3: Curtis Mayfield and everything in him. And that's truthfully the

898
00:47:40,046 --> 00:47:42,506
Speaker 3: two things that I actually took directly from him is

899
00:47:43,086 --> 00:47:46,726
Speaker 3: that That's the conception of the lyrics of Alison is

900
00:47:46,766 --> 00:47:49,706
Speaker 3: that song. And not that song in its entirety, just

901
00:47:49,726 --> 00:47:52,696
Speaker 3: those couplets. You add that to ghetto child and you've

902
00:47:52,716 --> 00:47:55,516
Speaker 3: got like a pretty heady mix of cues.

903
00:47:55,556 --> 00:47:58,436
Speaker 1: I don't think you were influenced by this song, but

904
00:47:59,196 --> 00:48:00,856
Speaker 1: it reminds me of a song. I think you talked

905
00:48:00,896 --> 00:48:04,106
Speaker 1: about liking once, which is Paul Simon's tenderness.

906
00:48:04,486 --> 00:48:04,886
Speaker 2: Oh God.

907
00:48:06,086 --> 00:48:09,046
Speaker 1: And the line there of course is, but there's no

908
00:48:09,106 --> 00:48:14,966
Speaker 1: tenderness beneath your honesty. And to me, That's exactly....

909
00:48:15,136 --> 00:48:17,016
Speaker 2: Everything put together falls apart as well.

910
00:48:17,696 --> 00:48:22,916
Speaker 1: What's happening, the balance of tenderness and honesty in Alison,

911
00:48:23,256 --> 00:48:24,176
Speaker 1: I find it heartbreaking.

912
00:48:24,956 --> 00:48:30,876
Speaker 2: Thank you. Well, it was intended to be. You just

913
00:48:30,896 --> 00:48:32,536
Speaker 2: couldn't talk about these things out loud at that time.

914
00:48:32,556 --> 00:48:33,276
Speaker 2: It was very difficult.

915
00:48:34,156 --> 00:48:36,196
Speaker 3: People don't want to hear you say these things. I

916
00:48:36,236 --> 00:48:38,296
Speaker 3: can say them now because it's 50 years ago and

917
00:48:38,316 --> 00:48:39,236
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter anymore.

918
00:48:40,176 --> 00:48:40,336
Speaker 4: Yeah.

919
00:48:42,496 --> 00:48:47,256
Speaker 2: But, of course, I had studied Paul Simon really, really hard.

920
00:48:48,546 --> 00:48:50,586
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, when I first had April Come,

921
00:48:50,606 --> 00:48:52,206
Speaker 3: She Will and things like that, I wanted to play

922
00:48:52,246 --> 00:48:54,226
Speaker 3: like that. I tried to finger pick. I couldn't grow

923
00:48:54,266 --> 00:48:57,426
Speaker 3: my fingernails. I didn't know that you put varnish on them.

924
00:48:57,466 --> 00:48:59,846
Speaker 3: I kept breaking off and I had to take to,

925
00:49:00,186 --> 00:49:01,646
Speaker 3: you know, then I got a little louder as a

926
00:49:01,686 --> 00:49:03,666
Speaker 3: singer and then I realized I had to play with

927
00:49:03,686 --> 00:49:07,546
Speaker 3: a pick. But when he got to that period, like

928
00:49:07,566 --> 00:49:10,286
Speaker 3: from things like Peace Like a River, where he's obviously

929
00:49:10,346 --> 00:49:12,906
Speaker 3: acknowledging all of these things that it's kind of like

930
00:49:12,946 --> 00:49:17,306
Speaker 3: his gumbo. It's like he's actually putting the people who

931
00:49:17,346 --> 00:49:20,266
Speaker 3: his music he loved in the arrangements. That's One Soul

932
00:49:20,286 --> 00:49:23,376
Speaker 3: of Towns and so forth. And Ted Ennis is one

933
00:49:23,376 --> 00:49:27,656
Speaker 3: of those songs. it's and yeah it's it's more knowing

934
00:49:27,776 --> 00:49:30,816
Speaker 3: and it's more mature than my songs but then he

935
00:49:30,876 --> 00:49:33,656
Speaker 3: was more mature he was older than me when he

936
00:49:33,696 --> 00:49:36,036
Speaker 3: wrote that song it wasn't the same age as I

937
00:49:36,076 --> 00:49:39,626
Speaker 3: was when I wrote us and I was 21 or

938
00:49:39,626 --> 00:49:42,366
Speaker 3: 22 maybe just 22.

939
00:49:41,366 --> 00:49:42,926
Speaker 1: Well I think you've got every reason to be.

940
00:49:42,886 --> 00:49:45,906
Speaker 3: Proud of it thank you anyway thank you uh not

941
00:49:45,946 --> 00:49:47,646
Speaker 3: as good as Paul's songs though not not as good

942
00:49:47,706 --> 00:49:50,906
Speaker 3: as Anybody that's written an American tune, you can't challenge them.

943
00:49:51,446 --> 00:49:52,006
Speaker 2: You just can't.

944
00:49:52,566 --> 00:49:52,706
Speaker 3: Right.

945
00:49:53,226 --> 00:49:55,086
Speaker 2: All for that matter, The Seven Psalms, which is a

946
00:49:55,126 --> 00:49:56,356
Speaker 2: beautiful piece of music.

947
00:49:56,876 --> 00:49:59,516
Speaker 1: This brings us to I'm Not Angry. I think the

948
00:49:59,676 --> 00:50:04,016
Speaker 1: obvious question, because you were always described as the angry

949
00:50:04,056 --> 00:50:07,236
Speaker 1: young man. Were you, in fact, angry at this point

950
00:50:07,296 --> 00:50:07,726
Speaker 1: in your life?

951
00:50:08,946 --> 00:50:12,106
Speaker 2: No, I think I was probably just frustrated at the weight.

952
00:50:12,246 --> 00:50:14,566
Speaker 3: And it could have been as, isn't it said that

953
00:50:15,486 --> 00:50:18,676
Speaker 3: like when the ship comes in, was written about being

954
00:50:18,716 --> 00:50:19,896
Speaker 3: denied a hotel room.

955
00:50:21,036 --> 00:50:21,656
Speaker 1: No, I didn't know that.

956
00:50:21,936 --> 00:50:23,696
Speaker 2: I've read that story. I don't know whether it's true.

957
00:50:23,756 --> 00:50:25,576
Speaker 2: It's repeated quite often.

958
00:50:26,556 --> 00:50:28,526
Speaker 3: You know the song I'm talking about, the Bob Dylan song,

959
00:50:29,106 --> 00:50:30,546
Speaker 3: that it was when he was on tour with John

960
00:50:30,586 --> 00:50:32,406
Speaker 3: Baez and they didn't like the look of him because.

961
00:50:32,246 --> 00:50:33,526
Speaker 2: He was a bit scruffy and they wouldn't give him

962
00:50:33,546 --> 00:50:33,746
Speaker 2: a room.

963
00:50:34,246 --> 00:50:38,046
Speaker 3: And he wrote that whole song about that one barrier

964
00:50:38,086 --> 00:50:39,726
Speaker 3: being put up. But of course the song means so

965
00:50:39,746 --> 00:50:43,456
Speaker 3: much more. And I think quite a lot of the time,

966
00:50:44,436 --> 00:50:46,756
Speaker 3: I just found the language that I thought represented things

967
00:50:46,836 --> 00:50:49,516
Speaker 3: I felt, but I'm not angry. How can I be

968
00:50:49,596 --> 00:50:51,956
Speaker 3: angry if I'm the guy that wrote Arson? You can

969
00:50:51,976 --> 00:50:56,536
Speaker 3: be both on different days, but that's about betrayal, that song.

970
00:50:58,176 --> 00:51:00,616
Speaker 3: But the song, musically speaking, I think the song's a

971
00:51:00,636 --> 00:51:03,356
Speaker 3: little bit of play acting as well. Again, in a

972
00:51:03,566 --> 00:51:08,686
Speaker 3: sort of songwriter, certain thing combination, I think when people say, oh,

973
00:51:08,706 --> 00:51:12,466
Speaker 3: this is very true to life, it's very autobiographical, and

974
00:51:12,506 --> 00:51:12,966
Speaker 3: what's the word?

975
00:51:13,006 --> 00:51:13,546
Speaker 2: Confessional.

976
00:51:14,116 --> 00:51:17,616
Speaker 3: Hate that you know for me the absence of craft

977
00:51:18,376 --> 00:51:20,856
Speaker 3: is the thing that stops it from being enduring often

978
00:51:21,516 --> 00:51:23,236
Speaker 3: now that's not true of everything there are some very

979
00:51:23,316 --> 00:51:26,126
Speaker 3: raw unfiltered records that are that i really dearly love

980
00:51:27,006 --> 00:51:30,466
Speaker 3: but they talk about johnny mitchell's like blue being confessional

981
00:51:31,426 --> 00:51:33,046
Speaker 3: oh i don't know i don't know whether you're right

982
00:51:33,066 --> 00:51:36,346
Speaker 3: about that listen to the craft listen to the songwriting

983
00:51:36,726 --> 00:51:42,206
Speaker 3: technique that underpins it musically and lyrically and even if

984
00:51:42,226 --> 00:51:45,766
Speaker 3: it was spontaneous composition its composition at such a high

985
00:51:45,826 --> 00:51:48,556
Speaker 3: level that it belies the idea that any old idea

986
00:51:48,596 --> 00:51:51,356
Speaker 3: would have, would have served the means, you know, and

987
00:51:51,396 --> 00:51:54,096
Speaker 3: I suppose that's what I'm talking about. I'm not trying

988
00:51:54,156 --> 00:51:59,166
Speaker 3: to retrospectively claw back the idea that was ever any

989
00:51:59,226 --> 00:52:02,286
Speaker 3: frustration or anger, but it was much more just not

990
00:52:02,346 --> 00:52:04,246
Speaker 3: knowing who you are, what you are, what you need

991
00:52:04,266 --> 00:52:07,326
Speaker 3: to be. That's expressed a lot in the This Is

992
00:52:07,386 --> 00:52:11,956
Speaker 3: Model songs particularly, but which I sort of, mention that

993
00:52:12,016 --> 00:52:14,036
Speaker 3: in the in the notes for when we take these

994
00:52:14,056 --> 00:52:16,656
Speaker 3: songs in the road with the attractions and those and

995
00:52:16,696 --> 00:52:19,316
Speaker 3: the songs i just newly written with them in mind

996
00:52:19,376 --> 00:52:22,276
Speaker 3: obviously overwhelmed the my mystery songs to the last degree

997
00:52:23,496 --> 00:52:27,156
Speaker 3: i'm not angry as it's don't fear the reaper you

998
00:52:27,196 --> 00:52:30,006
Speaker 3: know the gothic riff of it the basic chord signals

999
00:52:30,026 --> 00:52:33,526
Speaker 3: is logical and that's what i felt it's like i

1000
00:52:33,566 --> 00:52:35,366
Speaker 3: love that don't fear the reaper i think that's from

1001
00:52:35,466 --> 00:52:37,266
Speaker 3: that time it was on the radio and i think

1002
00:52:37,346 --> 00:52:39,516
Speaker 3: i just sort of like Oh, I need a riff

1003
00:52:39,576 --> 00:52:41,616
Speaker 3: like that. And of course, I never told anybody that.

1004
00:52:42,156 --> 00:52:45,616
Speaker 3: McPhee just did what he felt and it was perfect.

1005
00:52:45,656 --> 00:52:48,076
Speaker 3: What he did was perfect. I couldn't play like that.

1006
00:52:48,136 --> 00:52:50,216
Speaker 3: I couldn't play that kind of lead guitar that he does.

1007
00:52:50,296 --> 00:52:53,326
Speaker 3: And he gave it that kind of rock and roll feeling.

1008
00:52:54,826 --> 00:52:59,086
Speaker 3: But then the chorus is quite musical. I know you,

1009
00:52:59,106 --> 00:53:00,586
Speaker 3: I know what you're doing.

1010
00:53:01,126 --> 00:53:04,926
Speaker 2: I know where you've been. And that could be a

1011
00:53:05,316 --> 00:53:09,396
Speaker 2: pop song from any year. That's not a rock and roll. melody,

1012
00:53:10,256 --> 00:53:11,236
Speaker 2: rock and roll motif.

1013
00:53:12,756 --> 00:53:16,106
Speaker 1: You say it's about betrayal. It seems to me a

1014
00:53:16,166 --> 00:53:20,666
Speaker 1: lot of your songs, not particularly that song, you were

1015
00:53:20,706 --> 00:53:23,246
Speaker 1: writing at a time, I think probably more so in

1016
00:53:23,286 --> 00:53:29,106
Speaker 1: England than here, when appearances, propriety, being a certain figure

1017
00:53:29,146 --> 00:53:33,366
Speaker 1: in public meant much more. And you are often writing

1018
00:53:33,426 --> 00:53:39,746
Speaker 1: about the conflict of that in people's private lives. their

1019
00:53:39,906 --> 00:53:40,546
Speaker 1: dark sides.

1020
00:53:41,766 --> 00:53:43,706
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know whether I was standing back and

1021
00:53:43,766 --> 00:53:46,176
Speaker 3: writing about them. It was just happening quickly. But like

1022
00:53:46,236 --> 00:53:49,136
Speaker 3: I say, the character to some degree was being formed

1023
00:53:49,176 --> 00:53:51,756
Speaker 3: and the character overtook me or took me over, whichever

1024
00:53:51,816 --> 00:53:54,916
Speaker 3: way around you want to say it. In 77, there's

1025
00:53:54,956 --> 00:53:59,596
Speaker 3: a little clip that the fourth CD in this collection,

1026
00:54:00,756 --> 00:54:04,396
Speaker 3: Becoming the Attractions, it's a sort of documentary account of

1027
00:54:04,436 --> 00:54:08,366
Speaker 3: the band coming into existence, having these Miami's True Songs

1028
00:54:08,386 --> 00:54:12,056
Speaker 3: to play initially. And then we have pop stardom of

1029
00:54:12,096 --> 00:54:15,496
Speaker 3: a minor kind. And I included even just a fragment

1030
00:54:15,796 --> 00:54:19,576
Speaker 3: of an interview. I love that interview. This woman could

1031
00:54:19,616 --> 00:54:23,086
Speaker 3: not have been kinder. She was genuinely curious as to

1032
00:54:23,126 --> 00:54:25,226
Speaker 3: whether I would survive the process of being in a

1033
00:54:25,246 --> 00:54:28,246
Speaker 3: pop group. And she asked me straight out if I was,

1034
00:54:28,926 --> 00:54:31,486
Speaker 3: are you an angry songwriter? And I answered the question

1035
00:54:31,526 --> 00:54:35,326
Speaker 3: quite literally because I had no guile when somebody just

1036
00:54:35,386 --> 00:54:38,306
Speaker 3: asked you directly, Whereas what you would usually get was

1037
00:54:38,346 --> 00:54:41,066
Speaker 3: somebody who would come with a complicated theory that, you know,

1038
00:54:41,126 --> 00:54:44,606
Speaker 3: a music journalist particularly, come with a very complicated theory

1039
00:54:44,626 --> 00:54:47,556
Speaker 3: about what they had worked out and wanted you to

1040
00:54:47,616 --> 00:54:50,716
Speaker 3: agree with that, with your answer. So my response to

1041
00:54:50,756 --> 00:54:55,676
Speaker 3: that was sometimes to really exaggerate what I felt. So

1042
00:54:55,776 --> 00:54:58,396
Speaker 3: hence the revenge and guilt thing. I said that when

1043
00:54:58,436 --> 00:55:01,476
Speaker 3: I was, I'd had about five Pernos. And I was

1044
00:55:01,516 --> 00:55:03,626
Speaker 3: just like unguarded. I thought, okay, you want to hear,

1045
00:55:03,666 --> 00:55:04,586
Speaker 3: you want to get here angry?

1046
00:55:04,886 --> 00:55:05,306
Speaker 2: Here it is.

1047
00:55:06,106 --> 00:55:09,166
Speaker 3: And a guy bought it and repeated it. And I mean,

1048
00:55:09,186 --> 00:55:10,916
Speaker 3: I know this guy. He's a very good writer. I mean,

1049
00:55:10,976 --> 00:55:13,236
Speaker 3: he was a very good writer. But I don't know

1050
00:55:13,276 --> 00:55:16,256
Speaker 3: that he knew that I was putting him on. I

1051
00:55:16,276 --> 00:55:18,716
Speaker 3: think he took it at face value. And even if

1052
00:55:18,756 --> 00:55:20,656
Speaker 3: he did know I was putting him on, everybody else

1053
00:55:20,716 --> 00:55:23,156
Speaker 3: thought it was at face value. And that became the

1054
00:55:23,196 --> 00:55:25,916
Speaker 3: calling card for those first few years until it didn't

1055
00:55:25,936 --> 00:55:30,356
Speaker 3: serve purposes. I also recognized that by saying something like,

1056
00:55:30,436 --> 00:55:33,206
Speaker 3: I'm not angry, which obviously doesn't sound like that on

1057
00:55:33,226 --> 00:55:33,686
Speaker 3: the record.

1058
00:55:33,706 --> 00:55:33,786
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1059
00:55:34,816 --> 00:55:39,196
Speaker 3: It's about those circumstances, about holding back the most explosive

1060
00:55:39,236 --> 00:55:42,216
Speaker 3: part of your anger about the situation that's described in

1061
00:55:42,436 --> 00:55:45,776
Speaker 3: the betrayal that's described in the song. There's a degree

1062
00:55:45,796 --> 00:55:50,156
Speaker 3: of distance in that. There's a degree of songwriting. This

1063
00:55:50,216 --> 00:55:52,396
Speaker 3: is not to say it's not emotional, but to say

1064
00:55:52,416 --> 00:55:54,916
Speaker 3: there's a degree of craft. Like I said, the melody

1065
00:55:54,976 --> 00:55:57,606
Speaker 3: of the release is proof of that. It isn't just

1066
00:55:57,736 --> 00:56:02,466
Speaker 3: raw and filtered kind of raving. So I think that

1067
00:56:02,526 --> 00:56:06,086
Speaker 3: I worked out quite quickly there were two things that

1068
00:56:06,106 --> 00:56:08,566
Speaker 3: could keep people away from me. One was seeming like

1069
00:56:08,586 --> 00:56:10,646
Speaker 3: you shouldn't ask me and the other was I'm going

1070
00:56:10,666 --> 00:56:13,166
Speaker 3: to drink a little bit here and I won't hear you.

1071
00:56:14,546 --> 00:56:17,266
Speaker 3: And in that space, I heard Wayne Shorter say this

1072
00:56:17,326 --> 00:56:21,766
Speaker 3: in an interview, so I take Wayne's example. He said

1073
00:56:21,806 --> 00:56:24,446
Speaker 3: when he drank brandy, it created a zone around him

1074
00:56:24,466 --> 00:56:26,866
Speaker 3: in which he could do the creative work. And I

1075
00:56:27,106 --> 00:56:31,286
Speaker 3: absolutely understand that idea. That's not the reason to become

1076
00:56:31,306 --> 00:56:35,046
Speaker 3: a heroin addict or something, you know. But For a

1077
00:56:35,046 --> 00:56:38,926
Speaker 3: little while, the gin kept people away from me. They

1078
00:56:38,946 --> 00:56:41,476
Speaker 3: couldn't be where I was. They couldn't call me in

1079
00:56:41,496 --> 00:56:41,996
Speaker 3: that zone.

1080
00:56:42,956 --> 00:56:43,276
Speaker 2: Nobody.

1081
00:56:44,686 --> 00:56:47,276
Speaker 1: Well, the bad news is I'm a journalist with a theory.

1082
00:56:47,996 --> 00:56:48,576
Speaker 1: So get ready.

1083
00:56:48,996 --> 00:56:49,516
Speaker 2: Okay.

1084
00:56:51,536 --> 00:56:52,776
Speaker 1: Take some of that coconut water.

1085
00:56:52,996 --> 00:56:53,296
Speaker 2: Yes.

1086
00:56:54,376 --> 00:56:59,296
Speaker 1: What I was saying earlier about people's dark lives being revealed.

1087
00:57:00,236 --> 00:57:03,516
Speaker 1: To me, it animates some of your best early work.

1088
00:57:03,536 --> 00:57:07,316
Speaker 1: Sunday's Best. manner of time, even King of America.

1089
00:57:07,336 --> 00:57:07,416
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1090
00:57:07,896 --> 00:57:12,016
Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of examples. You said confessional.

1091
00:57:12,576 --> 00:57:15,806
Speaker 1: We live in a very different age now. We don't

1092
00:57:15,846 --> 00:57:18,246
Speaker 1: live in an age where people feel they have to

1093
00:57:18,406 --> 00:57:21,866
Speaker 1: hide their dark side. If anything, it's the first person.

1094
00:57:21,886 --> 00:57:22,866
Speaker 2: That's their calling card. Yeah.

1095
00:57:22,986 --> 00:57:24,166
Speaker 1: It's the first person.

1096
00:57:24,246 --> 00:57:27,386
Speaker 3: I would never last five minutes. I wouldn't have lasted

1097
00:57:27,426 --> 00:57:30,906
Speaker 3: the scrutiny of social media or anything if I'd started

1098
00:57:31,426 --> 00:57:34,556
Speaker 3: now with the way I felt. I mean, there are

1099
00:57:34,576 --> 00:57:38,246
Speaker 3: lines in the song that if you knew how I felt,

1100
00:57:38,726 --> 00:57:39,666
Speaker 3: it'd bury me alive.

1101
00:57:41,406 --> 00:57:44,526
Speaker 1: I'm not worried about you revealing anything. What I'm asking is,

1102
00:57:45,286 --> 00:57:48,866
Speaker 1: as a writer, is it harder to write now about

1103
00:57:48,926 --> 00:57:54,106
Speaker 1: people where there's not that binary or at least that.

1104
00:57:54,866 --> 00:57:57,496
Speaker 3: I never think about it because, you know, I don't

1105
00:57:57,546 --> 00:58:01,536
Speaker 3: know that I cast myself in the present tense in

1106
00:58:01,556 --> 00:58:04,326
Speaker 3: that sense, you know. I have a lot of songs,

1107
00:58:04,886 --> 00:58:06,226
Speaker 3: and I have a lot of songs which I don't

1108
00:58:06,346 --> 00:58:10,676
Speaker 3: serve and would serve me. And if I have any

1109
00:58:10,736 --> 00:58:14,036
Speaker 3: time left, it might be to address some of those,

1110
00:58:14,776 --> 00:58:15,696
Speaker 3: even ahead of these songs.

1111
00:58:16,156 --> 00:58:16,576
Speaker 1: Interesting.

1112
00:58:16,976 --> 00:58:20,076
Speaker 3: Yeah. That's the honest truth, and I'm not saying that

1113
00:58:20,116 --> 00:58:21,896
Speaker 3: in a melodramatic way. I'm not saying, oh, I'm about

1114
00:58:21,916 --> 00:58:24,046
Speaker 3: to leave. I'm not planning on going anywhere.

1115
00:58:24,066 --> 00:58:26,606
Speaker 2: But whether I even.

1116
00:58:26,606 --> 00:58:30,486
Speaker 3: Consider some of these things, they've been well considered, and

1117
00:58:30,526 --> 00:58:33,796
Speaker 3: I'm very grateful for the attention And of course, everybody

1118
00:58:34,636 --> 00:58:39,176
Speaker 3: that's skeptical about this set will immediately observe that these

1119
00:58:39,216 --> 00:58:42,896
Speaker 3: records have been reissued before. And they've been anthologized even

1120
00:58:43,496 --> 00:58:47,146
Speaker 3: to a degree, but never quite as encompassing as this set.

1121
00:58:47,686 --> 00:58:49,916
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you one more question, which is

1122
00:58:49,976 --> 00:58:52,926
Speaker 1: that you mentioned your father in this set. You talk

1123
00:58:52,966 --> 00:58:56,526
Speaker 1: a lot about him in your wonderful book. You also

1124
00:58:56,586 --> 00:58:58,746
Speaker 1: talk about your mother who didn't play an instrument, but

1125
00:58:58,786 --> 00:59:00,526
Speaker 1: you said understood music.

1126
00:59:01,146 --> 00:59:01,236
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1127
00:59:01,256 --> 00:59:02,406
Speaker 1: In a very profound way.

1128
00:59:02,506 --> 00:59:02,886
Speaker 2: Much more.

1129
00:59:03,386 --> 00:59:06,486
Speaker 1: Do you remember when she first listened to this record,

1130
00:59:06,566 --> 00:59:07,146
Speaker 1: what she thought?

1131
00:59:08,126 --> 00:59:10,106
Speaker 3: You know, when she passed, I went and had to

1132
00:59:10,166 --> 00:59:13,026
Speaker 3: clear her house, and she had pristine copies of all

1133
00:59:13,046 --> 00:59:15,766
Speaker 3: those early records. She really followed what I was doing.

1134
00:59:16,436 --> 00:59:19,836
Speaker 3: Mama didn't play an instrument, didn't sing in public, but

1135
00:59:19,916 --> 00:59:22,316
Speaker 3: had a good musical sense. And why I know that

1136
00:59:22,356 --> 00:59:25,256
Speaker 3: is true, because she left school at 14 and was

1137
00:59:25,316 --> 00:59:29,476
Speaker 3: a record sales assistant. And she used to say when

1138
00:59:29,496 --> 00:59:31,476
Speaker 3: she discovered she had some kind of ear was when,

1139
00:59:32,136 --> 00:59:34,906
Speaker 3: before there were, of course, long, long before there were computers,

1140
00:59:34,946 --> 00:59:38,766
Speaker 3: there were just record catalogs. And people would come in

1141
00:59:38,846 --> 00:59:41,846
Speaker 3: requesting songs. And she said, well, what's the name of

1142
00:59:41,866 --> 00:59:44,886
Speaker 3: the song? And they'd go, I don't know. Well, who's

1143
00:59:44,926 --> 00:59:45,166
Speaker 3: it by?

1144
00:59:45,266 --> 00:59:45,786
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1145
00:59:46,246 --> 00:59:47,606
Speaker 3: Well, how are you going to say it? It goes

1146
00:59:47,646 --> 00:59:50,546
Speaker 3: like this. And they'd start singing some semblance of the melody.

1147
00:59:51,486 --> 00:59:53,606
Speaker 3: And she would sometimes recognize it and be able to

1148
00:59:53,666 --> 00:59:56,046
Speaker 3: point them in the direction of a recording or even

1149
00:59:56,086 --> 00:59:57,706
Speaker 3: the sheet music so they could play it for themselves.

1150
00:59:58,666 --> 01:00:02,066
Speaker 3: She became known as the girl who knew a bit

1151
01:00:02,086 --> 01:00:05,006
Speaker 3: about dance, band, and jazz. That's how my parents met,

1152
01:00:05,546 --> 01:00:08,736
Speaker 3: because my dad was a local trumpet player. And, you know,

1153
01:00:08,756 --> 01:00:11,356
Speaker 3: it sounds like a sentimental story, but it really just

1154
01:00:12,296 --> 01:00:14,796
Speaker 3: highlights the importance of the physical object of the record,

1155
01:00:15,136 --> 01:00:18,516
Speaker 3: certainly in my lifetime. She had friends who were more

1156
01:00:18,576 --> 01:00:21,796
Speaker 3: knowledgeable still, would put records in my way that, you know,

1157
01:00:21,876 --> 01:00:25,316
Speaker 3: much later on became the foundation of my ability to

1158
01:00:25,356 --> 01:00:30,146
Speaker 3: be able to hear orchestral themes as separate to song-like form,

1159
01:00:30,186 --> 01:00:33,526
Speaker 3: you know. And after my dad left, she was the

1160
01:00:33,626 --> 01:00:36,566
Speaker 3: one who raised me. She was at the last show

1161
01:00:36,606 --> 01:00:40,106
Speaker 3: I played in Liverpool before the emergency. And that was

1162
01:00:40,126 --> 01:00:43,256
Speaker 3: the last time I saw her because of the restrictions

1163
01:00:43,316 --> 01:00:47,686
Speaker 3: on travel and quarantine. Every time I'd go to visit her,

1164
01:00:48,316 --> 01:00:51,636
Speaker 3: they'd change the rules and it wouldn't be possible. So unfortunately,

1165
01:00:51,676 --> 01:00:54,216
Speaker 3: she passed on that time. I mean, she had lived

1166
01:00:54,236 --> 01:00:58,756
Speaker 3: a very difficult last few years after a stroke. So

1167
01:00:59,496 --> 01:01:01,736
Speaker 3: I know that music was a great solace to both

1168
01:01:01,776 --> 01:01:06,496
Speaker 3: my parents as they dealt with the respective issues, My

1169
01:01:06,516 --> 01:01:11,136
Speaker 3: Mother a Stroke, My Father Parkinson's, music penetrated and bore

1170
01:01:11,156 --> 01:01:13,916
Speaker 3: them up in that, for which I'm grateful.

1171
01:01:14,056 --> 01:01:14,376
Speaker 2: Okay.

1172
01:01:14,976 --> 01:01:16,356
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for coming in.

1173
01:01:16,616 --> 01:01:18,356
Speaker 2: It's been just wonderful. It's been a pleasure. It's really,

1174
01:01:18,586 --> 01:01:22,206
Speaker 2: really very surprising in a lovely way. Thank you. I

1175
01:01:22,246 --> 01:01:23,926
Speaker 2: do mean that sincerely. Thank you.

1176
01:01:26,686 --> 01:01:28,946
Speaker 4: Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose with

1177
01:01:29,006 --> 01:01:32,186
Speaker 4: marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer

1178
01:01:32,206 --> 01:01:36,116
Speaker 4: is Ben Talladay. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.

1179
01:01:36,416 --> 01:01:38,836
Speaker 4: If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider

1180
01:01:38,856 --> 01:01:42,396
Speaker 4: subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription

1181
01:01:42,416 --> 01:01:46,036
Speaker 4: that offers bonus content and ad-free listening for $ 4. 99 a month.

1182
01:01:46,356 --> 01:01:49,686
Speaker 4: Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcast Subscriptions. And if

1183
01:01:49,706 --> 01:01:51,846
Speaker 4: you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and

1184
01:01:51,866 --> 01:01:54,226
Speaker 4: review us on your podcast app. Our theme music is

1185
01:01:54,246 --> 01:01:55,906
Speaker 4: by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmond.