WEBVTT - Sammy The Bull: From Omertà to Podcast 0:00:02.279 --> 0:00:05.560 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:11.000 Thing from My Heart Radio. Many people have an appetite 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:15.640 for films and television shows about organized crime, whether it 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:20.639 be The Godfather, The Sopranos, Goodfellas, or Scarface. The public's 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:26.120 fascination with the mafia never ends. My guest today, however, 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:31.000 is not a fictionalized character on screen. He's not Tony 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:35.640 Soprano or Don Corleone, but a real life mafioso who, 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:41.040 by his own admission, committed countless atrocities. Sammy the Boll 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:45.160 Gravano had a long and notorious career in La Cosa Nostra, 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:49.320 the Brooklyn based Sicilian crime family, where he served as 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:53.560 underboss to the infamous John Gotti. Yet the man who 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:59.080 once upheld the mafia code of silence or omerta, turned 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:03.200 state's evidence against his own, sending Gotti and many others 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:07.560 to prison. And now Gravano is talking and talking and 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:12.600 talking on several social media platforms. I recently found that 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:17.479 he has a podcast entitled Our Thing, detailing the exploits 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:22.200 of his career. In its five seasons, Our Thing tells 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:26.880 stories from Gravano's early days as a teenage gangster to 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.920 how he methodically plans a killing. The stories are both 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:36.240 disturbing and captivating. During my conversation with him, I had 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:40.399 to remind myself that Gravano is the real thing. But 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:44.679 first a conversation with the man who convinced Gravano to 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:51.160 record the podcast. Director, producer, cinematographer and editor James Carroll 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:55.520 has worked on hit reality shows like Undercover Boss and 0:01:55.640 --> 0:02:00.520 gritty documentaries about police corruption and a serial killer. He 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:03.760 once was embedded with drug lords in the Dominican Republic 0:02:04.000 --> 0:02:09.960 while filming a documentary. Despite Carol's credentials working with dangerous subjects, 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:14.360 sitting in a studio alongside a known assassin is still 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:17.639 a perilous challenge. I wanted to know how he first 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:22.560 came to work with Sammy the Boll Gravano. So I'm 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:26.919 wrapped at w M ME and one day I get 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:31.400 a call and there's this production company that has secured 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:35.200 Sammy the Bull and they were like, we want you 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:40.600 to meet Sammy at our boardroom in Beverly Hills at 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:45.280 w M And I said great. Now, just so you know, 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:48.000 I had no I mean, I knew who Sammy the 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:51.480 Bull was and my mom is Italian. My grandfather was 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:55.200 you know, Italian, but you know, I'm half Italian. I 0:02:55.320 --> 0:03:00.720 knew what Sammy was, but I never really knew who 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:03.280 he was. So I go into the meeting, and I 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:07.440 do this with everyone that I meet. I don't want 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:09.799 to know anything about you. I really don't read about you. 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:12.840 I don't want to research you. I don't want to 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.320 know really anything about you, because what I want to 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.519 do is when I meet you, I want to experience that, 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:23.000 just you and me. So I go in there and 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:27.480 there's you know, agents and the production companies in there, 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:30.400 and he's sitting right across from me, and I'm a 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.160 big guy. I'm like six too, and you know, I 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:36.120 shake his hand and we sit down and uh, he 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:38.600 looks at me and he's like and I can tell 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:40.560 he's you know, I've been around killers. At this point, 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:44.560 I did the intensity I'm gravitated to and I'm comfortable with. 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:47.960 And he says, tell me about yourself. So I start 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.160 telling him, you know, about myself. He does to you 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.000 what you normally do to other people, but go ahead exactly. 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:56.400 So I'm in the hot seat and I play along, 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:00.400 and I mentioned that my mom's Italian. And at the 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:04.320 end he's like, is your dad Italian? And I said no, 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:06.840 and he's like, well, then you're not fucking Italian, are you? 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:11.080 And I look at him and I said, I never 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.640 said I was fucking Italian? Did I? Sammy? And at 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:21.720 that moment, I think there was this connection where we 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:25.160 instantly bonded. At that sit down, he was testing you, 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:29.800 he was and and he knew that what I know 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:31.960 I know, and what I don't know I don't know. 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.280 And I'm totally comfortable with that, you know, And that 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:37.520 freaks people out sometimes, but like that, that's just me. 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:41.800 And we got up from that meeting. We walked around, 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:47.240 we walked around Beverly, you know, we just hit it off. 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:51.680 And that was eighteen It was a long time ago. 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:54.559 The concept of the meeting going in was he wanted 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:56.680 to do a podcast or he didn't know he wanted 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.400 to do a documentary. What did he want? So the 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:04.200 production company was trying to sell his story as a 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:07.880 documentary for television and they wanted me to be a 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.480 director on it. I you know, I was interested. They 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:13.719 wanted me, you know whatever. Now it gets to the 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:17.560 point where the production company sends me over to Arizona 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:20.720 alone to hang out with him. Right, I go over, 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:23.720 actually drive over because I was like, you know, I 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:25.560 don't really want to be there. I want to have 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:28.400 my own card. And I show up to his house. 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:32.360 I walked right in. I sit down in his family room, 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:35.400 and for the next three days I have got you know, 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:41.719 I've got a notebook behind me somewhere I'm just writing story. No, 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:44.719 I want to experience it. I want to feel it. 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:48.280 I want to put it up in my head and 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:51.359 write it out. So I'm like, you know, he tells 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:56.440 me a tremendous amount, which by the way, again did 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:58.920 not research, did not read, did not know a lot 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:02.359 about the moth uh, you know, just knew the headlines, whatever. 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:06.040 But I wanted to experience what it was like for him. 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.640 So I'm writing all this. I'm like starring all this, 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:11.960 and I'm like, this is unbelievable. Like I'm sitting next 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.920 to a guy who was at the table pretty much 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:19.400 every single table, and I love that. I love anyone 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:22.760 who was there. I gravitate to people like that. I 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:26.320 gravitate to characters like that. So I'm all in on 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:29.919 this guy, and he reminds me of my grandfather, and 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:36.880 we develop a friendship. Really, all of this happens throughout 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:39.520 a year. It's a documentary. No, it's not a documentary. 0:06:39.520 --> 0:06:41.839 We're not gonna buy it. Oh, it's a podcast. Okay, 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:44.320 well it's it's a podcast here. Okay, it's a podcast 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:47.200 over there, you know what is it? And then covid 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:53.400 hits and so finally it ends up with Sammy calling 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:57.560 me not connected to anyone at this point, solo because 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:01.280 they couldn't sell and nothing happened, and he's like, hey, 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:03.240 do you want to do a podcast with me? And 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:06.039 I said, sure, like I'd love that. You know, I 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:08.279 have no problem with that. Why do you think he 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:11.040 wanted to do that? Other than beyond money? There are 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:15.840 two things that are in play here. One, he's labeled something. 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:20.280 He has been labeled something since and you know, I've 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:22.960 met enough people and heard enough stories at this point 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:26.600 in my life and career that when I meet him, 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.080 I know the label, right. The label is a rat 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:33.880 or a rat, you know, And I start to kind 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:39.840 of dig and try to understand this individual who you 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.760 just asked the question that I asked at the very 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:45.320 beginning when I sat down with them. You know how 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:48.520 could you do this? And it took me a year 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:54.800 to realize and figure out why the relationship that he 0:07:54.960 --> 0:08:03.960 had with Cosa Nostra and which on turned in when 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:09.120 they were locked up, when they were extracted from their club, 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:14.840 the Raven Night and taken to jail and stuck in 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:19.280 this prison for one year, tape started to come out 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:25.960 and GODDI the relationship really really took a turn for 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:30.120 the worst, and you know, Sammy was hurt by that, 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:34.000 and all of a sudden the tapes come out. God, 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:36.480 he is on the tapes. There's a lot of stuff 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:40.240 that's happening behind the scenes with you know, their relationship 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:45.120 within prison. And then he says in the podcast, I 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:47.840 believe in episode one, and you know we're going into 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:50.840 season five now, so I believe it was repeated in 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:53.520 late in season four. But he said, if it if 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:56.800 it comes down to this, if this is what Cosa 0:08:56.880 --> 0:09:01.319 Nostra is, and he's all, he lived such a life 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:03.320 in it. If this is what it comes down to, 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:09.920 the backstabbing, the line, the cheating, the craziness of John Gotti, 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:12.080 well then Funcket, I don't want to be a part 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:14.720 of this life anymore. What was it that would appeal 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:19.160 to you about the audio only project. I started in radio, 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:22.640 so yeah, I think that that's not really out there. 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:26.520 But when I was thirteen, I was obsessed with with 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:29.240 radio for some reason. This was in the mid nineties, 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:34.080 so you know, before the cell phone, social the internet, 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:37.440 and I remember telling my parents. I was like, you know, 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:39.839 I really want to work at a radio station. And 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.000 they were like, there's absolutely no way you're gonna work 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:44.040 at a radio station, Like, you know, you're a kid. 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:48.480 That doesn't happen until later. And I really stalked this 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:52.079 one night show DJ, you know, I just called him 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:54.400 and called him and called him, you know, in a 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:58.240 in a way that was like weird but also endearing 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:01.400 because I was, you know, a kid. And I finally 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:03.360 got my way into the station, like I was like, 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:05.080 let me just sit in with you one day. So 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:09.000 I was sitting there watching him do the whole night 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:12.760 show thing, and I was like, this is my life, 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:14.800 like I love this, and and I really didn't want 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:16.400 to be on the radio. I wanted to do everything 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.480 behind the scenes. I was like interested in in programming music, 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.600 I was interested in how it all worked. And I 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:26.360 got a summer internship when I was fifteen. So a 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:29.600 couple of years later, and I remember the day that 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:31.800 my summer internship was over. I went to the g 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:34.240 MS office. I like literally just barged right in and 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:38.520 I said, I can't leave here, Like there's no way 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.960 that I can leave here. You have me dust something like, 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:45.320 I don't pay me. I have to like be here. 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:47.240 I have to be a part of this. Where were 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:50.360 you living then, I was. I grew up in St. Petersburg, Florida. 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:52.480 I was born and raised in St. Pete, Florida's so 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:55.600 this was, you know, the mid nineties. This was you know, 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:58.320 a hot a C station. So we were like playing 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:01.520 Phil Collins and Steve Winwood and all of that stuff. 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:05.120 And he was like great. And what ended up happening 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:08.760 was I I started to really go there Monday through 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:11.559 Friday and really work there. And I was homeschooled through 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:14.480 high school, so it kind of helped out with the 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:18.560 you know, the scheduling. And I was fascinated by what 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:21.800 happened when they turned off the microphone. So I picked 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:24.760 up a video camera, not knowing anything about I mean 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:27.360 just nothing, like I was like, let me just get 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:30.680 a video camera. Let me just start filming these personalities 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:35.440 because I was obsessed with characters and their stories. And 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:40.200 what happened when they turned off the mic was like crazy, Well, 0:11:40.240 --> 0:11:43.840 they were just different, you know, very much robotic on 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:46.840 you know, a script was in front of you, and 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:49.520 they were like this is the weather, and blah blah blah. 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:51.920 You know how they are. And when they turned off 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:57.160 the microphone, they became authentic. And I craved authenticity, like 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:01.800 I wanted that more than anything. So I pitched a 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:04.560 radio station down there an idea. I was like, listen, 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.760 I got a camera. I don't know anything, but let 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:10.160 me go in there and let me start filming you guys. 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:12.480 And what I did was I and this was now, 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:15.319 this was early two thousands, so this was before YouTube, 0:12:15.320 --> 0:12:17.960 This was before you know, a lot of the stuff. 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:21.640 And I would film hours and hours and hours of 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:25.840 these radio personalities off the air. I would go home 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.000 with them. I would I would go to events with 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:33.840 them and really never really regretting taking that kid's phone call. 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.240 We're taking a shower and you're like, what are you doing, Hey, 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:40.600 what are you doing in there? Let me get in there, 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:43.760 let me get that shot. So I started cutting it together. 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.880 We put together a monthly video that was like seven 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:51.560 to ten minutes long, and we uploaded it every month 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.280 on the website and it became like, you know, it 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:55.960 was written up in Billboard, it was in the New 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:58.800 York Times, and that's what landed me out in Los Angeles. 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.080 That's what kind of propelled me out here. And when 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:03.360 I landed out here, they were like, what do you 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:05.840 want to do this production company? And I was like, oh, 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:07.920 I'm a director, you know, and they were like what, 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.200 You're not a director And I'm like I'm not and 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:14.000 they're like, no, you're You've got to like start as 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:22.960 a p A. Yeah, you're Jimmy Olsen so Superman. So 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:27.440 they I did not go into production. Weirdly enough, I 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:29.120 was like, well, I don't want to be a p A. 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:31.440 Like what else do you have? And they were like, well, 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:35.120 you can digitize tapes at night. So I was like, okay, 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:39.040 that sounds good. So I worked overnights digitizing tapes for 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:42.400 three months and I literally was like, this is the 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:45.400 worst decision I've ever made, This is this is I 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:47.880 don't know what I'm doing. And I went to the 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:50.800 owner and walked right in again and I sat in 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:52.240 front of him and I was like, listen, I can't 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.040 do this. You gotta give me something creative or else 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:58.440 I gotta leave. And they were like, well you got 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:00.439 cut a sizzle and I was like, well, what's that? 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:03.600 You know? And I cut a sizzle That turned into 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.920 a pilot, which turned into two series of television on 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:09.600 On A and E. And that's kind of what got 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:13.600 my start as an editor first. So that was a 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:17.319 show called Obsessed, which is all about O c D. 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:22.360 And what we did was we followed the cognitive behavioral 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:27.640 therapy of an individual throughout the course of like sixteen weeks. 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:32.360 And again it was you know, authentic, and I really 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.600 enjoyed that. I I loved dealing with real people. I'm 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:38.080 so happy and fortunate that I got to do that 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:42.080 instead of some reality show, which was not what I 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:45.200 was interested in In the beginning of your career, is 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:48.200 out of part of it? You enlisting people to talk? 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:50.480 Is that a skill you developed? Oh? I think so, 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:52.520 I think there's a lot that you know, remember, there's 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:54.720 a lot going on behind the scenes when when I 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.120 do these projects, there's a lot happening as you know, 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:59.800 there's a lot of development happening. There's a lot of 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.840 relationship building. There's a lot of projects that are started 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:07.240 that are never completed because they're not financed. So I'm 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:13.000 being put into situations where the production companies will say, hey, 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.080 go take a camera and go out there and film 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:17.000 this guy. And I'm like, well, who is he? And 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:20.240 he's like, he's a convicted killer. And I drive out 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:22.560 by myself, and you know that. There was this one 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:24.560 time where I was in the middle of California and 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:28.520 it was a slaughterhouse. Literally, they were killing cows. And 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:34.360 there's this you know, massive dude, and he's sitting in 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:37.000 this shack and I go in and there's a guy 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:40.120 on the on the sofa and I'm sure these guys 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:42.440 are armed, right, but I've got a camera, you know, 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:49.720 and and they and everybody comes down. Well, they want 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:53.160 me there because for some reason, these guys they love 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:58.040 when I'm there. And I listened to them because it's 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:01.360 more than just me with the care, it's I actually 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.160 am interested and I and I care about your story 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:07.640 in a very human way. I'm not I'm not trying 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:10.360 to get in there and get all the crazy stuff. 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:13.280 I'm actually trying to figure you out tell me your story, 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:16.600 and I care and they see that, you know, they 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:19.280 realize that. And I go in there and no one's 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:21.960 there with me. I really roll a lot by myself. 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:24.080 So I set out the came I set up the mic, 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:26.880 and this dude sitting in you know, a plastic chair 0:16:26.920 --> 0:16:31.280 in the middle of this abandoned shot, and I start 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.440 asking him questions and I'm like, so, what's going on? Man, 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:36.480 I'm like, well, where are we? First of all? You know, 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:39.080 and this is by design. Halfway through the interview, you know, 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:43.200 they start actually killing and you hear the screams of 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.320 the cattle. Yeah, and you and and the intimidation sets 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.600 in and you're like, okay, this is with intention, and 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:53.240 this is an intimidation. In that moment, I'm like, okay, 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:56.040 I got a little baby at home, you know, I 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:59.040 have a wife, and I'm here all alone. And and 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:01.960 you just commit to it, and you and you try 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:04.480 not to show any fear because at the end of 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:07.359 the day, like I said, I'm here to listen to 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:16.360 your story. Our Thing creator and producer James Carroll. If 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:20.240 you love conversations with creative minds, be sure to check 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:24.679 out my episode with Radio and podcast producer Ira Glass. 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:28.600 I mean, this show reflects my taste, but also I 0:17:28.600 --> 0:17:30.800 have to say the taste of my coworkers, you know, 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:32.840 like it's not just mine at this point, like it's 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:35.080 something that we all share and I happen to be 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.239 the front man, and in that way, it's different than 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:39.720 than it was from the beginning, Like I am the 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.600 frontman for this thing that we make together, like somebody 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:45.359 who's in a band that's been playing for a long time. 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:51.040 Here more of my conversation with Ira Glass that Here's 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:55.639 the Thing dot Org. After the break, James Carroll shares 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.880 the way the Our Thing podcast is a form of 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:03.040 therapy for Gravano, and later in the program my talk 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:06.359 with Sammy Gravano about what it was like working with 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:20.400 the Gambino crime family boss John Gotti. I'm Alec Baldwin 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:24.400 and you're listening to Here's the Thing. James Carroll has 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:27.720 worked with Sammy the Bull Gravano for five seasons on 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:31.520 the Our Thing podcast. I wanted to know in all 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:35.320 of their time working together, if Gravano had expressed any 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:39.640 signs of remorse. I've asked that question and we've talked 0:18:39.680 --> 0:18:42.720 about that privately. What did he say. I don't think 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:47.560 he has remorse. It's very much like the question I 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.120 asked him when the first time. This was the first 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.320 time I asked him and the only time I asked him. 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:54.080 You know, he was telling me about a gunfight that 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.080 he was in, and I was like, were you scared? 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:57.919 And he looks at me and he's like, that's a 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:01.480 really dumb question. And to you and I you know 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:04.440 that that's a serious question. That's a you know, I'm 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:08.440 scared because of whatever? And he said, you got to 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:11.879 realize I've done this my entire life. That's scared. It 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:14.200 would be like you, you know, going into your car 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:17.359 and driving, are you scared when you drive? Right? So 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:20.280 to ask that question to him, you know, are you 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:23.640 remorseful or do you look back? I I think he 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:28.080 was extremely calculated. I think he made those decisions. I 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:32.720 don't believe he makes emotional decisions. Al I just was 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.400 wondering if, because there's something about him, do you think 0:19:36.520 --> 0:19:38.800 you function for people like this? And this is a 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:42.320 maybe a tired question as somewhat of a therapist. Are 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:46.199 these sessions therapy for him? Oh? I think so? You know, 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:49.280 he's he's emoded in front of me, you know, on camera. 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:56.000 And again for some reason, I've been gifted an ability 0:19:56.119 --> 0:20:03.520 to be around individuals and for them to be extremely comfortable. 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:08.360 So it's very much a perfect union when when that happens. 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:12.520 His love for Cosa Nostra is the real deal love 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:17.920 like this dude loved Cosa Nostra when it worked, when 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:20.800 it worked, all the way to the end. I think 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:22.520 there was a lot going on in like the late 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:26.359 eighties and John Gotti was very, very difficult as a boss, 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:30.160 and he really turned the mafia into something that they 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:32.760 were not used to. But the old and this is 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:36.240 what I love about these stories, the old days, the 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:39.920 old the original like early days of Sammy the Bull 0:20:40.040 --> 0:20:43.640 in the sixties and early seventies where he was around 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:46.959 the gangsters of the forties and fifties that were like 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:51.640 that was their heyday. Those are incredible stories and the relationships, 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:54.359 the very thing you were there for and that you 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:57.160 did when that was taken away, What was the point 0:20:57.160 --> 0:21:00.920 in that was the protection of the group. With us, 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.160 we take care of each other. We're safe. No one's 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:07.720 ever gonna hurt you. It's like NATO. Anybody that attacks 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:11.280 you attacks us. Anybody that your enemy is our enemy. 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:14.320 We have your back and in this life with us, 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:15.880 we're going to take care of you. Don't you worry. 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:17.480 No one's gonna funk with you. Where your family blah 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:20.919 blah blah blah. And the minute that went away, the 0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:23.520 minute you couldn't rely on that, what's the point? What's 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:26.800 the point? You know? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Is he still 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:29.520 in any danger? I don't think so. No. I mean listen, 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:36.560 I drive, you know, he drives me around. So you're 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:38.600 gonna love this story. So it's one of the first 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:42.720 times I'm over there. He drives, you know, a very 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:46.200 four door, small compact car. Okay, this isn't a Lincoln 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:50.119 Mercedes or so we hop in and he's like, you're hungry, 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:52.040 and I'm like, yeah, I'm hungry. He's like, we're gonna 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:55.080 go to p F Chains. So we drive and you know, 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:59.200 Arizona Phoenix area, there's you know, obviously a lot of road, 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:04.480 you know, the lanes, and real quickly I understand what's 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:06.760 going on. You know, this is a man who usually 0:22:07.000 --> 0:22:10.200 was driven around, has spent a tremendous amount of time 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:13.800 in isolation, and you know, he was about a year 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:16.040 and a half out at that point when I when 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:19.400 I first met him, and you know, we're a little 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:21.959 bit all over the place. We go to p F. Chang's. 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:26.119 We sit down. He starts telling me about you know, 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:29.000 hits and and everything, and I'm like looking over and 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:31.840 there's this, you know, poor woman who's trying to eat 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:36.720 her spicy chicken and she's hearing this crazy story and she, 0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:39.119 you know, she can't believe it, and I can't believe 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:41.040 that I'm sitting here with Sammy the Bull who has 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:44.520 the glasses on and whatever. So we get back in 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:46.000 the car and he rolls down the window and he 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:48.879 lights a cigarette and we drive away and we stop 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:51.639 at this stop sign and there's this bicyclist coming up. 0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:54.120 And I see the bicyclist and I'm like, oh god, 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:56.920 you know, here we go, right And this is early 0:22:56.960 --> 0:22:59.560 on in my relationship, so I don't really have the 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:01.360 back and forth that I would have with him now. 0:23:02.040 --> 0:23:05.879 So he starts to go, and then the bicyclist, oh, 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:08.399 you know, and he slams on his brakes and the 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:13.240 bicyclist turns around, and I mean, the guy had no 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:16.119 clue who he was dealing with, and it's like, you know, 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:20.199 fuck you man, you know whatever, whatever, and Sammy's like, 0:23:20.920 --> 0:23:23.359 fuck me, fuck it out, you know, and and really 0:23:23.440 --> 0:23:27.480 just starts to scream at him, and I'm like, holy shit, 0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:30.240 like fuck man, I'm gonna be involved, and I don't 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:32.840 know what's gonna happen out and meet him. Yeah, he's 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:34.959 gonna he's gonna run over him. I don't know what's happening. 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:39.640