WEBVTT - Pain

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, you pressed play you guys, somebody pressed play battle stations. Everybody,

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<v Speaker 1>It's time to podcast. Welcome. I'm Dessa And this is

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<v Speaker 1>deeply human where we trapes off through the wilderness of

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<v Speaker 1>our own minds to find out why we do the

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<v Speaker 1>things we do. The star of this episode is pain,

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<v Speaker 1>how we perceive it, and how it can change the

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<v Speaker 1>way that we perceive ourselves. When I was a teenager,

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<v Speaker 1>a coffee shop called Muddy Waters was where all the

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<v Speaker 1>art and trouble happened. Muddies was full of X addicts,

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<v Speaker 1>stick and polke tattoos, poets with their sketch pads, rappers

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<v Speaker 1>and their skateboards, everybody falling in and out of love

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<v Speaker 1>with one another, and almost nobody paying full price for

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<v Speaker 1>the coffee. Sarah was one of the women who ran

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<v Speaker 1>the place. She had long, messy raspberry colored hair, was

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<v Speaker 1>part p J. Harvey, part Little Mermaid, and she tolerated

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<v Speaker 1>zero insolence for many body, but if you got evicted

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<v Speaker 1>or fired or pregnant, she was supporting the storm. A

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<v Speaker 1>lot of regulars Harvard crushes on Sarah. People respected her

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<v Speaker 1>because she was clever and principled and brave, and she

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<v Speaker 1>had this extra gravitas because we all knew that she

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<v Speaker 1>was really, really sick and in a lot of pain.

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<v Speaker 1>I became acutely aware of this mystique thing, like the

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<v Speaker 1>iconic sick white female. It always reminds me of little

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<v Speaker 1>women that like tragically ill, pretty one who coughs up blood,

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<v Speaker 1>talks really quietly, and she's sickly and everyone loves her.

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<v Speaker 1>And I found it so irritating. Sarah was diagnosed with

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<v Speaker 1>diabetes when she was eighteen months old, and with several

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<v Speaker 1>autoimmune diseases after that. She ended up needing a bunch

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<v Speaker 1>of surgeries. The extreme abdominal pain started when I was

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<v Speaker 1>probably sixteen. Eventually I got a diagnosis that kind of

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<v Speaker 1>explained it, but there's no real treatment for it, so

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<v Speaker 1>I was in just constant, pretty excruciating abdominal pain. To

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<v Speaker 1>hurt is a private experience and difficult to discuss. I

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<v Speaker 1>can't hold my pain up to the light for you

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<v Speaker 1>to examine, or drape it around your shoulders to see

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<v Speaker 1>how it might fit. Pain is a room for one

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<v Speaker 1>only you can enter, and sometimes you can't leave. Also,

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<v Speaker 1>we don't have a great vocabulary for pain. We shave

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<v Speaker 1>our perceptions of red into very fine slices for millions

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<v Speaker 1>scarlet Crimson Maroons series, but we don't name discreete pain

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<v Speaker 1>sensations in the same way. This is pretty graphic, but

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<v Speaker 1>the only way I could ever think of describe it

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<v Speaker 1>was that it felt like I was rotting in my mind.

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<v Speaker 1>If you cut open my abdomen, you would find just

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<v Speaker 1>everything infected and flamed, cramping and rotting. I felt like death,

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<v Speaker 1>but slow. But of course, no matter how vivid the description,

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<v Speaker 1>the only pain you can know intimately is your own.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's burn you, Okay, then let's burn me. That's

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<v Speaker 1>Irene Tracy, a neuroscientist at Oxford. She studies exactly how

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<v Speaker 1>humans perceive pain, which means she's often got to hurt

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<v Speaker 1>them herself. We generally have a sort of torture chamber

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<v Speaker 1>suite of every device man into man, where we can burn,

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<v Speaker 1>or we freeze, or we poke, or we put like

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<v Speaker 1>either mustard oil on or chili pepper cream on. So

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<v Speaker 1>what we have here is a little homebuilt device on

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<v Speaker 1>the table between us. Irene's got a device about the

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<v Speaker 1>size of a lunchbox. It's gray metal with dials and buttons,

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<v Speaker 1>some duct tape and a long black wire comes out

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<v Speaker 1>one side that's connected to like a little circuit board

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<v Speaker 1>looking thing, a shiny square roughly the size of a

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<v Speaker 1>postage stamp. Irene presses it against the bare skin on

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<v Speaker 1>the inside of my right forearm. So I can zip

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<v Speaker 1>up thirty degrees in less than a second, and it'll

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<v Speaker 1>be a lot of nobody's been scarred or blistering. Um, well,

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<v Speaker 1>we've had the open I'm not gonna lie you know that.

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<v Speaker 1>You get the old thing happened to be over twenty

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<v Speaker 1>five years right, there'll be a lot of deep right,

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<v Speaker 1>are you ready? I am? That hurts. So I would

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<v Speaker 1>say that if one is just on the threshold of

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<v Speaker 1>being codd is pain, I would say that was I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know. Three okay, okay, So we can go up

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit more than which is always good. So

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<v Speaker 1>we'll take it up just a wee bit. Okay, quick

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<v Speaker 1>freeze frame Here for a comment on pain scales in

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<v Speaker 1>medical environments, people are often asked to rank their pain

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<v Speaker 1>on a scale of one to ten. You might have

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<v Speaker 1>been asked to do it by your doctor, but here's

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<v Speaker 1>Sarah on why that's a problem. Everyone's scale is different

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<v Speaker 1>because your ten is always the worst pain you've ever had,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's not the worst pain you could have. So

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<v Speaker 1>your ten changes over time, and over the course of

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<v Speaker 1>ten surgery. As that ten, the bar for a ten

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<v Speaker 1>got very high. You know. That's where I can't take

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<v Speaker 1>a full breath, I can't cry, I can't talk, and

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<v Speaker 1>then down to I can still live my daily life.

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<v Speaker 1>And then sometimes I can't talk for thirty seconds because

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<v Speaker 1>I'm in so much pain, but it's going to go away.

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<v Speaker 1>I would give that four, but someone else might give

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<v Speaker 1>it a seven because it is so painful in that moment.

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<v Speaker 1>Your standard for what's high changes. It's easy to see

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<v Speaker 1>how this sort of variance and patient reports could pose

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<v Speaker 1>a challenge for their health care. If my four is

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<v Speaker 1>your seven, how is the doctor supposed to know what

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<v Speaker 1>sort of pain killer we need and in what dosage?

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<v Speaker 1>One of us might be grinding your teeth till morning.

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<v Speaker 1>Well the other winds up loopy and flirting with the

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<v Speaker 1>night nurse. Okay, back to the lab. Wow Okay, wow

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<v Speaker 1>was not the first word that came to mind. That

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<v Speaker 1>is absolutely me trying to active in front of a

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<v Speaker 1>microphone on the BBC. Well like experiencing an unexpectedly intense

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<v Speaker 1>dose of pain which left to mark. But let zoom

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<v Speaker 1>in on what exactly is going on inside the body

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<v Speaker 1>at a moment like this. We come equipped with three

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<v Speaker 1>distinct kinds of pain receptors, thermal, chemical, and mechanical. The

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<v Speaker 1>thermal receptors respond to temperature. The chemical ones sense harmful

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<v Speaker 1>substances like the pepper cream that Irene uses, and the

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<v Speaker 1>mechanical ones are for when you just cut or bang

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<v Speaker 1>or smash yourself. When you get hurt, these receptors send

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<v Speaker 1>off a distress signal, and the signals go whizzing in

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<v Speaker 1>a long nerves in your arms or your legs to

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<v Speaker 1>your spinal cord, which is this big sort of channel

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<v Speaker 1>sending signals up to the brain. It's not till the

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<v Speaker 1>brain gets those signals that pain emerges. Think of an

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<v Speaker 1>orchestral score. You've got a lot of notes on paper,

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<v Speaker 1>but until they're sounded by an instrument m there's no music.

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<v Speaker 1>My burned arm doesn't actually hurt directly. The nerve signals

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<v Speaker 1>have to be processed by my brain. If it doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>register in the brain, there is no pain. And her

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<v Speaker 1>brains take a lot of artistic license and the interpretation

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<v Speaker 1>of these signals if you're tired, the same signal might

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<v Speaker 1>be amplified to hurt more. If you're distracted, say by

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<v Speaker 1>a pain researcher who is asking you to count backwards

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<v Speaker 1>by sevens, you might hurt less. Let's see one, twenty one,

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<v Speaker 1>one oh six. Distraction is great, and that's a big

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<v Speaker 1>sort of free analgesia call pain relief you can get.

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<v Speaker 1>So you've got these incredible systems in the brains them

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<v Speaker 1>whose sole job it is is to communicate down to

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<v Speaker 1>the bottom of the spain called where the signals are

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<v Speaker 1>coming in, and just stop them at that point so

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<v Speaker 1>they don't come up. They don't come in the brain

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<v Speaker 1>and feel pain. Distraction actually works chemically to turn down

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<v Speaker 1>the perception of pain. Even the fact that we think

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<v Speaker 1>something is going to hurt can affect how much it

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<v Speaker 1>really does. Cooling expressional muses, you know, you get the

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<v Speaker 1>pain you expect and you really do. To prove this point,

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<v Speaker 1>Irene's done some very clever experiments with placebos. In one study,

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<v Speaker 1>she recruited a bunch of research subjects willing to let

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<v Speaker 1>her inflict painful burns on their legs. She asked them

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<v Speaker 1>to rate their pain and recorded all their answers. Then

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<v Speaker 1>she gave them an opioid through an IVY drip, and

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<v Speaker 1>as you'd expect, participants reported less pain while receiving the drug.

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<v Speaker 1>If Irene stopped the IVY, the pain ratings went up again.

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<v Speaker 1>But here's the tricky bit. Irene occasionally deceived her subjects

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<v Speaker 1>so that they thought they were receiving an opioid when

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<v Speaker 1>really they were just getting saline. And lo and behold,

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<v Speaker 1>when they believed they were on drugs, they really did

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<v Speaker 1>feel less pain even though they were essentially just getting

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<v Speaker 1>an armful of contact solution, and brain scans supported this finding,

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<v Speaker 1>showing less activity in pain sensing regions of the brain

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<v Speaker 1>when the participants were all plus e boat up. Irene's

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<v Speaker 1>also tested the opposite scenario, where people who were receiving

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<v Speaker 1>the opioid were told they were getting saline. So you've

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<v Speaker 1>got most powerful drug in two thousand years and in

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<v Speaker 1>an instant, I can just manipulate their expectations, and by

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<v Speaker 1>driving a negative expectance, if we can just have it

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<v Speaker 1>override the brain. For fellow word nerds, that's called the

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<v Speaker 1>no sebo effect. Hey, a lot of variables influence pain perception,

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<v Speaker 1>which means identical injuries do not necessarily hurt identically. If

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<v Speaker 1>you and I got matching neck tattoos on the same

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<v Speaker 1>day from the same artist, we might have totally different

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<v Speaker 1>levels of pain, And if we returned in a week

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<v Speaker 1>for a touch up, we might have completely different experiences

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<v Speaker 1>than on the first visit. What the science has told

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<v Speaker 1>us for twenty years is you cannot make a judgment

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<v Speaker 1>call about what pain somebody should be having based on

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<v Speaker 1>what you can measure out in their tissue damage. What

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<v Speaker 1>they say it is is one it is because it

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<v Speaker 1>is this private subject of experience. So far, we've talked

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<v Speaker 1>about acute pain, the garden variety that surges in whenever

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<v Speaker 1>we damage our bodies somehow, but chronic pain functions differently. Historically,

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<v Speaker 1>by ten fifteen years ago, we thought if we fixed

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<v Speaker 1>the thing that calls the pain, then the chronic pain

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<v Speaker 1>will go away. And that model hasn't worked. Nobody is

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<v Speaker 1>sure by some injuries just go on hurting and hurting

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<v Speaker 1>for months or years. You can't predict who's going to

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<v Speaker 1>go chronic or why. In the US, chronic pain affects

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<v Speaker 1>something like one in five adults, just a huge number

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<v Speaker 1>of people. So the pain field has sort of had

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<v Speaker 1>a parallel shift in their thinking. Is that when somebody has,

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<v Speaker 1>after three four months, gone chronic, so to speak, that's

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<v Speaker 1>a whole new set of problems in its own right.

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<v Speaker 1>All your life's journey, all your bumps and scrapes and

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<v Speaker 1>stresses and emotional experiences, the way that the environment changes

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<v Speaker 1>and colors your genetics, so all that is changing, the

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<v Speaker 1>way because your central livst in your brain is wildly

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<v Speaker 1>developing throughout this period, you know, growing, worrying up different bits.

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<v Speaker 1>Literally literally your life's jury changes your brain. My friends,

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<v Speaker 1>Sarah's pain confused her doctors for a long time. I

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<v Speaker 1>think I had an experience that many women have that

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<v Speaker 1>I was told that it literally was impossible that I

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<v Speaker 1>was in pain because the disease i'd finally been diagnosed

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<v Speaker 1>with doesn't cause pain. There's not like an m r

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<v Speaker 1>I or a cat scan or a pet scan or

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<v Speaker 1>anything that can point to what it was. But what

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<v Speaker 1>it was I realized later it was an inflammation of

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<v Speaker 1>my entire digestive tract from my throat all the way

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<v Speaker 1>down through my colon. Talking about pain is challenging because

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<v Speaker 1>it's a private experience, and because we've got a poverty

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<v Speaker 1>of language for it, but also it just sucks socially.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a whole bunch of taboos around illness and speaking

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<v Speaker 1>about it, even in your most intimate relationships. So there

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<v Speaker 1>is pressure on the patient to pretend like they are okay,

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<v Speaker 1>and there is pressure on the other people in the

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<v Speaker 1>room two also pretend it's okay. Family and friends act weird.

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<v Speaker 1>Acquaintances treat you with kid gloves. Even rivals go soft

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<v Speaker 1>when they hear you're in the hospital, and I'm like, dude, no,

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<v Speaker 1>it's okay. Like if you hated me on Wednesday, you

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<v Speaker 1>can hate me on Thursday. It's fine. The illness didn't

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<v Speaker 1>make me a better person, So carry on with whatever

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<v Speaker 1>your normal opinion of me was. I respect that some

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<v Speaker 1>of my best philosophical conversations have been with you, and

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to know how pain affects cognition, because I

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<v Speaker 1>think that's something that bothers you more than most. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>I can't prove it, but I am distinctly dumber than

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<v Speaker 1>I was. My brain is different ten years of constant

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<v Speaker 1>adrenaline and cortis I'll do alter the way that you

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<v Speaker 1>think it fries certain pathways. Sarah's brain hands down one

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<v Speaker 1>are the best brains I know, and I hate the

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<v Speaker 1>idea of its sizzling and all this suffering. Ah, we're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna swivel to a researcher who studies pain from a very,

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<v Speaker 1>very different vantage point. So let's fade up onto a

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<v Speaker 1>scene unfolding on the island nation of Mauritius. Or An

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<v Speaker 1>anthropologist is standing next to a bed of coals, preparing

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<v Speaker 1>to photograph a firewalking ritual, and at some point some

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<v Speaker 1>of the locals they called me and they said, Dave Trius,

0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:02.640
<v Speaker 1>we think you're now one of us. You should do

0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.640
<v Speaker 1>the fire walking ritual just like we do. And my

0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.280
<v Speaker 1>response to that was, well, look, I don't want to

0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:10.360
<v Speaker 1>pretend to be one of you. I'm still a foreign

0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:12.439
<v Speaker 1>anthropologist who was here to do my job. I'm here

0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:15.120
<v Speaker 1>to learn about your customs and it's very important for

0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:18.720
<v Speaker 1>me to be able to observe what you're doing as

0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:22.240
<v Speaker 1>you're doing it. They immediately said, that's fine, Okay, if

0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:23.880
<v Speaker 1>God wants you to do it, then he'll do it.

0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.280
<v Speaker 1>And I said, trust me, God does not want me

0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:29.960
<v Speaker 1>to walk on fire. Apparently I was wrong, because on

0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:33.320
<v Speaker 1>the day of the fireworking ritual, somebody tapped me on

0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:35.240
<v Speaker 1>the shoulder and I turned around, and I looked at

0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.600
<v Speaker 1>the entire village looking at me, expecting me to walk

0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:44.040
<v Speaker 1>on fire. Dmitris Lots has spent his career studying extreme rituals.

0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.000
<v Speaker 1>And I decided it was either to humulation and the

0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.880
<v Speaker 1>major disruption of the ritual or just going through with it.

0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:54.720
<v Speaker 1>And when I came out, people are actually asking me

0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:58.200
<v Speaker 1>the same kinds of ethnographic questions that I were asking them.

0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Demitris has traveled the world trying to understand why people

0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:12.880
<v Speaker 1>voluntarily subject themselves to tortuous levels of pain. So, for example,

0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:15.400
<v Speaker 1>you have in the Philippines you have Catholics who on

0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:20.280
<v Speaker 1>Good Friday would nail themselves on crosses. Similarly, on the

0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:24.080
<v Speaker 1>day of Assura, you have Muslims who will whip themselves

0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:29.160
<v Speaker 1>with whips that have blades attached to them. Just reading

0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:35.600
<v Speaker 1>Demetrius's work can get pretty intense. At the Poquette Vegetarian festival,

0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:39.680
<v Speaker 1>for example, celebrants pierced their cheeks, and some of these

0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:43.040
<v Speaker 1>piercings are so long and heavy, so that the big

0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:46.720
<v Speaker 1>skewers that might be three meters across that they will

0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:49.120
<v Speaker 1>have to bite down on them at all times and

0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:51.480
<v Speaker 1>hold them with both hands, because otherwise they might just

0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:54.800
<v Speaker 1>rip their face off. Man. Okay, So I think for

0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:57.600
<v Speaker 1>a lot of us, the question is why. I have

0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:01.640
<v Speaker 1>asked thousands of people why they perform the rituals, and

0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:05.200
<v Speaker 1>the most common responses some kind of sense of puzzlement.

0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:07.320
<v Speaker 1>They look at you and say, well, well, what do

0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:09.640
<v Speaker 1>you mean. We just we just do them. That's what

0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:13.440
<v Speaker 1>we do, that's who we are. At a firewalking festival

0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.800
<v Speaker 1>in Greece, Demitrius asked a bunch of first time participants

0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:20.320
<v Speaker 1>why they decided to remove their shoes and proceed barefoot

0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:23.920
<v Speaker 1>over a bed of hot coal. Some of them reference tradition,

0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:27.520
<v Speaker 1>Some people explained they just had an urge. Some said

0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:31.960
<v Speaker 1>they weren't really sure why. But when he asked people

0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:35.160
<v Speaker 1>much later about why they had gotten involved at first time,

0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:39.120
<v Speaker 1>they gave very specific motives. They'd been looking to be

0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.640
<v Speaker 1>healed from some malady or to become fertile. Well, once

0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.520
<v Speaker 1>you've done it, once you put a skewer through your cheeks,

0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:48.000
<v Speaker 1>then you have to ask yourself, why did I do that?

0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:51.720
<v Speaker 1>This uh effort triggers a search from meaning, and this

0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:55.680
<v Speaker 1>way we construct these post hoc justifications of our actions

0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:59.000
<v Speaker 1>and our experiences. When we do something that's very taxing,

0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:03.320
<v Speaker 1>that doesn't have need discernible benefit, we feel really uncomfortable

0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.359
<v Speaker 1>about it, and to feel better we engage in what's

0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:11.480
<v Speaker 1>called effort justification, where we retroactively deem the activity is

0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:15.000
<v Speaker 1>meaningful or important. Do you think that there's potentially like

0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:17.879
<v Speaker 1>a parallel to even the conversations that we have in

0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:20.240
<v Speaker 1>a daily basis. Right, if I talked to a friend

0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:23.440
<v Speaker 1>like ten years after her divorce, well, I remember when

0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:26.000
<v Speaker 1>she was getting that divorce, right, she turned herself inside out.

0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.440
<v Speaker 1>She would have done anything to make that marriage work.

0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:31.520
<v Speaker 1>But now ten years later she goes, oh my gosh,

0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:33.159
<v Speaker 1>that was like the best thing that ever happened to me.

0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:36.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm so glad Michael left. Absolutely, And this is something adaptive.

0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:39.200
<v Speaker 1>It helps us cope with over their life, it helps

0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:43.280
<v Speaker 1>us move on. Yes, we have a need to justify

0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:49.040
<v Speaker 1>our actions. Demitrius also suggests painful rituals confer real benefits.

0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.040
<v Speaker 1>During the Cavety Festival and Mauritius, he measured the stress

0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:57.399
<v Speaker 1>levels of participants who walked down nails, carried heavy loads

0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:00.359
<v Speaker 1>in the hot sun, and pierced their bodies so times

0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:03.720
<v Speaker 1>with hundreds of needles. As you might imagine, there's stress

0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:07.760
<v Speaker 1>levels spiked, but a month later they reported feeling better

0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:13.880
<v Speaker 1>healthier than before the cavity. Things get more interesting when

0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:16.000
<v Speaker 1>we look at who is performing the ritual and how

0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:19.280
<v Speaker 1>so we see that people of low soci economic status,

0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.760
<v Speaker 1>as well as those who suffer from chronic illness, are

0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:26.159
<v Speaker 1>actually more likely to perform the ritual, and when they do,

0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:28.280
<v Speaker 1>they will put more needles in their body and they

0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:35.040
<v Speaker 1>will suffer more. He explains that extreme rituals provides social benefits.

0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.879
<v Speaker 1>Getting involved demonstrates a commitment to the group and puts

0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:41.800
<v Speaker 1>you in better standing within the community. He thinks that's

0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:45.679
<v Speaker 1>why people of low status are likely to participate enthusiastically.

0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:49.040
<v Speaker 1>They could use the social boost. And don't be tempted

0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:52.720
<v Speaker 1>to imagine that extreme rituals only happen in faraway places.

0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:59.200
<v Speaker 1>Fraternity hazing, gang initiations, military traditions, lots of similar formulas.

0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.960
<v Speaker 1>In elementary school, I remember when kids used to pass

0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:05.800
<v Speaker 1>around packs of big red gum and we'd all take

0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:08.479
<v Speaker 1>a piece and then we would lick the foil wrapper,

0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:12.000
<v Speaker 1>would stick it to our foreheads, and within a minute,

0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:15.560
<v Speaker 1>the cinnamon flavoring would start to burn, and we sat

0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.480
<v Speaker 1>there looking at each other with like garbage on our

0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:20.760
<v Speaker 1>foreheads for as long as we could take the pain.

0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:25.600
<v Speaker 1>Why because it was the thing to do in third

0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:29.600
<v Speaker 1>grade and we were proving ourselves as baby badasses and

0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.680
<v Speaker 1>it made us giggle and feel connected. Everybody is suffering

0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:36.680
<v Speaker 1>the same thing at the same time. So one thing

0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:40.040
<v Speaker 1>you're doing there is you're advertising some individual qualities that

0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:42.760
<v Speaker 1>have to do with your fitness. You're you're cool enough

0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:45.040
<v Speaker 1>to with something, You're strong enough to withstand this. At

0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:49.119
<v Speaker 1>the same time, we're advertising your commitment to the group's norm, because,

0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:53.320
<v Speaker 1>for whatever reason, if that becomes the norm, then doing

0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:57.160
<v Speaker 1>something that requires you paying a high price to enforce

0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:59.960
<v Speaker 1>that norm on yourself that means you're good and come

0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:03.480
<v Speaker 1>a member of that community. Pain is often cast in

0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:06.640
<v Speaker 1>a simple role, the character who enters to pull her

0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:09.440
<v Speaker 1>hand away from the burning stove and then recedes into

0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:13.440
<v Speaker 1>the wings. But pain is larger and more complex, performing

0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:25.159
<v Speaker 1>sometimes as antagonist sometimes ally. I'm glad to report that

0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:27.760
<v Speaker 1>Sarah's life isn't as painful as it used to be.

0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:32.119
<v Speaker 1>They're still hurt, fatigue, and nausea. I've seen Sarah vomit

0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:34.480
<v Speaker 1>into an empty soda bottle and moving cars with the

0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:39.399
<v Speaker 1>sniper's aim. But it's better still, the pain has changed her.

0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:51.840
<v Speaker 1>What's the biggest single thing that pain has taken away? Uh,

0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:58.320
<v Speaker 1>it's a lot. A lot takes away your ability to

0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:02.240
<v Speaker 1>be present to the people that you're fighting the illness

0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:07.880
<v Speaker 1>to continue to be with. So it is a thief

0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:17.240
<v Speaker 1>in that way. Is there anything that's given you any upsides? Yes,

0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:21.960
<v Speaker 1>there's a lot. Actually, like a lot really? Oh yeah,

0:21:22.200 --> 0:21:24.240
<v Speaker 1>I remember after my first transplant. It was probably a

0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:27.280
<v Speaker 1>year later, standing in line in the pharmacy, and all

0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:29.120
<v Speaker 1>of a sudden, he said, tears streaming down my face

0:21:29.160 --> 0:21:32.280
<v Speaker 1>because I realized it had been four years since I

0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:35.880
<v Speaker 1>could stand in a line and not have to sit

0:21:36.000 --> 0:21:39.240
<v Speaker 1>or lay down on the floor while I waited. I found. So,

0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:41.280
<v Speaker 1>if you have chronic pain and it is a given

0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:44.480
<v Speaker 1>and it's not negotiable, how do you want to live

0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:46.520
<v Speaker 1>your life? And then how do you have to change

0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:49.679
<v Speaker 1>your mind to meet the person that could live this

0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:53.600
<v Speaker 1>life and enjoy it? So like, how do you rise

0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:59.160
<v Speaker 1>to the occasion of your own life and take joy

0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:10.080
<v Speaker 1>in it? Yeah? I want to extend an enormous thank

0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:13.280
<v Speaker 1>you to Sarah for being so candid and smart, to

0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:16.520
<v Speaker 1>Demetrius for his time and insights, and of course to

0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:20.399
<v Speaker 1>Irene Tracy, Queen of Pain, thanks for the hurts. You're welcome.

0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:34.159
<v Speaker 1>Any that's such a long laugh. All good science stories

0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:41.560
<v Speaker 1>should end with a cackle and a flesh wound. Next time,

0:22:41.600 --> 0:22:45.119
<v Speaker 1>on Deeply Human, we're talking about lying why it's a

0:22:45.119 --> 0:22:53.160
<v Speaker 1>milestone for toddlers but a slippery slope for you. Deeply

0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:56.040
<v Speaker 1>Human is hosted by Deessa and is a co production

0:22:56.119 --> 0:22:59.320
<v Speaker 1>of the BBC World Service and American Public Media with

0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:02.239
<v Speaker 1>I Heart and Me Yeah