Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my ball in arid egg Friday
Speaker 1: Egg Friday, Friday, Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to
Speaker 1: run off the golf course.
Speaker 3: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another edition of the
Speaker 3: Frida Egg Podcast. Today we are live from the Players
Speaker 3: Championship and we are joined by Steve Winslav, who's the
Speaker 3: vice president of the PGA Tours Design Services and Player Liaison.
Speaker 2: Steve, welcome and.
Speaker 1: Board, thank you. It's good to be here, good to
Speaker 1: be here with you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so big week for you, obviously with the changes
Speaker 3: that one of you know, America's most iconic and memorable
Speaker 3: golf courses. You know, the big changes are the twelfth hole,
Speaker 3: and then there's some other small subtle changes and you know,
Speaker 3: completely new greens, green surfaces. But first, I think a
Speaker 3: lot of people would love to hear a little bit
Speaker 3: about your background.
Speaker 1: Sure Landscape Architecture, University of Georgia been here with the
Speaker 1: with the PGA Tour now for twenty years. Originally started
Speaker 1: with the tpc's development of the tPCS and still still
Speaker 1: work very actively with the tPCS, but have evolved more
Speaker 1: into PGA tour side and sanctioned events and working on
Speaker 1: golf course modifications, significant golf course modifications basically any PGA
Speaker 1: tour sanction venue and then new venue assessment as well.
Speaker 3: So how did you get into the architecture world, like
Speaker 3: you know, was there a moment that said I want
Speaker 3: to I want to design golf courses?
Speaker 1: And yeah, the moment was early on actually before I
Speaker 1: before I went to college, I was doing landscape art,
Speaker 1: was always working outside, working down in South Florida in
Speaker 1: tree farms and bedding plants, horticulture, landscape design, build and
Speaker 1: always felt though I wanted to get into bigger projects
Speaker 1: who were doing more small small projects. I always wanted
Speaker 1: to get into larger scale sites at that same time
Speaker 1: as when I got introduced to the game of golf,
Speaker 1: sort of sort of late, but I got introduced to
Speaker 1: it at that point in time and started studying it
Speaker 1: more and realizing that it really tied into sort of
Speaker 1: the path that I was heading on. Once I did
Speaker 1: switch from aviation into ultimately into landscape architecture and work.
Speaker 1: When I went to University Georgia, I went specifically to
Speaker 1: them and said this is what I wanted to try
Speaker 1: to emphasize on a golf course design. They helped me
Speaker 1: cater cater classes towards towards that program and then get
Speaker 1: out did the golf design industry at that point when
Speaker 1: I graduated ninety to sort of going through a smaller
Speaker 1: downturn than than just that. We just went through and
Speaker 1: had a lot of recommendations just to go into golf
Speaker 1: courst construction and the guys I got that advice from
Speaker 1: it was very very influential advice and and today I
Speaker 1: respect that. And you know, the segment I remember to
Speaker 1: most was to be a good architect, you got to
Speaker 1: learn how to construct it and and and today I
Speaker 1: still still feel feel very strongly about that. And so
Speaker 1: I got into golf cours construction and ultimately with the
Speaker 1: mindset of getting it into golf courst design and had
Speaker 1: the opportunity to work with some of the top architects
Speaker 1: in the world at the same time working with the
Speaker 1: tour once that he evolved being able to work with
Speaker 1: a player consultant. We always had a player as a
Speaker 1: consultant involved with the with the project, so worked as
Speaker 1: a liaison basically between the developer, the architect and the
Speaker 1: player consultant. So I really had the opportunity to grasp
Speaker 1: a lot of different varieties from different architects and feedback
Speaker 1: from from a lot of great players into the role
Speaker 1: that it's evolved into today.
Speaker 3: So curious as you've worked with all these players, like
Speaker 3: who would you say is kind of like the sharpest
Speaker 3: architectural player mind that maybe doesn't do you know, isn't
Speaker 3: known for doing.
Speaker 2: Any architectural work like that.
Speaker 3: You've come across where you've like been like, wow, you know,
Speaker 3: these these thoughts are really interesting.
Speaker 1: They all had interesting aspects and they and they all
Speaker 1: got engaged in the in the project, the opportunity to
Speaker 1: work with Lanny Watkins and Myrtle Beach and Lanny was
Speaker 1: working with the FASIO group at that time, and it
Speaker 1: was really a dynamic relationship there to take Lanny's strategic
Speaker 1: mindset and the take that with the strategic and yet
Speaker 1: artful side of the of the FASIO design concept, blend
Speaker 1: that together. And that's really what you named me the
Speaker 1: most about how this how our processes have evolved into
Speaker 1: the tPCS. He's really taking that blend and and putting
Speaker 1: it together and Lady was just one of one of
Speaker 1: many of some of the some some great players that
Speaker 1: have had the opportunity to work with and that has
Speaker 1: the role evolved and more so into the player liaison.
Speaker 1: It gives me the opportunity to really meet with all
Speaker 1: our players and and go over and have discussions with
Speaker 1: them about depending golf course modifications or you know, post
Speaker 1: post tournament comments on changes that have been made to
Speaker 1: utilize that feedback into UH into the next project. However
Speaker 1: it comes about mm hmm.
Speaker 3: I think that you know, there's some younger guys that
Speaker 3: are getting into the architecture earlier.
Speaker 2: You know, you've got Zach Blair who's really into it.
Speaker 3: And then you know George Speet's got the nine at
Speaker 3: the par three course at ut that's going in. So
Speaker 3: it's it's refreshing seas. You know, it's some younger guys
Speaker 3: getting into the I really.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just found out about I just read about
Speaker 1: Zach Blair. I haven't I haven't spoken to Zach yet,
Speaker 1: but I just read about his his interest in the
Speaker 1: little course that I think he's thinking about working on
Speaker 1: back home Utah. I think it was which I found
Speaker 1: very very unamoring the first time I've I've heard about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got you got to talk to him.
Speaker 3: He's very passionate, he's got a lot of you know,
Speaker 3: good good ideas and.
Speaker 2: Absolutely it's uh, he's he's a he's a friend.
Speaker 1: Of the pod absolutely, and Jeff Ogilvie is also, I
Speaker 1: think a brilliant mind from a from a golf architect standpoint. Uh,
Speaker 1: Who's who's having the opportunity now to to begin expressing
Speaker 1: himself in the design world with his team. I think
Speaker 1: he's assembled a great team of of guys surrounding him
Speaker 1: as well and looking forward to seeing more of their
Speaker 1: work at some point.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Mike Clayton, we had on He's A.
Speaker 2: He's he's one of my one of my favorite favorite
Speaker 2: guys that talk.
Speaker 1: How can you how can you not like Mike?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that perfect segue with Mike Clayton is you know,
Speaker 3: talking about technology and you know, maybe that could be
Speaker 3: some of the impetus to the changes that at Sawgrass
Speaker 3: beyond the major one being twelve, but some distance lengthening.
Speaker 3: You know, when I first walked around it, I was thinking, Hey,
Speaker 3: this golf course, like you know, it's it's lengthy and
Speaker 3: it's being a more bonders. But the more I thought
Speaker 3: about it, it's like when it originally was designed, it
Speaker 3: didn't take driver out of anybody's hands.
Speaker 2: So is that you know, some of the lengthening.
Speaker 3: Efforts kind of where you know, putting driver back in
Speaker 3: play for the longer hitters.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's it's it's an element that we
Speaker 1: that we look at, but not the emphasis. I mean
Speaker 1: the emphasis about the emphasis of this golf course in
Speaker 1: this tournament and really the elements of Pete Dye into
Speaker 1: the strategy of the golf course really is and I
Speaker 1: think you hear it from the players. Is it it
Speaker 1: forces a player really to to be on beyond with
Speaker 1: basically all elements of the game, from driving to to
Speaker 1: their approach shot proximity to you know, their scrambling ability
Speaker 1: around the greens and putting obviously get in the hole.
Speaker 1: It's and it's yes, has has driver probably has driver
Speaker 1: been you know, taken away now as the technology has
Speaker 1: changed in certain golf holes, Sure it has, but we
Speaker 1: look at that and still say, though, how has the
Speaker 1: golf hole changed? Has it changed significantly negatively due to that?
Speaker 1: And if it has, then we'll look at that further.
Speaker 1: If it hasn't, then we just still let let the
Speaker 1: golf hole play out the way it's been designed and
Speaker 1: the ways playing today versus you know, maybe the way
Speaker 1: it's playing thirty years ago. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I mean, it's a it's interesting and a
Speaker 3: lot of the die I think die gets such a
Speaker 3: bad rap, but there's so much strategy in die courses.
Speaker 3: You know, a lot of people like to just say, like, oh,
Speaker 3: he's a penal architect, But I think the different in
Speaker 3: how much and you're in this role is that you know,
Speaker 3: how much different you know TPC Sawgress was built for professionals,
Speaker 3: so obviously you know, tighter fairways there could be strategy
Speaker 3: and tighter fairways as opposed to if it was a
Speaker 3: regular public like at you know, a public facility that
Speaker 3: was built for public play is built for it, so
Speaker 3: you know, the shorter, the narrower fairways can lead to strategy.
Speaker 2: You know, in terms of you know, like how when.
Speaker 3: You work with professionals, how much different is it, you know,
Speaker 3: designing a golf course and making changes for pros rather
Speaker 3: than you know, thinking them first rather than public.
Speaker 1: It's I mean, it's it's different. I mean a lot
Speaker 1: of architects don't they have a back te per se,
Speaker 1: but back to you at the respective club gets little
Speaker 1: use when in this world that that I live in,
Speaker 1: you know, it's all emphasis on the back to you.
Speaker 1: I can tell you how many times I make site
Speaker 1: visits and we start walking around with a group and
Speaker 1: we start looking at tea's and all of a sudden
Speaker 1: there's vistas or whatever you can't necessarily see because that
Speaker 1: tea hasn't really been been used a lot. So it
Speaker 1: starts there. And uh, but yeah, I mean you look
Speaker 1: at Pete Dye and what Pete dies about. He's about angles,
Speaker 1: and the angles then are emphasized by a narrowing of
Speaker 1: the fairways, not necessarily from a horizontal standpoint. Yeah, to
Speaker 1: some of you, it is horizontal because there's a smaller percentage
Speaker 1: of whatever's there is really the effective zone to take
Speaker 1: advantage on your on your second shot. You know that
Speaker 1: if you stray off to a certain other side, it's
Speaker 1: going to give you an undesired line into the into
Speaker 1: the green. And that's that's really some of the some
Speaker 1: of the basic strategy to him. So it's this was
Speaker 1: a tree line you know, this is a forested site
Speaker 1: per se, So he's used the trees, you know, in
Speaker 1: a similar manner as he used them at Harbor Town.
Speaker 1: Not as narrow and scale as Harbor Town it is,
Speaker 1: but there's some there's some you know similarities between between
Speaker 1: here and and Harbor Town and the use of the trees,
Speaker 1: and you know, you see some of the set up.
Speaker 1: This year, we tried to emphasize a little bit more
Speaker 1: of the use of the trees by having less primary
Speaker 1: rough and having some cases no primary rough between between
Speaker 1: faaraway and groups of trees. For instance, side of one
Speaker 1: and right side of eleven. The right side of six,
Speaker 1: you'll see there's no primary rough now between fair away
Speaker 1: and pine stronger and groups of trees, to help try
Speaker 1: to utilize that in the ground contours, you know, to
Speaker 1: emphasize some of that strategy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Eleven's is like forty six yards wide that I mean,
Speaker 3: it's got some really good width. I mean, I grew
Speaker 3: up playing a really strategic Pete Die course in South Florida,
Speaker 3: and something I have learned over like you know, hundreds
Speaker 3: of rounds playing there was that you know, if you
Speaker 3: take that aggressive line and take on the risk your
Speaker 3: reward and you have a much but every notch you
Speaker 3: go away from the that that line he wants you
Speaker 3: to take on. Every notch you go away, that second
Speaker 3: shot becomes so much tougher.
Speaker 2: But I think one of the unique things is that
Speaker 2: with designing.
Speaker 3: For professional players, the ego and the mentality of like,
Speaker 3: if I have a clear shot in the fair way,
Speaker 3: like the shot it's right there, and I think I
Speaker 3: can hit it, but your margin for error just is
Speaker 3: so small.
Speaker 2: And I think that's one.
Speaker 3: Of the beauties of Stackgrass is that it's it's a constant,
Speaker 3: you know, kind of battle and getting you know, a
Speaker 3: professional to aim, you know, twenty yards left of the
Speaker 3: flag with when he's right in the middle of the
Speaker 3: fairway is a tough thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. And that's and that's what they've learned
Speaker 1: about the nuances of this place. And I listened to
Speaker 1: some of the questions Q and A with some of
Speaker 1: our players about you know, some of the younger players
Speaker 1: come out here and playing this for the first time
Speaker 1: or second or third time, and how much of a
Speaker 1: chance did they have out here. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: nuances to it. They come in with game obviously, but
Speaker 1: there's a lot of nuances to this golf course to
Speaker 1: be learned, you know, when whether they learn it the
Speaker 1: first go around or whether it takes them a few
Speaker 1: more go arounds to understand the nuances, they're definitely out there.
Speaker 1: You know, we tried to do something. You know, that's
Speaker 1: some of what we ultimately tried to do into the
Speaker 1: end of the readis onto the twelfth hole as well.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of what you just talked about.
Speaker 3: So let's let's talk about twelve. It's the it's like
Speaker 3: the star of the show. So you took a you know,
Speaker 3: a hole they felt a lot of people felt was
Speaker 3: just kind of a you know, it was a lapse
Speaker 3: in the in the tournament and you you know, everybody
Speaker 3: loves these short driveable par fours and you've.
Speaker 2: Turned it in.
Speaker 3: It's got a lot of different yardages that can play
Speaker 3: and you know, they we'll put a we'll put some
Speaker 3: photos of the twelfth in the into the podcast bio.
Speaker 3: But you know, the narrow layup area if you're gonna
Speaker 3: lay up, and then a green that's got a lot
Speaker 3: of contour, a lot of different pins, and you know
Speaker 3: there's water down the left side of a bunk a
Speaker 3: waste like bunker down the left and then uh, there's
Speaker 3: nothing good right if you bail. So tell tell us
Speaker 3: a little bit about, you know what, how you kind
Speaker 3: of went about, you know, building the hole.
Speaker 1: Sure, it started several years ago, as we we always do,
Speaker 1: and we just we always evaluate as many aspects of
Speaker 1: the tournament as we can, and in this case here
Speaker 1: looking at the competitive aspect and looking at the twelfth hole,
Speaker 1: it's just from what it was, you know, thirty five
Speaker 1: years ago to what it is today. There isn't really
Speaker 1: a lot of thought and or intimidation per se on
Speaker 1: the t shot as there was originally. At the same time,
Speaker 1: we were looking for opportunities to increase the scoring mobility
Speaker 1: some fan excitement earlier into the back nine sequence. We
Speaker 1: already have it, you know, sixteen seventeen eighteen, it's there.
Speaker 1: So we looked at for ways was there an opportunity
Speaker 1: earlier on the back nine, and we gravitated to the
Speaker 1: twelfth hole. So what you see today out there as
Speaker 1: a product of there's a lot more fan enhancement opportunities
Speaker 1: out there is there's a one hundred and eighty degree
Speaker 1: amphitheater now around the twelfth green. You know there's a
Speaker 1: spectator now now right of twelve green. You have viewing
Speaker 1: now for the thirteenth hole as well. The tea box
Speaker 1: selection where we were put side of the tee took
Speaker 1: advantage of an existing spectator mound along the fourteenth hole
Speaker 1: on the right side of fourteen that really wasn't taking
Speaker 1: advantage of before. So now we've got plenty of viewing
Speaker 1: room behind the twelve tee. But strategically, as you said,
Speaker 1: it is a fairly narrow fairway. It's about a twenty
Speaker 1: eight yard wide fairway. It slopes left to right, fairway
Speaker 1: bunker left, trees to the right, and that slope then
Speaker 1: is just magnified by a landform, a tribute to the
Speaker 1: old landform that was here. It used to be a
Speaker 1: large landform on the left side of the golf hole
Speaker 1: that was between the tea and the green. That landform
Speaker 1: went down that's now where the fairway bunker is. But
Speaker 1: we took that element and repositioned it on the right
Speaker 1: side through the fairway. So as a as a person
Speaker 1: choosing to not go for the grain in two excuse me,
Speaker 1: a green on their drive is laying up. They're hitting
Speaker 1: roughly two and twenty yard tee shot. What we tried
Speaker 1: to do was narrow the fairway effectively by having really
Speaker 1: the emphasis of the of that layup be on the
Speaker 1: left half of the fairway. As the landform that I'm
Speaker 1: referring to is every yard you go right of center,
Speaker 1: the right a yard of the right part of the
Speaker 1: green basically becomes hidden.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: And so the further right your tee shot drifts on
Speaker 1: that layup, you could be totally obscured into the green
Speaker 1: and see no surface. You see flag or flagstick, but
Speaker 1: may not see any surface with water left and a
Speaker 1: green sloping right to left.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I was walking it.
Speaker 3: And if you if you bail right in the pins
Speaker 3: back right, I mean you've got no angle, You've got
Speaker 3: the tree that kind of on the right edge of
Speaker 3: the green, and then you and then you can't see anything.
Speaker 3: So it really, you know, it asks for the valiant
Speaker 3: a row of play. So so let's let's hear where
Speaker 3: where are you bailing?
Speaker 2: If you if you're if you're a pro and and
Speaker 2: you you you're you need to bail, Like, what what's
Speaker 2: your play?
Speaker 1: Well, that's what they're that's what they're still figuring out
Speaker 1: out there right now, you know, you know they're looking
Speaker 1: at the right side of the green. There's there's twelve
Speaker 1: yards right of the green of closely own area. It's
Speaker 1: got some contour to it. There's a pop bunker right
Speaker 1: of the green, two more further right of the green.
Speaker 1: But you know, the the guys are trying to figure
Speaker 1: out that that nuance. You know, the the challenge that
Speaker 1: we try to place and is designing a green complex
Speaker 1: that's that can defend as much as possible a wedge
Speaker 1: from eighty to one hundred yards of the guy not
Speaker 1: going for it, but at the same time trying to
Speaker 1: make it receptive enough for player choosing to go for
Speaker 1: it with whether it's driver or a three wood or
Speaker 1: whatever club that that may be. That's that's really one
Speaker 1: of the biggest challenges. And finding a balance between that
Speaker 1: those elements is we'll see where we see where we
Speaker 1: landed in that in that balance. But yeah, the the guys,
Speaker 1: guys don't want to be far right because far right
Speaker 1: there they're up on landforms up above the green and
Speaker 1: rough grass pitching to a green running away from them.
Speaker 1: So they know, you know, where's the miss, Well, there
Speaker 1: is miss area to the right. They gotta be they
Speaker 1: gotta know that there's certain pins that they can probably
Speaker 1: get to, and there's certain pins are gonna be challenging
Speaker 1: to get to from that right hand side. Or do
Speaker 1: I stay short and just end up out try to
Speaker 1: stay up out in the approach and then try to
Speaker 1: pitch your chip into various whole locations, or would I
Speaker 1: go further back so money options for them to take on.
Speaker 3: Uh So the left side falls off and you know
Speaker 3: if you if you're a little too far left, it's
Speaker 3: you're you're gonna probably get wet, which I think. You know,
Speaker 3: it's a short hole. You gotta it's got to have
Speaker 3: some spice to it. You know, there's got to be
Speaker 3: And uh, I'm curious, you know, if you know, like
Speaker 3: how much area in that fair away? Would you say
Speaker 3: you have to like what you know, if it's firm
Speaker 3: and fast, like what half of that fair away if
Speaker 3: you hit is there a distinct fall off point?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean it. You know, the approach slopes right
Speaker 1: to left. There's a lot of right to left going
Speaker 1: on out there. There's a little portion in the green
Speaker 1: that does slope to the right to help to set
Speaker 1: up the back right hole location and even defend the
Speaker 1: front right hole location. But the right half of the approach,
Speaker 1: whatever that wid is, the right half of that approach
Speaker 1: is usable for a player hitting a draw in there.
Speaker 1: It depends on the really depends on the trajectory of
Speaker 1: that draw and you know, and how much spin there
Speaker 1: is to it. But you gotta favor the right half
Speaker 1: of the approach. The more that ball drifts to the left,
Speaker 1: the more that shot should have more of a cut
Speaker 1: to it to try to hold the slope because it
Speaker 1: does start moving moving to the left. But part of
Speaker 1: the feedback that we got them going back to the
Speaker 1: water hazard from a minute, you know, Pete Die has
Speaker 1: been consulted throughout this entire process. I've spent a lot
Speaker 1: of time with him here on property a few years
Speaker 1: ago when we were going through the initial conceptual phases
Speaker 1: and then a lot just through a lot of personal
Speaker 1: consultation with them and the keeping them updating where we
Speaker 1: are throughout this construction process. The first element really was
Speaker 1: the addition of the water hazard, and and that was
Speaker 1: how does the water relate to the green? You know,
Speaker 1: does is it right on the green or or is
Speaker 1: it offset from the green, which right now we're seven
Speaker 1: eight yards offset left of the green. But then when
Speaker 1: we started engaging our our players, our player directors that
Speaker 1: are on our board and are some past champions, you know,
Speaker 1: we got some feedback about drop. You know, if a
Speaker 1: player enters the water hazard, well where they get where
Speaker 1: they where are you gonna be able to drop from them?
Speaker 1: And so we oriented the water hazard as it as
Speaker 1: it moves towards the tee away from the green, the
Speaker 1: water hazard actually moves away from the line of play
Speaker 1: further to the left, thus facilitating the opportunity for a
Speaker 1: player to drop in a closer proximity to the green,
Speaker 1: assuming he just slightly drifted offline and entered entered the
Speaker 1: hazard closely. So then he drops in three and he
Speaker 1: can still four drops in two and has an opportunity
Speaker 1: to to still still get up and down for park.
Speaker 1: And that was part of that thought process that we
Speaker 1: went into with this is uh you know, yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a penalty shot, but yet there's still an opportunity to
Speaker 1: to walk away with the four.
Speaker 3: It's interesting the hero play is the is the cut.
Speaker 3: There's an ultimate hero play because of the dry.
Speaker 1: To take it over to hazard a little bit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it started towards the hazard.
Speaker 3: The draw is safer, but it's that I mean, that's
Speaker 3: a harder shot to hit because.
Speaker 2: Of the slope, and you know, you lose a lot.
Speaker 3: But like the real hero play is is that high
Speaker 3: cut over the water.
Speaker 2: It is full, it favors the bolt.
Speaker 1: And our and our winds are typically out of the east,
Speaker 1: which is right to left on this golf hole here
Speaker 1: or so if they if they are hitting a cut
Speaker 1: and you know they're holding it up a little bit
Speaker 1: under the wind and hopefully it's landing software m hm.
Speaker 3: So you know, I'd love to talk a little bit
Speaker 3: about how you guys have all this plethora of data
Speaker 3: in the shot link data, Like how much does that
Speaker 3: use when you guys are looking at at making alterations
Speaker 3: to you know here in any any TPC.
Speaker 1: Well, it's a tremendous, absolutely tremendous asset and tremendous resource.
Speaker 1: Made a presentation several years ago back to the A
Speaker 1: S g C A about the use of shot link
Speaker 1: and still even in its early infancy stages, but it's
Speaker 1: a tremendous resource that gives us a you know, a
Speaker 1: snapshot stroke trails, uh, where the ball lands and stroke
Speaker 1: trails of how they get from point A to point B,
Speaker 1: probably their way around the golf course, scoring averages, proximity,
Speaker 1: the whole averages, scrambling abilities. It's a it's a great
Speaker 1: it's a great resource and blessed to be able to
Speaker 1: have have that data. And and and I shared that data
Speaker 1: with the other architects when we get involved in other
Speaker 1: modifications UH anywhere, you know, we're hosting PJ Tour events.
Speaker 1: UH shared that data with them and it's been a
Speaker 1: great resource for them as well and a great learning
Speaker 1: tool for them. And yeah, it comes definitely coming to
Speaker 1: play here. We studied, you know, all the other reachable
Speaker 1: part fours UH on tour and you know, looked at
Speaker 1: their dats and their data and stats and you know,
Speaker 1: and looked at the elements of them and try to
Speaker 1: figure out which ones we want to incorporate here in
Speaker 1: the twelfth hole.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm. It's it's cool.
Speaker 3: I think that's you know, that analytics of going into
Speaker 3: architecture is going to be a kind of a big
Speaker 3: wave to see. It'll be interesting with all these shot
Speaker 3: tracking apps that are coming up, how that data can
Speaker 3: eventually be used for even commonplay architecture.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you're you're you're definitely seeing seeing the
Speaker 1: tour player use the data and there's so much analytics
Speaker 1: and mathematics now going into their thought process and players.
Speaker 1: You know, I think we're gonna use you know, go
Speaker 1: back to stats on the twelfth hole. Well okay, well
Speaker 1: you know I know what my stats are normally with
Speaker 1: this club selection from this distance, and so I'm like
Speaker 1: more comfortable with that, or you know, is it worthwhile
Speaker 1: to take on take on take on the risk with it?
Speaker 1: But it really gives us, you know, tremendous resource that
Speaker 1: not a lot of people have have access to.
Speaker 2: So I, you know, I want to You're you're a
Speaker 2: busy guy this week.
Speaker 3: So I've got a couple of kind of quicker questions
Speaker 3: that I'm curious about.
Speaker 2: So if if the tour was going to bring.
Speaker 3: One kind of under the radar that not a lot
Speaker 3: of court people might know about course into the TPC
Speaker 3: stable and they said, you're picking it, what course would
Speaker 3: it be?
Speaker 1: Put me on a spot like that. Oh if I
Speaker 1: can answer that one off the top of my head,
Speaker 1: do you got me on on on that question? I mean,
Speaker 1: there's there's obviously some some some great golf courses out there.
Speaker 1: From from an architectural standpoint that you know, all of
Speaker 1: us in the golf architecture world, you know, study, you know,
Speaker 1: some of the preferences that that that I have are
Speaker 1: some more of the you know, some of the influences
Speaker 1: that that I've had just personally are from the sand Belt.
Speaker 1: A lot of time that I did spend with with
Speaker 1: Mike Layton that he he took me when when I
Speaker 1: first went out there and and studied the sand Belt
Speaker 1: golf courses. That's that's inspired me. So you know, I
Speaker 1: love Vellos, I love Kingston Heath, Royal Melbourne and uh
Speaker 1: yeah sure, you know, kings and Heath would probably be.
Speaker 2: One of them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the World Cup out there this year, I mean
Speaker 3: that place, just the bunkering is.
Speaker 1: Is phenomenal and I like it. I like both kins
Speaker 1: and Heath and Royal Melbourne. They're they're too totally contrasting
Speaker 1: golf courses with the scale of the of the of
Speaker 1: the properties and the scale of the golf holes within
Speaker 1: the properties. Kinks and Heaths more small compact, but yet
Speaker 1: still defends itself pretty well with the tour players of today.
Speaker 1: There are single digits. I think composite winning scores there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's uh they it's it shows that distances
Speaker 3: and you know everything is uh but a.
Speaker 1: Great golf courses. You know, we've hosted President's Cup at
Speaker 1: Roller Melbourne World Cup.
Speaker 3: Another one going to the President's Cup, I mean the
Speaker 3: International President's Cup. Roster is like really stout the so
Speaker 3: uh You've been doing a lot of work in South Korea.
Speaker 2: Rey for is it the c I m B.
Speaker 1: Actually it's a it's a newtory event that will follow
Speaker 1: be the week after CIMB which is in Malaysia. This
Speaker 1: is in South Korea on the island of Jju on
Speaker 1: the southern end of the peninsula. It's the tournament will
Speaker 1: be called the c J Cup at Nine Bridges be
Speaker 1: contested at the Nine Bridges Golf Venue and Jju.
Speaker 3: Wellen, So tell us a little bit about what we
Speaker 3: can expect from that course.
Speaker 1: Currently, there have been been there since September working with
Speaker 1: their architect Dave Dale from Golf Plan on Get it Ready.
Speaker 1: It's a it's a beautiful place. Mount Holla is a
Speaker 1: volcano in the in the center of the center of
Speaker 1: this island, and this golf course is sighted up the
Speaker 1: side slopes of the volcano in some very sort of
Speaker 1: mellow sloping land. Dave categorizes the design of the golf
Speaker 1: course sort of a little bit of Scottish Highlands and it's
Speaker 1: got that type of type of feel to it. It's
Speaker 1: up nineteen hundred feet in elevation, so there's some elevation
Speaker 1: to it. The climate really unique micro climate's been working
Speaker 1: there throughout the winter and it's been some pretty harsh
Speaker 1: environments up there, and head down to the airport down
Speaker 1: down at sea level and climate changes one hundred percent,
Speaker 1: so that's net. It's it's a it's a beautiful golf course,
Speaker 1: beautiful setting, a lot of pot bunkers that we're right
Speaker 1: actually right now sort of reinforcing some of thement revetted
Speaker 1: walls actually with a durabunker synthetic turf product which is
Speaker 1: really neat to emphasize that element that they've chose to
Speaker 1: use in the design out there and and and really
Speaker 1: make them pop. So bunting wise be pretty dramatic, and
Speaker 1: it's it's neat. I think the players a players will
Speaker 1: like it. It's a it's a neat place to.
Speaker 2: Go and primetime golf, so you'll absolute bit that's I love.
Speaker 3: I love events that you get that prime time coverage.
Speaker 3: It's it's so much, so fun. So it'll be good
Speaker 3: time to showcase the course and your work there.
Speaker 1: Will be good, you know. It's uh, we're really thankful
Speaker 1: for CJ. And then then their sponsorship a ten year
Speaker 1: agreement to play this event over there.
Speaker 3: Uh huh So then uh, you know, Jacksonville, if you
Speaker 3: know you were taking sawgrass out for listeners, you know,
Speaker 3: where should they play in Jacksonville if they you know,
Speaker 3: if they're complimenting sagrass trip, where where are the gems
Speaker 3: outside here where you would be playing?
Speaker 1: Honest with you, yeah, I haven't played a lot because
Speaker 1: of my traveling schedule around here, but I like, you know,
Speaker 1: there's some there's some neat variety of golf courses out here.
Speaker 1: You've got the World Golf Village golf courses both the
Speaker 1: Slammer and Squire and the Kingdom Bear, two totally unique
Speaker 1: golf course. Obviously, the King of Bears your one opportunity
Speaker 1: to play a collaboration between Nicholas and Palmer, especially now
Speaker 1: and with Palmer's passing, it's a that's a neat legacy.
Speaker 1: And then you've got some old, you know, pretty neat tracks.
Speaker 1: Brentwood used to host the Jacksonville Jacksonville Open decades ago.
Speaker 1: Just some really neat, little little municipal tracks around that
Speaker 1: that are still out there as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I'm going to try and sneak down
Speaker 2: to Hyde Park.
Speaker 1: That was the other last one I was getting to say,
Speaker 1: a good Hide park. I haven't played yet. I've been
Speaker 1: here for twenty years and just haven't made my way
Speaker 1: over there. Yeah, come down, I will. Stanley Townson, Absolutely,
Speaker 1: there's some good stuff there that some hidden jewels, especially
Speaker 1: even as you get a little bit further south down
Speaker 1: the coast, there's some some neat hitten jewels like that.
Speaker 3: So one of the things that we always do for
Speaker 3: our closing bit is overrated underrated. So I'm gonna give
Speaker 3: you a couple of things. Do you you say overrated
Speaker 3: or underrated?
Speaker 2: All right?
Speaker 3: So we're gonna say the impact of grain on putts
Speaker 3: from the PGA tour player perspective, Oh, it's undert underrated
Speaker 3: all right. We will go with pot bunkers.
Speaker 1: From a PGA tour players perspective. They're very effective, So
Speaker 1: I would say.
Speaker 2: Underrated, underrated. All right, we will go with.
Speaker 3: Let's see, we'll say the British Isles courses, you know,
Speaker 3: the brit We'll say the Open, Championship rote of courses,
Speaker 3: like if you were doing a trip there, not PGA Tour.
Speaker 2: You know, overrated, underrated.
Speaker 1: It's all good. That's just all good stuff as well
Speaker 1: over there. Yeah, every one of them, I mean, and
Speaker 1: they all get such unique characteristics amongst them all, So
Speaker 1: I don't know how you can say it's over Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's on everybody's bucket list. It should be if it's not.
Speaker 3: HU and then uh, then we'll we'll say with last question,
Speaker 3: one TPC course that people.
Speaker 2: Should go see outside of Sawgrass.
Speaker 1: One TPC course, Well, you know you've got I'd say
Speaker 1: you get a toss up between Scottsdale and San Antonio
Speaker 1: and two unique environments. And San Antonio gives you thirty
Speaker 1: six golf holds out there and two unique different types
Speaker 1: of golf courses that you can play in the in
Speaker 1: the same location. You got to Normandy Design, hosts of
Speaker 1: Valero Texas Open, and you got a Pete Die golf
Speaker 1: course there as well, just hosted the champions Store events
Speaker 1: and uh, just totally unique properties. Uh with the with
Speaker 1: the San Antonio vegetation to it. You get normous courses
Speaker 1: sort of down along floodplains and creeks, and but yet
Speaker 1: has almost one hundred feet elevation change as you go
Speaker 1: down the routing and back up the routing. Peace Golf
Speaker 1: Course is sort of set on these on these ridge
Speaker 1: tops and routes out and it's got non returning nines.
Speaker 1: Just has these beautiful vistas of preservation lands surrounding as
Speaker 1: golf holes. Unique unique experience there.
Speaker 2: So I'd go San Antonio hill country.
Speaker 1: Hill country.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, That's how I used to live in Austin.
Speaker 3: I you know it, it's unbelievably you think of Texas,
Speaker 3: it's unbelievably hilly there.
Speaker 1: It is. I worked in I worked in Dallas. I
Speaker 1: was with the a Y Bring for for a little while,
Speaker 1: and uh it's out there, and uh for some opportunity
Speaker 1: to get down to Austin and the whole country is like, wow,
Speaker 1: this is pretty neat. It's it's good, there's good stuff.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of good golfers.
Speaker 3: Well yeah, yeah, I uh, well, we're looking forward to
Speaker 3: to seeing the changes in action, and you know, thanks
Speaker 3: for coming on, and and uh, we'll sure everybody will
Speaker 3: have their their opinions.
Speaker 2: You know they will.
Speaker 1: That's a guarantee.
Speaker 4: Yea the good you know, Mackenzie used to say, if
Speaker 4: if somebody didn't hate it, you know, he wondered what
Speaker 4: he did wrong. That's true, I think if you read
Speaker 4: that oral like you read back on what happened in
Speaker 4: eighty two, like.
Speaker 2: I mean, these guys so similar.
Speaker 1: Think.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been hearing a lot of buzz about you know,
Speaker 3: people are bad about the left side, but it's like
Speaker 3: what do you want to just.
Speaker 2: Get a free birdie? Like you know, so all right, well,
Speaker 2: thanks so much for coming on.
Speaker 1: Enjoyed it, Thanks for having me, all right
Speaker 2: To confer another