Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. Many people have an appetite
Speaker 1: for films and television shows about organized crime, whether it
Speaker 1: be The Godfather, The Sopranos, Goodfellas, or Scarface. The public's
Speaker 1: fascination with the mafia never ends. My guest today, however,
Speaker 1: is not a fictionalized character on screen. He's not Tony
Speaker 1: Soprano or Don Corleone, but a real life mafioso who,
Speaker 1: by his own admission, committed countless atrocities. Sammy the Boll
Speaker 1: Gravano had a long and notorious career in La Cosa Nostra,
Speaker 1: the Brooklyn based Sicilian crime family, where he served as
Speaker 1: underboss to the infamous John Gotti. Yet the man who
Speaker 1: once upheld the mafia code of silence or omerta, turned
Speaker 1: state's evidence against his own, sending Gotti and many others
Speaker 1: to prison. And now Gravano is talking and talking and
Speaker 1: talking on several social media platforms. I recently found that
Speaker 1: he has a podcast entitled Our Thing, detailing the exploits
Speaker 1: of his career. In its five seasons, Our Thing tells
Speaker 1: stories from Gravano's early days as a teenage gangster to
Speaker 1: how he methodically plans a killing. The stories are both
Speaker 1: disturbing and captivating. During my conversation with him, I had
Speaker 1: to remind myself that Gravano is the real thing. But
Speaker 1: first a conversation with the man who convinced Gravano to
Speaker 1: record the podcast. Director, producer, cinematographer and editor James Carroll
Speaker 1: has worked on hit reality shows like Undercover Boss and
Speaker 1: gritty documentaries about police corruption and a serial killer. He
Speaker 1: once was embedded with drug lords in the Dominican Republic
Speaker 1: while filming a documentary. Despite Carol's credentials working with dangerous subjects,
Speaker 1: sitting in a studio alongside a known assassin is still
Speaker 1: a perilous challenge. I wanted to know how he first
Speaker 1: came to work with Sammy the Boll Gravano. So I'm
Speaker 1: wrapped at w M ME and one day I get
Speaker 1: a call and there's this production company that has secured
Speaker 1: Sammy the Bull and they were like, we want you
Speaker 1: to meet Sammy at our boardroom in Beverly Hills at
Speaker 1: w M And I said great. Now, just so you know,
Speaker 1: I had no I mean, I knew who Sammy the
Speaker 1: Bull was and my mom is Italian. My grandfather was
Speaker 1: you know, Italian, but you know, I'm half Italian. I
Speaker 1: knew what Sammy was, but I never really knew who
Speaker 1: he was. So I go into the meeting, and I
Speaker 1: do this with everyone that I meet. I don't want
Speaker 1: to know anything about you. I really don't read about you.
Speaker 1: I don't want to research you. I don't want to
Speaker 1: know really anything about you, because what I want to
Speaker 1: do is when I meet you, I want to experience that,
Speaker 1: just you and me. So I go in there and
Speaker 1: there's you know, agents and the production companies in there,
Speaker 1: and he's sitting right across from me, and I'm a
Speaker 1: big guy. I'm like six too, and you know, I
Speaker 1: shake his hand and we sit down and uh, he
Speaker 1: looks at me and he's like and I can tell
Speaker 1: he's you know, I've been around killers. At this point,
Speaker 1: I did the intensity I'm gravitated to and I'm comfortable with.
Speaker 1: And he says, tell me about yourself. So I start
Speaker 1: telling him, you know, about myself. He does to you
Speaker 1: what you normally do to other people, but go ahead exactly.
Speaker 1: So I'm in the hot seat and I play along,
Speaker 1: and I mentioned that my mom's Italian. And at the
Speaker 1: end he's like, is your dad Italian? And I said no,
Speaker 1: and he's like, well, then you're not fucking Italian, are you?
Speaker 1: And I look at him and I said, I never
Speaker 1: said I was fucking Italian? Did I? Sammy? And at
Speaker 1: that moment, I think there was this connection where we
Speaker 1: instantly bonded. At that sit down, he was testing you,
Speaker 1: he was and and he knew that what I know
Speaker 1: I know, and what I don't know I don't know.
Speaker 1: And I'm totally comfortable with that, you know, And that
Speaker 1: freaks people out sometimes, but like that, that's just me.
Speaker 1: And we got up from that meeting. We walked around,
Speaker 1: we walked around Beverly, you know, we just hit it off.
Speaker 1: And that was eighteen It was a long time ago.
Speaker 1: The concept of the meeting going in was he wanted
Speaker 1: to do a podcast or he didn't know he wanted
Speaker 1: to do a documentary. What did he want? So the
Speaker 1: production company was trying to sell his story as a
Speaker 1: documentary for television and they wanted me to be a
Speaker 1: director on it. I you know, I was interested. They
Speaker 1: wanted me, you know whatever. Now it gets to the
Speaker 1: point where the production company sends me over to Arizona
Speaker 1: alone to hang out with him. Right, I go over,
Speaker 1: actually drive over because I was like, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't really want to be there. I want to have
Speaker 1: my own card. And I show up to his house.
Speaker 1: I walked right in. I sit down in his family room,
Speaker 1: and for the next three days I have got you know,
Speaker 1: I've got a notebook behind me somewhere I'm just writing story. No,
Speaker 1: I want to experience it. I want to feel it.
Speaker 1: I want to put it up in my head and
Speaker 1: write it out. So I'm like, you know, he tells
Speaker 1: me a tremendous amount, which by the way, again did
Speaker 1: not research, did not read, did not know a lot
Speaker 1: about the moth uh, you know, just knew the headlines, whatever.
Speaker 1: But I wanted to experience what it was like for him.
Speaker 1: So I'm writing all this. I'm like starring all this,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, this is unbelievable. Like I'm sitting next
Speaker 1: to a guy who was at the table pretty much
Speaker 1: every single table, and I love that. I love anyone
Speaker 1: who was there. I gravitate to people like that. I
Speaker 1: gravitate to characters like that. So I'm all in on
Speaker 1: this guy, and he reminds me of my grandfather, and
Speaker 1: we develop a friendship. Really, all of this happens throughout
Speaker 1: a year. It's a documentary. No, it's not a documentary.
Speaker 1: We're not gonna buy it. Oh, it's a podcast. Okay,
Speaker 1: well it's it's a podcast here. Okay, it's a podcast
Speaker 1: over there, you know what is it? And then covid
Speaker 1: hits and so finally it ends up with Sammy calling
Speaker 1: me not connected to anyone at this point, solo because
Speaker 1: they couldn't sell and nothing happened, and he's like, hey,
Speaker 1: do you want to do a podcast with me? And
Speaker 1: I said, sure, like I'd love that. You know, I
Speaker 1: have no problem with that. Why do you think he
Speaker 1: wanted to do that? Other than beyond money? There are
Speaker 1: two things that are in play here. One, he's labeled something.
Speaker 1: He has been labeled something since and you know, I've
Speaker 1: met enough people and heard enough stories at this point
Speaker 1: in my life and career that when I meet him,
Speaker 1: I know the label, right. The label is a rat
Speaker 1: or a rat, you know, And I start to kind
Speaker 1: of dig and try to understand this individual who you
Speaker 1: just asked the question that I asked at the very
Speaker 1: beginning when I sat down with them. You know how
Speaker 1: could you do this? And it took me a year
Speaker 1: to realize and figure out why the relationship that he
Speaker 1: had with Cosa Nostra and which on turned in when
Speaker 1: they were locked up, when they were extracted from their club,
Speaker 1: the Raven Night and taken to jail and stuck in
Speaker 1: this prison for one year, tape started to come out
Speaker 1: and GODDI the relationship really really took a turn for
Speaker 1: the worst, and you know, Sammy was hurt by that,
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden the tapes come out. God,
Speaker 1: he is on the tapes. There's a lot of stuff
Speaker 1: that's happening behind the scenes with you know, their relationship
Speaker 1: within prison. And then he says in the podcast, I
Speaker 1: believe in episode one, and you know we're going into
Speaker 1: season five now, so I believe it was repeated in
Speaker 1: late in season four. But he said, if it if
Speaker 1: it comes down to this, if this is what Cosa
Speaker 1: Nostra is, and he's all, he lived such a life
Speaker 1: in it. If this is what it comes down to,
Speaker 1: the backstabbing, the line, the cheating, the craziness of John Gotti,
Speaker 1: well then Funcket, I don't want to be a part
Speaker 1: of this life anymore. What was it that would appeal
Speaker 1: to you about the audio only project. I started in radio,
Speaker 1: so yeah, I think that that's not really out there.
Speaker 1: But when I was thirteen, I was obsessed with with
Speaker 1: radio for some reason. This was in the mid nineties,
Speaker 1: so you know, before the cell phone, social the internet,
Speaker 1: and I remember telling my parents. I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: I really want to work at a radio station. And
Speaker 1: they were like, there's absolutely no way you're gonna work
Speaker 1: at a radio station, Like, you know, you're a kid.
Speaker 1: That doesn't happen until later. And I really stalked this
Speaker 1: one night show DJ, you know, I just called him
Speaker 1: and called him and called him, you know, in a
Speaker 1: in a way that was like weird but also endearing
Speaker 1: because I was, you know, a kid. And I finally
Speaker 1: got my way into the station, like I was like,
Speaker 1: let me just sit in with you one day. So
Speaker 1: I was sitting there watching him do the whole night
Speaker 1: show thing, and I was like, this is my life,
Speaker 1: like I love this, and and I really didn't want
Speaker 1: to be on the radio. I wanted to do everything
Speaker 1: behind the scenes. I was like interested in in programming music,
Speaker 1: I was interested in how it all worked. And I
Speaker 1: got a summer internship when I was fifteen. So a
Speaker 1: couple of years later, and I remember the day that
Speaker 1: my summer internship was over. I went to the g
Speaker 1: MS office. I like literally just barged right in and
Speaker 1: I said, I can't leave here, Like there's no way
Speaker 1: that I can leave here. You have me dust something like,
Speaker 1: I don't pay me. I have to like be here.
Speaker 1: I have to be a part of this. Where were
Speaker 1: you living then, I was. I grew up in St. Petersburg, Florida.
Speaker 1: I was born and raised in St. Pete, Florida's so
Speaker 1: this was, you know, the mid nineties. This was you know,
Speaker 1: a hot a C station. So we were like playing
Speaker 1: Phil Collins and Steve Winwood and all of that stuff.
Speaker 1: And he was like great. And what ended up happening
Speaker 1: was I I started to really go there Monday through
Speaker 1: Friday and really work there. And I was homeschooled through
Speaker 1: high school, so it kind of helped out with the
Speaker 1: you know, the scheduling. And I was fascinated by what
Speaker 1: happened when they turned off the microphone. So I picked
Speaker 1: up a video camera, not knowing anything about I mean
Speaker 1: just nothing, like I was like, let me just get
Speaker 1: a video camera. Let me just start filming these personalities
Speaker 1: because I was obsessed with characters and their stories. And
Speaker 1: what happened when they turned off the mic was like crazy, Well,
Speaker 1: they were just different, you know, very much robotic on
Speaker 1: you know, a script was in front of you, and
Speaker 1: they were like this is the weather, and blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: You know how they are. And when they turned off
Speaker 1: the microphone, they became authentic. And I craved authenticity, like
Speaker 1: I wanted that more than anything. So I pitched a
Speaker 1: radio station down there an idea. I was like, listen,
Speaker 1: I got a camera. I don't know anything, but let
Speaker 1: me go in there and let me start filming you guys.
Speaker 1: And what I did was I and this was now,
Speaker 1: this was early two thousands, so this was before YouTube,
Speaker 1: This was before you know, a lot of the stuff.
Speaker 1: And I would film hours and hours and hours of
Speaker 1: these radio personalities off the air. I would go home
Speaker 1: with them. I would I would go to events with
Speaker 1: them and really never really regretting taking that kid's phone call.
Speaker 1: We're taking a shower and you're like, what are you doing, Hey,
Speaker 1: what are you doing in there? Let me get in there,
Speaker 1: let me get that shot. So I started cutting it together.
Speaker 1: We put together a monthly video that was like seven
Speaker 1: to ten minutes long, and we uploaded it every month
Speaker 1: on the website and it became like, you know, it
Speaker 1: was written up in Billboard, it was in the New
Speaker 1: York Times, and that's what landed me out in Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: That's what kind of propelled me out here. And when
Speaker 1: I landed out here, they were like, what do you
Speaker 1: want to do this production company? And I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm a director, you know, and they were like what,
Speaker 1: You're not a director And I'm like I'm not and
Speaker 1: they're like, no, you're You've got to like start as
Speaker 1: a p A. Yeah, you're Jimmy Olsen so Superman. So
Speaker 1: they I did not go into production. Weirdly enough, I
Speaker 1: was like, well, I don't want to be a p A.
Speaker 1: Like what else do you have? And they were like, well,
Speaker 1: you can digitize tapes at night. So I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: that sounds good. So I worked overnights digitizing tapes for
Speaker 1: three months and I literally was like, this is the
Speaker 1: worst decision I've ever made, This is this is I
Speaker 1: don't know what I'm doing. And I went to the
Speaker 1: owner and walked right in again and I sat in
Speaker 1: front of him and I was like, listen, I can't
Speaker 1: do this. You gotta give me something creative or else
Speaker 1: I gotta leave. And they were like, well you got
Speaker 1: cut a sizzle and I was like, well, what's that?
Speaker 1: You know? And I cut a sizzle That turned into
Speaker 1: a pilot, which turned into two series of television on
Speaker 1: On A and E. And that's kind of what got
Speaker 1: my start as an editor first. So that was a
Speaker 1: show called Obsessed, which is all about O c D.
Speaker 1: And what we did was we followed the cognitive behavioral
Speaker 1: therapy of an individual throughout the course of like sixteen weeks.
Speaker 1: And again it was you know, authentic, and I really
Speaker 1: enjoyed that. I I loved dealing with real people. I'm
Speaker 1: so happy and fortunate that I got to do that
Speaker 1: instead of some reality show, which was not what I
Speaker 1: was interested in In the beginning of your career, is
Speaker 1: out of part of it? You enlisting people to talk?
Speaker 1: Is that a skill you developed? Oh? I think so,
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot that you know, remember, there's
Speaker 1: a lot going on behind the scenes when when I
Speaker 1: do these projects, there's a lot happening as you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of development happening. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: relationship building. There's a lot of projects that are started
Speaker 1: that are never completed because they're not financed. So I'm
Speaker 1: being put into situations where the production companies will say, hey,
Speaker 1: go take a camera and go out there and film
Speaker 1: this guy. And I'm like, well, who is he? And
Speaker 1: he's like, he's a convicted killer. And I drive out
Speaker 1: by myself, and you know that. There was this one
Speaker 1: time where I was in the middle of California and
Speaker 1: it was a slaughterhouse. Literally, they were killing cows. And
Speaker 1: there's this you know, massive dude, and he's sitting in
Speaker 1: this shack and I go in and there's a guy
Speaker 1: on the on the sofa and I'm sure these guys
Speaker 1: are armed, right, but I've got a camera, you know,
Speaker 1: and and they and everybody comes down. Well, they want
Speaker 1: me there because for some reason, these guys they love
Speaker 1: when I'm there. And I listened to them because it's
Speaker 1: more than just me with the care, it's I actually
Speaker 1: am interested and I and I care about your story
Speaker 1: in a very human way. I'm not I'm not trying
Speaker 1: to get in there and get all the crazy stuff.
Speaker 1: I'm actually trying to figure you out tell me your story,
Speaker 1: and I care and they see that, you know, they
Speaker 1: realize that. And I go in there and no one's
Speaker 1: there with me. I really roll a lot by myself.
Speaker 1: So I set out the came I set up the mic,
Speaker 1: and this dude sitting in you know, a plastic chair
Speaker 1: in the middle of this abandoned shot, and I start
Speaker 1: asking him questions and I'm like, so, what's going on? Man,
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, where are we? First of all? You know,
Speaker 1: and this is by design. Halfway through the interview, you know,
Speaker 1: they start actually killing and you hear the screams of
Speaker 1: the cattle. Yeah, and you and and the intimidation sets
Speaker 1: in and you're like, okay, this is with intention, and
Speaker 1: this is an intimidation. In that moment, I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: I got a little baby at home, you know, I
Speaker 1: have a wife, and I'm here all alone. And and
Speaker 1: you just commit to it, and you and you try
Speaker 1: not to show any fear because at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, like I said, I'm here to listen to
Speaker 1: your story. Our Thing creator and producer James Carroll. If
Speaker 1: you love conversations with creative minds, be sure to check
Speaker 1: out my episode with Radio and podcast producer Ira Glass.
Speaker 1: I mean, this show reflects my taste, but also I
Speaker 1: have to say the taste of my coworkers, you know,
Speaker 1: like it's not just mine at this point, like it's
Speaker 1: something that we all share and I happen to be
Speaker 1: the front man, and in that way, it's different than
Speaker 1: than it was from the beginning, Like I am the
Speaker 1: frontman for this thing that we make together, like somebody
Speaker 1: who's in a band that's been playing for a long time.
Speaker 1: Here more of my conversation with Ira Glass that Here's
Speaker 1: the Thing dot Org. After the break, James Carroll shares
Speaker 1: the way the Our Thing podcast is a form of
Speaker 1: therapy for Gravano, and later in the program my talk
Speaker 1: with Sammy Gravano about what it was like working with
Speaker 1: the Gambino crime family boss John Gotti. I'm Alec Baldwin
Speaker 1: and you're listening to Here's the Thing. James Carroll has
Speaker 1: worked with Sammy the Bull Gravano for five seasons on
Speaker 1: the Our Thing podcast. I wanted to know in all
Speaker 1: of their time working together, if Gravano had expressed any
Speaker 1: signs of remorse. I've asked that question and we've talked
Speaker 1: about that privately. What did he say. I don't think
Speaker 1: he has remorse. It's very much like the question I
Speaker 1: asked him when the first time. This was the first
Speaker 1: time I asked him and the only time I asked him.
Speaker 1: You know, he was telling me about a gunfight that
Speaker 1: he was in, and I was like, were you scared?
Speaker 1: And he looks at me and he's like, that's a
Speaker 1: really dumb question. And to you and I you know
Speaker 1: that that's a serious question. That's a you know, I'm
Speaker 1: scared because of whatever? And he said, you got to
Speaker 1: realize I've done this my entire life. That's scared. It
Speaker 1: would be like you, you know, going into your car
Speaker 1: and driving, are you scared when you drive? Right? So
Speaker 1: to ask that question to him, you know, are you
Speaker 1: remorseful or do you look back? I I think he
Speaker 1: was extremely calculated. I think he made those decisions. I
Speaker 1: don't believe he makes emotional decisions. Al I just was
Speaker 1: wondering if, because there's something about him, do you think
Speaker 1: you function for people like this? And this is a
Speaker 1: maybe a tired question as somewhat of a therapist. Are
Speaker 1: these sessions therapy for him? Oh? I think so? You know,
Speaker 1: he's he's emoded in front of me, you know, on camera.
Speaker 1: And again for some reason, I've been gifted an ability
Speaker 1: to be around individuals and for them to be extremely comfortable.
Speaker 1: So it's very much a perfect union when when that happens.
Speaker 1: His love for Cosa Nostra is the real deal love
Speaker 1: like this dude loved Cosa Nostra when it worked, when
Speaker 1: it worked, all the way to the end. I think
Speaker 1: there was a lot going on in like the late
Speaker 1: eighties and John Gotti was very, very difficult as a boss,
Speaker 1: and he really turned the mafia into something that they
Speaker 1: were not used to. But the old and this is
Speaker 1: what I love about these stories, the old days, the
Speaker 1: old the original like early days of Sammy the Bull
Speaker 1: in the sixties and early seventies where he was around
Speaker 1: the gangsters of the forties and fifties that were like
Speaker 1: that was their heyday. Those are incredible stories and the relationships,
Speaker 1: the very thing you were there for and that you
Speaker 1: did when that was taken away, What was the point
Speaker 1: in that was the protection of the group. With us,
Speaker 1: we take care of each other. We're safe. No one's
Speaker 1: ever gonna hurt you. It's like NATO. Anybody that attacks
Speaker 1: you attacks us. Anybody that your enemy is our enemy.
Speaker 1: We have your back and in this life with us,
Speaker 1: we're going to take care of you. Don't you worry.
Speaker 1: No one's gonna funk with you. Where your family blah
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. And the minute that went away, the
Speaker 1: minute you couldn't rely on that, what's the point? What's
Speaker 1: the point? You know? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Is he still
Speaker 1: in any danger? I don't think so. No. I mean listen,
Speaker 1: I drive, you know, he drives me around. So you're
Speaker 1: gonna love this story. So it's one of the first
Speaker 1: times I'm over there. He drives, you know, a very
Speaker 1: four door, small compact car. Okay, this isn't a Lincoln
Speaker 1: Mercedes or so we hop in and he's like, you're hungry,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, yeah, I'm hungry. He's like, we're gonna
Speaker 1: go to p F Chains. So we drive and you know,
Speaker 1: Arizona Phoenix area, there's you know, obviously a lot of road,
Speaker 1: you know, the lanes, and real quickly I understand what's
Speaker 1: going on. You know, this is a man who usually
Speaker 1: was driven around, has spent a tremendous amount of time
Speaker 1: in isolation, and you know, he was about a year
Speaker 1: and a half out at that point when I when
Speaker 1: I first met him, and you know, we're a little
Speaker 1: bit all over the place. We go to p F. Chang's.
Speaker 1: We sit down. He starts telling me about you know,
Speaker 1: hits and and everything, and I'm like looking over and
Speaker 1: there's this, you know, poor woman who's trying to eat
Speaker 1: her spicy chicken and she's hearing this crazy story and she,
Speaker 1: you know, she can't believe it, and I can't believe
Speaker 1: that I'm sitting here with Sammy the Bull who has
Speaker 1: the glasses on and whatever. So we get back in
Speaker 1: the car and he rolls down the window and he
Speaker 1: lights a cigarette and we drive away and we stop
Speaker 1: at this stop sign and there's this bicyclist coming up.
Speaker 1: And I see the bicyclist and I'm like, oh god,
Speaker 1: you know, here we go, right And this is early
Speaker 1: on in my relationship, so I don't really have the
Speaker 1: back and forth that I would have with him now.
Speaker 1: So he starts to go, and then the bicyclist, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, and he slams on his brakes and the
Speaker 1: bicyclist turns around, and I mean, the guy had no
Speaker 1: clue who he was dealing with, and it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: fuck you man, you know whatever, whatever, and Sammy's like,
Speaker 1: fuck me, fuck it out, you know, and and really
Speaker 1: just starts to scream at him, and I'm like, holy shit,
Speaker 1: like fuck man, I'm gonna be involved, and I don't
Speaker 1: know what's gonna happen out and meet him. Yeah, he's
Speaker 1: gonna he's gonna run over him. I don't know what's happening.
Speaker 1: So the guy drives away and he won't let it go, right.
Speaker 1: He's talking about it that night, he's talking about it
Speaker 1: the next day, and to this day, we still talk
Speaker 1: about the guy in the bicyclist. My last question for
Speaker 1: you is there's more square mileage here for you to
Speaker 1: explore with him you're doing in another season or you
Speaker 1: kind of is it winding down in terms of what
Speaker 1: he has to offer with me? I think it's it's
Speaker 1: winding down. I'm still a part of it. I still
Speaker 1: help him. Really, no one else touched the project except
Speaker 1: Sammy and myself. It's very rare that this happens. And
Speaker 1: you know this, It's like usually there's producers weighing in
Speaker 1: and whoever is the money person and like, but it
Speaker 1: was just really just Sammy and I would send the
Speaker 1: cuts to Sammy, and Sammy is extremely smart when it
Speaker 1: comes to like storytelling, when it comes to what's good
Speaker 1: and what's not. He has taste, which I believe that
Speaker 1: you can't be taught, you have to be born with.
Speaker 1: So I believe that now there's new things that he's
Speaker 1: going to be doing, and I think it's exciting for him,
Speaker 1: and I'm I'm excited for him, but I think for
Speaker 1: for me, I ran, you know, the mileage, I got
Speaker 1: the information. I'm very happy with how the podcast turned out.
Speaker 1: What have you learned? What you learn from him? You know,
Speaker 1: I love to romanticize about things. I love that. You know.
Speaker 1: I sit there and I think about things and I think, oh,
Speaker 1: this is the type of person he is, or this
Speaker 1: is that this is what I want to do with him,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the knights of the round Table exactly.
Speaker 1: You know. I I just I just romanticize about it,
Speaker 1: and I think because I'm putting it through my filter,
Speaker 1: which is like I'm a certain way, and I'm I'm
Speaker 1: very you know, I love emotion and I love depth
Speaker 1: and I love authenticity. And when I first started the project,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I'm gonna get in there and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get what's there, but I found out that
Speaker 1: there's nothing there, and that's okay. That's the type of
Speaker 1: person he is, and people are that way. There are
Speaker 1: people out there that are that way. He's that type
Speaker 1: of creature he is, And you know, at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, I have spent what four or five
Speaker 1: years with him. Now we we we talk on the phone.
Speaker 1: You know, he calls me up, We have personal conversations.
Speaker 1: I know his family, he knows my family, so you know,
Speaker 1: there's that. But at the end of the day, he
Speaker 1: is that person and that's it. Period. Man, this podcast,
Speaker 1: we couldn't stop listening. We couldn't believe it. So thank
Speaker 1: you so much for taking the time to do this.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Alex, Thank you very much. Our Thing creator
Speaker 1: James Carroll. Sammy Gravano was convicted for his participation in
Speaker 1: nineteen murders, including his role in the hit on the
Speaker 1: then head of the Gambino crime family, Paul Castellano. Gravano
Speaker 1: worked as underboss to John Gotti before serving time alongside
Speaker 1: Gotti in prison until he cut a plea deal. He
Speaker 1: testified as a government witness against Gotti and thirty other mobsters.
Speaker 1: Gravano was released early and entered the witness protection program,
Speaker 1: which he left after less than a year. It seems
Speaker 1: the pull of a life of crime was inescapable, as
Speaker 1: Gravano returned to prison in two thousand for running an
Speaker 1: ecstasy drug ring. He was released in two thousand seventeen
Speaker 1: and started telling his story on the Hour Thing podcast
Speaker 1: just a few years later. Gravano grew up in benson Hurst, Brooklyn,
Speaker 1: born to Sicilian immigrants. Since he was still a teenager
Speaker 1: when he entered the life, I was curious to learn
Speaker 1: about his relationship with his parents and what they knew
Speaker 1: about his activities. I was in my thirties. I was
Speaker 1: already made guy. They never knew that. But they were
Speaker 1: hard working people. They worked ten twelve hours a day.
Speaker 1: My mother was a seamstress. My father was a painter,
Speaker 1: and then they opened up a small little dress factory
Speaker 1: and he went and worked with huh And they worked
Speaker 1: hard their whole life. They didn't have a lot of money,
Speaker 1: but whatever they had, it was always shared with the
Speaker 1: family at dinner or this and that of the other. Thing.
Speaker 1: They bought a small little house in Lake Ronkonkoma in
Speaker 1: Long Island, and uh, it was always old, the uncles
Speaker 1: and cousins and everybody there back when that was the
Speaker 1: Boon Ducks. But that was definitely a boon right out there. Then. Yeah,
Speaker 1: now it's probably all crowded, but yeah, yeah, So they
Speaker 1: were like that. They were great, legitimate people. I mean,
Speaker 1: but I was always in trouble. I was always the
Speaker 1: black sheep. But by the time I went into the military,
Speaker 1: I was nineteen. I got drafted during the Vietnam War.
Speaker 1: They had retired and moved to Long Island. Then they
Speaker 1: moved back into Staton Island. They passed away and uh,
Speaker 1: living against that island. But I wish I could have
Speaker 1: spent a lot of more time with my father going
Speaker 1: just simple things, going to a baseball game or something
Speaker 1: like that. Will go fishing. He was originally in Italy,
Speaker 1: was a fisherman, so going fishing with him was you know,
Speaker 1: like a big day. And I really didn't give them
Speaker 1: any money. I didn't have anything while they were you know,
Speaker 1: working until they got very old. Then I took care
Speaker 1: of them as best as I could, but they didn't
Speaker 1: need it. They had their retirement money, very small appetite
Speaker 1: to do anything. They were up in age. They were sickly,
Speaker 1: but I was always there to take care of them,
Speaker 1: connections with doctors, whatever I could possibly do. They never
Speaker 1: asked me where I got money or did anything, because
Speaker 1: I really when they were alive, I didn't have big money.
Speaker 1: Big money started flowing, you know, throwing their real old
Speaker 1: age sick and passed away. I was in three mafia wars,
Speaker 1: and I planned and plotted in two of them. I
Speaker 1: started off in the Colombo family. There was two parts
Speaker 1: to it, the Profaci and the Gallows. Everybody went to
Speaker 1: prison and stopped when crazy Joe Gallo came out. The
Speaker 1: second part started. I was already with the Colombo people.
Speaker 1: I did already work, meaning Amarda. I was eventually transferred
Speaker 1: over to the Gambino family, and in the Gambino family,
Speaker 1: when Angelo Bruno was killed in Philadelphia, there was a
Speaker 1: war broke out. I listened to the story on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Yeah the guy you took out to the golf club,
Speaker 1: yess Johnny Keys, So they couldn't five families and the
Speaker 1: Philadelphia family couldn't kill him, and I wound up getting
Speaker 1: the hit and I wound up killing them. It was
Speaker 1: a commission hit. It's it's at the highest level. And
Speaker 1: then I controlled the whole Castiliano hit. I did the
Speaker 1: planning and the plotting, and I was on the hit.
Speaker 1: John got he was in the car next to me.
Speaker 1: He was my driver. I had the Walkee talky and
Speaker 1: I controlled eleven people who are on the hit. Now,
Speaker 1: Johnny Keys in the podcast, you tell that story. He
Speaker 1: was old school and he was. He was like teaching
Speaker 1: you in the car to do the hit not get caught.
Speaker 1: You felt this admiration for him, and you thought he
Speaker 1: was this great old school guy. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: he did the hit without the approval of the commission. Correct,
Speaker 1: you were ordered to kill him because he broke the rules. Correct, Well,
Speaker 1: he didn't actually do to hit, I mean on Angelo Bruno.
Speaker 1: That that was all bullshit. He was actually Angelo Bruno's cousin.
Speaker 1: He was fighting the other side. I mean we really
Speaker 1: it was their problem, their thing. And you know, like
Speaker 1: you said, he was, you know, telling me how to
Speaker 1: do the hit on himself. And I came to learn
Speaker 1: now that I'm writing, is that we were like to Samurai's.
Speaker 1: We were both hit guys. He was a lot better, older, smarter,
Speaker 1: wiser than me, and we met on the battlefield. And
Speaker 1: what happened is when he was in that vent, he
Speaker 1: knew he lost. He knew I did something that the
Speaker 1: whole six families couldn't do. And he had a respect
Speaker 1: for me, and uh, he actually was educating me and
Speaker 1: teaching me Goes in Austria, knowing he was gonna die.
Speaker 1: But if you know about samurais when they lose, they
Speaker 1: want to die, but they want to die in an
Speaker 1: honorable way. Whether they push shoes off, yes, Well with
Speaker 1: him it was his shoes off. He was sending a
Speaker 1: message to his wife. Who would do that at seventy
Speaker 1: years old. I mean, he blew me away with things
Speaker 1: he wanted. But I understood it later on when it
Speaker 1: was explained I became Goes in Austria mostly because of
Speaker 1: him in a way that I wasn't before. Sort of
Speaker 1: door to my life closed on that head. You went
Speaker 1: to prison twice or three times. I went lengthy times.
Speaker 1: I went a bunch of times, but I went in
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety I got a five year bit the thing
Speaker 1: with John Gotti and I cooperated. The second time I
Speaker 1: went to prison, I got a twenty year bit. I
Speaker 1: did almost eighteen years straight so you do eighteen years
Speaker 1: straight and you'd already testified. Yeah, you've already left Witness
Speaker 1: protect and correct. Yeah. I was only in the Witness
Speaker 1: Protection fate months. Why did you want to get out
Speaker 1: of Witness Protection? Well, I wanted no part of it.
Speaker 1: I had money when I got out of prison. I
Speaker 1: wanted no part of the Witness Protection program. You had
Speaker 1: to change your name and do things and live by
Speaker 1: certain rules. I did my time. I didn't need their help,
Speaker 1: I didn't need their money, but they wanted me bed.
Speaker 1: They said, Sammy, you got nineteen murders. You got said,
Speaker 1: it's to five years. The government did the right thing
Speaker 1: with you. You're gonna make them look like horseshit if
Speaker 1: you don't come in, give them some more time, volunteer
Speaker 1: for this program. They could pound their chest a little bit.
Speaker 1: I felt that they did treat me right. And I
Speaker 1: did a five year sentence. It should have did a
Speaker 1: hell of a lot more than that. So I agreed
Speaker 1: to do one year and one year only, and that's
Speaker 1: what I did, and I stayed in the program. Some
Speaker 1: woman recognized me. They wanted me to start over. I
Speaker 1: wouldn't do it. So in eight months, I said I
Speaker 1: promised you one year. I'm not starting over, and they
Speaker 1: said you have to. I said, what, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to and they said, well, then you'd have to sign out.
Speaker 1: And I said that I'm gonna sign out. I promise
Speaker 1: you I'm in eight months. I promise you a year.
Speaker 1: Four more months I'll give you, and if you don't
Speaker 1: accept that, then I quit. I'm out, And I quit.
Speaker 1: I was out, and I went to Arizona where my
Speaker 1: family was. And you weren't afraid. No, you're out of
Speaker 1: witness protection. Your view to somebody that turned on John.
Speaker 1: So when you go to prison for the ecstasy charges,
Speaker 1: is that probably one of the most nerve wracking times
Speaker 1: of your life because I would imagine were you afraid
Speaker 1: they were gonna get you when you were in prison?
Speaker 1: I thought they would. I mean, I'm coming in with
Speaker 1: a lot of baggage. I had a twenty year sentence.
Speaker 1: That's where all these tattoos came from. What I did
Speaker 1: is I tattooed up and I said, as soon as
Speaker 1: somebody fox with me, I'm gonna kill him in prison.
Speaker 1: I thought I'd never get out of prison and I
Speaker 1: would probably dye in prison. So I said, I got
Speaker 1: nothing to lose, and that's what I'm gonna do. I
Speaker 1: tattooed up. I put that in my prison hat on
Speaker 1: and I said, the first person who foxed with me,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kill. And that's gonna push people away thinking
Speaker 1: about coming over to me or fucking with me. But
Speaker 1: it really never happened. You're doing this work, and the
Speaker 1: whole time you're doing this work, there's a whole layer
Speaker 1: of society that's out to get you. Was there a
Speaker 1: part of you that you understood that you didn't begrudge
Speaker 1: them that they had a job to do. Did you
Speaker 1: kind of recognize that and say, hey, these guys, you know,
Speaker 1: we're breaking the law and they gotta do what they
Speaker 1: gotta do. Or did you think all of them were
Speaker 1: the enemy? No? No, Yeah, listen, I I dealt with
Speaker 1: a lot of agents on a constant basis. I got
Speaker 1: to know their names and who they were. I saw
Speaker 1: them every day watching and they were legit in other ways.
Speaker 1: They had a job and I didn't we you know,
Speaker 1: to catch us. We had a job is to get away.
Speaker 1: And uh, as long as they told the truth, I
Speaker 1: don't begrudged them. It's people who lied about people made
Speaker 1: up lines and did all kinds of bullshit that I
Speaker 1: hated them, But after I cooperated, I got to know them.
Speaker 1: I actually lived with them for years. I was in
Speaker 1: Quantico Military Base for months and months and months. I
Speaker 1: lived with them every day in a week, and I
Speaker 1: got to know a lot of them. I got to trust,
Speaker 1: like Frankie, potentially, Yes, now beyond the ones that were
Speaker 1: handling you, if you will, when you're testified and so forth,
Speaker 1: during your career, when you're out and you're younger, when
Speaker 1: you're a made guy and there's a lot of money
Speaker 1: on the line, I would assume you wanted the cops
Speaker 1: to cooperate with you, or there were times when it
Speaker 1: would be helpful with the cops cooperated with you, and
Speaker 1: you didn't want to get that wrong, meaning you didn't
Speaker 1: want to go after a guy and make a play
Speaker 1: on a cop or somebody, and you didn't know if
Speaker 1: he was going to cooperate with you, meaning was there
Speaker 1: a towel, Was there a towel? You would see they
Speaker 1: would tell you that the cop was ready to come over,
Speaker 1: and he was dirty, and he would keep in cooperate
Speaker 1: with you. Yeah, I mean, it became obvious you kind
Speaker 1: of distinguished the difference. Like this guy Frank and Maddie.
Speaker 1: They used to call him the twins. You saw one,
Speaker 1: you saw the other. I saw them all the time.
Speaker 1: One time, Christmas time, I came to my office and
Speaker 1: my secretary was. There was snow and it was cold,
Speaker 1: and she said that Frank and Maddie are out there watching.
Speaker 1: She even knew their name. We knew their names and everything.
Speaker 1: So I said, how long were the out there? She
Speaker 1: said quite a while. So I got a box, cardboard box.
Speaker 1: I got some coffee, I got cookies, all kinds of
Speaker 1: Cannoli's everything, and I put a box full of stuff.
Speaker 1: I went out. I walked to the car in the snow,
Speaker 1: knocked on the window, as said, bro, you guys don't
Speaker 1: ever go home. I said, I mean, this is our job.
Speaker 1: I said, here's a box of cookies and coffee and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. So they said, no, we can't take that.
Speaker 1: I said, listen, it's not a bribe. It's cookies. Brolet's say.
Speaker 1: I know you're not gonna do nothing, so take the
Speaker 1: fucking cookies. They took the cookies, and uh, when I flipped,
Speaker 1: those are the guys. I actually flipped with now John Gotti.
Speaker 1: Did you think he was a good boss? Ever, No,
Speaker 1: he wasn't a good boss. He's not an actor. We're
Speaker 1: not actors with gangsters. It's a secret society and a brotherhood.
Speaker 1: Let me give you a little Carlo Gambino, when he
Speaker 1: came in the room in a restaurant, all you did
Speaker 1: was look all right, I and give a slight nod
Speaker 1: of the head. And that's your saying hello. You don't
Speaker 1: go give him a bottle of champagne. You don't wave hey, Carlo,
Speaker 1: we don't do that. So what he did as he
Speaker 1: exposed all of goes in Austria. When I cooperated, I
Speaker 1: was living with the government. The government loved him. What
Speaker 1: he did was gave up the home mouth here on
Speaker 1: a silver platter on his ego. He was a narcissist
Speaker 1: who put on this show. He bought into the whole
Speaker 1: dapper Don thing without a doubt. If he knew what
Speaker 1: reporter was gonna say, call him to Dappadon, the reporter
Speaker 1: could have called him up and say listen, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: do an article. I'm gonna call you the Dappadon. He
Speaker 1: would have got a hundred thousand who did you think
Speaker 1: was good? Who's someone else in organized crime that he
Speaker 1: really admired, Frankie the Chico. He was like a big
Speaker 1: brother to me. And uh. When John and his crew
Speaker 1: were in trouble for Dylan drugs, they were gonna get
Speaker 1: taken out. They came to me and Frankie, to Chico
Speaker 1: and a guy named Joe Piney a few people for
Speaker 1: help to be in this war without us. He he
Speaker 1: doesn't he doesn't live. When I talked to Frankie Chico
Speaker 1: about it, I didn't want to be in that wall,
Speaker 1: and I told Frankie, well, if we're gonna be in it,
Speaker 1: I want you to be the boss. He said, I
Speaker 1: could be his under boss. He can't be mine. He's
Speaker 1: got an ego like the Empire staple and we'll have
Speaker 1: nothing but trouble. Let him will take over, Let him
Speaker 1: be the boss, will be the power behind the throne.
Speaker 1: If he doesn't act right, I give him my word,
Speaker 1: will kill him. I'll be the boss. You'll be my
Speaker 1: under boss. I said, yes. Now, I'm gonna give you
Speaker 1: an example of Frankie Chico what I think of him.
Speaker 1: John had a powerful crew, no question. I had a
Speaker 1: powerful crew, no question. If you put out two crews together,
Speaker 1: we were in a pimpo on Frankie Chico's ass. That
Speaker 1: was the real power. His whole family, women in the family.
Speaker 1: I think, if you killed somebody in front of Bell,
Speaker 1: help you move the body. So this this was the
Speaker 1: real deal. As father, his uncle's were made, everybody's whole
Speaker 1: family and people loved him. So this was the real power.
Speaker 1: He's the guy who got blown up four months after
Speaker 1: the hit. Did you ever get the impression that John's son,
Speaker 1: that John Jr. Was gonna try to do something to you?
Speaker 1: So he was out there trying to find you. While
Speaker 1: John was alive, I knew he would send a team
Speaker 1: down again. I'm a professional hit guy of mega proportions,
Speaker 1: and I waited for that team. I was armed every
Speaker 1: single day. I lived in an area in a spot
Speaker 1: that I always had the advantage. I always knew exactly
Speaker 1: what I was doing, where I was gonna sit, and
Speaker 1: I was always armed. When I got pinched for the
Speaker 1: ecstasy in my house, I had four guns hidden, all
Speaker 1: of them loaded, one shotgun and three pistols and at
Speaker 1: three fifty seven magnum by my side. While I slept,
Speaker 1: I waited for them to come. I knew John would
Speaker 1: send them. They did. They found me. They sat on
Speaker 1: me for months and months and months, and they always
Speaker 1: felt like they would never be in the proper position.
Speaker 1: And one guy, Huck, who was in my crew made
Speaker 1: guy said I'll guarantee you Sammy's gonna have a gun.
Speaker 1: I guarantee you he won't run, and I'll guarantee you
Speaker 1: he's gonna try and kill us. And he was a
Speaker 1: thousand percent right. But before they had a chance to
Speaker 1: make the move, they sat on me for months, and
Speaker 1: we're afraid to make the move. I got pinched for
Speaker 1: ecstasy and I went to prison and that was over.
Speaker 1: So I didn't underestimate that John would send somebody. He
Speaker 1: talked to his brother Pete, who became the boss, a
Speaker 1: complete fucking moron, and he gave Huck and a few
Speaker 1: guys that hit and he botched the whole thing. He
Speaker 1: didn't send the right guys, Sammy the Bull Gravano. If
Speaker 1: you're enjoying this conversation, don't keep it to yourself, Tell
Speaker 1: a friend and follow here's the thing on the I
Speaker 1: Heart radio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: When we come back, Sammy the bull shares why he
Speaker 1: was the hitman the bosses relied on. I'm Alec Baldwin,
Speaker 1: and this is here's the thing. Much of the Mafia
Speaker 1: on screen involves clandestine meetings over linguini and red wine.
Speaker 1: I wanted to know if, just like Tony Soprano, Sammy
Speaker 1: frequented an Italian restaurant that felt like home. Well in Manhattan,
Speaker 1: Mulberry Street. I believe it's and Lows. That was great.
Speaker 1: It was right on Mulberry Street. It was a great restaurant,
Speaker 1: great food, great service. And me I stayed mostly in Brooklyn,
Speaker 1: Benson Earth. I stayed in restaurants in places that really
Speaker 1: weren't all that fancy, but I went to them before
Speaker 1: I was anything, and I kind of stayed there even
Speaker 1: though my rank or position, whatever you wanna call it, increased.
Speaker 1: But you'd like to eat, Oh, I love to eat.
Speaker 1: You know what Italian is? Everything is breaking bread, we talk,
Speaker 1: we eat, I mean in my house with my father,
Speaker 1: and you'd be at the table for an hour and
Speaker 1: a half. Not only would you eat the first meal
Speaker 1: deandi boss the past that it is that that when
Speaker 1: you were done, you're drinking a little wine you're breaking
Speaker 1: the walnuts or you know, with the and you're eating
Speaker 1: nuts fruit stuff like that, and you conversed. It was
Speaker 1: a tie family tie, united the family and keeping it together,
Speaker 1: you know, and keeping it close. The kids would go
Speaker 1: off and run off and go play in the backyard.
Speaker 1: So it was not only a mafia thing. It was
Speaker 1: an Italian thing basically. It was part of our roots.
Speaker 1: On a tougher subject. The first time you killed somebody
Speaker 1: and every time thereafter, was it always the same feeling
Speaker 1: or was there a time when you know, because a
Speaker 1: lot of it was that someone's direction. They were being
Speaker 1: ordered to do this. You were given a hit, you
Speaker 1: were given a job. Did you have to medicate yourself
Speaker 1: to get yourself in that state to do that job?
Speaker 1: Were you always in the natural state? Did you have
Speaker 1: to take a pill and take a couple of shots
Speaker 1: before you could do that? First of all, a hit
Speaker 1: to me was always in order. I never did a hit,
Speaker 1: what really without an order that you improvised, So it
Speaker 1: always came from the top. You're not allowed to do
Speaker 1: it without you know, permission anyway. But after the first
Speaker 1: hit and I was into it, I became a very
Speaker 1: good hit guy. One of the reasons is is that
Speaker 1: I was able to think. I was a thinker. I
Speaker 1: plan and plot head, I focus it. I'm gonna use
Speaker 1: the word you. I'm not talking about you, but I
Speaker 1: would focus in on you, on everything you did, every
Speaker 1: place you went, and I would disregard my family, my friends,
Speaker 1: my business, money, nothing meant nothing to me other than
Speaker 1: you and where I was going to kill you. I
Speaker 1: became very, very efficient at it, and that's how I
Speaker 1: was used by bosses so many different times, because they
Speaker 1: knew that if I got your contract, you were finished.
Speaker 1: I never took drugs. The only thing I did as
Speaker 1: a kid when I smoked pot, But I never really
Speaker 1: took drugs. I never really drank. I didn't need any
Speaker 1: of that, and I thought that would be the worst
Speaker 1: thing you could do, because that'll suck up how you think,
Speaker 1: and that's when you're gonna make a mistake. The podcast
Speaker 1: with Jim Carroll, whose idea was that, you know when
Speaker 1: I when I got out of prison, I was going
Speaker 1: to write a second book. James Carroll came to me
Speaker 1: he was gonna do a documentary about me, and he
Speaker 1: had turned around and said, oh wow, I'd love to
Speaker 1: work with you with uh this podcast. So I said,
Speaker 1: all right, and I said, how you to How would
Speaker 1: you think it will? He says, I heard you know
Speaker 1: you talk, if you could talk like that and on
Speaker 1: the podcast, he said, you'll get twenty five million hits.
Speaker 1: I started laughing. I had just got out of prison,
Speaker 1: not till long ago. I said, I know I could
Speaker 1: get ten people for sure, my ex wife, my son,
Speaker 1: my daughter. I am not gonna get twenty five million people.
Speaker 1: I think as of today we got eighty five million views. So, uh,
Speaker 1: he was right. You know, you're you're you're you're a
Speaker 1: very complicated guy. You know what one minute you taking
Speaker 1: an omerta, an oath of silence. Now you got eight
Speaker 1: five million people listening to you on a podcast. You
Speaker 1: know what I mean? If Sammy Gravano then could see
Speaker 1: Sammy Gravano now you'll be sitting there going what the
Speaker 1: fuck is this? Andson? Thank you very much? I thank
Speaker 1: your still my Thanks to Sammy Gravano and James Carroll.
Speaker 1: This episode was recorded at c DM Studios in New
Speaker 1: York City. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Zack McNeice, and
Speaker 1: Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media
Speaker 1: manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing.
Speaker 1: Is brought to you by my Heart Radio. The name
Speaker 1: Chool