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Speaker 1: Just a quick heads up. Today's episode talks about trafficking.

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Speaker 2: Just enjoy this kind of like straw Man Enemy, instead

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Speaker 2: of dealing with the rock within their own circles.

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Speaker 3: There Are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridge

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Speaker 1: Toad and this is there Are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: The Human Trafficking Hotline has identified eighty two thousand, three

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Speaker 1: hundred and one cases of human trafficking since it's inception.

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Speaker 3: Back in two thousand and seven.

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Speaker 1: And the important of an issue as trafficking is it's

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Speaker 1: also true that it's become a moral panic, completely untethered

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Speaker 1: from the reality of what trafficking actually looks like, to

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Speaker 1: the point where Carly Russell, the twenty five year old

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Speaker 1: woman in Alabama who lied about being abducted by traffickers,

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Speaker 1: repeated a pretty well worn urban legend that traffickers use

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Speaker 1: babies to lure women as part of her hoax. Traffickers

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Speaker 1: are probably not using babies or strollers to lure women

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Speaker 1: into being trafficked, and no, one is probably putting anything

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Speaker 1: on your car to mark you for being trafficked, And no,

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Speaker 1: your child is not likely to be snatched from a

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Speaker 1: target parking lot by a stranger and souls into an

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Speaker 1: underground trafficking network. Yet viral conspiracy theories online would help

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Speaker 1: us all believe that this isn't just a common occurrence,

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Speaker 1: but that the most powerful people in the country are

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Speaker 1: also involved, and that the only person who can stop

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Speaker 1: it is a rugged white man coming to save the day.

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Speaker 1: In the new film Sound of Freedom, Jim Cavezel, who

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Speaker 1: you might remember as Christ from Passion of the Christ,

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Speaker 1: stars as a fictionalized version of Tim Ballard, formerly of

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Speaker 1: the kind of anti trafficking organization Operation Underground Railroad. The

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Speaker 1: movie has become popular in part because of the moral

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Speaker 1: panic around trafficking, and rather than showing a realistic portrayal

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Speaker 1: of what trafficking and the work that goes into preventing it,

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Speaker 1: looks like it leans on the same kind of misrepresentations

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Speaker 1: that fuel the online moral panic around trafficking, turning the

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Speaker 1: whole thing into a big hero fantasy.

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Speaker 2: I'm Miles Clee. I am a culture writer at Rolling

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Speaker 2: Stone focused mostly on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: Miles writes about how conspiracy theory is like this one

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Speaker 1: take off online. How did you come to be someone

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Speaker 1: who covers conspiracy theories and all of these weird pockets

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Speaker 1: of the web, Like what draws you to them?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I probably started covering the Internet about

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Speaker 2: ten years ago when I was working for a website

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Speaker 2: called The Daily Dot, which was totally Internet focused, and

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Speaker 2: I really got into weird, niche subcultures. I've always loved

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Speaker 2: memes and how they were created and kind of tracing

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Speaker 2: the archins of a lot of that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: And you know, conspira these are something that travel very

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Speaker 2: much in the same way they go viral. They get

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Speaker 2: these web forums, they get these communities that coalesce around them.

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Speaker 1: This is something Miles and I have in common the Internet,

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Speaker 1: more specifically, explaining some of the weirder, darker pockets of

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Speaker 1: the Internet and why what's going on in them is

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Speaker 1: worth paying attention to.

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Speaker 2: As a reporter, I always liked to explain what was

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Speaker 2: going on in these really kind of like niche and

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Speaker 2: sort of sort of impenetrable communities that get built around

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Speaker 2: a lot of a lot of jargon and a lot

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Speaker 2: of ideology that you know, the casual reader, if they're

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Speaker 2: just encountering a website like that for the first time,

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Speaker 2: they have no idea what's going on. And sometimes these

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Speaker 2: places are also hard to find or you know, these

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Speaker 2: conversations are happening in weird little pockets of the deep web,

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Speaker 2: so people don't even know that they're happening. For example,

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Speaker 2: you know, unless you're on the QAnon telegram feeds, you're

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Speaker 2: not going to see the conversations that are happening there

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Speaker 2: and on what people are saying. So I like bringing

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Speaker 2: that stuff into the light for larger audience and explaining

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Speaker 2: as best I can how these movements get started, why

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Speaker 2: people get drawn into them and radicalized by them, and

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Speaker 2: you know, in this case, what we're going to talk about,

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Speaker 2: you know, how how recruitment doesn't always reflect you know,

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Speaker 2: the truth of the really dark stuff going on, because

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Speaker 2: on the surface, it can be one thing, it could

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Speaker 2: be save the children, anti trafficking, and then that leads

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Speaker 2: you down the path to a much more dangerous sort

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Speaker 2: of belief set.

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Speaker 1: What is it about trafficking, sex trafficking that has become

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Speaker 1: this like very sticky thing, this very sticky like conspiracy

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Speaker 1: that draws so many, like especially extremists on the right,

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Speaker 1: Like why do you think that is such a sticky conspiracy?

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Speaker 1: And such a good entry point to some of these

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Speaker 1: extremist beliefs and thinking.

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Speaker 2: I think it's interesting that when hardcore conservatives talk about trafficking,

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Speaker 2: they're only talking about child sex trafficking, which is one

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Speaker 2: very specific thing that is not really the large section

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Speaker 2: of the problem. Adults who are being forced into labor

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Speaker 2: and you know, not children being explicitly sexually assaulted and

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Speaker 2: all that. The reason they focus on children, I think

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Speaker 2: would bring us back to something like the nineteen eighties

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Speaker 2: Satanic Panic, which had a lot of the same themes.

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Speaker 2: Children are a great sort of talking point to use

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Speaker 2: if you want to demonize and dehumanize your enemy, you know,

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Speaker 2: crimes against children, like, what could be worse than that?

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Speaker 2: That's what a lot of the rhetoric is focused on,

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Speaker 2: is that, you know, anyone who disagrees with them is

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Speaker 2: you know, pro child abuse. They're in on it. They're

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Speaker 2: probably traffickers, they probably have child porn on their computers

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Speaker 2: and all that. It was a lot of the same

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Speaker 2: kind of demonization you would see in the Satanic Panic

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Speaker 2: in the eighties, which was also again focused on this

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Speaker 2: idea that children were being abused on this massive scale.

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Speaker 2: Trafficking is a hot onnon issue anyway, and when you

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Speaker 2: make it about children, and when you make it about

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Speaker 2: sexual abuse, you ensure the most extreme possible reactions. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: because it's a horrible thing to consider. They know that

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Speaker 2: they can play on people's emotions. And you know, a

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Speaker 2: lot of the responses I've gotten for doing a negative

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Speaker 2: review of this film are extremely heated because these people

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Speaker 2: have imagined a version of trafficking that is specifically focused

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Speaker 2: on hurting children, harvesting their organs, drinking their blood, all

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Speaker 2: this nonsense stuff that you know, got brought up in

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Speaker 2: the Satanic panic in the eighties as well. So they are,

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Speaker 2: you know, they're flying off the handle. And they got

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Speaker 2: involved in the first place sometimes because of you know,

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Speaker 2: harmless sounding campaigns like hashtags Save the Children, which was

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Speaker 2: really just a front for a qan on. Because once

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Speaker 2: you get people believing that, you know, two million children

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Speaker 2: are you know, they are always making up these numbers.

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Speaker 2: Two million children are just kidnapped off their street corners

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Speaker 2: every year. They have all these crazy statistics. Once you

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Speaker 2: start believing in that, then you believe, in your prime

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Speaker 2: to believe in much crazier conspiracy.

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Speaker 1: Theory trafficking and child sexual abuse is like a real issue.

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Speaker 3: It happens, it's a serious thing.

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Speaker 1: But the people who are the loudest in talking about

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Speaker 1: I guess I won't even say that, like things that

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Speaker 1: are sort of seemingly related, they're they're invested in this

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Speaker 1: fantasy version that almost never happens. Right, It is extremely

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Speaker 1: unlikely for a child to be snatched out of a

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Speaker 1: target parking lot or off of the street by a

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Speaker 1: stranger and then sold into trafficking. And yet the people

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Speaker 1: who talk about this the loudest, they are very invested

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Speaker 1: in this fantasy version and never invested in what is

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Speaker 1: actually more likely, Right, Adults being traffic for, you know,

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Speaker 1: having their labor exploited, you know, children being preyed on

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Speaker 1: by people they know, people in their communities. Those are

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Speaker 1: not necessarily issues that they seem very loud about, despite

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Speaker 1: the fact that those issues are quite.

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Speaker 3: A bit more common.

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Speaker 1: Why do they lend themselves towards the fantasy that's like

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Speaker 1: not happening.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, part of this is just denial about

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Speaker 2: the reality. You know, in the eighties, it was sort

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Speaker 2: of thought that people got the idea that like, you know,

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Speaker 2: daycare and nursery school teachers were abusing children ritualistically because

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Speaker 2: they were unable to deal with the fact that, you know,

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Speaker 2: it was becoming much more widely known that a lot

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Speaker 2: of this abuse happens within the family. And if you

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Speaker 2: are a religious person, if you are a rightly and

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Speaker 2: conservative person, it's really hard to accept the fact that

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Speaker 2: this thing that you kind of worship, this nuclear family,

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Speaker 2: like this can be the thing that creates harm to children.

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Speaker 2: A really hard thing to accept. And by the same token,

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Speaker 2: you know Jim Kvitzel, who in this movie is a

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Speaker 2: very devout Catholic. It's about Tim Ballard, who is a

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Speaker 2: devout Mormon. Both the Mormon Catholic Church have had indescribably

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Speaker 2: huge sexual abuse scandals related to children. They don't talk

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Speaker 2: about that at all, seemingly, and I think their attempt

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Speaker 2: to turn attention to their fantasy version has a lot

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Speaker 2: to do with not being able to face the abuse

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Speaker 2: that is in their own communities and that they maybe

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Speaker 2: even feel subconsciously complicit in. Yeah, you could be doing

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Speaker 2: you could be doing a lot of work to try

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Speaker 2: to expose pedophiles within the churches and within these conservative institutions, honestly,

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Speaker 2: but they don't do that because that would be too hard,

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Speaker 2: that would be admitting that they are on the wrong side.

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Speaker 2: So they make up, you know, a boogeyman of cabal

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Speaker 2: cable pedophiles that are that are Democrats, they are liberals,

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Speaker 2: they're Satanists there they are totally outside those conservative circles

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Speaker 2: so that they can, yeah, just just enjoy this kind

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Speaker 2: of like straw man enemy instead of dealing with the

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Speaker 2: rot within their own circles.

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Speaker 1: For folks who might not know, if you have not

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Speaker 1: if you've not heard of this film, then I envy

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Speaker 1: the life that you live on the internet.

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Speaker 3: But for folks who might not know, what is the

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Speaker 3: Sound of Freedom?

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Speaker 2: So The Sound of Freedom is a theoretically a thriller

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Speaker 2: drama based on the life of Tim Ballard, who's a

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Speaker 2: real guy, and he is the founder of something called

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Speaker 2: Operation Underground Railroad, which is a Utah based anti trafficking

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Speaker 2: organization which is focused on something called the rescue model,

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Speaker 2: or it's it's often criticized as the rescue industry by

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Speaker 2: other anti trafficking groups, something that's sort of counterproductive, exaggerated.

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Speaker 2: You know, the real work of fighting trafficking, as a

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Speaker 2: lot of these orgs say, is slow and bureau and

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Speaker 2: you know, takes into account, you know, care for victims

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Speaker 2: after they are brought out of these situations, a lot

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Speaker 2: of counseling, a lot of psychological work, whereas Oh you

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Speaker 2: Are is focused on the pr of heroics or apparent

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Speaker 2: heroics because they exaggerate all their missions and so on.

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Speaker 2: They are styled as a sort of you know, paramilitary

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Speaker 2: that goes into these third world countries. They can't operate

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Speaker 2: in the US, obviously, so they go abroad and they

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Speaker 2: claim to be you know, at best sort of helping

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Speaker 2: local law enforcement in these other countries. But as I say,

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Speaker 2: they have really distorted the truth of what they do

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Speaker 2: and been criticized by almost every legitimate human trafficking organization,

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Speaker 2: while sort of not completely endorsing QAnon ideas, but not

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Speaker 2: really doing that much to distance themselves either. So the

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Speaker 2: movie focuses on Tim. He's played by Jim Kvitzl. It

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Speaker 2: is supposed to be the story of how he went

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Speaker 2: from being a federal agent who did busts of guys

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Speaker 2: who were doing uploading child pornography to the web, went

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Speaker 2: from doing that to ultimately trying to hunt down actual pedophiles,

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Speaker 2: usually by posing as one himself, which makes for an

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Speaker 2: odd hero in the movie. I have to say, he's

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Speaker 2: seventy five percent of the time he's supposed to be

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Speaker 2: like acting as a pedophile, So a little weird to

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Speaker 2: be reading for that guy. They're just trying to ensnare

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Speaker 2: these you know, various nefarious people down in Colombia, And

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Speaker 2: in the end, he's really trying to go after this

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Speaker 2: one girl because the first boy who rescues in the

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Speaker 2: film is the brother of this other girl who is

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Speaker 2: still missing, and he has to go deeper and deeper

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Speaker 2: into foreign territory ultimately, like you know, into a jungle

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Speaker 2: controlled by Colombian rebels to rescue this girl, all of

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Speaker 2: which is made up, and it is being treated this

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Speaker 2: film as I should say, almost a documentary. It says,

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Speaker 2: you know, at the beginning, based on a true story,

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Speaker 2: you know, which you know there elements that are true.

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Speaker 2: There is a guy named Tim Ballard who pretends that

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Speaker 2: he does this stuff. And yeah, it it really hammers

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Speaker 2: this this this message that child sex trafficking is really bad,

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Speaker 2: which I don't know why you need a movie to

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Speaker 2: tell you that obviously that's not good. We don't need

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Speaker 2: to see it. Sort of depicted over and over as

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Speaker 2: it is in the film. It's very lurid. It's it's

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Speaker 2: almost the audience I was watching it with was sort

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Speaker 2: of just totally captivated with these scenes, these preludes to

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Speaker 2: like a child being abused by an adult in a

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Speaker 2: very voyeuristic, uncomfortable way. But you know, for the people

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Speaker 2: who see it and support the film, they come out

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Speaker 2: of it thinking they've basically done activism by h by

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Speaker 2: watching this and be raising awareness of the problem and

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Speaker 2: so on. That is what they're in it for. And

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Speaker 2: they're in it for this white savior narrative of this

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Speaker 2: guy Tim, this Mormon blonde kind of you know, fat

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Speaker 2: dude who says, enough of the red tape in Washington,

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Speaker 2: I'm going down there and I'll do it myself, damn it.

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Speaker 2: They just love this vigilante narrative. So yeah, that's the movie.

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Speaker 1: Even beyond I mean, yikes, even beyond some of the

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Speaker 1: like odious depictions of child sexual abuse, it just sounds

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Speaker 1: like a movie where you have a lot of questions

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Speaker 1: like the choice to make this the hero like narrative,

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Speaker 1: questions like oh, the choice to make the hero pretend

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Speaker 1: to be an abuser, But they just want to be

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Speaker 1: rooting for him. You know, a lot of a lot

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Speaker 1: of a lot of questions about some of the some

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Speaker 1: of the logic of the film, but you really hit

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Speaker 1: on something with this idea that I think there is

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Speaker 1: something very enticing to a certain audience of one white

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Speaker 1: guy kind of going rogue and rushing in and bringing

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Speaker 1: down an entire trafficking ring.

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Speaker 3: That is, that is sort of enticing to right wing extremists, right.

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Speaker 1: I think it mirrors how a lot of them talked

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Speaker 1: about Trump, but a lot of QAnon people especially talked

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Speaker 1: about Trump. And I also think that you know, when

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Speaker 1: you talked about what some actual anti trafficking work looks like.

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Speaker 1: It's not a guy kicking in a door and like

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Speaker 1: machine gunning down rebels and grabbing kids and running out

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Speaker 1: and then as soon as the bad guys are behind bars,

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Speaker 1: the kids are just fine and go back to their

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Speaker 1: normal lives.

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Speaker 3: The work is long term. It's probably pretty boring.

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Speaker 1: It probably involves a lot of like working with counselors

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Speaker 1: and things like that. But that's not what these people

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Speaker 1: are interested in. They're not interested in the long term,

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Speaker 1: boring work. If it's not somebody kicking in a door

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Speaker 1: and shooting a gun. They don't seem that invested, Like,

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Speaker 1: why is that narve so enticing?

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Speaker 2: Because you know it's it's revenge. You don't you don't

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Speaker 2: actually want to solve a problem. You want to you

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Speaker 2: want to take revenge on these people, and and and

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Speaker 2: in a violent way. I mean, the QAnon central tenant

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Speaker 2: is uh, the coming storm. You know, they were hoping

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Speaker 2: that Trump one day would just say, you know, ladies

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Speaker 2: and gentlemen, the storm was upon us. I have arrested, uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, several million pedophiles who were in top government

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Speaker 2: and media and entertainment positions. And you know, what they

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Speaker 2: really yearned for, as is made clear in some of

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Speaker 2: the death threats I've gotten, is like they want basically

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Speaker 2: public executions of people that they think have touched children

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Speaker 2: or whatever. That is. That is very explicit in in

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Speaker 2: the feedback I've gotten and in a lot of q

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Speaker 2: and On lore it is it is a pure violent fantasy.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I think I think it's that simple. I

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Speaker 2: think it's that I think it's a bloodlust. And you know,

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Speaker 2: they've made they've constructed the most unforgivable possible villains for

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Speaker 2: their worldview in order to kind of justify what they

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Speaker 2: maybe wanted anyway, which is just to execute democrats, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: you can't, you know, you can't. It's almost like you

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Speaker 2: can't muse about, you know, hanging Joe Biden from the

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Speaker 2: gallows unless you do the work to convince yourself that

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Speaker 2: he has sexually assaulted children. And so that's why they

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Speaker 2: always posting videos of Biden like sniffing kids or whatever

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Speaker 2: their obsession is, right, Like, yeah, I think Biden's a

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Speaker 2: weird has a weird, touchy relationship with the public, but

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Speaker 2: you do have to do some work to say, okay,

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Speaker 2: and he's actually in on this like pedophile cabal that's

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Speaker 2: run out of the pizza restaurant in DC, and we're

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Speaker 2: going to round all of them up and we will

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Speaker 2: all have like the best day in American history when

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Speaker 2: you know, all these people are hung from the gallows. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: they are trying to justify essentially what is already violent

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Speaker 2: feelings towards liberals on the left by you know, trying

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Speaker 2: to prove that they're that they're guilty of the worst

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Speaker 2: thing than any of us can imagine.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean side note, I live in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: And I will never forget the day that someone brought

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Speaker 1: a gun to Comet Ping Pong, and like what a.

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Speaker 3: I'll just never forget that day.

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Speaker 1: It just was like like something that I hadn't really

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Speaker 1: spent that much time looking into or like hearing about.

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Speaker 1: All of a sudden was like, oh, they brought like

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Speaker 1: people like they someone brought a gun. Like it really

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Speaker 1: was for me personally when all of this stuff that

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Speaker 1: you were talking about before, like these online weird extremist

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Speaker 1: pockets of the Internet, became very very real for me personally.

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Speaker 4: Let's take a quick break at her back.

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Speaker 1: Miles published a less than glowing review of Sound of

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Speaker 1: Freedom for Rolling Stone, and afterwards became a target of

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Speaker 1: extremists who argued that if anyone had anything negative to

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Speaker 1: say about the film, they must secretly be involved in

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Speaker 1: trafficking themselves. In fact, right before Miles and I spoke

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Speaker 1: for this very interview, protesters were gathering outside of Rolling

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Speaker 1: Stones's New York offices with signs referencing Miles by name.

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Speaker 1: So I want to talk about the review that you

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Speaker 1: wrote in Rolling Stone. It's called Sound of Freedom is

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Speaker 1: a superhero movie for dads with brainworms.

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Speaker 3: Great title.

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Speaker 1: After writing that review, which is like, I think the

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Speaker 1: title makes it sound like it's like jokey, but the

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Speaker 1: review itself is actually quite measured and like thoughtful and

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Speaker 1: well written. It's like clear that you deeply engaged with

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Speaker 1: the film. That's is not like a service snark review.

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Speaker 1: After that review was published, you've been getting these like

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Speaker 1: pretty intense attacks.

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Speaker 3: For that review. What has that been like for you

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Speaker 3: to deal with?

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Speaker 2: Uh, you know, people people worry about me, and I

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Speaker 2: get that, but it's it's always been more irritating than scary.

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Speaker 2: These people, you can tell, you know, even even the

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Speaker 2: more I shouldn't say reasonable ones, but even even the

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Speaker 2: less kind of threatening messages. These people don't really live

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Speaker 2: in consensus reality that most of us would recognize. A

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Speaker 2: lot of them think that I'm going to be arrested

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Speaker 2: any minute, or I'm going to lose my job any minute. No,

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Speaker 2: I have bosses who you know, wanted me to run

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Speaker 2: this story and publish it for me and stand by

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Speaker 2: me and stand by the stand by the review, which

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Speaker 2: you know, as you said, it's it's not even that particular,

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Speaker 2: that that extreme. It's just a negative review of a

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Speaker 2: film that is nominally based on a true story. But

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Speaker 2: it's mostly fictional, and you know, a lot of the

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Speaker 2: a lot of the irate responses are boiled down to

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Speaker 2: know this all really happened, you idiot. On the on

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Speaker 2: the death threat side, it's pretty funny because what I

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Speaker 2: see in them is a desire to become like the

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Speaker 2: hero they're seeing on the screen. They want to become

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Speaker 2: this avenging person. They want to come and find me

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Speaker 2: and and kill me because they imagine me to be

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Speaker 2: like the bad guys in the movie, and they want

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Speaker 2: to be the good guy in the movie. Which is

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Speaker 2: funny because the whole movie is an exercise in in LARPing.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's like it's live action role play. It's

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Speaker 2: like Tim himself, you know, has totally misrepresented what he does.

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Speaker 2: He's acting like he's this savior that he's not. The

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Speaker 2: movie then furthers that narrative and and and mythologizes him

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Speaker 2: in a completely phony way to this to be this

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Speaker 2: vigilante character. And then everyone who watches the movie gets

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Speaker 2: to imagine themselves as that person. And one way they

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Speaker 2: can do that is by finding someone who had a

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Speaker 2: negative review of the film deciding that that person is

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Speaker 2: also a child sex trafficker, because why else would you

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Speaker 2: write a negative review of this movie unless you were

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Speaker 2: trying to cover up something. They decide that I've like

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Speaker 2: somehow outed myself, which by the way, would have been

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Speaker 2: very stupid of me, Like if I were a child trafficker,

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Speaker 2: I probably wouldn't go anywhere near this movie. But anyway,

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Speaker 2: then they get to send me these really horrible emails

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Speaker 2: where they are basically talking out of their ass, trying

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Speaker 2: to sound really tough and scary, trying to sound like

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Speaker 2: they're you know, it's all like I'm your worst nightmare,

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Speaker 2: I'm coming to find you. I'm going to enjoy our conversation.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: It's like they all try to sound like Liam Neeson

390
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Speaker 2: and Taken, which is, you know, basically what the you know,

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Speaker 2: if you made a better version of this movie, that

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Speaker 2: it would probably be more like that, like like a

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Speaker 2: like a Hollywood a real Hollywood action movie, because by

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Speaker 2: the way, this movie is so boring. It has like

395
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Speaker 2: no no real action or tension or narrative states at all.

396
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:17,640
Speaker 2: It's just it's just like trauma porn essentially, So that's

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Speaker 2: what they try to sound like in these in these threats.

398
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Speaker 2: For the most part, Sometimes they're just trying to convince

399
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Speaker 2: me that, you know, crazy c stuff is real. Sometimes

400
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Speaker 2: they're just saying that I worship Satan. Yeah, there are

401
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Speaker 2: some protesters apparently right now at the you know, Rolling

402
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Speaker 2: Stones offices in New York who have signs calling me

403
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Speaker 2: and another colleague who wrote about, you know, trafficking in

404
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 2: this movie, calling us demons, so that it doesn't make

405
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Speaker 2: their side look totally on kilter, you know that, I

406
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Speaker 2: don't know that you can really get new people, recruit

407
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 2: new people to your movement if you are, you know,

408
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Speaker 2: accusing somebody of drinking children's blood because of a movie

409
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Speaker 2: review they wrote. It just it just doesn't comfort with

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Speaker 2: like your actual stated goals as like, you know, it doesn't.

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Speaker 2: Let's say this too. You know a lot of them,

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Speaker 2: a lot of them think that trafficking is this huge problem.

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Speaker 2: While does harassing me do anything to alleviate the problem

414
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Speaker 2: of trafficking. No, it's just that's but that's what they're

415
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Speaker 2: focused on because they think they've done the work by

416
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Speaker 2: seeing this movie. They think that, you know, they're part

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Speaker 2: of they're part of the solution now, and so yeah,

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Speaker 2: they have plenty of free time to just yell at

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Speaker 2: me I.

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Speaker 1: On this show, we cover a lot of like harassment

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Speaker 1: and hate campaigns, and particularly among people who are marginalized,

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Speaker 1: but not all And something that is vc time and

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Speaker 1: time again is how they people who are whipped into

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Speaker 1: a frenzy and targeting somebody, they will take really innocuous,

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Speaker 1: harmless things from their digital life or digital footprint and

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Speaker 1: then like add this sort of conspiratorialchine, right, Like so

427
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Speaker 1: you posted an innocuous and very cute shirtless selfie and

428
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Speaker 1: you said like, oh, I'm having a slut moment, and

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Speaker 1: people on the internet might like I'm not even sure

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Speaker 1: what they're trying to say, Like it's like, this is

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Speaker 1: the person who is against who doesn't want people to

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Speaker 1: see this movie that's against sex trafficking, And it's like,

433
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: I'm not even sure the the like through line that

434
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: they're that they're trying to make other than that, like

435
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: this totally innocuous, normal human behavior of posting a picture

436
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 1: of yourself online is somehow like nefarious because you posted it.

437
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess they're looking for anything that they can

438
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 2: use to paint me as some sort of sexual deviant,

439
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 2: like if I have, like if I express any sexuality

440
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 2: at all, which I will sometimes do online a.

441
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 3: Human expressing sexuality. What are you? Are you? Okay?

442
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I like to mix it up. I

443
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 2: like to flirt online all that stuff. And it's like, uh,

444
00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 2: you know, I could even I could even talk about

445
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 2: having sex with an adult human woman and that would

446
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 2: be somehow construed as like me being a pedophile, Like

447
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 2: they would have no problem going for that. The other

448
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 2: thing is, yeah, they will try to just they will

449
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 2: just take random photos. You know, there's obviously a lot

450
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 2: of photos of me around, and I don't know if

451
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: they will like just put that up in the in

452
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 2: their stories about me, as if it has anything to

453
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 2: do with like what they're supposedly accusing me of. It's

454
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 2: just like a convenient thing for so that people can

455
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 2: then harass me, like based on how I look like

456
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 2: a funny thing. I've been getting as is, some real weirdos,

457
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 2: some real far out weirdos, are saying that they like

458
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,879
Speaker 2: they recognize my like physiognomy as being like a like

459
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 2: a pedo or a deviant or whatever, Like it's literally

460
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 2: like phrenology for child abusers. They think that they can

461
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 2: like look at my skull shape and know that I am.

462
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 2: You know that I'm like abusing children, like they literally

463
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 2: think that it's It's pretty fucking wild. Some of it

464
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 2: is just you know, baseline like bigotry, Like I do

465
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 2: have people, I'm not Jewish, but I do have people,

466
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 2: you know, calling me like a blood drinking jew or whatever.

467
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 2: I'm not gay, but I have a lot of people

468
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 2: using homophobic slurs, so whatever. You know, it's just happens

469
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 2: to be that I like live in la and wear

470
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 2: tank tops, so I guess I look gay enough to them,

471
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 2: and yeah, so so so a lot of the a

472
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 2: lot of the like spreading the pictures around, is just

473
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: to give people something to latch onto in terms of

474
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 2: like what they're going to say about you or how

475
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 2: they're going to use your physical appearance to try to argue,

476
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 2: you know, their non existent point. And sometimes having the

477
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 2: pictures is just so uh that somebody can screen grab

478
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: it and then email you your own photo and say like,

479
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 2: now I know what you look like, like I'm coming

480
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 2: to get you, and you know, I'm not too worried

481
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 2: about that. Just because these are the same people who

482
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 2: think that all major America and metropolis are war zones,

483
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 2: that they would never slip in, and our head of

484
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 2: security has you know, has tracked down a couple of

485
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 2: the people who have sent me the death threats and said, oh,

486
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 2: you know this so and zone never leaves like this

487
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 2: hundred mile radius of this small little like you know,

488
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 2: Middle America town that they live in, because of course

489
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 2: not they didn't, and none of them really have the

490
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 2: wherewith all our capability to find me, let alone you know,

491
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 2: carry out of active domestic terror at my at my

492
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 2: place at residence. So it's it's annoying and it's unhinged,

493
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 2: but I will be okay.

494
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: Have you ever experienced this kind of targeted hate campaign

495
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: before or is this like a new thing?

496
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 2: Oh? Sure, I mean I guess the last big one

497
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 2: would have been some anti vaxers were very upset with me,

498
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 2: because if you call an anti vaxxer an anti vaxxer,

499
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 2: that's they view that as the worst insult in the world,

500
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: and so they'll will harass you for like a good week. Yeah,

501
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 2: and then you know, over the years, there's just been

502
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 2: various other groups that really gave it to me. Ironically,

503
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 2: I think the funniest or the or the nastiest comments

504
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 2: I ever got were when I went inside like a

505
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 2: Facebook group for women who like shame other women's engagement rings.

506
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 3: Oh, I know exactly that proof you're talking about.

507
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: Actually, I got in there and I reported on it

508
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 2: and I was getting uh and those wine mombs were

509
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 2: just harassing me for a week about that. That was

510
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 2: pretty funny. So, you know, it does. It's not always

511
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 2: a conspiracy group. It's not always right wingers. It's it's

512
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 2: any any kind of like extreme enough community. If you

513
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 2: report on them, honestly, they they'll come after you. And yeah,

514
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 2: I've I've dealt with waves of abuse before on the right.

515
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 2: Another one was, you know, I wrote, I wrote something

516
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 2: about how companies that go woke don't actually go broke,

517
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 2: and people have been and still bringing that up and

518
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 2: still getting pretty mad, you know, and like, I'm sorry, Ann,

519
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 2: how's their bush still exists? They're fine. It's it's you know,

520
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 2: like you're not drinking a bod light, who cares? They

521
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 2: still get They still get mad at that, but yeah,

522
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 2: just just about anything. Usually the attention like wears off

523
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 2: after a couple of days, Like they don't have they're

524
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 2: not super committed to this stuff. For the most part,

525
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 2: they forget they find something else that would get mad about.

526
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 2: They find other people to harass, and then they come

527
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 2: back to me weeks later about another article, like just

528
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: totally not remembering that they were mad at me like

529
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 2: two months ago. So they start all over again.

530
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it.

531
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: Sound of Freedom is doing well at the box office.

532
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 1: It made over one hundred million dollars, selling almost nine

533
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: million tickets, a new theatrical milestone for its production company,

534
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: Angel Studios. It's playing at AMC Theaters, the largest theater

535
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: chain of the United States. But if you believe some

536
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:18,239
Speaker 1: theater goers, this box office smash success has happened in

537
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: spite of the best efforts of theaters to sabotage the movie.

538
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 1: And this thing goes all the way from the bottom

539
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: the fifteen year old person selling popcorn behind the counter,

540
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: to the very tippy top to AMC CEO, who, for

541
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: some reason, despite agreeing to show Sound of Freedom at

542
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: six hundred locations nationwide, is now trying to keep people

543
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: from seeing the movie through nefarious means. Now, obviously none

544
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: of this is happening. It's just more conspiracy theories in

545
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: the fantasies of the target audience of Sound of Freedom,

546
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: the film is both being suppressed while also being wildly successful.

547
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: Moviegoers have even taken to social media to complain that

548
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: theaters are breaking the air conditioning, or turning the air

549
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: conditioning up too high, or making the theater smell stinky,

550
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,959
Speaker 1: all in an effort to prevent people from seeing the truth,

551
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: that is, seeing a movie they've already.

552
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 3: Paid money for.

553
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: Question Mark here's what AMC CEO Adam Aaron had to say. Sadly,

554
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories are so prevalent in America, so much garbage

555
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: information is spread. More than one million people have watched

556
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: Sound of Freedom at AMC theaters, more than any other

557
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: theater chain on the planet, Yet people falsely claim otherwise.

558
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 3: It's so bizarre, and he's right.

559
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: These are people who have been so taken in by

560
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: conspiratorial thinking. A movie theater being chilly can only be

561
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,959
Speaker 1: evidence of a grand conspiracy with them at the center

562
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: as both hero and victim. One big conspiracy theory about

563
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: the film that I I'm really curious for your take

564
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: that pedophiles and their protectors are like sabotaging showings of

565
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: the film, so like the ac didn't work.

566
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 3: The AC was working too well, that the sound was funky.

567
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: Do these people no longer believe in a world where

568
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: just coincidences or mistakes happen that, like, you know, sometimes

569
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: the AC doesn't work in an old theater. Is everything

570
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: part of a grand conspiracy where they are at the center.

571
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 2: Yes, well they wanted first of all, they want to

572
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 2: be the protagonists. They want to be the hero and

573
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 2: the victim at once. That's an important thing. So not

574
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 2: only is the film so successful, but also we're being

575
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 2: persecuted and the movies being suppressed. They just have to

576
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 2: have it with ways, always have to be the protagonist,

577
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 2: always have to be the victim. And yes, they are

578
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 2: living in a world where, you know, it is actually

579
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: a QAnon catchphrase, there are no coincidences. That's that's that's

580
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 2: a tenet of the ideology. So no, they're not able

581
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 2: to process anything that happens to them as anything other

582
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 2: than connected to this vast web of conspiracy. So yeah,

583
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 2: the mommy bloggers on TikTok who come out and say, oh,

584
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 2: the AC wasn't working. I just had an email, a

585
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 2: really deranged email from someone who insisted that AMC is

586
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 2: spraying a bad smelling chemical into the theaters that are

587
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 2: showing this, and I don't know, I think I've I

588
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 2: think I've smelled something bad in a movie theater before

589
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 2: and not really thought that that was part of connected

590
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 2: to some larger plot. The movie has only been successful

591
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 2: because it's showing in thousands of AMC theaters, As the

592
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: CEO has kind of crankly pointed out time and again,

593
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 2: you know, I think I wonder if he might be

594
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 2: having some regrets about helping this film get the distribution

595
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,399
Speaker 2: it did, because yeah, he's they sold some, they suld

596
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 2: some a million tickets or whatever, but it's it's it's

597
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 2: not been a not been a picnic for them. I

598
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 2: know that. If you go on Reddit, there's a really

599
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 2: great subreddit I recommend where movie theater employees chat to

600
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 2: each other and they are all just complaining about how

601
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 2: terrible these audiences are, how rude they are, you know,

602
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 2: trying to bring them in on the conspiracy beliefs, and yeah,

603
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,879
Speaker 2: like you know, one movie theater employee said they were

604
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 2: not they weren't interested in and the patron was legging,

605
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 2: you're too woke. You need to go see this movie.

606
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 2: It's important, and you know, just really just really curmudgeingly

607
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 2: weird old boomers who are who I think don't go

608
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 2: to the movies that often anyway, are showing up for

609
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 2: this one because I think it's their duty, their solemn duty,

610
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 2: to see this movie. And then you know, they encounter

611
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 2: the mild inconveniences that any of us might experience at

612
00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 2: any movie showing, and yeah, they have to build that

613
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 2: into a drama, and a drama that is part of

614
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:09,720
Speaker 2: the larger scope of all the very stupid things they believe.

615
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 3: Oof. I feel so bad for like the sixteen.

616
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 1: Year old kids making a minimum wage serving popcorn at

617
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: this theater, just thinking like, oh god, these people are

618
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: going to come in and be the worst yea.

619
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: And imagine thinking those kids are like CIA or something

620
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,720
Speaker 2: like right that they've been Oh I'm sorry, we planted

621
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 2: We planted some high schoolers there to project the film

622
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 2: upside down and slightly blurry for the first five minutes.

623
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:38,879
Speaker 2: Before you know, someone complained. It just boggles the mind.

624
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 3: There is this.

625
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: Real persecution complex happening that I find so peculiar, where

626
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 1: you know, this idea that most people, whether they're in

627
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: government or Hollywood or behind the counter, bid a movie

628
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,720
Speaker 1: theater that most people are like pro sex offender, pro

629
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 1: child abuse, and that these people, well, they're the like

630
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: minority few decent people who are fighting back. I think

631
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: most people would agree most reasonable people are like, oh, well,

632
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 1: I obviously don't think abusing children is good. But yet

633
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 1: they have like created this fantasy where everybody is pro

634
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,240
Speaker 1: child abuse except for them.

635
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think if you went by their estimates, probably

636
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 2: like ninety percent of the country our pedophiles, just like

637
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 2: everyone everyone in a major city, anyone who doesn't go

638
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 2: to church, anyone who's you know, doesn't doesn't get in

639
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 2: on conservative boycotts and vote for Trump and this, that

640
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: and the other. They are all in on it. And

641
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 2: you know that's that's just a way to again sort

642
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 2: of other eyes and dehumanize your political opponents, because you know,

643
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 2: it's they're not really satisfied with having a political or

644
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 2: policy disagreement, right, It's not good enough for them to say, oh,

645
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,040
Speaker 2: like we we we think taxes should be like this,

646
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: or or you know, we think we think welfare should

647
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 2: should operate this way. They're so they're so beyond that,

648
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 2: and you know, I think I think it is just

649
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 2: an element of the Christo fascism that underlies Q and

650
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: on that relies on you know, not this not really

651
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 2: being a political dispute, it is. It is a moral

652
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 2: and it's a religious dispute. And you know, an element

653
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 2: of an important element of fascism is to is to

654
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 2: dehumanize your opponents, and that way you are justified in taking,

655
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: you know, the most extreme possible action against them. So

656
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 2: it just so happens that they have to throw about

657
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 2: ninety percent of the country in that bucket in order

658
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,839
Speaker 2: to do it. But hey, they're all in on a

659
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: grief minority rule anyway. I mean, that's how Trump, you know,

660
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 2: got elected in the first place. It's the angry minority

661
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 2: trying to ride rough shot over everyone else.

662
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 1: Something that really bothers me about this whole conversation is

663
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: how it actually would be good to have like substantive

664
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: public conversations about things like trafficking or child sexual abuse,

665
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: because those things are horrible and.

666
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 3: They do happen.

667
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: But because these extremists just hijack these conversations and make

668
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 1: them about fantasies and nonsense, we're not able to have

669
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 1: them because it just turns up the temperature too much.

670
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the film Cutis, which we've talked about

671
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: quite a bit on this on this podcast, and how

672
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: like I had not seen Cutis, and I, you know,

673
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,919
Speaker 1: completely got like believed this horrible campaign that was like, oh,

674
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 1: it's child pornography and this and that, And when I

675
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 1: watched it for myself, I was like, Oh, it's fine

676
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,879
Speaker 1: if somebody didn't like this movie, but calling it child

677
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: pornography is just not correct. I looked into all of

678
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 1: the ways that like that conversation was completely hijacked by

679
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 1: people who were not based in reality, and how easy

680
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 1: it was for people who we're just sort of casually

681
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,399
Speaker 1: following it to be like, oh, it seems like this

682
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 1: movie was bad.

683
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 3: Even today, I.

684
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: See so many people saying like this movie was proof

685
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: positive that Netflix and Hollywood is run by child abusers.

686
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 1: Even when I was researching but this conversation, I saw

687
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 1: somebody tweet like, oh, well, of course Miles didn't like

688
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: Sound Deaf Freedom because he really liked this pervert movie

689
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 1: and it links to a rolling Stone piece.

690
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 3: I guess I wonder, are we past the.

691
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: Fact where we can have public conversation about these issues

692
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: that are so important in ways that are real that

693
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: actually are grounded in what trafficking looks like and how

694
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,879
Speaker 1: to prevent it, or the kinds of pressure that young

695
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 1: girls like like in the movie Acuties are actually facing.

696
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 1: Everything seems to be just so skewed toward fantasy and

697
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: inflammatory nonsense. Have you lost the ability to have these

698
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 1: real conversations.

699
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I think it is something we

700
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 2: have to really concentrate on fighting. Know that the the

701
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 2: irony of the whole Cuties thing. By the way, I've

702
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 2: never seen that. I didn't write that article. That's just

703
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 2: another Stone article from before I worked here, And I

704
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 2: did get a lot of responses of you know, you

705
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,439
Speaker 2: must have loved Cuties whatever, you know, the which I think,

706
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 2: you know was accused of sexualizing the children, about doing

707
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 2: it from a satirical point of view, I don't know.

708
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 2: But the the funny thing is Sound of Freedom is

709
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 2: also sexualizing children. There there's an entire scene of this

710
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 2: trafficker woman who's kind of getting the girl dolled up,

711
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 2: like she's getting, you know, doing a beauty pageant, which

712
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 2: I think is what Cuties is about.

713
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 4: Right.

714
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 2: She's like she's, you know, she's doing her hair, she's putting,

715
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 2: she's putting a lipstick on her even though she's only

716
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 2: like seven years old. You know, this is all They're

717
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 2: doing the same thing in a sense. Uh, they are

718
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 2: sensationalizing this and they and they are enjoying the spectacle

719
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 2: of you know, these children being trafficked. It's really horrible

720
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 2: on the on the ability to have the conversation, Yeah,

721
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,439
Speaker 2: we are too many people are really caving, I think

722
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 2: too to these outside pressures. I was just reading a

723
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 2: story about in Michigan about this woman who ran a

724
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 2: nonprofit for children who were sexually abused. And she had

725
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 2: she had run this for about twenty five years, doing

726
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 2: really important, really good work to help these children who

727
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 2: had been traumatized and so and so horribly treated. She

728
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 2: was basically forced to retire early by a mob in

729
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 2: the in the county that was, you know, calling for

730
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 2: her head because the nonprofit had happened to support a

731
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 2: pride campaign. So these anti groomer lunatics showed up, uh

732
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,320
Speaker 2: at you know, city council just demanded that she go.

733
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 2: And you know, this is someone who was like going

734
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 2: to retire like maybe next year. She's like she's like,

735
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 2: fuck it, I'm just leaving now. I'm I don't want

736
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 2: to deal with this, and that is something we have

737
00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 2: seen in school boards and all local governments all across

738
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 2: the country. Is a lot of reasonable people don't want

739
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 2: to sit there and be screamed at by conspiracy theorists

740
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 2: like at every public meeting, so they just leave and

741
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 2: then the craziest takeover. So that's that's a real problem,

742
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 2: and that's part of the reason we're not able to

743
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 2: have these conversations is that a lot of these institutions

744
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 2: are being taken over by people who believe this crazy stuff.

745
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 2: I mean, I did get I did get a threatening

746
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 2: email from a guy who's literally on like a mental

747
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: health board in the county where he's from. So I

748
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: had to pour that to like his his boss basically

749
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,280
Speaker 2: and say, like, you know, it's this guy.

750
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: Okay, imagine sending you that attached to your real name,

751
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 1: your employment.

752
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 2: He had his phone number in the email, Like it's

753
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 2: just I don't know. It just goes to show you

754
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 2: how far gone they are and and how you know,

755
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 2: how detached they are from the consequences of what they're

756
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 2: saying and doing because they think they're right and they

757
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 2: think they will be vindicated in the end. But you

758
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 2: know that storm is never going to come. They're never

759
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,080
Speaker 2: going to get the big finale they're waiting for. But

760
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 2: they can just keep putting it off forever and keep

761
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 2: doubling down and keep accusing everyone else of all the

762
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 2: stuff that you know, oh actually, like you know, it's

763
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 2: probably the youth pastor in your town who's abusing kids.

764
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 2: But you know, sure keep emailing me.

765
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:26,720
Speaker 1: You know, you write in your review that the film

766
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: is like, for the most part, kind of grounded in

767
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 1: our universe, as opposed to being like completely completely over

768
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: the top and like overtly Qanani.

769
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:36,800
Speaker 3: Do you think.

770
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: That that is to sort of draw more people who

771
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 1: might think of themselves as more moderate into all of this.

772
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 2: Well, to be clear, the movie was finished before QAnon

773
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 2: really took hold. I think it was finished in twenty eighteen,

774
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 2: so they didn't really even have the opportunity to make

775
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 2: it as crazy as you know, some of the stuff

776
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 2: that Jim Cavizel says, Becausekvizel says that they're drinking children's

777
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 2: blood and harvesting their adrenochrome and all that, there was

778
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 2: never going to be uh that kind of stuff in

779
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 2: the film, because it's just too, it was made too

780
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 2: long ago. What what is useful about that? For from

781
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 2: the point of view of recruitment is, yes, it does

782
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 2: seem more reasonable, and it does seem like a more

783
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 2: a more grounded cry for justice. The average person who

784
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 2: went in there without any context would maybe think the

785
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 2: movie was like a little bit slow and and and depressing,

786
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 2: but they would not think to immediately uh, connect it

787
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 2: to like some wilder conspiracy theories. It's it's useful because

788
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 2: it taps into the same ground level fears that get

789
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 2: people into QAnon, you know, save the children campaigns, that

790
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 2: kind of thing. If you can be convinced that this

791
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 2: is a problem the way invalid in his organization had

792
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 2: described it, then you are much more susceptible to believe

793
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 2: the crazier and crazier things that have emerged basically since

794
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: they finished making this movie, because that the crazy QAnon

795
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 2: stuff is built on the original conception of just oh,

796
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 2: there's two million children get snatched off the street every year.

797
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 2: You know, that was the starting point, you know when

798
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 2: Oure was founded in like twenty thirteen, that that's the

799
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 2: narrative there, and we need to we need to have

800
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 2: a rescue industry we need to parachute in there and

801
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 2: get them. That was the starting point, and that was

802
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 2: you know, all very catered to a religious crowd, to

803
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 2: a right wing crowd, and it eventually mistastasized into the

804
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 2: q andon we know today. So in a way, what

805
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 2: you're seeing with this movie is a predecessor to to

806
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 2: a lot of the views that followed, and in that sense, it,

807
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 2: you know, it could very easily be the thing that

808
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 2: gets people down the rabbit hole.

809
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: Do you see it being used as a recruitment tool

810
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 1: long term?

811
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 2: I was joking with some friends on another podcast because

812
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 2: I think everyone has, at least anyone who went to

813
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 2: public school has the experience of a Remember when they

814
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 2: showed us this movie in health class for some reason,

815
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 2: because I was supposed to teach us something. I mean

816
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 2: I remember learning about like, uh like menopause and uh

817
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 2: a menstruation, both from two different special episodes at the

818
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: Bill Cosby Show. So we were joking that like, uh,

819
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 2: that someday this is going to be shown in like

820
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 2: schools that that uh, you know, possibly even well meaning

821
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 2: health teacher and maybe a conservative area would say, oh

822
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 2: I should I should show like my ninth grader this

823
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 2: movie to warn them about the dangers of human trafficking

824
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 2: or you know, something like that, Like I really do

825
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 2: think it will be held up as this, you know,

826
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 2: important message movie, and like you know, potentially, yes, you

827
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 2: could use it to on the path to like indoctrination

828
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 2: as far as just trying to convince people who young

829
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 2: and old that that this is the reality of trafficking.

830
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 2: And you know you saw that on the Q and

831
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 2: on boards too when it came out. They were very

832
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:21,320
Speaker 2: excited about some older audiences seeing this. They were pleased

833
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 2: that it wasn't too crazy because it wouldn't it wouldn't

834
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 2: turn off the average viewer right away, they might be

835
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 2: drawn deeper into into the conspiracy rabbit hole. I don't know.

836
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 2: I don't know how long term successful it can be,

837
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 2: just because it is a really bad, unpleasant film, like

838
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 2: on the face of it, and it would probably be

839
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,800
Speaker 2: more effective it was better made, more and more entertaining.

840
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 3: A well written movie.

841
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 2: No no, And and I think we actually already have

842
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 2: hit our upper limit on like who is going to

843
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:02,839
Speaker 2: see it? I think everyone who was going to see

844
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 2: it has seen it, so it will be up to

845
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 2: those people to I don't know, try to force it

846
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 2: on their children, which is again when I'm my my

847
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,360
Speaker 2: friends and I were joking about it on another podcast,

848
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 2: which is, yeah, can can they keep it going? Can

849
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 2: they sustain it as this like emblematic you know, triumph?

850
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know that they would even

851
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 2: bother too, because they again, they get so distracted so easily,

852
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 2: they just move on to the next thing. And you know,

853
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:31,839
Speaker 2: once they're done supporting this, there's going to be something

854
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 2: else in Angel Studios, you know, is gearing up to

855
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 2: release a few more movies, and you know they're going

856
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 2: to be They're going to be the big i think,

857
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 2: right wing religious alternative to like Hollywood production. So we're

858
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 2: likely to just get more stories and you know about

859
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 2: other other other themes that appeal to this demographic, and

860
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,760
Speaker 2: they're just going to to those movies instead and probably

861
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 2: forget about this one.

862
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 1: I could absolutely see this movie being shown to health

863
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 1: classes in a like five years time I went to

864
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:10,320
Speaker 1: school in the South.

865
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:11,799
Speaker 3: This is this is exactly the kind of movie they

866
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 3: would have shown us.

867
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:14,240
Speaker 1: And I think I've said this on the show before,

868
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 1: but before the first time I traveled to Europe, my

869
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:19,879
Speaker 1: dad was like, you've got to watch this documentary about

870
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: staying safe overseas and it was taken.

871
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 3: I was like, it's not a documentary.

872
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 1: One of my last questions for you is, you know

873
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 1: I have seen possibly like well meaning people say that

874
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 1: even if this film is not an accurate representation of trafficking,

875
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: which it's not, it's still good because it raises awareness

876
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:41,320
Speaker 1: about the issue.

877
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 3: And like any awareness is good awareness.

878
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 2: You know, what do you say to that, you know,

879
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 2: awareness is overrated anyway? Who cares? If you're aware? That's

880
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 2: it's it's a pet peeve of mine, honestly, to be like,

881
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 2: you know, it doesn't it doesn't even have to apply

882
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 2: to this, you know, like awareness of breast cancer, Like, okay,

883
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 2: I'm aware of it, but like my awareness doesn't really

884
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 2: contribute to solving the problem, right, That's one two. I

885
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 2: don't think awareness can have any value if it if

886
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 2: the awareness you have is misrepresentation of the issue, it

887
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 2: doesn't help people to be misinformed. And that's what this

888
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:24,879
Speaker 2: movie is. It's misinformation. There's a lot you could read,

889
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 2: and there are a lot of other trafficking organizations you

890
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 2: could listen to, but that's not just like a two

891
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 2: hour movie. You can PLoP down with your popcorn and

892
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 2: feel like you've accomplished something. So no, it's the awareness

893
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 2: is not Awareness is not helpful?

894
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 3: Yeah at all, Miles is right.

895
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 1: I think we've awarenessed the discourse around trafficking so much

896
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 1: that the way we talk about it is no longer

897
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: grounded in reality anymore. So how could that awareness ever

898
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 1: be helpful? The actual red flags and warning signs have

899
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: taken a backseat to fantasy and urban legend. When Carly

900
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 1: Russell wanted to fake her own abduction, it's telling that

901
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 1: she just recreated something that sounds like it's out of

902
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 1: a movie. It tells me that our understanding of the

903
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 1: issue has been completely warped by misrepresentations masquerading as raising awareness,

904
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:24,319
Speaker 1: and in the end, it actually makes us.

905
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 3: All less safe.

906
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 1: If you want to hear more of my thoughts specifically

907
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:31,000
Speaker 1: on the Carly Russell abduction hoax and what it says

908
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: about our discourse around trafficking.

909
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 3: Check out our patreon at patreon dot com. Slash tengoty.

910
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 1: So as soon as I heard her say that, I

911
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,359
Speaker 1: was like, this story is probably going to turn out

912
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 1: to be more than me, more than it sounds. I

913
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,360
Speaker 1: didn't know you know the lengths to which this was

914
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: a hoax. At that point, like I was like, you know,

915
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: wait and see. But I saw people that I trusted

916
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 1: retweeting that story, and I can totally understand why even

917
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 1: though I knew that something more was happening to this

918
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,839
Speaker 1: story than a woman being kidnapped in trafficked, I still

919
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 1: didn't want to openly be like she's lying or something

920
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 1: is not right here. I think it's the same reason

921
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 1: that a lot of people felt that when it comes

922
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 1: to black women or other marginalized people, we are not

923
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: often listened to or supported or believed when we speak

924
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 1: up about facing abuse when something is happening to us,

925
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:36,279
Speaker 1: right Like, we know that marginalized people are overwhelmingly likely

926
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 1: to be the victims of crimes, yet our stories are

927
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 1: often underreported or not told at all. And so I

928
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 1: think that's one of the reasons why even though I

929
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: didn't think this story was like on the up and up,

930
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:56,879
Speaker 1: I wasn't gonna be like, she's lying whatever, because it's

931
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 1: this weird thing where you don't want to be the

932
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 1: person that is not believing of black women when we

933
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: know black women are so statistically unlikely to be believed,

934
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 1: got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or

935
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 1: just want to say hi. You can reach us at

936
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 1: Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts

937
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 1: for today's episode at tenggody dot com. There Are No

938
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod.

939
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio, an unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland

940
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:27,840
Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Tarry Harrison is our producer and

941
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Almato is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

942
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate and.

943
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:36,240
Speaker 3: Review us on Apple Podcasts.

944
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app,

945
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.