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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch US live weekdays at

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Speaker 1: noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, Cockley and Android

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Speaker 1: Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen on demand wherever

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Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, or watch US live on YouTube.

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Speaker 2: But talk today, frankly, is what happened in Riod in

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Speaker 2: the early hours Eastern time this morning. A meeting between

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Speaker 2: US and Russian officials to discuss the future of the

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Speaker 2: war in Ukraine, or perhaps more specifically, an end to

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Speaker 2: that war, which the US State Department says they want

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Speaker 2: to see happen as soon as possible. At these talks,

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Speaker 2: obviously Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, a number of emissaries

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Speaker 2: from the US as well, Mike Waltz, the National Security Advisor,

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Speaker 2: Steve Witkoff, who is the Special Envoy for the Middle East,

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Speaker 2: not notably the Special Envoy for Ukraine, Keith Kellogg, and

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Speaker 2: then of course Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who had

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Speaker 2: this to stay from Saudi Arabia earlier.

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Speaker 3: We're going to appoint a high level team from our

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Speaker 3: end to help negotiate and walk work through the end

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Speaker 3: of the conflict in Ukraine in a way that's enduring

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Speaker 3: and acceptable to all the parties engaged. The third point

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Speaker 3: is to begin to work at a high level as well,

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Speaker 3: to begin to discuss and think about and examine both

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Speaker 3: the geopolitical and economic cooperation that could result from an

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Speaker 3: end to the conflict in Ukraine.

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Speaker 4: That's where we start a conversation with Jennifer Kavanaugh, back

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Speaker 4: with a senior fellow, director of Military Analysis at Defense

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Speaker 4: Priorities and co author of the book Truth Decay, an

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Speaker 4: initial exploration of the diminishing role of facts and analysis

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Speaker 4: in American public life. Jennifer, it's great to see you.

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Speaker 4: Welcome back to Bloomberg TV and Radio. There's been a

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Speaker 4: lot of criticism, as you might expect surrounding such a

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Speaker 4: sensitive interaction like this first meeting. Much has been said

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Speaker 4: about who is not at the table. What's your thought

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Speaker 4: of about the way this is starting. Is this a

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Speaker 4: positive move or not?

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Speaker 5: I do think it's a positive move. It's the first

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Speaker 5: time that there's been a high level meeting like this

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Speaker 5: between the United States and Russia since the war started

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Speaker 5: almost three years ago now, and any negotiation is going

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Speaker 5: to take a lot of rounds of talks, and it

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Speaker 5: makes sense that the United States and Russia would start

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Speaker 5: by dealing with some of their bilateral issues. That does

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Speaker 5: not mean that Ukraine should be excluded for all the

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Speaker 5: rounds of talks, but certainly the United States and Russia

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Speaker 5: have a long history of tense and difficult relationships, and

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Speaker 5: there are a lot of bilateral issues that the two

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Speaker 5: countries need to work out before they even sit down

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Speaker 5: at the table with the other parties, to work through

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Speaker 5: the tough issues surrounding the war in Ukraine and the

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Speaker 5: relationship between Russia and the rest of Europe. So, as

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Speaker 5: you heard Secretary Rubio say in the clip you played,

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Speaker 5: you know, a big piece of this is thinking about

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Speaker 5: the future of US Russia relationships. So I see this

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Speaker 5: first meeting as sort of setting the foundation for future talks.

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Speaker 5: And it makes sense that the United States and Russia,

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Speaker 5: which are both two major nuclear powers, would start that

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Speaker 5: off together alone before inviting the rest of the parties in.

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Speaker 2: But does this not also set the foundation for a

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Speaker 2: deal that could end up being more favorable to Russia

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Speaker 2: given some of the rhetoric we're hearing, than to Ukraine.

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Speaker 2: Who wasn't there.

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Speaker 5: I don't necessarily think that any decisions were made today

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Speaker 5: about how.

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Speaker 6: The war would end.

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Speaker 5: Today. It seems like the key outcome was the appointing

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Speaker 5: high level negotiating teams to work through those issues. So

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Speaker 5: no decisions about Ukraine were made without Ukraine today. It

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Speaker 5: was more decisions about process and how the process might unfold.

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Speaker 5: I would agree certainly that any decision that deals specifically

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Speaker 5: with the war Ukraine should be a party to, and

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Speaker 5: I think that anyone who's working in the Trump administration

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Speaker 5: who really does want a lasting piece would also want

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Speaker 5: Ukraine at the table. Research shows that no peace settlements

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Speaker 5: that are imposed on countries the countries are forced to

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Speaker 5: sign rarely endure. So if the goal here is to

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Speaker 5: have a lasting piece, which it seems like it is,

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Speaker 5: then Ukraine will have to be at the table. So

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Speaker 5: I don't see any necessarily any foreboding signs here from

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Speaker 5: Ukraine's perspective.

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Speaker 4: Well, you did put your finger on something in the

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Speaker 4: language that the Secretary of State was using.

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Speaker 6: There this idea.

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Speaker 4: Of potentially more comprehensive talks involving, as Marco Rubio put it,

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Speaker 4: both the geopolitical and economic cooperation that could result from

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Speaker 4: an end of the conflict.

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Speaker 6: So what are we talking about here?

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Speaker 4: Is this exon mobile and McDonald's going back to Beijing

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Speaker 4: or should I say Moscow rather.

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Speaker 5: It could be I think the key things are Number One,

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Speaker 5: this war was in the approximate terms, about Ukraine, but

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Speaker 5: also about Russia's security concerns. There's a debate about wether

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Speaker 5: those are legitimate or not, but Russia does have concerns

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Speaker 5: about having NATO right up on its border, and it

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Speaker 5: made it clear before the war that it wanted to

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Speaker 5: have at least discussions about the security architecture and the

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Speaker 5: relationship between NATO and Russia. And so I see in

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Speaker 5: Secretary rubio statement and indication that that will be something that

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Speaker 5: the two parties discuss, or the four parties or however

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Speaker 5: many parties are at the table. And then on the

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Speaker 5: economic piece, I think there's a recognition coming from Secretary

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Speaker 5: Rubio and the US team that sanctions, the very stiff

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Speaker 5: and extensive sanctions that the United States and its allies

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Speaker 5: and partners have placed on Russia since the beginning of

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Speaker 5: the war, that some of those sanctions will have to

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Speaker 5: be rolled back, maybe not all at once, but that

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Speaker 5: in the long term future a stable relationship between the

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Speaker 5: United States and Russia and NATO and Russia will have

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Speaker 5: to have those sanctions removed at least over a period

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Speaker 5: of time. And so that's what I see is sort

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Speaker 5: of the economic piece that there has to be some

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Speaker 5: reopening of these economic relationships.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, remarkable to see today Marco Rubio sitting across the

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Speaker 2: table from Sergey Lavrov, who personally is under sanctioned by

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Speaker 2: the US government. But that is exactly why Rubio was

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Speaker 2: talking about the need for a European cooperation here in

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Speaker 2: that Europe also has sanctions on Russia, so will have

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Speaker 2: to be involved if you're a leader in a European

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Speaker 2: capital right now, Jennifer facing down the prospect of not

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Speaker 2: only being excluded from the talks today, but having to

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Speaker 2: rethink defense posturing because of the signal of a US

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Speaker 2: pullback in many of those areas you were just alluding to,

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Speaker 2: especially those countries right on the front when it comes

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Speaker 2: to NATO. What are you thinking right now?

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Speaker 5: I mean, this has been a challenge for European leaders

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Speaker 5: for some time now, is the sort of unwillingness to

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Speaker 5: recognize the changing attitude in the United States towards continuing

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Speaker 5: to have this all encompassing security guarantee to its European partners.

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Speaker 5: We heard comments from a number of administration players, whether

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Speaker 5: it was Secretary of Defense P. Xth or Vice President J.

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Speaker 5: D Vance, about, you know, the ways in which they

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Speaker 5: were looking for Russia to step up. And I do

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Speaker 5: think that there was a change in tone in the

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Speaker 5: administration to point out that it's not just that the administration,

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Speaker 5: the Trump administration, is looking for Europe to spend more

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Speaker 5: under US leadership, but to actually take on that leadership themselves,

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Speaker 5: and that's that's there's a difference there. And I think

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Speaker 5: we saw the recognition and the urgency felt in Europe

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Speaker 5: after that with the summit yesterday in Paris, but the

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Speaker 5: results were kind of lackluster. So, if you know, if

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Speaker 5: I personally am a European leader, I'm trying to figure

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Speaker 5: out what do I need to defend myself with no

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Speaker 5: US support, because that should be my security goal. I

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Speaker 5: don't necessarily see that that level of urgency yet for

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Speaker 5: most of Europe. Certainly you see it in the Baltic

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Speaker 5: States and in Poland, but those countries can only do

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Speaker 5: so much without the rest of Europe behind them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Poland has made that clear, so Frances it will

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Speaker 4: help with peacekeeping troops as well. The uk kere starmer

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Speaker 4: those is he wants US military support, it sounds like

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Speaker 4: he's not.

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Speaker 6: Going to get it.

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Speaker 5: This seems unlikely at least right now from what the

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Speaker 5: Administration said last week. I mean, the reality is that

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Speaker 5: a European whether it's a peacekeeping force or a trip

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Speaker 5: wire force of any meaningful size, can't really sustain itself

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Speaker 5: without US support, at least in terms of logistics and

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Speaker 5: other types of enablers, even if there aren't US boots

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Speaker 5: on the ground in Ukraine. The administration comments last week

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Speaker 5: weren't all that clear whether or not that support is

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Speaker 5: off the table, But there are another other challenges with

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Speaker 5: any sort of European security guarantees. So I personally am

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Speaker 5: not that confident that a sort of European peacekeeping force

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Speaker 5: is a likely outcome of the negotiations, both because of

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Speaker 5: feasibility as well as because of what Russia is likely

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Speaker 5: to accept. They're not going to be too enthusiastic about

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Speaker 5: having a big peacekeeping force or deterrent force of European

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Speaker 5: soldiers on their border either or on the de facto border.

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Speaker 5: Ukraine that's likely to come from any settlement, So I

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Speaker 5: don't really see that as a likely outcome, but certainly

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Speaker 5: there will be more talk about it because it's the

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Speaker 5: only real alternative to US backed security guarantees that's on

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Speaker 5: the table right now.

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Speaker 2: All right, Jennifer Kavanaugh, Senior Fellow and Director of Military

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Speaker 2: Analysis at Defense Priorities, thank you for joining us here

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Speaker 2: on Balance of Power today. Much appreciated. And I do

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Speaker 2: Joe just think back to the number of conversations we

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Speaker 2: have had with foreign ministers, other European diplomats here at

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Speaker 2: this table, especially during the election, about what it would

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Speaker 2: mean for Europe infer NATO if Donald Trump were to

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Speaker 2: be elected, and now that he's president, after all of

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Speaker 2: them essentially telling us we'll work with any administration. I

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Speaker 2: do wonder how that tenor might change.

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Speaker 4: It's not resulting in much unity at the moments. Italy

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Speaker 4: showed up late for the emergency meeting over the weekend,

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Speaker 4: ole Off Schultz left early.

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Speaker 6: We'll see how things go Wednesday. Reuter says that will

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Speaker 6: be the next meeting.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch

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Speaker 1: us Live weekdays at noon and five pm. Eastern on

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Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty.

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Speaker 4: We're live from Washington, but we do have our eyes

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Speaker 4: on New York, right where Charlie Pellett is sitting, where

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Speaker 4: the news really could be focused on later today, as

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Speaker 4: the Governor of New York raises questions about the future

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Speaker 4: of the Eric Adams administration. We talked about this a

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Speaker 4: bit on Friday, when the resignations began from inside the

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Speaker 4: Department of Justice over this DOJ order that the corruption

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Speaker 4: case against him be dropped that has expanded.

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Speaker 7: Now.

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Speaker 4: Four of Adams's top deputies announced their resignations over the

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Speaker 4: weekend on this push to drop the corruption case in

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Speaker 4: apparent exchange for help with Donald Trump's deportation agenda. There

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Speaker 4: is talk of a quid now Kathy Hokeel, who as

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Speaker 4: you might remember, was in Washington last week, so she's

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Speaker 4: weighing the serious step now of removing the mayor.

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Speaker 6: How does that happen?

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Speaker 4: You say, the city's charter lays it out, and what

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Speaker 4: is in fact an untested process which the governor can

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Speaker 4: begin by serving the mayor with charges warranting removal. She's

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Speaker 4: in meetings today with a lot more to follow here,

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Speaker 4: including the city council speaker and controller. They're part of

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Speaker 4: the committee that can declare a mayor unable to serve.

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Speaker 4: We could be in a situation where things went from

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Speaker 4: being very good for Eric Adams to not at all

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Speaker 4: under the Trump White House. It's where we start with

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Speaker 4: our panel today off the long weekend. Rick Davis, Partner

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Speaker 4: at Stone Court Capital, Bloomberg Politics contributor and Republican strategist,

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Speaker 4: joined by Democratic analyst Genie Schanzano, Senior Democracy Fellow at

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Speaker 4: the Center for the Study of the Presidency in Congress,

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Speaker 4: Bloomberg Politics contributor, Genie, This hits close to home for

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Speaker 4: you in New York and as a Democrat, is Eric

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Speaker 4: Adams going to be the mayor for law?

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Speaker 8: You know, it's unclear now. Everybody in democratic politics in

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Speaker 8: New York is at that meeting, so we'll have to

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Speaker 8: see what they say. And she, the governor, is certainly

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Speaker 8: getting a lot of pressure to remove him, but it

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Speaker 8: is a bad idea. She chose not to remove him,

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Speaker 8: and she is allowed to as you just mentioned via

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Speaker 8: city charter when he was indicted in October. So to

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Speaker 8: remove him now would be to suggest that she is

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Speaker 8: removing him because he cozied up to Donald Trump and

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Speaker 8: because they feel that the you know, he is cooperating

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Speaker 8: with the federal government as it pertains to immigration. I

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Speaker 8: don't like what the Justice Department did. I don't like

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Speaker 8: the dropping of the charges. I certainly am not a

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Speaker 8: big fan of Eric Adams, nor are many New Yorkers.

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Speaker 8: He's at about nine percent. But this would be a

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Speaker 8: historic move by a New York governor. Two hundred and

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Speaker 8: thirty five years, we've never seen this, and so to

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Speaker 8: do it now would be to open a Pandora's box

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Speaker 8: in terms of what a mayor could or couldn't be

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Speaker 8: removed for.

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Speaker 9: What do you think of this?

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Speaker 4: Rick Governor Hokel says, the alleged conduct at City Hall

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Speaker 4: that has been reported over the past two weeks is

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Speaker 4: troubling and cannot be ignored.

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Speaker 6: Will she remove the mayor? Well, you know, it's hard

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Speaker 6: to tell.

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Speaker 10: I mean, does she really feel like she's got the leverage.

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Speaker 6: To be able to do it?

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Speaker 10: I kind of agree with Genie. I mean, if she

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Speaker 10: was going to do that. She probably should have done

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Speaker 10: it when he was indicted, said resigner or get kicked out,

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Speaker 10: and then she should have kicked him out and we

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Speaker 10: would have been spared all this quid pro quo talk

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Speaker 10: and losing the leadership of the Southern District.

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Speaker 6: Of New York's Justice Department.

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Speaker 10: I mean, like this thing has turned in to a

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Speaker 10: circus when you think of all the impact that this

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Speaker 10: thing has had on the City of New York, the

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Speaker 10: Justice Department, the immigration program, the state of New York,

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Speaker 10: the state of the Democratic Party in the City of

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Speaker 10: New York. I mean, if Eric Adams doesn't resign based

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Speaker 10: on the top four people in his administration walking out

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Speaker 10: on him yesterday, then Kathy Holkl should do something. And

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Speaker 10: twiddling away at this is only making it worse by

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Speaker 10: the day, and that's on her.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's not going in a good direction. When

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Speaker 4: Adolph Hitler is invoked Eric adams Genie quote. I was

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Speaker 4: listening to some of doctor Martin Luther King's teachings and

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Speaker 4: he talked about the book Mine comf referencing Adolf Hitler's

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Speaker 4: manifesto quote. He said, if you repeat a lie long

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Speaker 4: enough loud enough people will believe it is true.

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Speaker 6: And that's what you're seeing right now.

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Speaker 4: This is a modern day mind comf Where is he

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Speaker 4: going with that? Because it doesn't sound like someone is

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Speaker 4: about to resign.

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Speaker 8: Oh, and he said clearly and that very bizarre speech

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Speaker 8: gave yesterday, that he was not going anywhere. Of course,

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Speaker 8: that has become sort of practice amongst politicians who are

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Speaker 8: accused of improprieties is to just stay, put fight and

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Speaker 8: say they are victimized. And this is of course what

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Speaker 8: Adams has been saying right along. This is why he

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Speaker 8: went down tomorrow lago. This is why he went to

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Speaker 8: the inauguration. He's been closing up with Donald Trump because

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Speaker 8: Donald Trump has been publicly empathetic with him, saying that

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Speaker 8: he has been a victim of an over zealous prosecution.

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Speaker 8: You know that said, the timeline here is critically important.

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Speaker 8: If she doesn't act to remove him before March twenty six,

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Speaker 8: that's ninety days before the primary, we are in an

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Speaker 8: election here in New York. There would need to be

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Speaker 8: a special election by Jimani Williams, who's the public advocate

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Speaker 8: who would become acting mayor on his removal. So there

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Speaker 8: are a lot of moving parts here, and you know

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Speaker 8: you want to add insult to injury. Look at that

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Speaker 8: Fox interview with Tom Holman on Friday and Eric Adams

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Speaker 8: where Tom Holman is joking about laughing, I don't know,

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Speaker 8: joking about a quid pro quo. I mean, the entire

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Speaker 8: thing is ugly. Adams should resign, he looks like he won't,

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Speaker 8: and then the governor has lost her chance to remove him.

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Speaker 4: Man to be a New York Republican once again, Rick,

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Speaker 4: I don't know. But if Kathy Hokle removes the mayor

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Speaker 4: from office, knowing that he is close to Donald Trump,

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Speaker 4: what does this do for the New York delegation that

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Speaker 4: was already on thin ice here when it came to

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Speaker 4: so many issues.

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Speaker 6: Including salt. This is a tough room to be a Republican,

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Speaker 6: Rick Davis.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, this is not your grandfather's Republican Party for sure,

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Speaker 10: and I think that they have to act on their

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Speaker 10: own interests. In other words, what do they think is

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Speaker 10: good for the state of New York, for the country.

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Speaker 10: And lastly, you know you can slot in there something

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Speaker 10: for the Republican Party if you can still recognize it.

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Speaker 10: But look, I mean, this is the trouble here. I mean,

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Speaker 10: you know, if you don't think it was a quid

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Speaker 10: pro quote, watch that Fox interview with.

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Speaker 6: Tom Holman in the Mayor.

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Speaker 10: I mean, if you don't deliver for Ice, I'm going

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Speaker 10: to come to New York and we won't be sitting

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Speaker 10: on a couch. I will be up your keister. And

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Speaker 10: I'm saying that on a Bloomberg approved boy. I mean, like, really,

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Speaker 10: I just can't imagine a scenario that could be worse

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Speaker 10: for the administration. But they're gonna get what they want

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Speaker 10: right and Kathy Hokle is the only thing that steps

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Speaker 10: between them and getting their way. And in the meantime,

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Speaker 10: you have a crisis at the Justice Department with you know,

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Speaker 10: the senior leadership of the Southern District of New York's

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Speaker 10: US Attorney's office walking out because they claim it's a

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Speaker 10: quid pro quote and politicize. So, I mean, who are

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Speaker 10: you gonna believe your eyes or your ears?

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Speaker 6: Unbelievable that you've both brought it up.

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Speaker 4: The optics of seeing these two sit together for the

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Speaker 4: interview on Fox, even with the sound off, was remarkable.

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Speaker 4: What does this mean for Kathy Hockele's reelection Genie.

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Speaker 6: This is a very sensitive moment.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, I think politically she has a lot

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Speaker 8: of reason to try to remove Eric Adams because she

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Speaker 8: is not popular. She has seen as fairly weak. She was,

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Speaker 8: you know, not everybody's first choice for governor. She became

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Speaker 8: sort of an accidental governor after we Cuomo resigned or

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Speaker 8: was pushed out. And by the way, Culomo is likely

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Speaker 8: to be the New York City's next mayor. He certainly

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Speaker 8: has a leg up and will announce in March, so

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Speaker 8: he's not left for long as well. So she has

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Speaker 8: a lot of political reason to do this, but that

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Speaker 8: is not enough. If she was going to do it,

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Speaker 8: it should have been done in October. She didn't do it.

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Speaker 8: And I think, speaking as Rick was about the Justice Department,

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Speaker 8: what the Trump administration has done here is preposterous. For

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Speaker 8: Emil Bouvet to say that we can't prosecute Eric Adams

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Speaker 8: because if we do, he can't carry out the immigration

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Speaker 8: raids that we want. Means that you have put an

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Speaker 8: end to public corruption in the United States, public corruption investigations,

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Speaker 8: because that means any public official charged with public corruption,

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Speaker 8: they can't possibly be charged or investigated or removed because

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Speaker 8: how could they do their job. Well, the answer is

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Speaker 8: they can resign when they are indicted by a grand jury.

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Speaker 8: So the preposterousness of what the Trump administration and Emil

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Speaker 8: Bovet has done to their very own Justice Department and

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Speaker 8: the Office of Public Integrity should not go unnoticed.

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Speaker 4: Here amazing analysis from Rick and Genie, and you mentioned

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Speaker 4: Andrew Cuomo. Genie, could we be in a world, Rick

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Speaker 4: where Donald Trump helps to reform the political careers of

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Speaker 4: both Eric Adams and Andrew Cuomo.

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Speaker 10: Well, here just letting blog out of jail from Chicago

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Speaker 10: and appointed him to a job. So I think this

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Speaker 10: is sort of, you know, like he's the Grim Reaper,

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Speaker 10: but in reverse he takes you know, politically dead people

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Speaker 10: and turns them into superstars. And I don't know, I mean,

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Speaker 10: like maybe this is just something he wants to do

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Speaker 10: because he felt that he was unfairly prosecuted by the

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Speaker 10: legal system. And I kind of get that, right, I mean,

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Speaker 10: in his mind all of this was made up, and

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Speaker 10: he probably figures everybody who has the same kind of

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Speaker 10: thing a political career, either past or present, who are

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Speaker 10: being pursued by the Justice Department must be just as innocent.

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Speaker 10: As he is, and so that kind of transference makes sense,

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Speaker 10: but it doesn't preclude the fact that some of these

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Speaker 10: people are guilty as hell and they probably ought to

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Speaker 10: be locked up.

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Speaker 6: So I don't know.

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Speaker 10: I mean, I think that anybody who thinks that he's

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Speaker 10: going to make decisions based on the political access or

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Speaker 10: failure of the Republicans the Democrats, it's all about whether

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Speaker 10: or not it's his success, and that will determine the alcolaes.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so Geenie, how long? And so we see Andrew

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Speaker 4: Cuomo on the patio at mar A Lago.

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Speaker 8: I think it could be imminent. Joe Matthew, you know,

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Speaker 8: it looks like he again will announce in March. It's

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Speaker 8: all the signs are pointing in that direction, including a

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Speaker 8: support from some of his you know, not so long

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Speaker 8: ago fierce opponents. So that looks likely. And you know,

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Speaker 8: speaking of old people coming back, Anthony Wiener says he

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Speaker 8: is running for city council in New York. So no,

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Speaker 8: they are all coming back, you know, by let by guns,

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Speaker 8: be byguns. And I think the real loser here again

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Speaker 8: is the fact that public integrity matters our justice department

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Speaker 8: at the federal and state level have to be able

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Speaker 8: to investigate on behalf of the public. When we have

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Speaker 8: public officials who who have been accused of wrongdoing, the

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Speaker 8: idea that you can't charge them because then they won't

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Speaker 8: be able to do the bidding of another public official,

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Speaker 8: even the president, is the height of irresponsibility. And hopefully

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Speaker 8: that is addressed. But I I, you know, looking at

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Speaker 8: well Goidovich, looking at all these folks coming back, it

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Speaker 8: seems to be public corruption be dammed.

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Speaker 6: Well, I guess that's true.

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Speaker 4: You know, I don't know what Bloggo thinks about this

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Speaker 4: whole thing, but producer James does invoke the name of

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Speaker 4: Curtis Sliwa. Rick, is it time to break out the

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Speaker 4: red beret here or what?

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Speaker 6: I don't know.

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Speaker 10: I'm still looking for a Republican who could run in

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Speaker 10: all this, because what an opportunity for Republicans in New

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Speaker 10: York City.

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Speaker 4: You're here, You're the feral cats, Rick Davis and Jeanie

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Speaker 4: Shanzino with a conversation we thought we'd never have, but

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Speaker 4: I guess we can say that. Every day here on

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Speaker 4: this program.

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440
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 4: The termination notices hitting over the weekend after a raft

441
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 4: of executive actions signed by the President. We've talked about

442
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 4: them in real time, and now we're looking at the fallout.

443
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 4: Jim Jones, the head of the Food division at the

444
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 4: US Food and Drug Administration, oversaw the banning of red

445
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 4: dye number three earlier this.

446
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 6: Year, which RFK Junior, of course won.

447
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 4: He stepped down yesterday quit, pointing to the layoffs of

448
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:18,160
Speaker 4: eighty nine staffers in the Foond division as indiscriminate, fruitless

449
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,360
Speaker 4: for me to continue in this role, says his statement.

450
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 4: The top official at the Social Security Administration also stepped

451
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 4: down this weekend after the DOGE went after Social Security.

452
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 4: Michelle King, the acting commissioner out and the question is

453
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 4: who's next here. It does appear the FAA is part

454
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 4: of what's next as they try to envision ways to

455
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 4: overhaul the air traffic control system and of course lay

456
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 4: off a lot of people. Union leaders said the FAA

457
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 4: canned four hundred probationary employees as part of the.

458
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:57,159
Speaker 6: Valentine's Day massacre. And so now it's on to NASA now.

459
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 4: The last we checked here considered a national asset by

460
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 4: both Democrats and Republicans. One of the few bipartisan activities

461
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 4: in Washington is.

462
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 6: Feeling good about our space program.

463
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 4: On Tuesday, Donald Trump signed an executive order saying that

464
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 4: DOGE would be installed in agencies, including NASA. By Thursday

465
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 4: of last week. They were on site. Now, We've been

466
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 4: doing a lot of reporting on this, and I've also

467
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 4: been following the work of Keith Cowing, who you hear

468
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 4: and see on this program pretty often whenever we talk

469
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 4: about the space program, it's usually about something good. When

470
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 4: we talk to Keith, something good's about to happen. Hard

471
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 4: to tell this time. Former NASA employee, he's been in

472
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 4: the agency himself. He's now editor at NASA Watch and

473
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 4: has been on the forefront of this coverage the downsizing

474
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:43,679
Speaker 4: of NASA.

475
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 6: Keith, it's good to have you back. Welcome.

476
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 4: Have we seen the layoffs we're going to get from

477
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 4: NASA or is this just the beginning, Because people inside

478
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 4: the agency are very worried. Meetings are being canceled. They

479
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 4: don't know if they're going to have a program tomorrow.

480
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 7: Well, if you look across the government, this is happening everywhere,

481
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 7: but at NASA, the little agency that I follow, this is.

482
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:05,959
Speaker 9: Sort of the pregame show.

483
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 7: Early on when they put these all these executive orders out,

484
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 7: they said, by the way, identify all the probationary employees

485
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,679
Speaker 7: one or two years, because quote they're the easiest to

486
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 7: get rid of, or they have the fewest complaints if

487
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 7: you just let them go for almost any reason. So

488
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 7: that's now happening, and it's happening in real time. As

489
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 7: we as we talk right now. After that, though, is

490
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 7: the main attraction, which is a reduction in force or

491
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,719
Speaker 7: a riff. And that's where they go across a larger

492
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 7: swath of an agency and really try and dig in

493
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 7: to get this. You know, pick a number I here,

494
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 7: ten percent was the ideal, but twenty five percent reduction

495
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 7: in force and so you're gonna have a lot of

496
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 7: people who are not in a particularly good place for

497
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 7: a long time.

498
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 4: Boy, it sure sounds like it. So this is all right,

499
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 4: just probationary. Then the real stuff is to follow.

500
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 6: Uh.

501
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 4: If Donald Trump and the administration here are going for

502
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 4: twenty five billion dollars in budget cuts when it comes

503
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 4: time to craft.

504
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 6: A budget this year, what would that look like? Keith?

505
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 4: And when you back off, here is the endgame canceling

506
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:11,439
Speaker 4: the Artemis program.

507
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 6: What does Elon Musk want to do to NASA?

508
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 9: I don't know if it's.

509
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 7: Elon per se as a larger swarm of people that

510
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 7: are using the Project twenty twenty five and other metrics

511
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 7: to guide what they're going to do. As far as

512
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 7: the Artemis program goes. The issue isn't the program going

513
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 7: back to the moon. It's the big sols. Rocket Boeing

514
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 7: has sort of gotten a bit of the writing on

515
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 7: the wall, and they put a war notice out to

516
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 7: for saying that there might be up to upwards a

517
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 7: four h or so layoffs. But here's the thing. If

518
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 7: you start laying off civil servants, you're going to cut

519
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 7: your budget a little bit, but not a whole bunch,

520
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 7: because it's really not the biggest part of the federal budget.

521
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 7: But the knee jerk reaction is that NASA, oh, well,

522
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,719
Speaker 7: we'll just get contractors to do that work. Well, you know,

523
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 7: you can just fire them with a nasty look.

524
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 9: You don't even have.

525
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 7: To go through any procedures other than what's in the contract.

526
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 6: So ask yourself.

527
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 7: You put this with, oh, we want to go to

528
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 7: Mars by twenty twenty five to eight whatever, you're going

529
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 7: to do that with less people. You know, if it

530
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,959
Speaker 7: was a private sector company, you might get away with that,

531
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 7: but this is a government agency with government contracts, and

532
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 7: it's probably going to take them two or three years

533
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 7: to figure out what's left. Much less not be able

534
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 7: to do a sprint thing to Mars and to the

535
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 7: Moon and to build a new space station and all

536
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 7: the other things that NASA does well.

537
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 4: And who runs the biggest space contractor in the world

538
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 4: Keith Right now, apparently.

539
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,239
Speaker 7: It's it's space X with Elon Musk. But you know,

540
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,959
Speaker 7: there's I think people would ask me, you know about this.

541
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 7: I don't agree necessarily with his political science, but I

542
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 7: do like his rocket science, and his company has a

543
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 7: lot of people there that they're just there to build

544
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 7: rocket ships and explore the universe. So you got to

545
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 7: kind of parse the personalities here. But at the end

546
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 7: of the day, it's the White House. You know, elections

547
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,959
Speaker 7: have consequences. It's the people in the news with the names,

548
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 7: and it's going against the government as a whole. Again,

549
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 7: poor little NASA just happens to be a little more

550
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 7: vulnerable because you can't just take too many pieces out

551
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 7: of the rocket ship because it'll blow up.

552
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 6: Wow.

553
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 4: So on January thirty first, Keith NASA paused all activities

554
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 4: of advisory organizations inside the agency and you can talk

555
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 4: about these are scientific groups. They focus on planetary science

556
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 4: and more esoteric fields. The first group affected the Mercury

557
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 4: Exploration Assessment Group. They're supposed to gather on the fourth

558
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 4: of February for a couple of days of talks here

559
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 4: and meetings about some of the planning that they were

560
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 4: doing here.

561
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 6: Sixty people set to show up JOHNS.

562
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 4: Hopkins Applied Physics Research Lab in suburban Washington. This is

563
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 4: according to the Washington Post. After the DEI orders went

564
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,479
Speaker 4: out from the agency, they try they canceled one topic.

565
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 4: I guess that was talking about DEI and trying to

566
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 4: lift up some community who didn't have access to a

567
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 4: lot of science training. And they thought the meeting was compliant.

568
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 4: On January thirty first, NASA forced them to cancel the

569
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 4: entire thing. This is happening across different groups in the agency.

570
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 4: What does it mean for scientific research, for innovation and

571
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 4: what actually people want to get out of NASA?

572
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 7: Well, nothing good, And of course you know again with NASA,

573
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 7: there's other space agencies. But I just tweeted something, this

574
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 7: is the most I worked there. It's the most amazing

575
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 7: group of people. You need to collaborate with each other

576
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 7: and talk. And then they've touched the Sun, they've gone

577
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 7: to every planet and we're interstellar space.

578
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 9: Now.

579
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 7: You just don't sit down and do that. You have

580
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 7: to work with these groups, and these advisory committees are

581
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 7: usually sanity checks like the program managers itself says hey,

582
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 7: I want to point the telescope here, here, here or there,

583
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 7: and they say, you know what, you should do this,

584
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 7: you should do that. Yeah, we think it's good and

585
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 7: it's just a sanity check, but it's also those people

586
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 7: are also being paid to do the science, so sting

587
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 7: these meetings. They're not just you know, if they said hey,

588
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 7: we're going to go to Zoom, I think all right,

589
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 7: maybe they're going to save some travel funds. No, they're

590
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 7: not doing any of these meetings at all. And when

591
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 7: it comes to the DEEI thing again, you can go

592
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 7: wherever you are on that position. But NASA has always,

593
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 7: as an agency, tried to be is inclusive of everybody everywhere,

594
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 7: even when I was a little kid in the sixties.

595
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 7: And so you know, if you're over zealous with OAP

596
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 7: that looks like a word, I can't use it. You

597
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 7: just slice things off, and that's what's happening.

598
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 4: What do you think of Jared Isaacman, This is the

599
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 4: billionaire entrepreneur has actually been to space a couple of

600
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 4: times because he's extremely wealthy. He's been a customer of

601
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 4: SpaceX and he's set to run the agency what experience

602
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 4: beyond his own space tourism does he bring to the table.

603
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 7: Well, I'm looking forward to it, you'd be quite honest

604
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 7: with you. The thing that caught me off guard at

605
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 7: first was Oh, this guy's going to buy these flights.

606
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 7: But then like a second later he said, and we're

607
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 7: going to raise a fast amount of money for Saint Jude,

608
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 7: And I go, all right, that's my sort of guy.

609
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 7: You know, you take the space exploration, you take non

610
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 7: traditional people up there, and you go out of your

611
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 7: way and every way possible to make a good thing

612
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 7: on Earth elsewhere in an unrelated sector, come along with

613
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 7: it and hope and inspire and all that sort of stuff.

614
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 7: So that that got me as a fan right off

615
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 7: the bat. He's gone twice. He puts his money where

616
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 7: his mouth is. He started his own company, so I mean,

617
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 7: you know, rich people tend to figure out how to

618
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 7: do things, and he's got sort of a raw enthusiasm

619
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 7: that reminds me a bit of Jim Bridenstein, who is

620
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 7: the administrator to back you know where they just really want.

621
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 7: They got the whole Star Trek, star Wars, let's explore

622
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 7: the universe things, So you need other skills they'll bring

623
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 7: other people in to help them. But having the raw

624
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 7: I want to go explore space thing embedded in your

625
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 7: head is you know, really important and he's got it

626
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 7: in spades.

627
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, this is nice to hear something good come

628
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 4: out of this conversation. Yeah, is this going to be

629
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 4: the end of the space launch system by the time

630
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 4: DOGE is done?

631
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 7: You know what again, if they if they cancel that,

632
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 7: more people will be off, you know, out of work,

633
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 7: which you know again, work is work, but you got

634
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 7: you know, do we want to go back to the moon? Okay?

635
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 7: Is the SOLS the best way to do it? Well,

636
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 7: it was mandated as it is by Congress, it's cost

637
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 7: many billions more than it should, it's many years late,

638
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 7: and are there other ways to do it?

639
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 6: Yeah?

640
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 7: Elon Musk is making these big rockets like corn silos

641
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 7: in Texas, and if he blows one up, he says, Okay,

642
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 7: I got three more to go.

643
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 6: So maybe we have a different way of going to

644
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 6: do things.

645
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 7: And if we really want to go to the moon

646
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 7: and go elsewhere, maybe we need to bite the bullet

647
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 7: and say, you know, we thought that was the way

648
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 7: to do it, but we've got a better way now

649
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 7: and again, every every SpaceX rocket, every Blue Origin rocket

650
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 7: is built with a lot of X NASA people were

651
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 7: pioneering done by NASA, So you got to be hoping

652
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 7: that NASA's had a real impact on what we're.

653
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 10: Going to do.

654
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 4: So wait, all right, so we do we have some

655
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 4: short term pain here that ends up being a long

656
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 4: term solution. Maybe this is all good for NASA, Keith,

657
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 4: Is that what I've learned in talking with you, Well.

658
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 7: When I left NASA, I had to quit, but they

659
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 7: fired everybody I worked in the space Station Freedom program,

660
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 7: which if you look at the space station now, it's

661
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 7: all the stuff we built, just with different names on it.

662
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 7: But it's not fun when you're on the street and

663
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,879
Speaker 7: your friends are on the street. But NASA rebounded, and

664
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 7: you would hope that NASA learns from these things. It's,

665
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 7: you know, never a good reason to do something bad,

666
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:25,879
Speaker 7: but you kind of make it worse if you don't

667
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 7: learn from it. I would hope that the NASA that

668
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 7: results from this, and the contractors community and.

669
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 9: The science community.

670
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, if you parse.

671
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 7: It down, will you have a clear way of doing things?

672
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 7: If that's what comes from this, then okay, we'll look

673
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 7: back and say, I guess it was good after all.

674
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 7: But if it doesn't.

675
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 6: From NASA, watch Keith Cowing.

676
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 4: Are you a Star Trek Guy or a Star Wars Guy,

677
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 4: Keith Star Trek, Star Trek Guy.

678
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 6: I should have I should have known that. I'm sorry

679
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 6: I even asked you.

680
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch

681
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on

682
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 1: Apple Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App.

683
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our

684
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty.

685
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 2: To with tariffs threatened against Columbia, then pulled back, threatened

686
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 2: against Canada and Mexico, delayed until a few weeks from now,

687
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 2: implemented on all Chinese imports, implemented on steel and aluminum imports.

688
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: And as we've heard from the President repeatedly, more very

689
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 2: well could be coming, including what he floated last week.

690
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,760
Speaker 2: April second, he's looking at auto.

691
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 6: Tariffs, Joe, And that was all off the top of

692
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 6: her head. With more where this could come from.

693
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, April second, we didn't want to do April Fool's Day.

694
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,919
Speaker 4: The idea of auto tariffs going into effect though really

695
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,879
Speaker 4: causing the question the way that our auto companies make

696
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 4: the vehicles going back and forth across the border, complicating

697
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 4: the idea when it comes to Mexico and Canada. And

698
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 4: remember what Jim Farley said, it would blow a hole

699
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 4: in the US industry that we've ever seen. You paid

700
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 4: a visit to Capitol Hill to deliver that message last week.

701
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 4: It makes you wonder the impact of reciprocal tariffs as well, if.

702
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 6: They come around to your point? Right, this all comes together?

703
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 6: Was that what I added?

704
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 2: Getting something?

705
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 6: There's always another. John Bazella knows all about this.

706
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 4: He is the President's CEO of the Alliance for Automotive Innovation,

707
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 4: So what must be going through his minds as ev

708
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 4: incentives are also rescinded? John, It's good to see you.

709
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 6: Welcome.

710
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 4: I don't know how you make sense of all of this.

711
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 4: We can barely get through an intro to talk to

712
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 4: somebody like you because there's so much going on. What

713
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 4: is really about to happen when it comes to auto tariffs?

714
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 4: Not the bluster but the reality.

715
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 11: Yeah, well, first of all, thanks thanks for having me.

716
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 11: Here's what I think Jim was getting at. When you

717
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 11: look at the automotive industry here in the United States,

718
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 11: for over twenty five years now, we have had a

719
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 11: seamless North American industry. As you mentioned just a minute ago,

720
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 11: joe parts, components, and vehicles flow back and forth across

721
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 11: the border. In some cases components several times before they

722
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 11: become a finished vehicle. This benefits American consumers. We get

723
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 11: more affordable vehicles, we get more choice, and the US

724
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 11: ends up more competitive as a result of it. So

725
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 11: here's what I think Jim's getting at. If you look

726
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 11: at the scale of this industry, it's massive, these plants

727
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 11: and you've been in them, millions of feet square feet

728
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 11: under roof. These are massive assets. You cannot move these

729
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 11: assets overnight. You can't shift supply chains overnight, you can't

730
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 11: move production overnight. So what could happen is costs could

731
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 11: increase on consumers before jobs come into the United States.

732
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 11: That's the dilemma, that's the challenge of tariffs that appear

733
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 11: out of nowhere.

734
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 2: Well, but the President would argue that the tariffs are

735
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 2: intended to protect American industry, protect American made cars. So

736
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 2: what is the appropriate way to do that? If it's

737
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 2: not through policies like this.

738
00:37:58,040 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 9: Yeah.

739
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 11: Well, first of all, I think President Trump really understands

740
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 11: the importance of a healthy and competitive auto industry. I

741
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,760
Speaker 11: have no doubt about that. I listened carefully during the campaign.

742
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 11: We've had an opportunity to talk to the team. I

743
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 11: feel like he understands this, this importance, the importance of

744
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 11: a competitive auto industry. I think the way to focus

745
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 11: on this is through discussions like well, that will occur

746
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 11: when USMCA, for example, is reviewed, in other words, the

747
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 11: trade agreement between the US, Mexico and Canada. So during

748
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 11: that process, these are the types of conversations that should

749
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 11: take place. What should those parties to the agreement and

750
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 11: do in order to comply with duty free trade? Those

751
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 11: are reasonable questions, and I think that's the ultimately what

752
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 11: Jim saying is, look, we need a review.

753
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 4: Sticking with Jim Farley for a minute. After he came

754
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 4: to Washington, he warmed up to the idea of putting

755
00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 4: tariffs on imported vehicles. We applaud President Trump's idea to

756
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,240
Speaker 4: look at all vehicle imports into the US an important

757
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 4: step forward, which now then calls it the question what's

758
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 4: an important vehicle? Because We just talked about American cars

759
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 4: going back and forth across the border for various stages

760
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 4: of assembly.

761
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 6: Does that count.

762
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's a great question.

763
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 11: Right there is no one hundred percent US vehicle or

764
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,240
Speaker 11: one hundred percent Mexican made vehicle or one hundred percent

765
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 11: Canadian made vehicle.

766
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 6: And you've got Europeans assembling cars here in the US.

767
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 9: So it's it's a to me.

768
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 11: The big question is do we need and want a

769
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 11: healthy and competitive auto industry in the United States?

770
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 9: And I think the answer to that, and I think the.

771
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 11: President agrees, is yes, because it's important to our economic

772
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 11: security and it's important to our national security. And when

773
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 11: you think about how cutting edge this the manufacturing sector is,

774
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,759
Speaker 11: the automotive sector is in the United States, and how

775
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 11: important technology is to vehicles and how important that technology

776
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,720
Speaker 11: is to our national defense, I think that you really

777
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 11: do need to focus on competitiveness, and I.

778
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 9: Think that's what this administration will do.

779
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,919
Speaker 2: And is it competitiveness specifically with China that you're most

780
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 2: focused on.

781
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 11: Yeah, I think that's a great point. When you look

782
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 11: at what's happening. There is an intense global competition for

783
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 11: automotive investments and It's really happening in three areas China clearly.

784
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:22,760
Speaker 9: The United States, and Europe.

785
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 11: And it's important that the US is competitive in this dynamic.

786
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 11: Right now, what you see in China, and I was

787
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 11: recently there just before the end of the year, what

788
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 11: you see there is an industry with massive overcapacity, lots

789
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 11: of government subsidies, and a desire to export all that

790
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 11: extra capacity. And the question is is this trade that's

791
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 11: likely to happen, is it fair right or is this

792
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 11: anti competitive behavior? And so that is really going to

793
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 11: be an important question for policymakers when we.

794
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 6: Talk about China.

795
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,439
Speaker 4: We're not going to see BYD selling cars here anytime soon,

796
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 4: I can only imagine. But what will be the impact,

797
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 4: with that said, of the lifting or the rescinding of

798
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 4: EV tax credits and other incentives. Elon Musk is doing

799
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 4: pretty well at Tesla right now, but you've also got

800
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 4: Jim Farley, Mary Barra and others trying to break into

801
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 4: this Nason business.

802
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 6: What does this bring to the table.

803
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,879
Speaker 11: Yeah, I think context is really important here. There's two

804
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 11: bits of context I think we have to understand when

805
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 11: we talk about the EV incentives. The first piece of

806
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 11: context is we right now as an auto industry in

807
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 11: the United States, fast face significant challenging automotive regulations emission standards.

808
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 11: Those really challenging emission standards both set at the federal

809
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 11: level in the Biden administration and by the state of California.

810
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 11: And that's a crazy land story we can get into.

811
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:03,279
Speaker 11: Those were based on the assumption that ev incentives would stay. Yes,

812
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 11: so if you take the incentives out, my question to

813
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 11: you would be.

814
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 9: Did the standards go away? And so that's context number one.

815
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 9: Context number two.

816
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 11: What we were just talking about the importance of a

817
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 11: healthy and competitive industry in this competition with China and

818
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 11: the Chinese automotive industry. I would make an argument that

819
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 11: the incentives are important in both sets of contexts. In

820
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 11: other words, they are important in a context where you've

821
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 11: got really aggressive standards, and they're particularly important as we

822
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 11: transform our industrial base to remain competitive and become competitive

823
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 11: with China.

824
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 2: Well, and you just in your first answer talking to

825
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 2: us about China, talked about how China heavily subsidizes its own,

826
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 2: yeah automotive industry. So is it a mistake for the

827
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 2: US to be pulling back subsidies of any kind? Do

828
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 2: we actually need more of them.

829
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,280
Speaker 11: Yeah, I look, I think this is exactly the question.

830
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 11: This is exactly the question. If you believe in a healthy,

831
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 11: competitive auto industry, and you believe that that industry, that

832
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 11: competitive and healthy in industry is supportive of our economic

833
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 11: and national security, you should look at a balance between

834
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 11: regulation and policy, and in this case, policy would be incentives.

835
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 9: There are.

836
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 11: These incentives are not just the consumer incentives that a

837
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 11: lot of people have focused on. In other words, money

838
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 11: at available at the dealership to support the purchase of

839
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 11: an EV. We're talking about incentives to transform the industrial base,

840
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 11: to build the automotive industry of the future. That is

841
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 11: really important for this industry.

842
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 4: What does this mean for innovation at a time when

843
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 4: we realize, you know what, most people are buying hybrids,

844
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 4: not evs, right, and that Elon Musk may not have

845
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,439
Speaker 4: a consumer priced vehicle anytime soon.

846
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 1: Right.

847
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 9: Hybrids are a form of electrified vehicle. Right. And I

848
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:50,839
Speaker 9: love this.

849
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 11: Idea that consumers have choice, and I think that's essential.

850
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 11: They should have a choice a gasoline vehicle if it

851
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 11: fits their wants and needs, a hybrid, a plug in hybrid,

852
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 11: or a battery.

853
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,760
Speaker 6: Keep up with China when it comes to innovation, that's

854
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 6: the key.

855
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 11: The key is you need an innovative and vibrant auto

856
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,720
Speaker 11: industry and so to be able to have choice, choice,

857
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 11: including electrified vehicles, is going to be really important. So

858
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 11: you've got to build an industrial base to have that

859
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 11: innovation and choice.

860
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 2: Well, and obviously we've talked about and you were talking

861
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 2: about these large facilities that actually assemble these cars, but

862
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 2: what about battery technology. What about the chips that need

863
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 2: to power these cars that can do us so much

864
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 2: more from a technological basis. Talk to us about kind

865
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 2: of those lower rungs of this.

866
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 11: Yeah, and they're not much lower, right if you think

867
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 11: about it. I mean, the battery is critical to the vehicle,

868
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 11: a hybrid vehicle as well as a battery electric vehicle,

869
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:48,959
Speaker 11: and so are these computer chips. Vehicles are effectively consumers

870
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 11: excuse me, computers on wheels, and consumers recognize this. And

871
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 11: so you need to have access to cutting edge technology.

872
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 11: That means computer chips, semiconductors, and it also means the

873
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 11: latest battery technology. And so investments. Now, should government do

874
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 11: all of this, absolutely not, But the innovators are leading

875
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 11: and so you see chipset manufacturers investing in the United States.

876
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 11: You see battery manufacturers investing in the United States. The

877
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 11: question is for some period of time, should there be

878
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 11: some supportive policy that encourages those investments while the market

879
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 11: remains choppy. The market is going to be spiky for

880
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 11: some period of time as we transform to these new technologies.

881
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 4: We're almost out of time. When do we get ROBOTAXI?

882
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 4: When does self driving happen? For real?

883
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 6: Let's get to the innovation, the fun stuff for him.

884
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 11: Well, look, I think you can go to some places

885
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 11: and get into robotax and right now, absolutely, you know

886
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 11: what the problem is with highly automated vehicles. The holdup

887
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 11: is not the engineering or the science. The holdup is

888
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:55,359
Speaker 11: the policy. Once again, we need a national policy that

889
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 11: recognizes again same idea, the competitive importance of this NEXTOK

890
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,320
Speaker 11: technology in the US market.

891
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 2: So is this when we're kind of talking about that

892
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 2: knowing that Donald Trump and part campaigned on deregulating, on

893
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 2: making things like permitting easier, that's all part and parcel the.

894
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 6: Way you're talking.

895
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 9: Yeah, Oh, I think absolutely.

896
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 11: What I saw in the first Trump administration was a

897
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 11: welcoming of this type of technology and flexible tools in

898
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 11: the Department of Transportation toolbox to encourage those technologies. I

899
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 11: look forward to those conversations with this set of regulators.

900
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,399
Speaker 2: Is there a safety trade off there if you deregulate

901
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 2: too much?

902
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 9: Absolutely not. There can't be a safety trade off. Absolutely.

903
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 11: Safety has to be first and foremost in the minds

904
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,200
Speaker 11: of what we do, and I think that's one of

905
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 11: the benefits.

906
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 9: Of highly automated vehicle technology is more safety.

907
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 4: I just want to know when I can read on

908
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 4: my way to work. I don't want to even look

909
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 4: out the window. I want the car to drive me

910
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:54,439
Speaker 4: to work. That's what I'm getting at here. You want

911
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:55,240
Speaker 4: one of these, right.

912
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 11: I would love one of those now. By the way,

913
00:46:57,760 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 11: in our commutes in Washington, d C.

914
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:03,760
Speaker 4: That's a lot of time. It's a massive productivity story. Also,

915
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 4: the car would drive my seventeen year old. The seventeen

916
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 4: year old would not drive the car, something that I

917
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:09,839
Speaker 4: think masurance company wants.

918
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 11: We are half joking, but I know you're serious. I

919
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 11: as we're talking about productivity gains, we're also talking about

920
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 11: access to personal mobility for people who can't drive.

921
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,319
Speaker 6: How about that not to mention safety. I guess while

922
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:21,919
Speaker 6: we're out of here.

923
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:23,720
Speaker 4: You've got a lot to figure out in the next

924
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 4: couple of years. To please get back to.

925
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 6: Us on the April.

926
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 4: Maybe I love it that that's true. You should be available.

927
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 4: John Bozzella, president's CEO, Alliance for Automotive Innovation. Great to

928
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 4: meet you and thank you for bringing your experience in

929
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 4: point of view to us here.

930
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 6: At the table. Thanks for listening to the Balance of

931
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 6: Power podcast.

932
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,839
Speaker 4: Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify,

933
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 4: or wherever you get your podcasts, and you can find

934
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 4: us live every weekday from Washington, DC at noontime Eastern

935
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 4: at Bloomberg dot com.